Richard Holbrooke: Bosnia on brink of collapse [Archive]

V.I.D.

10-22-2008, 11:40 AM

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Region (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Region http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif Holbrooke, Ashdown: Bosnia on brink of collapse 22 October 2008 | 11:44 | Source: Beta SARAJEVO -- The creator of the Dayton Accords Richard Holbrooke and former High Representative Paddy Ashdown believe Bosnia-Hercegovina is on the brink of collapse.

In a joint text on the situation in the country, where they state that the EU “made a mistake by not supporting its representative in Bosnia-Hercegovina, the capable Slovak diplomat Miroslav Lajčak, and undermined and reduced his powers and authorities at critical moments.“

Ashdown and Holbrooke stressed that “as in 1995, the engagement of the trans-Atlantic community is required if we don’t want to slip back into another Bosnian crisis.“

“Bosnian Serb Prime Minister Milorad Dodik, once a favorite of the international community, especially Washington, because of his opposition to the Serb Democratic Party, has simply adopted its manifesto and practices, free of the burden of the genocide committed by it,“ states the analysis, published in today’s edition of daily Dnevni Avaz.

They add that Dodik’s long-term policy is clear, “to bring his Serb entity—the Republic of Srpska (RS)—into a position to break away as soon as the opportunity presents itself.“

The two diplomats say that Dodik has taken advantage of the weakness of constitutional state structures, fatigue and the international community’s saturation, as well as the inability of the EU to meet its own conditions, and over the course of the last two years has succeeded in destroying the majority of the real progress made in Bosnia-Hercegovina in the last 13 years."

Holbrooke and Ashdown believe that Dodik has destroyed the progress made “mainly by weakening state institutions and stopping Bosnia-Hercegovina on the road to evolving into a functional state that is able to join the EU.“

“Dodik’s activities have been fueled and by encouraged by Russia and the Russian petro-dollar,“ they say.

The two diplomats add that “Chairman of the Bosnian Presidency Haris Silajdžić has frequently made statement on the need to abolish the two entities that comprise Bosnia-Hercegovina, and the need to create an undivided country not made up of federal units.“

“Poisonous relations and clashes between the two of them are at the heart of the current crisis in Bosnia-Hercegovina,“ which is why “doubts and fears have revived that were the basis for the start of the war in 1992,“ states the text.

Holbrooke and Ashdown believe that this situation “has been brought about by the international community’s passivity and confusion“ after “the Bush administration practically turned its back on Bosnia-Hercegovina, while the EU has become deeply entangled in events in the country.“

So typical, the two very individuals directly responsible for creating the chaos in the region are now shedding crocodile tears over possible disintegration of Bosnia. Paddy "Pants down" Ashdown, who received many a fat check for playing the Imperial overlord to confused Bosnian masses could be found on Internet demonstrating/checking KLA's weapons in 1998. Holbrooke's "good deeds" in the region demand whole series of books of their own. And now the two shiny examples of gun-toting democracy cry over the spilled milk. If the RS government is clever enough, which I doubt, it should anounce the referendum on seceding just like Bosniaks and Croats did in 1992.

The Balkan

10-22-2008, 04:00 PM

Ex-peace envoys: Bosnian peace deal may collapse

By AIDA CERKEZ-ROBINSON – 5 hours ago
SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina (AP) — Bosnia's fragile peace deal is in danger of collapsing as the world turns its attention elsewhere, the U.S. architect of the agreement and another top envoy warned Wednesday.

Former U.S. peace envoy Richard Holbrooke and Paddy Ashdown, the former international administrator in Bosnia, said another Bosnia crisis is ready to erupt because Bosnian Serbs are exploiting the lack of U.S. attention and the European Union's inability to deal with Bosnia's problems to create the conditions to secede.

Their comments were published in Bosnia's daily newspaper Dnevni Avaz.

Tens of thousands of people were killed before the peace deal ended Bosnia's 1992-95 war. Christian Orthodox Serbs fought to annex parts of the country to neighboring Serbia and to cleanse the region of other ethnic groups, while Muslim Bosniaks and Roman Catholic Croats fought to keep the country together and independent.

Holbrooke brokered a peace deal that divided the country into two fairly autonomous ministates — one for the Bosnian Serbs and the other shared by the Bosniaks and the Croats. The two are linked by joint institutions into one state.

Now, the envoy say the Bosnian Serbs are trying to weaken central institutions so the country disintegrates, while Bosniaks and Croats are trying to strengthen them to better unite the country.

The two former envoys claim that Russia backs the most influential Bosnian Serb — the prime minister of Republika Srpska, Milorad Dodik, who has a clear policy of putting his region "in a position to secede if the opportunity arises."

In the past two years, Dodik has reversed much of the real progress Bosnia has made toward being a functioning state, the envoys said.

"(Russia is) making trouble for the US and EU where possible" and its efforts must be rebuffed, the envoys wrote.
Dodik's main rival, the current president of Bosnia, Haris Silajdzic, stresses the need to abolish ethnic divisions.

"This toxic interaction is at the heart of today's Bosnian crisis. As a result, the suspicion and fear that began the war in 1992 has been reinvigorated," the envoys wrote.

They urged the EU and the new US administration to get more engaged in Bosnia before the situation deteriorates.
"(Otherwise, things could get) very nasty quickly. By now, we should all know the price of that," Holbrooke and Ashdown warned.

Pejon09

10-22-2008, 04:20 PM

I would like to hear what Belgrad has to say...

Sumadinac

10-22-2008, 04:49 PM

So typical, the two very individuals directly responsible for creating the chaos in the region are now shedding crocodile tears over possible disintegration of Bosnia. Paddy "Pants down" Ashdown, who received many a fat check for playing the Imperial overlord to confused Bosnian masses could be found on Internet demonstrating/checking KLA's weapons in 1998. Holbrooke's "good deeds" in the region demand whole series of books of their own. And now the two shiny examples of gun-toting democracy cry over the spilled milk. If the RS government is clever enough, which I doubt, it should anounce the referendum on seceding just like Bosniaks and Croats did in 1992.

Serbia won't support RS if bosnian serbs proclaim independance. Serbia can't fight for its own territorial integrity on one side and support the unilateral secession of RS on the other side. If RS wants independance, it 'd be better to wait for serbian and russian support.

PVJ

10-22-2008, 05:25 PM

Anything Holbrooke says is so biased its not worth forcing my brain to process the bullsh!t he says. Also according to Holbrooke, Russia commited genocide and war crimes in South Ossetia, despite there being no proof, and Serbia was responsible for genocide in Bosnia, even tough the ICJ cleared Serbia of any responsibility, but apparently Holbrooke is so special his opinion surpasses that of the highest court in the world.

BW2

10-22-2008, 06:17 PM

I would like to hear what Belgrad has to say...
...Hey its not our problem... ;)

zg18

10-22-2008, 06:25 PM

sup_tech

10-22-2008, 08:26 PM

That was an artificially created country anyways.

The Balkan

10-23-2008, 12:46 AM

That was an artificially created country anyways.

What do you mean? Not that I dissagree, plenty about it is artificial in the last 13 years, but care to elaborate?

V.I.D.

10-23-2008, 01:03 AM

Serbia won't support RS if bosnian serbs proclaim independance. Serbia can't fight for its own territorial integrity on one side and support the unilateral secession of RS on the other side. If RS wants independance, it 'd be better to wait for serbian and russian support.

See, I find that a major mistake in thinking. RS should have declared independence back in February, right after Kosovo did. That way, Serbs would have a bargaining chip, it does not mean that Serbia needed to recognize them immediately or anything else. Now, with the current government in Serbia, they just seem awfully pathetic with Tadic's continuous sucking up to EU, returning of ambassadors, etc. You can't play a moral game with people who have no moral. Hence, independence first, then we can talk about pulling it back on the day Kosovo Albanians do the same thing. The way it is now, Serbs play victims again and time simply goes by. Not exactly the smartest tactic, IMO.

RWR

10-23-2008, 01:07 AM

That was an artificially created country anyways.

And when it was created exactly?

BiH won't collapse.
This is not 1992, Serbs don't have JNA behind them and balance of power within BiH is totaly diffrent.

BW2

10-23-2008, 02:10 AM

BiH won't collapse.
This is not 1992, Serbs don't have JNA behind them and balance of power within BiH is totaly diffrent. Who said they need military means to leave?

D4ark

10-23-2008, 02:15 AM

Few days ago it was Pakistan...

The Balkan

10-23-2008, 02:23 AM

Who said they need military means to leave?

Don't be naive. Any result of RS trying to leave leads to at least some kind of violence. At the least individual "terror" attacks, probly from both sides.

Serbs taking 49% of Bosnian teritory peacefully, is the day Bosniaks and those who want a whole Bosnia as it was meant to be, don't exist. And that day won't come.

Stefan850

10-23-2008, 04:30 AM

Don't be naive. Any result of RS trying to leave leads to at least some kind of violence. At the least individual "terror" attacks, probly from both sides.

Serbs taking 49% of Bosnian teritory peacefully, is the day Bosniaks and those who want a whole Bosnia as it was meant to be, don't exist. And that day won't come.

Individual "terror" attacks wont stop anything, on the contrary.

The Balkan

10-23-2008, 04:45 AM

Individual "terror" attacks wont stop anything, on the contrary.

Who said it would stop anything? I said violence is a guarantee.

And when I said terror attacks, it was an example of the best possible scenario. Bloodbath is going to happen. Cuz idiots don't learn from the past. Inat is most important.

tea drinker

10-23-2008, 06:57 AM

Who said it would stop anything? I said violence is a guarantee.

And when I said terror attacks, it was an example of the best possible scenario. Bloodbath is going to happen. Cuz idiots don't learn from the past. Inat is most important.
That would be baaaad news. I hope it doesn't come to violence again.
IMHO poor quality leaders lead yugo to civil war... Seems the leadership hasn't improved much.

In your opinion, what is the way out of this situation?

Kowakian ML

10-23-2008, 07:08 AM

IMHO poor quality leaders lead yugo to civil war... Seems the leadership hasn't improved much. General hate and unsolved national "questions" led to war.

Make no mistakes, Yugo people aren't that dumb that few words from corrupted politicians can make them from loving each other go to hating each other.

I don't think that in case of RS secceding there will be violence, RS is almost entirely ethnicaly clean area, and almost all members of Bosnian army on it's territory are quite litterally RS soldiers in new uniforms, so there is noone who can use violence to oppose seccesion.

Calanen

10-23-2008, 07:15 AM

Would any of us notice if Bosnia collapsed?

tea drinker

10-23-2008, 08:30 AM

Would any of us notice if Bosnia collapsed?
High possibility we would - at least in Europe.
There are some bad scenarios that could play out - and some very bad ones which even Aussies would notice!

I hope to funk that it doesn't descend into chaos, those people deserve a second chance, not a second lashing.

Sumadinac

10-23-2008, 08:39 AM

See, I find that a major mistake in thinking. RS should have declared independence back in February, right after Kosovo did. That way, Serbs would have a bargaining chip, it does not mean that Serbia needed to recognize them immediately or anything else. Now, with the current government in Serbia, they just seem awfully pathetic with Tadic's continuous sucking up to EU, returning of ambassadors, etc. You can't play a moral game with people who have no moral. Hence, independence first, then we can talk about pulling it back on the day Kosovo Albanians do the same thing. The way it is now, Serbs play victims again and time simply goes by. Not exactly the smartest tactic, IMO.

Today's tactic won't give a lot of results. I agree. But today, no matter the reason, they are a majority in Serbia to think that European Union is very important. If Serbia had recognized RS the EU would have said that there is no integration for Serbia.

Royal

10-23-2008, 08:41 AM

Paddy "Pants down" Ashdown, who received many a fat check for playing the Imperial overlord to confused Bosnian masses could be found on Internet demonstrating/checking KLA's weapons in 1998. Holbrooke's

Linky? This I have to see....

Would any of us notice if Bosnia collapsed?

It would be rather a shame given the hundreds of lives lost and millions of dollars spent to end the war. Not forgetting the fate of the people of BiH.

Fortunatley your fellow countrymen who served with honour and pride there do not share your narrow, blinkered view.

sup_tech

10-23-2008, 11:31 AM

What do you mean? Not that I dissagree, plenty about it is artificial in the last 13 years, but care to elaborate?
To elaborate about what? That Serbs were forced by NATO to join you? You didn't know that? Please...

And when it was created exactly?
It's your country, you should know that. 14 December 1995

BiH won't collapse.
This is not 1992, Serbs don't have JNA behind them and balance of power within BiH is totaly diffrent.
If Serbs decide that they don't like your union anymore they have the same right to separate just like you separated from Yugoslavia. If they decide to do it on their own or with the help of somebody else it's up to them.

Jobu

10-23-2008, 11:51 AM

tea drinker

10-23-2008, 12:21 PM

General hate and unsolved national "questions" led to war.

Definately part of it - they are used by politicians to present their case against "the bad people"

Make no mistakes, Yugo people aren't that dumb that few words from corrupted politicians can make them from loving each other go to hating each other.

Well, that would make them smarter than the rest of us...
Isn't a few words from Montenegro and Macedonia causing riots diplomatic incidents etc right now? Don't discount the herd mentality. Present an economic crisis - blame your enemy, and bingo you have problems.
Yugo suffered very bad inflation before the war....

V.I.D.

10-23-2008, 01:08 PM

Linky? This I have to see....

It would be rather a shame given the hundreds of lives lost and millions of dollars spent to end the war. Not forgetting the fate of the people of BiH.

Fortunatley your fellow countrymen who served with honour and pride there do not share your narrow, blinkered view.

It starts at 08:55 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVTQjlZBaM4

From Milosevic Trial Public Archive:
September 2005
(note: transcript links are activated as the ICTY uploads them. There is usually a few weeks delay in this process)
Friday, September 30th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050930.ram) Janicevic continues his testimony. He discusses KLA activities in Racak to try to prove that the VJ did not shell the village. Rather, he states, the police fought a battle against the KLA in an anti-terrorist operation, and few, if any civilians were killed. Also, a videotape of Paddy Ashdown with KLA members and Albanians is shown and discussed./ transcript (http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050930IT.htm)
Thursday, September 29th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050929.ram) Milosevic re-examines Bozidar Delic. A video of Paddy Ashdown with uniformed KLA members is shown. Delic spends much time refuting claims from Ashdown’s March 15, 2002 testimony. After Delic’s testimony, Bogoljub Janicevic, former chief of the Urosevac SUP, resumes his examination-in-chief. He mostly discusses the disciplining of Serbian police officers when they committed crimes. / transcript
Wednesday, September 28th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050928.ram) General Delic is re-cross-examined. Much of the day is spent discussing Paddy Ashdown’s location in the mountains when he witnessed certain things. Initially, he said he was in Albania, but he has corrected himself and said he was in Yugoslavia. The prosecution and Delic argue over his testimony. / transcript
Thursday, September 22nd - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050922.ram) Bogoljub Janicevic continues his testimony. He discusses the history of repression in Kosovo. He also speaks of the KLA’s plans to threated Kosovo’s Albanian population. He spends most of the day explaining the structure and composition of the KLA. / transcript
Wednesday, September 21st - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050921.ram) The re-examination of General Bozidar Delic continues with Delic discussing the supposed impossibility of Paddy Ashdown’s March 2002 testimony. Much of the day is spent discussing ties between the KLA and NATO. Next, Col. Bogoljub Janicevic, a Kosovo-Serb who was the chief of the Urosevac and Pristina SUPs, is called to the stand. He discusses Albanian Nationalism in Kosovo dating back to the late sixties. / transcript
Tuesday, September 20th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050920.ram) Vojislav Seselj begins his re-examination. Milosevic and Seselj scoff at the concept of a joint criminal enterprise. They also try to prove that pre-war propaganda distributed by Croats and the Bosnian-Muslims was the true reason for Serbian agitation. Afterwards, General Bozidar Delic is called to the stand to finish his re-examination. He continues to rebuke Paddy Ashdowns testimony from March 2002. Also discussed is the so-called “Atlantic Brigade”, a group of Americans fighting with the KLA. / transcript (http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050920IT.htm)

V.I.D.

10-23-2008, 01:16 PM

Today's tactic won't give a lot of results. I agree. But today, no matter the reason, they are a majority in Serbia to think that European Union is very important. If Serbia had recognized RS the EU would have said that there is no integration for Serbia.

European Union is very important. However, Serbia will not get into it anytime soon and in turn, it will be asked to recognize Kosovo. Serbians should have thought about it prior to 1999, now it's too late to do anything and having a public image of a toothless & pathetic ex-bully will not bring it any good. We lost the propaganda war in 1991, but we don't have to lose self-respect now.

The Balkan

10-23-2008, 04:12 PM

Interesting how people were screaming about Serbia falling apart (which it hardly did, its just one small province) but here where litteraly half is at stake they don't care heh. I wonder why.

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Region (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Region http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif"EU supports united Bosnia"23 October 2008 | 16:04 | Source: Beta
According to a statement, Pack said that “despite Bosnia’s slow progress, the European Parliament (EP) supports the signing of the Stabilization and Association Agreement (SAA)“ with that country.

“But, responsible politicians in Sarajevo and the entities must know that Bosnia-Hercegovina can only become an EU member as a united country,“ she stressed.

The EP endorsed the signing of the SAA with Bosnia-Hercegovina with a majority vote.

According to the statements, Pack said that Bosnia-Hercegovina could only exist as a united country and called on both entities to strengthen the country through constitutional reform.

“Bosnia-Hercegovina can only exist as a united state, if all responsible people understand and accept that changes are only possible with the agreement of all three ethnic communities. That’s why both entities have to strengthen the integral state via constitutional reform,“ she said.

The EP official pointed to the different decision-making levels in the Federation, and to “the constant rivalry between the politicians in the various entities, which exacerbates mistrust and ethnic division.“

Another problem, Pack said, was that of refugees, “obscure privatizations, corruption and inadequate freedom of press.“

Pack proposed that the EU high representative be replaced with an EU special envoy as it “could help increase the level of responsibility of politicians in Bosnia-Hercegovina,“ the statement concluded.

"EU supports united Bosnia"

The Balkan

10-23-2008, 04:20 PM

EU Claims Bosnia 'Couldn’t Be Worse'

23 October 2008 Sarajevo _ The European Parliament is discussing a resolution urging Bosnia’s leaders to move on with key reforms amid fears of heightened tensions in the country.

According to the European Parliament schedule, the resolution is expected to be voted on Thursday, after the debate which took place on the previous day.

“Divisions along ethnic lines are growing, the Office of the High Representative is not using its powers and nobody fears or respects it. Politicians are doing nothing and the situation could not be worse,” said the European Parliament deputy from Germany, Doris Pack, who proposed the resolution, local media reported on Thursday.

The statement came one day after the former United States diplomat Richard Holbrooke and former High Representative Paddy Ashdown published an article urging European Union and US leaders to reinforce their engagement in Bosnia and halt a new crisis which threatens to bring the country to collapse.

Speaking at the session in Strasbourg, the EU Enlargement Commissioner, Olli Rehn, said Bosnia has made “a significant step forward” by signing a key pre-membership deal called the Stabilisation and Association Agreement on June 16.

“The EU could initial the Stabilisation and Association Agreement last December and sign it in June because the country's political leaders pulled together and reached consensus on the main conditions, particularly police reform. This proves that progress can be achieved and crises overcome, when the political will exists,” Rehn said in his speech.

“However, this consensus has since collapsed and reforms halted,” Rehn said.

“Nationalist rhetoric ahead of the October local elections was a factor in this deterioration. Yet, the country's political problems run much deeper.”

“The lack of a common vision among the country's leaders about its future and the absence of consensus on EU reforms harm its European prospects. There is open disagreement on most political questions, while no sense of urgency or responsibility to overcome this stalemate.”

Rehn welcomed and supported the proposed resolution of the European Parliament, which requires local leaders to move on with key reforms. This would enable closing down of the Office of the High Representative, OHR, which will be discussed in mid-November by the international powers.

Rehn added that also in November, the EU’s executive arm, the European Commission will publish its Progress Report for Bosnia.

“We, too, shall point out the sheer fact that the leaders of Bosnia and Herzegovina can either continue to quarrel and fall behind their neighbours, or get on with reform and move forward towards the EU,” he said.

Calanen

10-23-2008, 05:13 PM

It would be rather a shame given the hundreds of lives lost and millions of dollars spent to end the war. Not forgetting the fate of the people of BiH.

Fortunatley your fellow countrymen who served with honour and pride there do not share your narrow, blinkered view.

Just because the troops did or do a good job doesnt mean that the mission is in our national interest or a good idea - or that competing views cannot be expressed or considered. Those questions are quite separate, troops go where they are told - although people tend to merge them on the basis that any military mission is always a good idea, and to suggest otherwise is to be an evil troop hater who denigrates their service.

As much sympathy we might have for the people of Bosnia, interfering there now (at least for Australia) is not in our national interest, and I would not send 1 troop or 1 taxpayer dollar there on that basis. If other countries or people think differently, that's a matter for them.

As to what the troops who served there think - I have no idea. I imagine you'd get a spectrum of views rather than a sole opinion.

domokun

10-23-2008, 05:47 PM

To elaborate about what? That Serbs were forced by NATO to join you? You didn't know that? Please...

It's your country, you should know that. 14 December 1995

If Serbs decide that they don't like your union anymore they have the same right to separate just like you separated from Yugoslavia. If they decide to do it on their own or with the help of somebody else it's up to them.

I think that Bosnia-Herzegovina existed as a entity before Camp David peace accords.

May I ask you what is different in BiH and Kosovo issues? It's absolutely same as if Republika Srpska would separate from BiH as Kosovos separation from Serbia. Both RS and Kosovo are similar as those weren't states in Yugoslavia. At least from legal point of view.

Both cases have still things that haven't been solved, like Serb refugees from Kosovo.

The Balkan

10-23-2008, 05:57 PM

I think that Bosnia-Herzegovina existed as a entity before Camp David peace accords.

May I ask you what is different in BiH and Kosovo issues? It's absolutely same as if Republika Srpska would separate from BiH as Kosovos separation from Serbia. Both RS and Kosovo are similar as those weren't states in Yugoslavia. At least from legal point of view.

Both cases have still things that haven't been solved, like Serb refugees from Kosovo.

Bosnia existed as an entity? What? Bosnia first emerged as an independant state in the 12th century and was one of the most powerful kingdoms in the area by mid 14th. Then an ottoman province even bigger then today's country. Then independant again for a tiny bit. And it was a repblic in Yugoslavia with this exact shape and historical borders.

Kosovo was an autonomous province with much historical basis. It existed in Yugoslavia and before that for a long long time. And it's always been contested. It didn't boot the Serb population out in 2 years. One group became dominant over a long period. Regardless of what people think about it's independance, why should Bosnia be chopped up cuz of Kosovo?

RS didn't exist before the wars, isn't a province or republic, just a line slicing down the middle of the country where the front lines were at the end of the war. Nothing more. It's 49% of country's teritory. The non-Serbs were kicked out of the teritory (I was one of them) in 2 year span if not less. The guy who created it is on trial for genocide after running for like 12 years.

You show me who took that from Serbia proper? Who split it litteraly in half and took that half? Is taking Hawai from America the same as taking half of America? But RS isn't even Hawai cuz like I said it was just created now.

Bosnia doesn't work as a whole simply cuz Serbs don't want it to. They're so afraid and paranoid everyone's out to get them when the majority of us just wish the country would work as a whole and we'd be happy. They think if our entities were gone we'd ride down from the mountains and slaughter them :cantbeli:

People seriosly need to look the history up before acting as if Bosnia is some new, imagined country with no history or culture when it's the exact opposite. Our capital was the center of the whole peninsula at one point, behind Istanbul. Most of the other Balkan nations have had major changes to their borders way more through history then we have.

Stefan850

10-23-2008, 10:09 PM

It starts at 08:55 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVTQjlZBaM4

From Milosevic Trial Public Archive:
September 2005
(note: transcript links are activated as the ICTY uploads them. There is usually a few weeks delay in this process)
Friday, September 30th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050930.ram) Janicevic continues his testimony. He discusses KLA activities in Racak to try to prove that the VJ did not shell the village. Rather, he states, the police fought a battle against the KLA in an anti-terrorist operation, and few, if any civilians were killed. Also, a videotape of Paddy Ashdown with KLA members and Albanians is shown and discussed./ transcript (http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050930IT.htm)
Thursday, September 29th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050929.ram) Milosevic re-examines Bozidar Delic. A video of Paddy Ashdown with uniformed KLA members is shown. Delic spends much time refuting claims from Ashdown’s March 15, 2002 testimony. After Delic’s testimony, Bogoljub Janicevic, former chief of the Urosevac SUP, resumes his examination-in-chief. He mostly discusses the disciplining of Serbian police officers when they committed crimes. / transcript
Wednesday, September 28th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050928.ram) General Delic is re-cross-examined. Much of the day is spent discussing Paddy Ashdown’s location in the mountains when he witnessed certain things. Initially, he said he was in Albania, but he has corrected himself and said he was in Yugoslavia. The prosecution and Delic argue over his testimony. / transcript
Thursday, September 22nd - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050922.ram) Bogoljub Janicevic continues his testimony. He discusses the history of repression in Kosovo. He also speaks of the KLA’s plans to threated Kosovo’s Albanian population. He spends most of the day explaining the structure and composition of the KLA. / transcript
Wednesday, September 21st - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050921.ram) The re-examination of General Bozidar Delic continues with Delic discussing the supposed impossibility of Paddy Ashdown’s March 2002 testimony. Much of the day is spent discussing ties between the KLA and NATO. Next, Col. Bogoljub Janicevic, a Kosovo-Serb who was the chief of the Urosevac and Pristina SUPs, is called to the stand. He discusses Albanian Nationalism in Kosovo dating back to the late sixties. / transcript
Tuesday, September 20th - 09:00 - 13:45 (http://hague.bard.edu/video/icty_env.20050920.ram) Vojislav Seselj begins his re-examination. Milosevic and Seselj scoff at the concept of a joint criminal enterprise. They also try to prove that pre-war propaganda distributed by Croats and the Bosnian-Muslims was the true reason for Serbian agitation. Afterwards, General Bozidar Delic is called to the stand to finish his re-examination. He continues to rebuke Paddy Ashdowns testimony from March 2002. Also discussed is the so-called “Atlantic Brigade”, a group of Americans fighting with the KLA. / transcript (http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050920IT.htm)

Didn't see this before but can't say I'm surprised. British Member of Parliament, western diplomat checking KLA weapon, maybe he would buy them a new one if that one wasn't good enough to kill my people.

Anyway, nice of you V.I.D. for posting this, things like this are very good for Serbia, I dont think we will get some new "friends" in the west but at least the intelligent ones will see the sleaziness behind all noble, peaceful, respectable operations like "merciful angel" that brought demise on Serbia and killed Serbs.

And we, Serbs are the demons. Well, thank you, coming from you, I prefer if you don't say nice things about us, we must be drug dealing terrorist if you do.

RWR

10-24-2008, 01:03 AM

It's your country, you should know that. 14 December 1995

If Serbs decide that they don't like your union anymore they have the same right to separate just like you separated from Yugoslavia. If they decide to do it on their own or with the help of somebody else it's up to them.

Before you start posting ignorant crap please educate yourself first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

BiH was was Republic in SFRJ and historical constant in more or less same territorial borders for 1000 years (Banate, Kingdom, Ottoman province, A.U province, Socialist Republic) before being recognized as independent and sovereign Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in April 6, 1992 .
December 14, 1995 is date of singing Dayton Agreement...nothing more.
RS is product of genocide, without history or tradition, its funny borders are frozen frontlines from 1995 and its ethnic composition consequence of war crimes.

Before the war.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Ethnic_relations_1991.GIF

After the war.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/DemoBIH2006aa.PNG

The Balkan

10-24-2008, 01:48 AM

Before you start posting ignorant crap please educate yourself first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

BiH was was Republic in SFRJ and historical constant in more or less same territorial borders for 1000 years (Banate, Kingdom, Ottoman province, A.U province, Socialist Republic) before being recognized as independent and sovereign Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in April 6, 1992 .
December 14, 1995 is date of singing Dayton Agreement...nothing more.
RS is product of genocide, without history or tradition, its funny borders are frozen frontlines from 1995 and its ethnic composition consequence of war crimes.

Before the war.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Ethnic_relations_1991.GIF

After the war.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/DemoBIH2006aa.PNG

It's worth mentioning , that 1991 map shows majorities by municipality. We are the biggest group and were then too but we look "less" on the map cuz we are all concentrated in the cities while they had more of the rural areas. Hence why they held so much. Provly leftover from the Ottoman system of Serb peasants and Bosniak overlords p-)

Here is map by towns and cities in 1991.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a7/1991_BiH_towns.svg/662px-1991_BiH_towns.svg.png

V.I.D.

10-24-2008, 02:34 AM

The Balkan, you know all too well that Bosniak "overlords" are nothing but islamicized Serbs or Croats (from 15th to 19th century), so get off the high horse my fellow countryman.

Stefan850, these videos and other facts brought to the light today (such as Finnish investigator's confession on "Racak massacre") will likely never change the skewed world picture of "evil Serbs" anytime soon, but those that are willing to put pieces together will know how much BS was there in satanization of one whole nation. We should let the facts speak for themselves. In this case, neutrality of Office of High Representative in Bosnia/Herzegovina should be questioned. Guess who was holding this high position in Bosnia (an equivalent of president of the country, only forced on population by their "neutral friends" in EU/USA)from 2002 to 2006?
Of course, His Highness "good luck to you KLA guys" Paddy Ashdown. Neutrality, huh?

Royal

10-24-2008, 03:29 AM

The Balkan

10-24-2008, 03:36 AM

The Balkan, you know all too well that Bosniak "overlords" are nothing but islamicized Serbs or Croats (from 15th to 19th century), so get off the high horse my fellow countryman.

Ah here we go with the flaiming and insults eh?

Whatever you say. If saying and beliving that gives you a some kind of nationalistic hard on, then by all means knock yourself out. You can say it all you want, it won't become reality or change anything ;) It's what you've been trained to recite, I understand.

But make sure to say it somewhere else, since this thread isn't about national identification 600 years ago.

tea drinker

10-24-2008, 04:21 AM

From your very own source (ICTY transcript)...

http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050930IT.htm

Oh dear. Not quite the damning indictment you cliam :(

Couldn't agree more about Holbrooke though. The fact that he'll be back if Ombama gets in is terrifying.

Maybe, but he *kinda* knew what was going on on, no? The story is somewhat out of context but even in Kosovo it must be unusual for a shepherd to use an AK rather than an old hunting rifle.

For Holbrooke, it's bad news to have him back. I think the fact that Powell is there ... might rein him in a bit. I'm sure Powell is out to right his image.

Stefan850

10-24-2008, 04:59 AM

But make sure to say it somewhere else, since this thread isn't about national identification 600 years ago.

You started the identification of who was what 600 years ago and this thread isn't about that.

Make sure you say it somewhere else next time or els...!!!!
:roll:

The Balkan

10-24-2008, 05:10 AM

No I didn`t. If me saying the very word makes you go into a rant over it, that`s pretty scary. And sad. I stated a fact. Should`ve just said christians and muslims insted though, just to be more acurate, since thats all that really mattered then and how people were divided. anyway you dont have to think of me as anything other then a proud bosnian. thats all that matters here.

Royal

10-24-2008, 06:03 AM

Djece, djece...

Maybe, but he *kinda* knew what was going on on, no? The story is somewhat out of context but even in Kosovo it must be unusual for a shepherd to use an AK rather than an old hunting rifle.

I found an MG34 and a PPSh 41 in a shepherds shack once. An M70 is bugger all anywhere in the Balkans.

Lokos

10-24-2008, 09:16 AM

I found an MG34 and a PPSh 41 in a shepherds shack once. An M70 is bugger all anywhere in the Balkans.

Funny story, the inheritance my grandfather left me consisted of a Remington sniper rifle (Model 700 IIRC)...

My first school excursion was to the barracks of the Uzice Corps...

One of my most poignant teenage memories was of a neighbor returning home one day with a MANPAD in the trunk of his car. He showed us how to use it...

Another one was of my uncle coming back from border duty around '94 with a leg injury. His M70 and sidearm were both lying on the bedside drawer, unsecured and inviting. You can bet your butt I sat there watching them, with the temptation to play soldier almost overpowering me.

It was a very militarized society many of us grew up in. Small wonder the army was the most trusted state institution in Yugoslavia during the 90s.

Memories!

L.

V.I.D.

10-24-2008, 01:20 PM

From your very own source (ICTY transcript)...

http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050930IT.htm

Oh dear. Not quite the damning indictment you cliam :(

Couldn't agree more about Holbrooke though. The fact that he'll be back if Ombama gets in is terrifying.

I don't know Royal....I trust facts in life. And from what I'm seeing here, the man is clearly all friendly and advisory to a bunch of KLA. The fact that he put a footnote in his book ("oh boy, maybe these guys are that lot that shoots Yugoslav cops and civilians"), frankly, could be just covering his ass. I don't believe he was neutral in his role in the Balkans, but you're free to believe whatever you prefer. Of course, Lord Ashdown is a minor player comparing to Richard Holbrooke, I have yet to see what role he'll play in Obama's administration.