Immigration is a crisis of our own making

[Ordie]

Immigration is a crisis of our own making

Ruben Navarrette Jr., San Diego Union-Tribune (postchat@aol.com)
Wednesday, October 22, 2008
It is remarkable that so many of those who rail against illegal immigration don't really understand the terrain. This includes folks at Washington think tanks who write about immigration without interacting with actual immigrants, TV commentators who remake themselves for higher ratings, and opportunistic politicians who spin anger and prejudice into votes.
At the other end of the spectrum are those who actually know what they're talking about. They have logged long hours and done their homework, which might include interviewing real people - hundreds of them on both sides of the border.
They include Douglas Massey, a Princeton sociology professor and nationally acclaimed expert on immigration who for more than 20 years has monitored the U.S.-Mexico border, tracked immigration patterns, chronicled the Mexican migrant experience, and studied both the Mexican communities that cast off migrants and the U.S. communities that receive them.
Massey recently shared some of what he has learned in a lecture sponsored by the Center for U.S.-Mexican Studies at UC San Diego. If there is one thing about which he is absolutely sure, it is that we're not facing an invasion but rather what he calls "a crisis of our own making."
It's not just that Americans are hiring illegal immigrants or at least tolerating the practice. It is also that, throughout this nation's history, businesses and government have indirectly facilitated the entry of millions of illegal immigrants through recruitment efforts and ineffective enforcement strategies. The government doesn't directly recruit illegal immigrants. But when it allows the recruitment of legal ones - through guest-worker programs - millions of undocumented, including workers' relatives, tend to follow.
As Massey explained, the history of U.S. immigration policy is a push-pull saga of recruiting immigrants when we need workers, then deporting them when jobs are scarce. The immigrants are acting in a totally rational manner, going north for better-paying jobs. Someone who makes $7 a day in Mexico can make $70 a day picking fruit in California or $140 a day doing construction in North Carolina. As Massey sees it, it's Americans who can't decide whether they want to get rid of illegal immigrants or hire more of them.
"It's the gringos who can't get their act together," he said.
The recruitment campaign started in 1907, when agricultural growers launched private efforts to go into Mexico and ensnare low-skilled workers for stints that resembled indentured servitude. There was more recruiting in 1917, when the labor supply was depleted during World War I, and it continued through the 1920s. The 1930s brought the Great Depression and a national unemployment rate that hit 25 percent - and with it, massive deportation raids that resulted in the forced removal of even U.S.-born Latinos. World War II meant more labor shortages and thus more recruitment in the 1940s. The result: the Bracero program, which matched up millions of Mexican agricultural workers with U.S. employers. In the 1950s, President Dwight Eisenhower unleashed "Operation Wetback," as it was called - a roundup by federal and local authorities of both Mexicans and U.S.-born Mexican Americans.
But to solve the labor shortage that the sweep created in the years that followed, the U.S. government quietly recruited a new batch of guest workers. And, as tends to happen, more illegal immigrants followed. They have been coming ever since.
Massey has no more confidence in the new fad - the multibillion-dollar initiative to build walls and fences along the border.
"It's worse than useless," he said of the enforcement strategy. "It's counterproductive."
Fortifying the border enriches and emboldens immigrant smugglers by letting them charge more to bring their human cargo into the United States. In the early 1990s, immigrant smugglers charged migrants $500 a head. Now, it's up to $3,000.
Besides, Massey notes, building fortresses makes it less likely that illegal immigrants on this side of the border will go home for family visits because they're reluctant to pay the higher price to come back. That's a bad trend. For generations, immigrants have gone home with regularity, and some would stay there. Now they simply stay in the United States - and, as a result, the undocumented population increases. And so, Massey argues, we've cut the family ties that - more than revolving-door deportations or ordinances banning taco trucks - represented our best hope of shrinking the number of undocumented in the United States.
What a brilliant system we've concocted. Except for that minor glitch where it achieves the opposite of what we set out to accomplish.


Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/22/ED1I13LJB4.DTL&type=printable

[ren0312]

Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/22/ED1I13LJB4.DTL&type=printable

It depends on your definition of the word success, the West Bank separation barrier and the Berlin Wall can certainly be defined as a success, although they were only 99.99% effective. The only past immigration wave which comes close to matching the recent Latino immigration was the German immigration, which unlike the present wave of immigration from Latin America(which happened in the course of 2 decades), happened over the course of centuries, from the late 1600's up until the beginning of the 20th century, Irish(not Scots-Irish) and Italian immigration, altough substantial was mostly confined to the big cities, an intresting statistic is that certain parts of the South West that had a Mexican majority population dating back to the Mexican American war had managed to retain a majority Spanish speaking population, despite being a part of the United States for the past 150 years.

[NimDod]

It depends on your definition of the word success, the West Bank separation barrier and the Berlin Wall can certainly be defined as a success, although they were only 99.99% effective.

the west bank separation barrier was not built in order to stop illigal immigration, but to stop infiltrators/terrorists/ect.
people with work permits enter and leave every day.
one of the results of building the west bank separation barrier was a huge decline in burglaries and car theft in areas that the fence was built and rise in places that it wasnt.

I dont think that building a wall could stop illigal immigration, but it could channel it to certin areas.

[Ordie]

It depends on your definition of the word success, the West Bank separation barrier and the Berlin Wall can certainly be defined as a success, although they were only 99.99% effective. The only past immigration wave which comes close to matching the recent Latino immigration was the German immigration, which unlike the present wave of immigration from Latin America(which happened in the course of 2 decades), happened over the course of centuries, from the late 1600's up until the beginning of the 20th century, Irish(not Scots-Irish) and Italian immigration, altough substantial was mostly confined to the big cities, an intresting statistic is that certain parts of the South West that had a Mexican majority population dating back to the Mexican American war had managed to retain a majority Spanish speaking population, despite being a part of the United States for the past 150 years.

You are forgetting the mass migration of Chinese in the 19th century who were credited for building the Transcontinental Railway and local fishing industry on the West Coast. Chilean miners arrived during the Gold Rush period. Filipino, Japanese and Sikh immigrants arrived to work in California's and Hawaii's agriculture sectors. Salavdorian and Nicacraguan stevedores in San Francisco unloading and processing coffee beans in the 1920s.

In fact Filipino laborers are credited for organizing the United Farm Workers Union which was eventually led by Cesar Chavez. Today we have new immigrants from South Asia in Silicon Valley adding another chapter to our history and melting pot.

[vinny_121_ND]

Today we have new immigrants from South Asia in Silicon Valley adding another chapter to our history and melting pot.

In Ottawa/Kanata (silicon valley north), it's the other way around. Jobs are being offshored to India and China. My dad works for nortel and the company is making new job cuts fueled by the economic crisis. Nobody in high tech is hiring anymore.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

In Ottawa/Kanata (silicon valley north), it's the other way around. Jobs are being offshored to India and China. My dad works for nortel and the company is making new job cuts fueled by the economic crisis. Nobody in high tech is hiring anymore.

Your dad should go contracts, surprised anyone in IT is still not.

[vinny_121_ND]

Your dad should go contracts, surprised anyone in IT is still not.

My dad's 60. He's the most senior software engineer at nortel, and also very very loyal to the company. All his other colleagues of his generation are retired or laid off. Until he's laid off, he won't work for anyone else.

[Hot Lips]

Nice spin...


The government doesn't directly recruit illegal immigrants. But when it allows the recruitment of legal ones - through guest-worker programs - millions of undocumented, including workers' relatives, tend to follow [illegally].
As Massey explained, the history of U.S. immigration policy is a push-pull saga of recruiting [legal] immigrants when we need workers, then deporting [illegals] them when [they get caught] jobs are scarce. The [illegal] immigrants are acting in a totally [willfully illegal] rational manner

It's "rational" not "illegal" to break the law. :cantbeli:



If you leave your purse unattended and I "find" all your cash, it's was logical for me to think you don't care that much about your money and use it for my own benefit. :|

[Ordie]

If you leave your purse unattended and I "find" all your cash, it's was logical for me to think you don't care that much about your money and use it for my own benefit. :|

Only if you continue and willing to pay for boneless chicken thighs at $3.00 per lbs..

But if you want to kick every immigrant out then you must be willing to pay $10.00 per lbs. (Unless you want imported cheap processed frozen chickens from China)

[Hot Lips]

We don't have to kick every immigrant out. Just the criminals.


I'll pay or live on bologna.

[Ordie]

I'll pay or live on bologna.

Bologna is made out of pork.

Somali Muslim meatpackers, (who replaced deported Mexican meatpackers) won't touch that stuff.

You might as well buy the imported bologna from China.

[Hot Lips]

Thanks for the news flash. Bologna, Yes. Criminals, No.

[ren0312]

Bologna is made out of pork.

Somali Muslim meatpackers, (who replaced deported Mexican meatpackers) won't touch that stuff.

You might as well buy the imported bologna from China.

Bologna>LA

[Ordie]

delete......

[Ordie]

Thanks for the news flash. Bologna, Yes. Criminals, No.
http://www.nutrientfacts.com/searchfood.exe?var=5&word=Bologna+Pork&Multiplier=1&Units=Pounds&x=16&y=2

[Hot Lips]

So now you're attacking the bologna you want illegals to pack for us? ;)

[LaoSexMachine]

For generations, immigrants have gone home with regularityLegal or illegal?


What a brilliant system we've concocted. Except for that minor glitch where it achieves the opposite of what we set out to accomplish. Rueben supports illegal immigration.

[Nano]

A good article that brings up good points and the dirty truth of our purportedly "inconsistent immigration policy". The immigration policy of this country has been what it always has been as noted in the article ship in illegals/legal immigrants for their servitude then ship them out once they've run their usefulness to our companies.

Until all Anglo-Saxon dominated American companies start paying real huge non-tax deductible fines per illegal that is found to have been working making/assisting their products then the government and people who support this continued system of quasi slavery can stop their act of upholding the law cause I am not buying it. I'd like a real honest debate on this issue and have it be dealt in the manner it truly is and stop hiding behind "the law" that is written up and used by our corporations for their gain and our own bondage to them through our representatives.

Just like Ron Paul said immigration/illegal immigration is an economic issue. Americans need to face it they've been had for a long time and continue to be used to perpetuate this system. As an objective outside observer it is a marvel of a system of self controls that is guided by economic need and profit margins. Few Americans care to understand it or believe it ,but our immigration policy/system is what is it because it was meant to be what it is for corporate gain not ours.

[Ordie]

Legal or illegal?

Both.

I've worked in the restaurant business as a teen (early 1980's). The guys in the back (dishwashers, food preps, and cooks) were mostly undocumented from Durango. Many went home to Mexico once or twice a year to visit families. Many came back to the US on the same routes with the same coyotes. None of them had spouces or kids in the US.

When the wall went up, they started to send for thier families or found American spouces. That's when we started to see the impacts at local schools and municipalities. Many have not been back to Mexico in years.

Immigration is an economic externality where the demand for local labor cannot catch up with the demands of the market. If there are arbitrary limits that does not take into consideration of the economic realities, then you will have informal means to meet that demand.

or

Seek labor outside the limits by producing in other countries.

We are already seeing this at the local stores (especially COSTCO). We have onions from Peru, watermelons from Mexico, cucumbers from Canada, apples and grapes from Chile, Alaskan salmon processed in China.

The more we place restriction on immigrant labor the more we become dependent on other countries to feed us.

[LaoSexMachine]

Both.

I've worked in the restaurant business as a teen (early 1980's). The guys in the back (dishwashers, food preps, and cooks) were mostly undocumented from Durango. Many went home to Mexico once or twice a year to visit families. Many came back to the US on the same routes with the same coyotes. None of them had spouces or kids in the US.

When the wall went up, they started to send for thier families or found American spouces. That's when we started to see the impacts at local schools and municipalities. Many have not been back to Mexico in years.

Immigration is an economic externality where the demand for local labor cannot catch up with the demands of the market. If there are arbitrary limits that does not take into consideration of the economic realities, then you will have informal means to meet that demand.

or

Seek labor outside the limits by producing in other countries.

We are already seeing this at the local stores (especially COSTCO). We have onions from Peru, watermelons from Mexico, cucumbers from Canada, apples and grapes from Chile, Alaskan salmon processed in China.

The more we place restriction on immigrant labor the more we become dependent on other countries to feed us.

We don't depend on other countries for food. That is an excuse of people who support illegal immigration. It's all about maximizing profit. You make it sound like we are going to starve or something.

[Supe]

It will be interesting to see what happens if US economic woes deepen. Will increasing numbers of migrants move to US in order to avoid the even worse scenarios to play out in their home country or will as has been maintained by others, that they will flock back home? If things get really bad (another Great Depression), the US govt may well be forced to make that decision for them.

Massey is right in part that it is a problem created by US govts through the years but he's wrong to suggest that fences are a bad idea - as his conclusion appears to omit other attractive reasons for physical barriers. A physical barrier represents a psychological statement 'this is my country, that is yours'. It cements the idea that your crossing a territorial boundary - much like a fence surrounding a home. We know that as soon as we cross that threshold (even if at a subconscious level) we are acting on the terms of the homeowner and are guests. It also acts as a barrier to criminal elements. We've all seen/read the news of Mexican law enforcement battling cartels and other criminal elements.

From this barrier - technologies and resources can be used as base points for surveillance and to constrict movements. It forces those who want to come over illegally to go through extra effort and expense - and this by itself will be enough of disincentive for people to make that journey.

Of course no barrier is immune to being circumvented but Massey's 'solution' of don't bother it's too hard/expensive only holds water if you look at it through a narrow focus. I'm a believer in the nation state and territorial sovereignty. Anything that undermines the state (and hence collective stability/security and ability for proper planning), such as undocumented migration/lax enforcement of borders, I view as Govt neglect and should be seen as an act of criminality by a Govt if it does not act in accordance to the responsibilities and mandate that its citizens have elected them on.

[ren0312]

We don't depend on other countries for food. That is an excuse of people who support illegal immigration. It's all about maximizing profit. You make it sound like we are going to starve or something.

Do you agree with Europe's Common Agricultural Policy?

[LaoSexMachine]

Do you agree with Europe's Common Agricultural Policy?


Enlighten me. I'm too lazy to read about it.

[Supe]

We don't depend on other countries for food. That is an excuse of people who support illegal immigration. It's all about maximizing profit. You make it sound like we are going to starve or something.


Well if the doom and gloomers are correct and increased transport burden (peak oil, economic downturn, lower purchasing power) of shipping rises to a threshold where it is not economical to ship food from <insert nation> than US food production will increase. US will always be able to feed its citizens.

Ordie. US has a labor pool (not migrants) but the economics for US citizens to work those jobs don't make sense when undocumented labour is being used to depress wages. Morally, any US company using undocumented labour and paying them a pittance (below minimum wage) should legally be made examples of. Name and shame too. Trickle effect upshot - it will no longer make sense to employ undocumented migrants. You can then through a proper work migration policy - ensure that workers are looked after (at least minimum wage) and are insured for basic medical. Also US citizens would not have to race to the bottom to compete for a dollar in the pocket. The downside. Food would go up in price. But then, living off the backs of virtual slave labour says that pricing was artificially low in the first place. Ideally, food should be viewed at a much higher premium anyway. Ever see those food fights on a comedy? - then think of those starving or malnourished (yes, even in the US) around the globe, and it really isn't that funny.

[Ordie]

We don't depend on other countries for food. That is an excuse of people who support illegal immigration. It's all about maximizing profit. You make it sound like we are going to starve or something.

Its the same as oil. We want food to be cheap, therefore we buy from cheap food imports. Thus there are no incentive for local growers to continue working.

But what happens when a famine or food shortages occurs at supplier countries? they stop exports and horde. All of a sudden no onions from Peru, no apples from Chile etc......

My argument is to make a case for more legalized immigration to keep our country food supply secure at home, allow for increased investments and become more competitive.

[Hot Lips]

I think it's pretty clear what your arguement is for Ordie and it's not food or anything of the kind. You can spin the issue any way you like. We survived before 11 million illegals crossed the borders. We'll continue to survive. It's the guys at the top that will ultimately have to forego lining their greedy pockets with bloated profits they aren't sinking into technology, following employment laws instead of using criminals to undermind our laws and citizens by reinvesting in our legal workforce, etc. And we can always welcome in legal immigrants as needed.

[LaoSexMachine]

Its the same as oil. We want food to be cheap, therefore we buy from cheap food imports. Thus there are no incentive for local growers to continue working.

But what happens when a famine or food shortages occurs at supplier countries? they stop exports and horde. All of a sudden no onions from Peru, no apples from Chile etc......

My argument is to make a case for more legalized immigration to keep our country food supply secure at home, allow for increased investments and become more competitive.

To keep our food secure is to support our farmers. We can produce our own onions. We get apples from Washington. "Hey, let's have amnesty and look the other way so our food is 'secure'." Like I said it's an excuse for people who support illegal immigration.

[Ordie]

Well if the doom and gloomers are correct and increased transport burden (peak oil, economic downturn, lower purchasing power) of shipping rises to a threshold where it is not economical to ship food from <insert nation> than US food production will increase. US will always be able to feed its citizens.

Ordie. US has a labor pool (not migrants) but the economics for US citizens to work those jobs don't make sense when undocumented labour is being used to depress wages. Morally, any US company using undocumented labour and paying them a pittance (below minimum wage) should legally be made examples of. Name and shame too. Trickle effect upshot - it will no longer make sense to employ undocumented migrants. You can then through a proper work migration policy - ensure that workers are looked after (at least minimum wage) and are insured for basic medical. Also US citizens would not have to race to the bottom to compete for a dollar in the pocket. The downside. Food would go up in price. But then, living off the backs of virtual slave labour says that pricing was artificially low in the first place. Ideally, food should be viewed at a much higher premium anyway. Ever see those food fights on a comedy? - then think of those starving or malnourished (yes, even in the US) around the globe, and it really isn't that funny.

Good point.

In this economy its hard to determine if the unemployed are willing to work on the farm for the same value of an unemployment check.

[SBL]

Good point.

In this economy its hard to determine if the unemployed are willing to work on the farm for the same value of an unemployment check.
I can think of at least two solutions to that.

[Calanen]

I can think of at least two solutions to that.

Welfare for Work - has to be the go. If you are physically capable of working, you work. Then you get your welfare. If you want to bludge, you get nada.

[Ordie]

To keep our food secure is to support our farmers. We can produce our own onions. We get apples from Washington.

The problem is there's no one picking the apples in Washington State. That's why the growers in Washington are setting up shop in Chile and Argentina. They can meet the demands of the US market, without the hassles from the INS with higher profit margins.

Next time you go to COSTCO, find out where the apples come from.

[ren0312]

Both.

I've worked in the restaurant business as a teen (early 1980's). The guys in the back (dishwashers, food preps, and cooks) were mostly undocumented from Durango. Many went home to Mexico once or twice a year to visit families. Many came back to the US on the same routes with the same coyotes. None of them had spouces or kids in the US.

When the wall went up, they started to send for thier families or found American spouces. That's when we started to see the impacts at local schools and municipalities. Many have not been back to Mexico in years.

Immigration is an economic externality where the demand for local labor cannot catch up with the demands of the market. If there are arbitrary limits that does not take into consideration of the economic realities, then you will have informal means to meet that demand.

or

Seek labor outside the limits by producing in other countries.

We are already seeing this at the local stores (especially COSTCO). We have onions from Peru, watermelons from Mexico, cucumbers from Canada, apples and grapes from Chile, Alaskan salmon processed in China.

The more we place restriction on immigrant labor the more we become dependent on other countries to feed us.

One thing I noticed is that even at full employment, the US seems to still still have a higher unemplyment rate than Nordic countries and the East Asian tiger economies, a 5% unemployment rate for the US is usually regarded as being effectively a full employment rate, while for the UK it is 3%, and for Switzerland it is 2%.

[Ordie]

One thing I noticed is that even at full employment, the US seems to still still have a higher unemplyment rate than Nordic countries and the East Asian tiger economies, a 5% unemployment rate for the US is usually regarded as being effectively a full employment rate, while for the UK it is 3%, and for Switzerland it is 2%.

Anything below 4% unemployment are unemployable.
Featherbedding is common in Eurpoean countries. (especially in France)

[SBL]

Welfare for Work - has to be the go. If you are physically capable of working, you work. Then you get your welfare. If you want to bludge, you get nada.
Exactly what I was thinking.

[Calanen]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Id probably also quarantine welfare payments so they can only be used on rent, food, kid things - rather than drugs and gambling also.

If you want money for drugs and gambling - earn it your damn self.

[ren0312]

Well if the doom and gloomers are correct and increased transport burden (peak oil, economic downturn, lower purchasing power) of shipping rises to a threshold where it is not economical to ship food from <insert nation> than US food production will increase. US will always be able to feed its citizens.

Ordie. US has a labor pool (not migrants) but the economics for US citizens to work those jobs don't make sense when undocumented labour is being used to depress wages. Morally, any US company using undocumented labour and paying them a pittance (below minimum wage) should legally be made examples of. Name and shame too. Trickle effect upshot - it will no longer make sense to employ undocumented migrants. You can then through a proper work migration policy - ensure that workers are looked after (at least minimum wage) and are insured for basic medical. Also US citizens would not have to race to the bottom to compete for a dollar in the pocket. The downside. Food would go up in price. But then, living off the backs of virtual slave labour says that pricing was artificially low in the first place. Ideally, food should be viewed at a much higher premium anyway. Ever see those food fights on a comedy? - then think of those starving or malnourished (yes, even in the US) around the globe, and it really isn't that funny.

+1, Japanese wages shot up in the 1980's when a slower population growth rate caused the working age popualtion to grow at a slower rate.

[Ordie]

Exactly what I was thinking.

It's never going to happen.

I don't think the unemployed American will last no more than two hours of farm labor.

[Calanen]

One thing I noticed is that even at full employment, the US seems to still still have a higher unemplyment rate than Nordic countries and the East Asian tiger economies, a 5% unemployment rate for the US is usually regarded as being effectively a full employment rate, while for the UK it is 3%, and for Switzerland it is 2%.

There is a huge underemployment and hidden employment rate, you only show in the statistics if you are looking. If you arent looking - you disappear off the stats, or if you are only doing part-time work, but would want more if you could get it.

[SBL]

It's never going to happen.

I don't think the unemployed American will last no more than two hours of farm labor.
Why? Would he shrivel up and die?

I imagine a great many people would find themselves awfully motivated once they realized their checks depended on it.

[ren0312]

It's never going to happen.

I don't think the unemployed American will last no more than two hours of farm labor.

The US has a huge problem with overweight people right?

[Hot Lips]

Why? Would he shrivel up and die?

I imagine a great many people would find themselves awfully motivated once they realized their checks depended on it.

Of course, because you know Americans are too snobbish or too lazy to do the work. :roll:

As for not lasting 2 hours. I worked 10 hour days in 90 degree weather in jeans, hiking boots, and flanels, lugging a heavy shovel and canteen up and down corn fields all summer 5-6 days a week. $10/hour wasn't much for the effort involved, but there are people willing to do it. But illegals likely aren't making $10/hour and probably not OT either... and that's why they get hired. Not for their vastly superior work ethic as they would like you to believe, but their willingness to ignore our laws.

[Supe]

The US has a huge problem with overweight people right?

That's a consequence of food being abundant and cheap. Also of course, the increased sedentary lifestyle of modern living. Not helped by urban sprawl and dependence on autos, centralisation of shopping and amenities. Back in the days, the average person could pop to their local with a 10min walk. Now it probably takes that long in car. I remember when it was rare to see a fat person. I still remember the first morbidly obese person I saw (back in the 80's) and now overweight people are common and so ditto morbidly obese.

At the moment, the disincentive to work a labouring job for an unemployed US citizen is too high. (race to the bottom + cheapest wins = economic suicide) While current conditions prevail and labouring work is done by illegals then US citizen is essentially discouraged from working those sorts of jobs (and I don't blame them). Maximum effort for zero gain. From a hiring perspective, you take a calculated risk to hire illegals to reduce your costs to fatten profit margins and to stay competitive with other outfits doing the same shonky practices. But with poor enforcement and weak consensus at the Govt level, these guys can afford to take the risk.

I don't like the idea of permanent underclasses who do not have an opportunity to get out and make a better life. This is why more vision at the political level is required because ultimately, only politicians can make the relevant changes in law and emphasise enforcement of existing laws. Such discussions really only touch the tip of the iceberg but you have to start somewhere. And the starting point is - put a stop to illegal migration or at least put the brakes and slow it down. Developing sound migration policies too, that are responsible and serve the best interests of its citizens.

Migration is a good thing when managed properly. If its a free for all, then its a disaster in the making.

[Ordie]

I imagine a great many people would find themselves awfully motivated once they realized their checks depended on it.

Motivated to commit robbery.

[Ordie]

Of course, because you know Americans are too snobbish or too lazy to do the work. :roll:

As for not lasting 2 hours. I worked 10 hour days in 90 degree weather in jeans, hiking boots, and flanels, lugging a heavy shovel and canteen up and down corn fields all summer 5-6 days a week. $10/hour wasn't much for the effort involved, but there are people willing to do it. But illegals likely aren't making $10/hour and probably not OT either... and that's why they get hired. Not for their vastly superior work ethic as they would like you to believe, but their willingness to ignore our laws.

The only people undocumented immigrants compete for jobs are high school drop-outs. If high school drop-outs had no competition it would only mean a $25 a week raise.

[Calanen]

It's never going to happen.

I don't think the unemployed American will last no more than two hours of farm labor.

You'd be surprised what people will be prepared to do if they are hungry.

[Calanen]

Motivated to commit robbery.

Nah that's bs man - and you can say that about the whole damn workforce, why arent I out robbing banks instead of working every day?

That said, I'd untie the cops hands from their balls so they can actually properly deal with crims, instead of having mountains of paperwork.

I'd also have lawyers in uniform as officers with police available on call, so they dont f*ck up the evidence they collect, which happens more times than you can poke a stick at. And it happens, because cops are expected to think like lawyers and they just arent. Thats why there should be some lawyers on the payroll to take statements, assist with the collection of evidence and the maintenance of evidence. Most cases get chucked out because the cops have fubared some part of the collection of evidence, or a warrant, or something like that. If they had a lawyer on the payroll to say 'Yeah do xx..or no dont do that' it would stop a lot of their problems.

It really is astonishing that here in Aus ( I know DAs in America get a lot more involved) you have cops wandering around without lawyers collecting evidence in serial killer cases, rapes, and multiple shootings. You only get one chance to get that stuff right, or the case is tossed.

[Ordie]

Making their dreams pan out

In restaurants around L.A., immigrants from Latin America who began as dishwashers learned the skills to become top chefs.
By Anna Gorman

October 24, 2008

Manny Diaz greets the servers and places the finishing touches on his daily special: Alaskan salmon on a bed of Moroccan couscous, finished with a passion fruit glaze.

"It's Friday, so let's sell lots of fish!"

As executive chef of Pacific Grille in downtown Los Angeles, Diaz designs the menu, directs a staff of eight and prepares meals for more than 100 customers every day.

It's a far cry from the first job he got after sneaking across the border in 1981: washing dishes.

It is no secret that in kitchens throughout Los Angeles, Mexican and Central American immigrants scrub pots, empty trash, clear tables and mop floors. But the news is what's happening at the oven. After decades of populating the lowest-paying jobs that require few skills and little English, the most ambitious of those immigrants are becoming top chefs at some of the most celebrated French, Asian and Italian restaurants.

"It breaks the stereotype of the role that Mexican immigrants play in our economy and in our industry," said Daniel Conway, spokesman for the California Restaurant Assn. "It shows there is a place for merit and hard work to pay off."

Many other California industries, including agriculture and garment manufacturing, employ disproportionate numbers of immigrants at entry levels. But few offer the wide range of opportunities that exist in restaurants, where determination and skill can still trump education in getting to the top.

Most of the chefs who started as dishwashers in some of the city's upscale restaurants have no formal culinary training but rather have spent years learning on the job. Diaz served a nearly 20-year apprenticeship.

Restaurateur Wolfgang Puck, himself an immigrant from Austria, judges the talent of his chefs by the quality of their meals.

"At the end of the day, what is on the plate is what's important, not what passport they carry," Puck said.

Growing up in Durango, Mexico, Diaz helped his father on the farm and his mother in the kitchen. He dried peppers, picked corn, fried fish and made tortillas.

The family had food on the table but not much else. So Diaz quit school after the sixth grade and started working. And when he turned 17, he followed a coyote through the mountains into the United States.

He didn't speak any English, but a friend helped him find a job washing dishes at a private club on Sunset Boulevard and Western Avenue. The work was hard: long hours and endless stacks of plates. He earned $3.25 an hour.

Diaz, 43, remembers the night he decided he wanted to become a chef. The club was catering an event. The chefs wore crisp white jackets and hats. The platters of chicken cordon bleu and sole fillet looked beautiful. The customers lavished praise.

"I said, 'Wow, I want to be like that,' " he said.

At home, he read cookbooks and experimented in the kitchen. At the restaurant, he watched the chefs and offered to help.

His speed and eagerness led to his first promotion to prep cook. From there, he moved up quickly -- cooking at a few upscale French restaurants in Silver Lake and finally landing as an executive chef at Nicola in 1999.

The restaurant, on South Figueroa Street, changed owners and its name to Pacific Grille but continues to attract a weekday lunch crowd of bankers, businessmen and lawyers.

"Since we have been here for so long, everyone knows Manny's name," said owner Aileen Watanabe.

The customers also know his dishes.

The Asian-Fusion menu on a Friday last month included a saffron shrimp risotto and miso black cod with udon noodles -- both Diaz's creations.

But when he got a special request for his carne asada, which marinates for two days, Diaz didn't hesitate to prepare it.

Then he stepped out of the kitchen to say hello to the customer.

"My famous carne asada," he said, greeting her by name. "How is it?"

"It's delicious," she said.

"Well, you guys enjoy your food," he said. "And save some room for dessert."

Across town in West Hollywood, another Mexican immigrant, Rodolfo Aguado, prepared 70 pounds of gnocchi for a special event. Flour covered his jeans and black tennis shoes.

Aguado, 29, who crossed the border illegally from Mexico as a teenager and grew up believing that only women belonged in the kitchen, found his first job as a dishwasher at Campanile restaurant.

"At the beginning, I cried," he said. "At a restaurant, the job is the worst."
When chef Suzanne Goin opened Lucques on Melrose, she took Aguado with her and gave him a job as prep cook. Now he is the sous, or assistant, chef and Goin's right-hand man.

"Whatever new challenge I gave him, he would really rise to the occasion and do it better than anybody else," said Goin, who helped Aguado get a work permit. "And for being the macho guy he was, he has a very elegant touch."

Just a few steps away, 21-year-old Gerardo Canseco washed pots, pans and silverware and occasionally looked over at Aguado.

"He gives me hope," said Canseco, who emigrated from Oaxaca two years ago. "Rodolfo told me that if I have the desire and I go to school to learn English, I could leave from here."

After the new year, Canseco will take the next step in following Aguado's path. He will become a prep cook.

For Salvadoran immigrant Rene Mata, being an executive chef at Wolfgang Puck's Chinois on Main in Santa Monica has opened him to a world he never imagined. He has cooked for Anthony Hopkins, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Geena Davis.

Mata, 51, immigrated to the United States in 1981 and started as a dishwasher at Pear Garden. He planned to return home after a few years, but then met his wife at the restaurant. Through her, Mata got a green card and later became a U.S. citizen.

In 1988, Mata was hired as a line cook at Chinois on Main and became executive chef last year. He and the previous executive chef, also Salvadoran, had redesigned the menu to include dishes such as stir-fried Sonoma lamb and sizzling Snake River wagyu steaks.

"This is, for me, a dream come true," he said. "But I never forget where I come from. When I see people like me, I try to help."

On a recent night after returning to his Glendora home, Diaz prepared a fresh vegetable pasta and bruschetta for his wife and two children, Denisse and Christian. The family sat beneath a painting of the Last Supper.

His wife, Veronica Tovalin-Diaz, said there are perks to being married to a chef.

"When I get home from work, dinner's on the table," she said.

The couple met 23 years ago when they were children in Mexico. Both got green cards after the 1986 amnesty and are now U.S. citizens.

After the meal, Diaz stood behind Denisse, 21, and helped her make dessert: banana flambé.

"Like this?" she asked as she scooped brown sugar into the pan.

"Put a little more, hija," Diaz responded before adding the bananas and a macadamia nut liqueur.

Denisse, a student at UC Riverside, said she is trying to learn some of her dad's dishes.

"If I don't learn to cook, it's not going to look so good, because he's a chef and my mom is a great cook," she said.

Between the restaurant and some extra consulting and catering, Diaz earns between $70,000 and $80,000 a year.

But like other immigrant chefs, Diaz has another goal.

He hopes someday to open his own restaurant, perhaps Asian fusion with a Latino touch. He even has a name picked out: Bistro La Provincia, a reminder of his childhood in Mexico.

But for now, Diaz keeps busy in the kitchen at Pacific Grille -- and at home.

As his wife and his children cleared the dinner table, Diaz leaned over the sink, picked up a sponge and began washing the dishes.

Source:http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-chefs24-2008oct24,0,1210810,print.story

[Hot Lips]

The only people undocumented immigrants compete for jobs are high school drop-outs. If high school drop-outs had no competition it would only mean a $25 a week raise.

Please share the basis of your calculations.

I'm not a high school drop out, Ordie. It was summer work for those in High School and College living in and around the mid-west. There were other organizations employing folks who simply needed to make ends meet as well. Even so, high-school drop outs who are citizens of this country deserve those jobs far more than these criminals hiding in our country.

American workers concerned about illegal immigration are not against "immigrants" as you constantly imply, but are concerned about our legal workforce and citizens... and rightfully so.

American workers are also not lazy as you have imply, nor do American workers think themselves too good for these jobs as you have also implied. American workers have worked hard and fought hard for the rights that protect their interests. Illegals come here to trample all over their rights for personal gain and loyalty to a foreign land.

And where exactly do you get your facts and stats from? Considering they are "undocumented".

You tend to state your "facts" as absolutes in an effort to spin your agenda and convince us that allowing anyone to cross our borders and undermine our laws and workforce is a good thing for us, but I can rarely confirm any of them. Illegals do impact employment, wages, taxes, and more of our citizens and most of us realize that.

[SBL]

Motivated to commit robbery.

Well, I reckon it would break down something like this:
One segment of welfare recipients would adjust to the situation, and continue to live off welfare. Some may even come to appreciate the fresh air and exercise.
Another segment would decide picking apples for their checks sucks, and would seek out other, perhaps better, means of employment.
A third segment, because there is no such thing as a perfect system or society, would indeed turn to "alternative" methods- crime- to make their cash.
Then again, I tend to think most of these would likely be involved in some sort of criminal enterprise already. Let the law deal with them.

If administered properly, the long-term benefits far outweigh any of the initial problems or unpopularity, imo.
It could even be run as an educational enterprise-- to teach people skills they need to move up in life. Even you couldn't say no to that.

[LaoSexMachine]

The only people undocumented immigrants compete for jobs are high school drop-outs. If high school drop-outs had no competition it would only mean a $25 a week raise.


Where do yo base this from?