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View Full Version : my (SOG's) final, VERY SURPRISING findings in iraq



SOG
06-14-2004, 08:08 AM
1st off i did this as fairly and as non biased as i could. i witch hunted all and made a list. in making that list i have witch hunted those reponsible in the US, but i am too tired to find who and what in the other countries. if you would like to find those in other countries who personally had a hand in this, do so. basically, i kept finding clues and contradictions to current day affairs, which finally led me here.

why gulf war?
i had to keep going back to a certain point so i could find a base of begingings. this involves iraq, bush senior and supposed cia meddling.

one problem of MANY was kuwait was sideways drilling into iraqs oil:

Another Kuwaiti field - Ratqa - has been the subject of controversy. Once thought to be an independent reservoir, Ratqa is actually a southern extension of Iraq's super-giant Rumaila field. During the weeks preceding Iraq's August 1990 invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had accused Kuwait of stealing billions of dollars worth of Rumaila oil, and had refused to negotiate a sharing or joint development arrangement for Ratqa and southern Rumaila. After the Gulf War of 1991, a United Nations survey team made a demarcation of the border between Iraq and Kuwait, and this demarcation put all 11 of the existing wells at Ratqa within Kuwaiti territory. Despite this, in September 2000, Iraq renewed accusations it has made previously that Kuwait was "stealing" its oil. Iraq claimed that Kuwait was doing this through horizontal drilling on fields straddling the border between the two countries, and that Iraq was losing $3 billion per year worth of oil. Kuwait denied the charges. Kuwait produces around 40,000 bbl/d from Ratqa.

saddam accused kuwait of not only stealing billions, but also considered kuwait to be part of iraq since he considered kuwaits status to only be so because kuwait was a british protectorate from 1899-1961. besides many border disputes the oil dispute was icing on the cake. i believe saddam was threatning the arab immarites/opec/kuwait oil deals and basically that was a driving point for gw1.

now to this point saddam was still a allie of the US and had been for many years. the interesting thing is, we suddenly demonized saddam for the same things he was simply doing before. now saddam says bush and the cia were fine with him attacking kuwait. i have no hard evidence of this so i have discarded it. but the fact that we suddenly turned on saddam, tells me he was being used when the accusations leveled at him were nothing new and our oil was at stake in kuwait. after all, if we were friends with saddam to this point, and he had so much oil, why spoil that relationship? thats a damn fine deal in a very secular country in the mid east concerning the suppression of radical religion and tolerance of others. this almost leads me to believe saddam was misled somewhat, but hes such a asshole, i dont want to think he has ever done anything good or is telling the truth.

starting the gulf war:

In 1990 Iraq revived a long-standing territorial dispute with Kuwait, its ally during the war with Iran, claiming that overproduction of petroleum by Kuwait was injuring Iraq’s economy by depressing the price of crude oil.

after this the UN imposed sanctions right away against iraq and gave them a deadline to leave kuwait. we all know what happened after. gw1.

post gulf war sanctions:

The Security Council laid out strict demands on Iraq for lifting the sanctions, including destruction of its chemical and biological weapons, cessation of nuclear weapons programs, and acceptance of international inspections to ensure that these conditions were met.

now thats odd that the UN wanted destruction of wmd, post gulf war, not much was found nor did iraq comply, and countries in the UN highly doubted the US reports of wmd in iraq in gw2.

now my question is, if the UN listed it as a DEMAND for iraq to meet to lift sanctions earlier, and there was none or hardly any wmd, then the sanctions would remain in place due to the wmd sanction being non fulfilled.

this i believe leads to evidence claims that the UN sanctions imposed in 1990 and the ones made horribly stricter in 1996 with the food for oil program, were totally unfair for iraq to meet?

now heres the ****ter. ALL the countries in the security council that pushed the wmd sanction were also the same countries INCLUDING the US that attacked bush junior for starting a war on such a lie. so what i see, is many countries including the US from 1990 till gw2 supporting untrue and unfair sanctions against iraq, and then accusing bush jr for going in to look for the very sanctions that were raping iraq under, with the authority of the UN.

what i am begining to see, is a lot of crooks in the UN from ALL countries not wanting bush jr to uncover the truth? in a multi media blitz from ALL countries, we then witnessed them harp on bush jr for looking for wmd which the UN unfairly used to subject iraq under, and, steal its oil?

gulf war one ended in march 91 i believe? a simple fact i was trying to verify.

Bill Clinton was elected president of the United States in 1992 and reelected in 1996. another fact i needed to verify in conjunction with bush senior. the interesting thing i found in this, is that bush pushed for these so far "retarded sanctions" in 1990-91 in the UN and clinton followed them through and pushed for the food for oil program through the UN. i basically was simply looking for who was involved and was surprised to find both republicans and democrats were involved in what appears to be impossible to meet sanctions enforced through the UN with other countries agreeing right along side of us. Deuterium awhile ago posted one hell of a list detailing democrats supporting the war, iraq as a threat, and that iraq was still needing to be dealt with. i didnt judge this biasly, i just couldnt believe both sides made similar comments. they were in agreeance, until bush, decided to push.

in this line of thinking i came to believe that there is a general consensus in politics of most matters with deviance on simple "campaign social issues" followed by pointing fingers at eachother which is the political thiing to do. in this case, alot of democrats and republicans seemed to think the same thing about iraq, but party time squabbling convulted the US citizens sight of what thier politicians believed. i am also convinced that the heavy and unfair sanctions imposed by both ruling parties in the US and countries world wide via the UN have all seemingly villianized bush for uncovering or rather undoing what they imposed.

i believe sanctions in iraq were wrong based on quite alot of premises including what i outlined above about wmd. The US stance in oil for food:
1996 Madeleine Albright, who was then the U.S. ambassador to the UN, was asked by 60 Minutes correspondent Lesley Stahl, in reference to years of U.S.-led economic sanctions against Iraq,
We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
To which Ambassador Albright responded, I think that is a very hard choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth it.
The following January Albright was confirmed by the U.S. Senate as President Clinton’s secretary of state. In her opening statement to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which was considering her appointment, she said, We will insist on maintaining tough U.N. sanctions against Iraq unless and until that regime complies with relevant Security Council resolutions.

i will add that a non biased report of sanctions effects placed mortality at:
In 1999 Richard Garfield, a professor of clinical international nursing at Columbia University, put the likely mortality figure at 227,000 for children under 5 from August 1991 to 1998, most of them directly or indirectly attributable to the sanctions. but, the fact remains.

so the interviewer was a bit biased with stats, but albrieght did not balk, even though later she states what she said was horribly wrong, after the fact when everything crumbled......

Sanctions did not effect saddam?:
Denis Halliday. He was co-ordinator of humanitarian relief to Iraq and Assistant Secretary-General of the United Nations, one of the top most officials. He resigned in 1998, after 34 years with the UN. As John Pilger comments, "His was the first public expression of an unprecedented rebellion within the UN bureaucracy. "I am resigning, [as Assistant Secretary-General of the United Nations]" he [Denis Halliday] wrote, "because the policy of economic sanctions is totally bankrupt. We are in the process of destroying an entire society. It is as simple and terrifying as that ... Five thousand children are dying every month ... I don't want to administer a programme that results in figures like these."
When I first met Halliday, I was struck by the care with which he chose uncompromising words. "I had been instructed," he said, "to implement a policy that satisfies the definition of genocide: a deliberate policy that has effectively killed well over a million individuals, children and adults. We all know that the regime, Saddam Hussein, is not paying the price for economic sanctions; on the contrary, he has been strengthened by them. It is the little people who are losing their children or their parents for lack of untreated water. What is clear is that the Security Council is now out of control, for its actions here undermine its own Charter, and the Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention. History will slaughter those responsible."

oil for food:
Proceeds from such oil sales are banked in New York…. Thirty-four percent is skimmed off for disbursement to outside parties with claims on Iraq, such as the Kuwaitis, as well as to meet the costs of the UN effort in Iraq. A further thirteen percent goes to meet the needs of the Kurdish autonomous area in the north.

so the iraqis with the food for oil program in 96 are now selling oil to relieve them and strengthen thier economy? no.:
With the remaining limited amount of money the Iraqi government could order “food, medicine, medical equipment, infrastructure equipment to repair water and sanitation” and other things. But — and here’s the rub — the U.S. government could veto or delay any items ordered.

As Joy Gordon reported in the November 2001 Harper’s,
The United States has fought aggressively throughout the last decade to purposefully minimize the humanitarian goods that enter the country…. Since August 1991 the United States has blocked most purchases of materials necessary for Iraq to generate electricity, as well as equipment for radio, telephone, and other communications. Often restrictions have hinged on the withholding of a single essential element, rendering many approved items useless. For example, Iraq was allowed to purchase a sewage treatment plant but was blocked from buying the generator necessary to run it; this in a country that has been pouring 300,000 tons of raw sewage daily into its rivers.

remember the 1st thing US troops did in restoration projects? clearing canals, sewers, setting up clean water? of course not, it was minutely reported.
From the Commanding Officer at MWSS-171 to his Marines:
1. ... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700
tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.
2. ... the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to
Iraq's children.
3. ... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000
kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of
farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and
women.
4. ... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and
over two-thirds of the potable water production.

among a great list of other things, some fullfilled, some not exact.

bush after the invasion in 2003 called for sanctions to be lifted. france soon agreed a week later and asked also they be lifted

now the interesting thing i see is pre gw2, all the countries voicing thier opinion against the war were the heaviest "oil for food" in iraq, the three who the media declared opposed us, france, germany russia, and the one the media covered at home, the US ourselves, and heavy shots at britain and blair. what is interesting is that these were the heaviest oil for food countries, all accused bush of going in for what they themselves imposed on iraq, including his own father, and all our medias did a hell of a job whipping up everyone in a frenzy against each other to miss simple pre war facts.

end results i see:
1. iraq is no longer under this murderous sanction imposed by the power houses of the UN including the lead power, the US itself.

2. bush jr, blair and allies, were attacked harshly, mostly from within the "oil for food" leaders, outside critiscm was minor compared to the heavies.

3. after investigating the US's personal hand in this, not only is the clinton administration guilty but, bush senior is, and it is now my contention, he purposefully let saddam hole himself up so they could further sanctions imposed just before gw1 by the security council. both parties knew full well some of the sanctions were impossible to meet and thus wouldnt be lifted as detailed above. and they alone carry the majority of power and influence in imposing further sanctions, which they did later.

4. bush jr pissed off the part of america who had put this into action, and the allies who supported it.

5. the public was duped into mockery of bush and allies by the media in all countries, hiding simple facts that in turn condemned all countries.

6. im not saying bush jr is a sweetheart, in fact as witnessed in other threads, i used to believed this was done for more oil for america for future stability and, freedom as a side quest for iraq. simple facts have made me see otherwise. i think he is still pimping contracts and somewhat of a ass politician, but now, seeing what i see, things arent so "conspiratal" or anti bush. i still do not see why he pined wmd so much, the only thing i can think of was to have a base of support within the US because from the looks of it, the opposition was tremendous and he needed something to at least get in the door with and from 911, it got him the power.

7. i do not know why bush jr did this, why he disrupted his fathers work so, i cannot fathom intentions as to why he disrupted something so criminal enforced by the power houses of the UN including the US, which in turn benefited the countries. i am now in near fear, he may be a decent guy, and i am no longer labeling him as just another politician id shoot in the face, but have elevated him to "questionable". of course hes going to give his buddies money, spoils of war etc, but dare i say...... it was a just cause over the researched deadly and unfair UN sanctions? that is my current stance.

8. i am reeling in saying, bush may have just actually liberated iraq pending the future. i still do not know what for, i daresay for good reasons, but i just cant say that yet, as i am wary of future events which may form elsewhere. i am also thoroughly confused as to how he upset his dads work so greatly. prodgical son?

09. i used to here people bitch non stop about sanctions and how bad they are, now that the santions are lifted, i just here how bad the person is who lifted them. again, i do not blame any one country, i blame officials in all power UN countries in the past for making this happen including the saudis which actually koined the gw1 coalition, and of course the US, who is the biggest on the block to do so and the biggest problem of all, the media, which incited everyone to go ballistic on eachother with a simply amaizing disinformation campaign. i have been warned by people in the past aboutthe media, i did not think they were anything like this.

10. i would like to thank Deuterium for making the comment that this war was "TO FREE IRAQ PERIOD" quite a while ago! that statement confused me greatly as to how one in the know, could make a statement which i thought was okay, but was not the main reason for the war. Deuterium's statement has been cause for thought since then, and i have thought about it until finding answers.

11. and during the course of research i found maggy thatcher was a stand up gal, and she stated the 1st gulf war should have lasted longer, as to remove saddam. some brits, some french, some russians, some germans and some americans had good opinions and were on the right track, all of them drowned by our media.

what i have have found surprises me on many levels, and has only left me with questions i cannot answer except through time. the old corruption and subduing of iraq made sense in a corrupt way, i can make no sense of current day intentions as they seem good, and i do not associate good with poltics. thank you for your time.

2Sheds_Jackson
06-14-2004, 11:06 AM
Your post is kind of hard to read...I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. I think you're saying that you've changed your opinion about the reasons for the Iraq invasion?

So I have to ask- if you had so little knowledge about the background of the war, how could you argue either pro or con? When you say;


gulf war one ended in march 91 i believe? a simple fact i was trying to verify

...this is an extremely basic and key component of the Iraq story. As anybody interested in the war should know, GW1 did not "end" - hostilities were halted under a cease fire agreement (UN Security Council Resolution 687, dated 3APR91) - the conditions of which were that Saddam allow WMD inspections (which of course he did not to the extent specified in the ceasefire). So GW1 was not ended - we simply came to an agreement that if Saddam would agree to X, Y, and Z, that we would stop shooting.

The cross drilling, the cease-fire, Saddam (repeatedly) violating 687, the oil-for-food program run by the UN...I'm just curious as to how anybody could have argued for or against GW2 without knowing this stuff? What could you have based your opinions on?

Personally, I have always believed that there was something illegal going on between Iraq and France/Germany/Russia, while Iraq was under UN sanctions. For the life of me, I could not imagine why else these nations, who, at the Security Council, have always solidly towed the line & supported the US position, would suddenly throw up a huge roadblock when it came to putting troops on the ground.

They voted on the conditions of 687, which Saddam routinely violated
They voted to impose sanctions.
They voted to created deadlines and inspection schemes
Then they would not put any "teeth" in the enforcement, so it was all meaningless

Why? I believe it was because somehow, they were profiting from the status-quo. Money was being made. And they were willing to allow the Iraqi people to continue to suffer under Saddam, and allow Saddam to thumb his nose at the UN as long as they were able to line their pockets.

Of course, this data is only now coming to light. Documents recovered in Iraq have begun to tell the story & the UN oil-for-food scandal is heating up. I guess we'll eventually find out.

>BTW, I'm not trying to bash France/Germany/Russia etc...it's water under the bridge at this point. I just found their behavior, especially France lying to our Secretary of State, very odd...as if they themselves suddenly had something at stake in Iraq< Just my opinion...

SOG
06-14-2004, 12:30 PM
Your post is kind of hard to read...I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. I think you're saying that you've changed your opinion about the reasons for the Iraq invasion?

So I have to ask- if you had so little knowledge about the background of the war, how could you argue either pro or con? When you say;

[quote]gulf war one ended in march 91 i believe? a simple fact i was trying to verify

my opinions are somewhat the same, but where they are on priority has greatly shifted. all the causes are still there like oil and freedom and wmd, just the reasons behind them have changed and thier priority in order of which i thought they were important.

as for the end gulf war date, i know a great deal about whats publicly available about the gulf war and have watched and read with incredible interest however i am horrible with dates and cannot remember when bush senior declared over exact day wise, aka the real deal. im well aware of the cleanups, follow ups etc and after actions, no fly zones, border zones etc why kurds survived and on and on. the one thing i didnt have a grasp on was why gw1 started. so many this and that and conspiracy and oil theories it wa sa bit of a frucas that i didnt bother with for a while.

2Sheds_Jackson
06-14-2004, 12:48 PM
OK fair enough - just want to be sure you understood that GW1 never "ended"...so if you're looking for a date for the end of the war, you won't find one.

The "shooting" phase of the war ended with resolution 687 on 3 April 1991. In order for Saddam to save his neck, he accepted the terms of the cease fire.

In so doing, also he had to agree to the terms of all previous UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq / Kuwait; (660 (1990), 661 (1990), 662 (1990), 664 (1990), 665 (1990), 666 (1990), 667 (1990), 669 (1990), 670 (1990), 674 (1990), 677 (1990), and 678 (1990).

He also had to agree to the terms of 687 which included disclosing and destroying all WMD, prohibited delivery systems, etc etc.

This is key. The US believed it was justified in its' action against Iraq, because in reality, GW1 never ended, and Saddam was violating the conditions of the cease fire. Some other nations (whom I suspect were profiting from the status quo) were stonewalling, and treating GW2 as an entirely new situation, as if it had no connection with the previous war.

So technically there is no GW1 & GW2 - these are only terms we use for convenience sake. There is only one Iraq conflict, which was interrupted for a time when we tried to "give peace a chance". Unfortunately, Saddam believed he could get around the rules and treat the UN like a fool. You can fool some of the people some of the time....

BlackRain
06-14-2004, 12:50 PM
Oil for Food...
Proceeds from such oil sales are banked in New York

The U.N. treasurer's office still controls the Oil-for-Food bank accounts, held in the French bank, BNP Paribas.

As of 2001, one of the largest shareholders in BNP was Iraqi-born Nadhmi Auchi, among Britain’s richest citizens. In the 1980’s Auchi had brokered business deals for Saddam; last year he was convicted in France of illicit profiteering as part of the huge Elf oil scandal. The UN says the Oil-for-Food contract was awarded to BNP on a strictly competitive basis.

The U.N. has refused to disclose BNP statements, or the amount of interest paid on those balances of billions. Even such directly concerned parties as the Kurdish regional authorities of northern Iraq — entitled to 13 percent of the proceeds of Saddam's Oil-for-Food sales — who for years have been requesting a look at the books, have received no details.

Further Reading on the U.N.'s Oil-For0-Fraud Scheme: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/rosett200403212155.asp

SOG
06-14-2004, 01:08 PM
Your post is kind of hard to read...I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. I think you're saying that you've changed your opinion about the reasons for the Iraq invasion?

sorry bout that, it was ahrd organizing so much of this and trying to see anything i wasnt sure of.


So I have to ask- if you had so little knowledge about the background of the war, how could you argue either pro or con? When you say;

Quote:
gulf war one ended in march 91 i believe? a simple fact i was trying to verify

i am horrible with dates. something women do not let me forget.


...this is an extremely basic and key component of the Iraq story. As anybody interested in the war should know, GW1 did not "end" - hostilities were halted under a cease fire agreement (UN Security Council Resolution 687, dated 3APR91) - the conditions of which were that Saddam allow WMD inspections (which of course he did not to the extent specified in the ceasefire). So GW1 was not ended - we simply came to an agreement that if Saddam would agree to X, Y, and Z, that we would stop shooting.


that is true, major end to hostilities just like in gw2 although way less true than gw1 id say. sorry, didnt use the tech term for it. im not that, correctly inclined in my speech would be the problem.


The cross drilling, the cease-fire, Saddam (repeatedly) violating 687, the oil-for-food program run by the UN...I'm just curious as to how anybody could have argued for or against GW2 without knowing this stuff? What could you have based your opinions on?

well before those were all seperate instances to me that just didnt tie together for what bush was doing. basically, because of those, i thought he was lying to get his way. but after researching why gw1 happened, which my base premiss was a plathora of multiple reasons the media had skewered me with, and i took all of them with a grain of salt except a popular few. also, i had never researched iraqs far past, involvment with kuwait, britain etc. like i said, i had pieces of the puzzle, i had just never researched it all.


Personally, I have always believed that there was something illegal going on between Iraq and France/Germany/Russia, while Iraq was under UN sanctions. For the life of me, I could not imagine why else these nations, who, at the Security Council, have always solidly towed the line & supported the US position, would suddenly throw up a huge roadblock when it came to putting troops on the ground.

well thats what i go at in my idea, but i add the US and britain to the mix and the saudis partly because of opec. after all, the US and britain were also in the food for oil program. so i see it as a circle. now iraq and france have had a interesting history with wepaons trade and other trade BUT, we were on good terms with saddam especially with the iran affair. im aware of some special forces hinting about negative foreign trade with iraq and that is true in the case of iraqs views on israel, but, iraq didnt seem very hostile to us at the time. so theres that point where we cut away and joined the countries with heavy sanctions.


They voted on the conditions of 687, which Saddam routinely violated
They voted to impose sanctions.
They voted to created deadlines and inspection schemes
Then they would not put any "teeth" in the enforcement, so it was all meaningless

well that was slightly confusing for me but i think itbecame clear in the end. why saddam kept kicking out weapons inspectors is a good question. some think wmd, but something tells me with our massive elint and small humint we would have caught a wiff of smuggling movement. i think saddam may have been tired of the UN bullying him and may have simply been balancing a tantrum kicking them out till they yelled then allowing them back in.

you see, the UN HAD to bitch about inspectors going in because its wmd sanction hanged on that quite heavily. it made a show of it for years to show nearly nothing in the end. and if you arent willing to at least pretend your interested in semi enforcing a sanction which you imposed which was disasterous on the country you impose it on, it may come under public scutiny as false. and as you said, they would not put teeth into what they did, which makes me think there was nothing there so to speak in mass quanities etc. i think it was a show to simply justify thier claims so they could continue sanctions, keep iraq under complete control, and extort oil and cash.


Why? I believe it was because somehow, they were profiting from the status-quo. Money was being made. And they were willing to allow the Iraqi people to continue to suffer under Saddam, and allow Saddam to thumb his nose at the UN as long as they were able to line their pockets.

that is entirely true, but again i think the west was in on it because of the pre gulf war history and iraqs messing with kuwait and semi trust in the US at the time.


Of course, this data is only now coming to light. Documents recovered in Iraq have begun to tell the story & the UN oil-for-food scandal is heating up. I guess we'll eventually find out.

that is true and i also think much of it will be discredited by opposing countries and people will believe that generally the material is false given the time line gone by and the US needing to find a smoking gun. if what i think is nearly correct about US and all involved then bush jr cannot go back and re write history and implicate his party or clinton because it will simply lead back to his dad. basically a polticall mosh especially with the huge media pounding. and honestly, i dont think he really needs the wmd smokin gun, and the new evidence is already proving the al queda link which is OBL's section, in which i think more americans would believe soemthing concerning OBL rather than hitting the france russia germany issue again and him not only beating a dead horse but also getting a huge media pounding again, this time with the american public tired of it.


>BTW, I'm not trying to bash France/Germany/Russia etc...it's water under the bridge at this point. I just found their behavior, especially France lying to our Secretary of State, very odd...as if they themselves suddenly had something at stake in Iraq< Just my opinion...

cool i totally understand, i agree, if you feel soemthing then simply follow it with evidence etc.

SOG
06-14-2004, 01:22 PM
Oil for Food...
Proceeds from such oil sales are banked in New York

The U.N. treasurer's office still controls the Oil-for-Food bank accounts, held in the French bank, BNP Paribas.

that is true, again i simplify when i should not,


Proceeds from such oil sales are banked in New York (at the Banque National de Paris). Thirty-four percent is skimmed off for disbursement to outside parties with claims on Iraq, such as the Kuwaitis, as well as to meet the costs of the UN effort in Iraq. A further thirteen percent goes to meet the needs of the Kurdish autonomous area in the north.


As of 2001, one of the largest shareholders in BNP was Iraqi-born Nadhmi Auchi, among Britain’s richest citizens. In the 1980’s Auchi had brokered business deals for Saddam; last year he was convicted in France of illicit profiteering as part of the huge Elf oil scandal. The UN says the Oil-for-Food contract was awarded to BNP on a strictly competitive basis.

right, that is why i have been arguing with stephane non stop with the idea of french absolution, which i think the french had the most to lose because of thier trading history with iraq, and i think thats why they pointed the biggest finger this way out of everyone.


The U.N. has refused to disclose BNP statements, or the amount of interest paid on those balances of billions. Even such directly concerned parties as the Kurdish regional authorities of northern Iraq — entitled to 13 percent of the proceeds of Saddam's Oil-for-Food sales — who for years have been requesting a look at the books, have received no details.


Further Reading on the U.N.'s Oil-For0-Fraud Scheme: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/rosett200403212155.asp

true, again i think the french were a major controller, but i believe the US was tied in on many levels as a instigator as a world leader aka people will follow and as a entity that stayed around on the back end and ripped profits along with all major players. i dont condemn france alone simply because i see a certain number of actions on are part that were needed for this to work, i simply see france as having the most to lose therefore was the loudest and then amplified by our media so that thier points became glaring anti truths.

thanks for your replies guys, i was a bit warry of posting this just because it sounded like a conspiracy theory or some **** and honestly i dont know where its going in certain respects. im just seeing something and following it.

BlackRain
06-14-2004, 01:53 PM
but i believe the US was tied in on many levels as a instigator as a world leader aka people will follow and as a entity that stayed around on the back end and ripped profits along with all major players.

"It is important to note that no U.S. government funds, including those that might have been drawn from U.N. assessments, were involved in the establishment and functioning of the program." Statement of Ambassador John D. Negroponte, U.S. Representative to the United Nations April 7, 2004.

Investigators need to determine whether any U.S. companies violated U.S. laws, specifically regarding U.S. sanctions on Iraq and foreign corrupt practices laws. If it has been determined that U.S. companies and individuals were complicit by engaging in transactions with the Hussein regime, they are subject to the U.S. criminal code and must be dealt with appropriately. In addition to three Congressional panels and the GAO investigating the Oil-for-Food scandal, officials from the U.S. Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) and U.S. Customs are attempting to determine whether American companies were involved. To date, no US corporations have been discovered to have been involved in the Oil for Food scandal.

Containment and Sactions Failed in Iraq

Moreover, one of the key arguments made by the opponents of the Bush Administration’s policies in going to war against Iraq was that there was another and better option than the use of force against the Saddam regime.

It is clear that the corruption of Oil-for-Food program doomed the policy of containment to failure.

In 1991, Senator John Kerry (D-MA) and others advocated economic containment as an alternative to the Gulf War. However, a decade’s worth of U.N.-imposed sanctions did nothing to prevent Saddam Hussein from acquiring billions of dollars that he used to build up his military, support terrorism, and commit atrocities against the Iraqi people.

And now, even in the face of overwhelming scandalous behavior by U.N. officials, Senator Kerry and other war critics argue that only the U.N. had the integrity, international standing, and legitimacy to challenge Saddam Hussein’s regime.

Such remarks, coupled with the already uncovered information surrounding the Oil-for-Food program, say a good deal about the wisdom of the President’s decision to enforce 17 U.N. Security Council resolutions and liberate Iraq with a coalition of the willing.

chauncy republicans
06-14-2004, 02:16 PM
Excerpts from: Telegram no.1979, July 19, 1958, to Prime Minister from Secretary of State, from Washington; file FO 371/132779

After discussions in Washington immediatly after the Iraqi coup, British Foreign Secretary Selwyn Lloyd sent a secret telegram to Prime Minister in wich he considered two options with regard to Kuwait: "immediate British occupation," or "moves toward nominal independence." He advised against the harsher choice. Though..."the advantage of this action would be that we would get our hands firmly on Kuwaiti oil." but "The effect upon international opinion and the rest of the Arab world would not be good." a better choice would be to set up "a kind of Kuwaiti Switzerland where the British do not exercise physical control." But " if this alternative is accepted, we must also accept the need, if things go wrong, ruthlessly to intervene, whoever it is has caused the trouble." He stresses " the complete United States solidarity with us over the Gulf," including the need to "take firm action to maintain our position in Kuwait." and the "similar resolution" of the U.S. "in relations to the Aramco oilfields"(Saudi Arabia) The Americans "agree at all costs these oilfields must be kept in western hands."
"The major British and indeed Western interests in the Pursian Gulf" are...
A) to ensure free access for Britain and other Western countries to oil produced in states bordering the Gulf; B) to ensure the continued avalabilityof that oil on favourable terms and for sterling; and to maintain suitable arangements for the investment of the suurplus revenues of Kuwait; C) to bar the spread of communism and psuedo communism in the area and subsequently beyond;and, as a precondition of this, to defend the area against the brand of Arab nationalism under cover of which the Soviet govornment at presesnt prefers to advance.
"Future Policy in the Pursian Gulf," January 15, 1958, FO 371/132778

Last edited by chauncy republicans on Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Trigger
06-14-2004, 02:59 PM
Helloooooo?
Chauncy?
The article you've posted (again) is still 44 years old.

chauncy republicans
06-14-2004, 03:13 PM
Yes, I know Trigger. I just wish someone could find a more current article, hey wait a second... I just realized I'm the only one who posts Official Documents like this. :cantbeli:

Pooga
06-14-2004, 03:29 PM
Yes, I know Trigger. I just wish someone could find a more current article, hey wait a second... I just realized I'm the only one who posts Official Documents like this. :cantbeli:

Wow, they spelled surplus wrong in your Official Document.

chauncy republicans
06-14-2004, 03:30 PM
Yes, I know Trigger. I just wish someone could find a more current article, hey wait a second... I just realized I'm the only one who posts Official Documents like this. :cantbeli:

Wow, they spelled surplus wrong in your Official Document.
OMG!!!!!!! :roll:

2Sheds_Jackson
06-14-2004, 04:04 PM
Unless that document can be found on a ".gov" type website, I'm not inclined to believe it's any more official that something I write here.

Be that as it may - I still don't see what the fuss is - it simply states that the West has a compelling interest to see that the flow of oil is not interrupted. Which is true.

Or I suppose we could let the region collapse into chaos & death - militant Islamists seize all the oil fields & extort the rest of the world. They grow wealthy, develop nukes, start nuking Israel as soon as the paint dries on their first missile...Israel retaliates...so the world economy is destroyed, massive shortages of fuel/food/goods in the West, millions are dead in the mideast, Western gov'ts are overthrown, chaos in the streets, cats & dogs living together - total anarchy.

I vote for maintaining stability & the flow of oil.

chauncy republicans
06-14-2004, 05:00 PM
Or I suppose we could let the region collapse into chaos & death - militant Islamists seize all the oil fields & extort the rest of the world. They grow wealthy, develop nukes, start nuking Israel as soon as the paint dries on their first missile...Israel retaliates...so the world economy is destroyed, massive shortages of fuel/food/goods in the West, millions are dead in the mideast, Western gov'ts are overthrown, chaos in the streets, cats & dogs living together - total anarchy.
:lol: Sounds like you suffer from paranoia man.
BTW I dont see any problem with our oil interests in the middle-east, I want gasoline as cheap as possible.

SOG
06-15-2004, 02:55 AM
but i believe the US was tied in on many levels as a instigator as a world leader aka people will follow and as a entity that stayed around on the back end and ripped profits along with all major players.

"It is important to note that no U.S. government funds, including those that might have been drawn from U.N. assessments, were involved in the establishment and functioning of the program." Statement of Ambassador John D. Negroponte, U.S. Representative to the United Nations April 7, 2004.

again totally true but i was not speaking of financial backing i was speaking of the US leading the majority of the coalition against its former allie in a coalition, speaking of the US not getting saddam which literally EVERYBODY questioned, and then we were in the program with the heads getting kick backs while iraq suffered horribly. now im not saying the US lead the oil for food but we were definetly there and profiting. and im not saying the US was skimming off the money that was supposed to be used for helping iraqis, but our involvement to a certain point is pretty clear.

my biggest question was, why did bush jr push wmd when the leaders of the world pushed wmd under the UN and found nothing? i think you have a good idea that the further corruption in the UN, which started skimming of the iraqi help money which in turn pushed to investigation pressure which in turn, bush jr may have been simply a loud media blitz diversion. notice that just when the UN was caving in to investigation pressure which could have implicated the entire UN community including ourselves, gw2 broke out. now, any findings will be "after the fact" and all but forgotten in pre and post election in the US and rebuilding events in iraq.

the one thing i cant figure out is why bush jr pushed reasons that were unprovable or hard to prove unless he simply did not want to highlight the UN and its sanctions as being wrong and thus truly liberating iraq. im not sure. and theres alot to be done so future actions could lead to a answer.