Whatever happened to the M60?

[The Beard]

I've only found and joined this site in the last week, so if this question has already been asked, my apologies. The question is: I've noticed for the last few years that U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan seem to be using what appears to be the FN MAG, whereas the M60 seemed to fill that role from the Vietnam era. Seeing the FN must date from the '50s and some armies including the Bundeswehr use an updated version of the WW2 MG42, I don't see how it can be obsolete in that company. Any ideas why?

[Yarrick2]

The '60 was a heavy beast, which had a worse performance rate than either the MAG-58 (M-240 in American use) or the MG-3 (the mg-42 derivative) . I think you may be able to find a few 60's in use but they are going to be few and far between.

[cliffg]

When I was in, we lovingly called the M-60 "the pig." It was unreliable as all get out, inaccurate, hard to maintain, and hard to change barrels without a glove (or spare socks...). We always gave it to the new guy (hee, hee). Now, the ones we had were bloody ancient so that could have something to do with it, but folks I know who were in Vietnam didn't have much better stories or a higher opinion of the M-60.

I never got to use the M-240 (FN-MAG) as a GPMG, so I can not say anything about it from personal use. But the UK and Israel have had excellent service with it in numerous conflicts, so that should account for something. If you look at it mechanically, the FN-MAG/M240 is little more than a flipped-over BAR - and we Yanks loves us the BAR!

[gaijinsamurai]

My National Guard unit swapped our M60s for M240s in 2000/2001 and when they did it, all I could think was "It's about time!". Although the FN MAG58 is an older design, it was always better, in my opinion. Hell, just look at how many countries used the FN vs the M60, and it's easy to figure out.

About the only really good thing I can say about the M60 is that it was a lot of fun to shoot, and in the deserts of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait in 1991, were more reliable than our M249 SAWs.

[seraosha]

I lugged a pig around as a 19D in the middle '90's, and it wasn't so bad. Better stopping power than a SAW, and it's a machinegun...accuracy and pinpoint shots are not it's strong suit...suppressive fire and making lots of holes in things down range was what it was good for.

We used it as a crew served weapon in the turret of our hummers on patrol, once it was deemed inappropriate to be in a dense urban area with .50s and MK19s...when the walls were cinder block and roof of tin and on a peacekeeping mission.

I liked my m16A2/M203 better though, so when dismounted I did stick it to the FNGs. Made them feel like Rambo for the first 5 miles. p-)

[-[Crosshair]-]

I've never handled an M60 before, is it designed the same way as the M240? What's fun about having M240s with M249s is that they both pretty much work the same way.

[Kaplanr]

I thought the M-60 was an American derivative of the German MGs, so the design should differ somewhat from the MAG.

I loved the MAG in both the roles we used it, SAW and static cover. The Negev hadn't come into service yet. I was able to put a round into something man-sized at a 1000 meters, almost like a sniper's rifle. But the most "fun" was going through 3-4 cases of ammo and everything in my Ephod on automatic in 2-3 second bursts. All I'd save was a 100 round emergency belt.

[LineDoggie]

The '60 was a heavy beast, which had a worse performance rate than either the MAG-58 (M-240 in American use) or the MG-3 (the mg-42 derivative) . I think you may be able to find a few 60's in use but they are going to be few and far between.

The M-60 weighed 23 pounds, an M240 weighs 27 pounds

[Britboy]

M60s are used by the RAF Chinooks, I think they came with the deal...

GPMG FTW though.

Haven't used an LMG/Minimi yet :(

[gaijinsamurai]

Agree with Kaplan: If you look at the MG42 (and MG34) and the M60, you can easily see the influence of the German machine guns on the American design.

[LineDoggie]

Agree with Kaplan: If you look at the MG42 (and MG34) and the M60, you can easily see the influence of the German machine guns on the American design.


Debateable, The Operating Rod , and Rotating Bolt are direct descendents of the Lewis Gun, which later the FG42 used a similar locking system.

Check it out sometime, you'll be amazed.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/800px-LewisGunParts1.jpg




MG42 Bolts arent Rotating, they use roller locking

MG34 Bolts do Rotate

Feed tray mechanism is based on the German Guns



M240(FN MAG58) is the BAR locking mechanism upside down in the reciever

[James]

I was in one of the first battalions in the USMC (3/7) to swap M60s for M240Gs; We did this in the summer of 1995. The m240 is a more reliable, durable, and accurate machine gun than the M60.

[Alfacentori]

Isn't the M60E3 and E4 still in use in the USMC or has it been phased out in operational units all together?

Alfa

[bikewrench]

The above post makes me weep...
Partly because he has his rear sight covered and has probably mis-loaded his MG.
Partly for his pogue stories.
But mostly, I miss having neighbors, (in MG section, not REAL neighbors that could speak or anything) that had a bunch of 60's, that they could shoot REAL GOOD.
Semper Fi 0331's!

[Firefly26]

The E4 fixed alot of the problems that plagued the M60. The new ones that are made now are almost a completely different gun. That said, I hated the E3. The first time I fired that thing I hated it. The german MG3 was far superior, although I did find the trigger pull a little heavy. The 240B is heavier, but it is a hell of a lot better. They started phasing out the 60 from line units in 2000-2001, but you might still find some units out there that still have 60s.

[Pappy]

My Battalion's HHC still has a few M60s in the arms room for some reason and they were mounted on a couple gun trucks. I think the CSM just liked them. I absolutely loved the M240B in my turret, although humping it on air assaults would be quite the pain I imagine. That's where the Mk48 needs to come in for regular Infantry units.

[The Beard]

Thanks all for your replies. Seeing non U.S. equipment being used by American forces is really quite rare so as much as anything that's what made me ask the question.

[LineDoggie]

Thanks all for your replies. Seeing non U.S. equipment being used by American forces is really quite rare so as much as anything that's what made me ask the question.


"Rare"? Not really true though...

M9 Beretta- Italian (92F)
M249 SAW- Belgian (Minimi)
M240MMG- Belgian (FN MAG58)
M136 AT Rocket- Swedish (AT4)
M252 Mortar- British (L16)
M120 Mortar- Israeli/French (Soltam M65)
M68 105mm Tank Gun- British (Royal Ordnance L7)
M256 120mm Tank Gun- German (Rheinmetall L/44)
Our WW2 105mm Howitzer was from a WWI German design

Our WWI & II, Korea 155mm Gun was from a French design

[Mike Keenan]

"Rare"? Not really true though...

M9 Beretta- Italian (92F)
M249 SAW- Belgian (Minimi)
M240MMG- Belgian (FN MAG58)
M136 AT Rocket- Swedish (AT4)
M252 Mortar- British (L16)
M120 Mortar- Israeli/French (Soltam M65)
M68 105mm Tank Gun- British (Royal Ordnance L7)
M256 120mm Tank Gun- German (Rheinmetall L/44)

Our WW2 105mm Howitzer was from a WWI German design

Our WWI & II, Korea 155mm Gun was from a French design
You forgot the M119 105mm Howitzer- Modified British Royal Ordnance L118

[LineDoggie]

You forgot the M119 105mm Howitzer- Modified British Royal Ordnance L118
Your right, My Local Arty boys are still using the M102 till later this year

[Tourist]

M60s are used by the RAF Chinooks, I think they came with the deal...



So, buy an M60 and get a free Chinook, ...........good deal.



Sorry coud not resist:roll:.

[Ominae]

Still in use in the Armed Forces of the Philippine. We gotta thank the Americans for supplying us with them weapons. XD

[zoot]

Wait... does the M60E4 = MK 43?

[citizen soldier]

The unit I was with in Iraq had a couple M60s in the mix. We had to use them when a couple of our M2s went in for depot level repair. That was in 05-06.

[AC434]

Thanks all for your replies. Seeing non U.S. equipment being used by American forces is really quite rare so as much as anything that's what made me ask the question.


What exactly does "Non US" equipment mean now-a-days. The M240B is made in Columbia, South Carolina....

[Firefly26]

Wait... does the M60E4 = MK 43?

No, the Mod 0 has a different flash hider and gas tube, the Mod 1 is much closer though.

[TyroneBiggums]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/070817-A-7794G-004.jpg

One pic from Astan there was another around with the 60 being used in the same position.

[LineDoggie]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/sabretron/070817-A-7794G-004.jpg

One pic from Astan there was another around with the 60 being used in the same position.

M60D with Spade Grips, we used to have them on Our M48A5's

[Laworkerbee]

M60D with Spade Grips, we used to have them on Our M48A5's

God damn you're old Doggie :)

[LineDoggie]

God damn you're old Doggie :)
Yep, OG's and Steel Pots, Green Overcoats for the Class "A"s

[Laconian]

I humped the M60 during summer at Camp Buckner. A heavy mofo, road marching that thing all over West Point's hills sucked. I couldn't imagine humping that thing allover the Central Highlands in VN,or Korea, or Panama. I've got a pic somewhere of me firing a belt load of blanks from the hip. Fun stuff. My mech rifle platoon had 2 assigned to the plt HQ element, circa '84-'88. With blank adapters they were the largest single shot rifle I've ever seen. I don't recall any major problems with them during live fire or ranges.

[LineDoggie]

Camp Buckner, LOL I spent Summer 2002 Roaming in that AO doing my Force Pro Checks. Some of those trails by Bull Pond can get steep. Used My First M240 borrowed from Cadet Supply.

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

What exactly does "Non US" equipment mean now-a-days. The M240B is made in Columbia, South Carolina....

OK OK ... NON US DESIGNED!!:roll:

[Yarrick2]

OK OK ... NON US DESIGNED!!:roll:
The Garand was designed by a Canadian and the m1903 had a mouser action, it's nothing new.

[The Beard]

"Rare"? Not really true though...

M9 Beretta- Italian (92F)
M249 SAW- Belgian (Minimi)
M240MMG- Belgian (FN MAG58)
M136 AT Rocket- Swedish (AT4)
M252 Mortar- British (L16)
M120 Mortar- Israeli/French (Soltam M65)
M68 105mm Tank Gun- British (Royal Ordnance L7)
M256 120mm Tank Gun- German (Rheinmetall L/44)
Our WW2 105mm Howitzer was from a WWI German design

Our WWI & II, Korea 155mm Gun was from a French design
Ahem, yes alright nose well and truly rubbed in it there. Nobody seems to have mentioned the WW2 6-pdr AT or the Rolls Royce Merlin. The Harrier ended up being almost totally remanufactured in the U.S. as did the Canberra,or Martin B57 as it became known. I remember the trials for the replacement of the Colt 1911 which the Beretta won, and yes, thinking about it, the M48 and M60 had the L7, but my line of thinking went from WW2, when the U.S. used virtually nothing in any quanity that was made or designed elsewhere if they already had something of their own. Right, I'm going to sit in a corner now and suck my thumb.

[Skutatos]

The Romans hardly used anything of their own design either. Most militaries throughout history are open to adopting whatever gear works, regardless of origin.

[gregb]

I thought the Seals still use a variation of the 60 because it performs better when wet ???

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2d_1203417870

[matthew.manhorn]

My friend who served in Iraq said he needed to open the external guard, the feeder and before placing the round there, while the PKM only needed to clip in a box mag to the feeder. but the m240 seemed to have less tenancy on jamming.

can someone tell me is m60's procedure as intricate as the m240? how about its jamming rates?

[LineDoggie]

My friend who served in Iraq said he needed to open the external guard, the feeder and before placing the round there, while the PKM only needed to clip in a box mag to the feeder. but the m240 seemed to have less tenancy on jamming.

? External Guard????Someone, either you or your friend is confused. The Feed Tray Cover is normally Lifted to place the Linked belt into position on the feed tray, so that the first round is indexed.

A PKM box attached to the reciever doesnt load the gun






can someone tell me is m60's procedure as intricate as the m240? how about its jamming rates?

?? Both Loading Proceedures are mostly the same, main difference is the 60 has a Lever safety compared to the 240's Crossbolt safety.

Lift Feedtray Cover
Retract Bolt, put weapon on safe
Place belt on feedtray properly
Close Feedtray Cover
Place weapon on Fire
Pull Trigger while yelling Get some

[notherhen40]

I humped the M60 during summer at Camp Buckner. A heavy mofo, road marching that thing all over West Point's hills sucked. I couldn't imagine humping that thing allover the Central Highlands in VN,or Korea, or Panama. I've got a pic somewhere of me firing a belt load of blanks from the hip. Fun stuff. My mech rifle platoon had 2 assigned to the plt HQ element, circa '84-'88. With blank adapters they were the largest single shot rifle I've ever seen. I don't recall any major problems with them during live fire or ranges.

Heh, heh, heh....got you beat...try humpin that paperweight around the hills of Germany...and yes, they ALWAYS dump that thing on the new guy. Try carrying the M60 its self, the tripod, the t/e mechinism, personal weapon,(M16) and a duffel bag of gear around the ao you are in. Ever since my time in the service, when ever I hear someone mention the epic saga of the M60, I just want to go and shoot something............:)

[gaijinsamurai]

I once had to carry an M60, tripod, extra barrel, ammo AND my M16A2 through the woods of Ft. Lewis for a day and a half. Sucked big time. That's what happens when you're an NCO in the National Guard, and your 60 gunner and a-gunnner are sh*tbird pussies!
No fun at all.

It's sh*t like that which makes a guy content with just being in the Guard!

[Nordsoldat]

Lift Feedtray Cover
Retract Bolt, put weapon on safe
Place belt on feedtray properly
Close Feedtray Cover
Place weapon on Fire
Pull Trigger while yelling Get some

Our reverses two of your steps, but we's canucks and kinda odd :p

**** Weapon
Place On Safe
Lift Cover
Seat belt
Slam Cover Home
Disengage Saftey
Engage Party Mode Switch to "Yeehaw" (Fire the weapon)

And as Far as the FN-MAG/GPMG/M240/C6 GPMG goes, I love the darn thing, Solid, built like a rock, chews through ammo nema problema, easy to strip and clean and pretty darned accurate(4.4cm group at 200M, 5rd Application) and is perfect for the Mounted Recce Role my Reg't performs in G Wagons.

[hankpac]

I remember being crouched behind a big tree, or maybe another time when I was trying to pull a buddy back from the kill zone, and hearing that gun (or two) hammering the NVA. I knew I only would have a few seconds, but I also knew I WOULD have those few seconds, to get out there and back under cover.
I never heard a sound I liked better than the pig cuttin' loose, and hammering the bad guys hard.
In spite of people saying it was unreliable, or failed under hard use, I never heard ours jam, or fail. The gunners kept them clean, and working. Our lives depended on those things.
A guy named Teel walked behind me in C company for the whole time I was in that bunch. He was huge, and could carry the gun by the pistol grip, with the butt caught in the crook of his arm. He rarely wore a shirt, and had two or three belts of ammo draped across his chest. I sometimes called him Pancho Villa.
bubububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububububu.
Non-stop hammering. And under the pounding, the ching of belt links piling up.

[Adam Wilhelm]

He rarely wore a shirt, and had two or three belts of ammo draped across his chest..

This image comes to mind. p-)

http://thisdistractedglobe.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/FullMetalJacket3.jpg

[hankpac]

The picture comes close, but not quite. Teel was a huge light colored black man, His arms looked like he had baby watermelons under the skin. He wore a green towel around his neck, but none of us wore flack jackets.
Very soft spoken, quiet sort of guy.
It took me 35 years to relocate him, but I talked to him just last year.
The M-60 was a good gun when well taken care of.
The gun they carry now in the 101, is supposed to be based on the MAG, a bit lighter, and reliable. I don't know first hand, but the guys seem to like it. they are making good use of what they actually have, and the SAW seems to be holding up well in Iraq.
I intend to closely query the guys about that, when we get them all back home.

[Currahee 1SG]

CLEARING PROCEDURES

This is the same for the M240B

The first step in maintenance is to clear the weapon. This applies in all situations, not just after firing. The gunner must always assume the M249 machine gun is loaded. To clear the M249, the gunner performs the following procedures:
Moves the safety to the fire “F” position by pushing it to the left until the red ring is visible.
With his right hand, palm up, pulls the cocking handle to the rear, locking the bolt in place.
While holding the resistance on the cocking handle, moves the safety to the safe position by pushing it to the right until the red ring is not visible. (The gunner can only place the weapon on safe with the bolt locked to the rear.)
Returns and locks the cocking handle to the forward position
HOT WEAPON
A "hot" weapon, that is, one through which 200 or more successive rounds have just been fired, can "cook off" a round without any action by the firer.
If a "hot" weapon fails to fire, and you must clear it while the
barrel is still hot--
1. Keep the feed tray cover closed, get the weapon off your shoulder, and point it downrange.
2. Place the weapon on safe (no red showing).
3. Place the weapon on the ground, still pointed downrange.
4. Before clearing and applying immediate or remedial action,
you must first wait--
• Training situations: 15 minutes.
• Tactical situations: 5 seconds.
HOT WEAPON--FEED COVER
Before opening the feed tray cover on a hot gun, place the
weapon on the ground away from your face.
If a round cooks off while your weapon is on your shoulder, and the feed tray cover is open, you could suffer injury or death.
Raises the cover and feed mechanism assembly, and conducts the five-point safety check for
brass, links, or ammunition:
1) Checks the feed pawl assembly under the feed cover.
2) Checks the feed tray assembly.
3) Lifts the feed tray assembly and inspects the chamber.
4) Checks the space between the bolt assembly and the chamber.
5) Inserts two fingers of left hand into magazine well to extract ammunition or brass.
Closes the cover and feed mechanism assembly, and moves the safety to the “F” position.
With his right hand, palm up, returns the cocking handle to the rear position.
Presses the trigger and at the same time eases the bolt forward by manually riding the cocking handle forward.

[wedge donovan]

I was a 60 gunner for awhile and I really liked it, but i didnt have to hump the tripod, t&e, or my primary either. There is a diference between the E3 and the MK 43 too. 43 is more solid. Both are still being used in some Navy units.