US Gear

[Blutarsky]

Having all those threads about complaints about US military gear I wonder were it comes from.
To make my self clear without opening up each topic again I will give you some examples:
* The classic M16 jam thread
* The M 113 better than Stryker thread
* The Dragonskin testing thread
* M1 Abrams destroyed in Iraq pics
* The Acupat dislike postings
* Or the couple of days old PASGT better than MICH thread (new to me)
* Even negative comments on SCAR...


Why are those topings coming again and again?
* Because people starting the threads are new and don't use the search button (maybe some of them)
* This forum is full of US service people who don't like their equipment
* US people are talking their own stuff down (would be the reason in my country)
* It is foreigners posting who dislike US military or is proud of the military equipment of his country (mine is better than yours)


AFAIK US is spending more on military equipment than any other country. Even the equipment costs per soldier are the highest. Isn't it sad and bad for the morale that so many bad comments are comming about the equipment?

I hear that US military makes so many tests with the new equipment and still the stuff gets so bad reviews?

When I served the last units switched from FN FAL/STG 58 to AUG. I never heard a single negative comment. It was such a step forward. Back that days we looked at US soldiers at military contests and thought: "Look at all those cool gadgets they have...." and we wished we would get half the funds from our country for equipment.

I don't read threads about IDF people who want to get rid of their Travors or Merkavas or German soldiers who don't like their G36 or Leos...

[Britboy]

Oi, I posted the MICH one. Wasn't slagging it (how could I, I've never worn one), just wanted to find out what its like and if it was better than the previous ones, since it appears to be heading to the British Army to replace our bonedomes as well...

Call it 'rumour intelligence' or getting a heads-up, if you will p-)

Uh and oh yeh if I could reequip the Army I'd have everyone with XM8s, Dragonskin in Multiscam, Blood Diamond trousers (who the feck calls em pants, honestly) and a cheeky grin. LOLOLOLOLOLOL:roll:

Howzat??

[Pappy]

* My M4 never jammed on me once in Iraq. I kept the action clean, but it wasn't imacculate. One key I think is that I changed the followers in my magazines.

* Never tried the stryker, but the M113 sucks major donkey..., well you know what. So I highly doubt it's better than the stryker.

* Dragonskin is cool. It can take an entire magazine's worth of rounds. But when testing single shots, it just didn't stop as many as our current plates. And really, most times you only get hit with one round.

* The M1 was incredibly tough out in sector. The only problem with it, was that it broke down alot and required constant mechanical attention.

* UCP and the ACUs suck. But oh well, we can't change it.

* The ACH is leagues above the PASGT both in comfort and ballistic protection. Plus the lack of the rim above the eyes makes aiming alot easier.

* Wish I could give you some input into the SCAR. I haven't been able to shoot it, but maybe I will when the civilian version comes out :)

[Pappy]

Uh and oh yeh if I could reequip the Army I'd have everyone with XM8s, Dragonskin in Multiscam, Blood Diamond trousers (who the feck calls em pants, honestly) and a cheeky grin. LOLOLOLOLOLOL:roll:

Howzat??

Haha, you know that even the US Army uses the term trousers?

[James]

The vast majority of the threads you mentioned are from pretty new members who fail to use the search function but think that they are contributing something intelligent to mp.net.

They usually start something like "Hi, I'm new here. I've been reading about how badly the M4 is doing in the desert. Why doesn't the U.S. Military get something that works?"

They usually go downhill from there, except for other new members who try to have a discussion amidst the flames because they also don't know that the subject has been done to death.

[Hollis]

Haha, you know that even the US Army uses the term trousers?


That is the correct term, Men wear trousers, Women wear pants.


I get a headache on all these gas piston guns are from god, the M4 and family is a POS discussion.

Buying all the latest greatest crap in the world will not make a person a better soldier or better chance of surviving, It is training, training, and some luck.

[Blutarsky]

That is the correct term, Men wear trousers, Women wear pants.


I get a headache on all these gas piston guns are from god, the M4 and family is a POS discussion.

Buying all the latest greatest crap in the world will not make a person a better soldier or better chance of surviving, It is training, training, and some luck.

Totally agree! But why on earth is it always US equipment? Never read so many gear complains in any other country. And always old stuff good new stuff bad. Maybe because the majority here is US.
I also have the feeling that it is mostly army gear above all other services.

[James]

A lot of stuff you read isn't from actual users, but from kids who've read an article somewhere and have become a self appointed expert. That's sort of what happened with the whole Dragonskin vs. normal armor thread, and that's what has happened often with the piston vs. traditional M16 stuff too. Someone will say that the piston is so much better, but often their only experience with an M4 is airsoft. They fail to realize that product literature is advertising. Of course you're going to say your product is better that everything else out there... :roll:

Another recent phenomena is the result of our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. Military has tested and fielded a hell of a lot more new equipment at all levels since 2001 than they probably did in the 20 years before then. When I was in the USMC in the 1990s much of our equipment wasn't very much different than what had been used in the Vietnam War, 30 years earlier. Skip forward a decade and soldiers and Marines today might as well be spacemen compared to what I had, and that's the 3rd or 4th change in 5 years; uniforms, body armor, helmets, comm gear, load bearing gear, packs, boots, night vision, weapons, etc.

[Blutarsky]

A lot of stuff you read isn't from actual users, but from kids who've read an article somewhere and have become a self appointed expert. That's sort of what happened with the whole Dragonskin vs. normal armor thread, and that's what has happened often with the piston vs. traditional M16 stuff too. Someone will say that the piston is so much better, but often their only experience with an M4 is airsoft. They fail to realize that product literature is advertising. Of course you're going to say your product is better that everything else out there... :roll:

Another recent phenomena is the result of our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The U.S. Military has tested and fielded a hell of a lot more new equipment at all levels since 2001 than they probably did in the 20 years before then. When I was in the USMC in the 1990s much of our equipment wasn't very much different than what had been used in the Vietnam War, 30 years earlier. Skip forward a decade and soldiers and Marines today might as well be spacemen compared to what I had, and that's the 3rd or 4th change in 5 years; uniforms, body armor, helmets, comm gear, load bearing gear, packs, boots, night vision, weapons, etc.

That might be another problem. The eqipment change is too fast. You people had 3 different camo pattern for desert areas in 10 years. Insane. And even with the current one a lot of people are not happy. That costs more than a fortune.

[LineDoggie]

Well, welcome to the world of DoD procurement, where spending money is our First name

[deagle]

we're sticklers for quality.

[Erik2a4]

That might be another problem. The eqipment change is too fast. You people had 3 different camo pattern for desert areas in 10 years. Insane. And even with the current one a lot of people are not happy. That costs more than a fortune.

Money comes from different sources. Now, there is absolutely no good reason why the entire US DoD doesn't wear the same types of combat uniforms. But quite honestly I'd imagine that uniform costs are a pittance compared to end-item expenditures (tanks, planes, ships, etc.)

Honestly, I'm all for changing stuff as fast as possible. Considering that US individual equipment remained basically the same from 1965 to 2003, I'd say more expenditures on individual equipment are warranted.

However the US military is a big place. The US Army is a big place. And the way the US military goes about awarding contracts is...complicated. So, honestly, I'd say it's fine to want the best.

Especially if it's my ass is getting shot at.

[Blutarsky]

Money comes from different sources. Now, there is absolutely no good reason why the entire US DoD doesn't wear the same types of combat uniforms. But quite honestly I'd imagine that uniform costs are a pittance compared to end-item expenditures (tanks, planes, ships, etc.)

Honestly, I'm all for changing stuff as fast as possible. Considering that US individual equipment remained basically the same from 1965 to 2003, I'd say more expenditures on individual equipment are warranted.

However the US military is a big place. The US Army is a big place. And the way the US military goes about awarding contracts is...complicated. So, honestly, I'd say it's fine to want the best.

Especially if it's my ass is getting shot at.
I totally agree with that safety first statement if you have the money for it. Can't measure the life of a single soldier in $.

You are perfectly right with the uniformcosts. It was just an example. I still have the feeling that due to the conflicts equipment is more thrown into action. On the other hand that happens in every nation at war....

I think you had three Generations of personal equipment from the 60ies until now. You stayed with the rifle design and even that war at least two times modified.
Steel pot->PASGT->MICH
M69->PASGT-> Interceptor

[LineDoggie]

Steel pot->PASGT->MICH
M69->PASGT-> Interceptor

M69 Body Armor was pre-Kevlar, basically many layers of Plastic Sheeting like used in Construction. Having worn it I can tell you it sucked, wouldnt even stop a .22LR.

PASGT had the advantage of using Kevlar, but was basically an M69 vest without the Laces or Zipper.

Interceptor Body Armor ROCKS, the Only reason I still Breath is due to that Vest and it's SAPI plates

[Blutarsky]

Interceptor Body Armor ROCKS, the Only reason I still Breath is due to that Vest and it's SAPI plates[/quote]

Glad to hear that. Best thing if soldiers say that about their gear!

[zonk]

I tell you the gear I received in my initial issue back in 98 was of a lot lower quality standard, the new gear coming out is extremely durable. I think a large majority of us can find even a minor fault in any piece of our gear, but then again people are picky. My gear has saved my life as well, the pasgt kept me from getting any serious head injuries and the RBA kept me from breaking my back when I was thrown from a vehicle called a snow cat in Dec.99 in Kosovo en route to a cordon search. I believe many people just nit pick over the gear, I for one think that for the most part, all this new gear is lightyears above what we had. I see almost all mynew soldiers getting gear that is brand new, the gear many of us had back in the late 90's was gear someone had int he early 90's. I know a large majority of my initial issue at bragg was old gear...and they wanted new stuff when you turned it in. lol. got to love it

[Erik2a4]

I totally agree with that safety first statement if you have the money for it. Can't measure the life of a single soldier in $.

You are perfectly right with the uniformcosts. It was just an example. I still have the feeling that due to the conflicts equipment is more thrown into action. On the other hand that happens in every nation at war....

I think you had three Generations of personal equipment from the 60ies until now. You stayed with the rifle design and even that war at least two times modified.
Steel pot->PASGT->MICH
M69->PASGT-> Interceptor

Right, but that wasn't a "revolution" in design, but barely an evolution. The Alice pack, for instance, is an exterior frame pack first designed in the 60s. The Alice LCE is not much different than the H-Harness from the 60's, Jungle Boots from the 60's...you get my drift.

The first time I used an optic on an issue weapon is when I went on exchange to the British Army in 2000.

The fact is that there just isn't a lot of money and research that goes into individual equipment until something necessitates it. Sad, really.

[LineDoggie]

The first time I used an optic on an issue weapon is when I went on exchange to the British Army in 2000.
Really? I had an M68 CCO back in 1994 issued and we were Nasty Gurls.

[Erik2a4]

Really? I had an M68 CCO back in 1994 issued and we were Nasty Gurls.

Yes, but you're not supposed to tell anyone that because you were in a special ninja unit.

I'm talking about across the board equipment. IMHO, it was slap-dash prior to OIF.

Hell, I saw an Air-Defense Artillery unit in Iraq in 2003 in Ramadi that didn't have optics. Amazing.

I do know that even in 2005 what we possessed on a company level versus what was authorized under TO&E was different. Part of that is because of the different procurement systems used.

PEO Soldier has done a great job at getting much needed equipment to guys. Prior to PEO Soldier, however, it was difficult to establish a "need."

[Kap]

* UCP and the ACUs suck. But oh well, we can't change it.

* The ACH is leagues above the PASGT both in comfort and ballistic protection. Plus the lack of the rim above the eyes makes aiming alot easier.



UCP / ACU does suck, but at least the A2CU is comfortable (which I wear) p-).

ACH I think is a step better for women as well, you can at least fit the bun inbetween the helmet and the nape pad so you can get more comfort. And yes the deletion of the rim from the old PASGT was a big positive too, while no more insane headaches while wearing this new ACH.

[LineDoggie]

I actually like the brim on the PASGT K-Pot. helped with the sun, and deflected falling crap, but anyway when I have the choice I go for PASGT over ACH. I upgraded my K-pot with the Oregon Aero liner and 4 point chinstrap, never looked back.

First ACH I had split in half when I landed on the curb from the blast.


Headaches are real fun since then.

[Erik2a4]

I actually like the brim on the PASGT K-Pot. helped with the sun, and deflected falling crap, but anyway when I have the choice I go for PASGT over ACH. I upgraded my K-pot with the Oregon Aero liner and 4 point chinstrap, never looked back.

First ACH I had split in half when I landed on the curb from the blast.


Headaches are real fun since then.

That's all you. I'll stick with the MICH/ACH. I've found that I can't get into a ****e position with body armor and K-pot. But each to his own.