All the signs are there: religion will die. [Archive]

La8pv

10-31-2008, 08:11 AM

there are signs that in the western world (including the us (http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/flynn_21_1.htm)) religion is, indeed, beginning a long, slow – although accelerating – decline. All the statistics show that congregations are falling, mass attendance is diminishing (http://www.vexen.co.uk/uk/religion.html) and christian knowledge is passing inexorably from our culture.

There have been two, or in some cases, three generations of people in this country who have had no connection with church at all. It plays no part in their life or their thinking. They are what i term "the religiously indifferent" – they couldn't care less whether religion is there or not, just so long as it doesn't interfere with their lives. Such people make up a vast and increasing swath of the population of britain.
Why is this? In order to survive, a religion's mythology must be imbued into the next generation at an early age, before critical faculties that might prompt resistance develop. This is richard dawkins' meme theory. It is also the reason that most church of england schools are primary schools and that madrassas start the process so early on in children's lives.

Evangelists know that it takes only three or four generations of unchurched people for the mythology to fall from consciousness, to disappear from the culture. People find that actually they can manage perfectly well without it.

Religious leaders may despair about how difficult it is to reach "generation y" (roughly, 16-25 year olds), but if children have reached adolescence and they have not been infected with the religious meme, they will be mainly immune to it. The only way is to get gentle jesus into their heads when they're four or five.

In the developing world we are told that religion is strong and, apparently, unassailable. We see people in great crowds passionately defending their beliefs from insult, or walking round a giant stone in mecca. But one needs to ask: Do they really believe what they purport to believe? Or is the religious meme so strong in poor countries that it is inescapable? Does religion control so much of the culture that it is simply not possible to function as anything other than a religious adherent, whether sincere or not?

I ask this because i've noticed recently how many people are telling me: "i'm not a religious person, but i am spiritual." this is rapidly followed by a defensive: "you don't have to go to church to believe in god."

and this is what religious leaders should fear far more than the atheism or secularism they like to rail against. The spiritual-but-not-religious brigade represents a creeping disease that can eventually kill religion. It's a way of leaving the church without having the guilt of declaring yourself an atheist.

The founder of the national secular society (http://www.secularism.org.uk/), charles bradlaugh, said: "no man sees a religion die". That may be so, but religions do eventually die. History is littered with their corpses. Until now they have always been replaced. But one day the human race's growing indifference to the gods will prove more lethal than any anti-clericalist dagger. Religion will die.

I am sorry i won't be around to see it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2008/oct/30/atheism-religion

1234567890

XShipRider

10-31-2008, 08:19 AM

Religion cannot die. The deity may be supplanted by another entity, money comes to mind, but it surely shall never die.

Alfacentori

10-31-2008, 08:21 AM

Lazy Lob

10-31-2008, 08:23 AM

.....Science can explain the processes of life and nature but not of the soul, the spirt and what it means to be able to think, feel and love, what it is that makes us human.

Alfa

Are you sure? It could very well explain it, also depending if you believe in the soul.

Alfacentori

10-31-2008, 08:33 AM

Are you sure? It could very well explain it, also depending if you believe in the soul.

Depends on your definition I guess, Science can explain a lot in terms of brain function, neurology etc but a lot of things still defy science, I'm not particularly religious myself, more like an Agnostic at best.

Feelings can be explained by chemicals and hormones, behaviour by genetics, instinct by Darwinism etc

But it can't explain if there is or isnt a greater reason behind life, why
we seem to be the only independent free thinking species (relatively speaking) on Earth.
What makes us so individual, what makes people do the the things they do, what is fate etc

People always have sought an answer to these questions, even ancient cultures who worshipped the Sun had a concept of the soul. As science explained the questions of the world around them people came up with new questions, I see no reason why that would ever change, there will always be questions and people will aways seek belief.

Alfa

a_very_ex_STAB

10-31-2008, 09:10 AM

'There are no Atheist's in a foxhole'

You sure about that? I have a feeling that in extremis many men in foxholes would also curse the possible existence of a God that allows bad sh1t to happen to them. People react to situations in different ways.

2Sheds_Jackson

10-31-2008, 09:10 AM

Alfacentori

10-31-2008, 09:26 AM

You sure about that? I have a feeling that in extremis many men in foxholes would also curse the possible existence of a God that allows bad sh1t to happen to them. People react to situations in different ways.

You having a bad day?
Trying to find someone new to argue with perhaps?, sorry I'm not playing.

Didn't you see the 'Quotation marks'?

I just threw that in there for interests sake, is a Quote from William T Cummings, thought it fit there.

Alfa

LongShot

10-31-2008, 09:30 AM

I'm an athiest...and ive been in a fox hole.

Im Long Shot and I approved this message.

Dragonscript

10-31-2008, 09:31 AM

You sure about that? I have a feeling that in extremis many men in foxholes would also curse the possible existence of a God that allows bad sh1t to happen to them. People react to situations in different ways.

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a God. You can believe there is a God and hate him at the same time, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the whole "'There are no Atheists in a foxhole" is a military proverb, and just like any proverb the meaning is more than the words themselves but what the words suggest.

seraosha

10-31-2008, 09:33 AM

Old news
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19660408,00.html

And as a former atheist who is now a practicing Roman Catholic, I disagree.

Stainless Steel Rat

10-31-2008, 09:36 AM

If you ax me, the article is poorly conceived and badly written. Probably more importantly- it's just wrong. Religion will do is what it's done since we were burying people in peat bogs- it will change to suit us. That's not death - change is the essence of life. Even atheism is religion. A belief in our origins beyond the stars is just as much a religion as one that has people living on clouds after they die. Personally, I think that prosperity, longevity and stability have gone a long way towards making people less traditionally religious. But that will change radically as baby boomers die off - we see entertainment icons sicken and die off by the hundreds over the next 20 years - and we hit difficult economic times. If I were a betting man, I'd be building a church.

I mostly agree with the above. Religion, for lack of a better word, evolves (and won't the Baptists be unhappy with that!!! p-)) and it will continue to.

What is being lost is the, if you will, "magic" of religion--the belief that if you pray hard enough the rains will come or your illness healed or your side will win the war because some unseen God will act on your prayers.

Well, meterology is less than perfect, but it can see a hurricane coming (unlike the one that killed thousands in Galveston, Texas a century ago) and despite Pat Robertson's claims, I doubt that prayer has dissuaded any storms from clobbering an area he's prayed for. And prayers were never as effective against bacteria as penecillin. And interesting how both sides will pray to God--often the same one--but only the winning side mentions Him/Her/It as hearing their prayers (read Mark Twains' "The War Prayer" sometine soon if you haven't).

This does not touch on the deeper, more philosophical roots of religion; why we are what we are, what is moral, what is our proper place in the universe, what comes after (if anything?), and onward. But most people are not that deeply invested-God is God and is suppossed to do wonderous things--except it usually turns out we do them ourselves.

I think the future of religion will be one of less influence in our daily lives, more of a "Place upon a Hill" that we look to for moral and philosophical guidance, but it won't be something that we consider in place of science and technology in our daily lives.

I am a Non-Religious Agnostic, one who finds no compelling proof for a God or Gods, but nothing that would prevent there from their being present either. But I am reasonably sure any God who be shocked and appalled at how we choose to conduct our worship of said Gods. So no organized (or even disorganized) religion is of interest to me.

I may be a loner in this--but I think there is more like me out there than many religious leaders would care to admit.

Interesting topic. press on.

AgentX

10-31-2008, 09:38 AM

All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. - Edgar Allen Poe

Science has its limitations, and spirituality feeds on our fear for the unknown.

SBL

10-31-2008, 09:39 AM

Personally, I think that prosperity, longevity and stability have gone a long way towards making people less traditionally religious. But that will change radically as baby boomers die off - we see entertainment icons sicken and die off by the hundreds over the next 20 years - and we hit difficult economic times. If I were a betting man, I'd be building a church.

My thoughts exactly. There is a reason why religion thrives in the more miserable corners of the world.

boet faas

10-31-2008, 09:56 AM

The main reason for the decline in the following of Christianity is because it is changing. Christianity was for to long regarded as a human entity with human solutions. God is changing Christianity from religion, which is man made, to Holy Spirit inspired revelations of Jesus Christ. The problem with this change is that it seperates the goats from the sheep. The flesh, which is your physical body, and mind which is your physical thought process, is in animosity towards God. Our carnal nature says that it is impossible for a God to exist. And as most generations up to know were influenced by religion and not true Christianity, people forget or dismiss the idea of God. Isnt that what the humanists wants people to think? And you can categorise humanists with Atheists as they believe that man does everything on its power alone with no supernatural interference.

LongShot

10-31-2008, 09:59 AM

ayanami_tard

10-31-2008, 10:01 AM

religion will die.....................my A$$

RECON DOC

10-31-2008, 10:01 AM

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/EPH/8310.jpg

boet faas

10-31-2008, 10:06 AM

[quoteAnd as a former atheist who is now a practicing Roman Catholic, I disagree.[/quote]

Catholism is not christianity. Sorry to say, and a great many people will disagree. But the catholics changed the bible to fit in with their cult, which is idol worship in the form of Nimrod and Semiramis. This was an ancient Babylonian religion practised by the Romans and adapted to Christianity by Constantine. It is unbiblical and cultic. I understand why a former atheist practices catholism, because it is just as dead.

matthew.manhorn

10-31-2008, 10:13 AM

Most of our ethics are based on Christianity. Christianity will still be the best tool for teaching little kids. I'm not 100% sure though since the media is pretty advanced during th 21st century.

boet faas

10-31-2008, 10:17 AM

Did god send out a memo that he was making this change? Maybe a mass e-mail, and if so, how does one get on his e-mail list? Or was it Jesus who made the announcement? Are God and Jesus the same person? No? My mind is made out of flesh, even though you can see it without sawing off the top of my head, is that okay?
I want to suggest that you get more information on why we recieve the Holy Spirit when we become born again and what His funtion is. Once you get a load of that you might not be so ignorant anymore. If you want to get His e-mail list contact me or go see a pastor and become a born again believer. God and Jesus is exactly the same person. You and every other human being consists of three entities nl. body, soul, spirit. Three bodies one you. The same with God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The bible says in Genesis that God made man in His likeness, meaning the same shape, look and entities. God made Adam a partner in Eve becuase He saw Adam was lonely, just as He was. That is why He made mankind. And as apposed to any other form of creation we were created with a distinct Godly character, a free will, to decide what and where and how we want to live. Even to decide if we want to believe in Him or not. The choice is ours. Animals dont have that choice, nature does not have that choice, but we have. That is amazing.

boet faas

10-31-2008, 10:21 AM

Most of our ethics are based on Christianity. Christianity will still be the best tool for teaching little kids. I'm not 100% sure though since the media is pretty advanced during th 21st century.

Christianity is not based on ethics but on the grace of God. Your good will deeds will not make peace with God. You need to believe that He died and rose again, and why, confess Him and worship Him in spirit and in truth. That will make your peace with God.

Hollis

10-31-2008, 10:22 AM

First of all there is no difference in religion and philosophy. If a person is concern that people and about about how people accept things with out a bases of fact, they have to accept that does not seem like it is going to go away. Look at our current election in the US. Almost no fact is involved.

There are anti religion people and they wish to believe religion will fade away. As it was mentioned "religion" will just be changed to adapt to the current needs of people. Look at the resurrection of "old" or lost religions, such as Wiccan.

People like Mr. Spock just do not exist or they are a very tiny minority. Choose your belief, in some deity, in Lady Luck, in one's own fantasies, etc.

Your choice.

LongShot

10-31-2008, 10:26 AM

I want to suggest that you get more information on why we recieve the Holy Spirit when we become born again and what His funtion is. Once you get a load of that you might not be so ignorant anymore. If you want to get His e-mail list contact me or go see a pastor and become a born again believer. God and Jesus is exactly the same person. You and every other human being consists of three entities nl. body, soul, spirit. Three bodies one you. The same with God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The bible says in Genesis that God made man in His likeness, meaning the same shape, look and entities. God made Adam a partner in Eve becuase He saw Adam was lonely, just as He was. That is why He made mankind. And as apposed to any other form of creation we were created with a distinct Godly character, a free will, to decide what and where and how we want to live. Even to decide if we want to believe in Him or not. The choice is ours. Animals dont have that choice, nature does not have that choice, but we have. That is amazing.

I dont need to be born again, I was born fine the first time.

Define choice...as we are all born atheists and the majority of people have religion introduced to them as a child by their parents before they ever have a cognitive and informed choice in the matter...a vicious cycle continues.

boet faas

10-31-2008, 10:26 AM

There are anti religion people and they wish to believe religion will fade away. As it was mentioned "religion" will just be changed to adapt to the current needs of people. Look at the resurrection of "old" or lost religions, such as Wiccan.

People like Mr. Spock just do not exist or they are a very tiny minority. Choose your belief, in some deity, in Lady Luck, in one's own fantasies, etc.

Your choice.

You need to understand that you only get two types of religion. The first one is true Holy Spirit inspired Christianity and then satanism. Under satanism you get all other religions including wiccan. You have a choice between two gods. Jesus Christ or satan himself.

boet faas

10-31-2008, 10:32 AM

I dont need to be born again, I was born fine the first time.

Define choice...as we are all born atheists and the majority of people have religion introduced to them as a child by their parents before they ever have a cognitive and informed choice in the matter...a vicious cycle continues.
This is exactly why people must be born again. You are born of flesh and blood and introduced to all falacies that human kind has to offer. When you become born again you are born of Spirit and not flesh and blood. Your spirit is renewed and made alive through the Holy Spirit which changes you from the inside out. With your soul you then decide to follow the inner working power of the Holy Spirit which reveals Jesus to you and you become like him. Or you still decide to follow your carnal nature, the desires of the physical mind and body, and keep on sinning.

seraosha

10-31-2008, 10:33 AM

Catholism is not christianity. Sorry to say, and a great many people will disagree. But the catholics changed the bible to fit in with their cult, which is idol worship in the form of Nimrod and Semiramis. This was an ancient Babylonian religion practised by the Romans and adapted to Christianity by Constantine. It is unbiblical and cultic. I understand why a former atheist practices catholism, because it is just as dead.

LOL. Welcome to the forums boet faas, you'll go far.rofl

LongShot

10-31-2008, 10:44 AM

This is exactly why people must be born again. You are born of flesh and blood and introduced to all falacies that human kind has to offer. When you become born again you are born of Spirit and not flesh and blood. Your spirit is renewed and made alive through the Holy Spirit which changes you from the inside out. With your soul you then decide to follow the inner working power of the Holy Spirit which reveals Jesus to you and you become like him. Or you still decide to follow your carnal nature, the desires of the physical mind and body, and keep on sinning.

See previous post.........

Hollis

10-31-2008, 10:54 AM

You need to understand that you only get two types of religion. The first one is true Holy Spirit inspired Christianity and then satanism. Under satanism you get all other religions including wiccan. You have a choice between two gods. Jesus Christ or satan himself.

That is a religious view from one religion. Religion does cause a person to have a myopia to other views, at times.

Hollis

10-31-2008, 10:56 AM

XShipRider

10-31-2008, 11:21 AM

2Sheds_Jackson

10-31-2008, 11:28 AM

Or you still decide to follow your carnal nature, the desires of the physical mind and body, and keep on sinning.

I've followed both Jesus and my carnal nature to several places. I have to say, the places my carnal nature goes are much more interesting. Jesus just kept going to the library.

LongShot

10-31-2008, 11:29 AM

Not sure if we are born atheists, maybe more agnostic. See Freud, "Totem and Taboo".

Im familiar, but I dont think he took into account pre-cognitive environmental influences...My opinion is more towards atheism, though the question could be raised that once someone learns that there is a belief in god, are they not automatically agnostic until they make the decision whether or not to believe in him?

ilmakas

10-31-2008, 11:33 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligious

heh, I guess we are winning the war on religion :D

Buffalo_soldier

10-31-2008, 11:47 AM

Religion is a rot in the human brain. The only way to make it die is to make it irrelevent. Hopefully, one day, Jesus and Mohammed will go the way of Thor and Odin.

Gulag

10-31-2008, 11:48 AM

let it die quickly

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 11:50 AM

Religion will never die, people have always and will always need a reason for living and for life itself.

Science can explain the processes of life and nature but not of the soul, the spirt and what it means to be able to think, feel and love, what it is that makes us human.

'There are no Atheist's in a foxhole'

Alfa

What if science proves there is no soul. Just like their is no "Force". Love is nothing but a biological process in the brain... and not a very good one at that ("love makes you blind")

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 11:54 AM

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 11:59 AM

I see religion as a computer virus. It serves no purpose but to spread itself to other computers (preaching) or turning the computer into a bot (religious leaders scamming the gullible followers.) viruses embed in the computer files and the computer refuses to uninstall them (try deconverting a follower) A virus (religion) does nothing tangible or beneficial to the actual working of a computer.

Hollis

10-31-2008, 12:00 PM

Atheism a religion? Is vacuum a gaz?

First of all let me point to the obvious, Philosophies, such as atheism and religions are the same. That is generally covered in a Philosophy 101 course.

Funny part is the so called philosophers and religious students find that a outrageous statement, until it is explained to them.

The other problem with the term "atheist" is that there are all kinds of self proclaimed atheist, with all kinds of reasons and views. I think a number of self proclaimed atheist are not really atheist in that they are more anti-religion/or a specific religion.

Maybe explore the meaning of "belief".

a_very_ex_STAB

10-31-2008, 12:05 PM

You having a bad day?
Trying to find someone new to argue with perhaps?, sorry I'm not playing.

Didn't you see the 'Quotation marks'?

I just threw that in there for interests sake, is a Quote from William T Cummings, thought it fit there.

Alfa

Not having a bad day at all thank you.

Surely you realize that if you throw in a kind of 'blanket statement' like that then someone is going to challenge its veracity?

All I can say is my father has never been religious, he spent a considerable amount of time in various foxholes in a sh1tehole called Korea but it didn't give him a bad case of religion!

Hollis

10-31-2008, 12:05 PM

Im familiar, but I dont think he took into account pre-cognitive environmental influences...My opinion is more towards atheism, though the question could be raised that once someone learns that there is a belief in god, are they not automatically agnostic until they make the decision whether or not to believe in him?

There are religion in which there are no gods or no anti-gods (satan types). Part of it is thinking, when cognitive thought process starts and the ability to understand or quantify ones own surroundings which, I think, comes later in a person life. Early development, I believe is based on emulating those about them. If anything I think people are as superstitious today as they ever have been and are a mix of religious and philosophical views.

martinexsquaddie

10-31-2008, 12:06 PM

Religion will never die, people have always and will always need a reason for living and for life itself.

Science can explain the processes of life and nature but not of the soul, the spirt and what it means to be able to think, feel and love, what it is that makes us human.

'There are no Atheist's in a foxhole'

Alfa

this one certainly has been you and your imaginary friend can do one

a_very_ex_STAB

10-31-2008, 12:06 PM

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a God. You can believe there is a God and hate him at the same time, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the whole "'There are no Atheists in a foxhole" is a military proverb, and just like any proverb the meaning is more than the words themselves but what the words suggest.

You get today's first prize for stating the bleedin' obvious.

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 12:06 PM

First of all let me point to the obvious, Philosophies, such as atheism and religions are the same. That is generally covered in a Philosophy 101 course.

Funny part is the so called philosophers and religious students find that a outrageous statement, until it is explained to them.

The other problem with the term "atheist" is that there are all kinds of self proclaimed atheist, with all kinds of reasons and views. I think a number of self proclaimed atheist are not really atheist in that they are more anti-religion/or a specific religion.

Maybe explore the meaning of "belief".

Lack of belief is not a belief. Being bald is not a hair style neither health is a desease. Religious people proclaim there is a god, it is up to them to prove that statement. Otherwise I will challenge them to disprove that there is an invisible elf living in my garden.

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 12:08 PM

Not having a bad day at all thank you.

Surely you realize that if you throw in a kind of 'blanket statement' like that then someone is going to challenge its veracity?

All I can say is my father has never been religious, he spent a considerable amount of time in various foxholes in a sh1tehole called Korea but it didn't give him a bad case of religion!

Not to mention all those millions of atheist Soviets... or Japanese ready to kill themselves for a living Emperor.

LongShot

10-31-2008, 12:08 PM

There are religion in which there are no gods or no anti-gods (satan types). Part of it is thinking, when cognitive thought process starts and the ability to understand or quantify ones own surroundings which, I think, comes later in a person life. Early development, I believe is based on emulating those about them. If anything I think people are as superstitious today as they ever have been and are a mix of religious and philosophical views.

No debate here...

Military-G

10-31-2008, 12:12 PM

I dont buy into religious crap .. its all contradictions and hypocrisy nevertheless its upto the individual. If people need it to make them feel better while they are alive let them have it. As long as they dont force it upon me in any way.

In the western world though it does seem to be fading away .. it will never not exist but clearly a large amount of people dont find it even remotely important. People seem to go to church to get their kids into specific schools or as a thing to do at christmas.

I just really dont care ... Its pretty tedious stuff.

Jobu

10-31-2008, 12:12 PM

Agnosticism is where it's at.

It's a recognition that we simply don't know. Is there a God? I dunno. Is there no God? I dunno.

There is no requirement of faith. There is no subscription to some set of beliefs. There is nothing there for one to say it is a philosophy (in the scholarly sense.)

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 12:13 PM

I always wonder how many people who actually proclaim themselves Xtian actually read the bible? I have a very vivid imagination and when I was read the bible as a kid thought it was the biggest bunch of boloney ever. All those pillars of salt, talking snakes, genital mutilation, going on a tall mountain to meet god... I actually IMAGINED these scenes... and they were plain retarded.

I saw it for what it is a collection of insane ramblings by Bronze Age goat herders who may or may not have been schizo and may or may not have been eating the wrong 'shrooms.

Just think of how quaran came about.

Mo' was living in caves and heard voices in his head that almost drove him to suicide... untill "angel jebreel" (one of the voices) told him about this whole allah thing.

Nowdays the guy would have been in an insane asylum... not to mention in trouble with authorities for banging a 9 year old.

CG51

10-31-2008, 12:13 PM

.. ／l、
（ﾟ､｡７　　　
　l、 ~ヽ　 .　　
　じしl_, )ノ

2Sheds_Jackson

10-31-2008, 12:14 PM

Lack of belief is not a belief. Being bald is not a hair style neither health is a desease. Religious people proclaim there is a god, it is up to them to prove that statement. Otherwise I will challenge them to disprove that there is an invisible elf living in my garden.

Religion isn't about god or gods - it's about a quest to understand the nature of existence and the origins thereof. You do exist, whether or not there's a god, and your beliefs regarding that existence constitute your religion. You can call it anything you like, you can believe in god, or gods, or no gods, or wear robes while doing so, or not, and it can be formal or informal or ...but a religion it is.

LongShot

10-31-2008, 12:15 PM

I think honest atheism is not a philosophy.

It's a recognition that we simply don't know. Is there a God? I dunno. Is there no God? I dunno.

There is no requirement of faith. There is no subscription to some set of beliefs. There is nothing there for one to say it is a philosophy.

Atheism and Existentialism are often held in the same idea...Existentalism is a philosophy...

KilRemgor

10-31-2008, 12:15 PM

What if science proves there is no soul.
That is plain impossible as to prove some concept as being non-existent, you could only:
1) Take some observable factor/effect/etc. that derives from said concept and prove it doesn't exist (by experimentation).
2) Assume that concept exists, then logically find conclusion deriving from it that contradicts another experimentally proven concept (method by contradiction).

As you can easily see, there are no observable effects stated for soul so far that can be experimentally verified or checked, and there're no conclusions made from existence of soul that even touch the realm of physics.

Ironically, it is scientifically possible to prove the existence of soul, as one can think of phenomena that can be interpreted as 'soul' and then analyzed.
But proving it doesn't exist is not possible scientifically as the way soul is defined is clearly non-scientific; but so are many other definitions, like the morality, which apparently exist but directly scientific methods are not applicable towards them.

The whole science-vs-religion thing is a misunderstanding. Science is a way of studying the observable world and it doesn't work with philosohical concepts unless they become 'observable'. Scientific approach can be used to debunk claims of something specific influencing physical world but it's only applicable to the physical world and never any serious scientists attempted to go beyond - as it doesn't really make any sense.

The belief that science 'attacks' religion was born out of science just finding the explanations of things that were claimed to be result of divine forces, esp. for pagan religions and claims of some modern 'prophets'; but science never targeted religion or tried to 'kill' it.

In fact, it can be imagined that if soul is scientifically found to exist (what is possible), it will only mean some more publications and grants for scientists and perhaps a new branch of science.

However, most religious and philosophical concepts are unlikely to be ever analyzed by scientific methods as the way they're defined is far outside their area of application.

But conclusion is, religion and science can co-exist and they aren't really antagonistic.
Isaac Newton is a good example.

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 12:18 PM

Religion isn't about god or gods - it's about a quest to understand the nature of existence and the origins thereof. You do exist, whether or not there's a god, and your beliefs regarding that existence constitute your religion. You can call it anything you like, you can believe in god, or gods, or no gods, or wear robes while doing so, or not, and it can be formal or informal or ...but a religion it is.

Let's not muddle the issue. I am talking about the classic definition of religion. If to you god is laws of physics or the beauty of the cosmos... that is not religion. In fact atheist means a lack of belief in a THEISTIC god... jahowa, allah etc.

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 12:19 PM

That is plain impossible as to prove some concept as being non-existent, you could only:
1) Take some observable factor/effect/etc. that derives from said concept and prove it doesn't exist (by experimentation).
2) Assume that concept exists, then logically find conclusion deriving from it that contradicts another experimentally proven concept (method by conrtadiction).

As you can esily see, there are no observable effects stated for soul so far that can be experimentally verified or checked, and there's no conclusions made from existence of soul that even touch the realm of physics.

Ironically, it is scientifically possible to prove the existence of soul, as one can think of phenomena that can be interpreted as 'soul' and then analyzed.
But proing it doesn't exist is not possible scientifically as the way soul is defined is clearly non-scientific; but so are many other definitions, like the morality, which apparently exist but directly scientific methods are not applicable towards them.

The whole science-vs-religion thing is a misunderstanding. Science is a way of studying the observable world and it doesn't work with philosohical concepts unless they become 'observable'. Scientific approach can be used to debunk claims of something specific influencing physical world but it's only appliable to the physical world and never any serious scientists attempted to go beyond - as it doesn't really make any sense.

The belief that science 'attacks' religion was born out of science just finding the explanations of things that were claimed to be result of divine forces, esp. for pagan religions and claims of some modern 'prophets'; but
science never targeted religion or tried to 'kill' it.

In fact, it can be imagined that if soul is scientifically found to exist (what is possible), it will only mean some more publications and grants for scientists and erhaps a new branch of science.

However, most religious and philosophical concepts are unlikely to be ever analyzed by scientific methods as the way they're defined is far outside their area of application.

But conclusion is, religion and science can co-exist and they aren't really antagonistic.
Isaac Newton is a good example.

There is another word for that which is unobservable and unfalsifiable...

non-existant

LongShot

10-31-2008, 12:19 PM

Let's not muddle the issue. I am talking about the classic definition of religion. If to you god is laws of physics or the beauty of the cosmos... that is not religion. In fact atheist means a lack of belief in a THEISTIC god... jahowa, allah etc.

How classic are we talking? There were many gods before there was one...

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 12:22 PM

How classic are we talking? There were many gods before there was one...

Horus, seth, zeus. You know classical gods and religions. I would even say Buddhism does not fall that much into that category as it is more of a philosophy.

Jobu

10-31-2008, 12:22 PM

Atheism and Existentialism are often held in the same idea...Existentalism is a philosophy...

I edited the post before you quoted it.

Atheism was not what I meant.

Rictor

10-31-2008, 12:25 PM

'There are no Atheist's in a foxhole'

And how many foxholes has the peaceful, prosperous West seen in the past half-century? How many are we likely to see in the next half-century?

If religion wishes to hang on, it must base itself on a sturdier foundation than merely this.

KilRemgor

10-31-2008, 12:26 PM

Russian_dude (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=28143)>
That is not scientific, as science doesn't allow you to make conclusions this way.
Ofc there's Occam's Razor, but it is just a principle telling what theory to use in practice, not which of them to consider true.
Everything has its area of application. So do scientific methods. Unless it is expanded (what means that 'new' science won't be really the same as the one we use now) no scientific conclusion can be made.

In the past, many effects were unfalsifable and unobservable but are now accepted scientific truth.
Or you think that medieval scientists could've analyzed quantum mechanics correctly just for being scientists?
Flying machines heavier than air were once considered impossible too. So what?

LongShot

10-31-2008, 12:26 PM

Horus, Seth, Zeus. You know classical gods and religions. I would even say Buddhism does not fall that much into that category as it is more of a philosophy.

Agreed....many of the classical religions died out, though they were replaced by others...one must wonder if a religion can die if there is no "super natural" belief to replace it...

Ill take Buddhism over Christianity any day.

I edited the post before you quoted it.

Atheism was not what I meant.

Roger that.

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 12:30 PM

Agreed....many of the classical religions died out, though they were replaced by others...one must wonder if a religion can die if there is no "super natural" belief to replace it...

Ill take Buddhism over Christianity any day.

Roger that.

Hence I think that CLASSICAL religions will die out. You know, the angry dude on a cloud smiting people - stuff. All those pseud religions like scientology, new age, buddhism still have some mileage in them.

drunken sailor

10-31-2008, 12:54 PM

All religions will be twisted into one. The Anti-Christ will make that happen. I can now say for certain that Obama is the man. He will not be possessed till he gets shot in the head.

Sounds crazy but if you know the prophecy well then you will see how our community organizer fits the bill like no other. Read and think about it. Discus politely please as I have been studying this for years and years.

He is the only one who could pull it off.

seraosha

10-31-2008, 12:56 PM

You are all merely fodder in the coming Jihad.

Good luck.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 01:04 PM

It would be nice if humans worshiped science until we actually learned enough about the universe and our self's to formulate a religion we could all believe in.

E=MC2.......lol......there's a miracle we can all believe in.

But nah, religion wont die without a fight, religion is big business. I remember when I was a little kid in Russia going to church back in the last days of soviet Russia and wondering why these people that preach the need for control of one's ego need to have all that gold and fancy sh!t all over the place.

Lol...I also remember the first time I walked into a cathedral in Havana when I was a kid and seeing the life sized wooden jesus on the cross, they made it look so real and lifelike, it scared the **** out off me. Thankfully I grew out of the need to identify wich is the best religion and realized that theyre all the same.

my 2 cents.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 01:07 PM

He will not be possessed till he gets shot in the head.

If you're serious than....LOL

If youre not......LOL

tea drinker

10-31-2008, 01:12 PM

in other news:
All the signs are there! We are all going to die.

I just don't see why people who are not satanists or some such feel the need to celebrate the collapse in the church. (without giving a well thought out, tested on the masses alternative)

robertico420

10-31-2008, 01:13 PM

You are all merely fodder in the coming Jihad.

Good luck.

My middle name is jihad.

My last name is fodder.

LongShot

10-31-2008, 01:14 PM

Steaks

10-31-2008, 01:28 PM

No worries. I'm a born-again atheist

tea drinker

10-31-2008, 01:33 PM

Sort of a side comment, but what war has ever been fought in the name of satan..............

And we will never know how many wars were stopped by religous persons either.... anway weren't all the Holy wars fought against satan???? p-) j/k

You have to distinguish between the politicisation of beliefs, the use of religion as a vehicle to deliver hate, from the religion. Religous people are not infallible, just because they have a faith, however, it doesn't stop people looking for perfection at a human level.

Most dictators have used political and religous means to stir up hate, and empower themselves, this is how humans interract, they are looking to be led by a purposeful male, and preferably one who will them they are all great but those bastards over there are eating your bread.
Human greed and need for empowerment has seen many people rise to positions of power in political, military, corporate and religous circles.
It's up to individual people to ensure they are educated and broad minded enough to challenge false belief systems and poor leadership, and this applies to religion of course.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 01:45 PM

No worries. I'm a born-again atheist

Welcome to the club.

Don't forget to meditate.:-)

XShipRider

10-31-2008, 01:51 PM

And we will never know how many wars were stopped by religous persons either.... anway weren't all the Holy wars fought against satan???? p-) j/k

Post-it: All wars throughout history were fought over money.

No worries. I'm a born-again atheist
Much better view the second time.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 02:06 PM

I feel that the combination of religion and logic is what has made us from cave dwelling tribes into nuclear armed B2 flying tribes because our logic has been used by our religious/political leaders as a means to further whatever religion/ideology our particular tribe follows. Unfortunately it seems that until we don't start using our logic to justify our beliefs we are destined to continue fighting each other for our unsubstantiated beliefs. I feel that when all of humanity realizes this, only than will religion as we know it die.

my 2 cents.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 02:11 PM

I guess my avatar represents what i just wrote pretty well.

xav

10-31-2008, 02:12 PM

"All the signs are there: religion will die. "

Good maybe we will leave in world without wars now (especially in the middle east).

IronFinn

10-31-2008, 02:19 PM

Rockthekazbah12

10-31-2008, 02:20 PM

i blame the people that see jesus in their food and sell it on ebay

OnTheRocks

10-31-2008, 02:23 PM

Religion isn't about god or gods - it's about a quest to understand the nature of existence and the origins thereof. You do exist, whether or not there's a god, and your beliefs regarding that existence constitute your religion. You can call it anything you like, you can believe in god, or gods, or no gods, or wear robes while doing so, or not, and it can be formal or informal or ...but a religion it is.

That's wrong unfortunately, atheism is not a religion because it has no dogmas or tenants rules, morals or ethics that can be applied to atheism all of which are cornerstones of religious belief. Atheism is not a belief system, it is a single position on one issue.
There is nothing that says that two atheists have to agree on anything else besides their lack of belief in a god.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 02:36 PM

As an ateist I do not believe in any god but I believe humans have the ability to someday be something close to one. All our genetical and technical advances will take us there if nothing stops the progress. The most biggest threat to that is religion which is a strong anchor holding us down.

Dint you hear? The Earth is flat, if you walk far enough you'd probably fall off....rofl .....and the Earth is the center of the universe, If you don't believe me Ill torture you're ass and burn you at the stake....oh wait what year is it?

Mr.Flint

10-31-2008, 02:55 PM

You atheists must be fapping hard at the thought...
Dream on.... because ours been around for 3 millenia, and will keep on.

Dint you hear? The Earth is flat, if you walk far enough you'd probably fall off....rofl .....and the Earth is the center of the universe, If you don't believe me Ill torture you're ass and burn you at the stake....oh wait what year is it?
Religion is the opium for the masses, and if you disagree you will be worked to death in a reeducation/ work camp or shot in a ditch... yep no religion no war and persecution, oh wait....

pascalywood

10-31-2008, 03:06 PM

INAT

10-31-2008, 03:22 PM

The three main religions Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have roots in pagan practice and ritual. They all took these pagan practices and incorporated them into their thinking.

I feel that spiritual thought is important and serves a purpose but organized religion is very hard for me to accept. You study any religion and see that it has occult aspects which have been slightly altered and adjusted to suit their own needs. By occult I just mean hidden knowledge.
They all have at their root the worship of the sun.

SBL

10-31-2008, 03:23 PM

Post-it: All wars throughout history were fought over money.

If that's the case, then it would seem that "religion" isn't the root of the problem.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 03:36 PM

You atheists must be fapping hard at the thought...
Dream on.... because ours been around for 3 millenia, and will keep on.

Religion is the opium for the masses, and if you disagree you will be worked to death in a reeducation/ work camp or shot in a ditch... yep no religion no war and persecution, oh wait....

You think you're better off today than you were 3 millenia ago because off you're long curly sideburns or because of people that searched for proof of why nature is the way it is?

I started reading the bible a while back, than I fell asleep. When I woke up I had a joint and felt closer to god.

I you were referring to the communist system, it was flawed because it failed to take into account the intellectual/technological level of humanity when we tried to impose it on our self's.

Taking into account our intellectual/technological level today I have no illusions about religions disappearing any time soon.

brainplay

10-31-2008, 03:37 PM

It would be nice if humans worshiped science until we actually learned enough about the universe and our self's to formulate a religion we could all believe in.

Can't worship science, only the ideology and ethics behind it. As one person said, philosophy and religion go hand in hand. Science is no different. The late 1700's, early 1800's went through one of these phases already within the English and Irish territories. Debates about man, war, peace, humor, and science were rampant. We're no better off now than we were back then.

The ethics of science are ripe to be turned into the next religion. It reminds me of some of the Mars series (Red Mars, Blue Mars, Green Mars).

2Sheds_Jackson

10-31-2008, 03:39 PM

That's wrong unfortunately, atheism is not a religion because it has no dogmas or tenants rules, morals or ethics that can be applied to atheism all of which are cornerstones of religious belief. Atheism is not a belief system, it is a single position on one issue.
There is nothing that says that two atheists have to agree on anything else besides their lack of belief in a god.

You're going to have to broaden your views here. Religion does not require a supreme being, rules, ethics, ceremony, dogma, officials, relics, organization, sacred texts, rituals or any external manifestation of belief or tradition outside the mind of the believer. It can be completely private, arbitrary and utterly unknown to all persons outside the self. Therefore, atheism is a perfectly valid religion like any other. It's just one more half-assed way of looking at reality. Tell me, for example, of how an atheist’s belief in the creation of the universe - no matter what it is (i.e. any way that does not involve a god) does not depend upon faith? And how is that faith any different- any better or worse - than the brand of faith that anybody else, any other religion, organized or not, has?

robertico420

10-31-2008, 03:41 PM

i feel that spiritual thought is important and serves a purpose but organized religion is very hard for me to accept.

x2

123456789

INAT

10-31-2008, 03:46 PM

x2

123456789

Any organization or individual that claims to know or understand the divine cosmic force that some call God is (for me) instantly discredited.
How can our simple minds understand this awesome force in its full scope?
I guess blind faith was not meant for me.

seraosha

10-31-2008, 03:53 PM

"Full Scope" is a tall order...even our best and brightest are afforded only a small view of the totality of creation. And I'm talking about Hawking, Planck, and Heisenberg, not Pious XI.

OnTheRocks

10-31-2008, 03:54 PM

You're going to have to broaden your views here. Religion does not require a supreme being, rules, ethics, ceremony, dogma, officials, relics, organization, sacred texts, rituals or any external manifestation of belief or tradition outside the mind of the believer. It can be completely private, arbitrary and utterly unknown to all persons outside the self. Therefore, atheism is a perfectly valid religion like any other. It's just one more half-assed way of looking at reality. Tell me, for example, of how an atheist’s belief in the creation of the universe - no matter what it is (i.e. any way that does not involve a god) does not depend upon faith? And how is that faith any different- any better or worse - than the brand of faith that anybody else, any other religion, organized or not, has?

Atheism has nothing to do with how the universe was created.
One person and his beliefs does not constitute a religion.
Like I said, it is a single position on one issue, lack of belief in a god, nothing else, people take the meaning of what atheism is too far, it is however, simply that.
Theism is the state of mind where you believe in a god, atheism is the lack of that belief, saying that I don't believe you isn't a religion.

The creation of the universe and no-matter, what, has nothing to do with atheism. How life was created, evolution or anything else, has nothing to do with atheism in it self, it is a personal belief that you have outside of the fact that you are an atheist, and the two don't have to conflict.

SBL

10-31-2008, 03:55 PM

Any organization or individual that claims to know or understand the divine cosmic force that some call God is (for me) instantly discredited.
How can our simple minds understand this awesome force in it full scope?
I guess blind faith was not meant for me.
I agree to a point. But accepting that there is a God, and that his scope and motives are beyond our understanding, how can you disregard with any certainty, the idea that he reveals himself (to any degree) to individuals?

The Dane

10-31-2008, 03:58 PM

RIP religion..

robertico420

10-31-2008, 03:58 PM

You're going to have to broaden your views here. Religion does not require a supreme being, rules, ethics, ceremony, dogma, officials, relics, organization, sacred texts, rituals or any external manifestation of belief or tradition outside the mind of the believer. It can be completely private, arbitrary and utterly unknown to all persons outside the self. Therefore, atheism is a perfectly valid religion like any other. It's just one more half-assed way of looking at reality. Tell me, for example, of how an atheist’s belief in the creation of the universe - no matter what it is (i.e. any way that does not involve a god) does not depend upon faith? And how is that faith any different- any better or worse - than the brand of faith that anybody else, any other religion, organized or not, has?

Yeah wouldn't it be great if everybody kept their own half-assed ways of looking at reality to themselves.

Regarding the creation of the universe, an atheist would simply say that we don't know enough about how the universe works to start speculating about how it was created. The difference is that an atheist needs hard facts to validate reality, while a religious person relies on self delusions.

seraosha

10-31-2008, 04:01 PM

Yeah wouldn't it be great if everybody kept their own half-assed ways of looking at reality to themselves...

Lead by example, 420.

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 04:02 PM

I agree to a point. But accepting that there is a God, and that his scope and motives are beyond our understanding, how can you disregard with any certainty, the idea that he reveals himself (to any degree) to individuals?

Why would such a force reveal itself to us? Do you "reveal" yourself to ants? Do you care about how they fornicate? Well this god dude is supposedly a billion times more complex vis a vis humans then us vis a vis ants.

m.i.t

10-31-2008, 04:03 PM

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 04:03 PM

OnTheRocks

10-31-2008, 04:05 PM

Yeah wouldn't it be great if everybody kept their own half-assed ways of looking at reality to themselves.

Indeed, Im off, my hockeyteam is winning by the breadth of an ass hair with 15 minutes to go in the 3rd

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 04:05 PM

Russian_dude

10-31-2008, 04:06 PM

Atheism has nothing to do with how the universe was created.
One person and his beliefs does not constitute a religion.
Like I said, it is a single position on one issue, lack of belief in a god, nothing else, people take the meaning of what atheism is too far, it is however, simply that.
Theism is the state of mind where you believe in a god, atheism is the lack of that belief, saying that I don't believe you isn't a religion.

The creation of the universe and no-matter, what, has nothing to do with atheism. How life was created, evolution or anything else, has nothing to do with atheism in it self, it is a personal belief that you have outside of the fact that you are an atheist, and the two don't have to conflict.

You can be a capitalist atheist and a communist atheist.

It is hard to believe for American Xtians but jesus was a commie.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 04:08 PM

Lead by example, 420.

But how will I up my post count than?:-(

I wont hate you if you see my views as half-assed, I promise. :lol:

INAT

10-31-2008, 04:14 PM

I agree to a point. But accepting that there is a God, and that his scope and motives are beyond our understanding, how can you disregard with any certainty, the idea that he reveals himself (to any degree) to individuals?

I was mainly talking about church dogma and how it is posed as the word of God. I do not discount individuals and any spiritual experience that someone has had. That kind of thing is purely subjective.

There have been studies that suggest that our brains are wired for religious experiences. From what I remember reading parts of the brain that are active during lets say Sunday mass are the same parts of the brain that are active during traditionally Eastern/Buddhist meditation.
What was interesting is that same region of the temporal lobe that is active during religious experience is also active during a grand mal seizure.

When I was young I suffered from epilepsy,I would have petit mal seizures and then it developed into grand mal.But this is what got me interested in readng about the human mind and all the things it is capable of that we do not yet fully understand.Mine was genetic and eventually subsided
wth treatment.

Here is an interestng story.

"The idea is that the brain is set up in ways to help us survive," he explained earlier in the week. Religion "offers the reassurance that there is purpose and causal effect in this pretty scary world." Thus, "religious and spiritual experiences are right in line with what the brain is trying to do for us" by helping us to function and make sense of life here on the third rock from the sun.
http://www.texnews.com/1998/religion/brain0221.html

robertico420

10-31-2008, 04:17 PM

You can be a capitalist atheist and a communist atheist.

It is hard to believe for American Xtians but jesus was a commie.

A yoga hippie commie.rofl

NeedsABetterName

10-31-2008, 04:23 PM

If that's the case, then it would seem that "religion" isn't the root of the problem.

Religion enters the problem when it is used as an excuse to go to war over money.

BlackFlag

10-31-2008, 04:38 PM

"When it comes to bull****, big-time, major league bull****, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull**** story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull**** story. Holy ****!"

George Carlin. Quoted for truth.

INAT

10-31-2008, 04:49 PM

failed.Let me try again.

INAT

10-31-2008, 04:50 PM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRn3PzRYhE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbRn3PzRYhE)

NSFW (Language)

eskachig

10-31-2008, 04:53 PM

İf there is no God (Allah) and soul so what are we?
combination of complex chemical reactions ?
Yup.

What is the difference between us and a couple of coffe on the table ?
just more complex reactions ?Yup.

so actually my familiy have no great difference from another materials like stones .You're mostly carbon with a bunch of water and some other junk. Carbon is useful to self organizing systems because it bonds easily and allows complex chemistry.

this thought disturbs me...l think it will disturb next generations much more harmfull than me...Yes it is disturbing. Some philosophers call this the existential crisis every being must go through in order to be free.

No soul No life..
You're both over and underthinking this. Remember your Descartes (his thesis is full of genius and yet he abandons his own conclusions in the end, kind of sad). You think, therefore you are. Pretty much the only thing you can absolutely be certain of is that you exist as a thinking thing. So life is definitely certain.

Now to have a soul you have to extend that concept, say that there is something immaterial (but somehow interacting with the physical), exists forever, etc. But why bother to make such a hefty ****ouncement without a shred of proof?

You exist, you think, you feel. Your family also exits (solipsism sucks anyway), thinks, feels. All of you have a short time here, be happy, be alive.

Even if it's a cosmic accident with no purpose life is glorious.

You should look into Humanism and Existentialism if these things bother you.

IronFinn

10-31-2008, 04:56 PM

We are all children of the stars. Born of bits from supernovas.

2Sheds_Jackson

10-31-2008, 04:59 PM

Lets say you were born on a deserted island and have never heard about religion or god. How is your atheism a belief in the absence o something if you don't even know that that something can exists.

As I talked about before...one needn't "hear about" religion. Somebody who was raised in a plywood box and has never seen the outside world has religious views about it's origin and purpose...he's made up his own religion without ever hearing it from somebody else.

But back to your example...if there are no animals on the deserted island to eat, does it mean you choose to be a vegetarian? Whether one actively rejects the idea of a deity, or one's religion simply never conjured the idea of a god, one can be an atheist. From Wiki:

"It has been contended that this broad definition includes newborns and other people who have not been exposed to theistic ideas. As far back as 1772, Baron d'Holbach said that "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."[31] Similarly, George H. Smith (1979) suggested that: "The man who is unacquainted with theism is an atheist because he does not believe in a god. This category would also include the child with the conceptual capacity to grasp the issues involved, but who is still unaware of those issues. The fact that this child does not believe in god qualifies him as an atheist"

Regarding the creation of the universe, an atheist would simply say that we don't know enough about how the universe works to start speculating about how it was created. The difference is that an atheist needs hard facts to validate reality, while a religious person relies on self delusions.

That's completely untrue. Scientific, i.e. "non-creationist" origins of the universe are routinely taught in every public school across the nation as fact...when in reality, we actually have no hard facts.

Atheism has nothing to do with how the universe was created.
One person and his beliefs does not constitute a religion.

Really? Then what's the threshold at which beliefs become religion? 2? 10? 100? The dictionary says :

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

...I don't see any number requirement in there. The minimum number is of course 1...since this is all about individual belief.

Like I said, it is a single position on one issue, lack of belief in a god, nothing else, people take the meaning of what atheism is too far, it is however, simply that.
Theism is the state of mind where you believe in a god, atheism is the lack of that belief, saying that I don't believe you isn't a religion.

That's very true. But saying "I don't believe you" is only half the atheist’s statement. An atheist says: "I don't believe, you AND I have alternate views about reality that do not involve a god".

The creation of the universe and no-matter, what, has nothing to do with atheism. How life was created, evolution or anything else, has nothing to do with atheism in it self, it is a personal belief that you have outside of the fact that you are an atheist, and the two don't have to conflict.

Oh that's silly - it's the entire framework around which the term is constructed. Atheism is personal belief about the lack of a god or gods - we agree so far - and then one must extend that to what function a deity fulfills? Does it build cars?

Atheism is a worldview wherein we exist in a reality not created by, nor attended to by a god. And since we do exist in a reality, then an alternate means of creation must have existed. It follows that since atheists have no proof of what that alternate means was, they are every bit as faith based as anybody else.

Violet Fashion by Mindy

10-31-2008, 04:59 PM

Religion is a delusion created in a time when science could not yet explain things.

SBL

10-31-2008, 05:01 PM

Why would such a force reveal itself to us? Do you "reveal" yourself to ants? Do you care about how they fornicate? Well this god dude is supposedly a billion times more complex vis a vis humans then us vis a vis ants.

There are people who make a point of concerning themselves with just that.

As far as "why" is concerned, I believe it to be because we are the product of his creation. Perhaps, not dissimilar to how an artist or musician takes a vested interest in the product of his/her imagination.

SBL

10-31-2008, 05:07 PM

Religion enters the problem when it is used as an excuse to go to war over money.
Certainly, but that still wouldn't make it the root, which seems to be the primary idea being advanced by certain people in this thread.

INAT

10-31-2008, 05:11 PM

Religion is a delusion created in a time when science could not yet explain things.

Some think that science is the enemy of religion.In some forms of thought.

I like Einstein's views on religion and God.

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. (Albert Einstein)

IronFinn

10-31-2008, 05:17 PM

İf there is no God (Allah) and soul so what are we ?

combination of complex chemical reactions ?

What is the difference between us and a couple of coffe on the table ?

just more complex reactions ?

so actually my familiy have no great difference from another materials like stones .

hmmm..

this thought disturbs me...l think it will disturb next generations much more harmfull than me...

No soul No life..

Do not worry, the material in you will not disappear. It came from different sources and will move on after you. Therefore you will last forever, only in a different form.

"matter cannot be created/destroyed, although it may be rearranged"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass

Calanen

10-31-2008, 05:18 PM

Old news
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19660408,00.html

And as a former atheist who is now a practicing Roman Catholic, I disagree.

Religion will never die, as long as people die. If we ever got to the stage through genetic manipulation and medical advances that people lived a really long time, or perhaps, indefinitely, then I would expect a greater decline in religious observance.

The human condition - friends die, I die, I feel sad about that - if i have religion, everyone goes to heaven, so its not so bad. If I dont have that, then, things are pretty crap and its hard to cope with life. So while that need exists, so too will religion.

I think practical observance of religion through attending services will have to decline, as much as anything because everyone is so time poor at the moment.

eskachig

10-31-2008, 05:21 PM

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You're going to have to broaden your views here. Religion does not require a supreme being, rules, ethics, ceremony, dogma, officials, relics, organization, sacred texts, rituals or any external manifestation of belief or tradition outside the mind of the believer. It can be completely private, arbitrary and utterly unknown to all persons outside the self.

You can redefine religion to be whatever you want, as the concept is flexible but here's a common dictionary type definition:

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Atheism fails all of those except for maybe the fourth, and that's only in the case of the 'militant atheist'. But then again that's such a vague statement that someone's sport, hobby, or political activity may be similarly described. I'd say it's vague enough to be useless, and in common language we only use the first 3.

Therefore, atheism is a perfectly valid religion like any other. It's just one more half-assed way of looking at reality.
Atheism is a practical result of a skeptical worldview. It's in no way a religion. I do actually agree that 'hard' atheism is a little silly because proof is impossible by definition. I prefer a softer position that can be summed thusly: "If a concept is made up arbitrarily with no evidence I'm going to assume it doesn't exist". Works for pink unicorns, flying spagetti monsters, and God.

Tell me, for example, of how an atheist’s belief in the creation of the universe - no matter what it is (i.e. any way that does not involve a god) does not depend upon faith? And how is that faith any different- any better or worse - than the brand of faith that anybody else, any other religion, organized or not, has?
Belief in creation? Even the term "creation" is loaded. I prefer "origin". But sure I'll try to explain a typical atheist position and show why it doesn't require the same sort of faith as religion.

An atheist, or any kind of skeptic should be very comfortable with the phrases "I don't know", and "to the best of my knowledge". If you ask me why the universe exists I will simply say "I don't know". That's fine with me. I think that's enough for everyone. Do I think that we should learn as much as we can about it? Sure. But randomly making up untestable explanations only hampers us. So... no faith involved.

What you probably wanted to talk about when you brought up faith is the science of Cosmology. I think Cosmology is awesome - but note that it's trying to understand the first seconds of the universe, when time started. It doesn't try to make guesses past that - no evidence. Be as it may I think it's a wonderful science and do try to keep up with it out of sheer curiosity. But yeah, ask any real scientist why the universe exists and they'll tell you "I don't know, and I don't know how to find out". And that's ok.

Science is a process to trying to explain the world we find in it. I have 'faith' in the approach, the scientific method, peer review, etc. I know scientists get things wrong all the time, that's kind of the point. They argue, test, experiment, and their theories improve and become more useful and explanatory. When I read about a scientific theory I know that it's being debated and tested thoroughly, so generally I think it's a good idea to rely on this knowledge. It's proven to be the most powerful intellectual tool humans have. When you have to make a serious call based on modern science it's a bit of a gamble, but it's a rational one. Sometimes you'll be wrong, but them's the breaks.

This isn't the same thing as faith in scripture.

eskachig

10-31-2008, 05:39 PM

That's completely untrue. Scientific, i.e. "non-creationist" origins of the universe are routinely taught in every public school across the nation as fact...when in reality, we actually have no hard facts.
No, evolution with a nod towards biogenesis is taught in school. When origin of the universe is taught the Big Bang theory is usually covered, because we have an awesome body of experimental evidence of what the first few seconds of universe's life were like. No science class ever talks about why the universe was created, or how it originated. Only how it "started out".

That's very true. But saying "I don't believe you" is only half the atheist’s statement. An atheist says: "I don't believe, you AND I have alternate views about reality that do not involve a god". Not really, it's much more simple than that. "I try to view reality without making up arbitrary explanations for why things are the way they are."

Atheism is a worldview wherein we exist in a reality not created by, nor attended to by a god. And since we do exist in a reality, then an alternate means of creation must have existed. It follows that since atheists have no proof of what that alternate means was, they are every bit as faith based as anybody else.
Not at all. You don't need a rock solid alternative explanation to say that someone is full of it. Otherwise I'm going to say that you have "irrational faith" that there isn't an invisible monkey on your head. I mean it's not like you have any proof that there isn't, right? It's not about faith, it's about skepticism, and believing in things that you have good evidence that shows their existance.

eskachig

10-31-2008, 05:40 PM

Religion is a delusion created in a time when science could not yet explain things.True, but it also touches on things Science will never even try to explain. It's a symbol of man's need to always know 'why?' and have a purpose.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 05:44 PM

That's completely untrue. Scientific, i.e. "non-creationist" origins of the universe are routinely taught in every public school across the nation as fact...when in reality, we actually have no hard facts.

I am aware of that and I agree that it's wrong to present our current theories about the creation of the universe as scientific fact simply because there are many forces in the universe we do not fully understand(anti-mater, dark-mater, quantum mechanics etc....)....lol.....I have no doubt when/if we get more answers in the future wee will look back and laugh at how full of sh!t our education system was.

Now, to say that we have absolutly no facts about nature is rediculous....lol....I know for a fact that if you eat a fistfull of plutonium you are going to have a horrible death.

eskachig

10-31-2008, 05:49 PM

I am aware of that and I agree that it's wrong to present our current theories about the creation of the universe as scientific fact simply because there are many forces in the universe we do not fully understand(anti-mater, dark-mater, quantum mechanics etc....)....lol.....I have no doubt when/if we get more answers in the future wee will look back and laugh at how full of sh!t our education system was.Seriously, both of you need to check out a High School Physics text book because both of you are under strange assumptions. The cosmology section will cover the big bang because we're pretty damn sure that's how things began.

Chances are there will be a blurb about how we can only look back to the first few seconds, and how it's silly to even talk about something that happened "before" time began.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 05:57 PM

Certainly, but that still wouldn't make it the root, which seems to be the primary idea being advanced by certain people in this thread.

If you ask me, the root cause of conflict is fear. I guess that's why its important we discus our half-assed perceptions of reality with each other. But it seems to me that the only way we can resolve our differences, is with the use of logic.

iLikeFlickerstick

10-31-2008, 06:00 PM

Good. I hope all this faith based superstitious religious nonsense disappears forever. Talk about meaningless and utterly irrelevant institutions that only serves to divide people and fragment our world.

Good riddance

robertico420

10-31-2008, 06:08 PM

Seriously, both of you need to check out a High School Physics text book because both of you are under strange assumptions. The cosmology section will cover the big bang because we're pretty damn sure that's how things began.

Chances are there will be a blurb about how we can only look back to the first few seconds, and how it's silly to even talk about something that happened "before" time began.

If science is so sure about the origins of the universe, than why do we keep building bigger and bigger particle accelerators to fully understand the physics of subatomic particles.

Stephen Hawkins said 30 years ago that in 30 years we might have the definite answer to how the universe began, 10 years ago he said that in 30 years we might have a definite answer to how the universe began.

robertico420

10-31-2008, 06:11 PM

True, but it also touches on things Science will never even try to explain. It's a symbol of man's need to always know 'why?' and have a purpose.

I think you're making some assumptions here, how do you know what new questions future discoveries might bring up.

OnTheRocks

10-31-2008, 06:14 PM

Really? Then what's the threshold at which beliefs become religion? 2? 10? 100? The dictionary says :

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

...I don't see any number requirement in there. The minimum number is of course 1...since this is all about individual belief.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm) ****unciation Key
n.

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhēs- in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
CITE THIS SOURCE|PRINT
WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
atheism

noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God [ant: theism]
2. a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
CITE THIS SOURCE|PRINT
American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source - Share This
atheism [(ay-thee-iz-uhm)]

Denial that there is a God. (Compare agnosticism.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
CITE THIS SOURCE|PRINT
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

Atheism
A"the*ism\, n. [Cf. F. ath['e]isme. See Atheist.]

1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.

Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.

Atheism and pantheism are often wrongly confounded. --Shipley.

2. Godlessness.

That's very true. But saying "I don't believe you" is only half the atheist’s statement. An atheist says: "I don't believe, you AND I have alternate views about reality that do not involve a god".

OK I just posted a few dictionary definitions of atheism, Doesn't say anything about alternate views of reality.
The very meaning of the word atheism does not provide any answers to anything beyond the issue of god being real or not.If it did, it would be like saying that a car can go faster because it is red.

Oh that's silly - it's the entire framework around which the term is constructed. Atheism is personal belief about the lack of a god or gods - we agree so far - and then one must extend that to what function a deity fulfills? Does it build cars?

There is no reason for atheists to even consider what function a deity fulfills beyond the scope of comparing it for example to what function or purpose a pixie has because it is not real, physicists don't sit around imagining how cool it would be to have a new pair of laws of physics that we don't have that would explain how everything works or how they would change stuff. As far as I know no physicist spends his time on this,might fun to debate perhaps, but in the end completely irrelevant until proof is found that law XYZ actually exists.

This framework is the way that the term or notion of atheism is interpreted in society today when people talk about it and of course when people reject one idea of how everything came to be it is only natural to find out to keep trying to find out, it is the methodology and mindset of atheists that sets them apart from believers as I will explain further down.

Atheism is a worldview wherein we exist in a reality not created by, nor attended to by a god. And since we do exist in a reality, then an alternate means of creation must have existed. It follows that since atheists have no proof of what that alternate means was, they are every bit as faith based as anybody else.

Good point, however faith is a belief that is not grounded in proof or material evidence, where as atheism strictly adheres to proof and fact within the capacity that we as human beings are able to quire it and deem it as 'fact', hence it cannot be called faith or even a belief since:
Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony. .
Hence not faith, not absolute truth, but truth to the extent that we as humans for ourselves can prove what it is.

sorry for late reply, was watching hockey my team won (there is a god! :D)

SBL

10-31-2008, 06:19 PM

If you ask me, the root cause of conflict is fear. I guess that's why its important we discus our half-assed perceptions of reality with each other. But it seems to me that the only way we can resolve our differences, is with the use of logic.
I'll have to respectfully disagree. I think the root of the problem is the fact that each individual is concerned with how he or she can bend the world- and others- to his or her will. We all want things our way.

Now, if this is true- that "each man does what is right in his own eyes", that opens up all kinds of questions regarding what the right and wrong way to go about things. Relying on simple logic won't solve the basic problem, as without and sort of overarching morality, logic is free to be used and abused to one's own ends. The question then, of course is where do we take our cues in deciding what is moral or just?;)

Calanen

10-31-2008, 07:12 PM

Atheism is a worldview wherein we exist in a reality not created by, nor attended to by a god. And since we do exist in a reality, then an alternate means of creation must have existed. It follows that since atheists have no proof of what that alternate means was, they are every bit as faith based as anybody else.

Well not really. You have turned logic on its head. The absence of a belief in a given state of facts, is not a religious belief, or a faith based belief.

There is a hole in the road in the morning. You say that the magical green dragon made the whole. I say, there is no magical hole making green dragon. You then say 'AHA You cant DISPROVE there was a magical hole making green dragon, and as there is a HOLE - therefore - your religion says that holes are not made by magical green making dragons and you dont know who made the hole - so therefore you are just as faith based as the rest of us and your religion disbelieves in the magical green dragon.'

No, I just say I dont know who made the hole. And there wasnt a green dragon either, because the onus is on you to prove that your theory about the hole is correct. I just say, I dont know who did it and neither do you, and while we can have all manner of fantastic theories about who it was - neither the holes in your own theories nor my lack of providing a provable alternative - converts my absence of belief into a religion.

PVJ

10-31-2008, 07:32 PM

The whole idea of heaven and an afterlife seems ridiculous. I suppose people think heaven is where no one feels any pain, everyones always happy, etc. The reason people feel pain is because nerves send signals to the pain center of the brain that something hurts. Dopamine and Endorphins are released in the brain which produce the feeling of happiness and pleasure. All feelings and awareness are regulated by nerves, tissues, organs and chemical reactions in the brain. When the brain and cells die how are you supposed to feel or be aware of anything? Does your "soul" create a new brain and cells in heaven? Think about when you fall asleep. When i fall asleep i rarely dream, and when i wake up i never remember actually falling asleep. The difference between dieing and sleeping is you dont dream and you dont wake up. Its not like youl be able to "feel" yourself while your dead.

Gulag

10-31-2008, 07:38 PM

True, but it also touches on things Science will never even try to explain. It's a symbol of man's need to always know 'why?' and have a purpose.

yeah, but only the wise one

Alfacentori

10-31-2008, 07:47 PM

What if science proves there is no soul. Just like their is no "Force". Love is nothing but a biological process in the brain... and not a very good one at that ("love makes you blind")

I threw love/soul in there as religion also makes you blind, religion isn't based on facts but on belief. I can historically pick appart any religion you choose to name, but that doesn't stop people believing, there is a basic need to think life is meaningful and not pointless.

this one certainly has been you and your imaginary friend can do one

I think you, as a lot of people did read it all wrong, I'm not even religious, but the vast majority of people are, what does that tell you?
Tells me that the majority of people, billions of them want and need to believe, what is what the thread was about.

And how many foxholes has the peaceful, prosperous West seen in the past half-century? How many are we likely to see in the next half-century?

If religion wishes to hang on, it must base itself on a sturdier foundation than merely this.

Religion is hanging on, regardless of what you think, or I think, or science says. I'm certainly not defending religion, I've got my own issues with it.
And as I already said the 'quote' about foxholes is a military quote/proberb, afterall this is a military forum, you and a few others need to not take everything so literally.

Alfa

PVJ

10-31-2008, 08:24 PM

I threw love/soul in there as religion also makes you blind, religion isn't based on facts but on belief. I can historically pick appart any religion you choose to name, but that doesn't stop people believing, there is a basic need to think life is meaningful and not pointless.

I think you, as a lot of people did read it all wrong, I'm not even religious, but the vast majority of people are, what does that tell you?
Tells me that the majority of people, billions of them want and need to believe, what is what the thread was about.

Religion is hanging on, regardless of what you think, or I think, or science says. I'm certainly not defending religion, I've got my own issues with it.
And as I already said the 'quote' about foxholes is a military quote/proberb, afterall this is a military forum, you and a few others need to not take everything so literally.

Alfa

Not believing in religion dosent make life meaningless. People are given 70-100+ years of life to experience, learn, and enjoy everything there is on Earth and life, but instead of making the best of the time they have, people want to believe their soul will be immortal.

There needs to be a clarification between belief and organized religion. I do believe organized religion will and should die. If people lived for thousands of years without organized religion we can certainly go back to it. Belief cannot die because its based on free will and choice. Organized religions, such as Catholicism, or Islam aren't based on free will or choice, people are expected to follow the koran and bible regardless of how they feel. So yes organized religions should and will die out. People have gone from obeying everything the Catholic Church and bible told them to the letter, in the dark ages, to where many people are agnostic, athiest, or just dont know and religion has no power or influence on them. Eventually organized religions will die out, but belief will always survive.

Alfacentori

10-31-2008, 08:42 PM

Not believing in religion dosent make life meaningless. People are given 70-100+ years of life to experience, learn, and enjoy everything there is on Earth and life, but instead of making the best of the time they have, people want to believe their soul will be immortal.

I totally agree, I don't think my life is meaningless, as a non religious person. But some people it seems need to think there is more, something beyond, religion has always filled a gap for many, can't say I understand why or how.

There needs to be a clarification between belief and organized religion. I do believe organized religion will and should die. If people lived for thousands of years without organized religion we can certainly go back to it. Belief cannot die because its based on free will and choice. Organized religions, such as Catholicism, or Islam aren't based on free will or choice, people are expected to follow the koran and bible regardless of how they feel. So yes organized religions should and will die out. People have gone from obeying everything the Catholic Church and bible told them to the letter, in the dark ages, to where many people are agnostic, athiest, or just dont know and religion has no power or influence on them. Eventually organized religions will die out, but belief will always survive.

I agree to a large extent, as someone who has/is studying history I can tell you that every organised religion I have looked doesn't stand up to historical/scientific scrutiny, the claims their holy books make, dates, events etc. And if you trace the history of their belief systems, how they evolved, have been altered for political reasons over the centuries again and again etc it all becomes a bit farsical.
Organised religion has been used as a vehicle to control people for as long as there has been organised society. Young people aren't given the choice of belief they are indoctrinated and in turn they indoctrinate their children etc. This being quite different, as you point out, from belief based on fre will, belief will never die as it's part of basic human make up to a degree.

Alfa

LRPV

10-31-2008, 11:09 PM

Creation.

....................

Hollis

10-31-2008, 11:38 PM

Lack of belief is not a belief. Being bald is not a hair style neither health is a desease. Religious people proclaim there is a god, it is up to them to prove that statement. Otherwise I will challenge them to disprove that there is an invisible elf living in my garden.

I did not say lack of belief is a belief.

You are missing too much.

Faith or belief is basically accepting a non fact as fact. There are people who "believe" certain theories are fact. That is a contradiction of terms. Example, the theories of the origins of the species. Not all religious people believe in "god(s)".

sinophile

11-01-2008, 12:11 AM

Religion will be just fine. We're wired for it.

Humans 'hardwired for religion (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/04/religion.uk)'

James Randerson
guardian.co.uk,
Monday September 04 2006 16.30 BST
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/04/religion.uk#history-byline)

The battle by scientists against "irrational" beliefs such as creationism is ultimately futile, a leading experimental psychologist said today.The work of Bruce Hood, a professor at Bristol University, suggests that magical and supernatural beliefs are hardwired into our brains from birth, and that religions are therefore tapping into a powerful psychological force.
"I think it is pointless to think that we can get people to abandon their belief systems because they are operating at such a fundamental level," said Prof Hood. "No amount of rational evidence is going to be taken on board to get people to abandon those ideas."
He told the annual British Association Festival of Science in Norwich that the standard bearers for evolution, such as the biologist Richard Dawkins and the philosopher Daniel Dennet, had adopted a counterproductive and "simplistic" position.
"They have basically said there are two types of people in the world," he said - "those who believe in the supernatural and those who do not. But almost everyone entertains some form of irrational beliefs even if they are not religious.
"For example, many people would be reluctant to part with a wedding ring for an identical ring because of the personal significance it holds. Conversely, many people are disgusted by an object if it has associations with 'evil'."
In his lectures, Prof Hood produces a rather boring-looking blue cardigan with large brown buttons and invites people in the audience to put it on, for a £10 reward. As you may expect, there is invariably a sea of raised hands. He then reveals that the notorious murderer Fred West wore the cardigan. Nearly everyone puts their hand down.
Unfortunately, it is just a stunt: the cardigan is not West's. But it illustrates the way even the most rational of people are can be irrationally made to feel uncomfortable.
Another experiment involves asking subjects to cut up a photograph. When his team then measures their galvanic skin response - ie sweat production, which is what lie-detector tests monitors - there is a jump in the reading. This does not occur when a person destroys an object of less sentimental significance.

timetraveller

11-01-2008, 12:46 AM

1234567890

People are getting wise ,, joinin the church you automatically give a percentage of your earnings to the church FACT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The church are whingin cos the coffers are down ....

And the church is the biggest land owner ownly 2nd to the goverment ..

Church should never make profit , but it does ..

Jesus never made profit from his appearances .

And the Church must never be seen as a Political Power which it was ... and still has influence ..

Blue_0

11-01-2008, 01:14 AM

While I like to think of my self as an atheist, in truth I am ending up towards the shinto / buddist traditions, although that really is not my intention. Its interesting that I see the non-church going friends around me heading the same way or already their.

I don't like to believe in Karma for example, but I do believe if your a good person statistically it is likely that good things are more likely to happen to you. And if your a nasty person, the same thing holds true in how people respond to you.

I find myself unable to believe in an absolute god, but a god of limited powers, I cannot discount that.

Weasel

11-01-2008, 03:49 AM

People are getting wise ,, joinin the church you automatically give a percentage of your earnings to the church FACT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The church are whingin cos the coffers are down ....

And the church is the biggest land owner ownly 2nd to the goverment ..

Church should never make profit , but it does ..

Jesus never made profit from his appearances .

And the Church must never be seen as a Political Power which it was ... and still has influence ..

How do you run any institution without profit?

LRPV

11-01-2008, 04:34 AM

Profit is what is left after running costs? An institution only needs funds to administrate its needs. Profit is for business.

Weasel

11-01-2008, 04:43 AM

And profits are used to increase business - to expand.

Flagg

11-01-2008, 04:45 AM

I can't be bothered to go through the entire thread........but in terms of religion I think:

1.) Religion is alive and well.......filling spiritual, emotional, and/or entertainment wants/needs in people is not likely to die off anytime soon.

2.) Religion, if anything, is growing rather than contracting........Scientology, the Church of Star Wars, and the newest and fastest growing religion in all of history The Church of Global Warming led by the Carbon Footprint Pope Al "Khmer Vert" Gore and his Prius driving Spanish Inquisitors.

I believe religion is a growth industry........people will always desperately seek redemption, salvation, solace, comfort, leadership, and answers.

Just my 0.02 cents

Gulag

11-01-2008, 04:45 AM

http://www.bagofnothing.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/jesussaveslarge.jpg

INAT

11-01-2008, 05:10 AM

Religion will be just fine. We're wired for it.

Interesting story.That is what suggested in my last few posts.
The part about our brains beng wired for religion.

2Sheds_Jackson

11-01-2008, 05:43 AM

Well not really. You have turned logic on its head. The absence of a belief in a given state of facts, is not a religious belief, or a faith based belief.

There is a hole in the road in the morning. You say that the magical green dragon made the whole. I say, there is no magical hole making green dragon. You then say 'AHA You cant DISPROVE there was a magical hole making green dragon, and as there is a HOLE - therefore - your religion says that holes are not made by magical green making dragons and you dont know who made the hole - so therefore you are just as faith based as the rest of us and your religion disbelieves in the magical green dragon.'

No, I just say I dont know who made the hole. And there wasnt a green dragon either, because the onus is on you to prove that your theory about the hole is correct. I just say, I dont know who did it and neither do you, and while we can have all manner of fantastic theories about who it was - neither the holes in your own theories nor my lack of providing a provable alternative - converts my absence of belief into a religion.

True, your absence of belief in the green dragon doesn't constitute a religion - but your contrary belief system in which there are no green dragons would be a religion. It must be. If a hole producing green dragon = a religion, then any alternate (and unprovable) mechanism that produces holes must also be a religion. The "unprovable" part is vital - since religion and philosophy deal with the inherently unknowable, not the knowable. Your analogy there isn't so great for just that reason (i.e. we can usually figure out where holes came from).

But if we substitute "reality" for "holes"...I have my dragon that made reality...if you agree that reality exists, you'd have to suggest an alternate belief system in which there are no green dragons. If my dragon is my religion, then your theories would be your religion. The only way for you to avoid the trap of religion would be to not suggest an alternate view...but as human beings, that's what sets us apart from things like toasters. They accept things as-is, and we ask questions.

Violet Fashion by Mindy

11-01-2008, 08:54 AM

If 2Sheds starts a religion I'm sure to follow that

Lazy Lob

11-01-2008, 08:57 AM

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7396/bewaredogmacrossug3.jpg

DaGreatRV

11-01-2008, 03:25 PM

Will religion die?
In developing countries I don't see that happening, people are poor and uneducated, major factors in religions/cults.

In the western/first/developed world, people idolize pop/moviestars, rich celebrities join all sorts of crazy cults.

Unfortunatly I think it won't die off.

Yes, I'm an atheist.
Yes, I'm not affraid to say "I don't know".

m.i.t

11-01-2008, 04:02 PM

İt should not be so much easy... Offcourse there is a God...

İn my univercity my statistics teacher had told me current life system and cycling

of life forms possibilities are over 1/ 100.000.000.000.000.000. 000.000.000.000.
and several hundred 0 s...Actually he said it was impossible...

a new simpliest DNA model construction is impossible with technology And nature who has no mind creates his own perfect models...

Actually there is no even single life form have been created from inorganic materials ...

Most idiot bug is still more advanced than any computer...

A life form cant be produced without assistance of any other life form...

l think there is an architect. (masons call him as an archictect )

İf l m wrong it wont be problem for us after death..

İf l m not wrong ( God may like to tease with atheists with that scintific tricks ) l ll be

caring with 72 virgins in heaven while atheists will be cared by 72 hell zebanis(kings of

hell guards) forever....

No ... l ll be stay at side of teists ...

IronFinn

11-01-2008, 05:37 PM

l ll be caring with 72 virgins in heaven

Thats a nice deal for you but what about women, do they get 72 virgin men?

Niels

11-01-2008, 06:15 PM

l ll be

caring with 72 virgins in heaven while atheists will be cared by 72 hell zebanis(kings of

hell guards) forever....
I believe atheists will be transported to a lush island in Polynesia together with a magic spirit that will grant us an infinte amount of wishes and muslims will suffer forever in Hokduahdakuiji-land. Sucks for you eh?

Prove me wrong.

Jurinko

11-01-2008, 06:28 PM

I would say, that the nations losing the religion are doomed to extinction. Look at the Europe, there are hardly few countries with birth rate sufficient for keeping the population steady. Most of them will decline (at least the original population), and it will get much faster after few decades since now strong after-war population is still alive. Poor birthrate is directly related to the lack of religion - no rules, less families, unstable families, singles -> less kids.

Blue_0

11-01-2008, 08:30 PM

LaoSexMachine

11-01-2008, 08:40 PM

Religion will never "die". It's part of the human nature. Just like war and compassion.

2Sheds_Jackson

11-01-2008, 09:48 PM

If 2Sheds starts a religion I'm sure to follow that

My religion would be totally awesome. It would have a sin threshold so low, and bonus points redeemable in the afterlife - people would be crazy not to join.

I was doing some more reading because all you argumentative bastards forced me to do it...and was reminded of something surprisingly obvious. Theravada Buddhism. Buddhism is considered one of the world's great religions - and every last one of those 100 million Theravada Buddhists is an atheist. It's just one example of a real, honest-to-goodness, dues paying, card carrying atheist religion.

EZFEED

11-02-2008, 05:58 AM

Interesting topic. :) In my own take, I've always wondered how anyone could think that the Bible could be anything less than the inspired word of God. I mean seriously......what kind of man or men would write a book condemning themselves and their own kind? Pretty much every other religion places mankind on a pedestal and offers the presupposition that man is basically a good creature and capable of saving himself be it through works or some sort of spiritual enlightenment. Then you take Christianity where one learns after study of the word (or through circumstance) that man is a flawed and carnal being, incomplete and incapable of controlling his thoughts and actions and is basically evil and vengeful in nature, only pursuing his own selfish welfare. He is told through divine revelation (because he really cannot come to this conclusion through his own reasoning, even after studying the word) that the only way he is to make a change in his life is to accept the fact that he is a flawed and ugly creature and must put his faith in something he cannot see, touch, or fully comprehend, understanding that through no works or means of his own can he earn his salvation but instead can only accept it as a divine gift given freely from his creator as a result of his choice to seek a better life through that same divine being. Now that is the Bible, no denominational hogwash attached.
Lets not forget that aside from all of mans hoopla and misinterpretations that resulted in “holy wars”, according to the Bible Christians are charged to love others even enemies and the concept of self-sacrifice is a fundamental core. No where outside of self defense and the reinforcement of the law is man given the “OK” to take a life, that is according to the written word and taken in context.

At least to me thats my opinion on it, it just strikes me as kind of odd that any regular man would come up with all of that on his own?

It's sad that discusions like these really only end up in flame fests because they do turn out some interesting things. Each person has their own take and interpretation of what is right and what is wrong and that clash of diversity sure can make a mess. Such is the same with religions, denominations, etc.....sometimes opinions and doing what feels right can really be the undoing of the whole.

Calanen

11-02-2008, 07:46 AM

caring with 72 virgins in heaven while atheists will be cared by 72 hell zebanis(kings of

hell guards) forever....

Cool. I'm gonna set up my own Roller Disco down there.

boet faas

11-02-2008, 02:32 PM

boet faas

11-02-2008, 02:35 PM

boet faas

11-02-2008, 02:36 PM

Thats a nice deal for you but what about women, do they get 72 virgin men?

Good point!

m.i.t

11-02-2008, 02:53 PM

Thats a nice deal for you but what about women, do they get 72 virgin men?

lm not sure . if she was never married she will get 20 male angels or servants...

if she was maried she will stay with her husband in heaven ...But she may get her servants too...

Niels

11-02-2008, 03:00 PM

People on this thread are missing the point on religion completely. It is clear that most think we live and then die and that is the end of you forever and ever, that sucks, dont you think??? If you think about yourself like that why not just commit suicide and get the ****ty extension of death over with. Why not go murder 100's of people, become a gangster contract aids and then die. Wouldnt that be a more fulfilling life than sitting behind your useless computers and portay your geekness to everyone. If you just die and thats it, why not make more of this miserable life and become Don Vito? Most of the replies on here are so empty in expression and human values I'm still falling through it after 2 days.
What you're saying is, you would be raping and killing if you didn't believe in god? Well that's nice. However, normal people don't go ape**** without a surrogate teddy bear. Mainly because there's no reason to and because working/living in groups is to everybody's advantage. The "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" deal is what allowed the creation of civilization along with its morals, not the amount of goats you sacrificed to the almighty one. All of that doesn't work when you want me dead for not buying your fairy tale, though.

You were created with a need to worship something, otherwise we would not have had this conversation. Everybody knows there is something bigger but because they cannot explain it they follow the popular belief instead of standing up for something. That is gutless.
What's gutless is your fear of the unknown and the denial you live in. Yes, it would suck if you die and nothing happens. That's why you should enjoy this life, the one that we are 100% sure about exists, as much as possible.

And as a point of interest, scientific experiments were done on dying people and it was found that people that have just died weighs 4 gram less than what they weighed before they died. Something got lost in the process. What was it???????You ought to read up on that.

And you know what the real scary part of it all is. All of the prophesies regarding Jesus were fulfilled just as they were prophesied 1000's of years before He died and rose again. So you religious "intellectual" nuts that believe otherwise, please explain that with science, or at the very least come up with a reasonable explanation for it????
wat

boet faas

11-02-2008, 03:01 PM

lm not sure . if she was never married she will get 20 male angels or servants...

if she was maried she will stay with her husband in heaven ...But she may get her servants too...

Enteresting! Just a quick observation. If, as a woman, you are not allowed under muslim rule to commit adultery, why then are you permitted to do so in heaven? The same question for a man. Where does the rules change? Why is a man allowed several wifes but a woman is not allowed several husbands? Dont you think this is opression of the other *** to a larger extent?

Elemental666

11-02-2008, 03:03 PM

People on this thread are missing the point on religion completely. It is clear that most think we live and then die and that is the end of you forever and ever, that sucks, dont you think???

Welcome to reality. It 'sucks' to think that we live and die forever and ever, so we must make up religious nonsense to comfort us.

Logic in action.

boet faas

11-02-2008, 03:08 PM

wat

What?? Did you say something there?

Yes that is what I am saying, how much pleasure are there in doing exactly what you want and getting the masses to fear you and respect you, loads more than what you can imagine. Why should anybody that has no future under death have to live with your so called rules of civilization.

What is it in you that makes you refrain from it? Is it maybe your conscience that was given to you by pure accident when evolution took place?

boet faas

11-02-2008, 03:11 PM

Welcome to reality. It 'sucks' to think that we live and die forever and ever, so we must make up religious nonsense to comfort us.

Logic in action.

Boet, you must have an extremely empty life with a view on life like that. What do you do for fun? Is it something that fills the void?

Elemental666

11-02-2008, 03:13 PM

Boet, you must have an extremely empty life with a view on life like that. What do you do for fun? Is it something that fills the void?

Tim, I don't waste my time on blind faith, that's what I do for fun.

Thanks for asking.

boet faas

11-02-2008, 03:22 PM

Tim, I don't waste my time on blind faith, that's what I do for fun.

Thanks for asking.

Always my pleassure. Have you ever tried blind faith?

Macs.

11-02-2008, 03:22 PM

RoyB

11-02-2008, 03:22 PM

Its true, we live and die forever and ever, and it doesn't mean everyone who say it find no point in life, we created a world for us, religion is a part of it, but some people (ie me) don't want to waste it worshiping something that we don't believe in.
Don't get me wrong, tradition is important, but respecting other people opinion is important too.
For some people all the 'God thing' is pure nonsense, for some its a way of life..

Niels

11-02-2008, 03:24 PM

What is it in you that makes you refrain from it? Is it maybe your conscience that was given to you by pure accident when evolution took place?
When my satanic atheist parents raised me, they taught me stealing etc was very bad. It makes sense, because us humans (most of us anyway) are capable of empathy and predicting what actions will provoke what emotions. Personally I wouldn't like it if someone stole my car, so I don't steal yours. And before you say god was responsible for all this magic; monkeys for example, are also capable of this.

Yes, simple explanations.

Always my pleassure. Have you ever tried blind faith?
"Blind" being the keyword.

Elemental666

11-02-2008, 03:26 PM

Always my pleassure. Have you ever tried blind faith?

If you are able to give me one logical reason why should I, I promise that I will.

We both know that you can't.

IronFinn

11-02-2008, 03:26 PM

Boet, you must have an extremely empty life with a view on life like that. What do you do for fun? Is it something that fills the void?

Well, for me (even you didn´t ask me), I will live my life enjoying every moment as long as possible with my loved ones. Then when I die I will just turn off like electric device and start rotting. Lights out, dispose the device and thats it, no regrets.

RoyB

11-02-2008, 03:27 PM

Oh and this kind of thread usually get to atheists trying to convince people that god doesn't exist, and the others try to convince them that god exist..
Belief doesn't require proof.

boet faas

11-02-2008, 03:27 PM

There is no rational reason to believe in "God". Non. Null. Zero. PERIOD.

It all come down to beliving, to theories that people/humans made up. You can talk 10000 pages about it. There is no proof. It's theory, beliving.

Not rational.

Not believing in God is irrational. I will ask my question again. Explain why the biblical prophecies surrounding Jesus were all realised many millenia after it was prophesied? The biblical proof of the existence of God is the the only verifiable evidence there is under any religion.

So, explain this away with what you deem "rational" reason.

RoyB

11-02-2008, 03:30 PM

For people who doesn't believe in god, believing in god is irrational.

Macs.

11-02-2008, 03:31 PM

Not believing in God is irrational. I will ask my question again. Explain why the biblical prophecies surrounding Jesus were all realised many millenia after it was prophesied? The biblical proof of the existence of God is the the only verifiable evidence there is under any religion.

So, Einstein, explain this away with what you deem "rational" reason.

rofl

What prophecies are you talking about ? Bring something on the table.

So, a book that is thousands of years old is the only proof that is avilable to prove god exists, oops. No real court on the face of this planet would take this "evidence". In a few hundred years there might also people who believe that Batman or Spiderman are real.

m.i.t

11-02-2008, 03:36 PM

Enteresting! Just a quick observation. If, as a woman, you are not allowed under muslim rule to commit adultery, why then are you permitted to do so in heaven?

There is common saying.Life is 3 days...

The same question for a man. Where does the rules change? Why is a man allowed several wifes but a woman is not allowed several husbands?

İts main purpose to prevent prostution in the community .You should consider islam came to world in AD 610. So there was no social security system nad feminists in the world . İf a women had no husband there was just 2 ways to live...
1- prostution 2- slavery...

Also you know women population generally more than men population entrie mankind history...And we shoudlnt forget gays...

İt means it was never easy to find a healthy real guy for each women....

best solution was polygamy...

boet faas

11-02-2008, 03:37 PM

If you are able to give me one logical reason why should I, I promise that I will.

We both know that you can't.

Follow my last post and put it to the test.

boet faas

11-02-2008, 03:47 PM

There is common saying.Life is 3 days...
Maybe you can explain that in laymans terms.

İts main purpose to prevent prostution in the community .You should consider islam came to world in AD 610. So there was no social security system nad feminists in the world . İf a women had no husband there was just 2 ways to live...
1- prostution 2- slavery...

Define prostitution? Isnt male prostitution considered prostitution? So for females not to prostitute they are only allowed 1 man, but for males not to prostitute they are allowed several?...Laymans terms please!

Also you know women population generally more than men population entrie mankind history...And we shoudlnt forget gays...

İt means it was never easy to find a healthy real guy for each women....

best solution was polygamy...

Still this accounts only for the need of a man. Why not a woman?

Elemental666

11-02-2008, 03:48 PM

If you are able to give me one logical reason why should I, I promise that I will.

We both know that you can't.

Wrong answer Mcfly. Follow my last post and put it to the test.

Thought so.

Macs summed it up nicely, there is no point in debating this issue. I won't change your mind, you won't change mine. The only difference is that not a moment of my life will be spent on this nonsense. Worked out just fine for me so far.

non

11-02-2008, 03:52 PM

boet faas:

If you think about yourself like that why not just commit suicide and get the ****ty extension of death over with.
Alternatively, the suggestion of suicide for the faithful could be suggested to hurry into the 'just rewards' part of the faith clause. I think the Catholics had to invent a law about that to keep members from trying to cheat the system, if I'm not mistaken.

I've never understood the perspective that the notion of there being no 'after-life' is depressing. I can only imagine it[an after-life] was created to ease the suffering of the living after loved ones died (which is the only painful part of not believing in an 'after-life',i.e. living after others die around you). Really religion made one's own personal death more a thing to fear. It made it an experience (otherwise, it's really not...you don't experience your own death. You don't linger around to lament your sudden 'non-being', you simply awake from a dream by going to sleep forever. Trippy, huh?:roll:)

However, there being an after-life? Well, given the existing descriptions of it, that's depressing. I can't imagine spending eternity with some meglo-maniacal being, who is utterly flawless, yet had to send an angel to rape a Jewish kid to have a son to die on a piece of wood, apparently, all because "sin" is like Kryptonite, unless dipped in blood like a bon-bon in chocolate(something almost every god or G-d has craved[blood]...buncha cosmic vampires. I hope they don't exist.). This God fella is either mis-representing on the omnipotent front or he's a total pervert that creates arbitrary rules for the sake of a strange obstacle course to ease the boredom of his own infinte existence. Now, does that sound like a more comforting thing to be a part of?

boet faas

11-02-2008, 04:00 PM

rofl

What prophecies are you talking about ? Bring something on the table.

So, a book that is thousands of years old is the only proof that is avilable to prove god exists, oops. No real court on the face of this planet would take this "evidence". In a few hundred years there might also people who believe that Batman or Spiderman are real.

These prophecies. To do it myself will take to long so I have googled it to shorten the time. Everything said about Jesus was fulfilled. He is historically verifiable precisely according to the bible.
http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/PROPHECY/ntquoted.htm

Unless you think history does not count as verifiable evidence then I assume you believe you were hatched under a stork?

boet faas

11-02-2008, 04:07 PM

Thought so.

Macs summed it up nicely, there is no point in debating this issue. I won't change your mind, you won't change mine. The only difference is that not a moment of my life will be spent on this nonsense. Worked out just fine for me so far.

Dont shy away from it now? You placed the challenge on the table, now be a man and follow it through. Dont make up your mind on what you think, go put it to the test and prove to yourself that you are right or wrong. Then at least you know for a fact it is true and everyone else involved in religion is either nuts or they were actually right.

Macs.

11-02-2008, 04:11 PM

These prophecies. To do it myself will take to long so I have googled it to shorten the time. Everything said about Jesus was fulfilled. He is historically verifiable precisely according to the bible.
http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/PROPHECY/ntquoted.htm

Unless you think history does not count as verifiable evidence then I assume you believe you were hatched under a stork?

Boet... Are you kidding me ? Are you serious ?

Reading the headline says it all "Many Old Testament Prophecies Of Jesus Christ Were Fulfilled In The New Testament". No ****. Spiderman 2 is also about Spiderman.

There is no proof. PERIOD.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

-Epicurus

boet faas

11-02-2008, 04:18 PM

Boet... Are you kidding me ? Are you serious ?

Reading the headline says it all "Many Old Testament Prophecies Of Jesus Christ Were Fulfilled In The New Testament". No ****. Spiderman 2 is also about Spiderman.

There is no proof. PERIOD.
Macs are you kidding me?

The bible, new testament is historically verifiable, therefore considered to be the truth. What part of verifiable is difficult for you to understand?

Lets argue the case. If the old testament is all bollocks and it never happened, why did everthing said became reality? If the new testament is bollocks, why is it historically verifiable?

Please provide proof of where spiderman was prophesied, by whom and how long ago? How did this prophesy became reality and where is it historically verifiable by real historians, not comic nuts with wild fantasies.

IDF_TANKER

11-02-2008, 04:23 PM

When my satanic atheist parents raised me, they taught me stealing etc was very bad. It makes sense, because us humans (most of us anyway) are capable of empathy and predicting what actions will provoke what emotions. Personally I wouldn't like it if someone stole my car, so I don't steal yours. And before you say god was responsible for all this magic; monkeys for example, are also capable of this.

Yes, simple explanations.

"Blind" being the keyword.

Yeah, but you would download it, wouldn't you? Typical satanist thinking.

EZFEED

11-02-2008, 04:23 PM

Oh and this kind of thread usually get to atheists trying to convince people that god doesn't exist, and the others try to convince them that god exist..
Belief doesn't require proof.

EXACTLY! Thats what makes faith....faith.
I think it is almost impossible for me to explain to another non-beliver how God makes himself present in my life. I have witnessed some amazing stuff and the Lord has worked in my life and provided for me to the point where I cannont even begin to explain it in any way you would find believable. Sure I can be a witness and make an attempt to explain to any one of you how real God is or how he makes himself known to me in my life but the fact is that without Him first initiating that link of receptiveness in a disbelievers life there is no way in my finite mortal being and limited reasoning that I could ever hope to "win you over" as some folks say and attempt to establish that faith in your life.
Without that intervention the whole thing then just becomes an argument of who's right and who's wrong and the fact is that NEITHER SIDE can establish tangible proof. Really one could argue that the proof is all around you if you are looking, its just that normally man does not want to see it or would rather explain its presence as an act of nature but even then it still ultimatley leads to an unknown.

In Christianity God is the one that reaches out to His creation and initiates that love and that "spiritual awareness", not the other way around like most other religions and if you havent had that desire pressed upon your being then you either have not come to that point where God wants you to be or you have ignored it and chosen another path of your own.

As a created being, bestowed with free will no one can force you into believing anything other than what is in your own capacity to believe. A Christian that attempts to prove otherwise to others through argumentative reasoning that his view is the right view is working on his own accord and not through the will of God (might want to think about that Boet Faas). That is a failure to acknowledge that his reasoning is flawed and finite and that the matter is entirely supernatural and at best his job is to be a good witness and give a good account when called upon. The everyday life of a Christian should reflect God and should be a beacon to others who are lost and seeking.

Crap....I gotta go to work, CYA later guys! :)

boet faas

11-02-2008, 04:24 PM

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

-Epicurus

God said, I lay before you life and death, blessing and curse, you therefore choose life.

God will prevent evil as far as what you allow Him too, that is your choice. Why condemn God if you chose death and curse?

So if you want to know where evil comes from. It is allowed by God for whomever decides to walk that path. You decide!!

Macs.

11-02-2008, 04:32 PM

Macs are you kidding me?

The bible, new testament is historically verifiable, therefore considered to be the truth. What part of verifiable is difficult for you to understand?

Lets argue the case. If the old testament is all bollocks and it never happened, why did everthing said became reality? If the new testament is bollocks, why is it historically verifiable?

Please provide proof of where spiderman was prophesied, by whom and how long ago? How did this prophesy became reality and where is it historically verifiable by real historians, not comic nuts with wild fantasies.

If you believe that there was a man who could walk over water, turn water into wine, come back from death and was born to a virgin, we cannot hold a discussion, because you lack basic rational thoughts. It's a insult to every thinking human.

Elemental666

11-02-2008, 04:33 PM

Dont shy away from it now? You placed the challenge on the table, now be a man and follow it through. Dont make up your mind on what you think, go put it to the test and prove to yourself that you are right or wrong. Then at least you know for a fact it is true and everyone else involved in religion is either nuts or they were actually right.

I asked you for a simple thing, provide me with ONE logical reason to believe in God. Obviously you dodged that one, so what exactly do you want here? For me to prove there is no God? Of course I can't do that. At least I'll admit it.

You on the other hand, said this:

The biblical proof of the existence of God is the the only verifiable evidence there is under any religion.

Proof of God is in the book itself. Right. If you'll quote these proofs, and post them here, I'll be very grateful. Open my eyes brother.

Redguy

11-02-2008, 04:44 PM

boet faas

11-02-2008, 04:44 PM

I asked you for a simple thing, provide me with ONE logical reason to believe in God. Obviously you dodged that one, so what exactly do you want here? For me to prove there is no God? Of course I can't do that. At least I'll admit it.

You on the other hand, said this:

Proof of God is in the book itself. Right. If you'll quote these proofs, and post them here, I'll be very grateful. Open my eyes brother.

You are busy missing allot of good posts! What do you call this? Circular reasoning?

Elemental666

11-02-2008, 04:46 PM

You are busy missing allot of good posts! What do you call this? Circular reasoning?

Stop dodging the question. Quote the proof.

boet faas

11-02-2008, 04:48 PM

As a created being, bestowed with free will no one can force you into believing anything other than what is in your own capacity to believe. A Christian that attempts to prove otherwise to others through argumentative reasoning that his view is the right view is working on his own accord and not through the will of God (might want to think about that Boet Faas).

Yeah I know. I'm done!

Violet Fashion by Mindy

11-02-2008, 04:49 PM

I dont know about you guys but what ever the **** the guy who came up the big lighting bolt up in the sky creating man story was on I know I sure want some .

Elemental666

11-02-2008, 04:54 PM

Yeah I know. I'm done!

rofl

What, NOW? Just when I was about to get convinced by the biblical proof of God's existence, all of a sudden you decide you had enough.

Follow your own advice next time:

Dont shy away from it now? You placed the challenge on the table, now be a man and follow it through.

Good day.

Macs.

11-02-2008, 05:49 PM

Saying religion will die is obviously wishful thinking on the parts of bitter atheists who actually take Richard Dawkins seriously. There is no doubt that religion will play a lesser role in the function of society. I mean look how far the Catholic church has fallen since its glory days. Religion, however, will always exist as long as science continues to fail at explaining the origins of existence. (In my opinion anyways)

Science does not "fail" at explaining the origins of existance. Science simply does not know "how" (yet). Science has already disproven all kinds of Religions on sooooo many accounts, it's pretty simple if you have a open mind.

How old do you believe that the earth is ? Do you believe in Evolution ? Did Dinosaur and Human co-exist ? Is this all "Science crap" ?

Fact is, ofcourse there will always be people believing in Religion - No matter if Science prooves them wrong or not. Religion offers the easy way out of these questions on "why" we exists. Instead of simply recognizing that we simply do not know, it seems that the truth is too hard for some people. Maybe it's better for a large part of people believing in a man who watches anything they do and fearing to go to hell. If all people were rational and simply looked at the facts as you purpose they do, why are there still so many Christians if the basic fundamental of the Bible are debunked ? (Creationism for example)

Look at all the "9/11 truthers" who still believe that the WTC was blown up by a goverment agency, eventhrough there are tons and tons of material that is debunking their claims. Ignorance is bliss.

Drako

11-02-2008, 05:52 PM

If you believe that there was a man who could walk over water, turn water into wine, come back from death and was born to a virgin, we cannot hold a discussion, because you lack basic rational thoughts. It's a insult to every thinking human.

First off, I think it is obvious noone thinks a MAN could do things you mentioned, that's what it is all about, isn't it?

Second - proove me that those things didn't happen. Well, you can't. Same as I can't show you any phisical proof they happened. But ok, you can say: but it is impossible so it couldn't have happened. Still, many things seem impossible and yet they happen: people fall off the planes without a parahute and they survive, people get shot in the head and they are alive, people get hit by thunders and they don't die while others jut put their fingers into the socket and die at once. Ok, then you can say: but all those things, although with little probability, are permitted by physics. Then what if I tell you that physics, with very little probability but still, permits you in this moment disappear and apper on the other side of the planet. BS? Well, not really. Similar thing happens very often just in micro-scale (quantum physics is the phrase you can start searching at). Ok, so we can go to the big bang and the creation theory if you like. So, at one side we have a theory saying that God created world in 6 days and pufff, here we are. Ok, we can stop laughing and move to the second one: the universe has came to being in the big explosion at the beginning of time (exactly - there was no move before the explosion so there was no time) from one point of infinite density. So far that's the only mathematical and physical model, one of many considered, of the universe which fits our real one. We shall not go deep into why it is the only one cos it is a long story so lets move on. So we have one theory which is about magical "pufff" and the other one which requires physical assupmtions which, how to say it, are not elegant: there was a point, not a ball, not a rock, not a sun, but a point with no dimensions; it has an infinite density although finite mass; if it has exploded, it had to be unstable, but if it achieved an infinite density it had to be stable so in the empty universe must have happened something what made a stable thing unstable. So at this point scientists couldn't move on without an act of creation. But it doesn't fit the physics without a God so it cant be right. So there's another option: our universe goes in circles - it goes bang, then at some point it collapses and again it goes bang and so on. Hmm, but it is also not elegant cos it is a perpetuum mobile while every reaction needs an action and it somehow must have started to work. Stephen Hawking decided that we should not bother what was before the big bang cos it couldn't have any meaning for our current universe (just like system reset, everything is lost, you have a fresh system) but it is just an escape from the problem and he admitted it (he might have developed a new theory in last couple of years, I'm not so up-to-date with his current works).

Ok so to the point of this long post: I'm not able convince you that God exists, I'm not able to show you proofs but also noone is able to proove that God doesn't exist and no matter how much you'll try, in any theory, in any thing that happens, there will always be a possibility that God had something to do with it.

stonecutter

11-02-2008, 05:56 PM

http://www.mrwiggleslovesyou.com/comics/rehab477.jpg

Drako

11-02-2008, 06:12 PM

...

And that's the difference of approach: atheist will say that I as believer am a medieval idiot and I'll say you have right to your own oppinion and that doesn't make you a worse man than I am.

Macs.

11-02-2008, 06:18 PM

First off, I think it is obvious noone thinks a MAN could do things you mentioned, that's what it is all about, isn't it?

Second - proove me that those things didn't happen. Well, you can't.
Same as I can't show you any phisical proof they happened.

This is not logic. Proof me wrong that there is a Dragon sitting on the dark side of the moon - What, you can't ?

But ok, you can say: but it is impossible so it couldn't have happened. Still, many things seem impossible and yet they happen: people fall off the planes without a parahute and they survive, people get shot in the head and they are alive, people get hit by thunders and they don't die while others jut put their fingers into the socket and die at once. Ok, then you can say: but all those things, although with little probability, are permitted by physics. Then what if I tell you that physics, with very little probability but still, permits you in this moment disappear and apper on the other side of the planet. BS? Well, not really.

Yeah well, it is pretty much BS. You seriously are trying to compare someone being hit by a lighting strike, or escaping death by something that we label as luck with someone who sits in "the sky" and watches every step we do ?

So we have one theory which is about magical "pufff" and the other one which requires physical assupmtions which, how to say it, are not elegant: there was a point, not a ball, not a rock, not a sun, but a point with no dimensions; it has an infinite density although finite mass; if it has exploded, it had to be unstable, but if it achieved an infinite density it had to be stable so in the empty universe must have happened something what made a stable thing unstable. So at this point scientists couldn't move on without an act of creation. But it doesn't fit the physics without a God so it cant be right. So there's another option: our universe goes in circles - it goes bang, then at some point it collapses and again it goes bang and so on. Hmm, but it is also not elegant cos it is a perpetuum mobile while every reaction needs an action and it somehow must have started to work. Stephen Hawking decided that we should not bother what was before the big bang cos it couldn't have any meaning for our current universe (just like system reset, everything is lost, you have a fresh system) but it is just an escape from the problem and he admitted it (he might have developed a new theory in last couple of years, I'm not so up-to-date with his current works).

And that is all well and good what you say, but your view has one major flaw: Just because we can't explain something at one point doesn't mean that we automatically must assume that the other, easy way out (God) is the "right" way.

Ok so to the point of this long post: I'm not able convince you that God exists, I'm not able to show you proofs but also noone is able to proove that God doesn't exist and no matter how much you'll try, in any theory, in any thing that happens, there will always be a possibility that God had something to do with it.

So, the people who base their whole lives on a... Possibility ?

How big is the possibility that a chicken had something to do with creating our earth/universum ? Might as well pray to a chicken. I mean, it's possible !

Or let's go further - If you are a believer, do you believe in Evolution ? And let's pretend for a second that there really is a god - How do you know you picked the right religion out of those thousand and thousands floating around on this planet ?

Drako

11-02-2008, 06:43 PM

This is not logic. Proof me wrong that there is a Dragon sitting on the dark side of the moon - What, you can't ?

Just like you said: proove I'm wrong. If you say there's no logic in that, why you keep using that argument?

Yeah well, it is pretty much BS. You seriously are trying to compare someone being hit by a lighting strike, or escaping death by something that we label as luck with someone who sits in "the sky" and watches every step we do ?

You say "luck" but there's no space for "luck" in the scientific universe. As to the bs - tunneling phenomenon is no bs. And I didn't say anything about the guy with the beard sitting in the clouds. If you think that's the kind of "god" we believe in you must have stopped with your religion knowledge in middle ages.

And that is all well and good what you say, but your view has one major flaw: Just because we can't explain something at one point doesn't mean that we automatically must assume that the other, easy way out (God) is the "right" way.

And you assume that it can be explained. I don't assume it can't, because any miracle can be explained at some point and assuming that God made miracles why shouldn't he use physics, which would be also created by Him, to achieve His goals? The question isn't "how" but "why". Still, while I don't assume I'm right, just showing that it isn't impossible, you automatically assume it's wrong while you have no evidence for that.

So, the people who base their whole lives on a... Possibility ?

How big is the possibility that a chicken had something to do with creating our earth/universum ? Might as well pray to a chicken. I mean, it's possible !

Or let's go further - If you are a believer, do you believe in Evolution ? And let's pretend for a second that there really is a god - How do you know you picked the right religion out of those thousand and thousands floating around on this planet ?

If everything would be certain could we call it a faith?

Well, chicken is a physical being thus it couldn't exist while physics haven't. So it is not possible :P Try harder ;)

About picking the right religion: if you call a God the God, Allah, Jahwe or anything else wouldn't He still be a God? I don't think that rite matters here.

golonka

11-02-2008, 07:14 PM

http://onwhoseauthority.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg

EZFEED

11-02-2008, 07:59 PM

Yeah I know. I'm done!
I didn't want to be rude and butt in because you seemed to make some good points but I just wanted to remind you that if you are a Christian we are charged to only push so far and thats it.

God talks to you, he talks to me, things happen and He reveals Himself in mysterious ways to us and we know who we are and where we stand, we were receptive to the call. There is no way you can expect anyone who is not interested and has not been spiritually called to be able to fathom that and rightly so because without any understanding of it, it can be quite a frightful thing.

EZFEED

11-02-2008, 08:00 PM

http://onwhoseauthority.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg

The flying spagetti monster always cracked me up!rofl
Somewhere, forgot exactly where now, someone erected a statue of it!

Redguy

11-02-2008, 10:27 PM

Science does not "fail" at explaining the origins of existance. Science simply does not know "how" (yet). Science has already disproven all kinds of Religions on sooooo many accounts, it's pretty simple if you have a open mind.

How old do you believe that the earth is ? Do you believe in Evolution ? Did Dinosaur and Human co-exist ? Is this all "Science crap" ?

Fact is, ofcourse there will always be people believing in Religion - No matter if Science prooves them wrong or not. Religion offers the easy way out of these questions on "why" we exists. Instead of simply recognizing that we simply do not know, it seems that the truth is too hard for some people. Maybe it's better for a large part of people believing in a man who watches anything they do and fearing to go to hell. If all people were rational and simply looked at the facts as you purpose they do, why are there still so many Christians if the basic fundamental of the Bible are debunked ? (Creationism for example)

Look at all the "9/11 truthers" who still believe that the WTC was blown up by a goverment agency, eventhrough there are tons and tons of material that is debunking their claims. Ignorance is bliss.

So what you're saying is science hasn't tried to prove the origins of existence yet? Because if they are currently "trying" and have not succeed, they are failing. No I'm not a religious nut, I'm not going to call science "the devils work". To me however, it seems a bit ignorant to totally discredit the possibility that a god may exist, when modern science offers so little proof.

Niels

11-02-2008, 10:30 PM

To me however, it seems a bit ignorant to totally discredit the possibility that a god may exist, when modern science offers so little proof.
And religion offers...?

ren0312

11-02-2008, 10:54 PM

http://www.mrwiggleslovesyou.com/comics/rehab477.jpg

nvm...............................................

ren0312

11-02-2008, 11:00 PM

I didn't want to be rude and butt in because you seemed to make some good points but I just wanted to remind you that if you are a Christian we are charged to only push so far and thats it.

God talks to you, he talks to me, things happen and He reveals Himself in mysterious ways to us and we know who we are and where we stand, we were receptive to the call. There is no way you can expect anyone who is not interested and has not been spiritually called to be able to fathom that and rightly so because without any understanding of it, it can be quite a frightful thing.

I am sort of OK with a live and let live mentality, do not insult my religion, and I will not insult your beliefs.

EZFEED

11-03-2008, 12:34 AM

I am sort of OK with a live and let live mentality, do not insult my religion, and I will not insult your beliefs.

Not quite what I meant. Christians do have a commission to spread the word of God but to only do so in a Biblical fashion and that doesn't jive with the live and let live mentality. We are not supposed to just sit and be content in and of ourselves bearing no fruit to share with others, that’s being sort of selfish with the gift that you were bestowed and it does nothing to aid others who would want to obtain that same fulfillment and share in that selfless love. You can insult my religion all you want if that’s something you would care to do but it would be to nil affect. I live this new life and it is greater than me and whatever I could hope for. It is more real to me than this computer and office that I am sitting in, that’s how secure I am in the reality of God. Like I said, things happen in this faith if your heart is right and they are indescribable at best.:)

The method in which a person witnesses (gives testimony) to others can often turn to a sour note when he lets his selfish nature override the biblical method and decides to pursue the matter aggressively. Look how Jesus taught, He went amongst the people (God initiated outreach) and preached the Word and when they ridiculed him and did Him harm He forgave them and left them to their own agendas. You never read of Him chasing people around engaging in arguments over who was right and who was wrong.:roll: He offered freely and those who were receptive and acknowledged His truth partook, he others consciously made their decision and turned their ear. People made their own mind up; they knew the truth in their hearts but made the decision to flip the switch off.

In order for man to be a unique creature he had to have the ability to make decisions in and of himself, the free will to choose right or wrong. If we couldn't choose wrong and make mistakes how would we be any different than any other animal who follows its instinct or a robot for that matter? It wasn't Gods desire to create being that couldn’t reciprocate back to Him but one that could do so out of its own desire and then if it wished make the decision to reject again.

Someone can offer you the word or God will press the yearning upon you, either way God will be the one reaching out to you. You however make the choice whether or not you decide to accept it or reject it. If you decide to turn your ear He respects that decision but it is not what He had planned for you and you could very well miss out on some great things. If you accept get ready for your world to turn upside down! He will reach out to you first and initiate it either Himself or through others (depends on what you are more inclined to respond to) but it's your choice, He wont interfere with your free will to choose.woot

non

11-03-2008, 01:42 AM

EZFED:

Christians do have a commission to spread the word of God but to only do so in a Biblical fashion
Everyone's already heard it, yet still there are 3 yr. olds that have died of disentary boiling in satans faecal matter because they didn't spin 3 circles, face true north and say I accept the Jesus in my heart. Then, there's the question of whether they really meant it if they did get the chance to 'open their hearts to the geezus'.
Total joke. Everything you believe is b***sh*t, and it's not the fault of those who don't believe that you do.

The method in which a person witnesses (gives testimony) to others can often turn to a sour note when he lets his selfish nature override the biblical method and decides to pursue the matter aggressively.
In other words, The Screwtape Letters.

In order for man to be a unique creature he had to have the ability to make decisions in and of himself, the free will to choose right or wrong.
Wow, Lewis and Aquinas, as well. So many excuses for this god pr***.

Someone can offer you the word or God will press the yearning upon you, either way God will be the one reaching out to you.
...or loneliness, abject fear, a completely hopeless desolation or just banal human denial of the probable. woopee.

You however make the choice whether or not you decide to accept it or reject it.
...but, however do I tell if it's God or just the bulb in the lamp blinking out? Schizos read lots of interesting messages in the nightly news(determined by the number and pattern of how the anchor person blinks his eyes during the broadcast).

If you decide to turn your ear He respects that decision but it is not what He had planned for you and you could very well miss out on some great things.
Told you this himself, did he? Guessing there was burning shruberry sans smoke in your back yard...you faithfully investigated and the tete a tete began. Well, atleast you only have to do sh** like this. Building an ark would be...like arduous and sh**.

drako:

You say "luck" but there's no space for "luck" in the scientific universe.
...and you say "scientific universe" like it's areligion. It's not. It's not written in stone. It's answers are not immutable. They do not pretend to be. Good science moves forward to new questions, not permanent answers. Which is more than can be said for the Cathaholic Church.

EZFEED

11-03-2008, 01:56 AM

LOL! Well thats your take on it, nobody has the right to try and change that :)

Atlantic Friend

11-03-2008, 02:04 AM

All the signs are there: religion will die.

A-men ! Thank God ! p-)

Jobu

11-03-2008, 02:09 AM

...The only way for you to avoid the trap of religion would be to not suggest an alternate view...but as human beings, that's what sets us apart from things like toasters. They accept things as-is, and we ask questions.

In one of the only times you'll ever find me disagreeing with 2sheds, I have to chime in here.

Asking questions does not lead us into the religion trap.
Answering some questions does.

If the question is "green dragon" or "no green dragon" we could choose one and have a religion or we could admit that we don't know the answer or even if the question is answerable at all.

We can admit our ignorance and insuffuciencies without giving up on the quest to keep learning. Are we searching for the answer to some ultimate truth? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe there is no ultimate truth.

boet faas

11-03-2008, 04:55 AM

I didn't want to be rude and butt in because you seemed to make some good points but I just wanted to remind you that if you are a Christian we are charged to only push so far and thats it.

God talks to you, he talks to me, things happen and He reveals Himself in mysterious ways to us and we know who we are and where we stand, we were receptive to the call. There is no way you can expect anyone who is not interested and has not been spiritually called to be able to fathom that and rightly so because without any understanding of it, it can be quite a frightful thing.

No offence Ezfeed. I knew it was time to shut up before you entered the frame, was just so annoyed. Anyway no reason to argue with Macs, he only throws your answers back at you in question style yet he has no point to offer himself. You can argue and put forth facts and he somehow seems to miss them completely. I think he feels insulted??

La8pv

11-03-2008, 05:59 AM

LOL! Well thats your take on it, nobody has the right to try and change that :)

That's actually a rational take on it. You can try to challenge him with facts and reason, but a simple LOL shows that you haven't got anything to offer.

My take on the whole issue is that religion in its current form will eventually die as people get educated. You can see clear sign on it from the Nordic countries. We have the highest level of education and the lowest in religiosity. Today a majority of Norwegians are atheist and if we wait another generation we will see that the number of religious people will be down to under 10%.

For religion to die in other parts of the world we have to wait a bir longer. As long as people are deprived of education religion will have a playing field.

USA is a bit different as the level of education is quite high and still religion plays a significant role in their society. The religious right has managed to somehow make it "un American" to be atheist a lot thanks to the cold war and how Communist were seen as "evil atheists." But times are changing even there.

For the future I think that organized religion will almost die out. Some will still be a part of it no matter what. You need only to look at an organization called The Flat Earth Society. Some will always prefer the easy way out and say magic did it or that they can't imagine that the only meaning to life is what we make of it.

ren0312

11-03-2008, 06:05 AM

That's actually a rational take on it. You can try to challenge him with facts and reason, but a simple LOL shows that you haven't got anything to offer.

My take on the whole issue is that religion in its current form will eventually die as people get educated. You can see clear sign on it from the Nordic countries. We have the highest level of education and the lowest in religiosity. Today a majority of Norwegians are atheist and if we wait another generation we will see that the number of religious people will be down to under 10%.

For religion to die in other parts of the world we have to wait a bir longer. As long as people are deprived of education religion will have a playing field.

USA is a bit different as the level of education is quite high and still religion plays a significant role in their society. The religious right has managed to somehow make it "un American" to be atheist a lot thanks to the cold war and how Communist were seen as "evil atheists." But times are changing even there.

For the future I think that organized religion will almost die out. Some will still be a part of it no matter what. You need only to look at an organization called The Flat Earth Society. Some will always prefer the easy way out and say magic did it or that they can't imagine that the only meaning to life is what we make of it.

I think you should try to read Alexis de Toqueville's "Democracy in America".