Nimetz Exposed: US-FYROM ‘pact’ Upsets Diplomats

[achilles]

Athens yesterday expressed displeasure in the wake of allegations that a confidential US government document indicates secret cooperation between Skopje and Washington on the Macedonia name dispute.

The only negotiations permitted on the name issue are those being mediated by United Nations representative Matthew Nimetz, Greece’s Foreign Ministry spokes-man Giorgos Koumoutsakos said in reaction to a report in yesterday’s Ethnos exposing the alleged cooperation.

The newspaper printed extracts from the document suggesting that Greece should be bypassed on the the issue of a supposed Macedonian identity and language. “The language and nationality would be called ‘Macedonian’ but this could be handled tacitly perhaps as an annex... or in some other internal UN document not subject to Greek review/approval,” the text reads.

The document was reportedly sent from the US Embassy in Skopje to the US State Department in July, well before Nimetz made his proposal to envoys from Athens and Skopje earlier this month.

Nimetz proposed that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) be renamed the “Republic of Northern Macedonia.” According to sources, he also raised the issue of a supposed Macedonian language and identity, provoking the anger of Greece, which says it is groundless and has no place in the name talks.

Neither side has provided any official response to the proposal yet, with both Athens and Skopje insisting that it should be subject to “several changes.”

Reacting to the report yesterday, Koumoutsakos did not directly comment on any alleged cooperation between the USA and FYROM on the Macedonia name issue but reiterated Greece’s stance “which remains clear – a composite name with a geographical determination.”
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100010_20/10/2008_101462

What an impartial diplomatic procedure....That Nimetz has been a US puppet all along is nothing new. Some solid proof was needed, and it seems that "Ethnos" did a pretty good job with the classified US embassy document that leaked.

[Snoshi]

Any more sources then "classified" documents?

[achilles]

Any more sources then "classified" documents?

Until the US embassy denies those allegations and falsifies the authenticity of that document, this is the most solid proof you'll ever get

[justasoldier]

Huh so now Athens showing that it can spy on US too....something must of boosted Athens selfconfidence..

[Paya]

The US has had it's way in the Balkans since the '90s. Despite it's influence being challenged periodically by Russia, it is still the primary decision maker in the region.

I'm sad to say that Greek stance will prove to be irrelevant in the final outcome of the naming dispute.

[LineDoggie]

Hey Sparky, NIMITZ was an Admiral in WW2( as in Chester Nimitz Namesake of the USS Nimitz), Nimetz is entirely someone else.:roll:

[achilles]

The US has had it's way in the Balkans since the '90s. Despite it's influence being challenged periodically by Russia, it is still the primary decision maker in the region.

I'm sad to say that Greek stance will prove to be irrelevant in the final outcome of the naming dispute.

How is that?

[Paya]

How is that?
I'm pretty sure that the Greeks will eventually be pressured to accept FYROM membership of both NATO and EU, and that the "compromise" about the name of the country will be anything but compromise.

[Ordie]

What do the Macedonians think?

[achilles]

I'm pretty sure that the Greeks will eventually be pressured to accept FYROM membership of both NATO and EU, and that the "compromise" about the name of the country will be anything but compromise.

Perhaps you could elaborate on why this will be the case, otherwise i'm afraid all you posted was an empty statement.

[justasoldier]

What do the Macedonians think?

What should we think when somebody comes and say hey change your name.And your identity.You'll be called as we like you to.We are furious.

[achilles]

What should we think when somebody comes and say hey change your name.And your identity.You'll be called as we like you to.We are furious.

We have walked through that a million times so far. Engaging in such a discussion one more time is a vicious circle and will get this thread locked.

As it has been thoroughly analyzed elsewhere, things are not as simple as you say.

[Paya]

Perhaps you could elaborate on why this will be the case, otherwise i'm afraid all you posted was an empty statement.
It's just an opinion. Or an empty statement if you prefer.

I simply think that no Balkan state has the means to stand up to the US. Greece, however, isn't just another Balkan state, so I could be (and I certainly hope I am) wrong.

[103]

Reading the title I expected at least a carrier battle group in the lakes of Ohrid ;)

[achilles]

I simply think that no Balkan state has the means to stand up to the US. Greece, however, isn't just another Balkan state, so I could be (and I certainly hope I am) wrong.

In principle i agree. The thing is that Greece mobilizes some of her EU allies (e.g. France) to counter US pressure. We are definitely counting on that and on our right to exercise veto.

[LRPV]

In principle i agree. We are definitely counting on ...our right to exercise veto.

What right of veto?

[achilles]

What right of veto?

The right to veto FYROM's entrance to NATO and the EU. We already exercised that right regarding NATO.

[Mordoror]

What do the Macedonians think?

nothing .....just wait and see the development of the issue (as during the last 15 years)

[justasoldier]

Their only argument.It is a use of force by certain means.Everything they don't like they put a veto.Like it says in the author's signature the land of veto.

Achiles it is simple.That is what athens wants.that is the root of this subject.Now you can call it as you like but the most simple explanation is Athens wants to name my country and nation as it likes to.And the answer from me and my people to Athens will be in most kindly manner.KIss my a**.If that is the price that we should pay to join the EU or NATO no thanks.We managed to live thru all these years with Athens blocking every integration process we've joined will manage to live through again.untill the world realises the real objective behind this so called problem athens has with my country.A kind of nazi one denying peoples right to name his own nation.

And spare me the history lessons.if it was all on your side you wouldn't be such a pain in the a*** bothering the whole world with your childlish games.

[justasoldier]

nothing .....just wait and see the development of the issue (as during the last 15 years)

Speak for yourself.Maybe you should visit Macedonia more often.And then speak about how Macedonians feels about it.

[Mordoror]

Speak for yourself.Maybe you should visit Macedonia more often.And then speak about how Macedonians feels about it.

already done two months ago

[Jobu]

Speak for yourself.Maybe you should visit Macedonia more often.And then speak about how Macedonians feels about it.

I'm confused. Do you mean speak to the Macedonians (Greeks) or the Skopjeans?

[justasoldier]

I'm confused. Do you mean speak to the Macedonians (Greeks) or the Skopjeans?
Now not the people from athens.The Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia.


already done two months ago

Well then you should know better than "waiting".Even if by chance the government accepts any Nimetz proposal there will be still a referendum on the issue.And like i said there is an angry people here.

[achilles]

Their only argument.It is a use of force by certain means.Everything they don't like they put a veto.Like it says in the author's signature the land of veto.

Achiles it is simple.That is what athens wants.that is the root of this subject.Now you can call it as you like but the most simple explanation is Athens wants to name my country and nation as it likes to.And the answer from me and my people to Athens will be in most kindly manner.KIss my a**.If that is the price that we should pay to join the EU or NATO no thanks.We managed to live thru all these years with Athens blocking every integration process we've joined will manage to live through again.untill the world realises the real objective behind this so called problem athens has with my country.A kind of nazi one denying peoples right to name his own nation.

And spare me the history lessons.if it was all on your side you wouldn't be such a pain in the a*** bothering the whole world with your childlish games.

Are you calling Greece a country with nazistic attitude?

You fail to understand the implications your name has for Greece. You only see the whole issue from your perspective, i.e. from the ultra nationalist perspective of your hard line politicians.

What Greece does is protecting its history, its deeply embedded macedonian history and builds a line of defense against your artificial "macedonicity", which raises preposterous irredentist and territorial claims.

That's why we propose a composite name with a geographical connotation that will clearly distinct the original Hellenic Macedonia from you. A name to be used at all levels. International and bilateral. Its so simple.

If you want to remain a backward, isolated country whose residents want to call themselves ancient Macedonians, Spartans, Athenians, Huns or Vikings, this is clearly up to you. Our red line has been drawn and wont move an inch.

[achilles]

Now not the people from athens.The Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia.

There are Greeks in areas other than Athens you know;)

[justasoldier]

What you like we dont give a damn.On your composite c*ap thing name your country as you like leave mine alone.I would like to marry Charllize Teron but .........
I am not calling my self a spartan.Or whatever.Now decide are you Macedonians or Greeks.You see multiple personality is kind of psychiatric problem.

[justasoldier]

There are Greeks in areas other than Athens you know;)
I prefer to use the term the people from athens.Like you use the term skopian.I am not from skopje you know.

[Jobu]

I prefer to use the term the people from athens.Like you use the term skopian.I am not from skopje you know.

You're not from Macedonia either otherwise you'd be Greek.

[achilles]

What you like we dont give a damn.On your composite c*ap thing name your country as you like leave mine alone.I would like to marry Charllize Teron but .........

But its going the other way around, kid. YOU are having irredentist and territorial claims against MY country and this suggests that YOU must give it up. Do you really know anything about the whole issue? Or you have settled just fine with the propaganda they've been feeding you?


I am not calling my self a spartan.Or whatever.Now decide are you Macedonians or Greeks.You see multiple personality is kind of psychiatric problem.

We dont have to make up our minds. History did that for us already. Macedonians have always been Greeks. Not all Greeks are Macedonians, yet all Macedonians are Greeks. You are self-invited guests to the whole game. We agreed that you can have your fair share of the term "Macedonia" but with A CLEAR GEOGRAPHICAL DISTINCTION. You want it all for yourselves. Name, history, irredentism, territorial claims etc. It doesnt work this way and it wont work this way.

Lets see who is actually confused, and in fact, deceived:

“We are Slavs, who came to the region in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians.”

Kiro Gligorov, first President of FYROM, 1992,

“We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about the identity of the people of our country.”

Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM’s Ambassador to Canada, 1999,


“The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimate themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.”

Denko Maleski, Foreign Minister of FYROM from 1991 to 1993.

I believe this makes it more clear, at least to outsiders following the discussion.

[Mordoror]

And like i said there is an angry people here.angry people are the one who have energy to waste

many others have something else to do that sit and brag (like for example try to find money and food and work ...) about something that if fact they will not decide

and if the government accept the Nimetz agreement (waited since 1994) do you really think that people (except a bunch of brick head nationalists, some kind of *** you can find both sides of the border) will say no just for the pleasure of saying no and will not think about the fact that the agreement will bring something positive for their every day life

PS : Jobu thank you for trolling the thread, it is already enough hot like that

[justasoldier]

angry people are the one who have energy to waste

many others have something else to do that sit and brag (like for example try to find money and food and work ...) about something that if fact they will not decide

and if the government accept the Nimetz agreement (waited since 1994) do you really think that people (except a bunch of brick head nationalists, some kind of *** you can find both sides of the border) will say no just for the pleasure of saying no and will not think about the fact that the agreement will bring something positive for their every day life



Listen dude you have France to worry about.When you'll bring your family to live here then you get the right to decide on things.Now how would you feel if i ofered you 200 000$ and named you Gonzo?I wasn't a nationalist neither will be but when some smartass decides on how am i going to live my life well let him try and come here to explain it.Face to face.Like i told you we live 17 years with this crap,and will live through again.So far 120 countries recognized us.And still counting .At the end i don't really care on how atehens people call us.The seem to have problem with each of their neighbor.But that is a psychiatric problem.

[achilles]

.... the agreement will bring something positive for their every day life...


Quoted for truth. This is the kind of mentality your leaders should've been cultivating. Unfortunately they are doing quite the opposite.

[Mordoror]

Quoted for truth. This is the kind of mentality your leaders should've been cultivating. Unfortunately they are doing quite the opposite

even if the agreement is no so in favor of Greece ?? (keeping the word Macedonia for example in the name)

[Jobu]

PS : Jobu thank you for trolling the thread, it is already enough hot like that

It's not trolling if it's true.

To any student of history Macedonia can only be part of Greece. The land of Phillip and Alexander. The northern, mountainous region of Greece with the fingers-shaped peninsula. And it has been this way for thousands of years.

[justasoldier]

But its going the other way around, kid. YOU are having irredentist and territorial claims against MY country and this suggests that YOU must give it up. Do you really know anything about the whole issue? Or you have settled just fine with the propaganda they've been feeding you?



We dont have to make up our minds. History did that for us already. Macedonians have always been Greeks. Not all Greeks are Macedonians, yet all Macedonians are Greeks. You are self-invited guests to the whole game. We agreed that you can have your fair share of the term "Macedonia" but with A CLEAR GEOGRAPHICAL DISTINCTION. You want it all for yourselves. Name, history, irredentism, territorial claims etc. It doesnt work this way and it wont work this way.

Lets see who is actually confused, and in fact, deceived:


I believe this makes it more clear, at least to outsiders following the discussion.
1.Claims?Muhahaha....and how in hell would my country put those claims in practice?Attack you?No one is feeding me.If your natioanlist brain refers to anyone who is not thinking the same way as you as a man with limited amount of IQ,keep it for yourself.I am not the one opening threads on stupid issues over the net and bugging the people with stupid comments like whos co.k is bigger.

2.Multiple personality problem.Decide on hoe you're going to call yourselves.Like i told since the history is so clear why are you whining about?Quoting comments the way you like to hear them isnt really an argument.Since is so obvious that you are the one and only divine people where the problems of convincig the people from 120 countries came from?Don't tell me its US and Bush.....

[justasoldier]

even if the agreement is no so in favor of Greece ?? (keeping the word Macedonia for example in the name)
Like i told you your failing to see the point.Even if the names is changed they are insisting to rename the identity and the language.

[justasoldier]

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.

Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310.

Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=178

Here's what DNA says.....

[Mordoror]

@Justasoldier


.When you'll bring your family to live here then you get the right to decide on thingsFirst 90 % of my family live in Macedonia so .....


.Now how would you feel if i ofered you 200 000$ and named you Gonzo?Angry of course. But you are making the things so simple. The country is surrounded by hostiles and with possibly hostiles within
Won't you prefere to make a little (very very little ) scratch in your proud and call the country Northern Macedonia rather than FYROM (what an ugly acronym still used in international relationships), be secured by NATO and have an access to EU market and funding in a hope that the average salary goes above 150 euros ??

Of course, this will be acceptable if we are not screwed by any of those institutions, so let ask for garanty
and BTW i have no lessons to take from the nowadays political class of Macedonia
Half have taken Bulgarian double nationality, the rest is working for itself not for the people interest


I wasn't a nationalist neither willbe but when some smartass decides on how am i going to live my life well let him try and come here to explain it.Face to faceOk i can understand that. But being forever on an defensive stance will not make the things go further


.Like i told you we live 17 years with this crap,and will live through againThat's why i told you that the average people will just wait the outcome. We are used to it so one year, two years more or less.


So far 120 countries recognized us.And still countingBy our constitutional name ? You are a bit optimistic...look the last reports of my lovely french president. What is not printed on paper is easilly lost


At the end i don't really care on how atehens people call us.That's the way most people should react. In either case, as i told you, it will be decided not by you or me, not even by our government or Greek government but certainly by someone else. Why then spend time and nerves


Like i told you your failing to see the point.Even if the names is changed they are insisting to rename the identity and the language.

that's the issue. A matter of trust; And i understand the worries of Macedonians on that. The greeks have to give warranties that they will not ask something else

PS :you shouldn't have quoted the DNA study, it is false and unscientific (and i know it very well, this is my area of activity)

[justasoldier]

To deny the African origin of Grecian civilization the Eurocentrists attack Martin Bernal’s book: Black Athena. This book has nothing to do with Afrocentrism. In the two volumes published thus far, Bernal maintains that Semites from Phoenicia and the Semitic Hyksos speaking rulers of Egypt, took civilization to Greece, not Black Africans.

J.A. Rogers in *** and Race, Parker, Diop and DuBois on the other hand, are Afrocentric scholars. These scholars have reviewed the writings of the classical authors, the anthropological, linguistic and historical evidence to reach the conclusion that the ancient Greeks were blacks and that the European Greeks learned the liberal arts and sciences from their “black ancestors” who first settled Greece and the Egyptians.

According to the Olympian Creation Myth the earliest groups to appear on earth were the Libyco-Thracians .The Libyans were Proto-Saharans, as were the original Thracians. Some Thracians were descendants of the Ku****e and Egyptian troops established at Trace, by Sesostris (Thutmose III or Ramses II), when he conquered Asia and Europe.(Diop 1991; Winters 1983a,1984b,1985a)

Many of the so-called Greek myths are in reality historical texts which show the ancient lifestyle of the pre-Aryans in Greece and the transition from Pelasgian matriarchy to Greek-Aryan patriarchy. The term Amazon was often used by the Aryans to denote matriarchal societies living on the Black Sea. The battle between Thesus and the Amazons, led by Queen Melanippe, records the conflicts between the ancient Aryan-Greeks and the Libyans settled around the Black Sea.

Dr. Lefkowitz (1992) and Snowden (1992,1976) perpetuate the myth that the only blacks in ancient Europe were slaves or mercenaries. This is false the Greek historical works make it clear that many ancient settlers of the Aegean came from Africa , especially the Garamantes and Pelasgians. G. W. Parker wrote that: “I need not go into details concerning the ethnical relations of the Romans, since they, too are Mediterranean and are closely related to the same African confederation of races …[situated in Greece]. Aeneas, their mythical founder of Troy. The Aenead, like the Illiad, and Odyssey and all other of the world’s great epics, is the poetic story dealing with African people”. The heroes of these tales used long shields, the characteristic shields of the Indo-European speaking Greeks were round.

The Eurocentrists attempt to prove there was “considerable cultural and linguistic continuity from the twelfth century to the eight century BC” ,in the Aegean . Yet there is no way it can be proven that Indo-European Greeks have always been in Greece. This view on the continuity between the Linear B Greeks and later Greeks held by Lefkowitz is disputed by Hopper who noted that ” after all, so much which characterizes Minoan Crete seems wholly alien to later Greece, despite the efforts of scholars to detect ‘continuity’ ” .

Original: The Black Greeks


© 2005 Centre for Byzantine, Ottoman and Modern Greek Studies, University of Birmingham
Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies Vol. 29 No. 2 (2005) 113–146

Florin Curta
University of Florida

Much has been made of the presence or absence of seventh- and eighth-century coins on several sites in Greece, primarily in Athens and Corinth. Kenneth Setton and Peter Charanis have paved the way for a cultural-historical interpretation of coin finds, but a thorough comparison of both single and hoard finds from Greece with others from the Balkans suggests a very different interpretation. Instead of signalising decline, lowdenomination coins, especially from Athens, may point to local markets of low-value commodities, such as food, as well as to the permanent presence of the fleet.

Almost half a century ago, three polemical articles appeared in Speculum on seventhcentury Corinth. Apparently, the debate opposing Peter Charanis to Kenneth Setton was about an obscure episode, the alleged conquest of Corinth by a group of nomads known to Byzantine sources as Onogurs.1

In fact, at stake was more than just the interpretation of a confusing passage in a late source, namely a letter of Isidore, the fifteenth-century metropolitan of Kiev, who had allegedly preserved ‘a reminiscence of a Peloponnesian tradition’.2

In his first article, Setton reacted against Charanis’s earlier work,3 in which he had treated the Chronicle of Monemvasia, one of the most controversial sources for the early medieval history of Greece, as ‘absolutely trustworthy’. According to Setton, the Chronicle was no more than ‘a medley of some fact and some fiction’ that historians should use ‘with caution’.4

Charanis had taken the Chronicle at face value. By contrast, Setton believed it was ludicrous to claim that the Peloponnese had remained under Avar-Slavic domination for 218 years. According to him, ‘much of the Slavonisation of the Balkans and of Greece’ was the result of peaceful settlement: ‘unknown numbers of Slavs’ came ‘at unknown times and under unknown circumstances’. There was, however, no such thing as a Slavic conquest of Greece. ‘The Slavs came, but they did not conquer.’5

In response, Charanis wrote of Slavic domination and great numbers of settlers coming to Greece during the entire period from ‘just before the beginning of Maurice’s reign [582–602] to the early years of the reign of Heraclius [610–41]’.6 He attacked the ‘official version of the Slavic problem in Greece’ espoused by Stilpon Kyriakides: ‘no Greek scholar, writing in Greece, has ever acknowledged that Slavs settled in Greece during the sixth century’.7

http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/blackgreeks_02.jpg

At a first glimpse, the Setton-Charanis debate was nothing new. Many of the arguments used by both sides were almost a century old.
The Chronicle of Monemvasia was first used as a primary source for the history of the Slavs in Greece by Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer, the German journalist who claimed that the modern Greeks were descendants not of ancient Greeks (TRUE OR FALSE?), but of Slavs and Albanians whose ancestors had settled in Greece during the Middle Ages and had learned to speak Greek from the Byzantine authorities.8
http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/blackgreeks_01.jpg

In fact, Setton went as far as to claim that although Charanis seemed to hold Fallmerayer up to opprobrium, his views were not ‘unlike those entertained by Fallmerayer more than a century ago’.9

In 1952, comparing one’s work with that of Fallmerayer was a serious charge. In Greece (HE, HE, WHY?), Fallmerayer had been demonised to the point that, although actually an enemy of Russia, he came to be regarded as a Panslavist and as an agent of the tsar.10

Long before its first translation into Greek, Fallmerayer’s work was stigmatised as ‘anti-Greek’.11
http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/blackgreeks_04.jpg

During and after the Civil War, the ‘Slavs’ became the national enemy. By 1950, those embracing the ideology of the right saw their political rivals as the embodiment of all that was anti-national, Communist, and Slavic. A strong link was established between national identity and political orientation, as the Civil War and the subsequent defeat of the left-wing movement turned Slav Macedonians into the


Sudetens of Greece.12
http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/blackgreeks_03.jpg

To hold Fallmerayeran views was thus a crimen laesae maiestatis. Dionysios A. Zakythinos, the author of the first monograph on medieval Slavs in Greece, wrote of the Dark Ages separating Antiquity from the Middle Ages as an era of decline and ruin brought by Slavic invaders.13

Some insisted on the beneficial Byzantine influence that forced the Slavs to abandon their nomadic life of bandits.14


http://books.google.com/books?id=zzE...bnail#PPR10,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=zzEPfGYudxMC&dq=black+athena&pg=PP1&ots=u41RtiZzDA&sig=jYvygGJDJ-egRl4EM0ikTOlJA08&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3DBlack%2BAthena&sa=X&oi=print&ct=book-thumbnail&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR10,M1)

[justasoldier]

First 90 % of my family live in Macedonia so .....My entire family lives here.Including me.This is my country and this is where i plan to live.As for you i understand you live in another country and is much easier to look from aside.I did not bust my ass for 6 months in Afganistan just for an spoiled country to ruin our membership in NATO because of their xhenophobie.


PS :you shouldn't have quoted the DNA study, it is false and unscientific (and i know it very well, this is my area of activity)

I would be happy to see your research.For me what achiles posted is false and misinterpeted.Let the others judge what is false or true.And please stop helping on the issue.Come join a Macedonian forum and you'll get reactions from people who actually live here.PM me i'll be happy to provide you with links of forums.Unlike our southern neighbores people from outside Macedonia are welcome to join.

[Peris]

http://books.google.com/books?id=zzE...bnail#PPR10,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=zzEPfGYudxMC&dq=black+athena&pg=PP1&ots=u41RtiZzDA&sig=jYvygGJDJ-egRl4EM0ikTOlJA08&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3DBlack%2BAthena&sa=X&oi=print&ct=book-thumbnail&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR10,M1)



more from Jewish American professor Mary Lefkowitz:


Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History

Why I wrote the book. In the fall of 1991 I was asked to write a review-article for The New Republic about Martin Bernal's Black Athena and its relation to the Afrocentrist movement. The assignment literally changed my life. Once I began to work on the article I realized that here was a subject that needed all the attention, and more, that I could give to it. Although I had been completely unaware of it, there was in existence a whole literature that denied that the ancient Greeks were the inventors of democracy, philosophy, and science. There were books in circulation that claimed that Socrates and Cleopatra were of African descent, and that Greek philosophy had actually been stolen from Egypt. Not only were these books being read and widely distributed; some of these ideas were being taught in schools and even in universities.


After Dr. ben-Jochannan made these same assertions once again in his lecture, I asked him during the question period why he said that Aristotle had come to Egypt with Alexander, and had stolen his philosophy from the Library at Alexandria, when that Library had only been built after his death. Dr. ben-Jochannan was unable to answer the question, and said that he resented the tone of the inquiry. Several students came up to me after the lecture and accused me of racism, suggesting that I had been brainwashed by white historians. But others stayed to hear me out, and I assured Dr. ben-Jochannan that I simply wanted to know what his evidence was: so far as I knew, and I had studied the subject, Aristotle never went to Egypt, and while the date of the Library of Alexandria is not known precisely, it was certainly only built some years after the city was founded, which was after both Aristotle's and Alexander's deaths.

http://www.wellesley.edu/CS/Mary/contents.html

[Peris]

Achilles i was thinking to post the same subject yestarday but i didn't. we did knew from the start how the game is fixed. Now the question is( if the document is genuine) WHO leaked it?

[justasoldier]

" Were the Macedonians Greek? The question is the most contentious in Macedonian historiography. In contemporary Balkan politics, conflicting claims to the territory of ancient Macedonia have made the question of the "greekness" of the ancient Macedonians a burning issue. Modern nationalists may be confident of their answers, but contemporary ideology has little relevance to antiquity.


...Language alone, however, does not determine ethnic identity. Equally important are shared culture, tradition, and values, and it is clear that in antiquity neither Macedonians nor Greeks viewed the Macedonains to be Greek. Greeks viewed Macedonains as barbarians like their Thracian and Illyrian neighbors. An exception was made only for the members of the rulling Argead house, who claim to be descendants of imigrants from Argos.


Although Macedonian kings encouraged the Hellenization of the Macedonian nobility, Macedonian and Greek culture had little in common. While most people in Greece lived by agriculture, cities were the core of what was most distincive in Greek civilization. Before the reign of Philip II, however, city life was limited to a few Greek colonies on the coast of the Gulf of Therma. The few large settlements in the interior of Macedon, such as Aegae and Pella, were dynastic centers with limite civic institutions. Most Macedonians were farmers or semi-nomadic pastoralists living in scattered villages and owning allegience to local Macedonian aristocrats.


Other differences divided the two cultures as well such as the poligamy of the Macedonian kings, the Macedonians' love of unmixed wine, and their aristocrats' preference for tumulus burials instead of simple cermation or internment. Indeed the lifestyle of the Macedonian nobility had more in common with that of Homeric heroes than with that of Classical Greeks. War and hunting was central to the life of the Macedonian noble. ..."


(Sarah B. Pomeroy, at. Al., "Ancient Greece, Political, Social, and Cultural History," Second Edition, New York and Oxford, Oxford University Press, 2008)

yet another source this time athens one.

[Raven_gr]

justasoldier I am really trying to comprehend what you are trying to prove with your posts. You attack the very fabric of Greek ethnicity, however I haven't seen any proof of a macedonian ethnicity that is not identical and part of the Greek culture. Come to Pella, Dion, Aiges, Vergina and any other part of Macedonia, read the inscriptions, visit a Museum and then make up your opinion. It is not that far from Skopje.

[achilles]

yet another source this time athens one.

Kid, please stop the propaganda flow. It's been beaten to death here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=131800&highlight=macedonian+dummies

Read it...and wheep

On edit: you will find my exact opinion on the issue, my arguments and my sources. No need to start all over again.

[LineDoggie]

I prefer to use the term the people from athens.Like you use the term skopian.I am not from skopje you know.

Dude, just stay calm, all he's trying to do is stir Sh It hoping for you to lose your cool.

[achilles]

Dude, just stay calm, all he's trying to do is stir Sh It hoping for you to lose your cool.

Thanks for you input. Now buzz off

[achilles]

Achilles i was thinking to post the same subject yestarday but i didn't. we did knew from the start how the game is fixed. Now the question is( if the document is genuine) WHO leaked it?

Thats a good question. I wouldnt bet on ΕΥΠ, thoughp-)

[justasoldier]

Kid, please stop the propaganda flow. It's been beaten to death here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=131800&highlight=macedonian+dummies

Read it...and wheep

On edit: you will find my exact opinion on the issue, my arguments and my sources. No need to start all over again.

I care not of your stupid threads.Like i said you and your compromise can kiss my a**.Yes we have a pact.We have pact with Turkey too.We are a sovereign state.It is not that we are afraid from you.The only advantage you have is your NATO and EU membership(or to be precise parasite membership since you contribute nothing).Keep your nazi facts and remarks to yourself.As i said we survived all this years with this bull*hit we'll live through again.Since you're not the country you imagine you are.Don't you have another strike against the government or something to do?

[Husar-T]

yet another source this time athens one.

And what exactly does that prove?

That the ancient Macedonians weren't fully fledged Hellenes before Alexanders reign is accepted by most historians, but what you don't show is that they dissapeared from history as a distinct ethnicity by the times of the Roman conquest.

To claim that you are some sort of descendants of the ancient Macedonians is ridiculous

There is no distinct Macedonian people since the Romans and all the way to 1945.

[achilles]

I care not of your stupid threads.Like i said you and your compromise can kiss my a**.

You've said that more than once. That should normally grand you a brief vacation from mp.net


Yes we have a pact.We have pact with Turkey too.

Well done. Keep up the good work:lol:


We are a sovereign state.

Noone said you arent.


It is not that we are afraid from you.

Noone wants you to be afraid.



The only advantage you have is your NATO and EU membership(or to be precise parasite membership since you contribute nothing).

Well, you sure got a point there. I will agree that our presence in the EU has been parasitical up to extent, at the expense of European taxpayers. This certainly does not make me proud.



Keep your nazi facts and remarks to yourself.

You use the word "nazi" quite a lot. That, again, should send you on vacation. I suppose you have special treatment for being <18, or something...



As i said we survived all this years with this bull*hit we'll live through again.Since you're not the country you imagine you are.Don't you have another strike against the government or something to do?

Hell yeah! No train, no metro, no buses not fuking nothing tomorrow!!! Welcome to Athens baby!!woot


On a more serious note, i trully believe that this thread is done with you.
Enjoy the rest of your evening doing your homework. p-)

[achilles]

On topic: this is part of the document:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Isokratis/usembassydoc.jpg

[Peris]

is not that far from Skopje.


in km no it's not that far. But in terms of civilization, good manners and culture is some light years away:)

[justasoldier]

Anxiety is a common thing in puberty.That is why i don't mind your comments.Don't worry you'll have your pubic hair one day.

Oh yes and read it carefully and cry about it.

[Peris]

Anxiety is a common thing in puberty.That is why i don't mind your comments.Don't worry you'll have your pubic hair one day.

Oh yes and read it carefully and cry about it.


honestly kid, how old are you?:roll:

[alvarhanso]

I think we should give the Greeks a break. They are starting to complain that WE are breaking their human rights. Now... that's a first, don't you think. :-D

http://hellenichumanrights.wordpress.com/

"As you may know, the Skopje government abuses Hellenic human rights. We urge you all to mobilize your constituents to attend a national demonstration on Monday, October 27th at 12:00 noon to be held at United States Mission to the UN. Located at 140 East 45th Street (between Third and Lexington Avenues)
It is imperative that we send a clear and powerful message that we oppose Skopje’s cultural genocide program, its support for global terrorism, threats to destroy the Hellenic people. and its blatant abuse of human rights.

^^ Ha, ha... looks like we are the bad guys. ;-)

And another thing... would the Greek members be so kind, and post a map of the Greek state prior 1850. Much obliged."

[justasoldier]

Enough to escort convoy's of athen soldiers on their way to Kosovo.But they are far more quiet than you until they reach the border.

[Peris]

I think we should give the Greeks a break. They are starting to complain that WE are breaking their human rights. Now... that's a first, don't you think. :-D

http://hellenichumanrights.wordpress.com/

And another thing... would the Greek members be so kind, and post a map of the Greek state prior 1850. Much obliged.



alvarhanso man you are the definition of the term ''heavy seas inside the scull'':)

[achilles]

And another thing... would the Greek members be so kind, and post a map of the Greek state prior 1850. Much obliged.

Why dont you post that map and finish up your point? I am waiting...

On edit: or even better. Start a new thread in the history section and we'll talk about...history. How does that sound?

[Peris]

And what exactly does that prove?

That the ancient Macedonians weren't fully fledged Hellenes before Alexanders reign is accepted by most historians, .


Aristotle was from Macedonia/ Wasn't he Greek?


Aristotle was born in Stageira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stageira), Chalcidice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcidice) in 384 BC, about 55 km east of modern-day Thessaloniki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle#cite_note-1) His father, Nicomachus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachus_%28father_of_Aristotle%29) was the personal physician to King Amyntas of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyntas_III_of_Macedon)

[alvarhanso]

Why dont you post that map and finish up your point? I am waiting...

I don't have a point... just curious. I'm waiting.

[achilles]

Aristotle was from Macedonia/ Wasn't he Greek?

Aristotle was from Nebraska. Then he moved to Texas where he kept a ranch for quite some time before moving accross the Atlantic to Skopje. He opened a bar there. With Tito and Stalin. Really.

Ask the Makedonski's if you dont believe me.



I don't have a point... just curious. I'm waiting.

No no really...be my guest.

[alvarhanso]

Aristotle was from Nebraska. Then he moved to Texas where he kept a ranch for quite some time before moving accross the Atlantic to Skopje. He opened a bar there. With Tito and Stalin. Really.

Ask the Makedonski's if you dont believe me.




No no really...be my guest.

Yeah... i've been to that place. It's in the red lite district. Last time i saw Aristotle, he was pushing dope. C,c,c,c,c,c,c... what has the world come to!?

P.S. Still waiting for the maps.

[achilles]

P.S. Still waiting for the maps.

As i said. Do the research yourself and then get back to me to talk about anything you want.

Dont ask. Do.

[Peris]

Last time i saw Aristotle, he was pushing dope..



''Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish''.

Euripides

[justasoldier]

Aristotle was from Nebraska. Then he moved to Texas where he kept a ranch for quite some time before moving accross the Atlantic to Skopje. He opened a bar there. With Tito and Stalin. Really.

Ask the Makedonski's if you dont believe me.




No no really...be my guest.

Oh poor child.You missed your cartoons today.So you you have to made up your own cartoon....damn

[alvarhanso]

As i said. Do the research yourself and then get back to me to talk about anything you want.

Dont ask. Do.

I don't see what the problem is. It's just a simple map of YOUR country. You should have more resources than i do.... i was curious what Greece looked like in the middle of the 19-th century. That's all.

Now, as i was preparing to go to "Aristotel's" tonight.... i dont have the time... so...

[Archaon]

http://www.antiqueprints.com/images/af8/f8398.jpg
""La Grece et ses Colonies" (Ancient Greece and Greek Colonies) steel engraved antique map published in Atlas Universelle de Geographie Ancienne & Moderne, about 1835. Original hand colouring. Good condition. Size 25.5 x 19 cms plus margins. Ref F8398"

[chris450]

ah,same old same old

i chalenge our "macedonian" friends to read the engravings of the ancient macedonian marble stone situated at the entrance of their parliament...(yes ,its in the language macedonians, spartans atheneans ,ionians and the rest of the greeks have been speaking since the times of homer) ..save yourselves the embarasment ,and drop the outrageous claims
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/6757/41010426jc9.jpg

Friends,slavs are not macedonian,they never were and never will be

as the ultranationalist warmonger Gruevski would say ,with a thick Slavic accent :
"long live Makedonia" ,long live our desire to be something we are not...

[achilles]

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/6757/41010426jc9.jpg

You must be kidding me...

[chris450]

You must be kidding me...

no ,i am not

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1489/ce9cce91ce9aro3.jpg

[justasoldier]

ah,same old same old

i chalenge our "macedonian" friends to read the engravings of the ancient macedonian marble stone situated at the entrance of their parliament...(yes ,its in the language macedonians, spartans atheneans ,ionians and the rest of the greeks have been speaking since the times of homer) ..save yourselves the embarasment ,and drop the outrageous claims


Friends,slavs are not macedonian,they never were and never will be

as the ultranationalist warmonger Gruevski would say ,with a thick Slavic accent :
"long live Makedonia" ,long live our desire to be something we are not...

You even started to write poetry.BTW that is archeological artifact found on our soilp-).So quit mas*urbating an lighten up.There are other things you need to worry.like you friend says your diplomats are worried and now US knows you're spying on them......

[achilles]

You even started to write poetry.BTW that is archeological artifact found on our soilp-).So quit mas*urbating an lighten up.There are other things you need to worry.like you friend says your diplomats are worried and now US knows you're spying on them......

Weren't you supposed to be in bed by now?

[justasoldier]

And miss all the fun on this fanatic thread?Noooo......

[achilles]

And miss all the fun on this fanatic thread?Noooo......

Ok then...so whats your comment on this artifact? Do you recognize the inscripted language?

[Raven_gr]

You even started to write poetry.BTW that is archeological artifact found on our soilp-).So quit mas*urbating an lighten up.

Wow you are a fouled mouthed one... Greek findings can be found from Europe to India, that doesn't make Hindus claim they are Macedonian. The question is simple. Can you even read what it says, or not?



There are other things you need to worry.like you friend says your diplomats are worried and now US knows you're spying on them......

What are they gonna spank us or something? They were caught with their pants down. Meddling with the affairs of the U.N in order to promote a hostile policy towards a NATO member and ally for at least 50 years at a time a when the whole deal was supposed to find a middle ground. There is the focus of the affair we are discussing

[chris450]

BTW that is archeological artifact found on our soilp-).

exactly my point,thank you..the funny thing is that instead of hiding historical artefacts that expose the ignorance and absurdity of this "Macedonian" hoax,you place them in the front row

so what do you say,shall we give it a shot? care to translate for us "non-macedonians"?

[achilles]

so what do you say,shall we give it a shot? care to translate for us "non-macedonians"?

No he cant. Because he speaks Bulgarian. Like his compatriots and like his ancestors who never spoke a word of Greek. Unlike the ancient, medieval and modern Macedonians who've always spoken Greek, or Greek dialects, like the one inscripted on this Hellenic artifact.

He is probably googling as we speak trying to figure out what the hell is written on that piece of marble (its marble i presume?)

[LineDoggie]

What are they gonna spank us or something? They were caught with their pants down. Meddling with the affairs of the U.N in order to promote a hostile policy towards a NATO member and ally for at least 50 years at a time a when the whole deal was supposed to find a middle ground. There is the focus of the affair we are discussing


I've yet to see any Independent comfirmation of ythis meddling, Just more from "Greece Strong1111111 Fanbois".


Is there some Independent (by that I mean NON Greek Newspaper Accounts)??? to , Umm I dont know, Substantiate this?

[justasoldier]

Interesting.....



Much of rural inland Macedonia and Thrace were predominantly Slavic
and/or Turkish speaking before 1910. On the limits of the Slavic-speaking
area of Macedonia, see Gounaris (1997: 78).

http://www.benjamins.com/jbp/series/JGL/4/art/0003a.pdf

[Ordie]

What should we think when somebody comes and say hey change your name.And your identity.You'll be called as we like you to.We are furious.

Perhaps you should ask these folks.

http://www.newmacedonia.org/

[achilles]

Interesting.....




http://www.benjamins.com/jbp/series/JGL/4/art/0003a.pdf

Hey, you found a link!

The continuity and cohesion of the Hellenic-Macedonian dialects in the broader region of Macedonia was interrupted numerous times by intrusions of allien tribes like the Slavs, Bulgars (i.e. you), Turks, so it should not be a surprise that other languages have appeared in the region. Some Greeks spoke slavic, or bulgarian, and they only knew a few Greek words.
Linguistic disruptions ended with the eventual liberation of Macedonia from all foreign elements, after centuries of harsh struggles, and the establishment of modern Greek as the official language of the new state.

Macedonia has always been a crossroad, dont forget that. And stop interpreting history the way it suits you.

PS: you have yet to translate the ancient artifact for us, bearing in mind that this requires knowledge of Greek. You have a Greek artifact outside your parliament, kid. Your allignment with reality is minimal.

[justasoldier]

Hey, you found a link!

The continuity and cohesion of the Hellenic-Macedonian dialects in the broader region of Macedonia was interrupted numerous times by intrusions of allien tribes like the Slavs, Bulgars (i.e. you), Turks, so it should not be a surprise that other languages have appeared in the region. Some Greeks spoke slavic, or bulgarian, and they only knew a few Greek words.
Linguistic disruptions ended with the eventual liberation of Macedonia from all foreign elements, after centuries of harsh struggles, and the establishment of modern Greek as the official language of the new state.

Macedonia has always been a crossroad, dont forget that. And stop interpreting history the way it suits you.

Hhahahhah....loolll.And you're interpreting how?Some greek knew few word Greek?Now that's a good one..



PS: you have yet to translate the ancient artifact for us, bearing in mind that this requires knowledge of Greek. You have a Greek artifact outside your parliament, kid. Your allignment with reality is minimal.
Oh forgot it.Sorry no can do.But it is normal that people used to speak and wrote Hellenic during Alexander's time.Official language in his empire was Hellenic under the influence of his tutor Aristotle.Are all the nations who spoke latin Romans?

[achilles]

Hhahahhah....loolll.And you're interpreting how?Some greek knew few word Greek?Now that's a good one..

You are a complete and utter waste of time. Hopefully someday you'll grow up. And start reading more.

Goodnight gents.

[justasoldier]

Perhaps you should ask these folks.

http://www.newmacedonia.org/

Oh they are in trouble.....I believe Achiles here and his platoon will find something to deny their right to name their church.

[justasoldier]

You are a complete and utter waste of time. Hopefully someday you'll grow up. And start reading more.

Goodnight gents.

Well if you're interested in my size then you'll have to check it.It's up north.......Have a nice evening....

[Raven_gr]

I've yet to see any Independent comfirmation of ythis meddling, Just more from "Greece Strong1111111 Fanbois".


Is there some Independent (by that I mean NON Greek Newspaper Accounts)??? to , Umm I dont know, Substantiate this?

A Greek Newspaper, partner to the IHT documented this.



Katerina Mavrona/ANA

Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis, her deputy Yiannis Valinakis (left) and the ministry’s spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos are seen yesterday in Parliament where they briefed a parliamentary foreign affairs and defense committee on Greece’s stance in ongoing negotiations aimed at solving the Macedonia name dispute.

Athens said yesterday that it had formulated its assessment of a United Nations mediator’s new proposal aimed at solving the Macedonia name dispute and was ready to move on to the next step of negotiations.

“Following a comprehensive study... the government has finalized its objections, observations and proposed changes to the proposal,” said a Foreign Ministry statement released yesterday afternoon.

There was no official statement by a government official yesterday specifying Greece’s stance but sources told Kathimerini that Athens favored one out of five composite names proposed by UN envoy Matthew Nimetz and was open to debating a second. The name favored by Athens – as it gives a geographical determination for the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) and so clearly distinguishes it from Greece’s region of Macedonia – is Republic of Upper Macedonia. Another of Nimetz’s proposals – New Republic of Macedonia – would be subject to debate if it were modified to Republic of New Macedonia, the sources said.

The fine details of Nimetz’s proposals were made public in a document leaked to the daily Vima yesterday. The Foreign Ministry condemned the leak, claiming that it could “undermine the negotiation effort.”

Meanwhile, sources said that the government was keen to move forward quickly with talks to avert the possible negative impact of protracted public debate on the proposal, particularly now that the comprehensive proposal has been made public.

Greece has expressed its preference for the use of a single name by FYROM – rather than a “dual solution” where there would be different names for domestic and international use.

As it seems that a dual solution is unavoidable, Greece is said to be intent on determining how this formula would be implemented. Athens is expected to insist on the use of the composite name chosen for FYROM – and not the country’s constitutional name of Macedonia – on citizens’ passports.

FYROM has already expressed its strong objections to the use of anything other than its constitutional name on passports.

Yesterday FYROM President Branko Crvenkovski aired his objections to Nimetz’s proposal, maintaining that it was more detrimental for Skopje than the suggestion made by Nimetz in 2005, namely Republika Makedonija-Skopje.

Nevertheless, Crvenkovski said one of the five composite names proposed by Nimetz might be acceptable, namely: Independent Republic of Macedonia.

The FYROM leader also suggested an alternative: People’s Republic of Macedonia.

But overall Crvenkovski appeared displeased with Nimetz’s proposal, which he described as “a product of Greek pressure.”

FYROM’s Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski stressed that his country would not accept the “negative points” of the UN envoy’s proposal.

Bakoyannis accepts responsibility for leak of Nimetz document

Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said yesterday that she took full “political responsibility” for the leaking to a newspaper of the proposal’s made by UN mediator Matthew Nimetz on the Macedonia name issue.

Bakoyannis made the statement to a parliamentary foreign affairs and defense committee after coming under attack from opposition MPs over her handling of the negotiations.

The leaking of the document, which appeared in the Vima newspaper yesterday, was greeted with disbelief by the government and considerable frustration by the United States and the UN, sources said.


“This is a serious political and institutional slip-up,” said PASOK MP Panos Beglitis. “It raises doubts about the political reliability of the government.”

The Foreign Ministry and prime minister’s office both denied being responsible for the secret proposals finding their way into the newspaper. Bakoyannis pledged to try to find the source of the leak.

“I accept the political responsibility [for the leak],” she told the 49 MPs on the committee.

“The government made the utmost effort to maintain confidentiality. I do not know how this damaging leak came about. I will look into it.”

Bakoyannis went on to inform the members of the panel about the points discussed with Nimetz. The committee session was not covered by Parliament’s CCTV network in a bid to prevent further leaks.


I believe it covers it.

Oh and justasoldier, a lot of Asia minor Greeks and Pontian Greeks didn't speak a word Greek when they came to Greece after the 1922 Lausanne Treaty and the Ethnic cleansing of the first half of the 20th century. Again don't try to turn this around. You don't have the info, the books the knowledge or the patience. Go visit a museum and start reading some history. If you are so keen on linguistics maybe you should check out YOUR language, YOUR alphabet and its relation to slavic languages.

Last post for the night it is almost 2am here.

[LineDoggie]

Again, Independent, (ie; not a greek newspaper), surely if the story is legitimate it can be found? You'll forgive me if I believe a Greek Newspaper has , shall we say a Vested interest in sales over facts in this case.

[achilles]

Oh forgot it.Sorry no can do.But it is normal that people used to speak and wrote Hellenic during Alexander's time.Official language in his empire was Hellenic under the influence of his tutor Aristotle.Are all the nations who spoke latin Romans?

Who told you that, kid? Gruevski? :lol:

I suppose you mean "official" language in the sense that the English language today is a common ground for more or less everyone around the world. So the Makedons spoke a non-Greek dialect and during Alexander's campaign they spread another language all over the then known world?

And Aristotle was a Makedon, a non-Greek as you suggest, but influenced his student Alexander to speak Greek instead of his mother tongue?

In other words, if, say, Norway launches a campaign to conquer the world and spread its culture, the Norwegians will spread English instead of Norwegian??

FYROMian fuzzy logic. Priceless! :lol:

Kid, do yourself a favor and read further. And cut down on the dirty talk. ;)

[achilles]

Again, Independent, (ie; not a greek newspaper), surely if the story is legitimate it can be found? You'll forgive me if I believe a Greek Newspaper has , shall we say a Vested interest in sales over facts in this case.

How can this penetrate your skull?

Our secretary of state ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE LEAK.

More clear now?

[justasoldier]

Who told you that, kid? Gruevski? :lol:

I suppose you mean "official" language in the sense that the English language today is a common ground for more or less everyone around the world. So the Makedons spoke a non-Greek dialect and during Alexander's campaign they spread another language all over the then known world?

And Aristotle was a Makedon, a non-Greek as you suggest, but influenced his student Alexander to speak Greek instead of his mother tongue?

In other words, if, say, Norway launches a campaign to conquer the world and spread its culture, the Norwegians will spread English instead of Norwegian??

FYROMian fuzzy logic. Priceless! :lol:

Kid, do yourself a favor and read further. And cut down on the dirty talk. ;)

Ok i almost forgot that you're still in puberty and started to write something else.....nvm

You got it all wrong.Aristotle was Hellen and spoke Hellenic.....Now like Churchill said


The balkans produce more history than it can consume
So quit bugging me with your history lessons.Focus on your today's situation:
1.You're home cause nothing is functioning in your town.You have a strike going on and why are you not there?Don't tell me you're still mast*bating on bakoyani?
2.You are trying to destroy a nation.With your na*i attitude.The name talka are just a cover you can't fool the world.But i assure you the only respond you gonna get from our people is buzz off(in most polite manner).So what are you going to do attack us?If you do how much a poor balkan country like the republic with capital of Athens can withstand to finance a war?15 days?

3.Somewhere in your collapsing government you have a serious leak.Now US knows you're spying on them,like any good ally.So what are you going to do about it?

And btw how can you make differnce between kurds and Turks but you fail to realise the Macedonian etnicity is differen from Hellenic?

[achilles]

You got it all wrong.Aristotle was Hellen and spoke Hellenic.....
Cheers


So quit bugging me with your history lessons.

I know this is something beyond your knowledge and capacity. Cant take it.


Focus on your today's situation:
1.You're home cause nothing is functioning in your town.You have a strike going on and why are you not there?Don't tell me you're still mast*bating on bakoyani?
2.You are trying to destroy a nation.With your na*i attitude.The name talka are just a cover you can't fool the world.But i assure you the only respond you gonna get from our people is buzz off(in most polite manner).So what are you going to do attack us?If you do how much a poor balkan country like the republic with capital of Athens can withstand to finance a war?15 days?

3.Somewhere in your collapsing government you have a serious leak.Now US knows you're spying on them,like any good ally.So what are you going to do about it?

And btw how can you make differnce between kurds and Turks but you fail to realise the Macedonian etnicity is differen from Hellenic?

This is off topic and a huge pile of incoherent gibberish to which i'll not respond. If you want to talk about the running political situation in Greece (or whether i am home or at work), PM me or start a related thread.
A little note on this:

So what are you going to do attack us?If you do how much a poor balkan country like the republic with capital of Athens can withstand to finance a war?15 days?
Given the current balance of powers, I think it would take no more than a few hours to reach Tetovo. No?

Take care kiddo;)

[justasoldier]

Dude there is something wrong going on with you.i must admit you have quite a good evasive tactics.Now the subject of thread is that Macedonia made a pact with US.And you knew it but you had a serious leak.So it is not that i am offtopic but you really are in trouble.I would say your history or the way you interpreted it was quite offtopic but i still answered.Now i only asked what is your solution of the present situation?

PS i wont PM you were enemies,remember?And you have a job?Back here were i work i hardly have a time to chat on the internet.But today is your lucky day i have a day off.

And be good too.Honestly My sympathies are with Athens today.I hope the strike will be short.

[Raven_gr]

Dude there is something wrong going on with you.i must admit you have quite a good evasive tactics.Now the subject of thread is that Macedonia made a pact with US.And you knew it but you had a serious leak.So it is not that i am offtopic but you really are in trouble.I would say your history or the way you interpreted it was quite offtopic but i still answered.Now i only asked what is your solution of the present situation?

PS i wont PM you were enemies,remember?And you have a job?Back here were i work i hardly have a time to chat on the internet. But today is your lucky day i have a day off.

And be good too.Honestly My sympathies are with Athens today.I hope the strike will be short.

For starters calling names especially calling us Nazi's is insulting to say the least. Again you show your total ignorance of history. Show some respect. I for one am not interested in another show of your lack of maturity or manners.

Second. In what way will this leak cost us?

If anything the whole thing shows first that the whole process is a sham orchestrated to implement a U.S designed solution and not a solution based on a compromise facilitated by the U.N.

Second that the U.S has chosen to side on the matter with an unknown factor and a weak state it can manipulate to further its agenda instead of an ally and a member of NATO.

[justasoldier]

For starters calling names especially calling us Nazi's is insulting to say the least. Again you show your total ignorance of history. Show some respect. I for one am not interested in another show of your lack of maturity or manners.

Second. In what way will this leak cost us?

If anything the whole thing shows first that the whole process is a sham orchestrated to implement a U.S designed solution and not a solution based on a compromise facilitated by the U.N.

Second that the U.S has chosen to side on the matter with an unknown factor and a weak state it can manipulate to further its agenda instead of an ally and a member of NATO.


1.Achiles has a unique way of conversation based on he's the smartest and toughest guy so my language to him is the most polite i can imagine.

2.Quit the poor country chats.I don't have to remind you that you are yet another Balkan country(and poor indeed) who is just an parasite(read achiles posts he admits it)in EU and NATO.It is your country that started the s*it anyway.And 90% of the serious politicians in this world finds this "dispute" of yours STUPID(cappital letters).That puts your "imposed US solution" talks in rubbish at leas.
4.Before you explode in your "divine" origine chats just remind me on how your country contributed to US and NATO intereses lately.

[Vorian]

2.Quit the poor country chats.I don't have to remind you that you are yet another Balkan country(and poor indeed) who is just an parasite(read achiles posts he admits it)in EU and NATO.It is your country that started the s*it anyway.And 90% of the serious politicians in this world finds this "dispute" of yours STUPID(cappital letters).That puts your "imposed US solution" talks in rubbish at leas.

He said weak, not poor.And anyway, if we are a parasite of EU what does that make you, since 90% of the investments in your country are Greek???



4.Before you explode in your "divine" origine chats just remind me on how your country contributed to US and NATO intereses lately.

Why?

[LineDoggie]

How can this penetrate your skull?

Our secretary of state ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE LEAK.

More clear now?



Like Mud

...........You still havent given independent proof of this

Politicians can Lie, correct? Even Greek ones, Correct?

Again no Confirmation, from Independent sources, as frankly I dont believe word one from Fanbois, thats all.

[achilles]

Like Mud

...........You still havent given independent proof of this

Politicians can Lie, correct? Even Greek ones, Correct?

Again no Confirmation, from Independent sources, as frankly I dont believe word one from Fanbois, thats all.

Check this out...

A Greek newspaper blows the whistle. Nimetz is a US puppet, as we all thought he was, right from the start. Our foreign minister confirms the truthfullness of the incident (and therefore the authenticity of the leaked document) and takes responsibility for this leak. Bear in mind that the whole story does not suit either the foreign minister or Greece in general. We want smooth, impartial diplomatic procedures.

Absolutely noone, the US embassy or any related FYROMian, has denied the story so far. And believe me, noone will. Because the document is very authentic, as well as Nimetz's dodgy role.

Its common sense. Dont expect any "independent" verification since everybody is trying to flush the whole thing down the toilet without too much publicity. Including the majority of the Greek media ;)

[LineDoggie]

Check this out...

A Greek newspaper blows the whistle. Nimetz is a US puppet, as we all thought he was, right from the start. Our foreign minister confirms the truthfullness of the incident (and therefore the authenticity of the leaked document) and takes responsibility for this leak. Bear in mind that the whole story does not suit either the foreign minister or Greece in general. We want smooth, impartial diplomatic procedures.

Absolutely noone, the US embassy or any related FYROMian, has denied the story so far. And believe me, noone will. Because the document is very authentic, as well as Nimetz's dodgy role.

Its common sense. Dont expect any "independent" verification since everybody is trying to flush the whole thing down the toilet without too much publicity. Including the majority of the Greek media ;)

Matthew Nimetz is an American Citizen, why should he be a Greek Puppet?
All you've done is bluster for page after page, but still cant provide one independent source for this.

[achilles]

Matthew Nimetz is an American Citizen, why should he be a Greek Puppet?
All you've done is bluster for page after page, but still cant provide one independent source for this.

How about using common sense for a change, re read what i posted, and think about it a bit more, before repeating yourself over and over again about those "independent sources". Why hasnt anyone denied ANY of those very serious allegations? Because the US intelligence is probably too busy figuring out who snatched the document...

Nobody requires from Nimetz to be a Greek puppet. We want any UN envoy to be INDEPENDENT and IMPARTIAL in his negotiations. Nimetz included. I've said that already.

Do you still expect the story to go out on ******* or BBC?

[LineDoggie]

Again, no ind. source, no joy.....