New US Helmets, questions

[Britboy]

Hi there,

I was looking at the piccies of PECOC, which is due to be the British Army's new kit, and people had commented on how the helmet looked different and seemed to be similar to the new American ones.

Looking up these, I realise there's now a variety of them. MICH, ACH, and no doubt a few others (Gentex?).

In laymans terms, and simply, whats the difference?
Is one type for the Army and one for the Marines due to separate procurements?
Any types I missed?
Whats with the new smaller sizes? I understand the need for situational awareness but with the current campaigns going on, it looks like more of the head is exposed compared to the old PASGTs...
Why the change? Was PASGT found wanting in some ways?

Also, you guys seem to attach loads of stuff to your skidlids, goggles and NVG mount I get, headtorch in built-up areas I get, but can you explain what some of the other confusing kit on there is?
Something that looks like a set of electronics/cables or something boxy near the rear of it? And a flap to keep it all in?

Just wanting to get a 'heads-up' (hoho I crack meself up :p) if these are headed our way...

BB

[oldsoak]

I think the US also have combat cams attached to their helmets ? I 've also got an idea that there was a program where they attached various sensors to a number of helmets to measure stresses etc under real combat conditions - eg if someone gets hit in the helmet how much was force was transmitted to the user and correlate that with medical data - the idea was to come up with better designs to improve survivability and comfort. both these things would require external power packs of some sort to help balance the helmet.

[Frens]

ok I'll start...

gentex is a manufacturer not a helmet model.

ACH is the US Army designation for the MICH 2000 helmet
LWH (light weight helmet) is the US Marine Corps designation for their upgraded PASGT helmet (lighter, stronger & with new straps)



yes the ACH/MICH leaves the head more exposed but its way lighter and more comfortable than the old PASGT

[Johnny_H02]

Mother of All Helmets!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNHuAArpEzE

[Britboy]

Man the mother of all helmets is down my boxers at the mo! :p

Oldsoak that makes some sense, I thought it might have been some sort of strobe/comms system to either flag up where you are to friendlies or to give you information (Land Warrior? like FIST...)

[Britboy]

Oh and Frens you say the USMC one is just a modified PASGT - same shape, size etc?

It is only the materials that have changed?
And it is only the US Army (+ USAF?) that are wearing new type helmets per se?

Cheers
BB

[Raven_gr]

Mother of All Helmets!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNHuAArpEzE

http://www.imageshack.gr/files/cly3dvvxtux8dh7jbkrs.jpg (http://www.imageshack.gr/view.php?file=cly3dvvxtux8dh7jbkrs.jpg)

Ludicrous speed. GO!

[Skutatos]

Oh and Frens you say the USMC one is just a modified PASGT - same shape, size etc?

It is only the materials that have changed?
And it is only the US Army (+ USAF?) that are wearing new type helmets per se?

Cheers
BB
30% lighter, better suspension system and padding, also the rim is smaller.

[Frens]

Oh and Frens you say the USMC one is just a modified PASGT - same shape, size etc?
It is only the materials that have changed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Helmet

;-)




And it is only the US Army (+ USAF?) that are wearing new type helmets per se?


yes I think so.




(btw, I'm talking about standard troops... SF are different story)

[hitmonjules]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5272/lwhelmetcropar0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9986/070206landwarriorstory1hh9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

These are a front and side view of the MICH/ACH configured for the Land Warrior system with a heads up display, MS2000 strobe, night vision mount, Comtac II and all the cables.

[James]

Some types of night vision devices utilize a battery pack that is separate from the optic. This is likely what you saw in a pic where there were wires and a box attached to the back of a helmet.

[notherhen40]

Make the helmets lighter, add more stuff to fit on it....backward stepping? Cut weight from the PASGT helmet by redesigning the helmet, add hearing aids like head phones which weigh about 1 pound, NVG about 1-2 pounds, and power pack, and sensors which weigh about half a pound, and all this on the soldiers/airmen head....They need to design a integrated helmet that weighs less, and offers superior protection, and field it soon.

[SMGLee]

Make the helmets lighter, add more stuff to fit on it....backward stepping? Cut weight from the PASGT helmet by redesigning the helmet, add hearing aids like head phones which weigh about 1 pound, NVG about 1-2 pounds, and power pack, and sensors which weigh about half a pound, and all this on the soldiers/airmen head....They need to design a integrated helmet that weighs less, and offers superior protection, and field it soon.

I understand your point....but you can also look at it this way...

a lot of the gear mentiioned above are necessary in today's battlefield, so by adding all those gear on a older PASGT helmet, a soldier would have even greater burden compare to the current ACH with all the gear on it....so it is still an improvement.

Kind of like M4 with all the accessories on it... more you save, the more things you can add to it to make the soldier more effective...of course there is a point of over kill.

[bluffcove]

If youve walked about wearing HMNVS, You eventually tape D Cell Batteries to the back plate of the strap to balance the weight on the front.

[Erik2a4]

I understand your point....but you can also look at it this way...

a lot of the gear mentiioned above are necessary in today's battlefield, so by adding all those gear on a older PASGT helmet, a soldier would have even greater burden compare to the current ACH with all the gear on it....so it is still an improvement.

Kind of like M4 with all the accessories on it... more you save, the more things you can add to it to make the soldier more effective...of course there is a point of over kill.

Blasphemy!

He who has the most cool-guy **** on his rifle wins!

ACH is same as MICH. Marines and SOCOM have something different from the US Army because, let's face it, we can't even agree on wearing the same color of boots...why in the world would we decide to save money by purchasing the same body armor or helmets?

We preach jointness, and then we throw it out the window when it comes to procurement.

[SMGLee]

We preach jointness, and then we throw it out the window when it comes to procurement.


wow, that is good!!

[notherhen40]

I understand your point....but you can also look at it this way...

a lot of the gear mentiioned above are necessary in today's battlefield, so by adding all those gear on a older PASGT helmet, a soldier would have even greater burden compare to the current ACH with all the gear on it....so it is still an improvement.

Kind of like M4 with all the accessories on it... more you save, the more things you can add to it to make the soldier more effective...of course there is a point of over kill.


You got that right SGM LEE. But it is over kill on today's battle field necessary............ I remember back in the day when a soldier was issued a set of suspenders, a pistol belt, two to four ammo pouches, and two 1 quart canteens with carriers and cup, and a first aid pouch. Additional items could be attached to the web gear like flash lights, and ponchos. And I also remember the old steel pot, weighed more than the kevalar PASGT helmet when the kevalar came out.g

The point of this post is this... the army in particular likes to get all the hi tech gear that is light, and issues it to troops in hopes of cutting the weight the soldier has to carry. But, commanders, and current doctrine emphasizes use of cameras, sensors, night vision devices and communications devices on today's battle field. Coupled with the weight of the helmet itself, and the weight of the gear on the soldier, today's soldier runs the risk of neck, back and joint problems later in life, and thats not even considering the stress of physical movement, combat, climbing, and falling, all of which occurs in combat.

With the helmet alone, I guess the weight on the soldiers neck, around 10 pounds when all is said and done. This is a problem for troops today. Especially when later in life, a lot of claims for medical care occur because of military related activities.:|

[Apogee]

You got that right SGM LEE. But it is over kill on today's battle field necessary............ I remember back in the day when a soldier was issued a set of suspenders, a pistol belt, two to four ammo pouches, and two 1 quart canteens with carriers and cup, and a first aid pouch. Additional items could be attached to the web gear like flash lights, and ponchos. And I also remember the old steel pot, weighed more than the kevalar PASGT helmet when the kevalar came out.g

The point of this post is this... the army in particular likes to get all the hi tech gear that is light, and issues it to troops in hopes of cutting the weight the soldier has to carry. But, commanders, and current doctrine emphasizes use of cameras, sensors, night vision devices and communications devices on today's battle field. Coupled with the weight of the helmet itself, and the weight of the gear on the soldier, today's soldier runs the risk of neck, back and joint problems later in life, and thats not even considering the stress of physical movement, combat, climbing, and falling, all of which occurs in combat.

With the helmet alone, I guess the weight on the soldiers neck, around 10 pounds when all is said and done. This is a problem for troops today. Especially when later in life, a lot of claims for medical care occur because of military related activities.:|

Just b/c a piece of kit is high tech doesn't make it any better or worse. But if it increases the Soldier's SA, lethality or protection, then it might be worth the cost and weight. I understand that just a few years ago an LCE / LBE got the job done. Sure, it got it done. But the newer equipment like a ballistic armor, night vision goggles, night lasers, ect make the Army more effective, esp at night.

If it keeps guys alive in combat, I think its worth the neck and back problems. And I can tell you that my back is in much worse shape then when I entered the military. Everything has tradeoffs, but a Soldier's life is of the highest priority.

[gafkiwi]

Since "Back in the day" the technology that is availible to the soldier on the ground has changed dramatically. At the start of WWI aircraft were considered by the "Experts" of the day as little more for observation and scaring off cavalry.

I've sustained a hell of alot more injuries from general soldiering, duties and PT, than from wearing my kevlar with a NODS etc fitted. Over time you'd build up strength in your neck and get used to the weight change. Same for weapons.

Like the guys have pointed out the capability this kit gives you far out ways the pain in the neck it gives you. In my time in the service my army has gone from having little to none of this kit, to having pretty much one per man and I know which end of the stick I'd rather be on.

Back to the topic the new ACH/ECHs are in my opinion an good improvement on the older kevlar helmets, they're lighter, smaller and allow more movement and better field of view but still provide basic frag protection. "AND" allow the fitting of "MISSION CRITICAL EQUIPMENT"

[notherhen40]

Since "Back in the day" the technology that is availible to the soldier on the ground has changed dramatically. At the start of WWI aircraft were considered by the "Experts" of the day as little more for observation and scaring off cavalry.

I've sustained a hell of alot more injuries from general soldiering, duties and PT, than from wearing my kevlar with a NODS etc fitted. Over time you'd build up strength in your neck and get used to the weight change. Same for weapons.

Like the guys have pointed out the capability this kit gives you far out ways the pain in the neck it gives you. In my time in the service my army has gone from having little to none of this kit, to having pretty much one per man and I know which end of the stick I'd rather be on.

Back to the topic the new ACH/ECHs are in my opinion an good improvement on the older kevlar helmets, they're lighter, smaller and allow more movement and better field of view but still provide basic frag protection. "AND" allow the fitting of "MISSION CRITICAL EQUIPMENT"

Mission critical equipment..just more to break, and cause something to go wrong.

See, the more crap that a soldier has to carry beside the basics like ammo, weapons, and basic gear places him/her at risk for catastrophic failure in the battle field. Nothing like a person who cannot move as fast as they should because of too much body armor coupled with too much gear.

See, there is only so much weight that you can place on a persons neck. Helmets, and the way they are designed, are a compromise between protection and comfort. But, when you pile 7 pounds of equipment on a helmet that has been designed to cut some of the protection offered from the earlier helmet to save weight, then you have just defeated the purpose. Of the design.

No, all comments here are valid. As I said, its a compromise between protection, comfort, and functionality. The gear designers at Natuck have their work cut out for them.

[LineDoggie]

Sounds like S.L.A.M.'s "The Soldiers Load and the Mobility of a Nation" needs a reprinting and addendums