Torture in Iraq (new photos)

[2SARPQ]

Warning: some of these pics are graphic....

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

What kind of military, or human beings can amuse themselves doing this ****....? They should have their heads kicked....what amazes me the most is that even girls (bitches?) participate on this....

[dejawolf]

they probably are avenging their friends, killed by suicide bombers, or people with AK's firing from whithin crowds.

i'd guess a few of these were actually captured during some of these events, thereby the anger.

nevertheless, they're just proving that they're no better than the iraqis.
i'm not saying worse, just not better.

btw, anyone remember the prisons in russia, during soviet times?
remember how terrible that was? prisoners just disappearing, getting tortured, beaten etc.
remember how americans imagined that their country would never be able to do something as "horrific" as that?

[Dalleer]

Hmm, come to think of it I wouldn't have not been that interested of seeing those pictures anyway...

Talk about the weakness of human curiosity here.

Anyway, I'm off to take some photos of Swedish navy ships now..

[Shake n Bake]

Abu Ghraib Prison


I'am suppose to feel sorry for these scumbags?

[2SARPQ]

Abu Ghraib Prison


I'am suppose to feel sorry for these scumbags?
Of course not...we should all go there and have a good kicking ourselves..... :cantbeli:

I don't see military personnel having "revenge" because of fallen comrades or the 11th September....they're having a bit of sadistic fun just because they can.....
:bash:

[Bugalugs]

has anyone seen the letter that BRIG Karpinski wrote to the ICRC? she must have cracked open her copies of the Geneva Conventions when she was on an LSD trip....

[Olybrius]

Karpinski... , she's speaking now ...


Iraq abuse 'ordered from the top'

Images of the abuse have shocked the world
The US commander at the centre of the Iraqi prisoner scandal says she was told to treat detainees like dogs.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3806713.stm

[Fargin]

Abu Ghraib Prison


I'am suppose to feel sorry for these scumbags?

Land of the free, home of hypocrisy.

That's why.

[Bugalugs]

care factor zero here!
i hope she ends up turning tricks in womens prison with the rest of her subordinates. I hope the buck doesnt stop with some poor flea-bitten hick MP Private who wouldnt know better, like the way it did with LT Bill Calley......

[Midav]

"Abuse at the prison has shocked the world...."

Meanwhile, several westerners have had their heads chopped over the past copuple of weeks by many of the same thinking individuals as are confined at abu gharib.

Yeah, I feel real sad for the these people or the hypocrisy of the world....

[Bugalugs]

and weve gone about alienating a lot of the Iraqi people who, if treated properly by the Coalition, would drag the murders by their ankles to the local checkpoint and dance on their heads for our entertainment.....

[Fargin]

Sure, they only abuse the prisoners because they are terrorists scum.

Sure, they only behead the hostages because prisoners are being abused.

The same that claimed moral highground, now dismisses torture as pranks. That's the hypocrisy I'm talking about. The news didn't shock me at all, it saddened me that my prejudice was being confirmed.

I'm not particulary shocked about the beheading, this s*** happens in a place there human life has less value than fanatic ideologies. I was not shocked about the torture pics from Abu Graib, it was only a matter of time before the already once ignored/dismissed accusations reached "so called" unbiased news media and would be impossible to ignore. When the Commander in chief send the signal: "The geneva convention does not apply to noncombatans,"you got your carte blanche to roam the prisons of Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay.

[Bugalugs]

They dont even claim that the prisoners are illegal combatants

the letter to the ICRC stated that they were being afforded PW status under GC III, even where status was yet to be determined, otherwise they were civilian detainess under GC IV. They come up with some "absolute military security " crap excuse for smacking them around.

of course in every good lie there is a grain of truth - this "absolute military security" is mentioned in GC IV, but only to negate the prisoners right to communicate withthe outside if they are found to be spies or saboteurs. The US is writing International Law on the run again......

[Midav]

The same that claimed moral highground, now dismisses torture as pranks.

Eaxctly and I couldn't agree more!

That's pretty much any nation out there that proclaims to be shocked at what they saw at abu gharib, yet little is said about said beheadings, or the slaughter of many civilians in Congo etc....

It's sad.

[Fargin]

Because extremist killings are like trafic, it's a calculated risk. You guys were suppose to value life, integrety and prisoners rights a little higher than some brainwashed terrorists.

You were suppose to be better than them.

That's the sad part.

[Midav]

I have never seen any culture being better than any other in anything.
I'm sorry.

My personal belief that I have posted on the boards is this:

If the people at abu gharib were petty criminals, then yes, it was stupid to do what happened there.
If they were un-uniformed combatants and/or terrorists, do with them as pleased.

I am for teaching and schooling the younger muslim people. However, those that are a lost cause, kill them. Then, feed their remains to pigs.

[G1]

There's no outcry over beheadings because terrorists are EXPECTED to do these things, for crying out loud. What would be the point of staging protests against a few guys with AK's? Don't you see? Americans are SUPPOSED to be better than terrorists, and they claim that they are liberating the Iraqi people. The terrorists/resistance/whatever clearly state that they will do whatever it takes to fulfill their goals, while the U.S is supposed to act according to laws and common decency. Outcry is to achieve a change in a democratic system. I can't believe I'm explaining something this simple.

As for feeling "sorry" for prisoners, if you knew what was going on you would know that most were DETAINEES, since the U.S has no system in place there to actually have trials and convict prisoners, the men on the pictures could have been arrested for jaywalking or looking suspicious. Jesus.

:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[Midav]

Guys.. This is a new type of war. I realize in the PC world, everything is perfect, we all love another and go swimming in milk and honey.

I just said, teach the younger generation and those that want to learn. Educate them.

The fanatics, crazies, muslim jihadists or whatever anyone wants to call them, are hell bent on killing Americans/Westerners in general.

They will not get any sympathy from me. If they can cut human beings up like animals at a slaughter, then they themselves should be treated like animals.

And I will repeat once again:

If the "detainees", were brought in and nobody has a clue as to what they did, ie they are in for stealing candy from a baby, then it's stupid what happened.

If they were involved in the fighting...... have fun ;)

[Fargin]

I'm conserned.

[Midav]

Yeah, I'm also concerned ;)

[Fargin]

In that case I'll go open a brewski and easy of on the political dead end discussions and drink to our mutual health. Cheers! :D

[Midav]

I can drink to that, too. Cheers, mate!!

[One?]

Abu Ghraib Prison


I'am suppose to feel sorry for these scumbags?

stfu you're a scumbag. Fuking cowards

[ZeroPositive]

pretty ****ty situation, tbh no one comes out the winner....
Looks more dog eat dog then anything else.

[Deminer from Sarajevo]

I think scandal "Abu-Garib" has done big damage to morale of coalition troops,and in another hand evry mockeries which used by warrior of jihad by tenth years for now have got justifications in their propaganda.For now they can kill thouthasand people as civilian,inclaude more number iraq's christians,kurds and simply people who is not agree with their politica and excused by "Abu-Garib"

[5jumpchump]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn......

[budanski]

Those who make war on civilians are NOT soldiers and are not deserving of the Geneva Convention protections. (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005144)

I can see the Geneva Conventions being used in a conventional war, but this war is anything but conventional. I don't condone some of the torture methods they used (****** conduct), but crying over placing panties on a prisoners heads, gimme a break. Those same prisoners did much worse under Saddams regime.

[American Patriot]

Maybe the soldiers did it because the prisoners were ardent Islamists that wouldn't stop talking about/praying to their Allah all day. You tell them to shut up and they just stare blankly at you and continue with their Allah gibberish.

Makes sense. :oops:

[Macs.]

Maybe the soldiers did it because the prisoners were ardent Islamists that wouldn't stop talking about/praying to their Allah all day. You tell them to shut up and they just stare blankly at you and continue with their Allah gibberish.

Makes sense. :oops:

If you can't handle a situation like this, you shouldn't work in a prison.

[One?]

Those who make war on civilians are NOT soldiers and are not deserving of the Geneva Convention protections. (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005144)

I can see the Geneva Conventions being used in a conventional war, but this war is anything but conventional. I don't condone some of the torture methods they used (****** conduct), but crying over placing panties on a prisoners heads, gimme a break. Those same prisoners did much worse under Saddams regime.


the US went to Iraq to stop saddam from torturing prisoners. So don't justify their acts, by saying saddam did worst. If they are all convicted fellons, then why are they releasing by the hundreds every week?


American Patriot do you have a problem with muslims?

[RomanS]

LETS COMPARE


http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abughraib1.jpg
http://www.september-11th.us/9-11.gif



http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/new-toture3.jpg
http://www.dsscomputer.com/911/images/9-11-i.jpg



http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/new-toture2.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg.reax/story.berg.video.5.ap.jpg


http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dogs2.jpg
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/images/pentagon/wtc-vehicles.jpg


http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abuse3.jpg
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/images/pentagon/ny-wtcsite.jpg


THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN
http://home.planet.nl/~elder180/images/onzin/9-11-burqua.jpg

[Macs.]

PermskiiOMON, wheres the connection between Iraqi criminals and the 11th September ?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

PermskiiOMON, wheres the connection between Iraqi criminals and the 11th September ?

None

Ok first of all these guys in the prision may or may-not have been participating in the fighting against the coalition. I cannot speak for them, as I am not them. But, I can certainly say after stripping my naked covering me in **** and making me walk in a straight line with my ankles cuffed together would obvioulsy make me reconsider being friendly with the coalition...wouldnt you?

So budanski, your saying all of the prisioners at the prision deserved this (not all were terrorists as you may think)? So everyone that the Coalition arrests must be guilty until proven innocent...ah...bringing freedom one prisoner at a time... :cantbeli:

[Secret Squirrel]

PermskiiOMON, wheres the connection between Iraqi criminals and the 11th September ?

Here's the link...

http://img77.photobucket.com/albums/v233/SSSquirrel/TMW2-19-03Saddam.gif

[Flagg]

Those who make war on civilians are NOT soldiers and are not deserving of the Geneva Convention protections.

I can see the Geneva Conventions being used in a conventional war, but this war is anything but conventional. I don't condone some of the torture methods they used (****** conduct), but crying over placing panties on a prisoners heads, gimme a break. Those same prisoners did much worse under Saddams regime.

Not picking on you Budanski.....but I thought your quote would best help make my point:

Just because behavior at the prison was "less wrong" than what would have occurred under Saddam's regime neither makes it right....nor is it a justifiable excuse for the bahavior displayed.

Permskii's display of a photo comparison is, in my opinion, counterproductive......as it attempts to provide justification for inappropriate behavior by using feelings of patriotism, nationalism, and vengeance as the rationale for doing so. It's just as short-sighted and simple-minded as the inappropriate behavior displayed by the prison guards.

Speaking of counterproductive, it will not take you much time to research the topic of intelligence related interrogations.

You'll find that inappropriate treatment can result in poor intelligence collection results(the detainees will tell you whatever the hell you want to hear rather than the truth) in the short-term and long-term degradation in local(meaning Iraqi civilian population) support.

If the primary reason for the mistreatment was to develop intelligence assets/agents(meaning humiliate them and threaten to blackmail them by publicly humiliating them unless they cooperate in future intel collection operations) I reckon blackmail is the least productive method for developing assets.......personal grudges and personal gain are likely to be more effective long-term motivators.

We WILL win because we ARE the good guys.....but that makes the job more difficult because wearing the white hat means having to follow the rules....and by simply cutting too many corners...the bad guys win without firing a shot.

I do not think ALL of the treatment was inappropriate, having been involved in POW handling exercise from BOTH sides I fully realise how important it is to totally dominate detainees to eliminate the physical risk for the detainers.....but intentionally humiliating and degrading people is at best wasting an intelligence collection/exploitation oportunity and at worst soothing the egos of individuals "getting some payback for 9/11" who are too simple-minded to see the damage they have caused to the entire campaign effort.

[rokus2595]

I think the reason is very simple and easy to understand, and explains a lot about how the Iraqis view the Americans and the situation there. To understand the current situation, it is important to go back to its beginnings: When America invaded Iraq. It is also important to note that not only was the US breaking International law, but also its reason for doing so: solely to take control of its oil reserves. That is the view shared by the majority of Iraqis (e.g I'm occupied, degradaded, shot at, and my only natural reserves are being stolen), which explains the shooting at the Americans and anyone else working with them, and unless they are ALL UNDER SOME MASSIVE GENERAL DELUSION, is the truth.

The delusion is happening in the States, since the government MUST convince its population that its intentions in Iraq are noble so that it can justify its presence in Iraq. The reason obviously is that if the American people were to see it as the Iraqi people see it, chances are they would get just as upset as the iraqis and perhaps very promptly make the US government stop the occupation. Hence the delusion.

As to the US soldiers mistreating the Iraqis, well how else would you treat someone who wants you out? Either you listen, and then leave, or stay and put them down by force and intimidate them

[budanski]

So budanski, your saying all of the prisioners at the prision deserved this (not all were terrorists as you may think)? So everyone that the Coalition arrests must be guilty until proven innocent...ah...bringing freedom one prisoner at a time... :cantbeli:

Where abouts did I say they were all terrorists inside Abu Gharib? You seem to be "in the know" and all, seeing that your own country isnt even involved in. Tell me, how would you know which prisoners these were. The majority of the pictures were taken about the same time all these guys were being rounded up during the height of the insurgent attacks in Nov. Most likely terrorists and not your jay-walkers.

"Innocent until proven guilty" only applies during sentencing. Prisons are usually meant for the convicted.

[Flagg]

I think the reason is very simple and easy to understand, and explains a lot about how the Iraqis view the Americans and the situation there. To understand the current situation, it is important to go back to its beginnings: When America invaded Iraq. It is also important to note that not only was the US breaking International law, but also its reason for doing so: solely to take control of its oil reserves. That is the view shared by the majority of Iraqis (e.g I'm occupied, degradaded, shot at, and my only natural reserves are being stolen), which explains the shooting at the Americans and anyone else working with them, and unless they are ALL UNDER SOME MASSIVE GENERAL DELUSION, is the truth.

The delusion is happening in the States, since the government MUST convince its population that its intentions in Iraq are noble so that it can justify its presence in Iraq. The reason obviously is that if the American people were to see it as the Iraqi people see it, chances are they would get just as upset as the iraqis and perhaps very promptly make the US government stop the occupation. Hence the delusion.

As to the US soldiers mistreating the Iraqis, well how else would you treat someone who wants you out? Either you listen, and then leave, or stay and put them down by force and intimidate them

WARNING! WARNING! We have a thread hijack attempt! Install Bullsh!t filter! WARNING! WARNING!

[memphiz]

I still dont understand the whole reason why these prisoners are ****...no one wants to see that

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I still dont understand the whole reason why these prisoners are ****...no one wants to see that

Apparently US soldiers guarding the prision.


I never claimed to be "in the know".

Now lets begin (I wont bother ridiculing you or trying to flame because well..I have more of a life then that ;) )

You may or may not have forgotten that Saddam had all the criminals in Iraq set free just before the invasion, isnt it possible that these were some of the "left overs" that were rounded up? What about people arrested for looting during the "instable / looting" period after Iraq was liberated? Do you call those terrorists?

True the prision is setup as a "hi-security" (from my understanding feel free to correct me if im wrong), and would be used to house the most dangerous / violent offenders. I mean...if they were terrorists...how come they all got released my furry monkey buddy?

[budanski]

I still dont understand the whole reason why these prisoners are ****...no one wants to see that

Apparently US soldiers guarding the prision.


I never claimed to be "in the know".

Now lets begin (I wont bother ridiculing you or trying to flame because well..I have more of a life then that ;) )

You may or may not have forgotten that Saddam had all the criminals in Iraq set free just before the invasion, isnt it possible that these were some of the "left overs" that were rounded up? What about people arrested for looting during the "instable / looting" period after Iraq was liberated? Do you call those terrorists?

True the prision is setup as a "hi-security" (from my understanding feel free to correct me if im wrong), and would be used to house the most dangerous / violent offenders. I mean...if they were terrorists...how come they all got released my furry monkey buddy?
How are you sure the ones let go were the ones picked up for shooting at US troops and not the looters? More speculation without any proof.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Oh ya one more thing...


"Innocent until proven guilty" only applies during sentencing. Prisons are usually meant for the convicted.


So you released a bunch of "convicted" terrorists (which I havent heard of any trials yet happening in Iraq convicting people of terrorism), that were guilty?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I still dont understand the whole reason why these prisoners are ****...no one wants to see that

Apparently US soldiers guarding the prision.


I never claimed to be "in the know".

Now lets begin (I wont bother ridiculing you or trying to flame because well..I have more of a life then that ;) )

You may or may not have forgotten that Saddam had all the criminals in Iraq set free just before the invasion, isnt it possible that these were some of the "left overs" that were rounded up? What about people arrested for looting during the "instable / looting" period after Iraq was liberated? Do you call those terrorists?

True the prision is setup as a "hi-security" (from my understanding feel free to correct me if im wrong), and would be used to house the most dangerous / violent offenders. I mean...if they were terrorists...how come they all got released my furry monkey buddy?
How are you sure the ones let go were the ones picked up for shooting at US troops and not the looters? More speculation without any proof.

Just about the same way you are sure that they are all terrorists ;)

[homerjsimpson94]

Whats the big freakig deal?, this lucky bugger gets a sniff of some FINE western female panties! :lol:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abuse3.jpg

IMHO, there all savages anyway......

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Whats the big freakig deal?, this lucky bugger gets a sniff of some FINE western female panties! :lol:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abuse3.jpg

IMHO, there all savages anyway......

And what do they think of you? And you wonder why the Iraqi people didnt greet Americans with open arms and rose's, prime example. Attitudes need to change if things are going to change in Iraq, especially the attitudes of the soldiers / commanders / people like yourself. Iraqi's are people, they bleed , think , breathe like the rest of us. Unfortuneatly thats too hard of a concept for some to understand.

[budanski]

Just about the same way you are sure that they are all terrorists ;)


Abu Ghraib prisoners can't be described as helpless
Union Leader (http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=37953)

AS FORMER Abu Ghraib guard Spec. Jeremy Sivits pleaded guilty to four criminal counts of mistreatment of prisoners, it’s worth asking, who are the inmates seen in all those photographs?

While some blameless Iraqis may have been among the abused, the detainees in Cellblocks 1-A and 1-B — where these violations occurred — include suspected bombers and murderers. The Associated Press may have been a tad sentimental May 7 when it called them “helpless prisoners.”

These captives “are not held randomly. They are not held as hostages,” says Capt. Mark Doggett of the Australian army.

“These people are held because there is evidence that they are an imperative threat to the security of not just the Coalition, but the Iraqi people.” Doggett, a Coalition Forces press officer, spoke by phone from Baghdad’s Coalition Press Information Center. He stressed that high-value inmates in the American-run institution are not routine lawbreakers. Iraqi bicycle thieves are handled elsewhere.

“Common criminals are put through the Iraqi criminal system,” Doggett says. “Common criminals, as opposed to those who are involved in acts against the Coalition, go through the Iraqi prison system and Iraqi court system, which are quite separate from the Coalition detention operation.”

Abu Ghraib’s prisoners are lethal. While Doggett says he is “not at liberty” to name individuals behind bars nor detail why they are there, he speaks generally about why these people landed in cellblocks 1-A and 1-B. “That’s where those images were taken,” he explains, referring to the ubiquitous pictures of American military guards and their Iraqi captives.

“The most common things people are being detained for include attacking Coalition forces or the Iraqi people, likewise for financing attacks on forces or the Iraqi people,” Doggett says. “They could be involved in the planning of attacks. They could be involved in the manufacture of Improvised Explosive Devices. That could mean everything from procuring the necessary materials for explosive devices, through to actually manufacturing the devices, to planting them.”

Asked about the allegations against the worst suspects in 1-A and 1-B, Doggett says, “We wouldn’t be able to give specifics, but we can tell you that we have people in custody who have been involved in killing Americans and others from the Coalition forces. I really cannot think of a worse crime than that: murder.”

Doggett challenges the notion that average Iraqis stumbled into Abu Ghraib. “The perception that innocent Iraqis are being rounded up in large numbers is simply false,” he says. “The Coalition always conducts targeted raids based on sound intelligence.”

A confidential Red Cross report on Abu Ghraib somewhat disputes this claim. As excerpted in the May 7 Wall Street Journal, the Red Cross believes that “between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.” Still, most of them appear to have been treated correctly, and many soon were released. At Abu Ghraib in particular, the Red Cross’ findings seem to confirm Doggett’s description of the facility. As the humanitarian group states, “ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with regard to persons arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have ‘intelligence’ value.”

Abu Ghraib is not populated only by Iraqis. “Out of the 7,800 or so inmates we have, I can confirm that we have an indeterminate number of foreign fighters in captivity,” says U.S. Army Capt. Patrick Swan, a Coalition spokesman in Baghdad. Doggett was a bit more specific.

“There are about 120 foreign fighters in the whole (detention) system, the bulk of them at Abu Ghraib.” Recall, these are jihadists who traveled to Iraq from elsewhere to unleash deadly violence against Americans, U.S. allies and Iraqi civilians alike. For legal and intelligence reasons, Doggett and Swan declined to state whether these intruders include al-Qaida operatives.

Despite the global media inferno that has raged since CBS’ “60 Minutes II” first broadcast the Abu Ghraib photos on April 28, the international press has been remarkably incurious about the identities of the prisoners in those pictures and their reasons for incarceration.

Has Capt. Mark Doggett spoken with other journalists along these lines? He tells me: “You are the sole person who has asked these questions.”

New York commentator Deroy Murdock is a media fellow with the Hoover Institute at Stanford University. This column is adapted from a piece he wrote for National Review Online (nationalreview.com), where he is a contributing editor.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

hmmmm nice article budanski...too bad it contradicts what your saying


include suspected bombers and murderers

No trail? So these guys were held there for there "saftey of the Iraqi people" and yet they were abused and humiliated?


“These people are held because there is evidence that they are an imperative threat to the security of not just the Coalition, but the Iraqi people.”


They could be involved in the planning of attacks. They could be involved in the manufacture of Improvised Explosive Devices. That could mean everything from procuring the necessary materials for explosive devices, through to actually manufacturing the devices, to planting them.”



Anyone "could" be planning attacks. Its wether they "did" plan attacks / carry out attacks or help that counts not "what if's"


“Out of the 7,800 or so inmates we have, I can confirm that we have an indeterminate number of foreign fighters in captivity,”


Definition of "indeterminate"


in·de·ter·mi·nate ( P ) ****unciation Key (nd-tûrm-nt)
adj.

Not precisely determined, determinable, or established: a person of indeterminate age.
Not precisely fixed, as to extent, size, nature, or number: an indeterminate number of plant species in the jungle.
Lacking clarity or precision, as in meaning; vague: an indeterminate turn of phrase.
Not fixed or known in advance: an indeterminate future.
Not leading up to a definite result or ending: an indeterminate campaign.


So pretty much out of the 7,800 inmates they still arnt sure who's Iraqi and who's not. They say "120" but out of 7,800 inmates I find the number should be a lil higher as most fanaticals come from other countries to wage "jihad" on american soldiers.

[homerjsimpson94]

Whats the big freakig deal?, this lucky bugger gets a sniff of some FINE western female panties! :lol:
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abuse3.jpg

IMHO, there all savages anyway......

And what do they think of you? And you wonder why the Iraqi people didnt greet Americans with open arms and rose's, prime example. Attitudes need to change if things are going to change in Iraq, especially the attitudes of the soldiers / commanders / people like yourself. Iraqi's are people, they bleed , think , breathe like the rest of us. Unfortuneatly thats too hard of a concept for some to understand.

:lol: yer soo naive....

[scrybe]

I can't say that I really feel sorry for the prisoners themselves, but I do regret the negative outlook this scandal has given and the embarrassment/danger it is directing towards all of our soldiers currently serving over there.

[DPGLAW]

I feel that the media has blown these "abuse" (I use that term loosely as I don't think this was abuse in any way, shape, or form) photos and resulting scandal way, way out of proportion. I think that we should be using methods of torture more often. I have read several articles and books which convey the point that these islamic extremists don't care about being caught by the US or Britan because they know that they will be comfortable and have 3 meals a day and no one will hurt them. They will be relatively comfortable. On the other hand, the prisoners are terrified to be sent to some of our allies such as Egypt or Jordan. They are so afraid because these intelligence services use coercive and physical methods of interrogation if necessary.

I think if we started to use violence and other very stressful psychological methods to break these people as human beings, the word would get out among these extremist ragheads and anyone else that might do harm to the US or our allies that if they catch you- you will not be in good shape. You will be in pain and they will use violence if necessary to get what they want from you. I think that this will serve as a deterrent to others, this is evident during Enduring Freedom, I can remember hearing on the news and in reading several of the new books about the campagain- they stated that the captured terrorists we terrified if they were told they were going to Egypt or Jordan, etc.

We (the US) need to not only give the impression, but follow through on threats of violence twords these prisoners so that we scare the fear of god into them based on what our military is willing and capable of doing to them. When they are caught and told the US will be interrogating them we need to have them pleasding not to go to the US.

I know this is not the ideals our country is based on but recent events and the way things are in the world dictate that we cannot "do business" in the military or intelligence sense, the same way anymore. We need to be ruthless just as they are- then I THINK that MABYE things would be different. Just my .02 cents

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

yer soo naive....

I am?
Well tell me this then, how can you expect a people to feel liberated when the people who "liberated" quite frankly couldnt care less about them ? (let alone treat them with respect)

Majority of the Americans that posted in this thread have had the opinion of roughly "who cares", well you know who cares. Joe soldier wearing the US flag on his shoulder sitting in Iraq. **** like this only hurts them and comes back on them, I mean its nothing you have to worry about after all...its easy to say it when your not there. But believe me more American soldiers will die because of events like this happening, its sad but its true.

Like I said alot of attitudes have to change...

[ibstolidude]

The same that claimed moral highground, now dismisses torture as pranks. That's the hypocrisy I'm talking about. The news didn't shock me at all, it saddened me that my prejudice was being confirmed.
- are you ignorant? I do not mean to offend; I mean ignorant in it's truest definition.

Do you really equate the ramblings of internet wacknuts with the US population and the vast majority of political leadership? Please enlighten me to where
The same that claimed moral highground, now dismisses torture as pranks.

[fdt]

They dont even claim that the prisoners are illegal combatants

the letter to the ICRC stated that they were being afforded PW status under GC III, even where status was yet to be determined, otherwise they were civilian detainess under GC IV. They come up with some "absolute military security " crap excuse for smacking them around.

of course in every good lie there is a grain of truth - this "absolute military security" is mentioned in GC IV, but only to negate the prisoners right to communicate withthe outside if they are found to be spies or saboteurs. The US is writing International Law on the run again......Vast majorirty of International Law experts (including the war law, humanitarian law and particulkarly 3 rd Geneve convention experts) AGREE that US is in breach of the international conventions it has signed. To be clear... IT IS NOT ABOUT illegal denying the lawful/unlawful combatant status... BUT NEGLECTING THE COURT CONTROL OVER THIS STATUS. Now ... after 2,5 years of keeping those people (Guantanamo prisoners) in custody there are held FIRST court trials of this status. As they should held those trials immediately (according to the conventions) US have waited for so long (30 months) ... In this case the legal procedures TIMING is widely considered as the breach.

[Sergei]

they probably are avenging their friends, killed by suicide bombers, or people with AK's firing from whithin crowds.

i'd guess a few of these were actually captured during some of these events, thereby the anger.

nevertheless, they're just proving that they're no better than the iraqis.
i'm not saying worse, just not better.

btw, anyone remember the prisons in russia, during soviet times?
remember how terrible that was? prisoners just disappearing, getting tortured, beaten etc.
remember how americans imagined that their country would never be able to do something as "horrific" as that?

Since you are being and "expert" of Soviet prisons why don't you tell us a few things of your own? :bash:
Look in your own backyard and see how the average Joe Shmoe is treated in the local US prison next to you. Or you just close your eyes and deny the same things happen in US as well?

[fdt]

they probably are avenging their friends, killed by suicide bombers, or people with AK's firing from whithin crowds.

i'd guess a few of these were actually captured during some of these events, thereby the anger.

nevertheless, they're just proving that they're no better than the iraqis.
i'm not saying worse, just not better.

btw, anyone remember the prisons in russia, during soviet times?
remember how terrible that was? prisoners just disappearing, getting tortured, beaten etc.
remember how americans imagined that their country would never be able to do something as "horrific" as that?

Since you are being and "expert" of Soviet prisons why don't you tell us a few things of your own? :bash:
Look in your own backyard and see how the average Joe Shmoe is treated in the local US prison next to you. Or you just close your eyes and deny the same things happen in US as well?Comparing the Soviet judicial/prison system to US judicial/prison system...? C'mon You can't be serious... Pls read some Bukovski's books... Even today's US system is uncomparable to the Soviet era GULAG/Law (???) structure...

[OB Kenobi]

I can't say that I really feel sorry for the prisoners themselves, but I do regret the negative outlook this scandal has given and the embarrassment/danger it is directing towards all of our soldiers currently serving over there.

Did you feel sorry for Nick Berg when they cut his head off as revenge for Abu Ghraib?

Some of you still just don't get it.

Pretty easy to be a tough guy here, but everytime some fool says "bring it on" Americans are going to get killed. Every time you abuse someone in another country, it creates hatred towards America.

[Sabre]

If the people at abu gharib were petty criminals, then yes, it was stupid to do what happened there.
If they were un-uniformed combatants and/or terrorists, do with them as pleased.

I am for teaching and schooling the younger muslim people. However, those that are a lost cause, kill them. Then, feed their remains to pigs.

Bloody hell. What if they were at the wrong place at the wrong time? Innocent til proven guilty? Hell, even if they were 'guilty' they don't deserve this. Even if you think they do, professionalism comes into the equation. Look what damage these abuse stories have done. Simple really, be professional, don't abuse prisoners, don't get the fallout.

I find it incomprehensible that members of a unit who's sole responsibility is to guard these prisoners, who's sum-total of training was to that effect, could do something like this.

It's like the Royal Marines deciding not to attack the indended target, because it would be far too dangerous and might involve some effort so instead they decide to go to a nearby village and rape local girls and beat up their grandparents.

It's a complete failure of professionalism. These 'soldiers' are sick, twisted, pathetic examples pondscum and a waste of organs. If I was in Abu Ghraib, believe me, it wouldn't be the prisoners I'd be giving the good news to with a 2x4, it would be these f*ckers.

There should be some SERIOUS investigations into the culture/training within this unit and those found to be similar in nature should be dishonourably discharged. Either way, the CO and training staff should be candidates for DD.

My mate was in OP Telic with his TA infantry unit. Their role was PoW handling and detainment. Prior to being informed of this tasking, they had no PoW training at all. However, they are adaptable and were soon proficient in this new role, no inidents occured and they have since come home with only credit to their names.

So how can their be this disparity? Two reserve units, both mobilised to do the same task. One with years of experience in PoW handling, one with a few weeks of it. But the most experienced unit fails completely in its task and breaks the Geneva Convention. Smacks somwhat of the quality (or lack thereof) of the average US reserve soldier.

[mi35d]

Blow it out your ass, "mate".

The Reserve soldiers in question (US) were NOT trained in how to run a prison. To suggest otherwise is foolish on your part. Yes, they were a Military Police unit but their training did not extend to the duties they were assigned.

In typical Brit fashion you must prove your superiority over the "colonials" by denegrating the entire US Reserve Force because of the idiocy of 12 malcontents. I'm sure ALL the of prisoners under Brit control were given a gentle pat on the back and told to que up nicely for their afternoon tea. Not a bruise or scratch on their "helpless", "innocent" bodies.

Trained or not, illegal actions occur. In EVERY army around the world. Maybe this would be a good time to mention the quality care the Boer's were given under their British prison guards. Or maybe the angelic guards in various Indian prisons during the realm's time there. Ahhh, history! Such a beautiful thing.

[benny5405]

Angel face , but Evil heart

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abughraib3.jpg :fork:

[5jumpchump]

Iraqis tourtue , kill, burn , and hang bodies from a bridge and it's headline news for a week . US soldiers use psyops , stress positions and embarrassing poses and it's headline news for 4 months in a row .
Perhaps we should start burning and hanging bodies from bridges to get this over with a little quicker :|

[Raistlin]

Angel face , but Evil heart

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abughraib3.jpg
I have to admit, this is a very good picture of her.

I wonder if this is the same girl:

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/abuse1.jpg

[American Patriot]

I can't say that I really feel sorry for the prisoners themselves, but I do regret the negative outlook this scandal has given and the embarrassment/danger it is directing towards all of our soldiers currently serving over there.

Did you feel sorry for Nick Berg when they cut his head off as revenge for Abu Ghraib?

Some of you still just don't get it.

Pretty easy to be a tough guy here, but everytime some fool says "bring it on" Americans are going to get killed. Every time you abuse someone in another country, it creates hatred towards America.

Are you the same idiot OB Kenobi that posts on ******.com?

[usa320]

Had i been there i woulda just bashed the mutha****ers with a tire iron.

These guys arent innocent. THey are killers, rapists and criminals. I think the ****** abuse is wrong...but the dogs, the loud music, ect...all fair game IMHO... Getting these guys to talk could save lives.

I dont see what is so bad about threatening criminals with dogs, they do it all the time here in the US.

I much rather be bit by the dog that shot by the cop.

[RomanS]

Had i been there i woulda just bashed the f*** with a tire iron.

These guys arent innocent. THey are killers, rapists and criminals. I think the ****** abuse is wrong...but the dogs, the loud music, ect...all fair game IMHO... Getting these guys to talk could save lives.

I dont see what is so bad about threatening criminals with dogs, they do it all the time here in the US.

I much rather be bit by the dog that shot by the cop.

W O R D

but remember

you are trying to explain this to Europeans.

[Secret Squirrel]

Had i been there i woulda just bashed the f*** with a tire iron.

These guys arent innocent. THey are killers, rapists and criminals. I think the ****** abuse is wrong...but the dogs, the loud music, ect...all fair game IMHO... Getting these guys to talk could save lives.

I dont see what is so bad about threatening criminals with dogs, they do it all the time here in the US.

I much rather be bit by the dog that shot by the cop.

up **** river without a paddle again? :cantbeli:

[Chuck6d]

This thread is getting old like the NY Times

Was it wrong.?.......yes
Are people going to pay for the crimes?......yes

The story ran in the Army Times months before it ran on 60 mins.
But no pictures. So it's not like it'sbreaking news if the Media had did their homework.

Thank god this generation wasn't around during WW2. We'd be in trouble.

[M1A2U2]

Just because behavior at the prison was "less wrong" than what would have occurred under Saddam's regime neither makes it right....nor is it a justifiable excuse for the bahavior displayed.

Yes but what you fail to realize is that the things the americans did does not compare to waht some other regimes have done yet the americans are recieving more attention. Its fine if they wanna talk about this for 2 years but then they better talk about the videos of saddams torture chambers for 20 years. theres a good documentary that compares teh two. its called buried in the sand.

[Wilco]

These people make the United States Military look horrible, enough said.

Let them be punished and whatnot, yet there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are fighting overseas and have nothing to do with this, but it makes them look bad because they are a part of the same fighting force.

[Ameen]

I dont know why u ressurected this topic from june, but anyways, those pictures make me sick everytime i see them. no further commment.

[Sayeret]

Yeah, the US should get advice from someone from Portugal, the same Portugal that killed and tortured thousands in The Inquisition.

[TriggerPuller]

Yeah, the US should get advice from someone from Portugal, the same Portugal that killed and tortured thousands in The Inquisition.Good point! This is old news and another attempt at American bashing! The actions of a few in no way reflect on the professionalism of the US Military...but you Aholes have your own narrow minded agenda and would never see it that way!!

TP

[EffJi]

Sure, they only abuse the prisoners because they are terrorists scum.

Sure, they only behead the hostages because prisoners are being abused.


Just a quick FYI: the beheadings went on before the news about the prisoner abuse went public.
And islamistic extremists have been chopping off heads long before that building was ever built.

[Gameholic]

Abu Ghraib Prison


I'am suppose to feel sorry for these scumbags?
Of course not...we should all go there and have a good kicking ourselves..... :cantbeli:

I don't see military personnel having "revenge" because of fallen comrades or the 11th September....they're having a bit of sadistic fun just because they can.....
:bash:

Old news dude..

They got what they deserve :-*$

[henksmoeder]

Yeah, the US should get advice from someone from Portugal, the same Portugal that killed and tortured thousands in The Inquisition.

cough*fallacy of false analogy*cough

[hood]

Stuff like this makes me want to fire up the pruning engine that gets rid of old dead topics. These people have already been sentenced.. what's the point of bringing it up again? Perhaps the photos of inmates found in Fallujah in makeshift jail cells that have conditions that were far worse than in Abu Graib should be posted here instead.