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Calanen
10-19-2008, 10:11 PM
Ultraconservative Islam on rise in Mideast

http://img.breitbart.com/images/ap.gif (http://www.breitbart.com/partner.php?source=ap)http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gifOct 19 11:56 AM US/Eastern
By PAUL SCHEMM
Associated Press WriterWrite a Comment (http://comments.breitbart.com/?id=D93TLJDO0)http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gifhttp://www.breitbart.com/images/article/email.gif (http://www.breitbart.com/email.php?link=%2Farticle.php%3Fid%3DD93TLJDO0%26show_article%3D1&id=D93TLJDO0)http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gifhttp://www.breitbart.com/images/article/print.gif (http://www.breitbart.com/print.php?id=D93TLJDO0&show_article=1)http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gifhttp://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gifhttp://img.fark.net/pub/FarkItButton1_80x20.png (http://cgi.fark.com/cgi/fark/farkit.pl?h=Ultraconservative Islam on rise in Mideast&u=http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93TLJDO0)http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gifhttp://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gif http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gifCAIRO, Egypt (AP) - The Muslim call to prayer fills the halls of a Cairo computer shopping center, followed immediately by the click of locking doors as the young, bearded tech salesmen close shop and line up in rows to pray.
Business grinding to a halt for daily prayers is not unusual in conservative Saudi Arabia, (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=Saudi%20Arabia&sid=breitbart.com) but until recently it was rare in the Egyptian capital, especially in affluent commercial districts like Mohandiseen, where the mall is located.
But nearly the entire three-story mall is made up of computer stores run by Salafis, an ultraconservative Islamic movement that has grown dramatically across the Middle East (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=Middle%20East&sid=breitbart.com) in recent years.

"We all pray together," said Yasser Mandi, a salesman at the Nour el-Hoda computer store. "When we know someone who is good and prays, we invite them to open a shop here in this mall." Even the name of Mandi's store is religious, meaning "Light of Guidance."

Critics worry that the rise of Salafists in Egypt, as well as in other Arab countries such as Jordan and Lebanon, will crowd out the more liberal and tolerant version of Islam long practiced there. They also warn that the doctrine is only a few shades away from that of violent groups like al-Qaida—that it effectively preaches "Yes to jihad, just not now."

In the broad spectrum of Islamic thought, Salafism is on the extreme conservative end. Saudi Arabia's puritanical Wahhabi interpretation is considered its forerunner, and Saudi preachers on satellite TV and the Internet have been key to its Salafism's spread.

Salafist groups are gaining in numbers and influence across the Middle East. In Jordan, a Salafist was chosen as head of the old-guard opposition group, the Muslim Brotherhood. In Kuwait, Salafists were elected to parliament and are leading the resistance to any change they believe threatens traditional Islamic values.

The gains for Salafists are part of a trend of turning back to conservatism and religion after nationalism and democratic reform failed to fulfill promises to improve people's lives. Egypt has been at the forefront of change in both directions, toward liberalization in the 1950s and '60s and back to conservatism more recently.

The growth of Salafism is visible in dress. In many parts of Cairo women wear the "niqab," a veil which shows at most the eyes rather than the "hijab" scarf that merely covers the hair. The men grow their beards long and often shave off mustaches, a style said to imitate the Prophet Muhammad.

The word "salafi" in Arabic means "ancestor," harking back to a supposedly purer form of Islam said to have been practiced by Muhammad and his companions in the 7th century. Salafism preaches strict segregation of the sexes and resists any innovation in religion or adoption of Western ways seen as immoral.

"When you are filled with stress and uncertainty, black and white is very good, it's very easy to manage," said Selma Cook, an Australian convert to Islam who for more than a decade described herself as a Salafi.

"They want to make sure everything is authentic," said Cook, who has moved away from Salafist thought but still works for Hoda, a Cairo-based Salafi satellite channel.

In most of the region, Salafism has been a purely social movement calling for an ultraconservative lifestyle. Most Salafis shun politics—in fact, many argue that Islamic parties like the Muslim Brotherhood and the Palestinians' Hamas are too willing to compromise their religion for political gain.

Its preachers often glorify martyrdom and jihad—or holy war—but always with the caveat that Muslims should not launch jihad until their leaders call for it. The idea is that the decision to overturn the political order is up to God, not the average citizen.

But critics warn that Salafis could easily slide into violence. In North Africa, (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=North%20Africa&sid=breitbart.com) some already have—the Algerian Salafi Group for Call and Combat has allied itself with al-Qaida and is blamed for bombings and other attacks. Small pockets of Salafis in northern Lebanon and Gaza have also taken up weapons and formed jihadi-style groups.

"I am afraid that this Salafism may be transferred to be a jihadi Salafism, especially with the current hard socio-economic conditions in Egypt," says Khalil El-Anani, a visiting scholar at Washington's Brookings Institution.

The Salafi way contrasts with the Islam long practiced in Egypt. Here the population is religious but with a relatively liberal slant. Traditionally, Egyptian men and women mix rather freely and Islamic doctrine has been influenced by local, traditional practices and an easygoing attitude to moral foibles.

But Salafism has proved highly adaptable, appealing to Egypt's wealthy businessmen, the middle class and even the urban poor—cutting across class in an otherwise rigidly hierarchical society.

In Cairo's wealthy enclaves of Maadi and Nasr City, robed, upper-class Salafis drive BMWs to their engineering firms, while their wives stay inside large homes surrounded by servants and children.

Sara Soliman and her businessman husband, Ahmed el-Shafei, both received the best education Egypt had to offer, first at a German-run school, then at the elite American University in Cairo. But they have now chosen the Salafi path.

"We were losing our identity. Our identity is Islamic," 27-year-old Soliman said from behind an all-covering black niqab as she sat with her husband in a Maadi restaurant.

"In our (social) class, none of us are brought up to be strongly practicing," added el-Shafei, also 27, in American-accented English, a legacy of a U.S. boyhood. Now, he and his wife said, they live Islam as "a whole way of life," rather than just a set of obligations such as daily prayers and fasting during the holy month of Ramadan.

A dozen satellite TV channels, most Saudi-funded, are perhaps Salafism's most effective vehicle. They feature conservative preachers, call-in advice shows and discussion programs on proper Islamic behavior.

Cairo's many Salafist mosques are packed on Fridays. Outside Shaeriyah mosque, a bookstall featured dozens of cassettes by Mohammed Hasaan, a prolific conservative preacher who sermonizes on the necessity of jihad and the injustices inflicted on Muslims.

Alongside the cassettes, a book titled "The Sinful Behaviors of Women" displayed lipstick, playing cards, perfumes and cell phones on the cover. Another was titled "The Excesses of American Hubris."

Critics of Salafism say it has spread so quickly in part because the Egyptian and Saudi governments encouraged it as an apolitical, nonviolent alternative to hard-line jihadi groups.

These critics warn that the governments are playing with fire—that Salafism creates an environment that breeds extremism. Al-Qaida continues to try to draw Salafists into jihad, and its No. 2, the Egyptian Ayman al-Zawahri, praised Salafists in an Internet statement in April, urging them to take up arms.

"The Salafi line is not that jihad is not a good thing, it is just not a good thing right now," said Richard Gauvain, a lecturer in comparative religion at the American University in Cairo.

The Salafis' talk of eventual jihad focuses on fighting Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq, not on overthrowing pro-U.S. Arab governments denounced by al-Qaida. Most Salafi clerics preach loyalty to their countries' rulers and some sharply denounce al-Qaida.

Egypt, with Saudi help, sought to rehabilitate jailed Islamic militants, in part by providing them with Salafi books. Critics say President Hosni Mubarak's government sees the Salafists as a counterweight to the opposition Muslim Brotherhood.

The political quietism of the Salafis and their injunctions to always obey the ruler are too good an opportunity for established Arab rulers to pass up, said novelist Alaa Aswani, one of the most prominent critics of rising conservatism in Egypt.

"That was a kind of Christmas present for the dictators because now they can rule with both the army and the religion," he said.
The new wave of conservatism is not inevitable, Aswani maintains, noting that his books—including his most popular, "The Yacoubian Building"—have risque themes and condemnations of conservatives, and yet are best-sellers in Egypt.
"The battle is not over, because Egypt is too big to be fitting in this very, very little, very small vision of a religion," he said.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93TLJDO0&show_article=1

PALADIN
10-19-2008, 10:26 PM
Good...right?

Cornerstone
10-19-2008, 10:47 PM
Good...right?
No sir, this will eventually lead to internal conflict in Egypt...

The Saudis are trying to preach their interpretation of Islam in other peoples territory....

WarriorMonk
10-19-2008, 10:57 PM
what do you know, maybe the "they hate our freedoms" idea can hold a drop of water now...barely.

D4ark
10-19-2008, 10:59 PM
If u ppl dont know anything about a religion then dont criticize it

Calanen
10-19-2008, 11:52 PM
If u ppl dont know anything about a religion then dont criticize it

And who decides what and how much we know? You?

D4ark
10-20-2008, 12:02 AM
explain to me the meaning of "salafi" plz

D4ark
10-20-2008, 12:03 AM
and y do u give a damn about other nations internal affairs

Calanen
10-20-2008, 12:13 AM
explain to me the meaning of "salafi" plz

Oooh a quiz. Do I get a prize if I guess right? (Hint - most of the answer is in the article.) I'm not going to start debating the different nuances of individual sharia jurist's interpretations of Salafi, but it's a Sunni movement that believes that the Islamic world has failed their faith in the last few hundred years and needs to get back to the basics or pure Islam instead of any modern versions. Salafi - righteous ancestors or something like that - pious ancestors? pure ancestors? Something like that - everyone should wear robes, get back jack to fundamentalist Islam and have some jihad baby!'

Except, unless any media ask about jihad, and then its 'Only jihad for a really really good reason in self-defence.'

Religious fascism might be another name for it.

And as for 'internal affairs' of Islamic states, I'm concerned because they have a habit of not staying 'internal' for very long.

D4ark
10-20-2008, 12:17 AM
Yes we have failed our faith but there are no "modern" versions of islam

Something like that - everyone should wear robes, get back jack to fundamentalist Islam and have some jihad baby!'

and thats just **** wat do u think jihad is anyway?

Calanen
10-20-2008, 12:20 AM
Yes we have failed our faith but there are no "modern" versions of islam

Isn't Turkish secularism a modern version of Islamic life?

D4ark
10-20-2008, 12:21 AM
isn't turkish secularism a modern version of islamic life?
nnnoooooooooo

D4ark
10-20-2008, 12:22 AM
they wanna be secular fine but hey also practise islam with no changes and thats the best thing

Calanen
10-20-2008, 12:30 AM
nnnoooooooooo

Ok, that's your view. Whether it is 'Islam' or not to live the way people are living, its not the way the Salafis say they have to live. And whether that means the Islam is tolerant and liberal, or the people who practice it are, is probably just semantics. The person who might be described as liberal and tolerant, may firmly believe that they are living Islam properly, while Salafis would say they are not, and probably vice versa.

Salafis would say there can be no secular government, because Allah's law is the only law and the only rule. Turks might disagree.

In terms of 'modern' Islam - there have to be some things about it that are going to be 'modernised' - I doubt even the most real diehards would say you can still rape your slaves, but maybe I'm wrong - you tell me.

In terms of what jihad is - while it can mean a number of things - it is predominantely referred to within the hadith and the koran as referring to warfare, against unbelievers - dar al Harb, dar al Islam...I know the Al Taqiyaa is that it really means the 'inner spiritual struggle to eat more vegetables with dinner and lower my cholesterol' for example, but we all know what it really means, and what it means is set out in hundreds of verses in the hadith. And its not about inner spiritual struggles.

And its not about inner spiritual struggles when the Taliban and AQ, and other Islamic nutjobs talk about jihad either.

But bat on - most leftie westerners are quite happy to believe that jihad means all sorts of other irrelevancies. I'm sure some apologist will pipe up now to say that Jihad actually means intense meditation.

D4ark
10-20-2008, 12:38 AM
There hasnt been an islamic government since 7-900 years yes allah's law is the only law ubt no turk would say that he doesent belive in god(allah/god same)slavery has been abolished and there were very few slaves in islamic societies comparing to others at the time.And jihad is basically a struggle against what u believe is injustice or something that u are fighting against(that includes going on a diet)but ARMED jihad is only allowed under EXXTREEEME circumstances

XShipRider
10-20-2008, 05:13 AM
If u ppl dont know anything about a religion then dont criticize it

Criticize a religion in ignorance? No.

Though I am suspicious when a government, sitting monarch in this case, openly promotes one religious faction over another. Eventually some hard feelings are felt which give rise to conflict.

What happens when an anti-Salafist takes power? Will there be new decrees, edicts and the like to right perceived wrongs?

P.S. What was the point of posting this article if not for comment?

WarDancer
10-20-2008, 01:09 PM
On the rise? I thought it was already there!

WarDancer
10-20-2008, 01:13 PM
ARMED jihad is only allowed under EXXTREEEME circumstances

The problem is that "EXXTREEEME" circumstances apparantly has a VERY low thresh hold, i.e; cartoons, books,

seraosha
10-20-2008, 01:19 PM
Calanen is going to have fun with this thread.

*grabs popcorn*

Weasel
10-20-2008, 01:20 PM
Mohammed land.

Lazy Lob
10-20-2008, 01:26 PM
And jihad is basically a struggle against what u believe is injustice or something that u are fighting against(that includes going on a diet)but ARMED jihad is only allowed under EXXTREEEME circumstances

What happens if you're a wacko c*nt and you believe that Tinkerbell should be in a latex burka? Are you allowed to lay it on thick on the rest of society coz it's yer private yeehad?

Calanen
10-20-2008, 05:10 PM
There hasnt been an islamic government since 7-900 years

If you mean one headed by a Caliph, then no. But for most Westerners, there are loads of Islamic governments. I guess that Salafis would say they are not Islamic enough.


yes allah's law is the only law ubt no turk would say that he doesent belive in god(allah/god same)

Well some might. But not because of secularism, I think you are meaning.


slavery has been abolished and there were very few slaves in islamic societies comparing to others at the time.

I am not saying we can take the moral highground on slavery, but at least in the time of Mohammed, there were loads of slaves.



And jihad is basically a struggle against what u believe is injustice or something that u are fighting against(that includes going on a diet)


It may mean that, but it is Al Taqiyya to say that is what it usually means. It usually means the fight against unbelievers through warfare.




but ARMED jihad is only allowed under EXXTREEEME circumstances


Maybe according to you. Not according to a lot of other people at the moment. And not according to many Islamic scholars who preach about the need for jihad against the infidel.

There is also another type of jihad - the stealth jihad - which is designed to destroy the west from within, without armed struggle (at least initially) by weakening its beliefs, values and freedoms. That is far more of a threat than the fighting jihad.

tea drinker
10-22-2008, 06:13 AM
I am not saying we can take the moral highground on slavery, but at least in the time of Mohammed, there were loads of slaves.

Why not? in the end of the 19th century there were "islamic" pirates capturing christians from ships and coastal areas for slavery in north africa, and for breeding experiments. Even Irish were taken from coastal areas.
Edit : I think we were excluded from breeding programs p-)



There is also another type of jihad - the stealth jihad - which is designed to destroy the west from within, without armed struggle (at least initially) by weakening its beliefs, values and freedoms. That is far more of a threat than the fighting jihad.
Yeah, and this appeals particularly to secularists who are against christian faiths only! The creation of morality free zones IMHO are aggressive secularists goal .... these are easily conquered by a new "answer" to matrialism and selfism.

Calanen
10-24-2008, 04:22 AM
Why not? in the end of the 19th century there were "islamic" pirates capturing christians from ships and coastal areas for slavery in north africa, and for breeding experiments. Even Irish were taken from coastal areas.
Edit : I think we were excluded from breeding programs p-)


Cant say I know much about that. I do know that the Barbary Pirates, who were Muslims attacked US shipping and took American sailors as slaves. The Marine Fight song - the shores of Tripoli - comes from these events, because the USMC went and smashed the Muslim pirates where they lived, after the US first spent millions in ransom money.



Yeah, and this appeals particularly to secularists who are against christian faiths only! The creation of morality free zones IMHO are aggressive secularists goal .... these are easily conquered by a new "answer" to matrialism and selfism.



Hmm - I'm not sure what you mean here. I will say what I think about this.

There has been an Unholy Alliance between the more extreme left and Islam. Why is hard to fathom, it is perhaps because both are enemies of the Western world, so my enemy's enemy is my friend. There is also the theory that with the USSR gone, they need something powerful to latch onto.

Whatever the reason, the extreme left have become apologists for the worst human rights abuses perpetrated in the name of Islam - including horrendous treatment of women. Even feminist authors, have come out in favour of Islam, seeing wearing burquas as somehow protecting and helping women. (Yeah, what if they DONT want to wear a burqua Virginia Wolf? Is it fine that they might die for that reason? How about women wear whatever they want to - how's that for an insane notion?)

In terms of extreme secularists can be annoying, their influence is part of the 'Hate Yourself Culture' that is so trendy around in the West, ie, get rid of Christmas, get rid of local history, raise all other cultures on a pedastal as somehow unique, exotic, and 'better' than your own. That is one of the reasons that we have no cojones to stand up to the unreasonable demands Islam constantly makes of the West, - why stand up for your own culture when it is so objectively 'bad' and you are taught it is bad from the earliest age.

The rise of Salafi Islam is because they have a credible case of being the true and correct Islam, based on the teachings and writings of the faith - including jihad against infidels. This makes a nonsense of the claim that the cry for jihad is just done by 'misunderstanders' of Islam.

-Church-
10-24-2008, 04:42 AM
Ultraconservative Islam on Rise in the Middle-East ? Who knew...

Dr_Fünke
10-24-2008, 04:52 AM
Yeah, and this appeals particularly to secularists who are against christian faiths only!

What?

Secularism is not about favoring one theism over another.


The creation of morality free zones
Country's where a secularist mindset is more prevalent are more moral than their religious counterparts.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

The Balkan
10-24-2008, 05:13 AM
On the rise? I thought it was already there!

Exactly what I thought when I saw thread title rofl

Dr_Fünke
10-24-2008, 05:17 AM
There has been an Unholy Alliance between the more extreme left and Islam. Why is hard to fathom, it is perhaps because both are enemies of the Western world, so my enemy's enemy is my friend. There is also the theory that with the USSR gone, they need something powerful to latch onto.

Who upped the funding for the muj in afghanistan during the soviet war? =Right wing government

Who is currently funding Sunni leaders in Iraq?
=Right wing government

Who is currently supporting Baluchi tribes in Iran?
=Right wing government

Who has an exclusive family relationship with the house of Saud?
=Ring wing government

but let's not bring facts into this, it's all just 'the left'


Whatever the reason, the extreme left have become apologists for the worst human rights abuses perpetrated in the name of Islam - including horrendous treatment of women. your apologetic comments on christianity & judaism are equally as disturbing


the 'Hate Yourself Culture'the what?

Calanen
10-24-2008, 07:44 AM
Who upped the funding for the muj in afghanistan during the soviet war? =Right wing government

Who is currently funding Sunni leaders in Iraq?
=Right wing government

Who is currently supporting Baluchi tribes in Iran?
=Right wing government

Who has an exclusive family relationship with the house of Saud?
=Ring wing government

but let's not bring facts into this, it's all just 'the left'


You are talking about something completely different. Sunni tribes arent part of the 'Hate Yourself Culture', or trying to Islamify the West. The Left covers up the excesses of Islam at every turn in the West, feminist authors are curiously silent or even praise Islam. Honour killings are covered up with cries of racism if it is noticed. The massive increase in rapes by islamic immigrants is covered up or ignored or explained away.

You mostly just troll my threads, but I am going to give you another chance and speak to you like you are a civilised human being. But if you go berserk again like you are on 4Chan, this will be the last time I will bother.

The funding of the Afghans against the USSR was a mistake, we see that in hindsight now. The threat of Islam was perceived as far less dangerous than the USSR. Maybe if we had our time over, we would do things differently.

Funding Sunni tribes or the Afghan governments, or anywhere else is fine. Islam remaining in Islamic countries mostly poses no problems for us. It is only the imperative of jihad against unbelievers inherent in Islam that makes it incredibly dangerous to have in the presence of signficant numbers of unbelievers, that is, the West.

Because Islam does not tolerate multiculturalism. It doesnt tolerate constitutions. Or freedom of religion. Or equal rights for women. It tolerates nothing else except sharia law, and commands all muslim to fight and die to ensure Islamic law rules and that sharia is imposed.

So while you are extending 'religious freedom' to people who believe such things, they are planning your extermination. And all of this is right there for you to read if you bothered to do it, and is being preached daily in mosques, put together in DVDs, pamphlets and books. But whenver it is noticed, that is racism and hate crimes, it is covered up by the Left, and then its business as usual for the tiny minority of extremists to continue to plan our destruction.

As for Saudi Arabia, the US has a schizophrenic relationship with them. The US government is in my view the only government that knows what is really going on with Islam, but has to play this double act of pretending that it just some mindless terrorists doing random things, instead of people following the tenets of Islam which say jihad and war against the infidels. The US relies on Saudi Arabia to denominate oil in US dollars, and the US would be destroyed if that changed.


your apologetic comments on christianity & judaism are equally as disturbing

When there is a Christian AQ, or a Jewish AQ - I'll worry about them. Until then, the theory of how equally bad other religious extremists are to Islamic extremists, is not nearly as bad as the practical examples of what Islamic terorrists do, which are there by the thousands to see day after day.

How many more, tiny minority of misunderstanders in Spain, Italy, Germany, the USA, Australia, France, New Zealand, Belgium, Germany, will have to be arrested, charged and convicted for us to start realising, that these are not just a tiny group of people. The Weathermen were a few nutbags - this is a worldwide jihad - and its coming for the West.

And the West isnt ready - it is still too busy hating itself - because that's trendy.

Dr_Fünke
10-26-2008, 07:41 AM
You are talking about something completely different.

obviously.

when the left does it, it's collusion with the enemy. When the right does it
, it doesn't count/it's different....


The massive increase in rapes by islamic immigrants is covered up or ignored or explained awayif it's been covered up in the west then I'd be curious as to how do you know about it?


Sunni tribes arent part of the 'Hate Yourself Culture', or trying to Islamify the West. for someone critical of Islam, you seem to have no problem in trusting that the funding of muslim groups in countries where anti-western sentitment could not be higher, is not going to come back to bite us in the arse at a later date.


The funding of the Afghans against the USSR was a mistake, we see that in hindsight now. The threat of Islam was perceived as far less dangerous than the USSR. Maybe if we had our time over, we would do things differently.........

Funding Sunni tribes or the Afghan governments, or anywhere else is fine.you're full of contradictions/hypocritical statements

you condemn the funding of the muj in afghanistan, yet condone the funding of sunni's leaders and mek in Iraq and various groups in Iran who have shared the same madrasses as AQ and the taliban??? . In 20 years time when another plane hits a building are you going to look back and say 'it was a mistake, we see that in hindsight now' ?

or are you hoping that in the future we are going to escape blowback from foreign policy blunders by screening people for islam at the airport and diverting 90% of budget to border security?

call me nuts but i think it would be much cheaper and easier to have nothing to do with these groups rather than possibly have to deal with them somewhere down the track after we helped empower them with training and cash


Islam remaining in Islamic countries mostly poses no problems for us.didn't you post something about the barbary wars and how Islam was a problem then? that was a problem which didn't involve muslims in western countries...



It is only the imperative of jihad against unbelievers inherent in Islam that makes it incredibly dangerous to have in the presence of signficant numbers of unbelievers, that is, the West Because Islam does not tolerate multiculturalism. It doesnt tolerate constitutions. Or freedom of religion. Or equal rights for women. It tolerates nothing else except sharia law, and commands all muslim to fight and die to ensure Islamic law rules and that sharia is imposedneither does christianity or judaism, yet strangely enough jews and christians have found a way to practice their religion within the boundaries of modern civil society, same with many muslims. or are they all fundamentalists until proven otherwise? you'd have to apply that to every other religious person if you're using scripture as the basis for your reasoning


So while you are extending 'religious freedom' to people who believe such things am I?

i didn't sanction the support and funneling of cash to islamic groups which could turn on us


As for Saudi Arabia, the US has a schizophrenic relationship with them. The US government is in my view the only government that knows what is really going on with Islam, but has to play this double act of pretending that it just some mindless terrorists doing random things, instead of people following the tenets of Islam which say jihad and war against the infidels. The US relies on Saudi Arabia to denominate oil in US dollars, and the US would be destroyed if that changed.perhaps if you had a little objectivity you might even condemn their relationship with the Saudi's....

if the Bush family were in the domain of 'the left' it would be a different story I imagine..



When there is a Christian AQ, or a Jewish AQ - I'll worry about them. Until then, the theory of how equally bad other religious extremists are to Islamic extremists, is not nearly as bad as the practical examples of what Islamic terorrists do, which are there by the thousands to see day after day.It doesn't bother you that the policies which are setting us up for more terrorism are made by individuals who claim to be guided into these decisions by their version of God?

the flames of islamic fundamentalism are being fanned jewish and christian fundamentalism and vice versa. generally speaking areligous/athiest types want their government not to take the side of any of those religions yet you seem to be exception to the rule?

'not nearly as bad' ..are you referring to the body count? If so, you're way off


this is a worldwide jihad - and its coming for the West.
do you think they want to attack the world, or just the countries that are involved in deeply unpopular wars and ongoing religious conflicts? the countries that have been attacked so far suggest the latter is true

or do they hate us just because we happen to be westerners?



And the West isnt ready - it is still too busy hating itself - because that's trendy.i don't know what this 'west hating itself' thing is all about, perhaps you could elaborate

all I see is:

-individuals who think we can behave anyway we want in the middle east and pretend we aren't playing a part in exacerbating terrorism, either because they are ignorant of history&world affairs or because they completely blinded by a very pathetic brand of nationalistic pride which tells them that their government could never/has never done wrong

-people who have enough brain matter to see that the best way to reduce the threat is to start with a decent foreign policy. the policies that are unlawful/unethical by our own standards are the same ones that have radicalized muslims the most so don't bother with the whole 'why should we appease muslims thing' [is this the kind of thing you consider to be trendy self-hate?] if western governments practiced what they preached about democracy and rights we would have had a more moderate islam by now