Germany, Israel sign $50 million APC deal

[alexjulian]

Germany, Israel sign $50 million APC deal

By Amnon Barzilai

Tue., June 15, 2004

Germany is to sell Israel 100 armored personnel carriers in a $50 million deal to equip IDF armored brigades, and Israel will sell $50 million worth of mounted cannon for Romanian Army trucks, it was revealed yesterday at the Eurosatory arms exhibition north of Paris.





To enable Israel to use U.S. military aid for the purchase of the Dingo APCs from Germany, the Germans will put up a manufacturing line for the APCs in New Orleans in a joint venture with Texatron.

The Dingo will replace Hummers in the IDF.

French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie visited the Israeli pavilion yesterday and was greeted by Defense Ministry director general Amos Yaron and Israeli Ambassador Nissim Zvilli. Although it was a brief visit, Israeli sources said it was a sign of friendship and closer ties between the two countries defense ministries.

They are due to sign a weapons deals worth $150-$200 million this week, the largest such deal between the two since before the French weapons embargo imposed on the Middle East after the 1967 Six-Day war.

[Kitsune]

To enable Israel to use U.S. military aid for the purchase of the Dingo APCs from Germany, the Germans will put up a manufacturing line for the APCs in New Orleans in a joint venture with Texatron.


That seems to be somewhat typical. As I recall, the engine of the Merkava 3 is actually a German engine made by MTU (the only non israeli made component of the tank of any notice, I think). As I remember it, its parts are made by MTU in Germany and then shipped to the US, where they are assembled by General Dynamics Land Systems. Then the engines are shipped to Israel, to be integrated into the Merkava Mk 3 tank.
Probably they use UPS. :lol:

[Moledet]

To enable Israel to use U.S. military aid for the purchase of the Dingo APCs from Germany, the Germans will put up a manufacturing line for the APCs in New Orleans in a joint venture with Texatron.


That seems to be somewhat typical. As I recall, the engine of the Merkava 3 is actually a German engine made by MTU (the only non israeli made component of the tank of any notice, I think). As I remember it, its parts are made by MTU in Germany and then shipped to the US, where they are assembled by General Dynamics Land Systems. Then the engines are shipped to Israel, to be integrated into the Merkava Mk 3 tank.
Probably they use UPS. :lol:
Yeah, we always do this. Even IMI was asked to produce their gun (Tavor) in US so Israel will be able to use the american aid money. I can't see what's wrong with that, it donates a lot of jobs to the american economy.

[He219]

I also believe the new Merkavas also use a RENK transmission, Kitsune.

US military aid to Israel logically demands domestic economic returns. The Germans sell more designs financed by the US taxpayer and they get shipped here for assembly or production. Not a novel concept at all.

Assembling plants worldwide are no new thing. Remember that Volksvagen assembles cars in Mexico to get around high German labor costs. Mercedes manufactures the ML in Georgia and ships them to Europe.

[Kitsune]

Actually I did only comment on this as something peculiar, just because it came to my mind. Because, you know, if you transport something from Germany to Israel, the US is not exactly on the way (and it isn't a typical "assembly" country either, like China).
But I did not mean to criticise it or something. Its probably the smallest problem this planet has. ;)

[UoUo]

Any of you have info about thise APC's ?

What type? and if you can, bring some pic's. :D

[Kitsune]

The "Dingo" is actually not an APC, Uouo. It is an lightly armored vehicle, weight is 8,86 tons and its just armed with one 7,62mm MG (In Germany an MG3, but the Israelis will use something of their stuff, I think.) As you can see from the text it replaces the Hummvee, which isn't an APC either. The advantages of the Dingo are better protection against small arms fire and some smaller mines, reliability, and high cost efficiency.
Pictures: (be warned the thing is butt ugly :( ):

http://www.bwb.org/C1256DF2004FF94C/CurrentBaseLink/N25VZGVL935INFODE


http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_atf_dingo.htm

[UoUo]

Thank you very much..but i can't see the advantage of such vehicle...i mean the Hummvee do peretty good hob...and they are good as welll...

While our army sick to APC with heavy protection...why do we buy Light armored vehicle?

Hm...maybe to replace the old Sufa?

[IDFM203]

Well I personally would go for the Israeli built.........

Wolf (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/wolf/wolf.htm)
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/wolf/wolf_3.jpg

or even the RAM-2000 (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/ram-2000/RAM-2000.htm)
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/ram-2000/ram-2000_2.jpg

But hey thats just me ;)

Though yes I understand our budgetary options in the reason why the germen vehicle is chosen.

Oh well……… :roll: ;)


Shalom :D

[Operation Ivy]

Man thats an ugly machine, but if it works well thats all that matters :D

[Kitsune]

The RAM 2000 seems to be a bit too small for a transporter. But this "Wolf" looks comparable to the Dingo. So, it beats me why you don't use this one. But since some Israelis decided that you should be in a better position to answer that question, than me, IDFM203. ;)

[Javehn]

The RAM 2000 seems to be a bit too small for a transporter. But this "Wolf" looks comparable to the Dingo. So, it beats me why you don't use this one. But since some Israelis decided that you should be in a better position to answer that question, than me, IDFM203. ;)

It was the US aid money and US congress that gave the answer ... :| ;)

[IDFM203]

The RAM 2000 seems to be a bit too small for a transporter. But this "Wolf" looks comparable to the Dingo. So, it beats me why you don't use this one. But since some Israelis decided that you should be in a better position to answer that question, than me, IDFM203. ;)I already answered why it was chosen, it boils down to one word...money ;)

Its a lot cheaper to use money from the standard 2 plus billion we get in aid then to have to pay for it ourselves on our own products (one of the many reasons why I think we should stop receiving this aid....but that too is only me ;) )

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Kitsune,

btw why do you say the RAM 2000 is too small, I thought this whole deal was to replace the hummer, well I believe the RAM can hold as many troops as the hummer can.

Also speaking of replacements for the hummer, let me added the newer and better protected Israeli made and modified Up Armored HUMVEE (http://www.defense-update.com/products/h/hummer-plasan.htm)
http://www.defense-update.com/images/hummer-plasan.jpg

but again, the lure of the easy aid money is too blinding to some of our generals that make our procurement decisions :roll:

Shalom :D

[Nite]

Well I personally would go for the Israeli built.........

Wolf (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/wolf/wolf.htm)
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/wolf/wolf_3.jpg

or even the RAM-2000 (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/ram-2000/RAM-2000.htm)
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/light_combat_vehicles/ram-2000/ram-2000_2.jpg

But hey thats just me ;)

Though yes I understand our budgetary options in the reason why the germen vehicle is chosen.

Oh well……… :roll: ;)


Shalom :D
What about Mine-protection?
The Dingo was specifically designed to withstand Mines (V-shaped armor on the bottom of the vehicle)

[UoUo]

Hm...the pal' even do no use mines....just home made munes..with some Thing like 50k and more...that no Armorend car can deal with that.

[big80a2]

well the wolf has also a possibility of deployment as that is statet at the defense Update.

anyway Jpost also statet the stryker is coming in and will be updated to israeli style with extra armor.

so think the dingo will be redesined.
something tells me the wolf looks a bit dingo based.

anybody know on withs vehicle it is based?

[Kitsune]

Guys, I think I found the solution. p-)

You just take the RAM-2000 and the Wolf apart, send those parts to the US, have them re-assembled there, and ship them back to Israel. That way you can pay your own cars with the US military help. ;)

Neat, isn't it? Can someone inform IDF?

:D

[He219]

:lol:
Good one, Kitsune!

[Moledet]

Guys, I think I found the solution. p-)

You just take the RAM-2000 and the Wolf apart, send those parts to the US, have them re-assembled there, and ship them back to Israel. That way you can pay your own cars with the US military help. ;)

Neat, isn't it? Can someone inform IDF?

:D
I think that Israel already used all it funds when it bought 102 F16I Jet fighters, or maybe it got extra funds in 2004? I find this report very strange because I don't think that Israel has any more funds to sepnd.

P.S. You can laugh but we get the best equipment without paying, so we can't care less about you laughing.

[UoUo]

I don't think we are paying the 102 F-16I in 1 year....

[IDFM203]

I think that Israel already used all it funds when it bought 102 F16I Jet fighters, or maybe it got extra funds in 2004? I find this report very strange because I don't think that Israel has any more funds to sepnd.
I don’t think that’s true, for the F16 deal is not paid in one sum and there is a certain amount allocated from the yearly 3b that we get.

So I believe there is money from that 3b each year that is not spent on that F16 deal.



P.S. You can laugh but we get the best equipment without paying, so we can't care less about you laughing. I disagree, for understand nothing is ever free.

We "pay" for it in many ways not least of which is the huge detriment to our own arms industry, which suffers greatly from our paying the high prices to only American made products that we most spend that money on.

Shalom :D

[Kampfbaer]

If my memory is right, the Dingo is based on the Mercedes Benz UNIMOG Truck that serves in Armies all over the world for decades.

I think there aren´t many wheeled vehicles in the world that can beat an Unimog in reliability and off road capability.

Didn´t the Americans experience large numbers of Humvees inoperable in Iraq due to technical breakdowns?

[martinexsquaddie]

cool so that means surplus IDf humvees :lol:
cool I CAN GET A LUDICROUS 4x4 to even piss off land cruiser drivers and chris eubank with his stupid semi rofl .
And extra brownie points give student's who went to the west bank on fact finding tours? post flahbacks now where did i leave my m16 and sunglasses rofl

[Sayeret]

UoUo wrote:

Hm...the pal' even do no use mines....just home made munes..with some Thing like 50k and more...that no Armorend car can deal with that.

The Palestinians have used mines in the past very suicide bombers. The IDF closed off the areas they got the mines from but I'm pretty sure they still have some.

[Javehn]

Guys, I think I found the solution. p-)

You just take the RAM-2000 and the Wolf apart, send those parts to the US, have them re-assembled there, and ship them back to Israel. That way you can pay your own cars with the US military help. ;)

Neat, isn't it? Can someone inform IDF?

:D

We allready doing this for more things you can imagine ;) . Sometimes this money help cost us back ... :roll: .
We will replace with it the "Abir" (Palladin) , and Armored "Abir" cars , they are getting outdated .

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/photodir.php?photofile=Army/Abir/409_.JPG

[big80a2]

anybody know on withs vehicle it is based?

hehe found it, it's based on an Ford F-550

@Javhen,

didn't know the abir was that outdated... seen older things going around in IDF ;)

you know anything about the Wolf coming into IDF or something about an upgrade for the Dingo?

thanks,