Army deserter seeks asylum in Germany over Iraq

[Fade]

Army deserter seeks asylum in Germany over Iraq
Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:25pm EST

By Andreas Buerger

FRANKFURT (*******) - A U.S. soldier who deserted his unit to avoid returning to Iraq has applied for asylum in Germany, saying the Iraq war was illegal and that he could not support the "heinous acts" taking place.

Andre Shepherd, 31, who served in Iraq between September 2004 and February 2005 as an Apache helicopter mechanic in the 412th Aviation Support Battalion, has been living in Germany since deserting last year.

"When I read and heard about people being ripped to shreds from machine guns or being blown to bits by the Hellfire missiles I began to feel ashamed about what I was doing," Shepherd told a Frankfurt news conference Thursday.

"I could not in good conscience continue to serve."
Story continued....
(http://www.*******.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE4AQ73C20081127?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true)

[philbob]

Story continued....
(http://www.*******.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE4AQ73C20081127?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true)


ugh a another pog complaining about things he hasn't done and cannot confirm asking for assylum in a foreign country rather then facing the consequences of his actions...

[Britboy]

ugh a another pog complaining about things he hasn't done and cannot confirm asking for assylum in a foreign country rather then facing the consequences of his actions...

Surely it is the actions of others, that he is enabling, which is bothering him (allegedly)?

[Macs.]

So before applying for his job he didn't know what a Apache is doing... No one told him ? He couldn't guess that ? It's literally a flying weapon with guns and rockets strapped to it...

[Britboy]

So before applying for his job he didn't know what a Apache is doing... No one told him ? He couldn't guess that ? It's literally a flying weapon with guns and rockets strapped to it...

Aye, but it depends to what purposes and ends that weapon is used. And how, as well. Does the end justify the means?

I don't know whats going on in the lads head, but some people believe the military should be in the 'self-defence of the home country only' game whilst others are more accepting of foreign intervention. Some believe ROE should be tight, others not.

I suppose it depends on when he joined really, before the current campaigns, or after, when he already could have informed himself as to just what was going on.

[muck]

I'm curious about the further development in this case. Usually our country grants asylum to all sorts of people including mobsters and terrorists, so why not also to a deserted soldier? After all, it's a country that opposes the war in Iraq more than any else.

[tea drinker]

hmmm, it's true he should have known what he was getting into.
I understand how someone could get a bit fvcked up about the situation - not everyone is "built that way", but could he not look for a transfer to a unit not remotely engaged with combat?

[Connaught Ranger]

Surely it is the actions of others, that he is enabling, which is bothering him (allegedly)?

Just what did he think would be the end result of his job, in his chosen profession?

He joined the military voluntarily, and now wants out.:roll:

That's one of the things about the military they don't care anything about what Joe Blow thinks, he there to do a job, he knew that when he joined up.


"When I read and heard about people being ripped to shreds from machine guns or being blown to bits by the Hellfire missiles I began to feel ashamed about what I was doing,"Whats this second-hand Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome:roll:

[Britboy]

hmmm, it's true he should have known what he was getting into.
I understand how someone could get a bit fvcked up about the situation - not everyone is "built that way", but could he not look for a transfer to a unit not remotely engaged with combat?

It is possible he just feels sick with the whole thing and wants rid, completely.

It would have been far easier if he recognised he was a conscientious objector before volunteering to join. I think it takes a certain amount of courage to be an objector when the zeitgeist of the time is very much heading the opposite way, and I absolutely wouldn't have a drama with that, had that happened.

However this man did join, and now has contractual obligations to fulfil. A confusing case, I'm not sure what the proper outcome could be. Perhaps its possible he use the trade he was taught by the military in a non-military, but still for-the-good-of-the-state, role; such as repairing air ambulances, coastguard helos and such? A sort of inter-govt-agency transfer if you will...

Or they may just throw him in prison; or he may continue to live happily in Germany. Remains to be seen, I'm no extradition law\UCMJ expert.

[PeterG]

I'm actually quite impressed that we don't hear this sort of thing all the time, considering the huge number of troops that have served in Iraq and Afghanistan - many of them in multiple tours.. I have nothing but the highest respect for the fact that the vast majority keep on serving, despite the hardship and strain on themselves and their loved ones.

[XRAY]

Sounds to me that it is just an excuse for him not to return to Iraq and perform his duties. These kind of people make me sick, there is alot of people who can't serve or can't return to duty and this guy goes to another country to keep from going back.

[tsuri]

Sounds to me that it is just an excuse for him not to return to Iraq and perform his duties. These kind of people make me sick, there is alot of people who can't serve or can't return to duty and this guy goes to another country to keep from going back.

You can also see it like this: If you have a unit in Iraq and you cannot depend on a part of them, would you not rather leave those guys at home?
He might chicken out or disobey orders if he is already so eager to run away.

I wonder why he chose Germany though, he has to know that we only accept asylum seekers that do not come from safe countries. The US is considered safe, so his case is very bad. He will likely get deported once the US request this.

[LineDoggie]

an Apache mechanic? :roll: sounds like little Andre more likely got into some UCMJ actionable area and ran like the Bee-yotch he is.


He a F_cking Coward, end of.......

[Bulletproof]

Oh wait! The 30mm and hellfires weren't for the bugs infestation?


an Apache mechanic? :roll: sounds like little Andre more likely got into some UCMJ actionable area and ran like the Bee-yotch he is.


He a F_cking Coward, end of.......

How can he be a coward? He's a ****ing mecano!

[merpho]

Somebody finally had the balls to refuse to serve in Cheney's bogus war.

[Wildgoose]

"When I read and heard about people being ripped to shreds from machine guns or being blown to bits by the Hellfire missiles I began to feel ashamed about what I was doing," Shepherd told a Frankfurt news conference Thursday.

What the hell did he think machine guns and Hellfire missiles do to people-- burst overhead in puffy clouds of rainbows, cotton candy and sunshine?????

Just another deployment dodge.

[LineDoggie]

Somebody finally had the balls to refuse to serve in Cheney's bogus war.Your an idiot, and thats the nicest I can phrase it.

[Macs.]

Somebody finally had the balls to refuse to serve in Cheney's bogus war.

He joined in 2004.

[XRAY]

Your an idiot, and thats the nicest I can phrase it.
I second that times a million!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oldsoak]

Somebody finally had the balls to refuse to serve in Cheney's bogus war.

Tell you what goes one better - blokes who dont like the war but who stand by their mates and still serve. They know it could kill them, they dont like it and they still go into combat and deliver the terms and conditions they signed for.
If he was that good, he'd be stateside and taking it on the chin. Others have.

[kuttless]

Its sounds fishey at best. I dont like the "I didnt know what that the Apache kills people" defense. Dudes just looking for a way out. I hope it dont get it

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

What would happen if he went to his C.O and said he didnt want to go???
is there a procedure for this?

serious question.

[Macs.]

I wonder why he chose Germany though, he has to know that we only accept asylum seekers that do not come from safe countries. The US is considered safe, so his case is very bad. He will likely get deported once the US request this.

The law has one catch: Normally he couldn't get asylum, however there is a regulation that says that people who desert because they are deployed to war that is violating international law are eligible for asylum. So that's what he/his lawyer is gonna try.

[socom6]

Somebody finally had the balls to refuse to serve in Cheney's bogus war.

Pfft another stupid dumbass nub joins to just to post crap.:roll:

Get lost n00b.:bash:

[tsuri]

The law has one catch: Normally he couldn't get asylum, however there is a regulation that says that people who desert because they are deployed to war that is violating international law are eligible for asylum. So that's what he/his lawyer is gonna try.

Jup. But currently the US is in Iraq on an invitation of a democratically elected government. That means there is no war going on. Even German courts will have to accept this. But it could buy him time..

[BloodyTalon]

I'm just curious how he's gonna try to convince the court that in his 4 years of service he never thought this
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5307/ah64apachecjkbyjufbg11gv7.jpg
was designed to kill people.

[Midav]

I feel for the guy! He must have thought he was working with software :(

http://www.apache.org/

Those bad recruiters must have filled him with bull! Typical. Just trying to make quotas.

p-)

[Hippo]

somebody finally had the balls to refuse to serve in cheney's bogus war.

dohohohohohohoh!!!

[merpho]

Thanks for the welcome. Now that you have called me names, prove me wrong.

[LineDoggie]

Thanks for the welcome. Now that you have called me names, prove me wrong.

PUBLIC LAW 170-243

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml


Show me a Cheney having sponsored the bill, or having voted on it.

there were 77 Senators and 296 Congressmen who voted "Yeah"

[LazerLordz]

Cheney's bogus war or not, he signed up voluntarily during the war. There's no excuse for saying that he didn't know he would be engaged in that war.

C'mon, he's just a CSS chap, someone should tell him to be grateful that he wasn't grinding meat out in the frontlines.

[Bulletproof]

PUBLIC LAW 170-243

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml


Show me a Cheney having sponsored the bill, or having voted on it.

there were 77 Senators and 296 Congressmen who voted "Yeah"

That doesn't make it more legal...

[LineDoggie]

That doesn't make it more legal... It does in the United States.... your mileage may vary

[Bulletproof]

It does in the United States.... your mileage may vary
Then what's the point of signing treaties and be a member of the UN if it to walk away everytime someone say no? Don't tell me creating a wave of democracy in mid-east by taking down Iraq was so important to your beloved senators and congressmen...

[Wildgoose]

Well there you have it. Elementary Civics 101, merpho, are you satisfied?

[Bulletproof]

^ He's out on vacation.

[LineDoggie]

Then what's the point of signing treaties and be a member of the UN if it to walk away everytime someone say no? Don't tell me creating a wave of democracy in mid-east by taking down Iraq was so important to your beloved senators and congressmen...


"Every time someone say no"? :roll:




In what way is National Sovereignity subjugated by being a UN member? does your country follow to the letter every single UN resolution since 1945? Has the UN voted a resolution that declared the war in Iraq to be Illegal? if so what is the resolution number?

MY country's elected Leadership authorized My country's Military to use force against Iraq, Thats good enough for me

[Bulletproof]

In what way is National Sovereignity subjugated by being a UN member?

"All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."


Does your country follow to the letter every single UN resolution since 1945? Has the UN voted a resolution that declared the war in Iraq to be Illegal? if so what is the resolution number?

Wtf does it have to do with the war in Iraq? If I jump from a bridge are you going to follow me?

No that's right there's is no resolution. That doesn't make it more legitimate, since all the reasons invoked were false or blatant lies.


MY country's elected Leadership authorized My country's Military to use force against Iraq, Thats good enough for me

Let me guess, Patriot Act ftw too? Please spare me.

[LineDoggie]

In other words you dont have a resolution number to uphold your point, you just want to kvetch about the USA... whatever floats your boat :roll:

[LaoSexMachine]

"All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."



Wtf does it have to do with the war in Iraq? If I jump from a bridge are you going to follow me?

No that's right there's is no resolution. That doesn't make it more legitimate, since all the reasons invoked were false or blatant lies.



Let me guess, Patriot Act ftw too? Please spare me.


The war in Iraq was approved by the Lawmakers in the US and that is ultimately the one that is recognized here in America.

[cone256]

How many countries participated in the invasion and then the subsequent rebuilding of the country?? Hmm I guess not too many countries thought it was a bad idea. If it was so illegal why didn't the UN take action against the US, oh that's right because we provide almost all of the funding for the programs within the UN while other countries complain about how we're not doing enough. Wah fvcking wah

[Midav]

Guys.... we have enough threads on whether the war was legal or not. Drop it already!

This thread is about an Army deserter. He knew what he was getting into as he joined the military... an organization that was at war as he joined. I don't feel sorry for him.

Legality issues should be taken up in any of the previous made threads.

[Bulletproof]

In other words you dont have a resolution number to uphold your point, you just want to kvetch about the USA... whatever floats your boat :roll:

"All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."

Any other bright conclusions? Shouldn't even need a ****ing resolution. Anayway arguing with you is totally useless.

[Macs.]

How many countries participated in the invasion and then the subsequent rebuilding of the country?? Hmm I guess not too many countries thought it was a bad idea.

Alot of countries did, but I doubt that most did it because they were so afraid of Iraq, but simply because they knew it would "buy" them support from the US. The invasion was only carried out by 4 countries.

Albania, Angola, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Hondurs, Salomon Islands, Tonga, Uganda etc - Some of these countries don't even have a military.


If it was so illegal why didn't the UN take action against the US, oh that's right because we provide almost all of the funding for the programs within the UN while other countries complain about how we're not doing enough. Wah fvcking wah

The EU as a whole is is funding more.


The war in Iraq was approved by the Lawmakers in the US and that is ultimately the one that is recognized here in America.

Then why did the US try so hard to gain authorisation from the UN when it didn't matter in the end ? Why are still so many people defending the war with the reason that it happened because Iraq didn't follow the UN resolution, yet in the next sentence the UN is the devil and not to be taken serious ?

Why did Bush until the latest second before OIF base his decision to invade Iraq on them not cooperating with the UN Resolution ?

It's all about picking things that support/ed the war, no matter from what side they come, and then ignore the same sides when they don't fit the view. As it was with the evidence for the invasion. It's politics.

It's a matter of little details to make the legality or illegality of OIF shining, alot of these resolutions are full with "lawyer talk" that can be bend and grey areas. It's a matter of how courts interprete it, IMO.

[cone256]

The EU as a whole is is funding more.





The EU is not a single country. Therefore it does not count.

[muck]

Does it matter if the war in Iraq was legal or not? Soldiers have deserted their posts in every war before regardless of their legal status.
The question is if a deserter should be granted asylum by us as we are allies of the United States and the nation in question does not intend to do something to him that otherwise would automatically save him from extradiction.

I understand his situation and feel pity for him, but he volunteered to do the job, he was no draftee. He is no coward in my eyes but a dumbass because he was not able to assess all the consequences when he joined the military.

[FlintHillBilly]

Somebody finally had the balls to refuse to serve in Cheney's bogus war.


Go somewhere else troll. Let me guess your one of those brainwashed individuals who surfs abovetopsecret dot com and believes everything the government gets involved with is a conspiracy. Please, you probably picked one of the best forums to post that sort of rhetoric on troll!

[tea drinker]

Shepherd, who enlisted in January 2004,

That made him 27 when he enlisted.... so surely he had as much sense then as he will ever have, not like some young guy straight from school could make a wrong decision, and 2004 - that's nearly 3 years into war on terror, so agin he knew the mil was involved in a war.

Why on earth did he join up?

I have sympathy for any soldier, it's a tough job, and can be horrendous..... but he really brought this on himself.

His claim is kinda weak too, even civil jobs are gorier than his, I have a friend in the Health and Safety, he investigates accidents, everything from guys electrified to a crisp to crushed little kids - really harrowing stuff. Another friend is a fireman - he tells all sorts of stories, like looking for body parts after car crashes e.g. pulling severed hands from the ditch.

[Britboy]

The EU is not a single country. Therefore it does not count.

Slightly odd stance. The word you are looking for is 'state', not country. I could say the US is not a single state, therefore it does not count?

[cone256]

Slightly odd stance. The word you are looking for is 'state', not country. I could say the US is not a single state, therefore it does not count?

No the word I was looking for is country not state. State has more than on meaning and you are mix and matching them to meet your need. A state (referring to a country) is not the same thing as a state in the US. That would be equivalent to me saying that all of your provinces in Europe are really independent countries.

[Laconian]

He joined the Army in '04 - after the Iraq war started. He spent 6 mos in Iraq (Sept 04 - Feb 05) fixing Apaches completely unaware that they are weapons platforms designed to kill people and blow stuff up, got posted to Germany and now because he thinks he might get sent back wants to desert. Bag him.

[ed316]

He should not get asylum and the Army should punish him to the full extent of military law. This is a shame. Living your buddies hanging. We called these a-holes "buddy fvckers".

[Fage]

Nov 27,2008
http://www.*******.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20081127&t=2&i=6992869&w=192&r=2008-11-27T202529Z_01_BTRE4AQ1KQO00_RTROPTP_0_GERMANY (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:launchArticleSlideshow();)
By Andreas Buerger

FRANKFURT (*******) - A U.S. soldier who deserted his unit to avoid returning to Iraq has applied for asylum in Germany, saying the Iraq war was illegal and that he could not support the "heinous acts" taking place.

Andre Shepherd, 31, who served in Iraq between September 2004 and February 2005 as an Apache helicopter mechanic in the 412th Aviation Support Battalion, has been living in Germany since deserting last year.

"When I read and heard about people being ripped to shreds from machine guns or being blown to bits by the Hellfire missiles I began to feel ashamed about what I was doing," Shepherd told a Frankfurt news conference Thursday.

"I could not in good conscience continue to serve."

Shepherd, originally from Cleveland, Ohio and ranked as an army specialist, applied for asylum in Germany Wednesday, said Tim Huber from the Military Counseling Network, a non-military group which is assisting him.

According to U.S. law, soldiers who desert during a time of war can face the death penalty.

The soldier said he was particularly hopeful he would be granted asylum in Germany, a staunch opponent of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, due to the legacy of the post-war trials of Nazi officials, notably in Nuremberg in 1945-1949.

"Here in Germany it was established that everyone, even a soldier, must take responsibility for his or her actions, no matter how many superiors are giving orders," he said.

Shepherd, who enlisted in January 2004, is only the second U.S. soldier to have applied to Germany for asylum "in a similar situation," said Claudia Moebus from the government's department for migration. The earlier application was later withdrawn.

The specialist was posted to Germany in 2005 where he undertook desk jobs, but he gradually began questioning the justification for the Iraq war and began worrying he would be sent back to serve there, said Huber.
"That's when he went AWOL," he added.

Earlier this year, Jeremy Hinzman, an American who applied for refugee status in Canada after deserting the U.S. Army when he received orders to go to Iraq, said he would appeal a deportation order returning him to the United States.

Another U.S. deserter, Robin Long, was deported from Canada in July and sent to jail in Colorado.

(Writing by Josie Cox; Editing by Sophie Hares)

Source:http://www.*******.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE4AQ73C20081127

[Connaught Ranger]

To bad its a repost!!!

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=146877

[Bia]

Is there a way to say "look I dont wanna fight but I dont wanna quit/desert" ?

[LineDoggie]

Duplicate post /thread


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=146877

[Connaught Ranger]

Is there a way to say "look I dont wanna fight but I dont wanna quit/desert" ?


Yeah dont bother to join up in the first place.:roll:

[Bia]

What are a soldiers real options if they simply say they cant fight....but dont want to desert either?

Just curious.

[LineDoggie]

Could have applied for C.O. Status, but that gets gone through with a fine tooth comb. One deserter scumbag who fled to Canada said he would fight in Afghanistan :roll: a REAL C.O. wouldnt fight at all, even in self defence. You'd be surprised how many that trips up.

DOD Directive 1300.6 (Nov. 21 , 2003)
DOD Directive 1332.14 (Nov. 21, 2003)

Those handle the process


This asshat had no direct Combat Mission or Exposure. He wasnt Flight Crew, He was a Mechanic (15R10) working on the Apache. The Apache is listed by the Army as a Attack Helicopter. He would have been well versed in AIT about the craft, it's weapons systems and capability. He couldnt have missed it's 30mm Cannon, or Rocket missile hardpoints.


http://www.minnesotanationalguard.org/units/assets/mos/15R.pdf

Theres no way this person didnt know the crafts purpose for being on the battlefield. It wasnt a Flying Mister Softee truck handing out Sprinkle Cones to Hadji with unicorns painted on its side.

And to Boot, by his own admission he never saw any killings, just Heard about them. Someone heard "Jeff Spicoli" stabbed "Mr. Hand", didnt make it true.

Andre the Coward just doesnt want to man up, his silica problem is terminal

[Hollis]

What are a soldiers real options if they simply say they cant fight....but dont want to desert either?

Just curious.


People enlist for all sorts of reason, but they generally fight for each other. It is not about the person themselves, it is about their Brothers. That boils down to, they are not betraying the military, the government, etc, they are betraying their Bros.

That is the short of it, there is a lot more, but it would take a book to cover it.

H.

[LineDoggie]

Yup, and because this scum deserted someone else had to take his place and deploy, an all encompassing Blue Falcon

[r_g_r]

funny how ppl dont understand that imagination and actuall real life expirience may differ.
he may have joined the forces during wartime, and he "knew" what his task is and what's his work causing to other people. but there is a difference in just thinking about it and actually pulling it off.
so maybe he just realized it time after time to a full extent, what he is really doing there.

oh and hi mp.net, been a lurker since now.

[Laconian]

funny how ppl dont understand that imagination and actuall real life expirience may differ.
he may have joined the forces during wartime, and he "knew" what his task is and what's his work causing to other people. but there is a difference in just thinking about it and actually pulling it off.
so maybe he just realized it time after time to a full extent, what he is really doing there.

oh and hi mp.net, been a lurker since now.

Oh, I see, he should just be able to say, "Oops, my bad. This is way more serious than I thought and it freaks me out, ya know from a moral and legal standpoint. I was, like, all gung ho for the money and stuff but now, it's like a total bummer and I hear we do real bad stuff to people and I don't want to be in anymore. But I like Germany, so can I just stay here?"

Or how about this, he's just a freeloading piece of excrement. He is unhappy that he might get redeployed to a combat zone. He is a soldier. You go where you are sent and you do what you are told. His only moral obligation is not obey any illegal orders and he hasn't been given any. He is a Apache mechanic, by his own admission he has never witnessed the horrors of combat. IMO he is yet another spineless turd who will have to be kept free by men better than himself.

[Connaught Ranger]

funny how ppl dont understand that imagination and actuall real life expirience may differ.
he may have joined the forces during wartime, and he "knew" what his task is and what's his work causing to other people. but there is a difference in just thinking about it and actually pulling it off.
so maybe he just realized it time after time to a full extent, what he is really doing there.

oh and hi mp.net, been a lurker since now.

funny how many ppl who have served, continue to serve, recognise a piece of sh*t when they hear / see one, this guy is just looking for an excuse not to do the job he was trained for.

Sympathy would be given to a man who had at least served in the front lines on the sharp end, this free-loader didn't even do that. He is a R.E.M.F. to use the American vernacular.

Germany should hand his a s s back to the American Military Police a soon as possible.

50 years in a military Stockade should cure his imagination and "pain".



Connaught Ranger.

[Mackie]

Sure he joined in a time of blind patriotism but like Ranger said he decided to join so he have to face consequences.
Germany cannot give him asylum. Too much US troops are stationed here.
And lot of them serving in combat units handle much more stress.

[Currahee 1SG]

Its difficult having to check the torque on those blades. Dude is a medical wonder, being able to stand upright without a backbone.

Seriously.

I just can't even begin to understand how a person such as this could abandon the Soldiers he is supposed to support. Then to have the audacity to attempt to blame a serious illness on his problems. I am most certain that he is first in line to attend whatever gore ridden movie that comes out though. But some will clap him on the back and tell him that he has done a good thing. I wish I could be there when he is interviewing for a job.

[Bia]

People enlist for all sorts of reason, but they generally fight for each other. It is not about the person themselves, it is about their Brothers. That boils down to, they are not betraying the military, the government, etc, they are betraying their Bros.

That is the short of it, there is a lot more, but it would take a book to cover it.

H.
I understand this and am not agreeing with the douche...

I was simply curious to standard operating proceedure for this type of situation?

Why is it when I ask a question to some opposition.... people assume I am with the opposition? Just like that asshat in another thread keeps assuming I am a liberal hippy.

:P

[LineDoggie]

It's a Visceral thing. Soldiers take a supposed comrade deserting them just before a fight very personally. No punishment for a deserter is too severe. If they do it in a Fight they risk getting shot by Frontline Justice.


I had a Kid at Ft. Hood Desert us just before we shipped to Iraq. Not only did the scumbag leave us, but got his roommate into a Jam because the Battle Buddy had no idea Kid was going to go rabbit. I hope "Mike H" rots in ****ing hell, Andre too. Some poor bastard had to take this punks place, someone who probably just got back from deployment, so not only does Andre screw his Family, and his Buddies and their families, but this replacement as well.

I hope Andre Shepard Eats the Muzzle of a 12 Gauge soon

[Weasel]

Sure he joined in a time of blind patriotism but like Ranger said he decided to join so he have to face consequences.
Germany cannot give him asylum. Too much US troops are stationed here.
And lot of them serving in combat units handle much more stress.

We can give asylum to whoever we want. We don´t need to ask for permission.

[Hollis]

OMG I understand this and am not agreeing with the douche...

I was simply curious to standard operating proceedure for this type of situation?

Why is it when I ask a question to some opposition.... people assume I am with the opposition? Just like that asshat in another thread keeps assuming I am a liberal hippy.

I simply like asking questions.... but you guys sure make it difficult to be curious.


?? I just thought you asked a question on opinon and I misread your question.

I am not sure what SOP is, maybe depends on Commanding officer on how far he wants to take it.

We had a Marine decide to be a CO, after he was assigned to a Company in RVN. They (Command) made his the professional battalion ****ter burner.

Some one mentioned that today, the person is kicked out of the military and not much else done. I am clueless on what is done. Sorry the mistake.

Maybe I hadn't had my coffee yet.

[Macs.]

The other thing is: Obviously he still is a member of the US Military, since there are US Army outposts and MPs all across the country wouldn't it be possible that they simply arrest him ?

Normally US MPs have certain juristical powers within Germany when US military personal is involved in a crime/accident.

[Bia]

I was just assuming he would be...

discharged with no benifits
told to F-off and forced back to duty
arrested/court-martial
ass kicked by peers
reassigned

you know... what usually happens?

[tsuri]

Normally US MPs have certain juristical powers within Germany when US military personal is involved in a crime/accident.

When he applies for asylum status, he is temporarily protected during the time which he is granted to prove his status. I do not remember how long it exactly was, but it is like 3 months tops
He probably cannot be arrested right now. But it is a sad fate, even if he was somehow awarded political asylum, he will never be able to return home ever again just because he has moral objections over fixing a machine.

[r_g_r]

Oh, I see, he should just be able to say, "Oops, my bad. This is way more serious than I thought and it freaks me out, ya know from a moral and legal standpoint. I was, like, all gung ho for the money and stuff but now, it's like a total bummer and I hear we do real bad stuff to people and I don't want to be in anymore. But I like Germany, so can I just stay here?"

maybe, yes. aren't you allowed to change your mind based on what you have learned/expirienced?



funny how many ppl who have served, continue to serve, recognise a piece of sh*t when they hear / see one, this guy is just looking for an excuse not to do the job he was trained for.


so i guess you have talked to him enough to be sure of that?

you all talk as if it is so easy, just say "no i dont want anymore" and seek asylum anywhere. how do you know his decision is the result of a heavy thinking about himself, his life and the way it is heading? how dare you to call people cowards just because they realise they can not continue fullfilling their task?
whats about these soldiers in ww1, who have never seen a fight but went mentaly insane. were they cowards, too?
dont judge before you know the whole story.

[Bia]

dont judge before you know the whole story.Many of the fellas here have served in some hard situations... so their opinions count... no?

[Maine Finn]

maybe, yes. aren't you allowed to change your mind based on what you have learned/expirienced?

No.




you all talk as if it is so easy, just say "no i dont want anymore" and seek asylum anywhere. how do you know his decision is the result of a heavy thinking about himself, his life and the way it is heading? how dare you to call people cowards just because they realise they can not continue fullfilling their task?
whats about these soldiers in ww1, who have never seen a fight but went mentaly insane. were they cowards, too?
dont judge before you know the whole story.

There's a difference between what this guy is trying to do and folks who are legitimately unable to do their jobs.

Do you know the whole story?

[LineDoggie]

you all talk as if it is so easy, just say "no i dont want anymore" and seek asylum anywhere. WTF?, Over who said that?



how do you know his decision is the result of a heavy thinking about himself, his life and the way it is heading? Because as stated there is a Procedure for one to become a Conscientious Objector, this man didnt follow it. Likely , there are other reasons for his going AWOL, then Deserting. Fear of some disciplinary action for unknown reasons. Failure to make Sergeant, etc.



how dare you to call people cowards just because they realise they can not continue fullfilling their task?

As a Mechanic, he faced no Combat directly, he stayed on a secure airfield. To any Combat Arms Soldier his life in a combat zone was Gravy. He faced no hardships of watching friends die, no worries of being killed on Patrol. So yeah, I call him a Coward, I call him a worthless yellow cur without shred one of concern for his fellow Soldiers.



whats about these soldiers in ww1, who have never seen a fight but went mentaly insane. were they cowards, too?
dont judge before you know the whole story.
Never seen a fight but went mentally insane??? WTF?

From what? Your making no sense whatsoever. You should really research, or lurk more before posting such a seriously flawed non informed opinion towards posters here who HAVE faced Combat, HAVE seen friends Die, Seen them Wounded, Have been wounded and still Manned up, Rucked Up, Grabbed their sac and Continued the Mission.

If your seriously expecting Sympathy for poor wittle Andre, look in the Dictionary between Schit and Syphillis for it.

[BloodyTalon]

you all talk as if it is so easy, just say "no i dont want anymore" and seek asylum anywhere. how do you know his decision is the result of a heavy thinking about himself, his life and the way it is heading? how dare you to call people cowards just because they realise they can not continue fullfilling their task?
whats about these soldiers in ww1, who have never seen a fight but went mentaly insane. were they cowards, too?
dont judge before you know the whole story.
Linedoggie's done a good job chewing your ass out for such a phenomenally stupid quote, but let me chime in with this:

There is an atronomically huge difference between spending years in a cramped, muddy, unsanitary, sometimes even corpse filled trench with little food or sleep and Andre the Giant Blue Falcon's situation. All he did was occasionally emerge out of one of the air-conditioned buildings in his FOB to fix up a helicopter. Yet, according to him (and you), the experience of being the quintessential fobbit was so traumatizing and insanity-inducing that he has sworn off the military and, rather than hardening up for another few months until his contract was up (which, considering he enlisted in 2004, wouldn't have been long) he decided to cower away to Germany and hope that they'll save them from the Big Bad Army that's wants him to...UPHOLD HIS SWORN CONTRACT AND FIX AN APACHE (insert scary music).

The man is a coward and a Blue Falcon, pure and simple. If the German government and court system has any resemblance of logic behind them, than this prick will be sent back home to spend a few fun filled years in beautiful Ft. Leavenworth.

[Sloppy Joe2]

The other thing is: Obviously he still is a member of the US Military, since there are US Army outposts and MPs all across the country wouldn't it be possible that they simply arrest him ?

Normally US MPs have certain juristical powers within Germany when US military personal is involved in a crime/accident. MPs shouldnt and will not waste their time searching for scum like this.

unfortunetly the Army is going soft on many who desert or go AWOL before deployment, had a **** bag who went AWOL right before we went to NTC and didnt come back until my unit returned from Iraq. what happened? got an article 15, and some extra duty and that was it at least in the sense of formal punishment :bash:

when i was evacd to Balad there was another cat their who being sent home officially for TBI, but really he was just dealing with the fact that 18 comrades in his company had been killed in a very short amount of time during
Operation Arrowhead Ripper in Baquba. i held no resentment towards him at all.

while i was being treated in Germany, there was a CO there who was an 11B who joined after the Iraq war had started and his unit had never been in contact. i called him a Buddy ****er and a immature coward, he goes and tells the hospital staff what i said and i get a counsiling statement.

one thing that many who havent served dont realize is everytime someone deserts or goes AWOL, it puts incredible strain on the remaining soldiers who have to pick up the slack for the buddy ****er and trust me it is a lot of slack especially in combat unit.

while being treated at Fort Bliss, there was a soldier who was being Medically discharged for severe PTSD (50% disability pay) for seeing an IED blow up from his guard tower. i know everyone reacts differently but come on.......

[PeterG]

There is an atronomically huge difference between spending years in a cramped, muddy, unsanitary, sometimes even corpse filled trench with little food or sleep and Andre the Giant Blue Falcon's situation. All he did was occasionally emerge out of one of the air-conditioned buildings in his FOB to fix up a helicopter. Yet, according to him (and you), the experience of being the quintessential fobbit was so traumatizing and insanity-inducing that he has sworn off the military and, rather than hardening up for another few months until his contract was up (which, considering he enlisted in 2004, wouldn't have been long) he decided to cower away to Germany and hope that they'll save them from the Big Bad Army that's wants him to...UPHOLD HIS SWORN CONTRACT AND FIX AN APACHE (insert scary music).

The man is a coward and a Blue Falcon, pure and simple. If the German government and court system has any resemblance of logic behind them, than this prick will be sent back home to spend a few fun filled years in beautiful Ft. Leavenworth.

You still don't know. Some develop mental disease simply from being away from their loved ones. That alone can be reason for certain people. I saw young strong men that couldn't deal with that when i served in the army here in Norway - no war in sight. 'Cowardice' had nothing to do with it. Many UN soldiers develop PTSD and other mental illness without ever having experienced real combat. I bet many of the Vietnam vets suffering PTSD never saw combat. The potential for it can be enough. And again: being away from home can make some feel very vulnerable and make them more susceptible to mental disorder. After multiple tours, some might lose their partner. Some might feel they are not there to see their children grow up. There can be all sorts of reason why someone feels unable to serve anymore - or is simply unwilling to do so any longer. Trying to take the moral high ground and claim that he 'can't be part of a killing machine anymore', can be a conscious or sub-conscious way of justifying it to yourself and others. Who knows?

The important thing is that this is still rare in the US armed forces. Morale has been impressively high - even in the period where losses in Iraq were much, much higher than today, and the entire war seemed hopeless. So there is no need to crucify the odd man who desperately tries to quit the army, is it..? Better off without him.

[Connaught Ranger]

A U.S. soldier who deserted his unit to avoid returning to Iraq has applied for asylum in Germany, saying the Iraq war was illegal and that he could not support the "heinous acts" taking place.

By such actions he has been planning this for a while, if a genuine P.T.S.D. case, in my opinion he would have allowed himself to be judged by his peers after filing for a C.O.slot.

He either thinks he's smart or he has been offered advice by some "anti-war" outfit, who hope to use him as a test case for future cases.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

Many UN soldiers develop PTSD and other mental illness without ever having experienced real combat.

Peter, not to take this too far off topic, but soldiers from the Irish Military served continuously from 1978 to 2000 with U.N.I.F.I.L. many soldiers getting multiple missions, a couple I know, personally in excess of 15 tours in South Lebanon, away from family & friends, yet the incidence of P.T.S.D. is virtually nil, or has been used by a couple of them, as an excuse in defence in criminal charges after the soldier has left the military.

In my honest opinion, this guy is just chancing his arm, to get out without completing his contract, as for being away from family and friends while in Iraq as a big no-no, yet still does not explain how he can hack being away from home while in Germany, also a soldier has no say in whether a war is illegal or not, he is there to do his job.

This guy needs to be paraded in front of his unit on live national tv, and a big yellow paint stripe applied to his back, then marched in Leveanworth for 40 years.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[PeterG]

This guy needs to be paraded in front of his unit on live national tv, and a big yellow paint stripe applied to his back, then marched in Leveanworth for 40 years.

Connaught Ranger.:)

Why not shoot him? The days of draconian punishment for 'cowards' is long gone. The army don't need this guy, and they don't have a general problem with morale, so there really is no need to make an example of him.

[Sloppy Joe2]

Why not shoot him? The days of draconian punishment for 'cowards' is long gone. The army don't need this guy, and they don't have a general problem with morale, so there really is no need to make an example of him.

in my experience, seeing the ****-bags being humiliated made me happy.
:)

[Mackie]

We can give asylum to whoever we want. We don´t need to ask for permission.

No............

[r_g_r]

thank you PeterG, good to see i'm not the only person trying to be as objective as possible until we know the thruth.


Many of the fellas here have served in some hard situations... so their opinions count... no?

my opinion is to not judge before you know his personal situation and reasons.
i have NEVER said something about how the situation in a warzone affect people in general. i just said that people react differnt to the same situations and therefor you can not judge him simply by saying other can take the suffering the better, he has to perform the same way.


No.

i hope you are joking.



There's a difference between what this guy is trying to do and folks who are legitimately unable to do their jobs.

Do you know the whole story?

no, that's why i'm not judging on him.



WTF?, Over who said that?

i get the impression that the majority of the posters are of the opinion that he is just to lazy to get his job done and just uses this as an excuse to go on to an extended holiday. while this may be true, we dont know for sure yet(at the time i've posted my comment). imo, a court should judge him, not we.



Because as stated there is a Procedure for one to become a Conscientious Objector, this man didnt follow it. Likely , there are other reasons for his going AWOL, then Deserting. Fear of some disciplinary action for unknown reasons. Failure to make Sergeant, etc.

well you know what? if his reasons for deserting are just of the things you mentioned, im all in for bashing him. but at the time typing this, i just dont know, and we should not judge him yet. thats all i'm saying.


As a Mechanic, he faced no Combat directly, he stayed on a secure airfield. To any Combat Arms Soldier his life in a combat zone was Gravy. He faced no hardships of watching friends die, no worries of being killed on Patrol. So yeah, I call him a Coward, I call him a worthless yellow cur without shred one of concern for his fellow Soldiers.

Never seen a fight but went mentally insane??? WTF?

From what? Your making no sense whatsoever. You should really research, or lurk more before posting such a seriously flawed non informed opinion towards posters here who HAVE faced Combat, HAVE seen friends Die, Seen them Wounded, Have been wounded and still Manned up, Rucked Up, Grabbed their sac and Continued the Mission.

If your seriously expecting Sympathy for poor wittle Andre, look in the Dictionary between Schit and Syphillis for it.

i'll answer those sentences in a short term: read what peterG wrote. it may be uncommon, it may be that this applies only for a small percentage, still it happend and surely will happen again.



There is an atronomically huge difference between spending years in a cramped, muddy, unsanitary, sometimes even corpse filled trench with little food or sleep and Andre the Giant Blue Falcon's situation. All he did was occasionally emerge out of one of the air-conditioned buildings in his FOB to fix up a helicopter. Yet, according to him (and you), the experience of being the quintessential fobbit was so traumatizing and insanity-inducing that he has sworn off the military and, rather than hardening up for another few months until his contract was up (which, considering he enlisted in 2004, wouldn't have been long) he decided to cower away to Germany and hope that they'll save them from the Big Bad Army that's wants him to...UPHOLD HIS SWORN CONTRACT AND FIX AN APACHE (insert scary music).

The man is a coward and a Blue Falcon, pure and simple. If the German government and court system has any resemblance of logic behind them, than this prick will be sent back home to spend a few fun filled years in beautiful Ft. Leavenworth.

first of, i DID NOT say his situation was unbearable for him. i said it COULD be, there is a difference.
and by talking about seeing no fights, i clearly did not mean sitting in a trench with your dead friends bodies around you being shelled 24/7. for some, just being part of that big warmachine is just to much sometimes.

[DreadNaught]

Really, if you don't want to hurt people avoid the military.

[Maine Finn]

i hope you are joking.

No, to be honest, I'm not.

I've had my own doubts and second thoughts about the Army since enlisting, but it doesn't matter. I signed that contract and that's binding. Doubts and second thoughts and all the rest have no place when there's a job to do. You go and you do it. When your contract expires, you can go out and cry to whoever about how the war is illegal. By then, you're not a burden on your unit and your buddies.

This guy signed the dotted line and agreed to obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over him, just like the rest of us. For him to turn around now, after having already served one deployment without complaint or issue, and say that he won't go back because of things that he's had nothing to do with all reeks of BS.

I'm sorry, but I have no respect for this joker. Hell, I see trainees every day who haven't even made it to their first unit saying that they don't want to deploy. If that's the mentality, why the hell did they bother enlisting in the first place? The same standard applies to them and to this guy.

[BloodyTalon]

first of, i DID NOT say his situation was unbearable for him. i said it COULD be, there is a difference.
and by talking about seeing no fights, i clearly did not mean sitting in a trench with your dead friends bodies around you being shelled 24/7. for some, just being part of that big warmachine is just to much sometimes.
Let me get this straight; you're not even talking about soldiers that either had to sit in the trenches, work in the few hospitals, or essentially partake in any role that exposed them to the horrors of war, but instead people who went "mentally insane" just because they were part of the war by association?

rofl rofl rofl oh wow. I don't know who's more pathetic in this case, the REMFs that you defend or you for thinking that your argument is somehow perfectly valid and justifies someone completely abandoning their post and putting further strain on his unit.

[Riot5]

If your in, your in for the long haul bucko.
Desertion is a serious crime, and I have no sympathy for someone who decided to up and run like that.

[BloodyTalon]

Ok people....

ALL started because of Osama and his minions.

Two wars, thousands of people on all sides dead bit still.

WHERE IS OSAMA???
wtf does that have to do with this Blue Falcon exactly?

[LineDoggie]

:roll: never mind, sometimes it amazes me that people think you can just leave whenever you fell like. You can tell those Posters have never served anywhere for even one day.

[Connaught Ranger]

Why not shoot him? The days of draconian punishment for 'cowards' is long gone. The army don't need this guy, and they don't have a general problem with morale, so there really is no need to make an example of him.

I do not agree with your assessment, shooting him would be Draconian and a waste of a bullet, a good flogging or keel-hauling if he was navy is as well, however nobody ever died from being humiliated, public humiliation of the stocks and a birching worked well for years till the "goody two shoes" brigade took over and removed all forms of discipline out of Western society, now when young thugs commit a crime we send them on a holiday as a reward for being misunderstood and coming from "broken" homes.:roll:

This piece of sh*t just wants out of his contract, he does not give a damn about the war, it just inconveniences his social life.

Connaught Ranger.

[philbob]

We can give asylum to whoever we want. We don´t need to ask for permission.

IF that is the case we can extradite who ever we want and dont need premission

[Narvaresearch]

IF that is the case we can extradite who ever we want and dont need premission

No, they're totally different things. :cantbeli:

It's not like he was on the front lines and couldn't take the heat. He was a mechanic. He believes the war to be wrong so he doesn't want to take part. In retrospect this could have saved a great many lives in other wars too.

I do realize where the problem is though. Especially if he signed up for the military in the first place!:|

[Connaught Ranger]

No, they're totally different things. :cantbeli:

It's not like he was on the front lines and couldn't take the heat. He was a mechanic. He believes the war to be wrong so he doesn't want to take part. In retrospect this could have saved a great many lives in other wars too.

I do realize where the problem is though. Especially if he signed up for the military in the first place!:|

In retrospect, its not down to the individual to make a country's foreign policy that's what we elect people to do.

I believe that by sending people to war, we have the chance to save many lives as well, I use the Allied response to nazi and Japanese aggression in WW2 as an example, do you think if men in the military were allowed to say "No! I am not doing that because its wrong," hitler and tojo would have stopped their campaigns:roll:.

Connaught Ranger

[Narvaresearch]

In retrospect, its not down to the individual to make a country's foreign policy that's what we elect people to do.

I believe that by sending people to war, we have the chance to save many lives as well, I use the Allied response to nazi and Japanese aggression in WW2 as an example, do you think if men in the military were allowed to say "No! I am not doing that because its wrong," hitler and tojo would have stopped their campaigns:roll:.

Connaught Ranger

Well you used my example but in the wrong context. Although many German troops were only fighting for the fatherland, if they would have known of the atrocious acts committed by Hitler and stopped fighting they could have saved a lot of trouble.

Then again, most German soldiers didn't know about these factors, and in all honesty the few who did say "no" and resist probably led to the death of many simple German people.

It's funny how those who were dodged the draft to fight for the Germans in World War II are probably noted as "heroes" by most people. It's all a matter of perspective, buddy.

(Though then again I can be wrong and he just got cold feet and decided to run to mama. I guess there is no real way of knowing so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt)

[LaoSexMachine]

Well you used my example but in the wrong context. Although many German troops were only fighting for the fatherland, if they would have known of the atrocious acts committed by Hitler and stopped fighting they could have saved a lot of trouble.

Then again, most German soldiers didn't know about these factors, and in all honesty the few who did say "no" and resist probably led to the death of many simple German people.

It's funny how those who were dodged the draft to fight for the Germans in World War II are probably noted as "heroes" by most people. It's all a matter of perspective, buddy.

(Though then again I can be wrong and he just got cold feet and decided to run to mama. I guess there is no real way of knowing so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt)

He volunteered. No one made him join.

[Narvaresearch]

He volunteered. No one made him join.

I noted my understanding of that in my original post. Things can change when you get up close and personal I'm sure. I'm not giving him an excuse, but I can at LEAST see where he is coming from as a general example. Basically I have a problem crying "coward" and all this nonsense.

[LaoSexMachine]

I noted my understanding of that in my original post. Things can change when you get up close and personal I'm sure. I'm not giving him an excuse, but I can at LEAST see where he is coming from as a general example. Basically I have a problem crying "coward" and all this nonsense.


If you are going to sign 4 years of your life away you better have a fvcking clue what you are signing up for. Did he think it was going to be the Salvation Army? Collecting money?

[Laconian]

I noted my understanding of that in my original post. Things can change when you get up close and personal I'm sure. I'm not giving him an excuse, but I can at LEAST see where he is coming from as a general example. Basically I have a problem crying "coward" and all this nonsense.

He was an Apache mechanic, he never got up close and personal to anything. Even by his own admission he was never exposed to anything bad. He just heard terrible things from other people.

[kato2k6]

If the German government and court system has any resemblance of logic behind them, than this prick will be sent back home to spend a few fun filled years in beautiful Ft. Leavenworth.
First off, he likely wouldn't be sent to Leavenworth, but stay in Germany for a couple years - USAREUR confinement facility, in Mannheim. At least until the prison will be closed, likely in a couple years.

Also, there recently was a German officer refusing to serve in Afghanistan - without going AWOL over it. He was moved off his post as per his wishes in the end, meaning German government agencies seem to not generally turn down selective conscientious objection currently. Then consider that he is threatened with a long prison term for his conscientious decision if his asylum request is denied. Those are things working in his favour.


Normally US MPs have certain juristical powers within Germany when US military personal is involved in a crime/accident.
Not since about 1990 anymore. US MP can not - by itself - act outside US premises (military, housing areas) without being asked to join in by German police. Of course if the guy would march up to the gate of a US base, they could always arrest him. The crime/accident thing is also limited to cases where all involved people are US military; e.g. the US MP have to hand over a soldier if a US civilian on German soil is the victim (this was recently the case in Heidelberg, for example). In this particular case, his status is of course somewhat muddy, which could work in either direction.

[Grunt1983]

What do you expect Pogs are nothing but piles of ****.

[Maine Finn]

What do you expect Pogs are nothing but piles of ****.

I'm sorry, what?

[Grunt1983]

I'm sorry, what? what did you expect from a scumbag pog?

[Macs.]

Grunt1983 are you retarded or are you just acting stupid ?

Yeah, those Pogs are really such scumbags, reparing and servicing vehicles and aircrafts, maintaining the frontline troops.

Just how stupid can you get ?

[Maine Finn]

what did you expect from a scumbag pog?

I'm a Pog. I find it difficult to compare Andre Shepherd to myself or any other Pog I know and serve with.

We are not all scumbags, though I doubt you would be saying that if you were to find yourself where I work.

[Connaught Ranger]

What do you expect Pogs are nothing but piles of ****.

I seriously doubt you have any service in the military whatsover with a dumb statement like that.:roll:

[ronnieraygun]

I'm a Pog. I find it difficult to compare Andre Shepherd to myself or any other Pog I know and serve with.

We are not all scumbags, though I doubt you would be saying that if you were to find yourself where I work.

I feel it necessary to double post this for the benefit of that idiot's situational awareness.

[Grunt1983]

Ok, i may have been a little out of line. Anyway what that clown said about what the cannon and hell fire missles do to people. What does he expect them to do, explode with candy. This guy should be put in prison.