Macedonia files legal proceedings against Greece at International Court of Justice

[Zarkus]

Macedonia files legal proceedings against Greece at International Court of Justice

Skopje, November 17 (MIA) - The Republic of Macedonia has filed legal proceedings at the International Court of Justice in The Hague against Greece. Macedonia has filed an Application with the Registrar of the Court to bring Greece into compliance with its legal obligations under the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995, which binds the two countries., the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said Monday in a press release.

Article 11 of the 1995 Accord obliges Greece not to object to Macedonia's application to join NATO. At the NATO Summit held in Bucharest in April 2008, however, Greece objected to extending NATO membership invitation to Macedonia, thus flagrantly violating its obligations under the Interim Accord.

Antonio Milososki, Foreign Minister and Macedonia's representative before ICJ, says that protection of Macedonian rights under the Interim Agreement is the only reason for filing the Application.

- We have given a lot of thought before initiating this case, but we see no other way for justice to be done and our rights to be protected. We hope this action might encourage Greece to bring its actions into compliance with its international legal obligations, and that it might also encourage our two countries to reach a final settlement on outstanding issues in the spirit of good-neighborliness and cooperation envisaged by the Interim Accord, Milososki said.

He expressed belief that ICJ would help in settling this legal dispute, considering its just and prompt actions.

- We are not asking the Court to deal with other political issues, so that the dispute over the name is not the subject of our Application. We also want to stress that we remain strongly committed to all aspects of the Interim Accord, in particular to the process of negotiations with Greece, mediated by the Special Envoy of the UN Secretary General, Milososki said.

The Application requests the International Court of Justice to adjudge and declare that (Greece), through its State organs and agents, has violated its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1 of the Interim Accord; to order that (Greece) immediately take all necessary steps to comply with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1 of the Interim Accord, and to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to (Macedonia's) NATO membership and/or any other 'international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions' of which (Greece) is a member, in circumstances where (Macedonia) is to be referred to in such organizations or institutions by the designation provided for in paragraph 2 of United Nations Security Council Resolution 817 (1993).

ICJ is the primary judicial organ of the United Nations.Established in 1945 by the UN Charter, the Court began work in 1946 as the successor to the Permanent Court of International Justice.

The Court's workload is characterized by a wide range of judicial activity. Its main functions are to settle legal disputes submitted to it by member states and to give advisory opinions on legal questions submitted to it by duly authorized international organs, agencies and the UN General Assembly. /lk/fd/16:36

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59166216&lId=2

About time.

[Vorian]

Article 7

1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.

3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.

FYROM violated the agreement first. Now they can go cry to ICJ and ridicule themselves further.

[LineDoggie]

And welcome to another week of "Manson Family Chronicles"

Tonights Episode:

Balkans Pissing Match

and it looks like their lined up and ready to go Jim.....:roll:

[Vorian]

And welcome to another week of "Manson Family Chronicles"

Tonights Episode:

Balkans Pissing Match

and it looks like their lined up and ready to go Jim.....:roll:

Thanks for contributing in an intelligent and productive way to this thread.

[Mordoror]

FYROM violated the agreement first. Now they can go cry to ICJ and ridicule themselves further.whoever violated it first will be still debated for decades as it was since 1995 (and of course the answer will differe from what side of the border you are positionned)

so let it go to the ICJ once for all and have a external and non implicated overview and a bit of start of answer
whatever is the ICJ advice, i just hope it will make the things advance
because that status quo made of little pikes from one side to the other from time to time and months after months is in the end

* boring
* childish
* unuseful
* unworthy
and i mean it for both sides

[Vorian]

We will see after ICJ then

[Mordoror]

We will see after ICJ then


Yep

But don't misunderstand me.
What ever is the sentence of the ICJ there will be an unhappy side
I just hope that what ever is the sentence, it will have enough weight to influence the lossing side to be more conciliatory than before

[Ordie]

Anyone bring the popcorn?

[Peris]

from a gun enthusiast's legal point of view i see Greece standing in court toting a 50cal and fyrom trying to draw a water gun:)


til know i believed that fyromian politicians are wrong but they are trying to serve their national interests as they perceive them .

Now i am starting to thing that Greek secret services are paying them.

[Amateur]

...
Article 11 of the 1995 Accord obliges Greece not to object to Macedonia's application to join NATO. At the NATO Summit held in Bucharest in April 2008, however, Greece objected to extending NATO membership invitation to Macedonia, thus flagrantly violating its obligations under the Interim Accord.
...
http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59166216&lId=2
About time.
Actually, it' s about time we got some facts straight here, and for starters, here (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html) is a link to the 1995 Interim Accord, so that everybody following this discussion knows what we 're talking about. Now:

- First of all, article 11 of the 1995 Interim Accord does not oblige Greece to accept FYROM, by the name "Macedonia" in any international organization. The article reads as follows:


Article 11
1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html).

Since the above resolution defines the name to be used by this country as "FYROM", Greece has every right to object to FYROM's entry in any international organization by any other name, as was the case with NATO (where FYROM wanted to enter as "Macedonia").

- Secondly, I doubt if there ever was an official Greek declaration or vote cast, actually vetoing FYROM's entry to NATO. When Greece presented its objections, many other countries like France, Italy and Spain agreed, and in the end the NATO summit of Bucharest decided that FYROM was not yet to be considered as a candidate. So it was not just the Greek reaction, it was a summit decision, which reads as follows:

20. We recognise the hard work and the commitment demonstrated by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 1 to NATO values and Alliance operations. We commend them for their efforts to build a multi ethnic society. Within the framework of the UN, many actors have worked hard to resolve the name issue, but the Alliance has noted with regret that these talks have not produced a successful outcome. Therefore we agreed that an invitation to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia will be extended as soon as a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue has been reached. We encourage the negotiations to be resumed without delay and expect them to be concluded as soon as possible.

http://www.summitbucharest.ro/en/doc_201.html


- Thirdly, if you really want to discuss violations of the Interim Accord, I would gladly point some of them out to you:



Article 6
1. The Party of the Second Part hereby solemnly declares that nothing in its Constitution (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html), and in particular in the Preamble (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html#Preamble) thereto or in Article 3 (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html#Art3) of the Constitution (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html), can or should be interpreted as constituting or will ever constitute the basis of any claim by the Party of the Second Part to any territory not within its existing borders.
Contrary to the above undertaking, the Skopje prime minister has been photographed while honoring a monument featuring Greek Macedonia as part of his state.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg


Article 7
1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.
Contrary to that commitment, the Skopje government has issued school books and maps featuring Greek Macedonia as part of their state:
http://www.youtube.com/v/eTUqfuTbk_s (http://www.youtube.com/v/eTUqfuTbk_s)

...which is the reason why the US Congress in 2007 adopted a resolution (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:hr356ih.txt.pdf) urging the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to stop hostile propaganda and find a mutually acceptable solution with Greece on the name issue
101 Members of the House of Representatives express the sense that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between the FYROM and Greece regarding "hostile activities or propaganda" and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for the FYROM. The resolution urges FYROM to retract its attempts to falsify history and claim Greece's heritage as its own. Examples mentioned in the resolution include the renaming of the country's main airport to "Alexander the Great", creating maps for school and military textbooks showing a "Greater Macedonia" that reaches well into Greece and Bulgaria and teaching school children that parts of Greece, including the Greek region of Macedonia, are rightfully part of the FYROM.

Furthermore, the FYROM government has allowed the Greek flag to be publicly desacrated for days in Skopje by putting a swastika in the place where the flag has a cross
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5017/dsc00095dd5.jpg

Now... is that behaviour consistent with the Interim Accord? I think not.

Throwing stones is a really really bad idea when you 're in a glass house...
Nothing more to say; See you in Court p-)

[chris450]

well i'd say that about sums it up :)

two things that should be pointed out ,again

1)As Amateur said,Greece didnt use veto formally during the last NATO summit,-we didnt have to- the prerequisite of a solution to the name issue was incorporated in the common statement

2)But in any case we reserve the right to block FYROM's entry to international organization if they try to use a name other than the one of paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html) as stated in article 11 of the interim accord ,ie FYROM

"however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of theUnited Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html)"

source (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html#11)

[KET]

Oh wow, first the Serbs with Kosovo and now FYROM with it's name issue. The ICJ must be really happy to waste time in this useless stuff.

[chris450]

Oh wow, first the Serbs with Kosovo and now FYROM with it's name issue. The ICJ must be really happy to waste time in this useless stuff.

well depends on the point of view..extremely important to us ,useless to you :)

this issue does have its Albanian implications though ,it concerns you guys toop-)

[achilles]

http://www.youtube.com/v/eTUqfuTbk_s (http://www.youtube.com/v/eTUqfuTbk_s)

The discomfort of the McDonian foreign minister in this interview just shows how disoriented and hypocritical they are. Walls in their schools depict a "greater Macedonia" which includes a large chunk of Greek turf. Walls in Greek schools do not. Thats a fact.

Good post Amateur you put everything into perspective.
See the McDonians in court allright! :lol:

[Zarkus]

The ICJ official Document.

The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia institutes proceedings against Greece
for a violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995


THE HAGUE, 17 November 2008. The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia today
instituted proceedings before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) against Greece for what it
describes as “a flagrant violation of its obligations under Article 11” of the Interim Accord signed
by the Parties on 13 September 1995.
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (hereafter referred to as “FYROM”) seeks “to
protect its rights under the Interim Accord and to ensure that it is allowed to exercise its rights as an
independent State acting in accordance with international law, including the right to pursue
membership of relevant international organisations”.
The Applicant contends that in accordance with Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim
Accord, Greece “has undertaken a binding obligation under international law ‘not to object to the
application by or the membership of [FYROM] in international, multilateral and regional
organizations and institutions of which [Greece] is a member: however [Greece] reserves the right
to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent [FYROM] is to be referred to in
such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security
Council resolution 817 (1993)’”, i.e. FYROM.
FYROM contends that the Hellenic Republic violated its rights under Article 11 by
objecting, in April 2008, to its application to join NATO. FYROM contends, in particular, that
Greece “veto[ed]” its application to join NATO because Greece desires “to resolve the difference
between the Parties concerning the constitutional name of the Applicant as an essential
precondition” for FYROM’s membership of NATO.
The Applicant argues that it has “met its obligations under the Interim Accord not to be
designated as a member of NATO with any designation other than ‘the former Yugoslav Republic
of Macedonia’” and it affirms that “the subject of this dispute does not concern ⎯ either directly or
indirectly ⎯ the difference [that has arisen between Greece and itself over its name]”.
FYROM requests the Court to order Greece to “immediately take all necessary steps to
comply with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1” and “to cease and desist from objecting
in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to the Applicant’s membership of the North Atlantic
Treaty Organisation and/or of any other ‘international, multilateral and regional organizations and
institutions’ of which [Greece] is a member . . .”.

As a basis for the jurisdiction of the Court, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
invokes Article 21, paragraph 2, of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 which provides that
“[a]ny difference or dispute that arises between the Parties concerning the interpretation of
implementation of this Interim Accord may be submitted by either of them to the International
Court of Justice, except for the differences referred to in Article 5, paragraph 1”.

___________

The full text of The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s Application will be available
shortly on the Court’s website (www.icj-cij.org).

[Mordoror]

the McDonians

Achilles, i know that it is your way of talking but that is a little insulting
could you refrain please, thanks

because that is a bit borderline (i guess you won't be happy if a call you Moussaka or anything harsher that can come to mind especially the jokes we have in France concerning greeks's ******ity p-)) and a clear flame bait for any less zen (than me :-)) of your northern neighboors

[achilles]

Achilles, i know that it is your way of talking but that is a little insulting
could you refrain please, thanks

because that is a bit borderline (i guess you won't be happy if a call you Moussaka or anything harsher that can come to mind especially the jokes we have in France concerning greeks's ******ity p-)) and a clear flame bait for any less zen (than me :-)) of your northern neighboors

Call me mousaka, call me a fag, call me tzatziki, call me Mustafa Ataturk Kemal if you like, i dont mind. I know who i am and where i'm coming from ;)


Other than that, if you feel offended please accept my apologies. And i am referring specifically to you.

[Mordoror]

Call me mousaka, call me a fag, call me tzatziki, call me Mustafa Ataturk KemalI won't (although i admit that associating the last one with you made me really laugh a lot when i saw it because it is priceless ironic humour ;-))


Other than that, if you feel offended please accept my apologies.Accepted (and i thank you for your "beau geste")

[Zarkus]

I hate to be the one to break this "Love fest" between you guys.... but more fresh news maybe!?

EC urges neighbourly relations between Macedonia and Greece

Brussels, November 18 (MIA) - The European Commission urges Macedonia and Greece to maintain their neighbourly relations and hopes the dispute between the countries over the constitutional name of Macedonia to be settled in due time.
This was stated Tuesday by Christina Nagy, a spokeswoman of EU Enlargement Commissioner, Olli Rehn, commenting the lawsuit filed by Macedonia against Greece before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) for breaching the 1995 Interim Accord.

- We were informed on Macedonia's decision to file legal proceedings in the Hague against Greece. The European Commission anticipates both countries to promote neighbourly relations. It also hopes a swift name solution to be found, stated Negy.

She added the European Commission was also informed about the position of Greece's Foreign Ministry that the country is prepared to take part in the process led before the International Court of Justice.
Official Athens assessed Macedonia's decision to institute proceedings before the International Court of Justice, so that Greece is ordered to observe Article 11 of the 1995 Interim Accord as "tactics for dragging out the name talks".

- After rejecting Nimetz's set of ideas, Skopje resumes with the dragging out tactics by instituting proceedings in The Hague on Greece's alleged violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord. This step once again confirms Skopje's lack of interest for swift settlement of the name issue", said Greek Foreign Ministry Spokesman George Koumoutsakos.

He announced that Athens would face the ICJ with "confidence and decisiveness", presenting documents and evidence that Macedonia, not Greece, was the party that violated the Interim Accord.
Moreover, Koumoutsakos said that Greece would remain committed to the UN process for a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue.

The Hague-based International Court of Justice has confirmed it received Macedonia's complaint late on Monday, without precising when it would be reviewed.

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=59211541&lId=2


Macedonia dispute lands Greece, Macedonia in court

ATHENS, Greece (CNN) -- An ongoing name dispute between Greece and Macedonia is to be referred to the International Court of Justice.

Greek officials said on Tuesday they were prepared to defend themselves in court after Macedonia filed a complaint claiming Athens had blocked its bid to join NATO.
The lawsuit marks the latest diplomatic wrangle in the 17-year-old name dispute between Greece and the former Yugoslavian republic.
Macedonia had hoped to join the military alliance earlier this year, but Greece's objections to its northern neighbor's choice of name blocked those aspirations at an alliance summit in April.
Greece wants Macedonia to relinquish its name, which it says is Greek. It also insists that Macedonia's use of the name suggests territorial aspirations on a region of the same name in northern Greece.
In lodging Skopje's complaint with the International Court at The Hague on Monday, Macedonian Foreign Minister Antonio Milosevski said Greece's veto at the April NATO summit was in violation of a 1995 agreement between the two countries.
The agreement, known as the interim accord, aimed to improve relations between the two states, allowing Macedonia to join international organizations under a provisional name -- the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia -- until the U.N. could mediate a resolution over the name dispute.
The U.N.'s highest judicial organ, the ICJ, said Monday it had received Skopjes' suit. It was not immediately clear, however, when the case would be heard and how long a verdict would take.
Even so, senior officials in Athens said Tuesday that diplomats preparing to defend Greece's positions expected a long and drawn-out legal procedure that could further imperil Macedonia's aspirations of joining international organizations.

"This was a scenario we were expecting," said George Koumoutsakos, spokesman for the Greek foreign ministry. "We are ready to defend our positions, but this will be a long and drawn-out legal procedure and throughout its course, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia will remain outside the international organizations it wants to join."

Koumoutsakos said Macedonia's suit was a "tactical move" intended to block ongoing UN mediations aimed at resolving the name dispute.

"It has done everything possible to obstruct the ongoing negotiating process," the spokesman told the state-run NET television network.

Relations between Greece and Macedonia have worsened since NATO's April summit, and a flurry of negotiations brokered by a special U.N. mediator have failed to yield any result on a compromise name.
Earlier this year, a U.N. mediator proposed "Northern Macedonia" as a compromise solution, but negotiations floundered over related issues on how outsiders should refer to the language and nationality of the people in Macedonia.

Wedged between Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and Kosovo, Macedonia was the only former Yugoslav republic to win independence in the 1990 without bloodshed.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/18/macedonia.dispute/index.html

[Zarkus]

Bakoyannis: Legal motion against Greece - new tactics of Gruevski

Athens /18/11/ 15:48

The motion Macedonia has filed against Greece at the International Court of Justice in The Hague is "tactics" of the Macedonian prime minister aimed at halting the negotiations on the name.

Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis came up with this statement after Macedonia government's decision to seek for resolution of the name issue at an international court.

"The Application represents a new tactics of Gruevski aimed at suspending the participation in the negotiations over the name," the Greek minister said.

On Monday, Macedonian government filed an Application to the International Court of Justice against Greece aimed at protecting its rights envisaged in the 1995 Interim Accord. /end/ nv

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=132352&NrIssue=823&NrSection=20



Doris Pack - I support Macedonia's actions

Berlin /18/11/ 15:57

Doris Pack MEP (CDU) in a statement given for Deutsche Welle said she supported Macedonia's actions aimed at resolving the name issue.

"This can't be a wrong way, because Macedonia is doing everything it can to reach some solution that will enable the country to keep its name. I think the situation is extremely difficult, which justifies whatever action Macedonia is taking in order to protect its right. I don't know if this is the right way to go, but I support in principle all Macedonia's efforts to find a way out of this situation," Pack said.

She commented yesterday's filing of the Application to the International Court of Justice in The Hague against Greece.

According to Pack, unless the name problem is solved, Macedonia cannot get any closer to
EU or NATO.

"However, as you are aware, such proceedings at international courts are usually lengthy and I don't know if Macedonia has so much time to settle the issue. Nevertheless, maybe the process itself will bring Greece to its senses and make it demonstrate more amicable policy toward its neighbor," Doris Pack told Deutsche Welle. /end/ nv

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=132351&NrIssue=823&NrSection=10

[chris450]

"However, as you are aware, such proceedings at international courts are usually lengthy and I don't know if Macedonia has so much time to settle the issue. Nevertheless, maybe the process itself will bring Greece to its senses and make it demonstrate more amicable policy toward its neighbor," Doris Pack told Deutsche Welle. /end/ nvway too lengthy...we can afford the lengthy procedure,i am not sure i can say the same for the gov of mr Gruevksi or FYROM
The second remark of the German MP is obviously out of touch with reality..i wouldnt bet on it Doris,sorry

what is interesting is that the decision to go to Hague created tension between president Cervenkofksi and PM Gruevski..FYROM's president seems to be much more level headed and keeps a critical stance to Gruevski's nationalist agenda


FYROM president: No prior consultation

Nevertheless, an announcement released by the cabinet of FYROM President Branko Crvenkovski charged that the "(Skopje) government has brought a decision without any prior consultation with the (FYROM) president ... thus violating the constitution and the law on foreign affairs."
"By this act, as well as the attitude toward the process of negotiations with Greece over the name dispute, PM Gruevski and the government take all responsibility over resolving the dispute, which implies the country's success or failure in the process of integration with EU and NATO," the Crvenkovski cabinet statement reads.

http://www.hri.org/news/greek/apeen/2008/08-11-17_5.apeen.html#03


A spokesperson for the Foreign Ministry in Athens said Skopje’s move proved that the Balkan state was not committed to dialogue.
“With this lawsuit, the Skopje government confirms yet again that it is not interested in the quick resolution of the name issue,” said ministry spokesman George Koumoutsakos. He said it was Skopje that had “blatantly violated a series of fundamental obligations foreseen by the pact and the fundamental principle of good-neighborly relations.”


Meanwhile in Skopje, FYROM President Branko Crvenkovski, who has clashed with FYROM Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski over the latter’s intransigent stance on the name issue, distanced himself from the initiative. “With this action, and with their behavior in name talks, Gruevski and his administration take full responsibility for solving the dispute and for the success or failure of (Skopje’s) bid to join the EU and NATO,” said Crvenkovski.


http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100008_18/11/2008_102237

[Zarkus]

One must admit that there are cool headed people in Greece also, too bad that they and up like this gentleman.



Why Critics of Greece's Macedonia Policy Keep Silent

11 November 2008 The Greek establishment still punishes people who deviate from the official line on Macedonia, as one former PASOK official discovered to his cost.
By Takis Michas in Athens
The legal prosecution and state-inspired harassment of people professing different views on “national issues” that took place during the early 1990s has left deep marks on Greek society.

Thus, today, even those few persons that have more critical views on the Macedonian issue, for example, prefer to keep them to themselves, fearing that such views will not improve their career prospects. As recent events show, their fears are not unjustified.

Grigoris Valianatos had been employed since 1985 with the leading left-wing opposition party PASOK as a political communications advisor. His job was to “package” the political message of the party and help disseminate it. He did not have any say in the contents of the message.

But when Valianatos was asked about his views on the “Skopje” issue and the Macedonian minority in Greece during a TV interview last Thursday, he replied that the country had every right to be called “Macedonia” and that a Macedonian minority existed in Greece.

Although he made clear that those were his personal views and by no means the views of the party, this clarification did not help him. The next morning, PASOK issued a laconic statement informing the public that Valianatos’s contract had been terminated because he had expressed “personal opinions” that contradicted the party line.

“I was really shocked when I read the statement,” Valianatos told me when I met him in Athens. “Everybody knew my views all these years and I never had the slightest problem. Indeed when I gave a speech at a PASOK meeting a few year ago and referred to the existence of a Turkish and a Macedonian minority the participants all applauded, including the party leader, George Papandreou.”

The government in Skopje argues that there is indeed a Macedonian minority in Greece, which has been deprived of its basic human rights of cultural and national expression and education in its mother tongue.

Athens, on the other hand, says that the only true Macedonians are the Greek Macedonians. As Greek Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis wrote in his letter to FYROM Prime Minister Gruevski "there has never existed a Macedonian minority" in Greece.

Ever since the break-up of former Yugoslavia in 1991, Macedonia's name and history has been the object of a dispute between Athens and Skopje.

After Greece strongly objected to Macedonia’s entry in to the United Nations under that name, the country was admitted in 1993 under the provisional term “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,” FYROM, pending a solution to the dispute.

The Skopje government insisted it had no territorial claims on Greek territory, while Athens for its part pledged not to block Skopje’s accession to international organizations, as long as it remained under the provisional name.

The so-called “name” row gained in momentum this April after Athens blocked Skopje’s application to join NATO, insisting Macedonia had to change its name first.
Valianatos, meanwhile, is also the author of various books, which until recently appeared on the personal website of Papandreou. After the incident, they disappeared from the PASOK leader’s website.

Valianatos insists his former role in PASOK had been purely technocratic. “My role was not political. I would offer all sorts of ideas concerning how to make PASOK’s message more effective but I had absolutely no influence in shaping the message,” he said.

“That is why I find the decision to terminate my contract incomprehensible. It is like dismissing your dentist because he happens to be a Maoist!”

Papandreou recently attended in Brussels a meeting of the Socialist International, the organization of which he is the current president. What is ironic is that most European socialists would agree with Valianatos on the issue of a Macedonian minority.

Alas, Greece is not like the rest of Europe, and what is considered self-evident in a European context is still too often considered a dangerous heresy in the Balkans.

Takis Michas is a Greek journalist and author of the book “Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic’s Serbia” (Texas A & M University Press 2002). Balkan Insight is BIRN`s online publication.

http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/comment/14709/



Greek Official Sacked for his Views

11 November 2008 Skopje _ The Greek leading left-wing opposition party PASOK sacked its political communications advisor after he publicly said that Skopje has every right to be called Macedonia and that a Macedonian minority does exist in Greece.
After expressing these stances in an interview for one local TV station last Thursday Grigoris Valianatos heard from the public statement that his party made that he had been sacked due to “personal opinions” that contradicted PASOK’s own.

“I was really shocked when I read the statement,” Grigoris Valianatos said. He argues that he underlined during the interview that the opinions are only his personal viewpoints. Read more: http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/comment/14709/

Valianatos, who is also the author of various books, which until recently appeared on the personal website of the party leader George Papandreou is also surprised that they too suddenly disappeared from there.

Ever since the break-up of former Yugoslavia in 1991, Macedonia's name and history has been the object of a dispute between Athens and Skopje.

The so-called 'name' row gained in momentum this April after Athens blocked Skopje’s application to join NATO, insisting Macedonia had to change its name first.

Furthermore, Skopje argues that there is indeed a Macedonian minority in Greece, which has been deprived of its human rights of cultural and national expression and education in its mother tongue.

Athens, on the other hand, says that the only true Macedonians are the Greek Macedonians.

http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/14711/

And this is not the first time it happened, remember the last Greek ambassador in Macedonia... Dora Grosomanidou i think it was her name. Only a day after she said something she shouldn't have said... zap! "Dora, shut your mouth and come back home!"


Diplomat in FYROM faux pas

The Foreign Ministry yesterday summoned home Greece’s ambassador to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to explain her suggestion that Athens abandon a 15-year dispute with Skopje over the country’s official name.

“Greece has to face the new reality, as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has been recognized under its constitutional name (Macedonia) by more than half the members of the United Nations,” Dora Grosomanidou told the Financial Times in an interview published on Thursday.

“Ms Grosomanidou is here so that the necessary explanations can be given,” ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos said. “At this point, there is no talk of a recall.” Sources said that Grosomanidou’s term in Skopje is due to end in four months in any case.

Referring in the interview to FYROM’s decision to name its international airport in Skopje Alexander the Great after the ancient Greek general, Grosomanidou said: “A re-inflammation of emotions was not necessary at this particular time. Both sides have to stay as cool as possible.”

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100018_07/07/2007_85403

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_100024_16/07/2007_85722

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0f1f3452-28b8-11dc-af78-000b5df10621.html?nclick_check=1

So.... that's that...

[Vorian]

Zarkus I don't know if you really don't understand or you are doing it on purpose but no politician was sacked by the "greek establishment". An idiot said sometihng idiotic in public and that statement would mean loss of votes for his party and that's why he was unceremonially kicked out.

[Amateur]

@ Zarkus:
1. The diplomat story is more than one year old, so it's got nothing to do with the present developments (legal proceedings etc.)
2. Valianatos was not a "Greek official'. He was a paid media advisor for the opposition party PASOK; that doesn't make him a "Greek official".

I suggest you better stop searching the net to find out if FYROM's desparate move made the news in any country around the world, and concentrate on the merits of the case. Going to Court is a bitch you know... unless you have a convincing case to present, it turns against you. And what matters in Court is not some German PM's comments, but the merits of the case. I presented them to you one page ago, but you seem to be more focused on creating short term impressions... So once again, here are the merits of the case:


- First of all, article 11 of the 1995 Interim Accord (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/95-27866.html) does not oblige Greece to accept FYROM, by the name "Macedonia" in any international organization. The article reads as follows:



Article 11
1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993) (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/S.RES.817.html).
Since the above resolution defines the name to be used by this country as "FYROM", Greece has every right to object to FYROM's entry in any international organization by any other name, as was the case with NATO (where FYROM wanted to enter as "Macedonia").

- Secondly, I doubt if there ever was an official Greek declaration or vote cast, actually vetoing FYROM's entry to NATO. When Greece presented its objections, many other countries like France, Italy and Spain agreed, and in the end the NATO summit of Bucharest decided that FYROM was not yet to be considered as a candidate. So it was not just the Greek reaction, it was a summit decision, which reads as follows:



20. We recognise the hard work and the commitment demonstrated by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 1 to NATO values and Alliance operations. We commend them for their efforts to build a multi ethnic society. Within the framework of the UN, many actors have worked hard to resolve the name issue, but the Alliance has noted with regret that these talks have not produced a successful outcome. Therefore we agreed that an invitation to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia will be extended as soon as a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue has been reached. We encourage the negotiations to be resumed without delay and expect them to be concluded as soon as possible.
http://www.summitbucharest.ro/en/doc_201.html

- Thirdly, if you really want to discuss violations of the Interim Accord, I would gladly point some of them out to you:



Article 6
1. The Party of the Second Part hereby solemnly declares that nothing in its Constitution (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html), and in particular in the Preamble (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html#Preamble) thereto or in Article 3 (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html#Art3) of the Constitution (http://www.hri.org/docs/fyrom/fyrom-const.html), can or should be interpreted as constituting or will ever constitute the basis of any claim by the Party of the Second Part to any territory not within its existing borders.

Contrary to the above undertaking, the Skopje prime minister has been photographed while honoring a monument featuring Greek Macedonia as part of his state.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg



Article 7
1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.
Contrary to that commitment, the Skopje government has issued school books and maps featuring Greek Macedonia as part of their state:

http://www.youtube.com/v/eTUqfuTbk_s (http://www.youtube.com/v/eTUqfuTbk_s)
...which is the reason why the US Congress in 2007 adopted a resolution (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:hr356ih.txt.pdf) urging the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to stop hostile propaganda and find a mutually acceptable solution with Greece on the name issue
Quote:
101 Members of the House of Representatives express the sense that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between the FYROM and Greece regarding "hostile activities or propaganda" and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for the FYROM.
The resolution urges FYROM to retract its attempts to falsify history and claim Greece's heritage as its own. Examples mentioned in the resolution include the renaming of the country's main airport to "Alexander the Great", creating maps for school and military textbooks showing a "Greater Macedonia" that reaches well into Greece and Bulgaria and teaching school children that parts of Greece, including the Greek region of Macedonia, are rightfully part of the FYROM.

Furthermore, the FYROM government has allowed the Greek flag to be publicly desacrated for days in Skopje by putting a swastika in the place where the flag has a cross
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5017/dsc00095dd5.jpg

Now... is that behaviour consistent with the Interim Accord? I think not.

Throwing stones is a really really bad idea when you 're in a glass house...
Nothing more to say; See you in Court p-)

[Mordoror]

as i said previously, even if the ICJ move is not the wiset, it will have the merit to allow the things to step out of the statu quo (after all the discussion between the 2 parties are dead since several months if not years, every one assessing that the other side is not willing to settle the problem)
So may be with new blood in the discussion we will have new thought and a new basis for advancing

Now what i feel interesting is the opposition between the PM and the president

either that move was for personal gain from the PM (would not be astonishing)without probability of success and i understand that the president is angered

either it may or may not have a chance of success but it has an impact on actual discussions on which the president was invested, wasting its work

either there is a more deeper antagonism between the two in charge, antagonism that is coming to light finally

wait and see .........