View Full Version : Hizballah shops for anti-tank missiles in Moscow
[MakkabI]
11-02-2008, 02:32 PM
Hizballah shops for anti-tank missiles in Moscow
A Hizballah mission, which arrived in Moscow Tuesday, Oct. 28, was taken around Russian state of the art anti-tank missile factories, including KBP in the town of Tula southwest of Moscow, DEBKAfile’s exclusive military sources report. The Lebanese visitors were treated to a live fire demonstration of various types of missile. They then ordered 3,000 missiles of different types and returned home Saturday, Nov. 1.
Tehran is footing the bill.
Our sources disclose that the hardware inspected by the Hizballah officers included 9M133 (Nato-coded Spriggan AT-14) which can be launched by helicopter and Kliver, which is an upgraded Kornet-E mounted on vehicles. The Lebanese Shiite terrorist shoppers also placed a large order for RPG-2 rocket-propelled grenades made by Bazalt. In the 2006 Lebanon war, the older RPG-29 used by Hizballah was responsible for most of the hits suffered by Israeli tanks.
Last month, Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert traveled to Moscow to ask Russian leaders to refrain from selling arms to Syria and Iran, countries at war with Israel. Moscow only promised to reconsider weapons sales capable of upsetting the balance of strength in “sensitive regions” and then went right ahead to sign big arms deals with Damascus and Tehran – and now Hizballah.
Sunday, Nov. 2, defense minister Ehud Barak warned Syria that arming Hizballah with new anti-air weapons would force Israel to “consider its position.”
Several weeks ago, DEBKAfile reported that Syria had supplied the Shiite group with anti-air missiles supported by radar stations. They are already deployed on two Lebanese peaks, Mt. Sannine and Jebel Barukh, which Hizballah controls.
Our military sources stress that Barak’s “warning” will not deter Moscow, Damascus or Hizballah who will taken it to mean that Israel is not preparing to act for now.
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5692 (http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5692)
Don't post articles from Debka, never.
Thats should be one of the rules.
Snoshi
11-02-2008, 02:34 PM
Debka with a lot of BS... Like this one
In the 2006 Lebanon war, the older RPG-29 used by Hizballah was responsible for most of the hits suffered by Israeli tanks.
boet faas
11-02-2008, 02:52 PM
Russia has been at war with Israel for decades now. Israel is not stupid, they know who are supplying their enemies and they know who their real enemies are. Hezbollah etc etc are just proxy fronts for Russia. The trouble between Israel and Russia will escalate soon. Watch this space.
The Dane
11-02-2008, 02:57 PM
Debka are no better than Pravda in my opinion. The only thing i read out of Israel is Jerusalem Post..(jpost).
Mr Gently Benevolent
11-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Don't post articles from Debka, never.
Thats should be one of the rules.They were a good source when they first started but now they just make it up as they go along, talk is that all the ex military intel people who staffed DEBKA have moved on and have been replaced third rate hacks.
Afro-European
11-02-2008, 06:35 PM
They were a good source when they first started but now they just make it up as they go along, talk is that all the ex military intel people who staffed DEBKA have moved on and have been replaced third rate hacks.
By who is that "tabloid" site run?
Flamming_Python
11-02-2008, 11:04 PM
Russia has been at war with Israel for decades now. Israel is not stupid, they know who are supplying their enemies and they know who their real enemies are. Hezbollah etc etc are just proxy fronts for Russia. The trouble between Israel and Russia will escalate soon. Watch this space.
Yes, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran... they are all KGB agents plotting against Israel, everyone knows that Russia has nothing better to do than attack a country 1/10000 its size :cantbeli:
boet faas
11-03-2008, 05:06 AM
Yes, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran... they are all KGB agents plotting against Israel, everyone knows that Russia has nothing better to do than attack a country 1/10000 its size :cantbeli:
So then please explain why the russians are so keen on destabilising the region by selling state of the art war material to terrorist groups? Why does Russia always veto UN security councel measures against Iran? Why is Russia selling nuclear technology to Iran? To make a quick buck and then duck? Think again Einstein. The KGB does not exist anymore and we all know Russia has nothing better to do than attack a country 1/10000 its size in Georgia. The middle East, Israel, offers far greater influence oppurtunities for Russia than Georgia. You need to read up some!
Buffalo_soldier
11-03-2008, 05:53 AM
You do realise that Russia has its own interests. If Russia really wanted to **** Israel over, they could do a hell of alot worse. The prospect of attacking Iran wouldn't even be comprehendable if Russia decided to arm them properly.
boet faas
11-03-2008, 06:04 AM
You do realise that Russia has its own interests. If Russia really wanted to **** Israel over, they could do a hell of alot worse. The prospect of attacking Iran wouldn't even be comprehendable if Russia decided to arm them properly.
That is not accurate. Do you know how well Israel is armed? Iran is not in a position to attack Israel even with all of the war material Russia has to offer. Iran's main problem is the fact that they do not possess a nuclear arsenal. Israel do. Russia cannot supply that because they will provoke a **** storm from the West and that is something they cannot afford. Cool temperaments in Diplomatic circles are all that is preventing an all out war between East and West. Russia and Iran will have a gap blown out of their history if they provoke an all out nuclear deal. Russia does not have the capacity to take on the Israelies otherwise they would have by now. Israel is armed to the teeth and the US is there to supply in all the war material they would ever need if the time arose.
Israel will attack Iran if they continue to avade nuclear inspectors, just give them time to exhuast their diplomatic means. Iran wont stand a chance.
Debka are posting a lot of bull****, that true. but sometimes they report something that the mainstream media will post only few weeks later (like the report on Syrian forces on the Lebanese border, they posted it few weeks before anybody else did)
Buffalo_soldier
11-03-2008, 06:32 AM
That is not accurate. Do you know how well Israel is armed? Iran is not in a position to attack Israel even with all of the war material Russia has to offer. Iran's main problem is the fact that they do not possess a nuclear arsenal. Israel do. Russia cannot supply that because they will provoke a **** storm from the West and that is something they cannot afford. Cool temperaments in Diplomatic circles are all that is preventing an all out war between East and West. Russia and Iran will have a gap blown out of their history if they provoke an all out nuclear deal. Russia does not have the capacity to take on the Israelies otherwise they would have by now. Israel is armed to the teeth and the US is there to supply in all the war material they would ever need if the time arose.
Israel will attack Iran if they continue to avade nuclear inspectors, just give them time to exhuast their diplomatic means. Iran wont stand a chance.
whatever you say bub
I stand by my statement: if Russia properly armed Iran, Israel would have no chance of attacking them and being successful.
whatever you say bub
I stand by my statement: if Russia properly armed Iran, Israel would have no chance of attacking them and being successful.
What do you " properly armed Iran"? explain please
boet faas
11-03-2008, 06:52 AM
whatever you say bub
I stand by my statement: if Russia properly armed Iran, Israel would have no chance of attacking them and being successful.
You give the Russians far to much credit. What happened to the Russian economy when they invaded Georgia? It virtually collapsed. Russia were quick to realise their folly and retreated within the time frame negotiated by the French. Russia cannot afford it.
BTW, what is the nature of this super powerful Russian war material that will wipe Israel from the face of the earth? The only Russian war production that has ever been envied by the West was their SAM's and a certain nuclear type submarine which class I cannot remeber. And SA captured their SAM technology in the 80's and this was transferred to the US. I think the West is on par with that type of technology. Whats left? Ah, the sub, yes well I think the West has got that avenue covered as well.
KoTeMoRe
11-03-2008, 07:10 AM
You give the Russians far to much credit. What happened to the Russian economy when they invaded Georgia? It virtually collapsed. Russia were quick to realise their folly and retreated within the time frame negotiated by the French. Russia cannot afford it.
BTW, what is the nature of this super powerful Russian war material that will wipe Israel from the face of the earth? The only Russian war production that has ever been envied by the West was their SAM's and a certain nuclear type submarine which class I cannot remeber. And SA captured their SAM technology in the 80's and this was transferred to the US. I think the West is on par with that type of technology. Whats left? Ah, the sub, yes well I think the West has got that avenue covered as well.
1. It wasn't their economy but their financial market and that wasn't so much different from the overall trend in the West and beyond. Russia's material economy is way healthier, but that's another issue.
2. That is simply backfiring from the specific Russian investor market, being either institutionnal, individual or foreign based. As a lot of investment was performed by foreigners, they pulled their assets out to cover their losses elsewhere (partially) etc etc etc.
3. The georgian "affair" didn't lasted enough to affect the Russian economy (or are you saying the West is simulating a worldwide Krach to punish Russia?) the way you dscribe it!
4. The rest of your rant is uncalled for yet if Russia wanted to equip and train properly the Iranian Armed Forces, that could turn very very ugly with giant mushrooms all over Iran as a conservatory pre-emptive measure! Wich would mean that the Isralis would de facto recognize their conventionnal defeat!
4. The rest of your rant is uncalled for yet if Russia wanted to equip and train properly the Iranian Armed Forces, that could turn very very ugly with giant mushrooms all over Iran as a conservatory pre-emptive measure! Wich would mean that the Isralis would de facto recognize their conventionnal defeat!
Explain how
boet faas
11-03-2008, 07:25 AM
1. It wasn't their economy but their financial market and that wasn't so much different from the overall trend in the West and beyond. Russia's material economy is way healthier, but that's another issue.
2. That is simply backfiring from the specific Russian investor market, being either institutionnal, individual or foreign based. As a lot of investment was performed by foreigners, they pulled their assets out to cover their losses elsewhere (partially) etc etc etc.
3. The georgian "affair" didn't lasted enough to affect the Russian economy (or are you saying the West is simulating a worldwide Krach to punish Russia?) the way you dscribe it!
4. The rest of your rant is uncalled for yet if Russia wanted to equip and train properly the Iranian Armed Forces, that could turn very very ugly with giant mushrooms all over Iran as a conservatory pre-emptive measure! Wich would mean that the Isralis would de facto recognize their conventionnal defeat!
Blah, blah, blah....Why do you suppose my post is uncalled for. You are uncalled for. You try to hide your uninformed rant by using big economic words etc etc. Facts are not registering on the signals beeping in your head. Russia cannot and will not arm Iran with nuclear weapons, that will be the end of Russia and civilization. Iran does not have any nuclear capabilities and is therefore not in position to dictate terms to Israel even if they had all the non-nuclear weapons that Russia can produce in 10 years. On the other hand, Israel does have more than enough nuclear capabilities to take on even Russia if they chose so. Israel is armed to the teeth with American weapons that is in far better nick than what Russia could ever dish out in the next 10 years. Think man, think. When Iran gets to close in producing weapons grade plutonium Israel will strike pre-emptively. And they will strike hard. Israel has never been a country to take lightly when they issue a warning. And they will do so with the backing of the West. Where does that leave Russia?????
KoTeMoRe
11-03-2008, 07:37 AM
Blah, blah, blah....Why do you suppose my post is uncalled for. You are uncalled for. You try to hide your uninformed rant by using big economic words etc etc. Facts are not registering on the signals beeping in your head. Russia cannot and will not arm Iran with nuclear weapons, that will be the end of Russia and civilization. Iran does not have any nuclear capabilities and is therefore not in position to dictate terms to Israel even if they had all the non-nuclear weapons that Russia can produce in 10 years. On the other hand, Israel does have more than enough nuclear capabilities to take on even Russia if they chose so. Israel is armed to the teeth with American weapons that is in far better nick than what Russia could ever dish out in the next 10 years. Think man, think. When Iran gets to close in producing weapons grade plutonium Israel will strike pre-emptively. And they will strike hard. Israel has never been a country to take lightly when they issue a warning. And they will do so with the backing of the West. Where does that leave Russia?????
Pull your head out of your arse! I said...
that could turn very very ugly with giant mushrooms all over Iran as a conservatory pre-emptive measure! Wich would mean that the Israelis would de facto recognize their conventionnal defeat!
1. The mushrooms will be Israeli, made on Iran.
2. They would be a clear sign that Israel will not want to walk the conventionnal path, thus recognising they cannot win or win without a severe bleeding!
3. Israel does not have the vectors to take on Russia, and even its nuclear arsenal is fairly limited...
4. "Israel has western designed arms and thus is stronger...", wow I'm speechless.
5. Taking on Iran with WMD's is a de facto reckoning of conventional defeat (see point 1), and will not be granted by the West. Think it again...It would be the best advocacy for Nuclear proliferation worldwide.
May I reccommend a thorough rehearsal of my previous post, you'd find a lot of answers.
boet faas
11-03-2008, 07:43 AM
We are in essence arguing about the same thing. Israel will strike Iran, point made. Fact is, Russia will not train Iranian soldiers they do that themselves. Russia will arm Iran, but not with nuclear arsenal. If Israel becomes aware of this they will strike conventionally first. Nobody in the world is dumb enough to start a nuclear fallout over a percieved aggression. Israel is capable of taking on any country anytime anywhere in conventional conflict. But even that in today's military technology will be devestating to both parties. Look at Lebanon a few years ago, and that was only 1 month. Emagine a year or more of such type of relentless bombings.
Elemental666
11-03-2008, 07:47 AM
1. The mushrooms will be Israeli, made on Iran.
Do you honestly believe that's even an option, no matter how much weapons Iran will get from the Russians? Seriously man.
We had a far more serious situation than Iran (In my opinion at least) back in 1973 and mushrooms weren't exactly popping all over Egypt and Syria.
KoTeMoRe
11-03-2008, 07:50 AM
Explain how
As for how...give me a budget, I'll hand you a spending list!
Elemental...listen I'm fed up with these opinions. Either Israel is God's army and It cannot be defeated, either the amount of weaponery poured inside Iran and a thorough training of it's armed forces would make you re-think about what option is eligible or not!
Would you assure me that Iran armed to the teeth (with the US army having left the region) and given any pretext to attack Israel will not succeed into forcing some nuclear take offs and strikes?
Boet...Israel is what it is, just not a XXIst century Masada!
Do you honestly believe that's even an option, no matter how much weapons Iran will get from the Russians? Seriously man.
We had a far more serious situation than Iran (In my opinion at least) back in 1973 and mushrooms weren't exactly popping all over Egypt and Syria.
I think Israel will use it nukes only when the country has nothing to lose
Something like " If were going down, you are all going down with us"
Buffalo_soldier
11-03-2008, 07:53 AM
We are in essence arguing about the same thing. Israel will strike Iran, point made. Fact is, Russia will not train Iranian soldiers they do that themselves. Russia will arm Iran, but not with nuclear arsenal. If Israel becomes aware of this they will strike conventionally first. Nobody in the world is dumb enough to start a nuclear fallout over a percieved aggression. Israel is capable of taking on any country anytime anywhere in conventional conflict. But even that in today's military technology will be devestating to both parties. Look at Lebanon a few years ago, and that was only 1 month. Emagine a year or more of such type of relentless bombings.
Israel doesn't have the logistics or economy to continuously bomb Iran for one week, let alone a month. You don't seem to realise the two countries are 1000km away. If Russia arms Iran with s-300 or other sam systems it would make any aerial strikes by Israel prohibitively dangerous.
Think it again...It would be the best advocacy for Nuclear proliferation worldwide. You are genuinely nuts if you believe that. Every nation will be scrambling for nukes if Israel does that.
Elemental666
11-03-2008, 07:53 AM
I think Israel will use it nukes only when the country has nothing to lose
Something like " If were going down, you are all going down with us"
Well, exactly. We're not going down anytime soon, so that was my point :)
Israel doesn't have the logistics or economy to continuously bomb Iran for one week, let alone a month.
Ah, the expert analyst deluxe is back.
KoTeMoRe
11-03-2008, 08:00 AM
Israel doesn't have the logistics or economy to continuously bomb Iran for one week, let alone a month. You don't seem to realise the two countries are 1000km away. If Russia arms Iran with s-300 or other sam systems it would make any aerial strikes by Israel prohibitively dangerous. You are genuinely nuts if you believe that. Every nation will be scrambling for nukes if Israel does that.
That's what I am saying, if Israel takes on Iran pre-emptievely with nuclear war heads it will be the best add-campaign for such destructive means!
But the only problem is..that Israel won't use its nukes on Iran, we are not that stupid you know...
As for how...give me a budget, I'll hand you a spending list!
Iran military budget is already big enough.
You are just talking crap without thinking, seriously..
What can Russia possibly supply Iran with? any war between Israel and Iran will be a Missiles-Air force war
Iranian air force is totally crap, to be honest..
even if Russia supplied Iran with fighter jets -
1. What kind of jets can Russia supply them that will be a match to Israeli F-15's/F-16's?
2. How many of them?
3. Are the Iranian pilots can match the Israeli ones? I doubt it..
Let's say Russia does supply them with fighter jets - It takes years to manufacture them and deliver them to Iran.
it takes years of training.
Let not forget Israel is operating some 350 F-16's and 106 (if I'm not wrong) F-15's
How much time will take Iran to buy enough fighter jets to compete with this arsenal? many, many years
Even if Iran did have a nice arsenal of planes, they'd have to fly over Iraq.. I don't need to remind you who controls (and will keep control for many years) Iraq air space, do I?
Even so, Israel will alone identify Iranian fighter jets and will send some F-15's to greet them
So Israeli-Iranian air confrontation is not even imaginable
What the other option? Missiles? I'm too tired to talk about that **** p-)
Buffalo_soldier
11-03-2008, 08:15 AM
But the only problem is..that Israel won't use its nukes on Iran, we are not that stupid you know...
Some crazy people on this board think otherwise.
Whether its Israel or Iran, neither will use nuclear weapons - or palm them off to third parties. They are strategic weapons to be used as a last resort.
Elemental666
11-03-2008, 08:16 AM
Elemental...listen I'm fed up with these opinions. Either Israel is God's army and It cannot be defeated, either the amount of weaponery poured inside Iran and a thorough training of it's armed forces would make you re-think about what option is eligible or not!
First of all, relax. I asked a simple question. IDF is definetly not God's army, it has quite a few problems that hopefully will be taken care of by the new chief of staff.
I stand by my opinion, nukes are NOT going to be used unless it's the absolute last resort before Israel collapses. Which I don't see happening if Russia gives Iran some new toys.
Would you assure me that Iran armed to the teeth (with the US army having left the region) and given any pretext to attack Israel will not succeed into forcing some nuclear take offs and strikes?
I am sure of it myself, if you want to believe otherwise, I don't mind. I just gave you an example of a much worse scenario Israel was actually in than facing a well armed conventional Iran, and yet our nuclear arsenal wasn't used. So draw your own conclusions.
Hey, missile war is not a joke..besides, how about Hizballah? Syria? Intifada?
I'm just dreaming so I hope you don't mind but missiles are not the only thing Iran has to offer..
Hey, missile war is not a joke..besides, how about Hizballah? Syria? Intifada?
I'm just dreaming so I hope you don't mind but missiles are not the only thing Iran has to offer..
I mean - everyone knows about Iran missiles capability, no point writing about it..
The only way Iran can hit Israel (as for now), is by using missiles (Hezbollah as well, and I don't believe Syria will join the fight)
I mean - everyone knows about Iran missiles capability, no point writing about it..
The only way Iran can hit Israel (as for now), is by using missiles (Hezbollah as well, and I don't believe Syria will join the fight)
I thought there was a war, and Iran and Syria were involved..a war using proxies like HezbAllah.
Buffalo_soldier
11-03-2008, 08:28 AM
Assuming that any Israeli raid in Iran will be successful is the first problem.
I know the chance of Syria joining the party is very very small chance, but sometimes I like to turn on some apocalypse mode in my head, hearing that the Syrians are sending troops to the border with Lebanon, and people said that Israel will attack after the elections in the US take place, I don't know, maybe they are preparing for something..
Bah I'm just getting it out p-)
So then please explain why the russians are so keen on destabilising the region by selling state of the art war material to terrorist groups? Why does Russia always veto UN security councel measures against Iran?
maybe just for making money.. simple.
I think Israel will use it nukes only when the country has nothing to lose
Something like " If were going down, you are all going down with us"
that were Golda Meir's words, if I'm not wrong.
Afro-European
11-03-2008, 09:14 AM
Let's go back to the topic.Is Hezb gonna pull another "summer 2006" ?
Holycrusader
11-03-2008, 09:29 AM
You give the Russians far to much credit. What happened to the Russian economy when they invaded Georgia? It virtually collapsed.
Pretty bold (and stupid) thing to say. People do not understand that Russia economy =/= Moscow stock exchange :)
KoTeMoRe
11-03-2008, 09:35 AM
First of all, relax. I asked a simple question. IDF is definetly not God's army, it has quite a few problems that hopefully will be taken care of by the new chief of staff.
I stand by my opinion, nukes are NOT going to be used unless it's the absolute last resort before Israel collapses. Which I don't see happening if Russia gives Iran some new toys.
I am sure of it myself, if you want to believe otherwise, I don't mind. I just gave you an example of a much worse scenario Israel was actually in than facing a well armed conventional Iran, and yet our nuclear arsenal wasn't used. So draw your own conclusions.
Sorry for the rant, the point being that when dealing in absolutes one must think about... absolutes. I will not verse into syllogisms right now, but that was my entire point. If Iran could pay itself the whole of Rossoborn's catalogue in numbers, with the US having "won" the war on terror (left Iraq) nothing indicates that they would fail so miserably that it would have less coverage on Ytv than another palestinian Kassam raid on Sderot (to put it more lightly).
RoyB: it was just some food for thought to our .za friend. Nothing more.
I don't know if Hizballah is gonna pull another 'summer 2006' but they definitely gonna pull something..
Its just a matter of time till another round begins.
I don't know if Hizballah is gonna pull another 'summer 2006' but they definitely gonna pull something..
Its just a matter of time till another round begins.
Hopefully for the last time.
If its not them its another group, this thing is endless, all we can do is to try our best..
If its not them its another group, this thing is endless, all we can do is to try our best..
Then we should put an end to the place called Lebanon........ p-)
It part of Eretz Yisrael anyway
Afro-European
11-03-2008, 10:37 AM
Hopefully for the last time.
Not if the IDF repeat the same mistakes as they did in 2006.
You guys missed a golden opportunity to finish the Hezb off.
Snoshi
11-03-2008, 10:56 AM
Not if the IDF repeat the same mistakes as they did in 2006.
You guys missed a golden opportunity to finish the Hezb off.
Finish them off? Nope, thats impossible.. But missed the opportunity to severely weaken them, yes. i agree.
Afro-European
11-03-2008, 11:09 AM
Finish them off? Nope, thats impossible.. But missed the opportunity to severely weaken them, yes. i agree.
That's what i meant.Now that Dan Halutz is gone,i think the new IDF leadership won't repeat that mistake.
Then we should put an end to the place called Lebanon........ p-)
It part of Eretz Yisrael anyway
I don't think that putting an end to Lebanon will stop 'the resistant'.(and besides, even tho it you said with the pirate smiley, I think those kind of talks only cause arguments, I don't like it).
Anyways, I don't care about the Big Israel, just let me live in peace.:)
ViaDUKE
11-03-2008, 03:16 PM
Eh.. I still can not understand one little thing. If Israel already have nuke why then Iran (and maybe any other country) can not have it too?
I heard that Israel did not asked anyone building one. So why there's that buzz?
Eh.. I still can not understand one little thing. If Israel already have nuke why then Iran (and maybe any other country) can not have it too?
I heard that Israel did not asked anyone building one. So why there's that buzz?
Iran - support terrorist groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, Terror in Iraq)
Controlled be Muslims fanatics who seek to control the Middle East.
Threatened to wipe another nation off the map.
Israel - Western Democratic country.
For the 1000th time, its probably could have been a lot easier for Iran to get nuke without the all terrorists support, and threatening to wipe out an other country of the face of the earth thing..
KoTeMoRe
11-03-2008, 05:52 PM
Iran - support terrorist groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, Terror in Iraq)
Controlled be Muslims fanatics who seek to control the Middle East.
Threatened to wipe another nation off the map.
Israel - Western Democratic country.
If only it was that easy...:roll:,
TheOpposition
11-03-2008, 06:18 PM
For the 1000th time, its probably could have been a lot easier for Iran to get nuke without the all terrorists support, and threatening to wipe out an other country of the face of the earth thing..
yep...that tends to stain the pot if you will. but i know poor Iran for not being able to vaporize thousands of people based on thier ethnicity.
I must go now and prepare them a fruit basket to show my condolences!rofl
Iran - support terrorist groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, Terror in Iraq)
Controlled be Muslims fanatics who seek to control the Middle East.
Threatened to wipe another nation off the map.
Israel - Western Democratic country.
iran - western style democracy up until 19 august 1953 when the british and the cia decided to destabilize it.
So then please explain why the russians are so keen on destabilising the region by selling state of the art war material to terrorist groups? Why does Russia always veto UN security councel measures against Iran? Why is Russia selling nuclear technology to Iran? To make a quick buck and then duck? Think again Einstein. The KGB does not exist anymore and we all know Russia has nothing better to do than attack a country 1/10000 its size in Georgia. The middle East, Israel, offers far greater influence oppurtunities for Russia than Georgia. You need to read up some!
do us all a favor and tone it down a bit.
the russians benefit from an unstable middle-east in many ways. it keeps the us off balance, it generates arms sales, and so on. but the SINGLE largest benefit to maintaining an unstable middle east is to keep oil prices high.
boet faas
11-04-2008, 01:23 AM
Back to the nuke issue, Israel only opted once to use nukes and that was in the Yom Kippur war when the US declined any military help to Israel when she was surrounded by arabs. When Israel finally decided the end was nigh they pulled out the nukes and the US got the fright of their lives, intervened and sent military aid. Israel subsequently won that war. Case in point, Israel was on the verge of being completely overrun by her enemies before she took the nuke route. Place that into context with current affairs, Israel played their hand at foreign policy when nukes are concerned, with Iran the same. The only weapon Iran has that posses some kind of threat is het intercontinental missiles, but they have an accuracy so variable in nature that they could miss Israel completely as Israel is reletively small.
Back to the issue on Hezbollah. When did the rules of war change so much that when a hated and feared enemy hides like monkeys behind innocent civilians you allow them to live and fight another day. That is BS. If civilians allow militants to hide in their midst they are just as much part of a military target as any. Hitler put that to good use, although he was a maniac. If Israel wants to strike a final blow to hezbollah they must warn the civillians that their participation in aiding the enemy makes them liable to military action. If they disregard, Israel must level the place to the ground. Hezbollah, which has its support mainly from the civillian population would not be able to recover and the civillians might think twice next time.
All ancient wars were fought like this, nobody was spared if an ultimatum was decreed and disregarded. The soldiers as well as thier families paid the price. Wars in history brought the point home. Israel should do the same. That could mean peace for the next 30 years in the middle East.
KoTeMoRe
11-04-2008, 10:00 AM
Back to the nuke issue, Israel only opted once to use nukes and that was in the Yom Kippur war when the US declined any military help to Israel when she was surrounded by arabs. When Israel finally decided the end was nigh they pulled out the nukes and the US got the fright of their lives, intervened and sent military aid. Israel subsequently won that war. Case in point, Israel was on the verge of being completely overrun by her enemies before she took the nuke route. Place that into context with current affairs, Israel played their hand at foreign policy when nukes are concerned, with Iran the same. The only weapon Iran has that posses some kind of threat is het intercontinental missiles, but they have an accuracy so variable in nature that they could miss Israel completely as Israel is reletively small.
Back to the issue on Hezbollah. When did the rules of war change so much that when a hated and feared enemy hides like monkeys behind innocent civilians you allow them to live and fight another day. That is BS. If civilians allow militants to hide in their midst they are just as much part of a military target as any. Hitler put that to good use, although he was a maniac. If Israel wants to strike a final blow to hezbollah they must warn the civillians that their participation in aiding the enemy makes them liable to military action. If they disregard, Israel must level the place to the ground. Hezbollah, which has its support mainly from the civillian population would not be able to recover and the civillians might think twice next time.
All ancient wars were fought like this, nobody was spared if an ultimatum was decreed and disregarded. The soldiers as well as thier families paid the price. Wars in history brought the point home. Israel should do the same. That could mean peace for the next 30 years in the middle East.
Wait what? Try Operation Nickel Grass buddy! You're some nutjob pal.
Frutzel
11-04-2008, 10:21 AM
Blah, blah, blah....Why do you suppose my post is uncalled for. You are uncalled for. You try to hide your uninformed rant by using big economic words etc etc. Facts are not registering on the signals beeping in your head. Russia cannot and will not arm Iran with nuclear weapons, that will be the end of Russia and civilization. Iran does not have any nuclear capabilities and is therefore not in position to dictate terms to Israel even if they had all the non-nuclear weapons that Russia can produce in 10 years. On the other hand, Israel does have more than enough nuclear capabilities to take on even Russia if they chose so. Israel is armed to the teeth with American weapons that is in far better nick than what Russia could ever dish out in the next 10 years. Think man, think. When Iran gets to close in producing weapons grade plutonium Israel will strike pre-emptively. And they will strike hard. Israel has never been a country to take lightly when they issue a warning. And they will do so with the backing of the West. Where does that leave Russia?????
I don't realize why so much people are annoyed about Russian arms sales?Since the weapons are inferior to ze mighty US/Israel hardware.You contradict yourself you know?By your logic there would be no danger from Irans side because they would be wiped out in seconds with the ultimate super weapons you are talking about. Too much steam and very few facts my friend.Let's see how long your stay will be
Iran - support terrorist groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, Terror in Iraq)
Controlled be Muslims fanatics who seek to control the Middle East.
Threatened to wipe another nation off the map.
Israel - Western Democratic country.
not only that,
because of the nature and ideology of his current regim, Iran can be considered as a country that could be not only a threat to israel, but also, to all the other western nations in europe and in north america (the main part of christian world at the same occasion)
this is why Iran is considered as a threat not only by Israel, western leaders are not ignorant of these facts.
Some other nations like China or India also have nukes but that isn't a problem because the Ideologies of their governments are not based on the hate of the western world and the destruction of the infidels and such other things..
it seems so evident that It shouldn't even been explain.
KoTeMoRe
11-04-2008, 12:24 PM
not only that,
because of the nature and ideology of his current regim, Iran can be considered as a country that could be not only a threat to israel, but also, to all the other western nations in europe and in north america (the main part of christian world at the same occasion)
this is why Iran is considered as a threat not only by Israel, western leaders are not ignorant of these facts.
Some other nations like China or India also have nukes but that isn't a problem because the Ideologies of their governments are not based on the hate of the western world and the destruction of the infidels and such other things..
it seems so evident that It shouldn't even been explain.
Say that again? In 30 years time?
Say that again? In 30 years time?
what should I say ? Iran lose his time, too bad for them!
welcome in the new world, were islamic jihad-like regims are the freedom ennemies...
you'll understand that I won't be sad about that.
abe87
11-04-2008, 05:12 PM
not only that,
because of the nature and ideology of his current regim, Iran can be considered as a country that could be not only a threat to israel, but also, to all the other western nations in europe and in north america (the main part of christian world at the same occasion)
this is why Iran is considered as a threat not only by Israel, western leaders are not ignorant of these facts.
Some other nations like China or India also have nukes but that isn't a problem because the Ideologies of their governments are not based on the hate of the western world and the destruction of the infidels and such other things..
it seems so evident that It shouldn't even been explain.
Actually, the only countries in the world that have portrayed Iran as a threat is Israel and the US. By keeping constant pressure on the world, they're trying to convince that Iran is a threat while that claim is bogus.
I've been reading the news a lot lately regarding the "Iran threat" and I'm quite familiar how they're playing the game.
Every country that had nuclear weapons have behaved quite well. Take Soviet for example, did they ever use nuclear, even under sensitive times? No. Pakistan is a nuclear country. There is **** loads of terrorists there and is incredibly destabilized. Did they ever use nuclear? No. What would make you think Iran is a threat to the world then? While it's obvious Israel and Iran hate each other, do you think there will be war? The US would not allow that since that would have catastrophic effects on the US forces in Middle East. I'm sure the leadership in Israel will avoid that happening.
LEGEND
11-04-2008, 07:03 PM
Actually, the only countries in the world that have portrayed Iran as a threat is Israel and the US. By keeping constant pressure on the world, they're trying to convince that Iran is a threat while that claim is bogus.
I've been reading the news a lot lately regarding the "Iran threat" and I'm quite familiar how they're playing the game.
Every country that had nuclear weapons have behaved quite well. Take Soviet for example, did they ever use nuclear, even under sensitive times? No. Pakistan is a nuclear country. There is **** loads of terrorists there and is incredibly destabilized. Did they ever use nuclear? No. What would make you think Iran is a threat to the world then? While it's obvious Israel and Iran hate each other, do you think there will be war? The US would not allow that since that would have catastrophic effects on the US forces in Middle East. I'm sure the leadership in Israel will avoid that happening.
I dont know what you've been watching, must have been the swedish liberal news, but it seems you've missed Iranian leaders promises to actually use the bomb if he gets it...
VEVAK
11-04-2008, 10:35 PM
I dont know what you've been watching, must have been the swedish liberal news, but it seems you've missed Iranian leaders promises to actually use the bomb if he gets it...
:cantbeli:WOW.
What have you been watching ? Propaganda Lies Channel ?
abe87
11-05-2008, 06:07 AM
I dont know what you've been watching, must have been the swedish liberal news, but it seems you've missed Iranian leaders promises to actually use the bomb if he gets it...
Actually, it's the first time I've heard of it. Otherwise I'd be able to read this on "Dagens nyheter" or "Svenska Dagbladet" or let alone CNN or BBC.
LEGEND
11-05-2008, 10:38 AM
Actually, it's the first time I've heard of it. Otherwise I'd be able to read this on "Dagens nyheter" or "Svenska Dagbladet" or let alone CNN or BBC.
If he Iran doesn't threaten Sweeden, doesn't mean their threats towards other nations can be dismissed. Bet you wouldn't be casually dissmissing Putins threats if he threatened to nuke Sweeden.
abe87
11-05-2008, 01:51 PM
If he Iran doesn't threaten Sweeden, doesn't mean their threats towards other nations can be dismissed. Bet you wouldn't be casually dissmissing Putins threats if he threatened to nuke Sweeden.
What threat? US, Iran and Israel is only threatening each other. Have you read where Iran is threatening any country in Europe for example? I'm not trying to take the side of anyone, neither Israel, Iran or USA but please... This is a game that even a newborn baby can see. Israel, Iran and the US is trying to extend their influence and some people are standing in the way for respective country(US and Israel are allies in this case though:P).
Don't turn a blind eye to news my dear.
LEGEND
11-05-2008, 02:10 PM
Actually, the only countries in the world that have portrayed Iran as a threat is Israel and the US. By keeping constant pressure on the world, they're trying to convince that Iran is a threat while that claim is bogus.
These are your words, you are saying the iran threat is bogus. If it is not a threat to you or your country personally does not make threats to nuke another country bogus. get your head out of the sand.
AL-Khalid
11-05-2008, 02:12 PM
Pretty bold statement about wetern style democracy. Israel is a jewish state for jews only, so cut the democracy crap plz.
abe87
11-05-2008, 02:14 PM
These are your words, you are saying the iran threat is bogus. If it is not a threat to you or your country personally does not make threats to nuke another country bogus. get your head out of the sand.
It is not a threat to the world. Iran is a threat to the US and Israel influence in the Middle East because Iran is also trying to extend their influence. You can simply say they are both clashing together where the the US are moving more East while Iran is moving West. That is why you read that Iran is a threat to the world.
You know why? Because any possible war in the future and you got the job done! You've convinced the majority of the people that Iran is a threat.
NimDod
11-05-2008, 02:23 PM
Pretty bold statement about wetern style democracy. Israel is a jewish state for jews only, so cut the democracy crap plz.
Israel's arabs are the only arabs in the middle east that can vote in a free election, can are do serv as representatives in the parlament and the goverment.
that's democracy and it might get to where ever you crawled out of - in 50 years or so...
LEGEND
11-05-2008, 02:24 PM
It is not a threat to the world. Iran is a threat to the US and Israel influence in the Middle East because Iran is also trying to extend their influence. You can simply say they are both clashing together where the the US are moving more East while Iran is moving West. That is why you read that Iran is a threat to the world.
You know why? Because any possible war in the future and you got the job done! You've convinced the majority of the people that Iran is a threat.
Its a pointless discussion with you. President of Iran said he wants to wipe israel off the map, yet you are claiming the threat is bogus. There is no need to convince any sane person besides you that his threats are exactly that, threats to existence of another country. So while you can sit back in Sweden and theorize about world order and what exactly ahmanedjad meant by saying "i will wipe off them off the map" and that he will use the bomb when he gets it, Israel and US will do whatever is necessary to neutralize the threat.
abe87
11-05-2008, 02:31 PM
Its a pointless discussion with you. President of Iran said he wants to wipe israel off the map, yet you are claiming the threat is bogus. There is no need to convince any sane person besides you that his threats are exactly that, threats to existence of another country. So while you can sit back in Sweden and theorize about world order and what exactly ahmanedjad meant by saying "i will wipe off them off the map" and that he will use the bomb when he gets it, Israel and US will do whatever is necessary to neutralize the threat.
It's not pointless to discuss with me. I'm just telling you to have a little self-critisism when reading the newspaper because there is a lot pointing that US and Israel are trying to create an opinion in case of an attack on Iran.
I suggest you to watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ so that you can see that Iran did not threat Israel to wipe it off the map. Now, I don't know Persian but those who quote Iran's president 'exactly' he threatened to remove the Zionist Regime in Israel. There's the difference and this very mistranslation is used to Israel's favor.
Iran and Israel are a threat to each other, not the world. There's the difference.
Edit: Between, link me the site where Iran has threatened to use Nuclear Bomb on Israel.
Xaito
11-05-2008, 02:33 PM
These are your words, you are saying the iran threat is bogus. If it is not a threat to you or your country personally does not make threats to nuke another country bogus. get your head out of the sand.
A nuclear attack no matter who the target is, is a threat to everybody - period.
And I hope that there aren't many (if any) here who dismiss a threat as bogus just because they don't mind as long as it hits somebody else.
As I see it, the main reason for doubts is the questionable credibility of the WMD accusations - it's basically Iraq all over again (scaremongering and hysteria) and Iraq didn't have WMD's as was found out later.
Its a pointless discussion with you. President of Iran said he wants to wipe israel off the map, yet you are claiming the threat is bogus.
The President of Iran is a fool and says lot's of BS.
But if Iran is attacked because of that then people on all sides will suffer just because of stupid talk of one man.
assuming he doesn't have WMD's he can bark all he wants - he knows if he does something too stupid he's going to get it.
Pretty bold statement about wetern style democracy. Israel is a jewish state for jews only, so cut the democracy crap plz.
Israeli Arabs are allowed to vote.
We got Israeli Arabs in the government, we got them in the Knesset, they got their own parties.
This is democracy.
Hazard1024
11-05-2008, 02:45 PM
So then please explain why the russians are so keen on destabilising the region by selling state of the art war material to terrorist groups? Why does Russia always veto UN security councel measures against Iran? Why is Russia selling nuclear technology to Iran? To make a quick buck and then duck? Think again Einstein. The KGB does not exist anymore and we all know Russia has nothing better to do than attack a country 1/10000 its size in Georgia. The middle East, Israel, offers far greater influence oppurtunities for Russia than Georgia. You need to read up some!
It's Politics, son!
Israel sells weapons to the terrorist regime in Georgia, Russia sells ATGMs or the new awesome RPG-28 to Syria or some such state...
There is nothing wrong with Russia wanting more influence(the same goes for any country) - all countries want to be as influential as possible. The tricky part is not getting killed in the process.
"When everyone is dead, the Great Game is over". R. Kipling.
I'm sorry to go to that direction but what makes Georgia a terrorist regime?
Mr.Flint
11-05-2008, 02:48 PM
I'm sorry to go to that direction but what makes Georgia a terrorist regime?
x2
as well as what relevance does it has, since Russia been selling weapons long before Georgia got anything from Israel.
Hazard1024
11-05-2008, 02:54 PM
I'm sorry to go to that direction but what makes Georgia a terrorist regime?
To put it simple: UN mandate breach.
as well as what relevance does it has, since Russia been selling weapons long before Georgia got anything from Israel.
Cmon, Saka and the gang are just an example... Israel suplies weapons(first grade weapons!) to quite a few countries that are strongly oposed to Russia.
Snoshi
11-05-2008, 03:35 PM
To put it simple: UN mandate breach.
Thats makes a country "terrorist" lol
Cmon, Saka and the gang are just an example... Israel suplies weapons(first grade weapons!) to quite a few countries that are strongly oposed to Russia.
Like which onces?
KoTeMoRe
11-05-2008, 05:38 PM
Thats makes a country "terrorist" lol
Like which onces?
Sending a couple of Grad's rockets to a heavily concentrated urban area...looks a lot like Sderot!
VEVAK
11-05-2008, 06:26 PM
ahmanedjad meant by saying "i will wipe off them off the map" and that he will use the bomb when he gets it, Israel and US will do whatever is necessary to neutralize the threat.
1. Ahmadinejad NEVER said "I" Will ................
2. NO IRANIAN LEADER (0, ZERO) has ever said they will use an atomic bomb against Israel or US. First of all, Iranian leaders dont even say they want the bomb, let alone saying they want to nuke another country. Please find evidence to support your "claims"...
I am sorry if I sound offensive, but you have NO clue what your talking about...
Snoshi
11-06-2008, 12:42 AM
Sending a couple of Grad's rockets to a heavily concentrated urban area...looks a lot like Sderot!
Its called war.. If your enemy concentrated hes forces in the town then town transforms in to the military location.
Hazard1024
11-06-2008, 03:05 AM
Thats makes a country "terrorist" lol
The way Saka did it - 100% yes.
Like which onces?
Plenty. Like Poland etc.
The way Saka did it - 100% yes.
Plenty. Like Poland etc.
Than give some examples of what made Georgia a terrorist regime before the war against Russia..
Come on, is Poland a terrorists supportive country?
Snoshi
11-06-2008, 07:44 AM
The way Saka did it - 100% yes.
I am sorry, but he did like any other country with same type of equipment would have done.. Its called war.. Russia did the same in Checnhhya..
Plenty. Like Poland etc.
You say "plenty" and then you name Poland.. A member of NATO and EU.. Yeah.. :roll:
Lokos
11-06-2008, 10:23 AM
Its called war.. If your enemy concentrated hes forces in the town then town transforms in to the military location.
Come again, Snoshi? Perhaps I've taken this statement out of context - but the above is rubbish.
Where did you learn this?
I am sorry, but he did like any other country with same type of equipment would have done.. Its called war.. Russia did the same in Checnhhya..
And the Palestinians/Hizbullah did the same in Israel.
What?
Going by this logic, Israel had military assets in these general areas. The Arab organizations in question only had area weapons available. Is this not entirely legitimate, according to you? Opportunity met necessity, after all...
L.
So in a war, you shouldn't engage enemy forces, because its in some town?
Lokos
11-06-2008, 10:39 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Absolutely.
Jesus Christ.
An entire town does not become a target simply because it plays host to belligerent forces. Did I not mention that this line of logic gives Hizbullah tactics complete legitimacy? What's wrong with unguided missiles being fired into Israeli townships, considering the fact that the military forces therein make the whole town a viable target, apparently?
Let me put this simply, so you may comprehend it in its entirety: Enemy forces in a built up area are viable targets. The built up area is not a viable target.
L.
Snoshi
11-06-2008, 11:15 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Absolutely.
Jesus Christ.
An entire town does not become a target simply because it plays host to belligerent forces. Did I not mention that this line of logic gives Hizbullah tactics complete legitimacy? What's wrong with unguided missiles being fired into Israeli townships, considering the fact that the military forces therein make the whole town a viable target, apparently?
Let me put this simply, so you may comprehend it in its entirety: Enemy forces in a built up area are viable targets. The built up area is not a viable target.
L.
Agree with you.. But again.. As you saw.. "Destruction" of Tskhinvali was BS and there are no proof that Georgian intentionally shelled civilians..
Again, Lokos what happened in Chechnya in 1994? Both sides had their forces inside of urban areas and other forces were shelling towns with Grads and unguided munitions.
Pretty bold statement about wetern style democracy. Israel is a jewish state for jews only, so cut the democracy crap plz.
Israel is an absolute democracy for all his loyal citizens, Jews, Muslims and Christians..
and for all the traitors it could also be a real nightmare :)
Lokos
11-06-2008, 01:49 PM
Again, Lokos what happened in Chechnya in 1994? Both sides had their forces inside of urban areas and other forces were shelling towns with Grads and unguided munitions.
You seem to be under the impression that this has something to do with what I'm saying... Why? Did I make any reference to Chechnya? Did I imply that Chechnya was an exception to the rule?
As you saw.. "Destruction" of Tskhinvali was BS and there are no proof that Georgian intentionally shelled civilians..
And Israeli towns weren't 'destroyed' by Hizbullah missiles. It's still an example of a grossly negligent attack against mostly civilian populations. You can't justify Georgian tactics and then bemoan Hizbullah's. If attacking civilian targets is acceptable, it's acceptable to all. If it's not acceptable, it's acceptable to none. Russia, Israel, the United States, Hizbullah, Hamas... all included.
As for your 'no proof' comment, I should think the vast amount of damage done to civilian structures in Tshkinvali constitutes some proof. No? There's no proof that the Russians intentionally shelled civilians in Grozny, in that case. Or that Hizbullah was launching missiles against Israeli civilians, either... After all, they could have been targeting what they thought were military installations/forces. It just depends on how disingenuous you want to get, before cutting down the double standards at the knees...
L.
LEB101
11-06-2008, 01:52 PM
this is a load of bull hezbollah dont go to russia iran does for them .
Hazard1024
11-06-2008, 02:46 PM
I am sorry, but he did like any other country with same type of equipment would have done.. Its called war.. Russia did the same in Checnhhya..
Russia atacked another countries peacekeepers in Chechnya? Please expand on that.
You say "plenty" and then you name Poland.. A member of NATO and EU.. Yeah.. :roll:
You dont seem to follow the logic.
Iran, Syria etc. - oposed to Israel. They tech up - bad for Israel.
Poland, The Baltic Reich, Georgia etc. - oposed to Russia. They tech up - bad for Russia.
That simple.
And I dont see how Poland being a member of EU, NATO and a local bridge club changes anything.
boet faas
11-09-2008, 11:43 AM
Wait what? Try Operation Nickel Grass buddy! You're some nutjob pal.
Try reading my thread before you go off skidmarks. The US initially did not provide any support for Israel until they decided it was time to use nukes. Then operation nickel grass was launched, you uninformed moron.
KoTeMoRe
11-09-2008, 11:48 AM
Try reading my thread before you go off skidmarks. The US initially did not provide any support for Israel until they decided it was time to use nukes. Then operation nickel grass was launched, you uninformed moron.
Not really the US was ressuplying from day 1 of the conflict.
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