PDA

View Full Version : Islamic Cleric Explains Why Muslims Wage Jihad



Calanen
11-14-2008, 05:03 PM
The reason why jihaad is prescribed


Why do Muslims wage jihad?.



Praise be to Allaah.

Allaah has enjoined jihad for His sake upon the Muslims, for the great benefits that result from that and because of the harm caused by abandoning jihad, some of which are mentioned in Question no. 34830 (http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=34830&dgn=3).
Some of the reasons why jihad for the sake of Allaah is prescribed in Islam are as follows:

1 – The main goal of jihad is to make the people worship Allaah alone and to bring them forth from servitude to people to servitude to the Lord of people. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allaah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zaalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers)”
[al-Baqarah 2:193]

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”
[al-Anfaal 8:39]

Ibn Jareer said:

So fight them until there is no more shirk, and none is worshipped except Allaah alone with no partner or associate, and trials and calamities, which are disbelief and polytheism, are lifted from the slaves of Allaah on earth, and religion is all for Allaah alone, and so that obedience and worship will be devoted to Him alone and none else.

Ibn Katheer said: Allaah commands us to fight the kuffaar so that there will be no fitnah, i.e., shirk, and the religion will all be for Allaah alone, i.e., the religion of Allaah will prevail over all other religions.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “"I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." Narrated by al-Bukhaari (24), Muslim (33).

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been sent just before the Hour with the sword, so that Allaah will be worshipped alone with no partner or associate.”

Narrated by Ahmad, 4869; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2831.

This purpose of jihad was present in the minds of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) during their battles with the enemies of Allaah. Al-Bukhaari (2925) narrated that Jubayr ibn Hayyah said: ‘Umar sent people to all the regions to fight the mushrikeen… so ‘Umar recruited us and appointed al-Nu’maan ibn Muqarrin to lead us. When we were in the land of the enemy, the representative of Chosroes came out to us with forty thousand troops. An interpreter stood up and said: “Let one of you speak to me.” Al-Mugheerah said: “Ask whatever you want.” He asked,
“Who are you?” He (al-Mugheerah) said: “We are some people from among the Arabs.

We used to lead a harsh and miserable life, sucking on animal skins and date stones because of hunger, wearing clothes made of camel and goat hair, worshipping trees and rocks. While we were in this state, the Lord of the heavens and the earth, exalted be His name and glorified be His greatness, sent to us a Prophet from amongst ourselves, whose father and mother we know.

Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), commanded us to fight you until you worship Allaah alone or pay the jizyah. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us the message from our Lord, that whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise to enjoy delights such as no one has ever seen, and whoever among us is left will become your master.”

This is the truth that the Sahaabah and leaders of the Muslims proclaimed in their military campaigns.

Rab’i ibn ‘Aamir said, when Rustam the commander of the Persian armies asked him, “Why have you come?”: “Allaah has sent us to bring forth whomsoever He wills from the worship of man to the worship of Allaah.

When ‘Uqbah ibn Naafi’ reached Tangiers, he rode his horse into the water until the water was up to its chest, then he said: “O Allaah, bear witness that I have done my utmost, and were it not for this sea I would have travelled throughout the land fighting those who disbelieve in You, until none is worshipped except You.”

2 – Repelling the aggression of those who attack the Muslims.

The scholars are unanimously agreed that repelling the aggression of those who attack the Muslims is fard ‘ayn (an individual obligation) upon those who are able to do that.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight in the way of Allaah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allaah likes not the transgressors”
[al-Baqarah 2:190]

“Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allaah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers”
[al-Tawbah 9:13]

3 – Removing fitnah (tribulation)

Fitnah is of different types:
(i) That which is caused by the kuffaar who persecute the Muslims or apply pressure to them to make them give up their religion. Allaah has commanded the Muslims to fight in jihad in order to save those who are weak and oppressed. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allaah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: “Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help”
[al-Nisa’ 4:75]

(ii) The fitnah of the kuffaar themselves and their preventing others from hearing and accepting the truth. That is because the kaafir systems corrupt the innate nature and reason of people, and make them get used to worshipping and submitting to things other than Allaah, getting addicted to alcohol, wallowing in the mire of ****** licence, and losing all characteristics of virtue. Whoever is like that can rarely tell truth from falsehood, good from evil, right from wrong. So jihad is prescribed in order to remove those obstacles that prevent people from hearing and accepting the truth and getting to know it.

4 – Protecting the Islamic state from the evil of the kuffaar.

Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ordered that the leaders of the kuffaar be killed, those who incited the enemies against the Muslims, such as the Jews Ka’b ibn al-Ashraf and Ibn Abi’l-Haqeeq.

Another aspect of jihad is to protect the borders against the kuffaar. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) encouraged that as he said: “Guarding the border for one day for the sake of Allaah is better than this world and everything in it.” Al-Bukhaari, 2678.

5 – Frightening the kuffaar, humiliating them and putting them to shame.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Fight against them so that Allaah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,


And remove the anger of their (believers’) hearts. Allaah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allaah is All-Knowing, All-Wise”
[al-Tawbah 9:14-15]

“And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery) to threaten the enemy of Allaah and your enemy”
[al-Anfaal 8:60]

Hence it is prescribed to fight in a manner that will strike terror into the heart of the enemy.

Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah – may Allaah have mercy on him] was asked whether it is permissible for a soldier to wear silk or gold or silver when fighting or when the envoys of the enemy come to the Muslims.
He replied:

Praise be to Allaah. With regard to wearing silk in order to frighten the enemy, there are two scholarly views, the more correct of which is that it is allowed. The soldiers of Syria wrote to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab saying:

“When we met the enemy we saw that they had covered their weapons with silk and we found that this struck terror in our hearts.” ‘Umar wrote back to them saying: “You should cover your weapons as they do.” And wearing silk is a kind of showing off, and Allaah likes showing off at the time of fighting, as it is narrated in al-Sunan that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is a kind of showing off that Allaah likes, and a kind of showing off that Allaah hates. The showing off that Allaah likes is when a man shows off at the time of war. The kind of showing off that Allaah hates is showing off for the purpose of pride and boasting.” On the day of Uhud, Abu Dujaanah al-Ansaari showed off among the ranks, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “This is a kind of walking that Allaah hates except in this situation.” Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 28/17

6 – Exposing the hypocrites

Allaah says (Interpretation of the meaning):

“But when a decisive Soorah (explaining and ordering things) is sent down, and fighting (Jihaad — holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is mentioned (i.e. ordained) therein, you will see those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) looking at you with a look of one fainting to death”
[Muhammad 47:20]

At times of ease and plenty, the Muslims may be joined by those who seek to make worldly gains, and they do not want to make the word of Allaah prevail over the word of kufr. These people may conceal their real nature from many of the Muslims, and the most effective means of exposing them is jihad, because jihad means sacrificing oneself but these hypocrites are only indulging in hypocrisy in order to save themselves.

Exposing the hypocrites was one of the major purposes that Allaah wanted the believers to achieve on the day of Uhud.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Allaah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He distinguishes the wicked from the good”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:179]

Ibn al-Qayyim said:
This means: Allaah will not leave you in the state in which you are, where the believers are indistinguishable from the hypocrites, until the believers are made distinct from the hypocrites, as they were distinguished by the test on the day of Uhud, and Allaah will not disclose to you the unseen matters by which the one group is distinguished from the other, for they are distinguished from one another in the knowledge of the unseen that He has, but He wants to distinguish them from one another in a clear and visible manner, so that His unseen knowledge will become known and visible.

7 – Purifying the believers of their sins and ridding them thereof
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so are the days (good and not so good), that We give to men by turns, that Allaah may test those who believe, and that He may take martyrs from among you. And Allaah likes not the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers).


And that Allaah may test (or purify) the believers (from sins) and destroy the disbelievers.

Do you think that you will enter Paradise before Allaah tests those of you who fought (in His Cause) and (also) tests those who are As-Saabiroon (the patient)?”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:140-142]

8 – Acquiring booty

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been sent ahead of the Hour with the sword so that Allaah will be worshipped alone, and my provision has been placed in the shade of my spear, and humiliation has been decreed for those who go against my command, and whoever imitates a people is one of them.” Narrated by Ahmad, 4869; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2831.

Al-Haafiz said:

This hadeeth indicates that war booty is permissible for this ummah, and that the provision of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has been placed in war booty and not in other kinds of earnings. Hence some of the scholars said that it is the best kind of earnings.
Al-Qurtubi said:

Allaah sent provision to His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by means of his striving and He made it by means of the best kind of striving which is earning it by means of force and strength.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out for the battle of Badr to meet the caravan of Abu Sufyaan.

Al-Qurtubi said: The fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to meet the caravan indicates that it is permissible to take booty because it is a halaal source of income. This refutes Maalik’s view that this is makrooh, when he said that this was fighting for worldly gains.

Al-Shawkaani said: Ibn Abi Jamrah said: The scholars of hadeeth are of the view that if the primary motive is to make the word of Allaah supreme, it does not matter what else is also achieved.

9 – Taking martyrs.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“If a wound (and killing) has touched you, be sure a similar wound (and killing) has touched the others. And so are the days (good and not so good), that We give to men by turns, that Allaah may test those who believe, and that He may take martyrs from among you. And Allaah likes not the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers).


And that Allaah may test (or purify) the believers (from sins) and destroy the disbelievers”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:140-141]

Martyrdom is one of the highest statuses before Allaah, and the martyrs are the closest of His slaves to Him. There is no status higher than that of siddeeq apart from martyrdom. Allaah loves to take martyrs from among His slaves, who shed their blood for His love and to earn His pleasure, preferring His pleasure and His love above themselves. There is no way to attain this status except by circumstances that may lead to it such as enemies coming against the Muslims.

This was said by Ibn al-Qayyim in Zaad al-Ma’aad.

This is the great wisdom and those who try to put the Muslims off jihad and make them fear it, and say that jihad is no more than death, and making women widows and children orphans, pale into insignificance.

10 – Ridding the world of corruption.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“For had it not been that Allaah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allaah is mentioned much would surely, have been pulled down. Verily, Allaah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allaah is All-
Strong, All-Mighty”
[al-Hajj 22:40]

“And if Allaah did not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief. But Allaah is full of bounty to the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”
[al-Baqarah 2:251]

Muqaatil said:
Were it not that Allaah checked the mushriks by means of the Muslims, the mushriks would have overrun the earth and killed the Muslims and destroyed the mosques.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawaab al-Saheeh, 2/216:
So the kuffar are repelled by means of the Muslims and the worse of the two parties is repelled by the better, just as the Magians (Persians) were repelled by the Christian Byzantines, then the Christians were repelled by the believers of the ummah of Muhammad.

Al-Sa’di said: The world would be corrupted if the kuffaar and evildoers were to prevail.

These are some of the reasons why jihad is prescribed.
We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to their religion. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad.

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/34647

Calanen
11-14-2008, 05:13 PM
This is such a good summary, I'm going to put it in my book. Thanks Sheikh!

Warlord
11-14-2008, 05:18 PM
How many times does it have to be said that Islam means PEACE?

Calanen
11-14-2008, 05:22 PM
How many times does it have to be said that Islam means PEACE?

Or that jihad in fact means 'Spiritual inner struggle'

iLikeFlickerstick
11-14-2008, 05:36 PM
Calanen, are you writing or book or somethin?

Seems like you are a really focused on making sure everyone understands that Islamic Militancy is is very bad thing. Isn't that kind of a no brainer?

seraosha
11-14-2008, 05:42 PM
Calanen, are you writing or book or somethin?

Seems like you are a really focused on making sure everyone understands that Islamic Militancy is is very bad thing. Isn't that kind of a no brainer?

Wait for the morons to show up and do their little PC strut. You can lead a horse to water...Hell, I used to think providing a link to the CAIR website offering free Q'urans was helpful, but the people that complain that Cal is an islamophobe are the same fools that have never taken the time to read the literature for themselves. Read the hadiths, sura, q'uran...hell read up on sharia as a bonus material opportunity. There is nothing more damning than Islam's own words.

Calanen
11-14-2008, 05:45 PM
Calanen, are you writing or book or somethin?

Yes. I said that in my second post.




Seems like you are a really focused on making sure everyone understands that Islamic Militancy is is very bad thing. Isn't that kind of a no brainer



No. What passes for ideas of 'militancy' (not acts of militancy, which are different things) are tenets of mainstream, regular garden variety Islam. Not any extreme, perverse, or distorted Islam, as this guy properly explains. That's what people are missing.

iLikeFlickerstick
11-14-2008, 06:07 PM
No. What passes for ideas of 'militancy' (not acts of militancy, which are different things) are tenets of mainstream, regular garden variety Islam. Not any extreme, perverse, or distorted Islam, as this guy properly explains. That's what people are missing.

Fair enough I suppose. But what's with the cross? Are you some kind of Crudader? *joke*

Mr.Flint
11-14-2008, 06:13 PM
Fair enough I suppose. But what's with the cross? Are you some kind of Crudader? *joke*
Eureka Flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_Flag

LRPV
11-14-2008, 07:55 PM
Fair enough I suppose. But what's with the cross? Are you some kind of Crudader? *joke*

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/image.php?u=29270&dateline=1190704560 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=29270)

Eureka Flag. An Aussie rebel flag if you will. Nothing religious about it. The Eureka stand was the first time Australians made an armed stand against Government forces.

Google-fu will get you the full story. (eg Eureka; John Lalor)

Calanen
11-14-2008, 07:59 PM
Fair enough I suppose. But what's with the cross? Are you some kind of Crudader? *joke*

There actually would be nothing wrong with flying the Cross of St George, as it is the national flag of England. But this is not that, as other readers have said above. It's the Southern Cross, seen in southern skies, that was the flag of miners that revolted against the British government over huge mining licenses.

They got slaughtered of course, but they did have a go. As to it being an aussie rebel flag, the anology falls down in this sense, it had nothing remotely to do with slavery.

ayanami_tard
11-14-2008, 09:02 PM
every one i(ncluding non muslim) can wage jihad.you can struggle from anything you want to fight against(generally inner struggle is more important
for me,i wage holy war to **** and animated **** for myself.sure it is a failing battle(for obvious reason)but i still keep trying every single day.

call it crusade,holy war,anything.it's the same

Calanen
11-14-2008, 10:54 PM
every one i(ncluding non muslim) can wage jihad.you can struggle from anything you want to fight against(generally inner struggle is more important
for me,i wage holy war to **** and animated **** for myself.sure it is a failing battle(for obvious reason)but i still keep trying every single day.

call it crusade,holy war,anything.it's the same

I think you need to read through the first post completely.

While jihad can mean something small in your own life, the overwhelming meaning is for war against the unbelievers in Islamic literature and the imperative for all muslims to join in against it. It is dishonest to say that it is about personal inner struggle alone, that is al taqiyya.

Invisigoth
11-14-2008, 10:56 PM
I think you need to read through the first post completely.

While jihad can mean something small in your own life, the overwhelming meaning is for war against the unbelievers in Islamic literature and the imperative for all muslims to join in against it. It is dishonest to say that it is about personal inner struggle alone, that is al taqiyya.

So this guy speaks for all Muslims? That means if you say something you speak for me? Ah helllll no! rofl

timetraveller
11-14-2008, 11:41 PM
Who is Allah do you actually know ?

Well allah is God which is the same Person ,
, Yet still there is only 1 God , in which other have there own interpertations of his name

GOD = ALLAH are both the same ,

Christianity , Judasim , Islam ,

All share the same God simple as that ,,

VEVAK
11-15-2008, 12:04 AM
Who is Allah do you actually know ?

Well allah is God which is the same Person ,
, Yet still there is only 1 God , in which other have there own interpertations of his name

GOD = ALLAH are both the same ,

Christianity , Judasim , Islam ,

All share the same God simple as that ,,

Well said. Some people use Allah in English, so they can trick the people who dont know that Allah = God.

Even in Persian, "Allah" is not used when conversing or talking about God and a Persian word is used instead, but they all mean the same thing (God=Allah=Other words in different languages that represent the same God)

Calanen
11-15-2008, 12:21 AM
So this guy speaks for all Muslims? That means if you say something you speak for me? Ah helllll no! rofl

Please present the contrary view if you say he is wrong, he quotes from about 20? different authorative Islamic texts. Presenting the view of an Islamic cleric, is just a view. I have never claimed he speaks for anyone, but as to his view about jihad and what it really means in Islam, then this is about as accurate as it gets. As to what it may mean for any particular muslim who knows, but it means warfare to enough believers that they have given the greatest army in the world a run for its money in the last 8 years. And that takes more than just a tiny minority of misunderstanders of the true Islam, both in terms of men, materials and money.

Calanen
11-15-2008, 12:23 AM
Who is Allah do you actually know ?

Well allah is God which is the same Person ,
, Yet still there is only 1 God , in which other have there own interpertations of his name

GOD = ALLAH are both the same ,

Christianity , Judasim , Islam ,

All share the same God simple as that ,,

I don't understand why this matters. This thread was about what jihad means, not what, allah means. Allah does mean God, and both Arabic Christians and Muslims use the same word 'allah' to refer to God. I dont think I have ever claimed otherwise.

m.i.t
11-15-2008, 05:16 PM
I don't understand why this matters. This thread was about what jihad means, not what, allah means. Allah does mean God, and both Arabic Christians and Muslims use the same word 'allah' to refer to God. I dont think I have ever claimed otherwise.

Cal.
Do you know how first christians and Holly Jesus called God ?

Or what is the origins of name " God "?

Did it come from latin language?

seraosha
11-15-2008, 06:05 PM
Cal.
Do you know how first christians and Holly Jesus called God ?

Or what is the origins of name " God "?

Did it come from latin language?

And this has what to do with jihad?
And it's "Holy"..."Holly" would refer to druids, I believe.

California Joe
11-15-2008, 06:09 PM
F*ck me are there Cliff Notes for this somewhere?

Calanen
11-15-2008, 06:30 PM
F*ck me are there Cliff Notes for this somewhere?

That's the problem, it is *appallingly* complex. So for us poor infidels to understand is very very difficult.

That makes it very easy for an incorrect interpretation, or Islam Light, as I like to call it to be presented and accepted by the West as 'the truth'. To determine otherwise is diabolically complicated that most people give up or do not try.

To get to the bottom of what is more accurately the truth, is a bit like running a multimillion dollar fraud case. Millions of documents and the juries eyes just glaze over.

Calanen
11-15-2008, 06:36 PM
Cal.
Do you know how first christians and Holly Jesus called God ?

Or what is the origins of name " God "?

Did it come from latin language?

God was called Deus, in Latin. But the first Christians didnt speak Latin. They spoke Aramaic, and in Aramaic, the word for God was Elah.

I dont think either of these things matter however in the context of what the thread was about.

non
11-15-2008, 07:51 PM
Calanen:

That makes it very easy for an incorrect interpretation, or Islam Light, as I like to call it to be presented and accepted by the West as 'the truth'. To determine otherwise is diabolically complicated that most people give up or do not try.
You seem awfully convinced of a vast conspiracy is afoot. Just sayin.


To get to the bottom of what is more accurately the truth, is a bit like running a multimillion dollar fraud case. Millions of documents and the juries eyes just glaze over.
JMO, but I doubt the average Muslim has the time or turn of mind for it either.


but it means warfare to enough believers that they have given the greatest army in the world a run for its money in the last 8 years. And that takes more than just a tiny minority of misunderstanders of the true Islam, both in terms of men, materials and money.
Ahem: I'm certainly not a Jihadist or filthy back-stabbing sympathiser, but we should put that in context and consider where "the greatest army in the world" is engaging all these Jihadists. I don't think it's merely to make Allah smile down upon the world(ME and parts of Far East) that these people are fighting. However, yes, Jihadist rhetoric makes good recruiting material for 'cannon fodder' or martyrs, so it's the most visible motivation from the outside.

Calanen
11-15-2008, 08:04 PM
[QUOTE]
Calanen:

You seem awfully convinced of a vast conspiracy is afoot. Just sayin.


I don't say there is a vast conspiracy afoot, I do say there are conspirators about. It depends what you mean by conspiracy. If you think I am saying (couldnt see how) that AQ, the Leftist Socialist Alliance and Apologists Anonymous all meet regularly together Protocols of the Elders of Zion style, then no. There is a strong impetus though to "Kill the Messenger', 'Kumbaya' and the prevention of debate about anything which is different to the thought police version of 'Correct Thinking'.

Criticism of Islam, however legitimate, is seen to be in diametric opposition to multicultist rhetoric, so the apologists come out in spades. For them, their views, are the Absolute Divine Truth, and cannot be questioned, considered, or reformed in any way. So no wonder they come out swinging. There is no room for debate at all - they have found the one holy truth about multiculturalism and rampant immigration, and to challenge that is to be by definition a Nazi. And we dont listen to Nazis.

But you seem awfully convinced that whatever I have to say must be incorrect and a wild 'conspiracy', whatever evidence is presented in support of it. Apparently my 'conspiracy' theories have infected MI5, and led them to prepare a report about the jihadist threats.

Just saying.


JMO, but I doubt the average Muslim has the time or turn of mind for it either.

It would be hard to know what the average Muslim does or does not do. But to understand that it is a central doctrine of the Islamic religion itself to overthrow and rule over all other systems, and use jihad to do it, is very very important. And to know that this is mainstream regular Islam is important, not misunderstander weirdo extremist Islam.


Ahem: I'm certainly not a Jihadist or filthy back-stabbing sympathiser, but we should put that in context and consider where "the greatest army in the world" is engaging all these Jihadists.

Where? At the moment in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and to a far lesser extent in an advisory capacity in the Philippines. There has also been US assistance provided in Somalia.


I don't think it's merely to make Allah smile down upon the world(ME and parts of Far East) that these people are fighting. However, yes, Jihadist rhetoric makes good recruiting material for 'cannon fodder' or martyrs, so it's the most visible motivation from the outside.

Why do you think that? They tell us exactly why they are doing what they are doing. They post videos and leave statements by the 1000s. And yes it is a very good way of getting troops, but pretending that Islam itself does not support getting people to fight in a jihad, or that these guys have some perverse version of misunderstander Islam is not correct. They do depart from Islamic teachings in many of their acts, but not at all in their aims or stated philosophy.

timetraveller
11-15-2008, 08:51 PM
Well said. Some people use Allah in English, so they can trick the people who dont know that Allah = God.

Even in Persian, "Allah" is not used when conversing or talking about God and a Persian word is used instead, but they all mean the same thing (God=Allah=Other words in different languages that represent the same God)


Thank you Brother ...

It's noted and posted ....

non
11-15-2008, 08:55 PM
All quotes, Calanen:

I don't say there is a vast conspiracy afoot, I do say there are conspirators about. It depends what you mean by conspiracy. If you think I am saying (couldnt see how) that AQ, the Leftist Socialist Alliance and Apologists Anonymous all meet regularly together Protocols of the Elders of Zion style, then no. There is a strong impetus though to "Kill the Messenger', 'Kumbaya' and the prevention of debate about anything which is different to the thought police version of 'Correct Thinking'.

Criticism of Islam, however legitimate, is seen to be in diametric opposition to multicultist rhetoric, so the apologists come out in spades. For them, their views, are the Absolute Divine Truth, and cannot be questioned, considered, or reformed in any way. So no wonder they come out swinging. There is no room for debate at all - they have found the one holy truth about multiculturalism and rampant immigration, and to challenge that is to be by definition a Nazi. And we dont listen to Nazis.

But you seem awfully convinced that whatever I have to say must be incorrect and a wild 'conspiracy', whatever evidence is presented in support of it. Apparently my 'conspiracy' theories have infected MI5, and led them to prepare a report about the jihadist threats.
Actually, what I inferred from your statement was that you might be discounting any Muslim who stresses that they are not for violent interpretations as being liars and Jihadists in wait. It was the only way I could interpret the statement was referring to, however, if my mis-reading, my bad. Apologies.


But you seem awfully convinced that whatever I have to say must be incorrect and a wild 'conspiracy
No. I was referring to the part of the post I wrapped in quoted text format, not to "whatever" you say. However, I'll be honest. I do think you start alot of threads on one particular topic. I'm not complaining about that, or trying to p**-*oo your threads by posting on them, but...
Well, you know...just saying.p-)

Apparently my 'conspiracy' theories have infected MI5, and led them to prepare a report about the jihadist threats
Hopefully, for the safety of the people of the UK, MI5 investigates any possible threat, anywhere, within reasonable hypothesis.


At the moment in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and to a far lesser extent in an advisory capacity in the Philippines. There has also been US assistance provided in Somalia.
Yeah, there.


They tell us exactly why they are doing what they are doing.
Yes and the Holy See told the 'reasons' for the Crusades, and the Teutonic Order had similar 'reasons' for their conquests. Christianity is Jihadist? As I wrote, it's recruitment material. It's not neccesarily the root cause for the people who are organizing and funding Jihad, or maybe it is.

Criticism of Islam, however legitimate, is seen to be in diametric opposition to multicultist rhetoric, so the apologists come out in spades. For them, their views, are the Absolute Divine Truth, and cannot be questioned, considered, or reformed in any way.
The reason I think many people neglect to see what you are saying as the truth that you see it as is because it's not very helpful.
For instance, what's to be done if you're correct? Implement xenophobic policies towards members of one of the worlds largest monotheistic religions?
What other point to believing that the core message of the Muslim religion is harmful to Westerners or non-believers is there? What other product could come from the acceptance of this 'fact'?

In other words, I'll accept Muslim is bad ju-ju if you'll offer some suggestions about what to do about it that don't explicitly or implicitly declare war on all members of an entire religion.

timetraveller
11-15-2008, 08:58 PM
I don't understand why this matters. This thread was about what jihad means, not what, allah means. Allah does mean God, and both Arabic Christians and Muslims use the same word 'allah' to refer to God. I dont think I have ever claimed otherwise.


when was the last time you actually ever had conversation with a muslim ... in the street or in the workplace ...

Answer that

if you have never , how can you honestly take pride in what you post ...

I wrk with Muslims from pakistan , turkey , polish , bulgarians , sikhs , hindu's and malayisan's , chinese and japanese ...

I have also worked with germans , aussies , swedish , austrians , americans , canadians , and french and ..... morroccans

..............................

Calanen
11-15-2008, 10:48 PM
when was the last time you actually ever had conversation with a muslim ... in the street or in the workplace ...

Answer that


I think there has been a number of posts on that very topic. Please scroll up. Although, apparently the reason for my point of view is that I do not speak to Muslims, and then if I do speak to Muslims that's a source of criticism too. Whether I speak to Muslims or not, doesnt really make a lot of difference either way. As it happens, most of my criminal clients tend to be muslims.



if you have never , how can you honestly take pride in what you post ...

I wrk with Muslims from pakistan , turkey , polish , bulgarians , sikhs , hindu's and malayisan's , chinese and japanese ...

I have also worked with germans , aussies , swedish , austrians , americans , canadians , and french and ..... morroccans


Your particular and limited experience with individual muslims, says nothing about what Islam says or is.

Calanen
11-15-2008, 11:03 PM
Actually, what I inferred from your statement was that you might be discounting any Muslim who stresses that they are not for violent interpretations as being liars and Jihadists in wait. It was the only way I could interpret the statement was referring to, however, if my mis-reading, my bad. Apologies.

No I don't say that. What I do say is that people there are people who solidly support jihad but then present Islam Light or Diet Islam to the world. CAIR is a major proponent of this deception. As to what individual muslims believe or do, you'd get a spectrum of approaches. It is telling however, that you very seldom see argument against the doctrinal basis of jihad, only catchall statements about racism, etc as a response. So it is more important to silence the critic with perjoratives than deal with the arguments. Which cant be dealt with in my submission.



No. I was referring to the part of the post I wrapped in quoted text format, not to "whatever" you say. However, I'll be honest. I do think you start alot of threads on one particular topic. I'm not complaining about that, or trying to p**-*oo your threads by posting on them, but...
Well, you know...just saying.p-)


I do. It is something that interests me, and many other people. It is the most important political security question facing the West.


Hopefully, for the safety of the people of the UK, MI5 investigates any possible threat, anywhere, within reasonable hypothesis.

Well that's the rub isnt it. The major threat is from one source at the moment ever since the Good Friday Accords.



Yes and the Holy See told the 'reasons' for the Crusades, and the Teutonic Order had similar 'reasons' for their conquests.


Not really, no. This argument is a little tiresome for a number of reasons. But let me set them out, again.

1) There is no similar doctrine of conquering and slaying the unbelievers as a central tenet of christianity, there just isnt. There is no concept of getting 'war booty' as a means of halal income in christianity. There is no concept of supremacism and conquering the government in christianity. Not even back then.

2) The Crusade were primarily defensive wars in response to Islamic aggression and expansion into the Byzantine Empire. Remember also, Islam had conquered Spain and half of France, until being kicked out. Muslims were slaughtering pilgrims to the Holy Land, and the Knights Templar were created to safely escort pilgrims to the Holy Land. There was no concept *at all* of Christianity having some doctrine of jihad to conquer muslims and instal 'christian' government.


Christianity is Jihadist? As I wrote, it's recruitment material. It's not neccesarily the root cause for the people who are organizing and funding Jihad, or maybe it is.

The root cause is that jihad is a central part of the religion. You must fight and slay unbelievers and install sharia. You must do it, as a central part of Islam.


The reason I think many people neglect to see what you are saying as the truth that you see it as is because it's not very helpful.

Bad news often not seen as helpful. No patient likes to be told they have cancer, but sometimes they have to be.


For instance, what's to be done if you're correct? Implement xenophobic policies towards members of one of the worlds largest monotheistic religions?

That's a different thing altogether. If you are saying, well even if you are correct there is nothing that can be done so please stop speaking. What I want is for people to know the truth, and they can decide what they want on an informed basis. Whatever that is.

It is not 'xenophobic' to be against a philosophy that wishes to destroy you, your government, your society and your religion. No more than it is racist and intolerant against Germans to be anti-fascist.


What other point to believing that the core message of the Muslim religion is harmful to Westerners or non-believers is there? What other product could come from the acceptance of this 'fact'?

The product that would come is that people can make an informed decision as to whether they want this in their societies, instead of having it rammed down their throats as of right as medicine which is good for them. How about that?


In other words, I'll accept Muslim is bad ju-ju if you'll offer some suggestions about what to do about it that don't explicitly or implicitly declare war on all members of an entire religion.

First things first. People have to understand the truth about Islam and what its intents and aspirations are. Then, whatever happens next is really up to the community. I have posted in other threads what I see as important in this regard.

The most important thing is to keep Muslim numbers low in Western societies. There is no way to know whether an Islamic person is a moderate or someone prepared to take extremist action. The higher the numbers get, the more likely people are to join in.

To continue to import people who hold values that are entirely opposite to western ideals of freedom of religion, ****** expression, dress, democracy is a recipe for disaster. It is naive in the extreme to believe that people who hold such views, and say they hold such views, suddenly become westernised and believe in freedom, democracy, and the support of western systems as they hit the tarmac.

I would end Islamic immigration or severely limit it. The high birth rate of muslims means that there are probably going to be too great a number of people who subscribe to a philosophy that wants you and your world - gone. Diversity is fine, but we should not be so open minded that our brains have fallen out of our heads. We can have a small number of people who would like to overthrow the government and have a jihad. But having a large number of such people is just idiocy.

non
11-16-2008, 04:11 PM
Calanen:

It is telling however, that you very seldom see argument against the doctrinal basis of jihad, only catchall statements about racism, etc as a response. So it is more important to silence the critic with perjoratives than deal with the arguments. Which cant be dealt with in my submission.
"all"=22. I see it as an inevitable quality of the extension of the war with Jihadists on the domestic fronts of the respective nations of the West. I'm not arguing that Jihad isn't a bad thing. Ofcourse, I agree. I'm an infidel, but hammering that point home isn't the end of the story.


The root cause is that jihad is a central part of the religion. You must fight and slay unbelievers and install sharia. You must do it, as a central part of Islam.
Well, I have a hard time accepting that kind of reductivism out of caution alone(it's definitely nothing to do with any personalIslamic scholarship). "Tiresome" an argument as it might be, the "root cause" (my original badly worded way of putting it) of Christianity was arguably conversion. Hence, the aforementioned Teutonic Order and we could extend to the priests that sailed and worked alongside Conquistadors as well, but this was a long time ago and I didn't bring it up to diverge from what's happening today with some Islamists.

However, if you were to go into particular churches in the US, you would find quite a few "hold values that are entirely opposite to western ideals of freedom of religion, ****** expression, dress"(Calanen). If you were to go onto the right message boards, you would find quite a few nutters who wish to wage war on the joo fed reserve, IRS, media conglomerates spreading loose morals and duh AIDS, etc.
The whole of present day Christianity is not supportive of these particular things. So, I have a hard time believing that all Muslims are for Jihad.


If you are saying, well even if you are correct there is nothing that can be done so please stop speaking.
A far more efficient (but no more effective,ofcourse) way for me to do that would be not to post at all on any of your threads. I never declared Jihad on you.


It is not 'xenophobic' to be against a philosophy that wishes to destroy you, your government, your society and your religion.
...and my argument has been that it is not as clear cut as you like to make it.


The most important thing is to keep Muslim numbers low in Western societies. There is no way to know whether an Islamic person is a moderate or someone prepared to take extremist action. The higher the numbers get, the more likely people are to join in.
Well, there's the question of policies, needs for cheap labor and what to do with the numbers already living in Europe alone(numbers from varying parts of the world depending on the host country they live in dependent upon the individual host countrys particular history abroad. They're not just Muslims in the EU. They're Turkish imigrants in Germany. Pakistanis in UK. Algerians in France, etc.) US has Mexico and Central America to deal with(not that they're waging Jihad, and interestingly enough, many of them peeved about Somali immigrants in the work place).
Now, here's the part where you will accuse me of knee jerk reaction of fears of racism, and you're right. When I read words like the above quoted, my knee invaribly flies upwards.

However:

What I want is for people to know the truth, and they can decide what they want on an informed basis. Whatever that is.
Fair enough. I'd like the same.

Calanen
11-16-2008, 04:39 PM
Well, I have a hard time accepting that kind of reductivism out of caution alone(it's definitely nothing to do with any personalIslamic scholarship). "Tiresome" an argument as it might be, the "root cause" (my original badly worded way of putting it) of Christianity was arguably conversion.

No it wasnt. If it interests you, you can read some more about the Crusades.


However, if you were to go into particular churches in the US, you would find quite a few "hold values that are entirely opposite to western ideals of freedom of religion, ****** expression, dress"(Calanen). If you were to go onto the right message boards, you would find quite a few nutters who wish to wage war on the joo fed reserve, IRS, media conglomerates spreading loose morals and duh AIDS, etc.

These people, whoever they are, are NOTHING compared to the global support of jihadi islam, backed by sovereign governments with billions. In terms of operational success, and ability to bring destruction, the ability to point to other people with weird views from christianity is meaningless.There is not even one christian theocracy backing them, anywhere.



The whole of present day Christianity is not supportive of these particular things. So, I have a hard time believing that all Muslims are for Jihad.

I didnt say that all muslims are for jihad, anywhere. Or that all muslims are for anything, anywhere. I said that it is a central tenet of Islam, to be for jihad. It is not weird misunderstander islam. It is Islam.


A far more efficient (but no more effective,ofcourse) way for me to do that would be not to post at all on any of your threads. I never declared Jihad on you.

I wasnt speaking about you, I was speaking about the default position to respond to any critic of Islam - the Western apologist that is. The Islamic critic has different range of default perjoratives.




...and my argument has been that it is not as clear cut as you like to make it.


Nothing is. It is a forum board, not a Phd thesis. But what no one ever does, is respond with the same level of detail to counter what I say. They just say Im wrong, or I am a racist, or whatever.


Well, there's the question of policies, needs for cheap labor and what to do with the numbers already living in Europe alone(numbers from varying parts of the world depending on the host country they live in dependent upon the individual host countrys particular history abroad.

We dont need cheap labor anymore. The long boom is over.



US has Mexico and Central America to deal with(not that they're waging Jihad, and interestingly enough, many of them peeved about Somali immigrants in the work place).


Couldn't care less about hispanics. They are mostly Catholics, and there is no imperative to overthrow the government and install Catholic theocracy in Catholicism. Similarly, I dont care about Sikhs or Hindus.




Now, here's the part where you will accuse me of knee jerk reaction of fears of racism, and you're right. When I read words like the above quoted, my knee invaribly flies upwards.



Islam is not a race. You asked me what my solution is, and I told you. Don't like the solution that is fine. But if you subscribe to an ideology that wants to overthrow the government, I think you should be excluded, even if it is seen as your religion to believe such things.

non
11-16-2008, 05:44 PM
Calanen:

No it wasnt. If it interests you, you can read some more about the Crusades.
Actually, I made no mention of the Crusades in the last post because I considered your point on it to be correct and conclusive enough.


I didnt say that all muslims are for jihad, anywhere. Or that all muslims are for anything, anywhere. I said that it is a central tenet of Islam, to be for jihad. It is not weird misunderstander islam. It is Islam.

What the hell's the difference given the conclusions of your line of thought?(e.g.,"There is no way to know whether an Islamic person is a moderate or someone prepared to take extremist action." ergo, safe side is keeping them at bay, far away, and possibly force emmigration. Ah, hell, just make 'em disappear. If I'm 'putting words in your mouth', it's because you make it very easy, and make it very difficult to see any other conclusions to what you are suggesting.)

Any moderate arguments that "Jihad" is not the sole or central tenet of Islam, or that "Jihad" is not tantamount to 'Holy War' have already been dismissed by you. In fact, any arguments from moderates have already been relativised or insinuated to be excuses, lies, or subterfuge for the furtherance of global take-over.


I wasnt speaking about you, I was speaking about the default position to respond to any critic of Islam
Fine. For the record, I, myself, have no reservations about criticising Jihadist factions and also Western Muslim immigrants who force their ways of life on a host populace, often via a refusal to compromise(pure arrogance on their part).


Nothing is. It is a forum board, not a Phd thesis. But what no one ever does, is respond with the same level of detail to counter what I say. They just say Im wrong, or I am a racist, or whatever.
I've never read these things, but if you feel they've insinuated as much, fine. However, you tend to start threads featuring something along the lines of 'bad muslim...bad, bad muslim' in a very limited context, that in general insinuates something universal about all members of a religion, but anytime anybody should widen the scope of the argument due to these (I believe, very intenmtional insinuations) you moan about them not being part of your context limited thread topic.
Very win/win for you, I think.


We dont need cheap labor anymore. The long boom is over.
Maybe...but we did. What to do with the 'residue'?




Islam is not a race.
I used the wrong word. Nailed it.


Couldn't care less about hispanics.
I was discussing US immigration and border control concerns at present, since the US constitutes part of the "West'. I might have verged a little off-topic. Sorry.


But if you subscribe to an ideology that wants to overthrow the government, I think you should be excluded, even if it is seen as your religion to believe such things.
Once again, irresponsible reductivist logic and dramatic leap to sloppy conclusions that blurs political ideology with religious faith. In other words, similar to what Jihadist nutters have done.