question on timeline of chest rigs

[CamoDeafie]

Hello, I have a question regarding the timeline of chest rigs in military use, specifically, what else were there between the ChiCom vietnam era chest rigs and the presumably UK-invented universal chest rigs with 3 mag pouches and 2 dump pouches? I ask because after those became issue, there suddenly seemed an increase in chest rig popularity, i've seen a photo of a USN SEAL with what appears to be a home brew chest rig, lots of MOLLE platforms, SF chest rigs, but those all seem to be confined to the 90s and newer......I recall seeing a painting in the Military Uniforms book of a SBS operator with a chest rig, from the Falklands War, so, you knowledgable guys could help me out?

[James]

In World War One some American soldiers carried grenades in what we would think of today as a "rack". In WWII Paratroopers and Commandos routinely modified their gear and mounted stuff on their chests. The best example is to find some pics of U.S. paratroopers on June 5, 1944 - check out how many have mag carriers for Tommy Guns rigged on their chests.

I think the increased use of chest rigs has kind of paralleled the increased use of body armor with plates.

[snapper036]

In NI, we started using the 'arktis' style chest rigs back in the early 90's. They were normally Olive green but I remember seeing the DPM versions start to appear about '95.

There are many different versions including the issue PLCE version, which came out at the end of the '90's

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Research the Rhodesian and South African bush wars of the 60,70,80's.

Plenty in use there.

[scttgillies]

During 1990, artkis produced chest rigs for the infantry in both 4 and 7 bde. There was the classic 5 pouch and a version modified for the royal scots, with 3 ammo pouches, 2 w/btl pouches and 2 grenade pouches.

All were in DPM with velcro closures. Ive still got my 7 pouch, 18 years l8r and wont ever change it.

[martinexsquaddie]

there was a battle jerkin issued in 1944
72 pattern webbing could be worn chest rig style and was used by the sas
took off in popularity in NI as your weren't carrying loads of kit but you were in and out of trucks and helicopters etc

[CamoDeafie]

hmm. so basically, its the UK and the South African that used chest rigs more often in between the Vietnam War and the 90s? I have a question, Military channel showed a show with reenactors, "untold stores of the special forces" or something like that, one of the episodes were related to Panama, I think? Anyways...in this one, it showed American soldiers with what appeared to be SAS styled Chest rigs, but in woodland....now....I know the Special Forces have a habit of choosing their own kits and such, but it made me wonder of any accuracy in this show since i've yet to see an actual documented picture of more than 1 US operator with a chest rig similar to what's purpoted to be used in Panama.....

and I take it there werent many, if any custom rigs using the ALICE pouches?

am gonna look up the SA/Rhodie rigs :)

[LineDoggie]

There was a Company called "FMCO"? back in the early 90's that made rigs using ALICE style pouches. I had their version LBV and it wasnt to shabby. I also had(Still have ) an Arktis 42 Cdo chest rig in DPM. Except for one CSM never had any grief over using it. Used it at Hood till I got issued a DCU RACK

[CamoDeafie]

interesting. I'll look up FMCO and see if they have something... I made my own chest rig for non-military duty using my old M16 pouches that i bought before the MOLLE craze, and while its not intended for military duty, it holds up pretty good, was wondering what riggers couldve used before the arktis era.....noted that there were no pics of ALICE based chest rigs, so I didnt think to look up FMCO :)

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Militaria%20-%20Southern%20Africa/

http://selousscouts.tripod.com/EQUIPMENT.htm

[LineDoggie]

Didnt the WW2 Italian Paras wear a Chest Rig for Beretta M1938 magazines? nickname was the "Samurai vest"

[Britboy]

I always thought chest rigs became more popular when IFVs came in? As then, armoured troops weren't using an APC as a battlefield taxi and debussing away from the enemy and fighting on foot as normal infantry, but were debussing real close to the enemy and so it was a short-but-sharp style of fighting, and not far away from the wagon for long?

Although I've never been armoured, only light role, and most of our guys use their issued webbing & beltkit. It is good for being on foot with.

That said, chest rigs are a favourite for FIBUA (MOUT?) even amongst our guys, as they make it easier to get through windows, into attics etc, and you don't normally need e.g. spare rations, hexi, survival kit etc, but just ammo ammo ammo...

Or did I get it wrong, and were Assault Vests for armd inf/FIBUA/Norn Iron rather than chest rigs?

[CamoDeafie]

looked up FMCO, no chest rigs offered, just LBVS.
as to the SA/Rhodie, again, CHiCOm styled chest rigs...tho i noticed a prevalence of them, and then theres the camo chest rig in your personal photobucket..nice rig! I have an airsoft clone i think, of the arktis rig in american 6 color desert pattern..... not really a big fan of its narrow back straps

[GG]

I had an 82 pattern Arktis rig when I was stationed in Germany in the late 80s and it was DPM. This was back when David Ross MBE was running the company. The 82 pattern featured 3 ammo pouches across the middle and large utility pouches on either end. There was also a map pocket behind the pouches. The design came from the SF issue chest rigs manufactured from Butyl by MK Ltd. That style of rig saw use in the Falklands. They came with a built in rapelling (abseiling) harness but most guys cut them out.

[floupe]

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Militaria%20-%20Southern%20Africa/

http://selousscouts.tripod.com/EQUIPMENT.htm

Surprised was I to click on one of these links to find my page ...

The 'SBS chest rig' mentioned in the first post is the Butyl rig that GG mentions.
The evolution of chest rigs and vest webbing seems to go in circles and is very much in vogue at the moment, at least in Western armies.

Chest and vest webbing largely fell out of favour after WWII. Then in the 1970's Rhodesians copied Chicom chest rigs captured from 'terrs' and then developed it to a vest format. Being closely aligned, the Sth Africans soon followed suit in the 1980's consequently coming out with their Pattern 1983 vest webbing which has subsequently been copied by all and sundry.

European development could largely be attributed to Arktis who, by copying the 'SBS' rubberised butyl nylon chest rig and making it available on the open market to tremendous demand by soldiers (so much so that the MOD eventually developed their own version of the Arktis rig!). Incidentally, the Arktis rigs were known as '42' and '45' after the RM CDO designations and were initially avail in OD and DPM. It must also be mentioned that slightly earlier, the SASS also had a number of vests designs (such as the COP vest) which were reputedly developed from captured Argentine examples in the Falklands.

This is not to say that the concept was entirely neglected elsewhere ... the Egyptians developed a load carrying vest similar to the British WWII version which saw action in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Interest in the US, particularly from the private market, which observed the success of the Rhodesian experience, saw them come up which a variety of designs in the late '70s - '80s geared towards shooters and survivalists. One company (perhaps FMCO) managed to send a load of LBE vests to the 75th Rangers to evaluate on their expedition to Grenada in 1983. The US military, after evaluation, then issued the Tactical Load Bearing Vest (TLBV) as standard in 1988.

[CamoDeafie]

pictures of the Butyl rigs and the egyptian models?

I am aware that FMCO made LBVs with fastex buckles, but have not seen any chest rigs made in the 80s documented as being private market.....other than the Arktis and the SA versions

[Britboy]

Hmmm, 'goes in circles' eh...

I suppose assault vests and chest rigs might, I'm not sure.

Webbing and beltkit is a pretty much constant, and it should be, its good kit for the great majority of situations. I've heard that tankies prefer something with the pouches on the front so they can sit and drive but all pouches to the rear/sides is essential for infantry/dismounted pers who need to be able to crawl.

The American-type LBV harnesses that feature pouches on the front of the yoke, instead of a plain webbing yoke, seem pretty innovative, I'm wondering if its worth getting something like this that is manufactured in the UK as a way of carrying added things - 349, command kit like TAMs, documents case, map, BATCO etc. Then your usual webbing (ammo, water, utility pouches, bayonet + PRR) goes below this as usual - I think it just replaces the plain 'shoulder straps' yoke.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6889/patrolyoke1jpgkv2.jpg
A company called Troopers do them apparently, called the 'patrols yoke', you can see pics on ARRSE. Whilst regular webbing might do for most of the Army I can see how for infanteers with extra things they must always carry as part of their role in the team (like med kit or UGL rounds if you have them) extra pouches are good!

The other thing I was going to say is that from pictures of lads out in Afg/Iraq, it looks like the different options above aren't really chosen, it looks more like blokes just carry their kit like mags, FFDs, camelbak etc directly on their body armour, the new Osprey type. Which is probably great for COIN type ops. So that is a new option coming in as well. Not to mention people attach things to their thighs now, not just holsters but pouches too.

http://www.foxham4x4.co.uk/airsoft/osprey1.jpg

Okay that pics from a crappy airsoft site but its the first thing to come up when I google-image searched for osprey armour!

[GG]

Surprised was I to click on one of these links to find my page ...

Incidentally, the Arktis rigs were known as '42' and '45' after the RM CDO designations and were initially avail in OD and DPM.

Thanks for the assist on the Arktis rigs.

FWIW, the vests used by the 75th in Grenada were not chest rigs but rather QRVs from Urban Elevated Operations. They were modular and used velcro panels backed up with snaps. They were similar in cut the the ABA vests used later on by the AF.

[Royal]

Incidentally, the Arktis rigs were known as '42' and '45' after the RM CDO designations and were initially avail in OD and DPM. It must also be mentioned that slightly earlier, the SASS also had a number of vests designs (such as the COP vest) which were reputedly developed from captured Argentine examples in the Falklands.

The 42 (not sure about the 45) was also available in white. They (the Arktis versions) were IRR from the get-go, unlike many of their competitors.

[CamoDeafie]

fascinating. i've been looking on specwargear's websites... still no mention of a certain camo 5-pouch chest rig (all mags, no dump pouches) that ive seen in Hans Halberstadt's book US Navy SEALS in action...

[Britboy]

White kit must be pretty cool, I know they issue a desert vest for people deploying now, but I've never seen PLCE for snow.

I'm now thinking a chest rig is probably just what you want when skiing, holds everything close to the body nice and tight near the centre of mass...

[CamoDeafie]

my non-military chest rig, used to be a LA Korus fanny pack, i removed the main pack portion of it and sewed shoulder strap webbing on it for my ALICE pouches, sorry for bad image quality, I notice HSGI's Warlord series are similar in concept to the rig i have, 4 mag pouches and misc pouches to the side, but i've honestly never seen a ALICE type chest rig..hope you guys dont mind mine posting the pics of it here? inspired in part from the navy seal rig and Arktis rigs, but with the materials i have on hand :)

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/CamoDeafie/misc/IMG00328.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/CamoDeafie/misc/IMG00329.jpg

[congofal]

Not really a Chest Rig per say , but this where issued in Vietnam to ARVN and US troops.
From my collection:
OD version
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff22/Adler69_photo/Edspics228-1.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff22/Adler69_photo/Edspics227-1.jpg

ERDL Version:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3606/m16vestp8.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1126/m16ves2rf0.jpg

Here are some pics of them in use during the war
SF issue in Tiger Stripe being used by the guy on the left of the pic
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/584/m16ves3ex8.jpg

The OD ones issued to ARVN and US troops
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4021/m16ves4mh3.jpg

[floupe]

White kit must be pretty cool, I know they issue a desert vest for people deploying now, but I've never seen PLCE for snow.


Article from UK publication 'Combat & Survival' June 2004:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Reference%20Scans/Kit%20and%20Camo%20articles/Brit%20Arctic%20Assault%20Vest/KC-Winter01-Jun04.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Reference%20Scans/Kit%20and%20Camo%20articles/Brit%20Arctic%20Assault%20Vest/KC-Winter02.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Reference%20Scans/Kit%20and%20Camo%20articles/Brit%20Arctic%20Assault%20Vest/KC-Winter03.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Reference%20Scans/Kit%20and%20Camo%20articles/Brit%20Arctic%20Assault%20Vest/KC-Winter04.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/filupe/Reference%20Scans/Kit%20and%20Camo%20articles/Brit%20Arctic%20Assault%20Vest/KC-Winter05.jpg

[Dan2004]

Not really a Chest Rig per say , but this where issued in Vietnam to ARVN and US troops.
From my collection:
OD version
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff22/Adler69_photo/Edspics228-1.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff22/Adler69_photo/Edspics227-1.jpg

Interesting. I remeber my old man showing me something kinda like this that he brought back from Vietnam. Only the ones he had were ones that he and his buddies had scratch-made while they were in-country. The one he showed me had a zipperd front closure and pouches from the 56 gear fixed to the front and back of the vest: Multiple magazine pouches up front and canteen carriers on the back.

[taiaha]

Marine Raiders,Bougainville 1944:

h*tp://www.archives.gov/research/ww2/photos/images/ww2-147.jpg

[Gleipnir]

I had an 82 pattern Arktis rig when I was stationed in Germany in the late 80s and it was DPM. This was back when David Ross MBE was running the company. The 82 pattern featured 3 ammo pouches across the middle and large utility pouches on either end. There was also a map pocket behind the pouches. The design came from the SF issue chest rigs manufactured from Butyl by MK Ltd. That style of rig saw use in the Falklands. They came with a built in rapelling (abseiling) harness but most guys cut them out.

Is this the 82 pattern rig?

[GG]

Is this the 82 pattern rig?
I messed up on the nomenclature. It is the correct style for a 42 pattern rig from Arktis but they didn't have the covers for the SR buckles. It looks familiar but I can't remember the manufacturer.

[Gleipnir]

Okay, thanks for that GG.

I came across this in Osprey's Arab armies of the Middle East Wars (2).
Plate A2-
"The mustard-khaki battle-vest was devised for this campaign; ingenious and convenient, it allowed modification of the basic shell to incorporate different pouches for e.g. 'Port Said' SMG (this is the Egyptian copy of the Swedish K) magazines, AK 'banana' magazines, or as here, RPD drum magazines."

[scttgillies]

Is this the 82 pattern rig?

That one is an issued chest rig, mid 90s onwards. the belton the left is to attach the resi pouch onto. Mainly used in NI and in armoured units.

[Royal]

That one is an issued chest rig, mid 90s onwards. the belton the left is to attach the resi pouch onto. Mainly used in NI and in armoured units.

Yep, that's the PLCE issue version. The only real difference to the original 42 pattern is the belt for the ressie.

[Gleipnir]

Okay, thanks for the info!

1. Photo of Egyptian battle-vest 1973
2. R Volstad illustration of ARVN vest
(1st Lt. ARVN Abn. Div. 1972)
notes: "It was popular among the Vietnamese to have various styles of combat vests and rain jacket made at personal expense."

[GG]

That one is an issued chest rig, mid 90s onwards. the belton the left is to attach the resi pouch onto. Mainly used in NI and in armoured units.

Thanks! I knew it looked familiar, I just couldn't remember where I had seen it.

[Gleipnir]

......I recall seeing a painting in the Military Uniforms book of a SBS operator with a chest rig, from the Falklands War




The 'SBS chest rig' mentioned in the first post is the Butyl rig that GG mentions.
European development could largely be attributed to Arktis who, by copying the 'SBS' rubberised butyl nylon chest rig and making it available on the open market to tremendous demand by soldiers (so much so that the MOD eventually developed their own version of the Arktis rig!). Incidentally, the Arktis rigs were known as '42' and '45' after the RM CDO designations and were initially avail in OD and DPM. It must also be mentioned that slightly earlier, the SASS also had a number of vests designs (such as the COP vest) which were reputedly developed from captured Argentine examples in the Falklands.


Just thought I would add these images to the thread.
I also have a black & white photo of a SBS swimmer/canoeist wearing a rig that could be either the butyl or arktis 42- it is a very grainy image and lacks detail and contrast, but if any one would like to see it I will post it.