D-Day, Chirac Style

[budanski]

D-Day, Chirac Style
How France and its allies liberated Germany, and other E.U. fantasies.
by Irwin M. Stelzer
The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/220plxeh.asp?pg=1)

RONALD REAGAN would be proud of George W. Bush. The president so many Americans are now so fondly remembering had to face down a contemptuous foreign policy establishment for years, when the received wisdom was that his policies were a failure. Reagan didn't win the Cold War without setbacks; Bush is now going through a similar rough period with his Middle East policy.

Early on, Ronald Reagan was told by the foreign policy establishment not to upset the status quo in Europe, but to stick to the established policy of containment. He declined, choosing to upset the long-standing policies of his predecessors and go for victory, rather than a standoff in the Cold War. George W. Bush was told by the foreign policy establishment not to upset the status quo in the Middle East, but to stick to the policy of containing Saddam and dealing amicably with the corrupt dictators of the oil-rich region. He declined, choosing instead to go to war to unseat Saddam, and to launch a program to destabilize the region by introducing democratic and economic reforms. Reagan won his bet that the Cold War could be won, and it now looks as if Bush could win his bet that a reformed Iraq can serve as a model for other countries in the Middle East.

But Bush's tenacity, even including his ability to wring from the Security Council a resolution endorsing his Iraq policy, will in the end do little to bring back what are misremembered as the good old days of multilateral cooperation. The president may have taken to calling German chancellor Gerhard Schröder by his first name, and to giving joint press conferences with Chirac, but those moves are designed in part to make nonsense of John Kerry's charge that America is isolated in the world. Franco-American relations remain just about where they were before the June 6 celebrations of the anniversary of the D-Day landings on the beaches of Normandy.

This being Chirac's home turf, he got to set the stage, using $54 million of his taxpayers' money to make certain that the backdrop showed him to advantage. And an ahistorical stage it was. The flags of nations that had nothing to do with the landings were represented, to the surprise of those of us who do not remember Sweden as supporting the Allied cause during World War II. Even the E.U. flag was on parade, although it did not exist on June 6, 1944.

Then, too, watching the weight accorded in the ceremonies to the French contribution on that historic and bloody day, one could easily get the impression that the French self-liberated. Never mind that de Gaulle was not told about the invasion until June 4, or that only 500 of the 156,000 troops involved in the invasion were Free French fighters (who fought very well), far fewer than were then in the service of the Nazis in Vichy France.

Chirac's inflation of the role of France in the D-Day invasion might be chalked up to national pride. But his insistence on including German chancellor Gerhard Schröder in the celebration, despite the fact that German troops were on the hills shooting down at the beaches on which the Allied troops landed, is another matter. The French president was eager to put on display a Franco-German alliance that is forged in steel, and is prepared to be the core of a united Europe that will counter the American hyperpower. Chirac made it clear that the invitation to the German chancellor was designed not only to trumpet the reconciliation between these historic enemies. It was also aimed at giving further impetus to the creation of a European superstate, populated by what Schröder in his remarks called "Citizens of Europe." This new superstate, France believes, will have the population, economic muscle, and geopolitical reach to rival the United States. And when the new European constitution is signed in a few days, the E.U. will become a legal entity, with its own supranational police, court system, foreign policy, and national song. No more unipolar world, say the French, even though the Europeans will continue to direct the bulk of their resources to their welfare states rather than to their militaries.

By way of reciprocation, Schröder thanked "France and its allies" and "Russia" for--in the words of CNN's Christiane Amanpour--"liberating" Germany from the Nazis. No mention of America. The implication that some foreign body had imposed Hitler on an unwilling German populace, and that France had "liberated" Germany probably came as no surprise to experienced CNN and Amanpour fans.

The Chirac-Schröder love-in was a response to attitudes in their own countries--attitudes not independent of the repeated attacks on America by the French and German leaders, skilled practitioners of the art of whipping up anti-American feeling. A poll in Le Figaro shows that 82 percent of the French believe the Germans are their best allies; fewer than half of those polled by Le Parisien believe that France has a moral debt to the United States. And we don't need polling data to know the extent of the anti-American feeling that Schröder rode to victory in the last election. Stefan Baron, editor in chief of Wirtschaftswoche (a business weekly) writes, "Schröder would like Germany--with the help of Europe--to become a moral power in opposition to America."

But Schröder has a problem. The Eastern European countries that have newly joined the E.U., and are about to take seats in the European parliament and positions in the eurocracy, are staunchly pro-American. As important, they provide promising markets for German products and attractive areas for German investment--facts that have not gone unnoticed by the German industrial community, which is unenthused by Schröder's anti-Americanism, not to mention his reneging on his promise to reform Germany's sclerotic economy.

Schröder also is angling for a permanent seat on the Security Council, a plum he is unlikely to get in almost any circumstance, and certain to be denied if he continues his direct attacks on the United States. So look for a major grovel from here on out, out of sight of German voters if possible. Already, U.S. officials are telling the American press that last week's meeting between Bush and Schröder was their best since the Iraq war. To which the cautious might reply that the Gerhard Schröder who meets privately with the American president in Sea Island, Georgia, is not the same Gerhard Schröder who harangues voters in Berlin, Germany.

As for Chirac, who refused to leave his perch on the top of the steps of the lysée Palace to welcome Bush, as is customary, he spent D-Day invoking the values of the U.N. A peaceful world order, he told the crowd in Normandy, is "symbolized and guaranteed today by the Charter of the United Nations"--the clear and intended message being that military action that is not authorized by the U.N. is somewhere between illegal and immoral. Bush was having none of it: He countered with references to "all the liberators who fought here"--the WWII coalition of the willing--and added, "America would do it again for our friends," contrasting U.S. reliability with France's more, er, pragmatic approach to world affairs.

Chirac's performance benefited mightily from his tolerance of wide chasms between his words and his deeds. "France will never forget what it owes America," the French president told some 6,000 D-Day veterans and assorted guests in his talk on Sunday in the Norman coastal town of Arromanches. A few days later he opposed America's requests for deeper involvement of NATO in the pacification of Iraq, saying such a move would not be "opportune"; fought to water down Bush's program to foster the growth of democratic institutions in the Middle East, stating that he opposed such "missionary" work; and responded with a vigorous "non" to Bush's plea that Iraq's creditors join America in forgiving "the vast majority" of the debts incurred by Iraq during Saddam Hussein's regime. (Within the G-8 nations, Japan is owed $4.1 billion, Russia $3.5 billion, France $3 billion, Germany $2.4 billion, and the United States $2.2 billion.) And just to make certain that none of the anti-American voters at home get any idea that he has moved too close to the Americans, Chirac decided to pass up President Reagan's funeral to keep an unspecified "previous commitment" in Europe.

Apparently, remembering one's debt to America, France's "steadfast friend and ally," and honoring that debt are two different things. Iraq's monetary debt to France must, Chirac insists, be paid, but France's moral debt to America remains in the need-not-repay file.

What has come to be the heads-of-state equivalent of Nathan Detroit's oldest established permanent floating crap game now moves on. It opened in Normandy, moved on to Sea Island, stopped briefly in Washington to honor the memory of the highest roller of them all, Ronald Reagan, and is headed for an E.U.-U.S. summit in Newmarket-on-Fergus in County Clare, Ireland, before taking a final bow at a NATO summit in Istanbul on June 27-28.

So far, George W. Bush and Tony Blair are the big winners, and Chirac the biggest loser. Bush, with Blair backing his play, bet that he could rake in support for the U.S.-U.K. policy in Iraq, and won unanimous Security Council backing for the new Iraqi government, headed by Ghazi al-Yawar, who was educated in America. Chirac, with Schröder blowing on his dice, lost, and found himself increasingly isolated as Bush's team emphasized the president's warm personal relationships with Blair, Russian president Vladimir Putin, Japanese prime minister Junichiro Koizumi, and Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi. Indeed, when asked at a press conference preceding the D-Day celebrations whether Chirac is likely to get an invitation to the Bush ranch at Crawford, Texas, the president responded that if Chirac wanted to go there to "stare at cows," he was more than welcome to do so.

Bush bet that he could get the G-8 to support the first step in an initiative to foster democracy in the despotic countries of the Middle East, Chirac bet he would roll snake eyes, only to watch a seven come up. Bush bet that he could get NATO involved in Iraq, Chirac bet that he couldn't, but lost the pot when he had to concede that if the Iraqis ask NATO for help, help would be provided.

On D-Day, in Normandy, the French president was playing with his own dice in his own house, and raked in a few chips--favorable television images but very little to put in the bank. A few days later, on Sea Island, the American president had the hot hand, and walked away with just about every pot, sharing his winnings with his ally, Tony Blair, by agreeing to an effort to revive the Middle East peace process. Not a bad week for a president and a prime minister who only a few weeks ago were being written off as real losers.

Irwin M. Stelzer is a contributing editor to The Weekly Standard, director of economic policy studies at the Hudson Institute, and a columnist for the Sunday Times (London).

[stephane from Paris]

Another excellent text Dubanski, i hopes it gave you an erection!!!

For information: Eisenhauer said that Resistance job made the work of 16 divisions for helping D Day!
200.000 free french were in the battle in Italy and South of France at the same time! The second DB of free french had to wait more than a month because Roosevelt wanted to put an american military administration in France and don't wanted French Free government!! De Gaule played fine on this affair!
Without Resistance (in France, Belgium,Holland) allieds never could come before Hitler has THE BOMB!

Vichy? 100.000 ultras right wingers who hate so much communists (in 1936 , socialists and communists won elections), and jews (most of them were socialists and still are here) that they prefer the new order !

btw Dubanski after read you so much time, excepting that you like jews, you're like those Vichy little brains right wingers!

The rest of the text is so biased that it not need to be commented!
I'll just add that if you could have a talk with a US veteran who was on the place you'll be surprising!

[Uncle Chô]

"Targeting France and the coward Europeans" - Budansky Style ;)

Congrats, you've got Stephane from Paris out of his bed in this early Sunday morning (Zulu time) :D

It could have been an interesting point (really) but aleas, everybody knows the Weekly Standart newspaper is part of the News Corporation media group (incl. Foxnews and The Sun to name a few) owned by Rupert Murdoch who made a personal affair to shot down France -and Chirac- into flames...

You should have left Texas and your computer to come to Normandy last week and see how Allied veterans and current military people were welcomed and cheered by us. This was real life, not political biased BS written 5000 km from here or seen on TV. :roll:

[ShotOver]

What's that? More frog's legs and snails to Stephane's table, i'll get the waiter right on it, maddam.

Good article Bud woot

[Midtown]

Another excellent text Dubanski, i hopes it gave you an erection!!!

For information: Eisenhauer said that Resistance job made the work of 16 divisions for helping D Day!
200.000 free french were in the battle in Italy and South of France at the same time! The second DB of free french had to wait more than a month because Roosevelt wanted to put an american military administration in France and don't wanted French Free government!! De Gaule played fine on this affair!
Without Resistance (in France, Belgium,Holland) allieds never could come before Hitler has THE BOMB!

Vichy? 100.000 ultras right wingers who hate so much communists (in 1936 , socialists and communists won elections), and jews (most of them were socialists and still are here) that they prefer the new order !

btw Dubanski after read you so much time, excepting that you like jews, you're like those Vichy little brains right wingers!

The rest of the text is so biased that it not need to be commented!
I'll just add that if you could have a talk with a US veteran who was on the place you'll be surprising!

Was pierre busy?

[SeanAshi]

"Targeting France and the coward Europeans" - Budansky StyleViva La Resistance!
http://images.qianlong.com/mmsource/images/2003/08/14/Adolf-Hitler-in-Paris.jpg

[AROUETLJ]

It's "Vive" not "Viva". If you're going to be sarcastic at least learn the language.

[Roger Rabbit]

Its a shame this day of remembering the fallen has to be abused by politicians with their own agenda.

[fdt]

WERLCOME GUYS...... Budanski and all You SSholes..... ; : : : :

[duck]

"RONALD REAGAN would be proud of George W. Bush. The president so many Americans are now so fondly remembering had to face down a contemptuous foreign policy establishment for years, when the received wisdom was that his policies were a failure. Reagan didn't win the Cold War without setbacks; Bush is now going through a similar rough period with his Middle East policy. "

Reagan had a clear vision and adversary while Dubya has managed to hurt American security interests in Afghanistan and Korea due to incapability of winning Allies in Iraq. If Reagan had pulled two armored divisions from West Germany to be stationed in Grenada he would have faced severe criticism from his own ranks too.

[Jehuty]

Only 177 Free French Forces were on D-DAy itself because the brits didn't want more (for a reason i forgot i should make some search), and hundreds of thousands participated both in the liberation and then the invasion of Germany (if someone has the precise number of mens and divisions involved in Provence and Normandy, it's welcome).For a journalist he doesn't look really informed.
The rest is just political opinion, i personally thought that Chirac has been able for a little bit to forget his stupid gaullist attitude (which doesn't mean his speech was apolitical) , and as a French i didn't really got a problem to see a small documentary about the Resistants, they deserve to be remember too.
As for Sweden, well if Russia and Germany are invited, then why not Sweden?



"Targeting France and the coward Europeans" - Budansky StyleViva La Resistance!
http://images.qianlong.com/mmsource/images/2003/08/14/Adolf-Hitler-in-Paris.jpg

You are pathetic.
And it's "Vive la Résistance!", at least spell it right.

[Freibier]

D-Day, Chirac Style
How France and its allies liberated Germany, and other E.U. fantasies.
by Irwin M. Stelzer
The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/220plxeh.asp?pg=1)

Blablabla
http://www.cheesebuerger.de/smilies/frech/7.gif

[stephane from Paris]

One more thing!!! A proof that or this journalist is totaly biased and just a poor journalist:
he says that Chirac invited Shroeder to worry US, but he don't say (or don't knows) that for the 50th anniversary of D Day, Helmut kohl (ex right wing prime minister) was invited too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He didn't come because the more right people of his party didn't want it!
Chirac invited again a German Prime minister (center left) and this time he came.
so easy to says sad comments with a short view!

[gilgoul]

Another excellent text Dubanski, i hopes it gave you an erection!!!

For information: Eisenhauer said that Resistance job made the work of 16 divisions for helping D Day!
200.000 free french were in the battle in Italy and South of France at the same time! The second DB of free french had to wait more than a month because Roosevelt wanted to put an american military administration in France and don't wanted French Free government!! De Gaule played fine on this affair!
Without Resistance (in France, Belgium,Holland) allieds never could come before Hitler has THE BOMB!

Vichy? 100.000 ultras right wingers who hate so much communists (in 1936 , socialists and communists won elections), and jews (most of them were socialists and still are here) that they prefer the new order !

btw Dubanski after read you so much time, excepting that you like jews, you're like those Vichy little brains right wingers!

The rest of the text is so biased that it not need to be commented!
I'll just add that if you could have a talk with a US veteran who was on the place you'll be surprising!

Ah, those comunistes jews, that`s the reason why the vichy regime got widespread support up to 1944.
You can blame it on whoever you want, but don`t try to rehab one of the worst regim e France ever had, and the symbol of it`s dishonour.
As for the free french, with all due respect, without the troops taken from the african colonies and sacrificed at monte Cassino, the proud "gaulian" army wouldn`t have counted for a tenth of it`s contribution to the allied effort.
Then, as a ancient of the EED2, heir of the GPA of Leclerc and part of the defunct 503 RCC "liberator" of Paris, the regiment and the DB where also simply not ready by june, and where barely reorganized by the end of july.

For a conclusion, that Chirac decided to make a joke out of himslef and out of France is pretty usual, the guy has been a joke since his early days in politics and his mayor mandat of Paris.
He wouldn`t raise more than eyebrows if his gestures were devoid of consequences, but when he supports terrorist states like Syria, Irak, Iran, for the sake of being a "counter power" to the american hegemony, he makes himself an accomplice of those states.
In the peing contest, he just showed once again one of the worst french quality, it`s arrogance.
As Coluche said once, the reason why the animal emblem of france is the **** is clear, the **** is the only animal who can sing and be proud of himself while walking deep in ****.

[stephane from Paris]

I said most of jews were socialists not communists, it's an enormous difference! Leon Blum the leader of the "Front populaire" (alliance between communists and socialists) was jew and was the first socialist president (or prime minister as president didn't exists at this time) . it was in 1936! Ultra right wing and christians integrists calls socialists= jews!
It is the same people who were happy to the victory of Hitler as the view it as a chance to remove leftists! When i rehab the Vichy government? I just explained their point of view and why they hated jews and socialists!

btw now socialist party is still the party prefered of most of jews in france.
If you take the 10 most important socialists 5 are jews! IT'S A FACT! The next president will be certainly one of them! Where's the problem? You hate socialists it's that?

The collonials troops were 50% of the soldiers in Italy and during the south campaign! How the 2eme DB could be ready as allied didn't want them long before the DDay?
as you speak about Chirac i don't care since i NEVER voted for him and like him!
We support Syria? we support Iran? What a joke, give example please!
And if you speak about people who sing with the foot in ****:
explain me why blacks people are angry against the only country who made business with the apparteid South Africa: yours!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deuterium]

As much as I would like to believe it didn't happen, slavery was once legal and supported by my government and its' people, the United States of America. As much as I would like to believe it didn't(does) happen, racial segregation and prejudice was once legal and supported by my government and its' people, the United States of America. As much as I would like to believe it didn't happen, my government and its' people forced out the indigenous peoples from their homelands, the United States of America.

http://www.abmc.gov/no1w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/br1w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/ep1w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/lo3w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/rh4w.jpg
http://www.jack-travel.com/Normandy/NormandyBayeuxcemetery.jpg


Take a GOOD look at these pictures "Stephanie from Paris". THIS is the reason you are free today. These dead soldiers are the reason you enjoy Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite. These dead soldiers are why you breathe the air of this earth into your body. You and Mr Chirac can pretend that your nation enjoyed a glorious liberation from within during WWII but the ugly truth is that your nation was soundly defeated and occupied by the Germans. The ugly truth is that your nation didn't put up much of a resistance to the Germans. If it were not for the British and American, Canadian, and other countries, you today would still speak German as your national language. Your national treasures would still hang in Berlin and Munich. As much as you and Chirac would like to dig up these graves and send them back to America, Canada, and England, history will not erase the truth of who freed France in 1944.

This was a D-Day memorial that was sullied by a shameful politician from France who spat on the graves of the dead that lay there. He used this solemn event to advance his own world view. Enjoy your freedom.

[ArmedPacifist]

Oh, America was left out of a speech about WW2?

Now you know how the rest of the world feels when you do the same goddamn thing.

[Deuterium]

Oh, America was left out of a speech about WW2?

Now you know how the rest of the world feels when you do the same goddamn thing.

Yep that's right. Those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

[California Joe]

For a site that is populated by archair military historians there sure is a lot of ethnocentric revisionism that goes on. I'm going to put in a request to hist2004 to sort this all out. Suffice to say, without the D Day sacrifices the resistance ultimately would have fared no better than those in Warsaw. There was far too much internacine bickering amongst the French factions to have ever overthrown the Germans.

[budanski]

Then:
http://www.etab.ac-caen.fr/college-argences/Actions_Pedago/Projet_Histoire_3eme/3B/Leconte/images/montoire.jpg

Now:
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040606/i/r138826213.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040606/i/r3513907803.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040606/i/r2324187351.jpg

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder (L) hugs French President Jacques Chirac (R) at the end of Chirac's speech during the France-German ceremony at the Memorial for Peace in Caen, June 6, 2004 as part of D-Day ceremonies in Normandy. *******/Vincent Kessler

[California Joe]

Looks like one of them got a ***** in the last pic. Either that or they got to the fast part in Stairway to Heaven during the slow dance portion of the ceremony.

[Kitsune]

rofl

[Damian]

It's "Vive" not "Viva". If you're going to be sarcastic at least learn the language.

Yeah Viva le resistence!!!

FF

[rom2]

i just want to point out simple things , for some idiot from USA :
D-Day wasnt a victory against nazism , it's a victory against communist .
why ? do some searches : 70 % of the german soldier were fighting in russia , then 10¨% on other fronts , and 20 % in france , against the G.I.
USA : 1 million people killed (pacific included)
RUSSIA : 20 million people killed (only against the germans)

so you see , USA , to make it simple ,did a little to save europe . (altough they gave a lot of support to the russia ).

but the great thing they do was to stop communism before they went to west germany , and maybe to france .

So i say , thank you America , thank you for having saved us from communism....

[OldRecon]

Ooops, double post.
Sorry :lol:

[OldRecon]

Another excellent text Dubanski, i hopes it gave you an erection!!!

For information: Eisenhauer said that Resistance job made the work of 16 divisions for helping D Day!
200.000 free french were in the battle in Italy and South of France at the same time! The second DB of free french had to wait more than a month because Roosevelt wanted to put an american military administration in France and don't wanted French Free government!! De Gaule played fine on this affair!
Without Resistance (in France, Belgium,Holland) allieds never could come before Hitler has THE BOMB!

Vichy? 100.000 ultras right wingers who hate so much communists (in 1936 , socialists and communists won elections), and jews (most of them were socialists and still are here) that they prefer the new order !

btw Dubanski after read you so much time, excepting that you like jews, you're like those Vichy little brains right wingers!

The rest of the text is so biased that it not need to be commented!
I'll just add that if you could have a talk with a US veteran who was on the place you'll be surprising!

Ah, those comunistes jews, that`s the reason why the vichy regime got widespread support up to 1944.
You can blame it on whoever you want, but don`t try to rehab one of the worst regim e France ever had, and the symbol of it`s dishonour.
As for the free french, with all due respect, without the troops taken from the african colonies and sacrificed at monte Cassino, the proud "gaulian" army wouldn`t have counted for a tenth of it`s contribution to the allied effort.
Then, as a ancient of the EED2, heir of the GPA of Leclerc and part of the defunct 503 RCC "liberator" of Paris, the regiment and the DB where also simply not ready by june, and where barely reorganized by the end of july.

For a conclusion, that Chirac decided to make a joke out of himslef and out of France is pretty usual, the guy has been a joke since his early days in politics and his mayor mandat of Paris.
He wouldn`t raise more than eyebrows if his gestures were devoid of consequences, but when he supports terrorist states like Syria, Irak, Iran, for the sake of being a "counter power" to the american hegemony, he makes himself an accomplice of those states.
In the peing contest, he just showed once again one of the worst french quality, it`s arrogance.
As Coluche said once, the reason why the animal emblem of france is the **** is clear, the **** is the only animal who can sing and be proud of himself while walking deep in ****.

Well let me say first, this thread is another one of those frog bashing threads, who makes me rather sad.
Not that I'm particularly francophile but considering the present rather unclear situation in Iraq, I think the French government wisely stayed out of that one.
And while French forces do not participate in Iraq at the moment, I presume the activities of French forces in Afghanistan, Balkans and West-Africa (where Al Qaida also appears to be involved) have enabled the US forces to save manpower in those regions.
As for the "jews in France = mainly socialists and communists" statement by Stephane, was that intended to be anti-semitic rather than a description of the Milice state of mind?
With regards to many of the quislings of my own country who served on the German side during WW-2, they also seem to have shared the same kind of "jews as agents of communism" sentiments (if there was any reality in those assumptions is a totaly different matter however).
If it's is so that a majority of jews with French citizenship living in France vote either for the socialist or communists what's wrong with that?
Anyway I think you Israelis shouldn't be to negative about communism. After all:

1) Wasn't the elements of the Balfour declaration, opening up for increased Jewish immigration to the then British protectorate of Palestine, motivated by a certain amount of "bolshie scare" on the part of the British, who hadn't failed to take notice of the prominent role of jews like Trotsky in the bolshevik leadership during the Lenin period?

2) I guess the shipment of Chzech small arms and aircraft to the Haganah during the late 1940's took place with Stalin's quite consent.

As far as "Free French" credibility during WW-2, rather than "French" credibility goes, I think it would be more correct to say that credibility was gained at Bir Hacheim, as the French expeditionary force taking part in the Allied campaign in Italy under Alphonse Juin was mostly Armée d'Afrique who before the Allied invasion of Algeria and Morocco in '42 had been part of the Vichy regime.
At both Bir Hacheim and in the turning of the Gustav line the French effort was a vital cog in the machinery however.
As far as French stance in the Middle east goes, France hasn't allways been "the champion of terrorist states like Syria, Irak or Iran". If I remember correctly during the 1950's to mid 60's France was THE most important suppliers of arms to Israel (Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vatour Mirage, and Noratlas aircraft, 155 mm Mle 1950 howitzers, and many seccond hand Sherman tanks and halftrack + brand new AMX-13 light tanks).
With regards to the efforts of French forces (mainly Legion Etrangere) to prop ut the Tombalaye regime in Chad during the late 60's and early 70's, if the memoirs of a former Norwegian legionnaire is correct, refueling mid stops in Libya for French transport aircraft en route to Chad wasn't all that uncommon either rofl (so to be able to "sing and be proud of oneself while walking deep in ****" apparently can have it's advantages rofl).

[ArmedPacifist]

http://www.etab.ac-caen.fr/college-argences/Actions_Pedago/Projet_Histoire_3eme/3B/Leconte/images/montoire.jpg


The corrupt Vichy government, what's your point?

I believe it was the Britians that crippled their fleet by the way, which prevented the Germans from using it against the allies.

[California Joe]

Bir Hachim was fought mostly by the Legion if I'm not mistaken. This was not a French bashing thread. At least it damned well shouldn't have been. The resistance may have tied up numerous German divisions during the invasion but it is rather self important to give them the lion's share of the credit for such actions.

[Red]

First of all when people say that the US only encounterd minimal resistance on D-day as compare to the soviets need to take into account the massive decpetion operations that were carried out by the allies before the D-day landings.As for the overall tones of the current generation of French folks,i think they have forgotten what the world did for them a long time ago,they thing is that the rest of the world is just finding that out.They dont say the French are arogant for no reason.

[Pille1234]

First of all when people say that the US only encounterd minimal resistance on D-day as compare to the soviets need to take into account the massive decpetion operations that were carried out by the allies before the D-day landings.As for the overall tones of the current generation of French folks,i think they have forgotten what the world did for them a long time ago,they thing is that the rest of the world is just finding that out.They dont say the French are arogant for no reason.

They dont say Americans are stupid for no reason, do they? As you say, the world did it a long time ago. If you expect gratitude for what your ancestors did you should take responsibilty and guilt for what your ancestors did, too.
Without France, there would be no independent USA, without Adam and Eva there would be no mankind. Now start to reckon up who owes whom what.

[Kilgor]

Once again the french throw forward the argument that the russians did all the sacrifice in the european conflict and American walked through france quite easily.

But just remember this, what if there was no d-day landings ?

Stalin reaches the oder, then berlin, then the rhine and continues to the corners of europe hunting down the third reich. You would be swapping one dictatorship for another, and would have had NO freedom for 45+ years. Living in a cruel soviet puppet satalite government having to bend over daily for stalin and buddies.

Harp on all that you want about the soviets doing most of the work, but take a short moment to think what would happen if there was no second front to save you from stalin.

1946 would have been a lovely year for europe without the d-day landings.

Stalin would have had you guys all bent over taking it ... "whats my name bitch ! "

[Red]

First of all when people say that the US only encounterd minimal resistance on D-day as compare to the soviets need to take into account the massive decpetion operations that were carried out by the allies before the D-day landings.As for the overall tones of the current generation of French folks,i think they have forgotten what the world did for them a long time ago,they thing is that the rest of the world is just finding that out.They dont say the French are arogant for no reason.

They dont say Americans are stupid for no reason, do they? As you say, the world did it a long time ago. If you expect gratitude for what your ancestors did you should take responsibilty and guilt for what your ancestors did, too.
Without France, there would be no independent USA, without Adam and Eva there would be no mankind. Now start to reckon up who owes whom what.
Well i can say that we are at an impasse.But at the end of the day i dont really care what the french think,they are a has been and never will be.So have a nice day

[Elmo]

Stalin would have had you guys all bent over taking it ... "whats my name bitch ! "

Had that happened...well. it's only speculation. My Czech, Hungarian and Polish friends are happy nowadays anyway.

What D-Day, VE-Day and the Cold War did was to establish an american hegemony over western Europe. While that still exist in mass culture, politically it's crumbling, whether you like it or not.

Besides, taking credit and expecting gratitude PERSONALLY (not pointed at you Kilgor) for things that happened 60 years ago is retarded. That kind of nationalist BS shows its ugly head on this forum way too often.

[Red]

Stalin would have had you guys all bent over taking it ... "whats my name bitch ! "

Had that happened...well. it's only speculation. My Czech, Hungarian and Polish friends are happy nowadays anyway.

What D-Day, VE-Day and the Cold War did was to establish an american hegemony over western Europe. While that still exist in mass culture, politically it's crumbling, whether you like it or not.

Besides, taking credit and expecting gratitude PERSONALLY (not pointed at you Kilgor) for things that happened 60 years ago is retarded. That kind of nationalist BS shows its ugly head on this forum way too often.
First all,all you Euros that love complaing about how US culture has eroded yours,tell me did any American force you to adopt their culture if you and your likes are secure in your culture i dont see why you guys feel threatend by American culture that is unless some Euros love American culture more than theirs,they think American culture is better than theirs.As for what happened 60 years ago,like i said in my other post some Euros have already forgoten what the World did for them a long time ago but if it is not for the actions that took place then that you call 'retarded' i can bet it you wont be here.No one asks for you thank you,frankly we dont need it all we ask is that you shut up and stop undermining us.Is that too much to ask?

[GrimmyRX]

Hows about this?

Everybody that participated in one form or another in the D-Day landings should share some credit.

Without the French Resistance fighters, D-day would have been much harder.

Without the Russian, D-day probably wouldn't have happened.

Without the Americans, D-day probably wouldn't have succeded.

Without the Canadians, D-day would have spread the other allies forces out a lot more, causing the Landings to be quite a bit harder.

Without the British, D-day would not have happened.

*shrug* Everybody was needed, so lets stop the bashings, here, no? :hug:

[Red]

Hows about this?

Everybody that participated in one form or another in the D-Day landings should share some credit.

Without the French Resistance fighters, D-day would have been much harder.

Without the Russian, D-day probably wouldn't have happened.

Without the Americans, D-day probably wouldn't have succeded.

Without the Canadians, D-day would have spread the other allies forces out a lot more, causing the Landings to be quite a bit harder.

Without the Britians, D-day would not have happened.

*shrug* Everybody was needed, so lets stop the bashings, here, no? :hug:
That is what is being said but trust the French to come up with a brand spanking new version of history.

[GrimmyRX]

Meh, It was adressing the whole "OMG!!! You owe us (Insert country here) for (insert event here!)" stuff. ^_^

[Elmo]

First all,all you Euros that love complaing about how US culture has eroded yours,tell me did any American force you to adopt their culture if you and your likes are secure in your culture i dont see why you guys feel threatend by American culture that is unless some Euros love American culture more than theirs,they think American culture is better than theirs
.

All us Euros...I only speak for myself and the only thing I did was to state a thing I consider a fact: American cultural hegemony exists and influences the lifes of many Europeans. No complaints.



As for what happened 60 years ago,like i said in my other post some Euros have already forgoten what the World did for them a long time ago but if it is not for the actions that took place then that you call 'retarded' i can bet it you wont be here.No one asks for you thank you,frankly we dont need it all we ask is that you shut up and stop undermining us.Is that too much to ask.

"We"? "You"?

It's great to see you feel that you belong to a group, a nation and that you can express the feeling of that imagined community. Funny, I thought individualism was hip in the States.

What did The World do for Euros a long time ago? Yes, there were great tragedies and suffering. The allied emerged as victors and that is why when an "English version" movie in a German theater starts out in German instead of English 19-year-old G.I.'s start screaming "how many wars do WE have to win to get things fixed in here?"

Yes, a harsh generalizing example. My bad. But not as harsh as posting Hitler with Petain and comparing that to Schröder and Chirac.

[Kitsune]

Sry Red:

1) It is perhaps beneath notice for you, but we Europeans are actually helping you. Oh sry, you don't need it? Why is the US then constantly asking for help, wether it be soldiers doing the stressing but unglamorous peace keeping job or money? You did neither Gulfwar I (remember who paid for it? Largely Japan and Germany) nor Afghanistan nor the so called "Gulfwar II" alone. Please keep that in mind.

2) Why don't we just shut up and foregoe any voicing of opposition? Well, because we Europeans (for the most part) think that
a) Bush Near East politics is utter crap. (Sorry, if you disagree here. But we are as entitled to having an opinion as you, even if is a different one). And
b) We Europeans have to live with the results of that policy as well, especially if this "great thinking 12 moves ahead" (this is the right place for one of these: :lol:) manages to fan the fanes of terrorism and lets the situation escalate. So I am terrible sorry, but if we actually insist on our opinion, even in the UN. But we have the ****ing right to do just that.

And to always play this "historic debt" card is simply low. Especially if it comes from a US government that is headed by a President that was not even born during the time of WWII and spend the Vietnam war defending Texas from the Vietcong instead of going in harms way himself. The first thing goes for most Americans, too. You cannot sit on the laurels of your Grandfathers forever. Do something for yourself. If you want more of our support (besides the significant portion you already have), convince us, or, failing to do that, endure our opposition. And bear it like a man.
Anyway, it is my staunch believe that a right policy will pay off in the end. That is precisely the reason why I believe that yours (Bushs) will fail. But if you think the opposite is true...then stand by it and be patient. What have you to fear in that case?

[Red]

First all,all you Euros that love complaing about how US culture has eroded yours,tell me did any American force you to adopt their culture if you and your likes are secure in your culture i dont see why you guys feel threatend by American culture that is unless some Euros love American culture more than theirs,they think American culture is better than theirs
.

All us Euros...I only speak for myself and the only thing I did was to state a thing I consider a fact: American cultural hegemony exists and influences the lifes of many Europeans. No complaints.



As for what happened 60 years ago,like i said in my other post some Euros have already forgoten what the World did for them a long time ago but if it is not for the actions that took place then that you call 'retarded' i can bet it you wont be here.No one asks for you thank you,frankly we dont need it all we ask is that you shut up and stop undermining us.Is that too much to ask.

"We"? "You"?

It's great to see you feel that you belong to a group, a nation and that you can express the feeling of that imagined community. Funny, I thought individualism was hip in the States.

What did The World do for Euros a long time ago? Yes, there were great tragedies and suffering. The allied emerged as victors and that is why when an "English version" movie in a German theater starts out in German instead of English 19-year-old G.I.'s start screaming "how many wars do WE have to win to get things fixed in here?"

Yes, a harsh generalizing example. My bad. But not as harsh as posting Hitler with Petain and comparing that to Schröder and Chirac.
Don't try and talk to me like you are talking to an uneducated boon,individualism and collectivism my ass.Well i am sorry that the allies won the war as i see you are not to happy about that.But you suffer from something called "politics of the simple".Well if you dont like the big bad USA,you can join the long line of folks who dont.It's your life not mine.

[Red]

Sry Red:

1) It is perhaps beneath notice for you, but we Europeans are actually helping you. Oh sry, you don't need it? Why is the US then constantly asking for help, wether it be soldiers doing the stressing but unglamorous peace keeping job or money? You did neither Gulfwar I (remember who paid for it? Largely Japan and Germany) nor Afghanistan nor the so called "Gulfwar II" alone. Please keep that in mind.

2) Why don't we just shut up and foregoe any voicing of opposition? Well, because we Europeans (for the most part) think that
a) Bush Near East politics is utter crap. (Sorry, if you disagree here. But we are as entitled to having an opinion as you, even if is a different one). And
b) We Europeans have to live with the results of that policy as well, especially if this "great thinking 12 moves ahead" (this is the right place for one of these: :lol:) manages to fan the fanes of terrorism and lets the situation escalate. So I am terrible sorry, but if we actually insist on our opinion, even in the UN. But we have the f*** right to do just that.

And to always play this "historic debt" card is simply low. Especially if it comes from a US government that is headed by a President that was not even born during the time of WWII and spend the Vietnam war defending Texas from the Vietcong instead of going in harms way himself. The first thing goes for most Americans, too. You cannot sit on the laurels of your Grandfathers forever. Do something for yourself. If you want more of our support (besides the significant portion you already have), convince us, or, failing to do that, endure our opposition. And bear it like a man.
Anyway, it is my staunch believe that a right policy will pay off in the end. That is precisely the reason why I believe that yours (Bushs) will fail. But if you think the opposite is true...then stand by it and be patient. What have you to fear in that case?
And i say thx for your help but there is a thin line between helping and bact stabing.A lot of EU countries have done a lot and i in no way am trying to downplay that but let us call a spade a spade.As for the D0day thing,like i said no one is asking for eternal gratitude but all i was saying was that a lot of French folks have already forgotten what was done for them,maybe to you it is not big deal for people to remember what happened 60 years ago but to sosme others it is.

[cut]

http://www.abmc.gov/no1w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/br1w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/ep1w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/lo3w.jpg
http://www.abmc.gov/rh4w.jpg
http://www.jack-travel.com/Normandy/NormandyBayeuxcemetery.jpg



please don't take offence Deut. this isn't aimed at you personally, but the article at the beginning of this refferrs to "EU fantasies". This pictures are what I would refferr to as US fantasies; 5 pics of US d-day war graves and just one for blury one for everyone else. Cheers!

[Jehuty]

This thread makes baby Jesus cry.

As soon as someone mention the Resistance or the FFL, he is a revisionnist gaullist who prove that France is ungrateful and lies about Liberation.
As soon as someone mention the Allies, someone say that the Russians did all the work to liberate France.
As soon as someone mention the Russians, someone says they won only because of America.

*clap clap clap*

-stop the idiotic "what-if" ("You would all be speaking German" for example, it's a what-if, and it has no historical credibility)
-France has a past before 1940, and it counts. :roll:
-Vichy was a (big) dark time in an ill France, with a lot of collaboration, we all know that ===> no it doesn't mean that France has always been that way, no it doesn't mean that France didn't change (may i remind you that today's France is the descendant of the Resistance, not of the collaboration?), no it doesn't mean it's in our blood, no it doesn't mean we shouldn't worship the Resistance because they weren't 40 millions.
-A lot of countries got dark times in their history too so give us a ****ing break, it will happens to you mighty americans too, one day or another.
-No we are not ungrateful, or else we would just destroy the cemetaries, and call the GI's of 1944 "The Evil Americans Pigs" instead of "The Soldiers of Liberty", and we wouldn't bother to make celebrations, monuments, and stuff like that.The younger generation perfectly know the history (because you know, we learn it), i think most of them realize what it means (at least, i hope), but considering they didn't live it, don't expect them to have the same devotion as our elderdies.(Be logical please)
-France is currently fighting terrorism in Afghanistan. From my personal experience, i wouldn't say we are fans of terrorism around here, we suffered from it and blowing up civilian people isn't ranked well in our "right-things-to-do" ladder, finally we don't have much Iranophile or Syrianohpile here :roll: (altought i sense too much critiscism against Israel.)
-Chirac is a gaullist, he has a gaullist attitude, France is far to be gaullist.The left is very powerful, you know the same left that sent troops for Gulf War 1 and Afghanistan, and would have probably send troops in Iraq. (Yes,it's a what-if so it's stupid)
-I'm still waiting to see what "paying our debt" would mean here in the real world. Always agreeing with USA is obviously not an option.
-Budansky, your analogy between Hitler and Schroeder was really really stupid p-)

[budanski]

-Budansky, your analogy between Hitler and Schroeder was really really stupid p-)
German leader, meet French leader. French leader, meet German leader... yeah, that analogy was stupid. :roll:

btw, Steven Ambrose relates that Eisenhower, among others, felt that France should be punished after the War for collaboration. It was not to be. It would have been difficult politically to tell the mothers of thousands of dead Americans that their sons died to "liberate" a nation of ingrates. The myth of valiant "French Resistance" was sustained for reasons of internal Western politics. (Not that there was no French Resistance, just that the efforts were exaggerated and ballyhooed all out of proportion.)

[Jehuty]

-Budansky, your analogy between Hitler and Schroeder was really really stupid p-)
German leader, meet French leader. French leader, meet German leader... yeah, that analogy is stupid. :roll:

It would be valid if Schroeder and Chirac could be compare to Petain and Hitler :roll:
One means collaboration in Fascism, the other means reconciliation between two former ennemies who are now both democratic countries.

But feel free to correct me and tell me what was then the point of this post. p-)

[budanski]

What is the point of most posts on this site anyways?

[Jehuty]

What is the point of most posts on this site anyways?

Errrr, too late for metaphysical thinking sorry ;)

[Mark Sman]

What D-Day, VE-Day and the Cold War did was to establish an american hegemony over western Europe.

Wow. Thats ingnorant you little punk. It doesn't even deserve an asnwer, but you're gonna get one anyway.

American hegemony? Really. Then why does Europe enjoy the freedom to establish their own political agenda in opposition to the US. As they should indeed have the right to do. They have enjoyed this right since, ohhhhhh, hmmmm. Somewhere in the mid-40s. The exact date escapes you.

I think the allied liberation of Europe, just maybe, had some other effects as well.

French and other European citizens were being murdered. Thats right, murdered you little schmuck. Do you think the survivors of Bergen-Belsen, and Nordhausen would agree with your silly little pathetic drivel? Do you? You f'in moron.

Warning graphic content.
http://carol_fus.tripod.com/prisoner8.JPEG

Those are dead Eurpeans you little putz. You see the uniform of their liberators? Those men risked their LIVES. They buried their buddies on the way. Some lost hands, legs, arms and eyes if they lived. All of them lost their innocence.

I know they teach history in Europe, because many of the posters here are well aware of what happened and its results.

Somebody said I should ask US D-Day vets what they think about this.

Guess what? I already have. I've known alot of WWII vets from the allied and axis powers.

You know what most allied vets think about Europe? They were glad we liberated Europe from Nazism. If something like Nazism happened again they think we should fight again.

When they landed, the first time, some people were happy to see them, and some were decidedly not. Nothings changed.

Some countries in Europe have lent their weight to stabilising Iraq and building a new government there. Some have not and probably never will.

Why? Building a new government for Iraq so thats its people can live in peace isn't a good enough goal for them? No. Its because they wish to manipulate foreign affairs to their advantage, which is understandable from a certain point of view. Just don't pretend otherwise.

I'm sure most European countries aren't afraid of the thugs and gangsters trying to wreak havoc on the world. Right?

Some countries just don't possess the ability to help out. Also understandable. Not every country has the type of help the Iraqi people need.

Or they flat out don't give a dam.

So ask yourself, "Why isn't my country helping to bring peace in Iraq?"

[OldRecon]

Bir Hachim was fought mostly by the Legion if I'm not mistaken. This was not a French bashing thread. At least it damned well shouldn't have been. The resistance may have tied up numerous German divisions during the invasion but it is rather self important to give them the lion's share of the credit for such actions.

Yep, 13 DBLE seems to get credit for their effort there to such an extent I at least don't know what other Free French units took part there.
Know that later para general Jaques Massu worked with the LRDG as a Free French officer (based at Faya Largeu in what today is Chad).