UK. Tory MP Arrested

[Lazy Lob]

Unelected prime minister, opposition member arrested. Not Zimbabwe.


Senior Tory arrested over leaks
Conservative immigration spokesman Damian Green, was arrested earlier in connection with an investigation into a series of leaks from the Home Office.

He was held on suspicion of "conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office," the Metropolitan Police said.

He has not been charged but is being questioned by police. The Conservatives say he denies any wrongdoing.

It is believed to be connected to the arrest of a man suspected of being a Home Office whistleblower.

Series of leaks

The BBC understands that a junior Home Office official was suspended from duty ten days ago over a number of leaks and the matter was referred to police. He was arrested but not charged.

It follows a series of leaks, including the news that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a Commons cleaner and a letter from the home secretary warning that a recession could lead to a rise in crime.

The BBC understands Tory leader David Cameron is angry about what has happened and stands by Mr Green.

A spokesman for the Conservative Party said: "As shadow immigration minister, Mr Green has, on a number of occasions, legitimately revealed information which the Home Office chose not to make public.

"Disclosure of this information was manifestly in the public interest.

"Mr Green denies any wrongdoing and stands by his actions."

'No prior knowledge'

Conservative sources said a police investigation into a high-ranking politician would have to have been cleared at "the very top" and have described the actions as "Stalinesque".

But a Downing Street spokesman said: "This is a matter for the police. The prime minister had no prior knowledge of the arrest of Mr Green and was only informed after the event."

Mr Green, the MP for Ashford in Kent, who has been the Conservatives' immigration spokesman since December 2005, was arrested shortly before 1400 GMT at his constituency home.

In a statement, the Metropolitan Police said: "The man has been arrested on suspicion of conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office and aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office."

It added search warrants had been carried out at a home in Kent, a home in west London, business premises in Kent and in central London

"The search at the residential address in west London has concluded, the other searches continue," it added.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk_politics/7753557.stm

Published: 2008/11/27 22:13:15 GMT

© BBC MMVII

[oldsoak]

Section 2 and all that.

You cannot have chaps leaving laptops on trains or leaking info. I find it odd to demand enquiries about some bloke losing a laptop but at the same time think its ok for a chap to leak info to you.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Some Tory arrested and it does not involve hookers, rentboys or dogging thats new.

[Lazy Lob]

Parliamentary life has always had leaks. So if some Jo Moore can leak her crap on 9/11 that's fine but if a member of the opposition gets his hands on it then arrest him? A bit OTT to say the least.

If one went by the letter of the law (whatever that is nowadays) then most of labour would be in jail.

Laptops on trains is something else.

[oldsoak]

Most of labour being in jail ? You trying to chat me up ? :lol:

I'm sorry, but information leaks, be that accidental or deliberate have to be dealt with. If you want to get around that, then there has to be a proper Freedom of Information act. You cannot have the idea that some disclosures are ok and some arent because that leaves that discretion in the hands of the individual. you could argue public interest on leaking details on Britains Nuke deterrant if you so wished - the lefties have.

[Lazy Lob]

Most of labour being in jail ? You trying to chat me up ? :lol:

;-)



I'm sorry, but information leaks, be that accidental or deliberate have to be dealt with. If you want to get around that, then there has to be a proper Freedom of Information act. You cannot have the idea that some disclosures are ok and some arent because that leaves that discretion in the hands of the individual. you could argue public interest on leaking details on Britains Nuke deterrant if you so wished - the lefties have.

So why arrest some and not others? Leaking that an illegal immigrant is a Commons cleaner is not on par with a nuclear secret. Green is an MP and thus supposed to be "honourable". Is a leak ok if it demonstrates duplicity or (heavens forbid) corruption in government?

I don't know the answer. But it just seems that common sense has left the building and it has been replaced by something rather sinister.

[timetraveller]

The way you look at it ,, The LP has taken a constant PR bashing ...

Anyhow , who has the most to gain from all the Info leaked ,afterall it wouldn't benifit the Tories so such an extent because who would vote them back in ? Countryside folks that want to back to the old ways of hunting , the Leak comes from within the Civil Service [ if you wanna call em that ] makin the current PM look like a complete whalloper , there is a hidden agenda by those that have taking a disliking to the current PM and his bunch ..
There has always been a saying there is a Goverment within a Goverment and that is exactly the case ,,


A Tory MP is the scape goat in this pathetic fiasco of a charade .

[CMNot]

unelected prime minister, opposition member arrested. Not zimbabwe.
321321321
:|

[Calanen]

Parliamentary life has always had leaks. So if some Jo Moore can leak her crap on 9/11 that's fine but if a member of the opposition gets his hands on it then arrest him? A bit OTT to say the least.

If one went by the letter of the law (whatever that is nowadays) then most of labour would be in jail.

Laptops on trains is something else.

Yeah what about Cash for Peerages in the Labor Party. Dont think anyone ever got charged over that.

[Lazy Lob]

No they weren't. Lord Cashpoint is still grinning as well as his master.

I find this Green business sickening and a bleedin' disgrace. Of the police most pundits I’ve watched say that they must have had senior political backing or as Portillo said “they’re even bigger bloody fools than we thought”.

Across the political spectrum all agree that this must have had some government backing. 10 officers were sent to arrest him. Walter Wolfgang, Sally Murrer, the Iceland affair. What the f**k is going on?

Civil servants have always leaked information even to Herr Braun when he was in opposition.

Even though I no fan of Cameron I can’t wait for these tossers to be pushed out. I’m glab old Bojo pushed Ian Blair out and I hope a process of de-politicising the police starts asap.

[Calanen]

Across the political spectrum all agree that this must have had some government backing. 10 officers were sent to arrest him. Walter Wolfgang, Sally Murrer, the Iceland affair. What the f**k is going on?


I can guarantee that the Prime Minister and Attorney-General both were briefed and knew prior to and during the operation.

[Lazy Lob]

Bojo and Cameron knew of the arrest before it happened and questioned its validity. Yet Herr Braun denies all knowledge. Yeah right, excuse me while I go and suck an egg.

And there was Douglas Alexander saying last night that he hadn't even heard the news so could not comment.

[oldsoak]

;-)




So why arrest some and not others? Leaking that an illegal immigrant is a Commons cleaner is not on par with a nuclear secret. Green is an MP and thus supposed to be "honourable". Is a leak ok if it demonstrates duplicity or (heavens forbid) corruption in government?

I don't know the answer. But it just seems that common sense has left the building and it has been replaced by something rather sinister.

I absolutely agree that there should be one law and it applies to all. As ref the illegal - while I agree the point of difference in scale, you cannot have someone taking it upon themselves to decide how important information is and if it can be leaked or not. While the idea of people of concience is nice and cuddly, lets not forget the same was said of the Cambridge spy ring. A left wing concience is not a right wing one.
What is required is proper freedom of information that would negate the disregard of trust placed on civil serpents in order to obtain what the public shopuld rightly know. There should be all party consensus on what that should be. What I personally dont like is that immigration is a nettle the Labour party refuse to grab and indeed seem to try and cover up for fear of either offence or incompetence. As to GB not knowing - why should he ? If the PM has to be informed if an MP is about to get lifted, what does that imply ? That he can stop it if the blokes a mate ?

[Calanen]

As to GB not knowing - why should he ? If the PM has to be informed if an MP is about to get lifted, what does that imply ? That he can stop it if the blokes a mate ?


He would have known.

[Lazy Lob]

I absolutely agree that there should be one law and it applies to all. ...........

x2


As to GB not knowing - why should he ? If the PM has to be informed if an MP is about to get lifted, what does that imply ? That he can stop it if the blokes a mate ?

On the other hand why shouldn't he? This is very rare, maybe unprecedented. There maybe severe consequences. FFS an MP arrested for being on the receiving end of leaked information. The Dear Leader has also been on the receiving end may a time, in all probability leaked stuff himself. He's not in jail. What are the police doing arresting our MP's for doing what they have always done? Has our Dear Leader all of a sudden changed the rules? This is all part of Westminster life, all except the arrest.

[Calanen]

x2



On the other hand why shouldn't he? This is very rare, maybe unprecedented. There maybe severe consequences. FFS an MP arrested for being on the receiving end of leaked information. The Dear Leader has also been on the receiving end may a time, in all probability leaked stuff himself. He's not in jail. What are the police doing arresting our MP's for doing what they have always done? Has our Dear Leader all of a sudden changed the rules? This is all part of Westminster life, all except the arrest.

It's just not possible it would have gone down without the PM being briefed in advance. If, by some fluke, the guy was just arrested on the street for taking a swing at a copper or something then the head of the PMs staff just would have brought him a briefing note after the fact. But given they went to his house, the PM would have been told in advance. The AG would have also called the PM and told him what they were going to do.

It is likely also after a particularly irritating leak the PM and/or the AG ordered the cops to find whoever was doing it and report back to them.

And anything to the contrary, is just bollocks.

[Lazy Lob]

But that's what we are being fed all the time: bollox.

[Calanen]

But that's what we are being fed all the time: bollox.

Yes. But that's what people want mostly.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

This is a politically motivated arrest. It's a 'parting shot' at the Tories from the outgoing Met Police Commissioner who is smarting from being ousted from his cushy job by the Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson.

[oldsoak]

x2



On the other hand why shouldn't he? This is very rare, maybe unprecedented. There maybe severe consequences. FFS an MP arrested for being on the receiving end of leaked information. The Dear Leader has also been on the receiving end may a time, in all probability leaked stuff himself. He's not in jail. What are the police doing arresting our MP's for doing what they have always done? Has our Dear Leader all of a sudden changed the rules? This is all part of Westminster life, all except the arrest.

Firstly, I think that MP's should be allowed access to Department info without having to bum up to some chum - but only as part of my FoIA idea. There has to be accountability and scrutiny of Depertmental facts and figures. National security should only be available to selected MP's from all sides who have been cleared and not joe public
- it might simply be a knee jerk reaction to laptop loosers. A leak is a leak, be it a breifcase of papers, a lost laptop or something whispered to someone in Hyde park. Its the unathorised passing of info be it deliberate or accidental. I've spent the last two weeks dealing with the local government code of connection that looks like it came out of GCHQ. We've never had it before EVER. Why now ? - because of the whats happened over the last while with clowns loosing data. They have told us so. Accountability and security are the new buzzwords !

[Lazy Lob]

This is a politically motivated arrest. It's a 'parting shot' at the Tories from the outgoing Met Police Commissioner who is smarting from being ousted from his cushy job by the Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson.

Very likely. Hadn't thought that one through!



Firstly, I think that MP's should be allowed access to Department info without having to bum up to some chum - but only as part of my FoIA idea. There has to be accountability and scrutiny of Depertmental facts and figures. National security should only be available to selected MP's from all sides who have been cleared and not joe public
- it might simply be a knee jerk reaction to laptop loosers. A leak is a leak, be it a breifcase of papers, a lost laptop or something whispered to someone in Hyde park. Its the unathorised passing of info be it deliberate or accidental. I've spent the last two weeks dealing with the local government code of connection that looks like it came out of GCHQ. We've never had it before EVER. Why now ? - because of the whats happened over the last while with clowns loosing data. They have told us so. Accountability and security are the new buzzwords !

I quite agree. But don't forget Green didn't leak the info.

[oldsoak]

Green may well not have passed the info on, but that fact had to be established. It cannot be assumed by the police. It would eventually come to light as a fact to be used in debate . As to it being a pop at the Tories - I'm not sure. Labour wont be in power for ever and the cops will soon have deal with the Tories - and they are not short on memory. In any case, I 'd expect the police to do rather better in dealing with mps ! You can barely close the door for the skeletons in the HoP.

[RAFREGT.]

they are all a bunch of ****s. its just that some are bigger ****s than the others.

[CMNot]

outgoing Met Police Commissioner

Last I heard he was going sparky hunting in Brazil...

Jokes aside this Gov't is slowly starting to actually scare me, as opposed to merely alarm. You can stick this with the abortion of Law and liberal democracy that is New Liebours "anti-terror" legislation.

On a side note, ask your bookies for the odds on a spring election p-)

[Lazy Lob]

The police need to be put in their place.


Cross-party fury over MP's arrest

The Lib Dems have called shadow immigration minister Damian Green's arrest a "mayday warning" for democracy amid cross-party anger over the move.

Mr Green was arrested, held for nine hours and had his two homes and offices searched by police investigating alleged leaks from the Home Office.

Tory leader David Cameron called the police operation "alarming" and said the government had questions to answer.

But the Home Office said ministers were not informed until after the arrest.

'Democracy in danger'

Mr Cameron, London mayor Boris Johnson and Commons Speaker Michael Martin were all informed about the raids.

But Downing Street insisted ministers had not been given advance warning and Prime Minister Gordon Brown said it was purely a police matter.

"I had no prior knowledge, the home secretary had no prior knowledge, I know of no other minister who had any prior knowledge," he told Sky News, adding: "I knew about it only after it had happened."

But the former Conservative Home Secretary and Tory leader, Michael Howard, said he would be "astonished" if he had not been told about the police investigation when in office.

"I would have expected to be told. This was an investigation we know initiated by the Home Office. Are we to believe that nobody in the Home Office was told?"

He added: "If nobody knew it tells you something about the way government is working at the present time, and about the relations between ministers and senior civil servants."

Mr Green was not charged with any offence but was released on bail until February, when he could face further questioning.

The Ashford MP, the Tories' immigration spokesman since 2005, has denied any wrongdoing and said "opposition politicians have a duty to hold the government to account".

Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg told the BBC that he was "really shocked" by Mr Green's arrest.

"This is something you might expect from a tin-pot dictatorship, not in a modern democracy," he said.

Given the culture of "extraordinary secrecy" in Whitehall, it was getting harder to hold the government to account and opposition MPs had a constitutional duty to keep "ministers on their toes", he added.

He called on Gordon Brown to "rule out any further use of anti-terrorism powers in cases that have nothing to do with terrorism," although the Metropolitan Police stressed the arrest was made under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and not anti-terror legislation.

The Met said some counter-terrorism officers were involved because they were the most "appropriate" to carry out such an operation.

But David Cameron attacked the "heavy-handed" way in which it took nine officers to make the arrest and search the premises.

"If they wanted to talk to Damian Green why not pick up the telephone and ask to talk to him," he said. "I think this is extraordinary that it was so heavy-handed and done in this way," said Mr Cameron.

"They have got questions to answer, frankly, I think government ministers have got questions to answer as well. If they didn't know, why weren't they told?

"What do they think about in Britain today, counter-terrorism police are spending their time searching an MP's office, arresting him, holding him for nine hours, all on a day when British citizens are being killed on the other side of the world and all because, as far as I can see, he made public some information that was in the public interest that the government found uncomfortable.

"Well, let's hope that our democracy hasn't come to that."

Shadow Home Secretary Dominic Grieve released a list of more than 50 questions he said the government had to answer about the arrest, including when ministers and officials were told about it.

"The government's limp and confused response begs more questions than it answers. Ministers have some very important questions to answer."

Leaks

Sir David Normington, the top civil servant at the Home Office, said he had taken the decision to ask for police help in identifying the source of a series of "leaks of sensitive information over an extended period," because the leaks had "risked undermining the effective operation of my department".

"The police investigation led to a junior member of the Home Office being arrested on 19 November and subsequently suspended from duty," said Sir David in a statement.

"Yesterday (Thursday), I was informed by the Metropolitan Police at about 1.45pm that a search was about to be conducted of the home and offices of a member of the Opposition front bench. I was subsequently told that an arrest had been made.

"Ministers were not involved in the decision to seek police assistance or in the subsequent investigation and were only told of the arrest after it had occurred."

The leaks thought to be at the centre of the investigation include:

The November 2007 revelation that the home secretary knew the Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers, but decided not to publicise it.
The February 2008 news that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons.
A whips' list of potential Labour rebels in the vote on plans to increase the pre-charge terror detention limit to 42 days.
A letter from the home secretary warning that a recession could lead to a rise in crime.
The Metropolitan Police confirmed Mr Green was arrested by members of its counter-terrorism command, thought to be Special Branch officers, at his home in Kent and searches were conducted at his homes in London and Kent and at two offices in Kent and London.

It said the investigation was not terrorism related but did fall within the counter-terror unit's remit and that it was made without the knowledge or approval of ministers.

'Fair game'

There was also concern about the arrest on the Labour benches.

Former minister Denis MacShane said that the Speaker should make clear that MPs were entitled to hold sensitive material in the same way as lawyers and doctors.

"To send a squad of counter terrorist officers to arrest an MP shows the growing police contempt for Parliament and democratic politics," he said.

"The police now believe that MPs are so reduced in public status that they are fair game for over-excited officers to order dawn raids, arrests and searches of confidential files held by MPs or those who work for them.

"I am not sure this is good for British democracy."

Police say Mr Green was held on suspicion of "conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office" and "aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office" - an obscure and little-used offence under common law.

One legal expert said it was doubtful whether any case would be brought against Mr Green.

"In a western democracy, I think it would be very surprising if an elected member of Parliament was put on trial for an offence which arises from him putting in the public domain material that he thinks should be there in the public interest," said Robert Brown, a partner at the law firm Corker Binning.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk_politics/7753763.stm

Published: 2008/11/28 23:30:46 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

[The Beard]

Even though I no fan of Cameron I can’t wait for these tossers to be pushed out. I’m glab old Bojo pushed Ian Blair out and I hope a process of de-politicising the police starts asap.
The Police politicised? Outrageous. A certain Police force (which shall remain nameless) realized that the number of thefts committed in its area were well below target, whereas the number of burglaries were over target. Solution? If your garden shed is broken into and your lawnmower stolen, that should be a burglary. Instead it's reported as a theft; problem solved. Tariq Ghaffur, an Assistant Commissioner in the Metropolitan Police has been allowed to retire early with full pension. Oh, and a £300,000 pay off. Why? Because he's a member of an ethnic minority who considered he
was discriminated against. He couldn't get much higher in the force, and yet he still moaned and bitched. I think I should sue for being discriminated against for having facial hair. It's quite obvious. There has only been one bearded Chief Constable in our force in more than a hundred years.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

This is a politically motivated arrest. It's a 'parting shot' at the Tories from the outgoing Met Police Commissioner who is smarting from being ousted from his cushy job by the Conservative Mayor of London Boris Johnson.Your spot on the Met do not like being f%cked over by politicos of any creed and how on earth can a local politician oust the head of the Met who are responsible for counter terror operations in the UK.

[Lazy Lob]

Your spot on the Met do not like being f%cked over by politicos of any creed and how on earth can a local politician oust the head of the Met who are responsible for counter terror operations in the UK.

No one likes being interfered with especially by the bunch of c**ts in power. But Ian Blair loved his politics so he should've expected to have got burnt by politics. That does not give the police the right to interfere in the democratic life of parliament, under any circumstances. What the police have done is very grave indeed. Nothing can excuse it.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

No one likes being interfered with especially by the bunch of c**ts in power. But Ian Blair loved his politics. That does not give the police the right to interfere in the democratic life of parliament, under any circumstances. What the police have done is very grave indeed. Nothing can excuse it.

Ian Blair lived by the political sword and died by it.

I used to have respect for the Police force here in the UK but after 11 years of increasing politicization and the infiltration of the left wing into the force through graduate entry schemes etc I see them simply as being the enforcers of political correctness and government revenue generators. Social workers in body armour.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Your spot on the Met do not like being f%cked over by politicos of any creed and how on earth can a local politician oust the head of the Met who are responsible for counter terror operations in the UK.

Well Blair was not competent in that aspect of policing or any other as far as I can see. If he had been effective it would not have been an issue.

[Lazy Lob]

Ian Blair lived by the political sword and died by it.

I used to have respect for the Police force here in the UK but after 11 years of increasing politicization and the infiltration of the left wing into the force through graduate entry schemes etc I see them simply as being the enforcers of political correctness and government revenue generators. Social workers in body armour.

I quite agree.


Last I heard he was going sparky hunting in Brazil...

I shouldn't laugh...................

[CMNot]

The scary thing is how is this un-holy mess going to be resolved? We don't even have a Left-Right dichotomy anymore; just a big "blurgh" in the middle. Labour just has this weird policy of turning "big Government" into some all-pervasive, all-intrustive canceresque growth. The Lib Dems got us all killed in WW1. And the Tories...can you spell policies?

I liked it more when I knew the battleground and new the choices. Asymmetric politics, "blurgh".

I wouldn't blame graduate entry as ****ing the rozzers to be honest. Qualifications don't change the fact that they always appear quickest when uninvited p-)


Ian Blair lived by the political sword and died by it.

And it was oh so such an enjoyable death. I'd like to make a joke about Blair/Brown, but I'll probably be arrested and held for 5,000 years under 'anti-terror' legislation for the 'greater good'.

A family member works for Allen & Overy and is thoroughly enjoying the mess Labour have got us in. Guess it never rains for the Lawyers.

[walford]

Cross-party fury over MP's arrest (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7753763.stm)
The Lib Dems have called shadow immigration minister Damian Green's arrest a "mayday warning" for democracy amid cross-party anger over the move.

Mr Green was arrested, held for nine hours and had his two homes and offices searched by police investigating alleged leaks from the Home Office.

Tory leader David Cameron called the police operation "alarming" and said the government had questions to answer.

But the Home Office said ministers were not informed until after the arrest.

Mr Cameron, London Mayor Boris Johnson and Commons Speaker Michael Martin were all informed about the raids.

But Downing Street insisted ministers had not been given advance warning and Prime Minister Gordon Brown said it was purely a police matter...

... Sir David Normington, the top civil servant at the Home Office, said he had taken the decision to ask for police help in identifying the source of a series of "leaks of sensitive information over an extended period," because the leaks had "risked undermining the effective operation of my department".

"The police investigation led to a junior member of the Home Office being arrested on 19 November and subsequently suspended from duty," said Sir David in a statement.

"Yesterday (Thursday), I was informed by the Metropolitan Police at about 1.45pm that a search was about to be conducted of the home and offices of a member of the Opposition front bench. I was subsequently told that an arrest had been made.

"Ministers were not involved in the decision to seek police assistance or in the subsequent investigation and were only told of the arrest after it had occurred."

The leaks thought to be at the centre of the investigation include:
The November 2007 revelation that the home secretary knew the Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers, but decided not to publicise it.
The February 2008 news that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons.
A whips' list of potential Labour rebels in the vote on plans to increase the pre-charge terror detention limit to 42 days.
A letter from the home secretary warning that a recession could lead to a rise in crime.
The Metropolitan Police confirmed Mr Green was arrested by members of its counter-terrorism command, thought to be Special Branch officers, at his home in Kent and searches were conducted at his homes in London and Kent and at two offices in Kent and London.

It said the investigation was not terrorism related but did fall within the counter-terror unit's remit and that it was made without the knowledge or approval of ministers...It would seem that intimidation tactics were employed against Damian Green for exposing weaknesses in the UK's immigration policies. Am I missing something?

[CMNot]

There's a thread discussing it here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=146887) mate.

[walford]

I looked. Oh, well. If mods could delete this thread it would be appreciated.

[walford]

...The leaks thought to be at the centre of the investigation include:
The November 2007 revelation that the home secretary knew the Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers, but decided not to publicise it.
The February 2008 news that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons.
A whips' list of potential Labour rebels in the vote on plans to increase the pre-charge terror detention limit to 42 days.
A letter from the home secretary warning that a recession could lead to a rise in crime.The Metropolitan Police confirmed Mr Green was arrested by members of its counter-terrorism command, thought to be Special Branch officers, at his home in Kent and searches were conducted at his homes in London and Kent and at two offices in Kent and London.

It said the investigation was not terrorism related but did fall within the counter-terror unit's remit and that it was made without the knowledge or approval of ministers...It would seem that intimidation tactics were employed against Damian Green for exposing weaknesses in the UK's immigration policies. Am I missing something?

[Lazy Lob]

It would seem that intimidation tactics were employed against Damian Green for exposing weaknesses in the UK's immigration policies. Am I missing something?

Nothing at all. Brown and his black shirts have all of a sudden switched back to old labour policies but knowing what a screw up they’ve made of their tenure. They now want to stifle dissent. Labour believe their way is the only way and will stamp on any one saying otherwise. This is quite shocking and the shyte storm may have only started.


Hang on, some one’s knocking on my door……………………………..

[gazell]

Also interestingly, 16 days between ID of him and arrest, hm. Nobody knew a thing, of course...rofl

[Lazy Lob]

Jacqui Smith was a flippin joke when questioned by Andrew Marr. Porkies.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9927/schulziknownothingam3.jpg

[gazell]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7756047.stm

[Lazy Lob]

You're quite correct, there is also talk of bugging devices in MPs offices.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

You're quite correct, there is also talk of bugging devices in MPs offices.Nothing new here then MI5 have been bugging MP's phones since the 60's when the thought Wilson was a communist and Profumo was banging Glavnoye Razvedyvatelnoye Upravleniye informants.

[Lazy Lob]

Keeler and Ivanov, I know. But that was then. Now we have a lying git who's messed up the country and with Jack-boot-Jaqui is very likely trying to suppress all opposition.


December 1, 2008

An historic attack on liberty and democracy

The Damian Green affair has damaged both the police and government. It threatens 700 years of parliamentary tradition

William Rees-Mogg

The arrest of Damian Green last Thursday, his subsequent detention and interrogation, together with the police search of his home and his office in the Palace of Westminster, constitute the most serious breach of the privilege of Parliament in modern times. At least eight senior figures in the British Establishment were involved; they either initiated the action, agreed to it, conducted it, or allowed it to continue. Not one of them seems to have understood how serious a “high crime or misdemeanour” they were conspiring to commit.

The police may have thought that they were legitimately investigating a crime; in fact, they were committing one, a much more serious crime than the one they imagined they were investigating. Contempt of the House of Commons can only be defined by the House of Commons itself, but there is little doubt that this was it. All the evidence of history is that Parliament has to protect itself against outside pressure of all kinds, and particularly against coercion by the executive power.

In 1523, Sir Thomas More, as Speaker, had to resist the pressure of Henry VIII's Minister, Cardinal Wolsey; in 1642, Speaker Lenthall frustrated Charles I's attempt to arrest the five Members. The House of Commons needs the protection of privilege to do its job. The liberty of Members is the liberty of the people.

In the present case, had the police waited for 24 hours, they would have learnt of the acquittal of a journalist on the very charge they were investigating. Sally Murrer and her police source, Detective Sergeant Mark Kearney, were both acquitted under article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects the right of every citizen to receive and impart information without interference by public authority.

It is not clear what legal advice was taken by the police before they decided to arrest Damian Green. Plainly it was inadequate. The leader of the House, Harriet Harman, has said that they did not consult the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General; they certainly did not consult her.

Who played the role of Cardinal Wolsey, and had the arrogance to invade the rights of Parliament? If Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, is to be believed - and her testimony is not entirely convincing - two senior civil servants ordered the police investigation - the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Gus O'Donnell, and the Permanent Secretary at the Home Office, Sir David Normington. These civil servants have many questions to answer. What legal advice did they take? When did they consult their own ministers, which would be the Prime Minister in the case of Sir Gus O'Donnell? What steps did they take to supervise so sensitive a police inquiry?

Did they know the police were going to arrest a Member of Parliament? Did they consider whether that might be a contempt of the House of Commons? Did they consider whether a search of Mr Green's office in Parliament would be another contempt? I doubt whether, as Jacqui Smith suggests, these civil servants acted entirely on their own; I think it more likely that they had already discussed the alleged leaks with the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary before they asked the police to intervene.

The higher responsibility belongs to the Prime Minister and Home Secretary. We do not yet know exactly when Gordon Brown or Jacqui Smith knew that the actual arrest had taken place. It seems that Boris Johnson, as Mayor of London, was told before the event; he made a very proper protest. The Speaker and the Leader of the opposition were also informed before the arrest happened. It is quite hard to believe the two ministers were not told at the same time.

What was Gordon Brown supposed to say if he had not been informed but David Cameron or Speaker Martin decided to telephone him and ask him to call off this illegal event? Could Sir Gus O'Donnell have waited to tell Gordon Brown until after the event, when so many other people knew before the event? The story being told does not really hang together.

In any case, Gordon Brown and Jacqui Smith admit that they knew what had happened shortly after the arrest itself. At that time the contempt of Parliament was being continued and extended. Searches were being made, files and laptops were being removed. This essential contempt of Parliament could still have been mitigated by a telephone call from the Prime Minister or the Home Secretary.

The Speaker, Michael Martin, and the Serjeant at Arms, Jill Pay, failed to prevent the police invasion of the Palace of Westminster and may even have approved it. This breaks 700 years of parliamentary tradition. Both of them had the authority to keep the police out of Mr Green's office.

There were two senior policemen who must share part of the blame; it is no excuse that they were obeying orders. The junior of the two, Bob Quick, is an expert on terrorism. He will have to answer for the detailed handling of the operation. The senior was Sir Paul Stephenson, who was widely expected to succeed Sir Ian Blair as Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police; that would not now be appropriate or even tolerable.

The damage is strewn all around. Democracy is damaged; the House of Commons is damaged; British liberty is under attack. The police are damaged. The actual operation was a spectacular public disaster; many people now think we are living in a police state. The Government has been damaged. They must now realise how angry the public are. The Labour party has been weakened; this has been a horrifying mixture of ignorance, incompetence and shame.

Of course, Jacqui Smith should resign like other Labour home secretaries. She has been responsible for a major political disaster. I do not expect that Gordon Brown will resign, unless it proves that he did indeed have prior knowledge. Yet he bears the ultimate responsibility. The House of Commons remains the centre of our democracy. The freedom of Britain cannot survive if the centre does not hold.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/william_rees_mogg/article5263357.ece

[marktigger]

Given that Nu-Labour used leak after leak to undermine the Major government I'm not surprised they are using all the powers available to try and stop the same thing look at the Murrer case as well.
Its now time we got rid of this arrogant shower and held some elections. Hopefully with better turne out so the next government accuratley represents the wishes of all the people not the voters of some Key Marrginals.

[oldsoak]

I'm at bit of a loss here. Whats so special about an MP that his or her arrest has to jump through hoops not necessary for us common mongs ? Is the idea that a certain section of society is immune from the legalities that bind the rest of us necessary for "Democracy" ?

Have a read chaps - just incae you think New Labour have invented this.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7DB143FF936A35750C0A96F948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3

[Billy No Mates]

Section 2 and all that.

You cannot have chaps leaving laptops on trains or leaking info. I find it odd to demand enquiries about some bloke losing a laptop but at the same time think its ok for a chap to leak info to you.

Leaving a lap top on a train is a dangerous threat to national security,we would not not know of such lapses or the one causing the current furore if it was not for leaks,Parliament could not work if the grey functionarys of the civil service did not sureptisously highlight the fvckups of their superiors,there's the paradox .
Its deeply worrying that anti-terror legislation has been mis-used in this way and the sort of raid on Parliament not seen since Charles the 1st sauntered into the house has taken place under a government that when in opposition thrived on leaks to rightly highlight the misdeeds of the Torys .

[marktigger]

Old soak look at the police targets in the case mentioned it was the civil servant who leaked the document. The 2 cases currently are about people who have used leaked materiel in the course of their Jobs a Member of the opposition and a journalist both of whom's job is to hold the government to account.
Unfortunatley in the UK the Offical secrets act is also missued it is well known that much destroyed under the OSS isn't secret at all just embarassing to Government ministers and senior civil servants.
Now the Labour party were not averse to using leaked materiel to embarass the Conservitive's. But the actions of the current govt would send out a message to both MP's and civil servants that the rules have changed. It also says to constituents that what you tell or send your MP in confidence may end up being read by the Police and other Govt agencies.

[CMNot]

It also says to constituents that what you tell or send your MP in confidence may end up being read by the Police and other Govt agencies.

Extremely important point.

These ****s, need to go. But God we need someone prepared to really piss the country off to repeal some of the damage.

[oldsoak]

Leaving a lap top on a train is a dangerous threat to national security,we would not not know of such lapses or the one causing the current furore if it was not for leaks,Parliament could not work if the grey functionarys of the civil service did not sureptisously highlight the fvckups of their superiors,there's the paradox .
Its deeply worrying that anti-terror legislation has been mis-used in this way and the sort of raid on Parliament not seen since Charles the 1st sauntered into the house has taken place under a government that when in opposition thrived on leaks to rightly highlight the misdeeds of the Torys .

- This is why we need a proper FoIA. We cannot have civil servants being either groomed by journos or mp's or taking upon themselves to pass on information based on what their concience or some arbitrary personal moral mark is. If its ok to talk to an MP, its ok to talk to the press. Do we really want a civil service that supplies information on demand to the highest bidder ? Where do we draw the line on what you can or cant divulge ? What even makes jo public think that his/her information is safe with an MP ? Do we really think we're talking to priests in a confessional or someone who will use that information to an advantage ?

[The Beard]

Surely there is a difference between information left on a train, given or sold that could harm individuals or the security of the nation, such as names and details of servicemen or secrets such as Chobham armour or military assets in Iraq and something that concerns domestic matters such as immigration. Policing, social services, immigration, transport, employment and the National Health Service are all matters that affect us on a more or less daily basis. If the government is concealing things from the "Country" like the above then they should be revealed and if it's being leaked by an MP then surely that's part of their job.

[oldsoak]

Yes - but where do you draw the line ?
While some information is blatantly a serious security issue, is revealing something like reactor problems on subs affecting the health of seamen an issue - if it might reveal the operational readiness of trident subs ?

[marktigger]

Yes - but where do you draw the line ?
While some information is blatantly a serious security issue, is revealing something like reactor problems on subs affecting the health of seamen an issue - if it might reveal the operational readiness of trident subs ?

So then how does HM oposition hold the govt to account if they have no access to information that could and would probably be swept under the carpet?

[oldsoak]

So then how does HM oposition hold the govt to account if they have no access to information that could and would probably be swept under the carpet?

Exactly - hence the need for a proper FoIA and proper guidelines for MP's that all parties sign up to. The problem is what parties consider acceptable in opposition is not what they consider acceptable in power. Also, is an MP beyond question ? what if information about lax security at the HoP were leaked to Sinn Fein - after all, they're elected ?
I admit I'm unimpressed with the arrest considering the likes of Captain Hook went untouched for years.

[The Beard]

Yes - but where do you draw the line ?
While some information is blatantly a serious security issue, is revealing something like reactor problems on subs affecting the health of seamen an issue - if it might reveal the operational readiness of trident subs ?
Is this not where our decision making comes in? How many soldiers in Northern Ireland had to make the decision "Do I fire on the man shooting at me when he is hiding behind children?" How often has the decision to call in air support in Iraq or Afghanistan been coloured by the presence of non-combatants? Is there not a similar, though less fatal decision to be made here? When the government of the day makes a decision involving a matter that concerns the man on the street in day to day matters such as health, housing, transport, pensions and immigration and that decision involves lying or concealing the truth, then surely an MP, if gaining information to that effect has a duty to reveal it. If it concerns National Security or something else equally important then the MP should report it to the leader of his party who can help make the right decision, which may or may not result in political points being scored.

[Calanen]

Exactly - hence the need for a proper FoIA and proper guidelines for MP's that all parties sign up to.

Will never happen, and can never happen. Crown always has Public Interest Immunity, and national security immunity. And no one gets to check those. Unless you had like a panel review what was in those things when claimed, (which is not a bad idea) it gets abused. Frequently - to cover up all manner of fubars. Anything embarassing for the government is deemed not in the 'public interest' or has an impact on national security - and so is withheld.

[oldsoak]

Will never happen, and can never happen. Crown always has Public Interest Immunity, and national security immunity. And no one gets to check those. Unless you had like a panel review what was in those things when claimed, (which is not a bad idea) it gets abused. Frequently - to cover up all manner of fubars. Anything embarassing for the government is deemed not in the 'public interest' or has an impact on national security - and so is withheld.

I think we have to look at how the USA handles it - and take the good bits from that. The current method is daft. It puts civil servants under unecessary pressure and makes them objects of mistrust.

[Calanen]

I think we have to look at how the USA handles it - and take the good bits from that. The current method is daft. It puts civil servants under unecessary pressure and makes them objects of mistrust.

The US is slightly better, but not by much. They have been embarassed into releasing some things that were first leaked on the web. When you read certain of those documents, there was plenty embarassing in them, not much in the way that is truly national security based. I dont want to give examples or links, lest less friendly elements are reading this.

National security and public interest immunity is overplayed to protect the government and cover up its failures from the public. That is what needs to be addressed, and I think you could only do that by getting a panel of security cleared independant civilians to review claims for PII and NS Privilege.

But that will never happen - because it removes their get out of jail free card for every fubar....

[Lazy Lob]

But this would mean constant PII certificates being signed by judges. Surely to get a PII you must first go to court. So in theory there was no PII in place for the information being handled by Green.

I agree with oldsoak. We need proper FoI rules. Just look what happened when the "honourable members" were unwilling to release their expenses.

Labour and their police force are abusing the whole system and are in effect threatening the democratic process. New rules are needed for new times and especially for a coercive government.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Do any of you older UK guys remember a TV series from the late '70s' called '1990'

IIRC it starred Edward Woodward. Whoever wrote it did so with great prescience about the current state of play in the UK.

[Lazy Lob]

Give labour a couple of more years and we'll be there.

[CMNot]

Thankfully, I don't think they have two more years.

Spring election, £5, any takers p-)

[oldsoak]

Yes - but considering the legislation that was brought after Sarah Tisdal and the leaks about cruise, do you really think the Tories will roll back Labours law ? A fiver says they wont when they get in. The rules change everytime - but will those who kick off now do the same then ?

[CMNot]

I doubt it.

Living history shows we'll just get a different bunch of lying bastards. I can at least however hope they'll repeal some of the stealth and indirect taxes, throttle back the HSE and generally get Gov't tentacles further away from my life.

Laugh now...

[Lazy Lob]

Speaker's position untenable after police contradict Damian Green arrest details
The position of Michael Martin as Speaker of the House of Commons looked increasingly untenable after the Metropolitan Police contradicted his official account of the raid on Damian Green's Parliamentary office.


By Robert Winnett, Deputy Political Editor
Last Updated: 9:12AM GMT 05 Dec 2008
Michael Martin - Speakers position untenable after police contradict Damian Green arrest details
Michael Martin admitted that the police search had been approved by Jill Pay (right) Photo: *******

The police's intervention came after senior Government ministers declined to back Mr Martin in the wake of his admission that police had raided the shadow minister's office without a legal warrant.

The raid on Mr Green's office has sparked a constitutional crisis with many MPs claiming that the police action had threatened to undermine Parliamentary privilege.

Earlier this week, Mr Martin was forced to admit that the police search had been approved by Jill Pay, the Serjeant at Arms, and that she had not requested a warrant.

Mr Martin had been made aware of the police request to enter Parliament but failed to intervene.

In a statement to Parliament earlier this week, Mr Martin attacked the police for allegedly failing to set out to Mrs Pay the correct warrant process - as he claimed they should have. He expressed "regret" over the conduct of the police and sought to blame his officials for the debacle.

However, in a letter to the Home Secretary, Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick said that his officers had acted entirely correctly and the process was explained.

Mr Quick's letter, which was released to MPs yesterday, states: "The officers explained the nature of the investigation and the purpose of the search and were satisfied that the Serjeant at Arms understood that police had no power to search in the absence of a warrant and therefore could only do so with her written consent or that of the Speaker." The written consent was later provided.

Mr Quick also revealed that his officers have kept detailed notes of their discussions with the Commons authorities - which are likely to be scrutinised by an independent review into the investigation.

The intervention of Mr Quick raises the possibility that Mr Martin and the Serjeant at Arms may have misled MPs in their explanation of last week's raid. MPs will debate the issue on Monday and an independent review of the police's handling of the case is expected to be received next Wednesday.

Dominic Grieve, the shadow Home Secretary, said that the claims of the police and Speaker were "incompatible" and must be explained.

Several Conservative MPs have taken the unusual step of publicly calling for Mr Martin to step down and concern is also growing among Labour MPs.

Margaret Beckett, the Housing Minister and former leader of the House, yesterday refused to give her backing to Mr Martin.

"It is not for the Government to ****ounce on the Speaker, the Speaker is elected by the House," she said in a BBC interview.

Pressed to say whether she thought Mr Martin was doing a good job, Mrs Beckett added: "I thought he handled things with dignity in very, very difficult circumstances."

Harriet Harman, the Leader of the House, has repeatedly declined to openly express confidence in the Speaker or Mrs Pay.

"I am not saying I have full confidence in anything or anybody; I'm just telling you what the procedures are," she told BBC2's Newsnight.

A spokesman for the Prime Minister said that Mr Brown still supported Mr Martin.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/3550064/Speakers-position-untenable-after-police-contradict-Damian-Green-arrest-details.html

[oldsoak]

Heres a question.
conspiracy or ****-up ?

[Lazy Lob]

Heres a question.
conspiracy or ****-up ?

Both..............

[oldsoak]

Naah - you are taking the p*ss - conspiracy implies the ability to conspire. We are talking about this labour government after all.

[Lazy Lob]

I don't quite know the reason for the posts but it I've just got the suspicion this is just the beginninng of a pinko "I'm so right about everything you should all die" import to this Sceptred Isle.


MP's home swept for 'police bugs'


The police have been investigating leaks from the Home Office
The offices, home and car of Conservative MP Damian Green have been swept for bugs by a private security firm called in by his own party.
They feared bugs may have been planted when the premises were raided, saying they were "occupied for quite some time without us personally being present".
Despite intensive searches, nothing was found by the security experts.
The MP was held by police last week on suspicion of conspiring to commit misconduct in public office.
It is understood the MP for Ashford in Kent hired a Berkshire-based security firm to carry out the search.
'Confidentiality'
Sweeps of his constituency home and association offices in Bethersden, Kent, were carried out on Friday, while his London residence and Westminster office, plus his previously impounded car were searched the day before.
Mr Green's agent Gordon Williams said: "Damian is very anxious to maintain the confidentiality of his electors' parliamentary case work.
"Clearly the offices in Bethersden were occupied for quite some time without us personally being present.
"We cannot guarantee the integrity of the office while we're not here, so to avoid the possibility of any listening devices being planted we decided to have the offices in Bethersden swept and also the parliamentary office, car and London and constituency homes."
Alleged leaks
Mr Williams confirmed no bugging devices were found in any of the searches.
Mr Green, the Conservative immigration spokesman, was arrested on 27 November over alleged leaks of sensitive Home Office material.

His controversial detention followed the 19 November arrest and then suspension of a 26-year-old junior official.
Mr Green has always insisted that he had been doing his public duty in holding the Government to account and would continue to do so.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on here. Anyone that thinks the current Tory gang of old Etonians are going to make things a whole lot better for Joe Bloggs are indulging in extreme self deception. At best they will cut the higher rate of tax and repeal the fox hunting ban.

Cmn, the HSE are a shadow of their former incarnation the Factory Inspectorate, Thatcher ravaged the HSE until they were almost ineffective.

[CMNot]

Cmn, the HSE are a shadow of their former incarnation the Factory Inspectorate, Thatcher ravaged the HSE until they were almost ineffective.

They're enjoying a fine renaissance in that case :|

[a_very_ex_STAB]

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on here. Anyone that thinks the current Tory gang of old Etonians are going to make things a whole lot better for Joe Bloggs are indulging in extreme self deception. At best they will cut the higher rate of tax and repeal the fox hunting ban.

Cmn, the HSE are a shadow of their former incarnation the Factory Inspectorate, Thatcher ravaged the HSE until they were almost ineffective.

I agree the Tories and ZaNuLiabour are just parts of the 'Political Class' which will defend its common interests first way ahead of anything that may benefit us proles.

[Billy No Mates]

I agree the Tories and ZaNuLiabour are just parts of the 'Political Class' which will defend its common interests first way ahead of anything that may benefit us proles.

Indeed,its very hard to conceive of a situation where either party will push for anything that will hold them to open to scrutiny or prevent them hiding their fvck ups .

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Indeed,its very hard to conceive of a situation where either party will push for anything that will hold them to open to scrutiny or prevent them hiding their fvck ups .

Not strictly related to thread title but interesting article here from an MEP about the current state of the UK.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/46055,opinion,brown-pawns-the-country-for-electoral-expediency

[CMNot]

Which brings me nicely to what is being referred to as 'Soviet Towns'; where the majority of workers are employed by the state. 1 in 5 of the workforce is now employed in the state sector. Even if I had the capacity to look beyond my 'big Government' loathing, I think I'd still find that pretty nauseating.

That being said, its clearly the best of times to be a state employee.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Which brings me nicely to what is being referred to as 'Soviet Towns'; where the majority of workers are employed by the state. 1 in 5 of the workforce is now employed in the state sector. Even if I had the capacity to look beyond my 'big Government' loathing, I think I'd still find that pretty nauseating.

That being said, its clearly the best of times to be a state employee.The 'Soviet Town' outside of rural areas is mostly the result of de-industrialisation in the late 70's and early 80's and the LA will always be the biggest employer until industry is attracted back into that area.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Which brings me nicely to what is being referred to as 'Soviet Towns'; where the majority of workers are employed by the state. 1 in 5 of the workforce is now employed in the state sector. Even if I had the capacity to look beyond my 'big Government' loathing, I think I'd still find that pretty nauseating.

That being said, its clearly the best of times to be a state employee.

The deal used to be that in the public sector you got relatively not so good wages but a gold plated pension scheme while in the private sector you competed for higher earnings and had to take riskier pensions options.

Now the asylum is being run by the lunatics and you have bloated public sector salaries combined with gold plated pensions - all paid for by the sweated labour of the private sector. Boy do I feel like a mug for going self employed 8 years ago.

NuLiarbour have now made this 'client' state self perpetuating and the Tories do not really dare to challenge it as the combined voting bloc of the sponging benefit parasites and feather bedded tax sucking public sector 'workers' will never vote to cut their cushy lifestyles.

[Lazy Lob]

I just read this and my jaw hit the ground. You can't make this shyte up:



Michael Martin could be offered deal to step down and be replace by his son
Michael Martin, the Speaker of the House of Commons, could step down and be replaced as an MP by his own son under a plan being discussed by senior figures in the Labour Party.


By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent

Last Updated: 7:37AM GMT 08 Dec 2008
Michael Martin could be offered deal to step down and be replace by his son

Michael Martin: friends of the 63-year-old Speaker believe he wants to pass his Glasgow

Some Scottish Labour insiders believe that the Speaker could be willing to signal his intention to step down at the next election in exchange for an assurance that his son, Paul Martin, would be Labour's candidate in his Glasgow seat.

Moves to offer Michael Martin an incentive to step down at the next election are being discussed amid unprecedented public criticism of the Speaker by MPs over his handling of the police search of Damian Green's Commons office.

Removing a sitting Speaker against his will is almost impossible, and Michael Martin has repeatedly signalled he will not be forced out of the job he has held since 2000.

Despite the growing criticism of Michael Martin, few MPs are willing to consider the constitutional turmoil that would be involved in seeking his involuntary removal.

Senior Labour figures are now discussing plans to persuade Michael Martin to step down as Speaker by offering his Glasgow North West seat to his son.

By tradition, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats do not stand against the Speaker at election, but in normal circumstances the Glasgow North West seat would be safe for Labour, even despite recent Scottish National Party advances.

Friends of the 63-year-old Speaker believe he wants to pass on the constituency to his son, who holds the matching seat in the Scottish Parliament.

In exchange for signalling that he would step down at the next election, the Speaker' would get an unspoken agreement that his son would be Labour's candidate in the Westminster seat at the next general election.

One senior Scottish Labour figure sympathetic to the Speaker said he hoped that a graceful exit can be arranged.

He said: "We know he says he won't be pushed out, but we know he wants Paul to get his seat as well. He has to be made to see that that can only happen if he agrees to go gracefully and make an announcement well before the election."

The possibility of his son replacing him as an MP may be part of Michael Martin's refusal to bow to pressure to step down early.

Parliamentary convention dictates that when a speaker steps down, he also leaves the Commons immediately, triggering a by-election.

Michael Martin's promotion of his son's career has been controversial in Scotland, with some Labour members resentful of what they see as nepotism.

Insiders say that controversy would make it much harder for Labour to select Paul Martin as its candidate in a Glasgow North West by-election, which would inevitably be a high-profile contest.

"Putting Paul into the seat might be doable at a general election, but there's no chance at a by-election, and Michael knows that," said one senior Scottish MP. "That's partly why he's so determined to hang on."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3659736/Michael-Martin-could-be-offered-deal-to-step-down-and-be-replace-by-his-son.html

[oldsoak]

@ex_stab

eh ? bloated public sector salaries - not where I am, mate !

[a_very_ex_STAB]

@ex_stab

eh ? bloated public sector salaries - not where I am, mate !

Look at the ever expanding public sector non-jobs pages of the Grauniad for proof.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I just read this and my jaw hit the ground. You can't make this shyte up:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3659736/Michael-Martin-could-be-offered-deal-to-step-down-and-be-replace-by-his-son.html


The fact that the political class are not even bothering to conceal this shameless attempt at nepotism is a good indication of the deep level of their contempt for the public.

[oldsoak]

Look at the ever expanding public sector non-jobs pages of the Grauniad for proof.

Let me say summat here. We were unable to fill a technical post for six months because we couldnt get the blokes we need on the salary we pay. We couldnt raise the pay grade for that post because the post was non management - Oracle dba's with the experience we were after go for 45K + outside London. we were offering 30K.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Let me say summat here. We were unable to fill a technical post for six months because we couldnt get the blokes we need on the salary we pay. We couldnt raise the pay grade for that post because the post was non management - Oracle dba's with the experience we were after go for 45K + outside London. we were offering 30K.

Yeah I understand what you're saying and I was being slightly flippant (very slightly).

What you should have done is advertised in the Grauniad for a 'Five a day multicultural outreach co-ordinator' then retrained them!

[Lazy Lob]

Good debate going on in the Commons right now. Sparks are flying. Martin couldn't give a flying f**k.

[gazell]

This one does not cease to surprise, I wonder what else comes out of the wardrobe, if there can be anything else...

[The Beard]

It just brings to mind how Labour slagged of the Tories (who were by no means perfect) for sleaze and nepotism. As a well known philosopher once said...."Here's the new boss, same as the old boss...." "A parting on the left is now a parting on the right....." (and vice-versa)

[CMNot]

Surely these days, its a middle parting?

p-)

[The Beard]

Surely these days, its a middle parting?

p-)
Well, I think it's a truism that if you go far enough to the left you'll meet yourself coming back from the right. Nazism or Stalinism. Both ideologies were responsible for the deaths of millions of people, both their own and other nationalities. By the way, that's not a good look mate. I think maybe you've taken the exfoliating and male grooming products a bit far.

[CMNot]

I think I'm pimp.

[PUG]

Ladies love it.

[Lazy Lob]

I think I'm pimp.

The way you change avatars you're more like a slapper.

[The Beard]

Ladies love it.
Mmm, I bet you get picked up (sic) by women a lot more than me. Mind you, we've recently inherited a tiny dog from an old lady who's died. What a babe magnet. The only problem is (at my age) they're all about 15!! The prospect of a stay in one of H.M.'s lovely prisons, public repudiation and being beaten up in the street tends to take the gloss off any possible liasions.

[Lazy Lob]

Damian Green arrest: no charges over Home Office leaks

Damian Green, the Tory frontbench MP arrested over the controversial Home Office leaks inquiry, will not face charges, prosecutors have announced.


By Richard Edwards and Tom Whitehead
Last Updated: 12:42PM BST 16 Apr 2009

The Director of Public Prosecutions said that the case against Mr Green and Home Office official Christopher Galley, which caused a major political row and raised questions over heavy-handed policing, has been dropped.

The pair were arrested in November in connection with a series of embarrassing leaks of confidential Government papers. Raids on Mr Green's House of Commons office and home caused outrage in Westminster.

Keir Starmer, the DPP, said that the leaks - including information about the pre-Budget report and illegal immigrants working at the Commons - were not secret or influencing national security. He added that it did not expose anyone to risk of injury or death, much of the information was known to people outside the civil service and "moreover some were matters of legitimate public interest".

Mr Starmer concluded that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute Mr Galley for misconduct in public office, and Mr Green for aiding and abetting him and conspiring to cause misconduct in a public office.

A solicitor for Mr Green said that he was "delighted" and urged police to "to learn lessons" from the affair.

Mr Green had said he found his arrest and nine-hour questioning "astonishing" and had always "emphatically" denied any wrongdoing, insisting he was just doing his job.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, who originally defended the decision to call in the police, insisting she had no prior knowledge that Mr Green was about to be arrested in connection with the inquiry, now faces renewed pressure.

She said that, in the face of sustained leaks, it had been necessary to prevent further sensitive material being made public.

Scotland Yard launched the inquiry last summer after being contacted by the Cabinet Office.

A report by the Home Affairs Committee said that civil servants exaggerated the damage and threat to national security caused by the leaks as they urged police to launch an investigation.

Mandarins were accused of using "hyperbolic" language in a letter to Scotland Yard which claimed "considerable" damage had already occurred because of some of the leaks.

The Metropolitan Police started an inquiry which led to the arrests, led by the former Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick, who quit last week over a security blunder, and sanctioned by Sir Paul Stephenson, when he was Acting Commisioner.

The report was sympathetic to the Met's handling of the affair.

It said Mr Quick acted correctly in searching the MP's Commons office without a warrant - having being given written permission to do so by the Serjeant at Arms. However it criticised a "Keystone Kops" muddle when officers could not locate Mr Green on the day of his arrest and had to ask David Cameron for help in finding him.

The report also leaves Speaker Michael Martin facing criticism for failing to prevent the police search of Mr Green's office and computers.

His officials gave detectives permission when they could have insisted on a warrant.

The police were called in after Sir David Normington, the Home Office permanent secretary, widened an original leak inquiry and gave permission for the Cabinet Office to write to Scotland Yard after an initial leak inquiry.

The letter, to Mr Bob Quick, even informed him that a copy had been sent to Jonathan Evans, the director general of MI5.

But the report, by the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, found there was a "clear mismatch" between the sort of material Sir David suspected had been leaked from his department and the claims in the letter to police over the threat to national security.

Sir David told the committee that he had been investigating at least 20 suspected leaks from the Home Office when he decided to refer the matter to the Cabinet Office, which in turn advised the matter be referred to the police, to which he agreed.

The letter to Mr Quick, from Cabinet Office director of security and intelligence Chris Wright, said: "We are in no doubt that there has been considerable damage to national security already as a result of some of these leaks and we are concerned that the potential for future damage is significant."

But in questioning by the committee, Sir David admitted only one of the 20 leaks related to national security and, the report said, that information was known elsewhere in Government, not just the Home Office.

The report said "frustration" by officials may have led them to give "an exaggerated impression of the damage done" and appeared to question whether the police would still have investigated in other circumstances.

It raises fresh questions over the motive for calling in the police, as critics last night accused officials of doing it to "hide their embarrassment" rather than on national security grounds.

The report concluded: "We are concerned that growing frustration in both the Home Office and Cabinet Office may have led officials to give an exaggerated impression of the damage done by the leaks."

It added: "We think it was unhelpful to give the police the impression the Home Office leaker(s) had already caused considerable damage to national security."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5163574/Damian-Green-arrest-no-charges-over-Home-Office-leaks.html

[CMNot]

Wonder how much this wonderful saga cost eh Lob?

So the blind lead the blind...

[Lazy Lob]

Wonder how much this wonderful saga cost eh Lob?

So the blind lead the blind...

From Jaqui Smifff down, in fact where's me musket?