Privately held uncoded ammunition to be destroyed by 2011

[EZFEED]

The bill that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacturer in a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers. Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded.

Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.) They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more!

See sample:
http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation/Ammo%20Accountability%20-%20Sample%20Legislation.pdf

If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun

This legislation is currently pending in 18 states: Alabama, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington.

To find more about the anti-gun group that is sponsoring this legislation and the specific legislation for each state, go to:

http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm (http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm)

(Copied from another forum. Mods, if this is in the wrong place please move)

[LineDoggie]

Outrageous, but New York will pass it. Our Jackass Governor is a Lackey

[EZFEED]

I expect it up north.......I'm appaled that Arizona, Mississippi, Alabama, and South Carolina are OK with it. :fork:


By the way, doesn't the $1,000 fine AND 1 year imprisonment penalty just make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?rofl

[Piggy]

Well, that´s extremelly good move... for black market!:cantbeli:

[wagon]

Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.) They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more!


So, how are they going to know how much ammo you have stashed away? Exactly what are they trying to achieve? And if you reload ammo, how is the sale of lead, moulds, gunpowder, etc. going to be regulated (read : taxed) ?

[gaijinsamurai]

They can kiss my ass.

[Zoomie]

I highly doubt such "safety measures" will prove to be that useful to police, as the markings are more than likely to be trashed once its fired. Not to mention the explosion of bureaucracy that these idiots will force state governments to create, it'll likely end up costing all of the taxpayers more than it would cost those of us who buy the bullets, and in a time states are facing deficits, I find it hard to believe that the would pass such legislation.

[MJC9678]

It is disgusting in my opinion. The anit-gun lobby will never stop trying new angles to achieve its sole goal. Most of these bills will be tagged onto state spending bills that have nothing to do with crime prevention. They will be passed without the public's knowledge and little debate. The sad fact is that most "elected representatives" do not have the interests of the citizens they represent in mind when they get into office. Its a career and gravy train, not a public service anymore. The whole system needs to be changed.

[Bia]

Why do you guys need untracable ammo?

Planning a crime?

Seems only a criminal mind would oppose tracking a round to the shooter.

[1911-a1]

Why do you guys need untracable ammo?

Planning a crime?

Seems only a criminal mind would oppose tracking a round to the shooter.

Bia, its not that. If you live in a "free" country, why does the government need to know EVERY SINGLE THING about you?

[Andrew Chalmers]

Bia, its not that. If you live in a "free" country, why does the government need to know EVERY SINGLE THING about you?

It is called the war on terror, drug, crime, etc.

It sucks when the coercive power of the government is turned on you doesn't it?

[Bia]

Bia, its not that. If you live in a "free" country, why does the government need to know EVERY SINGLE THING about you?
Cause Bush & Cheney said so.

[Albatross]

Bia, its not that. If you live in a "free" country, why does the government need to know EVERY SINGLE THING about you?

Yep, this is stupid. They want to mark my .243 and ought 6 ammo, for what? In case my deer reports itself shot? Everyone in politics are morons. Did anyone bother doing a cost analysis on this? What about a cost vs. benefit analysis? I would bet money no.

[MaDuce]

Whats a matter guise are you against CHANGE or something? ;)

[Bia]

Yep, this is stupid. They want to mark my .243 and ought 6 ammo, for what? In case my deer reports itself shot? Everyone in politics are morons. Did anyone bother doing a cost analysis on this? What about a cost vs. benefit analysis? I would bet money no.Lets not be rediculous. You and I and everyone here knows it's to track crime.

Why oppose tracking crime?

[CG51]

Track crime? When do criminals purchase firearms and ammo legally?

Another crap piece of legislation adding burden to the taxpayers.

[Hollis]

I think forcing someone to destroy personal property is covered under eminent domain, the government will have to pay going market price.


One reason on the old AWB, they did not force destruction of pre-ban rifles. I would hate to be the person to challenges the law.

[Hollis]

Track crime? When do criminals purchase firearms and ammo legally?

Another crap piece of legislation adding burden to the taxpayers.


And to basically cause the same effect as banning firearms from lawful citizens.

[Wildgoose]

FLORIDA rocks!!!!woot

Keep your hands off my bullets too!!

[Bia]

Track crime? When do criminals purchase firearms and ammo legally?

Another crap piece of legislation adding burden to the taxpayers.
Good point bender. Food for thought.

Remember folks... I'm not opposing anything... just asking questions.

[CG51]

http://www.youtube.com/v/SDC-XQG1ifo

[1911-a1]

Track crime? When do criminals purchase firearms and ammo legally?

Another crap piece of legislation adding burden to the taxpayers.

+1 I was just about to write that.

This is like that "make ALL guns illegal and criminals wont have them!" WRONG.

Are they going to say "hey lets rob a bank. We need a gun, but oh yeah, they're illegal now... crap."

[Bia]

+1 I was just about to write that.

This is like that "make ALL guns illegal and criminals wont have them!" WRONG.

Are they going to say "hey lets rob a bank. We need a gun, but oh yeah, they're illegal now... crap."
You're absolutely right.
I was thinking more of the type of person that is a regular gun owner... but suddenly flips out and does something stupid. Any deterant to murder is good. But you and bender are correct I must conceed.
:P

[Pappy]

You're absolutely right.
I was thinking more of the type of person that is a regular gun owner... but suddenly flips out and does something stupid. Any deterant to murder is good. But you and bender are correct I must conceed.
:P

Are we going to track all knives too? How about baseball bats? I understand your point. However, the minimal results that the law will provide don't balance out the financial burden in addition to the infringement on individual's rights.

[Andrew Chalmers]

I think forcing someone to destroy personal property is covered under eminent domain, the government will have to pay going market price.


One reason on the old AWB, they did not force destruction of pre-ban rifles. I would hate to be the person to challenges the law.

Unfortunately the federal constitution's takings clause has been interpreted to have a police power exception... whether state constitutions have this exception obviously varies from state to state.

But if a piece of legislation is drafted carefully... say it declares all unregistered ammunition as illegal & authorizes law enforcement to seize the unregistered ammunition whenever it is legally discovered, we're not going to be able to ask for just compensation.

The government can also eliminate the market (make the sale of unregistered ammunition illegal)... so even if one had a takings claim... sorry no value...

[Albatross]

Lets not be rediculous. You and I and everyone here knows it's to track crime.

Why oppose tracking crime?


I don't oppose tracking crime, but I do not support this. I want to know about the analysis on this, and what they hope to accomplish with this law. What will the increase be in convictions? Will it actually deter criminals, I assure you that it wont. This isn't going to slow down or stop murders with guns. They are going to punish the good people of this country for the retards. In the past 3 months our government has lost its mind, id'ing rounds giving away our tax money to failing businesses. Makes me ill. They want to spend our money on crap like this when our kids are failing in school, they cut music and physical education programs to count bullets? The priorities of this country are screwed up.

[deagle]

its not about anti-gun, but regulating and making sure only qualified people have a legitamate reason to carry.

[MJC9678]

It's all to keep us safe guys.....remember that. The government needs to keep us safe from ourselves because we are incapable of thinking for ourselves or protecting ourselves.

[Albatross]

The government is supposed to be afraid of us, not the other way around. Bunch o damned jerkoffs up on capital hill.

[gaijinsamurai]

Lets not be rediculous. You and I and everyone here knows it's to track crime.

Why oppose tracking crime?

As for me, it's not just that.

a) Why should the government want to know how much .30-06, 22LR, 7.62 x 39, 45acp, etc. I've got? It's none of their damn business.

b) I've got a total of 44 rifles, pistols, and shotguns, of various calibers. Along with those are untold boxes and cases of ammo I've bought over the years. I have no idea how much I've spent on it, but let's just say, it's a lot.
Why should I have to destroy it all, just so some dumbass gun control advocate or government bureaucrat can feel better about themselves for fvcking with me?

And believe me, they never really are satisfied with what they call "sensible" gun control laws. Give them this, and they'll be back a year later with something else, like wanting to ban anything with a 5> rd capacity, or anything capable of hurting something larger than a chipmunk.
These idiots know little or nothing about guns and crime anyways, it's just a knee-jerk, non-thought-out piece of crap legislation.

No matter what happens, I will flat-out refuse to destroy my ammo. I'll hide it somewhere if necessary, but they can kiss my ass if they think I'll abide by their bullsh*t.

[BlackFlag]

Are we going to track all knives too? How about baseball bats? I understand your point. However, the minimal results that the law will provide don't balance out the financial burden in addition to the infringement on individual's rights.

Exactly! If people want other people dead, they will find a means to that end. Outlaw guns and/or ammo and shooting deaths and gun relateed crime will go down, but Stabbing deaths and Blade related crime will go up.

I think the whole legislation is total BS and would be suprised if it passed in most of those states.

[Cstafford]

It's all to keep us safe guys.....remember that. The government needs to keep us safe from ourselves because we are incapable of thinking for ourselves or protecting ourselves.

best be trolling......

ammo as it is, is getting very high. when is the gov going to figure out that America isnt like the rest of the world, and gun control will not work here.

[MJC9678]

Exactly! If people want other people dead, they will find a means to that end. Outlaw guns and/or ammo and shooting deaths and gun relateed crime will go down, but Stabbing deaths and Blade related crime will go up.

I think the whole legislation is total BS and would be suprised if it passed in most of those states.

Exactly. Banning guns has not helped the UK, so now they are banning swords....What next banning shovel handles? What makes it worse is that I seriously doubt any of these politicians are THAT stupid. It is getting very hard to argue that their sole goal is public safety.

[vryhpyammoadded]

I can see this one being pushed in the upcoming Federal government’s legislation agenda. Guess I’d best get to stocking up on bullet components for the Lee press in preparation becoming a criminal.

[LRPV]

I would suggest this legislation will fail as it is unenforceable. The administrative burden on enforcement agencies would require significant increases in manpower and budget. It'll die of natural causes.

[EZFEED]

All absurdity of this piece of legislation aside lets look at some of the impacts of it…….

Out of the millions of rounds of ammunition shot in sport, play, and defense each year…………this targets the maybe what…1-3% that is used in crime or some sort of recordable incident. Does the cost to implement this justify the means………..nope.

Ballistic fingerprinting has been around for some time and matches the striations (not just rifling imprints) imprinted on the projectile to the barrel of the weapon fired. This had been a successful means of trace for some time and these wear marks are as unique as a fingerprint. Criminals or individuals with criminal intent are usually up on the know of their “occupation” and are surely not fool enough to go out and actually purchase ammunition for their “gats” the legal way. I suspect we will see some amounts of ammunition theft as well as unregistered illegal “pre-fingerprint” munitions to show up in crimes. So that ultimately means that the only ones who are getting hurt by this are gun owners.

How about those small time ammunition manufacturers who tender to certain specialized calibers or match grade ammunition most of which are in military calibers which are targeted by this? How will they be able to survive the cost in retooling for this? Last I checked civilian munitions manufacturing was not a BOOMING industry to say the least but would best be grouped in the small business sector. That $300-500,000 that they will have to front plus the licensing fee per bullet is going to shut them down or cause severe layoffs……I utterly suspect this is the main goal of this legislation. Given the miniscule amount of sales they make compare to the whole, even tagging the .05 cent to each round to pass on to the customer it would take them a lifetime to recoup their loss.

How about those of us that use old brass and re-fire/reform it to use in our custom calibers or obsolete weapons? What are we to do given our investment and who will produce the ammunition for us? Not the above specialized manufacturers anymore………nope because they will not be able to afford the retool. This shuts us down.

How about those of us that shoot .50 caliber and up like 20mm or 30mm rifles? These are military calibers and no doubt will be demonized by this bill. We have for the longest time been able to sustain ourselves using components that the U.S. military scraps (which provide revenue back to them) and reload it to our applications ourselves. That or we have to manufacture it from scratch or purchase from the above mom and pop suppliers who tender to our class shooter. This shuts us down as well.

How about those of us that own NFA toys like machine guns that purchase and burn up maybe 10,000 rounds or more a year just playing around or at Knob Creek? For the longest we have provided business to small time importers who sell inexpensive surplus ammunition. This will shut down the sale of surplus munitions because no doubt they will be targeting calibers like 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and a whole crapload of other handgun and pistol calibers that are chambered for so-called “assault weapons”. That wonderfully misapplied and incorrect catch phrase that the antis love to use will apply (as outlined in the crime bill) to those sporting rifles and handguns that have those “scary” cosmetic features that make them seem oh so menacing….. That shuts us NFA guys down cause we wont be able to afford to feed our guns BUT it will severely limit or even shut down many hunters and sport shooters alike.

So I ask where is this all going because it cannot work nor does it really target or affect the root of what it claims as its purpose.

If you ask me, this was a pretty sneaky maneuver and one that really stands to knock a chunk out of our rights to firearms.:fork:

We may have the right to keep and bear arms but there is no specified right to the munitions that feed them. The opposition to gun control for the moment is fairly decent and they know they have the gun lobby and that pesky little 2nd amendment to deal with but on the other hand there are no set specific rights that guarantee the availability of munitions to the populous. That is the unprotected foothold that this legislation undoubtedly wishes to seize and expand upon.

Pretty smart move on their part...........let them keep their guns, well just take away their ammo and fine and imprison those who do not comply. Give it a few years and that pretty much makes that tricked AR a useless ornament.:|

[Marshall_Nord]

If this kind of legislation passes, an innocent oversight could make one a criminal. Imagine a new law that would allow a search warrant for incandescent light bulbs (soon to be outlawed) which turns up an old .223 round in a desk drawer. Would this make one an enemy of the Republic? An instant terrorist? This is a slippery slope…

[EZFEED]

The government is supposed to be afraid of us, not the other way around. Bunch o damned jerkoffs up on capital hill.

Exactly......

Unlike some other countries we are not ALLOWED the use of firearms from the federal government but instead WE THE PEOPLE emplaced this provision ourselves to signify that the people hold sovereign power and as a forcible means to say NO to the appointed powers when diplomacy fails and the majority demands change. That’s al its there for.

Don’t know about you guys but if I were a government entity of sorts (an uncorrupt one) I would be damned proud that the populous of my country held such power and were not puss’s. Kinda deters foreign invasion as well.

What does a government have to fear from its people if it is doing the peoples biding? Why disarm the people?:roll::roll::roll:

[EZFEED]

No matter what happens, I will flat-out refuse to destroy my ammo. I'll hide it somewhere if necessary, but they can kiss my ass if they think I'll abide by their bullsh*t.

I feel the same way to bro and would do the same but realy I refuse to have to live in fear, hiding my amo and hoping that someone doesn't turn me in.
I mean once we lose this, its pretty much downhill from there because after we loose our Liberty Teeth (the power to say NO in force) what can we do even as a majority to refute or correct legislation that is disagreeable?

Kinda like downsizing our own military...........who's gonna take you seriousley now when some hole in the wall country wants nukes and you tell them to stop "or else".:|

[Hot Lips]

Not sure I understand the cause for concern. Your weapons would not be banned. Neither would your ammunitions. They would merely be more tracable. Why should a law abiding citizen object? Certainly I think you should be compensated for any distruction and/or exhange of existing ammo.

[wagon]

Not sure I understand the cause for concern. Your weapons would not be banned. Neither would your ammunitions. They would merely be more tracable. Why should a law abiding citizen object? Certainly I think you should be compensated for any distruction and/or exhange of existing ammo.

I think the whole point is crims will still use illegal, untraceable ammo. It will only annoy the 'legal' shooter. Say if I was going to do an armed robbery : I would steal a car, steal a gun and then buy ammo with a serial number? I don't think even your average scumbag crook is that stupid.

[EZFEED]

I would suggest this legislation will fail as it is unenforceable. The administrative burden on enforcement agencies would require significant increases in manpower and budget. It'll die of natural causes.

I wish but I doubt it.

You see this is not a new thing. This was attempted back in the late 90's-early 2000's as I seem to remember but it failed miserably and more so after one of its primary backers goofed and spilled the beans at some meeting/dinner blurting out the socialist agenda behind the legislation. Happened a while back and then we never hear of it again just as if it had been swept under the rug.

This is the first time I have seen it actually move out of the box and into acceptance by so many states. If it were going to die then it would have done so before gaining this much momentum.

Isn’t it funny where our politician’s minds are at…..what happened to the focus on the economy?????

Or maybe this is the kind of focus on the economy that they are hoping for:)………..they’ve figured out that America can best be forced into globalization when its people no longer have the ability to do anything but comply?

………….I feel a possible tin foil hat moment coming on! :-D But then again…….it might not be too far fetched? :|

[Hot Lips]

I think the whole point is crims will still use illegal, untraceable ammo. It will only annoy the 'legal' shooter. Say if I was going to do an armed robbery : I would steal a car, steal a gun and then buy ammo with a serial number? I don't think even your average scumbag crook is that stupid.

Where would they get the untracable ammo from if we destroy existing and cease to produce uncoded ammo?

[Hot Lips]

Isn’t it funny where our politician’s minds are at…..what happened to the focus on the economy?????

There is no money (tax or otherwise) to be made on this? Gun sales are already up.

[EZFEED]

Not sure I understand the cause for concern. Your weapons would not be banned. Neither would your ammunitions. They would merely be more tracable. Why should a law abiding citizen object?

Elimination through taxation. If the manufacturers can’t comply they will be shut down, I highly doubt they will be given allowances due to their budgets.
Law abiding citizens are the only ones that will be hurt by this because this will not work, there is no way it will work.......and to implement it would cost jobs and an ungodly amount of resources to create and maintain a registry all in hopes that the "maybe" 1% of criminal/recordable incident projectiles recovered will aid in the conviction of criminals. A dude would be a plain fool to go out and kill/rob with munitions that are registered in his name; he can steal it or buy it underground. Might be able to frame someone in the process too! lol


Certainly I think you should be compensated for any distruction and/or exhange of existing ammo.

That my dear will never happen. There's just too much out there, I may have as much as 10-20K per caliber, some of which is special/rare and $4 per shot.
If it encompases NFA munitions which it very well could, then you are looking at stuff that can be $10 to $50 or more per pop.

[digrar]

Where would they get the untracable ammo from if we destroy existing and cease to produce uncoded ammo?

Hand reloads would become a highly profitable illegal activity.

[EZFEED]

Where would they get the untracable ammo from if we destroy existing and cease to produce uncoded ammo?

Knowing that this is coming up wouldn't that be enough to prepare for a market in untraceable/registered amo now. There is soooooooo much of it out there and on the streets there is no way that anyone who is unfearful of the law or in the "occupation" (criminal) would actualy turn it in.

[Hot Lips]

I don't see gun ownership being eliminated through this. What are we talking about $0.05/bullet? I read about guys in here paying hundreds of dollars for new weapons to add to thier existing collections... so like any collector you adapt to market changes and you buy one or two less weapons and more ammo. Or instead of shooting 10K/yr (disturbing) you shoot 5k/yr.

If it demands an "ungodly amount of resources" wouldn't it actually create jobs?

[EZFEED]

There is no money (tax or otherwise) to be made on this? Gun sales are already up.

Oh yes'm there is. You cannot create an agency, equip, or staff it without some influx of funds.
Lots of little folks out there too who do this that tender to a specific facet of the shooting world and who specialize in that targeted ammo.

You cannot force a re-tool of a manufacturer without some sort of bailout or allowance for the loss of jobs, equipment, contracts.

[Hot Lips]

That my dear will never happen. There's just too much out there, I may have as much as 10-20K per caliber, some of which is special/rare and $4 per shot.

If it encompases NFA munitions which it very well could, then you are looking at stuff that can be $10 to $50 or more per pop.

I was referring to what Hollis said earlier "I think forcing someone to destroy personal property is covered under eminent domain, the government will have to pay going market price." Certainly environmentalist would want to see it recycled. And there would have to be some formal means of collection. So I would think something could be worked out... still plenty of gunowners taking this into consideration aren't there?

[Zoomie]

Where would they get the untracable ammo from if we destroy existing and cease to produce uncoded ammo?
Easy - outside of the country.


If it demands an "ungodly amount of resources" wouldn't it actually create jobs?

It would create an ungodly amount of bureaucratic crap to deal with.

[Hot Lips]

Hand reloads would become a highly profitable illegal activity.

Do we track the sale of supplies yet?

[Hot Lips]

Knowing that this is coming up wouldn't that be enough to prepare for a market in untraceable/registered amo now. There is soooooooo much of it out there and on the streets there is no way that anyone who is unfearful of the law or in the "occupation" (criminal) would actualy turn it in.

At the very least it's a way to drive up short term sales through fear. ;)

[Zoomie]

Do we track the sale of supplies yet?
Wow. :roll:
Brings back flashes of Nazi Occupied Europe where they banned any tools that had the potential to be used in sabotage operations.

[Hot Lips]

It would create an ungodly amount of bureaucratic crap to deal with.

Which requires man power. Like any change in an industry the types of jobs might change, but general headcount wouldn't neccessarily be eliminated.

[Hot Lips]

Wow. :roll:
Brings back flashes of Nazi Occupied Europe where they banned any tools that had the potential to be used in sabotage operations.

It's a legit question. Dig mentioned hand reloads. Unless people are paying cash, there is generally a way to track purchases already. I know certain things can't be sent through Postal Services which also can create tracable paperwork. So if legal gun owners are buying/using encoded ammo.... who would need to buy the supplies to hand make ammo? Creates another avenue for narrowing a focus on criminal suspects... maybe?

[Zoomie]

It's a legit question. Dig mentioned hand reloads. Unless people are paying cash, there is generally a way to track purchases. So if legal gun owners are buying/using encoded ammo.... who would need to buy the supplies to hand make ammo?
People who have rare caliber weapons where it's cheaper and easier to obtain by hand loading.

[EZFEED]

I don't see gun ownership being eliminated through this. What are we talking about $0.05/bullet? I read about guys in here paying hundreds of dollars for new weapons to add to thier existing collections... so like any collector you adapt to market changes and you buy one or two less weapons and more ammo. Or instead of shooting 10K/yr (disturbing) you shoot 5k/yr.

If it demands an "ungodly amount of resources" wouldn't it actually create jobs?

If it doesn't work how do they have any right to pass such legislation that would cause such a disruption? Better yet why.......

The affects of the re-tool and all involved will devastate or severely impact munitions manufacturers compared to what it will cost to create an agency or another division to BATF. Still to maintain a registry, update it, staff the agency, etc wil take a considerable chunk and I wouldn't doubt on an expansion on the 1 billion budget that BATF costs us.
Lets say they do implement a buyback program. I highly doubt they could afford it but if so where will that money come from?????

.......All to trace a teeny tiny fraction of storebought ammo that may or may not be readable after deformation on impact???????
Ammo no doubt that will be traced back to a dead end because it was stolen, lost, etc.......:cantbeli:

Maybe it was born out of good intentions (doubt it) but it doesn't seem justifiable to me.
Besides, the Road to Hell is paved with what??????:roll:

[EZFEED]

At the very least it's a way to drive up short term sales through fear. ;)

Yes but by the wrong people too. I can just see whordes of gang members heading to Wal-Mart now to stock up on cheap 9X19mm.......YACK:-(

[Policía Loco]

1. With all of these peices of legislation sponsered or co-sponsered by very few legislators, they seem more like statements by far leaning politicians. They have also been refered to numerous commitees, most likely as being "unfavorable to the calender". It looks to me as if they are being brushed aside to these commitees to eventually get rid of them, or avoid dealing with them.

2.According to South Carolina's bill, something like this would be funded by "fees in an amount not to exceed one-half of one cent ($0.005) per round of ammunition or per bullet, where the accumulated fee amount shall not exceed the cost to pay for the infrastructure, implementation, operational, enforcement, and future development costs associated with this article."

3. Ammo can be passed around like candy. It could a waste of time and resources to trace it back to the owner, only to find out that it was sold, lost, etc.

4. What is to stop a buyer traveling across state lines or using the internet to purchase?


I'll believe it when/if it happens.

[EZFEED]

Which requires man power. Like any change in an industry the types of jobs might change, but general headcount wouldn't neccessarily be eliminated.

But not enough compared to the ones who lose their jobs due to the change.

[Albatross]

3. Ammo can be passed around like candy. It could a waste of time and resources to trace it back to the owner, only to find out that it was sold, lost, etc.




Never even thought about that, I have no idea how many times I have shot my friends ammo.

[Hot Lips]

How can you know if something will or will not work if you don't try? This isn't being implemented to restrict gun ownership, it's a proposed measure to assist law enforcement in criminal investigations, which was the intent of gun-control. This a compromise of sorts.

What stats are you using to compare costs before/after?

You might not get current market value in a buy back, which would surely jump up, but a lessor figure based on previous trends? Or tax breaks on the loss? I don't know. I would hope owners would get something out of it.

[EZFEED]

People who have rare caliber weapons where it's cheaper and easier to obtain by hand loading.

I use 5.56X45mm cases cut down to fit some obsolete revolvers. 7.62X39mm cases can be reformed to 7.92X33mm Kurz which is like a buck or two a shot.
Many more applications for many other targeted calibers.

[Hot Lips]

Never even thought about that, I have no idea how many times I have shot my friends ammo.

It's still an avenue for criminal investigations. If your friend shoots someone with your ammo and they come knocking on your door.... they've already narrowed their focus to people who would have had access to your ammo.

[Zoomie]

How can you know if something will or will not work if you don't try? This isn't being implemented to restrict gun ownership, it's a proposed measure to assist law enforcement in criminal investigations, which was the intent of gun-control. This a compromise of sorts.

What stats are you using to compare costs before/after?

You might not get current market value in a buy back, which would surely jump up, but a lessor figure based on previous trends? Or tax breaks on the loss? I don't know. I would hope owners would get something out of it.
Whatever happened to people's right to privacy?
Secondly, there's sooo many ways that this system can be abused and exploited, it's downright sad.

[Hot Lips]

Whatever happened to people's right to privacy?
Secondly, there's sooo many ways that this system can be abused and exploited, it's downright sad.

You still have right to privacy. Your credit card companies, ISP, utlities, etc all have records on you that the government and law enforcement can use as needed and each are required by law to uphold your rights to privacy. I don't think they'll be posting your purchases as public records?

Every system can be exploded if an indivudal has the right skills and motivation. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to improve the process.

[California Joe]

HL, currently, the only people that reload are shooters/hunters looking for supreme accuracy from their rifles, people with rifles with obsolete calibers as EZ stated, and target shooters that have an obsessive nature when it comes to developing the perfectly measured load for their individually hand loaded bullets for a specific rifle. It is true that you could find all of this stuff through sales receipts already.

I have a few pounds of blackpowder for my flintlocks, that is already controlled by the ATF for obvious reasons. It is traceable to where I purchased it of course and they have records of who they sold it to by law. But I can run round balls for my rifles with lead and a roundball bullet mold.

[McNasty]

Section 2. Definitions.
For purposes of this chapter, “coded ammunition” means a bullet carrying a
unique identifier that has been applied by etching onto the base of the bullet projectile.


http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5576/pliersma3.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/951/p4069748low4.jpg

They really thought this one through.

[Hot Lips]

Not trying to be obtuse, but for those that make their own bullets... how feasible (or not) would it be to be licensed to encode your own ammo?

[Cstafford]

They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more!




well.... will that put a end to bulk buying? or even less use of .22lr, because i wouldnt pay $25 a box.

[Albatross]

Not trying to be obtuse, but for those that make their own bullets... how feasible (or not) would it be to be licensed to encode your own ammo?


Not very, there are already to many reloaders out there that wouldn't pay attention. They could force the people who make the reloaders to make an "etcher" into the reloader.

Its still ridiculous. I just think there are better places that we could be spending our time and money.

[Zoomie]

Not trying to be obtuse, but for those that make their own bullets... how feasible (or not) would it be to be licensed to encode your own ammo?
Most likely not feasible at all, because I suspect they would make it as hard to be licensed as it is to get a Class III Permit, not to mention you have to purchase the additional equipment for encoding.

[CG51]

How about the government spend money on gun buy backs if they are really concerned about crime. Federal money for states to use to purchase guns from the streets.

In turn that money will go back into the economy from America's favorite pastime, buying sh!t. p-)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Hot Lips sounds like a bigger anti-gun person then me.

[Hot Lips]

I don't mind some. But when people start talking about having weapons that can fire off large numbers of rounds, needing to mount weapons, or that they can fire off 10K rounds I do scratch my head about it all a bit. It goes beyond the need to hunt or protect ones home.

It's true that guns don't kill people, people kill people. So the more a person is obsessed with weapons and using them, the more leery I am of them. When I read people complaining about finances in one thread and talking about buying yet another pricey weapon for their collection in another thread... it seems irrational and I have to wonder what the motivation is.

But I'm a suburban gal, what do I know.

[Hollis]

Cool, I don't understand why, so I should control it. Amazing other people feel they can control other people. Who know what other people do in the dark. We need to control that, I don't know what it is, but it needs to be controlled.


That's that way it hits me, Why should you are any one say what I own, have, keep or use when I do not break any laws, harm other people etc.

Why should I tell you what to do, what to own because I don't understand why you do have it or do it?

I think gun control for many people is not about "safety " or crime, but more about control over other people. The power to control others, tell others how to live, etc. Most so called anti-gun people are completely ignorant about firearms, ammunition, ballistics, machining, etc.......... they just want to control others to live like they think others should live.


Ok Rant over.

This whole uncoded ammunition is not about ammunition being sold, it is do ammunition can not be sold. It can not be done. It is away around the 2nd Amendment, it is to make guns useless except for being a club.

[California Joe]

I agree with you about the "ignorance and control" part Hollis. It makes me cringe when I see people on TV completely misinterpreting things about firearms.

Your argument is Libertarian in nature I'd say.

"Antis" in most cases go far beyond the common sense aspect of their arguments and quickly head to the control part. Be it guns or Gay people or any other damned social ill that they perceive as needing to be controlled because dammit, they just know better.

[Dispatcher]

Is there going to be a limit to the amounts of ammo you can buy?

[Hot Lips]

Cool, I don't understand why, so I should control it. Amazing other people feel they can control other people. Who know what other people do in the dark. We need to control that, I don't know what it is, but it needs to be controlled.


That's that way it hits me, Why should you are any one say what I own, have, keep or use when I do not break any laws, harm other people etc.

Why should I tell you what to do, what to own because I don't understand why you do have it or do it?


Gun-control, Gay-control... We all have our issues in which we prefer to put restrictions on other peoples lives. I think gun-control has more merit then something like controlling affairs of the heart.

This bill isn't proposing to take weapons away from anyone though, is it?



.

[Dling]

It makes me cringe when I see people on TV completely misinterpreting things about firearms.

http://ca.youtube.com/v/9rGpykAX1fo

http://ca.youtube.com/v/BRQqieimwLQ

I agree with the others that say it can't be done. There's just way to much to keep track of. Keeping track of guns is one thing but all the ammunition to go with it?? It's not like its going to stop anyone from breaking the law anyways.

[Hot Lips]

Is there going to be a limit to the amounts of ammo you can buy?

Unless I missed it, I don't think so. PA House Bill #2228 (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=PDF&sessYr=2007&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=2228&pn=3188)

In PA we already have restrictions on buying alcohol... have to get it at a state store, can't have it shipped in unless it's sent to a state store and you pick it up there, have to pay taxes on items shipped in, etc. This doesn't seem much different to me. Can still get what I want.

[rhino]

all I can ask is "Why HL hates freedom?"p-)

okay, bad joke

the more I think about it the more I just cant see how is the gov going to pull this off without spending an gastronomical amout of $ (=%^%@$)???
there are sooooo many people reloading, and soooo many other ways to bring in illegal ammo into a country its just undoable in my humble opinion

[Hollis]

This bill isn't proposing to take weapons away from anyone though, is it?



.


Yes it is. Now why, I am sure you can do research.

[Hot Lips]

there are sooooo many people reloading,

Reloading is creating your own bullet from scratch? Or could you feasible buy multiple bullets with the same serial number to reload into a reusable cartridge with your own powder and whatever else you need to do it?

Just trying to understand how this works.

[Hot Lips]

Yes it is.

I presume you mean the bullets and I thought you said earlier that they couldn't do that without compensating owners for them.... which they could use to purchase the new bullets. I'd hope that's how it would work. Which isn't exactly taking weapons away, but exchanging them.

[rhino]

some bullets are manufactured, some are cast by gun owners, gun powder is manufactured, so are the casings and primers and then there are hand pressess, how many in the norht america??? but just simply trying to figure out how many bullets are spend each year is mind bogling, its like that chess riddle about the board and the grains

[Hollis]

I presume you mean the bullets and I thought you said earlier that they couldn't do that without compensating owners for them.... which they could use to purchase the new bullets. I'd hope that's how it would work. Which isn't exactly taking weapons away, but exchanging them.

And I am researching, as I usually do.


Let say the method to install a "code" to actually help to point to who bought the ammo was impossible. That would mean the ammo companies can not make ammo. OR. If the cost was very very high, that prohibition would also kill the industry, again making ammo impossible to get legally.

There is also was/is a bill to require firearms to "tag" the bullet too.


BTW one of the tactics that has been used and is being used is to unnecessarily burden the firearm industry. It is basic economic tactics to make a industry to costly to continue.


I am not talking about compensation, but making a law, that would effectively end LEGAL ammunition production and sales.

[benbach]

The bill that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacturer in a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers. Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded.

Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.) They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more!

See sample:
http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation/Ammo%20Accountability%20-%20Sample%20Legislation.pdf

If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun

This legislation is currently pending in 18 states: Alabama, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington.

To find more about the anti-gun group that is sponsoring this legislation and the specific legislation for each state, go to:

http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm (http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm)

(Copied from another forum. Mods, if this is in the wrong place please move)

haha NM is in there...no but that sucks

[Hot Lips]

There are sportsman and gun enthusiasts in both parties and inbetween. I can't see them allowing something that would kill any legal money making industry right now though. It sounds like maybe they are trying to find a way to make [more] money off of it perhaps. Like they do with tobacco taxes and as they do here in PA with alcohol.

I'm trying to find some info on $'s involved. It does sound improbable to implement with the little detail presented. In theory the idea seems logical to me, but not so sure about implementation and results gained.

What's to stop someone from reloading to an encoded case? Nothing. If someone is caught doing so and they haven't harmed anyone nor have any criminal history I'm not sure I want my tax dollars working towards imposing penalties for it.

[Shadowstorm]

I don't mind some. But when people start talking about having weapons that can fire off large numbers of rounds, needing to mount weapons, or that they can fire off 10K rounds I do scratch my head about it all a bit. It goes beyond the need to hunt or protect ones home.

It's true that guns don't kill people, people kill people. So the more a person is obsessed with weapons and using them, the more leery I am of them. When I read people complaining about finances in one thread and talking about buying yet another pricey weapon for their collection in another thread... it seems irrational and I have to wonder what the motivation is.

But I'm a suburban gal, what do I know.
Well, there's people who likes to collect automatic weapons as a hobby and take them out shoot them sometimes like Ted Nugent. Yep, thats true guns don't kill people, but the person who is aiming and pulling the trigger on another person is a shooter. Gun is a tool to kill someone just like a knife, hammer, baseball bat and other weapons and also your bare hands and feet can be use as a weapon too. But, just like everyone said it's a stupid bill with several loopholes found in it.

[Bia]

Not sure I understand the cause for concern. Your weapons would not be banned. Neither would your ammunitions. They would merely be more tracable. Why should a law abiding citizen object? Certainly I think you should be compensated for any distruction and/or exhange of existing ammo.
Careful HL... I asked exact same question and already got one nasty PM and accused of being anti gun liberal in a totaly diff thread.

Prob the 20th time I have said this over the years... I'm not anti gun.

[LineDoggie]

I don't mind some. But when people start talking about having weapons that can fire off large numbers of rounds, needing to mount weapons, or that they can fire off 10K rounds I do scratch my head about it all a bit. It goes beyond the need to hunt or protect ones home.

It's true that guns don't kill people, people kill people. So the more a person is obsessed with weapons and using them, the more leery I am of them. When I read people complaining about finances in one thread and talking about buying yet another pricey weapon for their collection in another thread... it seems irrational and I have to wonder what the motivation is.

But I'm a suburban gal, what do I know.

Well IIRC there's nothing in the Constitution about Hunting or Sporting Purposes as the quantifier of what types of Firearms to be allowed the Citizenry. I've had exposure to Numerous Firearms since I was a Teen, and the only time I've used a Firearm in anger was in Iraq. When I was in fights I used my fists, not a 1911. I own dreaded "Assault Weapons" and Antiques from the Civil War era, both can kill just as easily if used improperly.

However some Collectors go batty for Short Barrel Firearms, or Machineguns, much like car owners want autos that could do 3 times the Max. speed limit. Those Gun owners that do go through a tougher Vetting than someone like me. And since those firearms are enormously expensive, unlikely to walk into a 7-11 and rob it with a 140K FG-42.

I do agree if someone is broke, the last thing they need to do is buy any Luxury type item. Be it a Steyr AUG or Holland & Holland shotgun, or a Cadillac Escalade or latest BMW.

[Angelino]

Maybe a dumb question, but has someone actually done tests to see if they can still read the markings on the base of a bullet after it has been fired?? There isn't that much room at the base of a 22 bullet to start with, so whatever markings they put in the base will need to be tiny and intricate. Heck I don't see anyone putting the equivalent of a barcode on the base of a 45 either. Top that with the distortion caused to the bullet after firing and I'm guessing that at least some of the markings will be deformed or rubbed off.

I would like to see the proponents of this bill fire off a few hundred rounds and then tell me what was stamped at the base of each bullet with > 99% accuracy.

Incidentally, what do they propose to do with those folks who like to go hunting with muzzle-loaders?

[digrar]

Incidentally, what do they propose to do with those folks who like to go hunting with muzzle-loaders?

I was thinking the same but with lead shot?

[CamoDeafie]

well... if they say we're required to destroy our unregistered ammo....you know what i'm thinking?

a revolution....a massive shootout versus the Federals and maybe sending the unregistered ammo over state boundaries to those states that doesnt have this bill? ;)
ah who am i kidding, they would rather they be the ones destroying OUR ammos...instead of "trusting the lawful citizenship to keep them in check:"

[El Diablo Rojo]

well... if they say we're required to destroy our unregistered ammo....you know what i'm thinking?

a revolution....a massive shootout versus the Federals and maybe sending the unregistered ammo over state boundaries to those states that doesnt have this bill? ;)
ah who am i kidding, they would rather they be the ones destroying OUR ammos...instead of "trusting the lawful citizenship to keep them in check:"
Who do you think you are, Samuel Adams?

[EZFEED]

Well IIRC there's nothing in the Constitution about Hunting or Sporting Purposes as the quantifier of what types of Firearms to be allowed the Citizenry. I've had exposure to Numerous Firearms since I was a Teen, and the only time I've used a Firearm in anger was in Iraq. When I was in fights I used my fists, not a 1911. I own dreaded "Assault Weapons" and Antiques from the Civil War era, both can kill just as easily if used improperly.

However some Collectors go batty for Short Barrel Firearms, or Machineguns, much like car owners want autos that could do 3 times the Max. speed limit. Those Gun owners that do go through a tougher Vetting than someone like me. And since those firearms are enormously expensive, unlikely to walk into a 7-11 and rob it with a 140K FG-42.

I do agree if someone is broke, the last thing they need to do is buy any Luxury type item. Be it a Steyr AUG or Holland & Holland shotgun, or a Cadillac Escalade or latest BMW.

Yep that 'Sporting Purposes' mess has really done the gun community a great deal of disservice, most recently this: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/112205openletter.pdf
Which restricts us from obtaining replacement barrels for our weapons manufactured overseas. Now we are getting raped price wise to have them manufactured here.

"When I was in fights I used my fists, not a 1911" Amen to that Linedoggie.

Kids these days are taking in all of the violence they can through violent games and movies, etc and don’t think much about picking up a gun to settle a dispute, sad generation of animals we are raising these days. What you program in will come out and filling their minds with all of that hate and evil it’s a wonder we don’t have more Columbine incidents. Like I said in another topic, when I was a kid we usually were packing heat in our vehicles when we went to school. Come hunting season it wasn't uncommon to see trucks with shotguns, etc in the windows cause that’s what we did after school as a pastime, not sit at home in front of a TV or playstation. I don’t think it ever crossed our minds to do something crazy with a gun, nope, you exchanged your blows, pride was hurt, and that was that. Both parties went home at the end of the day and sometimes even friendships sprang out of those tusses.

Right you are again LD.
I have been working on a 351 Windsor to drop into my mustang on and off for a few years. It will be hot and have some serious pep and will most probably easily exceed the posted speed limit. I will probably never open it up or get to experience its full potential too often but that doesn’t stop me or quell the excitement of the idea. I could have left the 200 6cyl in it but what fun is that to listen to?

Same goes with guns Hot Lips.....there is something awfully sexy with a machine tricked out to its full potential. Also most of these "military look-alike" (more accurate term) far exceed in function and features their conventional sporting equivalents.
In example and also shown in the firearm thread is my number 1 "DEER RIFLE" http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/EZFEED/Picture064-1.jpg
I can do so much more with this in so many more conditions with so many different types of ammo than I could with a similar bolt action .308.

There are very few crimes that are actually committed with these types of weapons to begin with and one of the main reasons is cost. The majority of firearm crimes are committed with cheap Saturday night specials, sawed of shotguns, and some rifles. All of these are easily available because they make up the bulk of the firearms sold in this country and are fall within an acceptable disposable price range, even more so when sold on the street. The all too common “snub nose, duct tape gripped, malfunctioning .38 revolver” has got to be at the top of the list as street queen with baggy pants side wearing baseball cap type.
There was a study done by the DOJ years back on the impact of the first AWB and the conclusions were that so called “assault weapons” played a miniscule role in violent crime....proving that the ban was just another piece of feel good legislation to dupe the people into thinking that the government was being proactive in countering the criminal element....and soccer moms across the nation did applaud.

Also to touch a little on what Linedoggie stated about finances and collecting firearms. You will find that we are very resourceful people. There is allot of trading done in this hobby because very few of us have bottomless pocketbooks. When I want something I usually don’t have to pull out cash to get it, instead I try to buy when the prices are down and shop around for the better deals on the items that I want. This way I can usually turn some amount of profit when I sell something and thus add more to my collection. I surely can’t afford most of what’s out there so I try and trade or sell what I can to get a new item in. There’s allot of tact involved and sometimes I am successful but then more often I have to sit out ad just wait till I can afford it.

[EZFEED]

Maybe a dumb question, but has someone actually done tests to see if they can still read the markings on the base of a bullet after it has been fired?? There isn't that much room at the base of a 22 bullet to start with, so whatever markings they put in the base will need to be tiny and intricate. Heck I don't see anyone putting the equivalent of a barcode on the base of a 45 either. Top that with the distortion caused to the bullet after firing and I'm guessing that at least some of the markings will be deformed or rubbed off.

I would like to see the proponents of this bill fire off a few hundred rounds and then tell me what was stamped at the base of each bullet with > 99% accuracy.

Incidentally, what do they propose to do with those folks who like to go hunting with muzzle-loaders?

I doubt they will touch .22's...........at least not at this point. I'm not saying that it isn't any less lethal but the fact is they know they wont get a foot in the door if they paint it too broadly. .22's are just about untraceable anyway.

I think they claim that they can recover the serial number with as little as 20% of the base remaining but I am more than wiling to bet that these tests weren’t done on anything but ballistic gelatin and they are not accounting for deflection and tumbling. Once a bullet hits a bone or encounters an object like a tree branch or brush mid-flight it throws the harmonics off and will cause a tumble further distorting the bullet.

This is all irrelevant anyway because "Joe criminal" isn't stupid enough to have purchased and registered his ammo under his name anyway.

Just another means to end private ownership of firearms by going after an unprotected component and then eventually eliminating the effectiveness of legally owned firearms. :-*$

As for muzzle loaders it aint gonna happen if this takes off but it does open it up to those future expansions I'm sure. Probably something along the lines of a mould with some sort of unique marking in it that is registered to you.
I dunno, we could get into some serious speculation on that but it would require an extra tall and pointy tin foil hat....maybe with some rabbit ear antennae too.....:roll:

Then again...............they could include moulds with reloading supplies? It's pretty easy to thumb a roundbal or conical into an empty case.

Guess its posible that even us primitive hunters might be exchanging our buckskins for orange jumpsuits? rofl

[Bia]

well... if they say we're required to destroy our unregistered ammo....you know what i'm thinking?

a revolution....a massive shootout versus the Federals
Rally for the cause you go girl!


Yes... a shootout with the feds will help the cause.
/insert biggest eyeroll ever.

[EZFEED]

HAHAHAHA! :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/EZFEED/ammo.jpg

[EZFEED]

Rally for the cause you go girl!


Yes... a shootout with the feds will help the cause.
/insert biggest eyeroll ever.

^^^^ Ditto girl.

Very unwise choice of words there CamoDeafie.
It would be a sad day if ever it would get to that point....

[BlackFlag]

I'm sure survivialists/ NWO conspiracy theorists will Love this.

With this and the possible AWB I smell a Waco/Ruby Ridge in not too distant the future.

[Firefly26]

I'm strongly against this ammo tax. That is just adding insult to injury. I see where they are trying to go with this, but no, this isn't going to change a thing. This also screws people who try to save money by reloading ammo. This bill is written by stupid people who know nothing about firearms. But all the blind sheep will go along with it because they think that the only way to get ammo is to buy it at the store and all of these billions of rounds that are out there will simply never be used again because they are illegal.

[Shadowstorm]

I'm strongly against this ammo tax. That is just adding insult to injury. I see where they are trying to go with this, but no, this isn't going to change a thing. This also screws people who try to save money by reloading ammo. This bill is written by stupid people who know nothing about firearms.
Definitely agree, but will see this along with other anti-gun bills with Democrats in the house who want to put something against having a gun.

[CamoDeafie]

hahahahaha.

that whole revolution versus Federals line was meant to be tongue in cheek.......

hahaha

well. in all honesty, i dont know.. my father and i have a bunch of ammo cans full of ammo from at least 8 years ago when he stocked up and had the security safes unlocked for the rioting after y2k, which never happened. so....after that..well...crap, being in Oregon, we dont give a hoot what happens in those states that the bill's being passed through, but we're just hoping that they'd vote the bill out and reject it out right..but politicians being politicians, never really know.

[Bia]

Ahhh... the Y2K people*

*I use that term loosely.

[Pappy]

Ahhh... the Y2K people*

*I use that term loosely.

Are you mocking my 1960s style bomb shelter designed to withstand the coming y2k zombie apocolypse/nuclear holocost!?!

haha

[Atlantic Friend]

Track crime? When do criminals purchase firearms and ammo legally?

Fact is, taxpayers do commit crime as well. I mean, not every gun crime is linked to people operating with illegal weapons/ammo. Should a legit gun owner get mad at his/her ex-spouse, drink a little too much and pump the spouse full of bullets, wouldn't it be nice if the ammo could be rapidly tracked down to the person committing the homicide ? What about the people selling guns and ammo at gun fairs ? These guns and bullets never show up later in crime cases ?

Now if it was me writing the laws, I'd indeed include a provision saying that if you bring 100 $ worth of uncoded ammo, you should either get 100 $ or 100 $ worth of coded ammunition, because forcing you to destroy private property that is not illegal per se at your own expense is rarely a good idea.

[LineDoggie]

Where would they get the untracable ammo from if we destroy existing and cease to produce uncoded ammo?

Where does Cocaine come from in the US? Illegal Aliens? Bootleg rum? if there is perceived to be a Lucrative Market, it will be smuggled in. Hell the St. Regis Mohawks were involved in Cigarette smuggling into Canada a few years back.


A Few years ago, A supply of Full Auto AK's was confiscated from a shipping container in Cali bound for gangs. Operation Dragon Fire caught them in the sting.

[cliffg]

This initiative seems to have been round for a year or two. A check of some of the links to bills show them to have been defeated or tied up in committee (not a good sign for passage), so I don't think we need to be too alarmed. Yet. Anti-ammunition proposals have been put forward a number of times before (the first I recall in Louisiana was in 1975), and have not really gone anywhere.

Further, the Heller decision may complicate matters for a proposal such as this from the point of substantive exercise of rights, and the confiscation of materials already legal seems to ignore the notion of ex post facto. (Any Juris Doctors out there?)

I think this bears watching, but as of now it doesn't seem to have a lot of political traction.

[Will938]

Fact is, taxpayers do commit crime as well. I mean, not every gun crime is linked to people operating with illegal weapons/ammo. Should a legit gun owner get mad at his/her ex-spouse, drink a little too much and pump the spouse full of bullets, wouldn't it be nice if the ammo could be rapidly tracked down to the person committing the homicide ?


It can't rapidly tracked to the person committing the homicide, but rather the person who purchased the ammo. Coded ammo isn't going to tell you if she was killed by the husband, lover, or criminal.

To everyone:
This is a constitutional right you're trying to infringe upon, not just something you dislike. States that have mandated a casing from each purchased firearm have figured out that it's merely an expensive program that doesn't stop or even solve crimes. So excuse me if I get frustrated when you tell me we need to shred up our rights a bit because you think it might make a difference. History shows that it does jack ****, logic tells us that there are so many ways around this it's just sad. And what's this bull**** that "only the criminal mind wouldn't support such a measure." Yeah, or someone who appreciates the constitution and a logical thought process.

Use a revolver
Use a few of the TRILLIONS of uncoded ammo around
Steal someone's ammo
Reload your own ammo
Use a weapon other than a firearm
etc etc etc

Instead of asking us why we shouldn't do this (because the answers seem to be never ending), why don't y'all explain why we should? Explain why we should be burdened with added costs, loss of privacy, property loss, easy criminal charges for a stupid crime, risk to industry, and an infringement on the constitution. What evidence do you have that this will do anything? As I said earlier, the other comparable programs in the US were expensive failures.

[gaijinsamurai]

^ Excellent post, Will938. You said it well.

[Hilbert]

Fact is, taxpayers do commit crime as well. I mean, not every gun crime is linked to people operating with illegal weapons/ammo. Should a legit gun owner get mad at his/her ex-spouse, drink a little too much and pump the spouse full of bullets, wouldn't it be nice if the ammo could be rapidly tracked down to the person committing the homicide ? What about the people selling guns and ammo at gun fairs ? These guns and bullets never show up later in crime cases ?

Now if it was me writing the laws, I'd indeed include a provision saying that if you bring 100 $ worth of uncoded ammo, you should either get 100 $ or 100 $ worth of coded ammunition, because forcing you to destroy private property that is not illegal per se at your own expense is rarely a good idea.

Not buying it, sorry.

Your right, unfortunately some people do use legally owned firearms in crimes, but it's also a fact that most American Gun Owners and I simply cannot support the implemention of more damn regulation!

This country has already ripped the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights (and many other parts of the Constitution, but that's a different story) to shreds with existing legislation.

EDIT: Will beat me to it, just saw Atlantic Friend's post and went straight to reply.

[Eknytz]

Has this been passed yet?
I hope not.

[akd]

So, how are they going to know how much ammo you have stashed away? Exactly what are they trying to achieve?

Intimidation and harassment.

[Mr_GoodKat]

It has already started... Ammunition Accountability Legislation
Remember how Obama said that he wasn't going to take your guns? Well, it seems that his allies in the anti-gun world have no problem with taking your ammo! The bill that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana ) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacture a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers.

Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded. Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.) They will also charge a 05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more! If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun!

This legislation is currently pending in 18 states: Alabama, Arizona,
California,Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina,Tennessee, and Washington.

Send to your friends in these states AND fight to dissolve this BILL!! To find more about the anti-gun group that is sponsoring this legislation and the specific legislation for each state, go to:
http://ammunitionaccountability.org/



Current Bill Summary
SB 1200 - This act requires the department of public safety to develop and maintain an ammunition coding system database containing certain information provided by manufacturers and vendors of firearm ammunition. The information shall only be made available to law enforcement agencies to be used in criminal investigations. The database shall be developed and operational by January 1, 2009. Manufacturers and vendors that do not provide the required information shall be subject to civil fines. The cost of maintaining the database shall be paid from the newly created "Ammunition Coding System Database Fund". Vendors of firearm ammunition shall charge an additional one-half cent per bullet or round of ammunition and the money shall be forwarded to the state treasurer to be deposited into the fund.
Under this act, a person commits the crime of unlawful sale of uncoded ammunition if he or she sells any ammunition that has not been coded after March 1, 2009. Unlawful sale of uncoded ammunition is a Class A misdemeanor. A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of uncoded ammunition if he or she possesses ammunition that has not been coded or where the code has been rendered unreadable after January 1, 2011. Unlawful possession of uncoded ammunition is Class A misdemeanor. The term "coded ammunition" shall mean a bullet carrying a unique identifier that has been applied by etching onto the base of the bullet projectile.

[GazB]

Hahahahaha.... registering individual firearms has been proven to be expensive and time consuming and ultimately pointless in many countries. Now they want a database keeping track of ammo?

Be interesting to see how they are going to code each of the 150 odd pellets in a shotgun shell... glad I don't have that job... :)

[wicked_hind]

Hahahahaha.... registering individual firearms has been proven to be expensive and time consuming and ultimately pointless in many countries. Now they want a database keeping track of ammo?

Be interesting to see how they are going to code each of the 150 odd pellets in a shotgun shell... glad I don't have that job... :)

Guess i'll have to switch to black powder rifles and cast my own slugs.rofl

[Shrapp]

looks like the senate bill is over a year old, and has no movement since it was reviewed by the judicial process. RSMo (Missouri Revised Statutes) 407 and 571 ONLY. Not to mention how impractical this process would be. To blanket All democrats as "Anti-Gun" is ignorant. Just as it would be to day all Republicans are "Pro Gun"...this just gets old

[Lefty]

This will never happen, the resources it would take to maintain this program are absurd.

[AroundTheCorner]

I'm going to move to Texas :)

[wicked_hind]

I'm going to move to Texas :)

Funny how you notice that Texas, along with most of the southern states aren't on the band wagon. I wonder why? :roll:

[Kilgor]

looks like the senate bill is over a year old, and has no movement since it was reviewed by the judicial process. RSMo (Missouri Revised Statutes) 407 and 571 ONLY. Not to mention how impractical this process would be. To blanket All democrats as "Anti-Gun" is ignorant. Just as it would be to day all Republicans are "Pro Gun"...this just gets old

Shhh... don't you know hes a muslim too ?

[Bia]

Tagging millions of tiny objects is quite easy. Sorting a way to make a single shell accountable to a specific person isnt easy....but not impossible either.

Another good idea that wont work simply because law abiding citizens need not worry about tracable ammunition... it's the criminal....the killer certainly isnt going to buy tracable ammo before a hit.

[AroundTheCorner]

Funny how you notice that Texas, along with most of the southern states aren't on the band wagon. I wonder why? :roll:

Texas, I think, is the only real American state out there. Most of its laws are still based on the ideas from back in the day, and trust me, that's never going to change. NEVER!

[Geezah]

Tagging millions of tiny objects is quite easy. Sorting a way to make a single shell accountable to a specific person isnt easy....but not impossible either.

Another good idea that wont work simply because law abiding citizens need not worry about tracable ammunition... it's the criminal....the killer certainly isnt going to buy tracable ammo before a hit.


That's the part the anti-gunites choose to ignore or are fully aware that this is the case, after all their main concern is to disarm the law abiding.

[Irons]

In my life experience, one will never find a larger cache of arms, and ammunition than in the home of a Lawyer, Doctor, Soldier, Police Officer, Fireman, or Politician. Those people are pillars of our society, but they are also individual citizens as well. I doubt they are eager to comply with such nonsense. (All of those professions are also overwhelmingly Conservative, and Pro-Second Ammendment [with hypocritical exceptions made for some Politicians]).

Gents, the U.S. has over 80 million firearms owners (and probably a good deal more than that "off the record.") and literally billions upon billions of rounds of ammunition in circulation. This Bill is a pipe dream. How would they pay for it, and who would they get to enforce it?

I do believe it prudent to call, and/or email, your state, local, and federal representative to voice your displeasure with the notion of this bill, but that's just being a responsible American citizen IMHO. I would treat this as a trust-but-verify scenario. Trust that it will never be possible, and verify that your elected officials are aware of that fact.

[Walter Sobchak]

Why do you guys need untracable ammo?

Planning a crime?

Seems only a criminal mind would oppose tracking a round to the shooter.

What happens when someone steals some of your "registered" ammunition? Are you going to be held liable, as well?

I have thousands of self-loads, much of it in brass dating from WWII through the early 60s. It's impossible to register, because much of the brass is from the same manufacturers in the same years and have identical markings. This law is unenforceable, as there are billions and billions (I'm channeling Carl Sagan.....) of military and civilian rounds with identical manufacturer, caliber and dates stamped on the bases.

But yes, I do think that the Left will eventually try and outlaw ammunition or make it prohibitively expensive. However, doing so, they are seriously underestimating the American people, but that is the critical flaw within the make-up of your typical elitist.

Hubris... they are full of it, and The Chosen One™ is the worst of all!

[loganinkosovo]

Why do you guys need untracable ammo?

Planning a crime?

Seems only a criminal mind would oppose tracking a round to the shooter.

Or someone who believes in personal freedom, the country the founding fathers created and the second amendment.

[loganinkosovo]

But yes, I do think that the Left will eventually try and outlaw ammunition or make it prohibitively expensive. However, doing so, they are seriously underestimating the American people, but that is the critical flaw within the make-up of your typical elitist.

Hubris... they are full of it, and The Chosen One™ is the worst of all!


It's been working with tobacco...why not ammo? To the moronic left they are the same thing.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67460&stc=1&d=1234335543

[NoRestForTheWeary]

This is great for criminals because the ammo gets traced to whoever bought it legally.

[perdurabo]

anyone can buy ammo right? so what would stop criminal for paying 50$ to some drug addict in other state to buy him few boxes? say i go to california find addic that looks good enough to not get seller suspicious, we meet behind corner he gives me bulets i pack them to my van and drive to next state and kill somone? (damn we Poles have genetical demage to find ways around any law...)

[Macs.]

What happens when someone steals some of your "registered" ammunition? Are you going to be held liable, as well?


From the LEO POV you atleast have atleast a additional trace. Let's say the ammunition was stolen, maybe there has been DNA found at that place where the criminal has broken in etc etc, it just provides a additional puzzle.

And besides if this law would be practical or not, the people who constantly scream "MAH FREEDOM" maybe should get back to reality. If we take cars for example, every single car in civilized countries has a ID + Number plates that you can trace back to a certain point.

[commanding]

While they are at it why don't they legislate that all privately and corporately held illegal drugs be destroyed by April of 2009? I am sure everyone would comply. Also throw in that all criminals either turn themselves in by April 2009 or slit their own throats?

[Macs.]

While they are at it why don't they legislate that all privately and corporately held illegal drugs be destroyed by April of 2009? I am sure everyone would comply. Also throw in that all criminals either turn themselves in by April 2009 or slit their own throats?

(Most) Drugs and Murder are already illegal so the comparison doesn't really work.

[Walter Sobchak]

From the LEO POV you atleast have atleast a additional trace. Let's say the ammunition was stolen, maybe there has been DNA found at that place where the criminal has broken in etc etc, it just provides a additional puzzle.

And besides if this law would be practical or not, the people who constantly scream "MAH FREEDOM" maybe should get back to reality. If we take cars for example, every single car in civilized countries has a ID + Number plates that you can trace back to a certain point.

Step away from the LEO POV and consider the Trial Lawyer POV. I guarantee that the original owner/buy/holder of the ammunition will get sued. Guran-damn-tee...

As far as tracing cars and tracing ammunition, there are no cars on the road in any "civilized" country without serial numbers and/or plates. However, there are billions of rounds that are untraceable. While criminals cannot build or buy untraceable vehicles, the access to untraceable ammunition is almost unlimited. Also, when I sell a car, I will legally transfer the title, but will "coded" ammunition brass not be reloaded? Will reloading now become an outlawed activity? Will criminals not be smart enough to catch or pick up their brass? Will revolvers now become illegal?

This is like a lot of Lefty-generated ideas. It looks great on paper, and you can say it protects "the chillllllllldren", but in reality it is a logistical nightmare for all involved. It will only further criminalize the legal activities of tens-of-thousands of law abiding Americans and deter almost zero violent crime, since criminals have extra-legal means around these so-called "safeguards".

When you look at the details, it's obvious that this legislation is only intended to make lawful gun ownership more expensive and more difficult and to criminalize the activities of law-abiding citizens. Also, stop and ask yourself why your government is becoming more afraid of its own citizens.

[Macs.]

As far as tracing cars and tracing ammunition, there are no cars on the road in any "civilized" country without serial numbers and/or plates. However, there are billions of rounds that are untraceable. While criminals cannot build or buy untraceable vehicles, the access to untraceable ammunition is almost unlimited. Also, when I sell a car, I will legally transfer the title, but will "coded" ammunition brass not be reloaded? Will reloading now become an outlawed activity? Will criminals not be smart enough to catch or pick up their brass? Will revolvers now become illegal?


My point was that a registered/ID'd car is standard today and no one give a **** about it, but when someone wants to trace ammunition people start to scream about freedom. I bet no one of these people is screaming about their rights and freedom in the case of registered cars, it just seems like another case of a automatic knee-jerk reaction to go back to "MY RIGHT AND FREEDOM" if anyone dares to do something concerning guns/ammunition.

Again, if this is really making sense or if it's even possible (technical) is another question.

[LongShot]

This is great for criminals because the ammo gets traced to whoever bought it legally.



So do stolen guns...thats why there is a thing called an "investigation."
Something with your name on it doesnt mean you did it...at least not in this country.


I support the idea. However, I do not support the fact that ammunition manufacturers will have to pay for it, and in turn pass the cost on to us.

[Geezah]

And besides if this law would be practical or not, the people who constantly scream "MAH FREEDOM" maybe should get back to reality. If we take cars for example, every single car in civilized countries has a ID + Number plates that you can trace back to a certain point.

You've missed the point of the Constitution, which is understandable as you are in Germany.

The Constitution does not guarentee your right to drive, driving is a privilege, bearing arms is a Right and that Right shall not be infringed. This is just another way the Libs can attack the individual Right to bear arms.

[Walter Sobchak]

My point was that a registered/ID'd car is standard today and no one give a **** about it, but when someone wants to trace ammunition people start to scream about freedom. I bet no one of these people is screaming about their rights and freedom in the case of registered cars, it just seems like another case of a automatic knee-jerk reaction to go back to "MY RIGHT AND FREEDOM" if anyone dares to do something concerning guns/ammunition.

Again, if this is really making sense or if it's even possible (technical) is another question.

And this is a classic bait-and-switch straw man argument. Registering cars is not an attempt to stop lawful activity in the interests of a "public safety" argument. The main reason to register a motor vehicle is to collect taxes for their use. Hell, most states don't even do much of a safety inspection, if at all. That one can trace to the owner with that registration is only a side-effect, not the intent.

On the other hand, tagging bullets and/or brass is an easily defeated system, so the intended purpose must be to raise expense, assign legal liability (spelled: L-A-W-S-U-I-T) and increase the hassle factor.

[nimer bortuqaal]

People aren't thinking real clear on this issue. First, the borders are open and the laws and law enforcement have not stopped all of the contraband that flows across them daily. Why would anything change with small arms and ammunition? Ammunition is small (although heavy) and easily concealed in a vehicle or packed over by man or animal. Mexico will have a boom in ammunition manufacturing and importing non numbered ammo from around the world soon if this law were to take effect.

Second, many young adults carry a fake ID to access alcohol. Just bring your fake ID/papers when you buy your ammo or have someone else buy it for you.

Third, a little bit of sandpaper or file will take care of your stupid numbers and now your whole reasoning for this lame law is now lost.

Also, you could just steal your ammo and you won't be burdened by the cost or red tape in purchasing it.

And last, but most important, is the American spirit. Most Americans obey the law because it is the right thing to do. We stand for right even when we are in the minority. When the laws of this country start to oppose these good values or our God given right for self protection and freedom, then do not be surprised when the good people of this country start to ignore the laws of fools. When pushed hard enough, even good people will become outlaws and even savages.

The souls who founded this country understood the importance of freedom and the importance to keep our government in check. Sadly, when all dialogue fails, it is the threat of armed conflict that keeps the little man from being overrun.

The powers that be seem to want to keep putting feel good bandages on our scrapes and cuts while our arm has been amputated. Why not throw the money used to protect us from everything into more education and national pride movements that say something to the effect of "stop being a punk, be responsible for your own actions, get a job, and earn your keep in this society". It is our culture that is the issue and how we raise our young minds, not the amount of bullets that take lives. If the leaders of our government would stop being hypocrites, then they would ban cars and alcohol first before weapons and ammuntion as more people die in DUI and other traffic incidents than shootings and our wars combined each year. That is of course if they remember to pay their own taxes.....

[Geezah]

People aren't thinking real clear on this issue.

Oh yes they are, the only goal here is to disarm the law abiding, or turn the law abiding into criminals over night.

[nimer bortuqaal]

Oh yes they are, the only goal here is to disarm the law abiding, or turn the law abiding into criminals over night.

So very true.

[commanding]

(Most) Drugs and Murder are already illegal so the comparison doesn't really work.

On my post.....Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

[Asheren]

Heh some times i hate to be right. Looks like your anti-gun guys did exactly what i told some time ago. "Fun" part is that strict gun control won't work. You can reduce amount of gun crimes done by registered owners. Yes the anti-gun coalition would call it a victory. Then things will be stable.

I will use Poland as an example because we have strict gun law. Amounts of gun ownership licenses decreasing rapidly due to very low amount of issued permits.
In 1997 we had 635152 units of firearms registered on peoples.On averange 1.1 unit of guns per permit.
Confiscated firearms 3167 units Handguns 413
No data on gun related crime from before 2002
From 2004 to 2005 amount of legaly owned firearms decreased by 10000 units.
Also amount of confiscated firearms decreased to lowest level since 1992.
In 2007 we had 462974 units of firearms registered on peoples.
Confiscated firearms 2662 units Handguns 505
Firearms related crimes all kinds 631
In 2008 we had 457933 units of firearms registered on peoples.
1.46 gun units per permit.
No data on no of confiscated firearms yet
Firearms related crimes all kinds 525
Decrease in firearms related crimes is following similiar patern in other kinds of weapon related crimes.
Soo considering that strict gun control removed around 200000 units of firearms from hands of law abiding citizens and over 50% of legaly owned pistols, submachine guns, assault rifles and automatic rifles.
Amount of stolen firearms remains relativly stable.
Why amount of confiscated illegal guns is nearly equal to what it was before that time.
Guess why because those who wanted guns for illegal purposes got them anyway.

[SpartanWarrior198]

It's all to keep us safe guys.....remember that. The government needs to keep us safe from ourselves because we are incapable of thinking for ourselves or protecting ourselves.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm 100% fully capable of thinking for and defending myself.

[perdurabo]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm 100% fully capable of thinking for and defending myself.
don't tell that to goverment they will thinkyou are lunatic with gun and throw you to jail!p-)

[SpartanWarrior198]

don't tell that to goverment they will thinkyou are lunatic with gun and throw you to jail!p-)
They'll never take me alive! :fork: