Rifle grenades vs. underslung GLs

[SpartanWarrior198]

I'm looking for some opinions from those who have used both pertaining as to the pros and cons of each and which one is considered the better option.

The reason I'm asking is because some article claiming the superiority of rifle grenades constantly comes up when I'm doing image searches for pics of M203s, M320s, etc.. I've read it over, but I'm not really all that confident in the authenticity of it.

http://www.combatreform.com/riflehandgrenades.htm

Anyway, opinions?

[EZFEED]

+1 here for rifle grenades...........

I have both units for various weapons. Rifle grenades for the FAL, SKS, Mauser variants, M1 Garand, Enfield cup launcher with Mills bombs, and a few others.

I also have 37mm underslung Launchers of my own type on an AR and a GP-25 and GP-30 for my AKM's.
Each of those units I imported demilled as parts kits years back and rebuilt to 37mm by sleeving the 40mm barrel.
Used to have a very nice 40mm M-203 (one of Randy Shivak's goodies) back in the day that I sold several years ago. Had all the stuff for that including beehive inserts, smoke rounds, a couple HE rounds and some other goodies.

Hands down the rifle grenades are MUCH more accurate and for the most part have a little better trajectory and range than the cartridge type plus they carry more payload to the target. Used to fill those blue M-31 practice grenades up with BP and put a waterproof fuse in them for clearing brushpile blockages in the bayou. Got to fire one M-31 HEAT round and let me simply say VERY effective and more umph than the 203 rounds.

I think the cartridge type grenades are OK and I would think are a heck of alot more handy in an urban warfare enviroment and much more user freindly for todays compact loads. The GP series for the AKM performs similarly to the 203 but it's shorter barrel seems to require a little hotter load to get the projectile out there. I havent toyed too much on these latley so I cant give you much on the specifics of them. With these self contained cartridge type grenades you can carry more and have it all in one package with the 203 under your rifle. The 203 is NOTHING like the M-79 though. The 79 gets the job done with more umph/velocity and better trajectory plus the ergonomics are so much better than the 203.....only thing is who wants to sling two weapons and have to hump that extra weight (may not weigh that much but I'm sure after a while you'd get to feeling it). If you pay atention to what you are doing are well trained to handle the M-203 then no doubt it will work for you and will get you on if not damn near close to target. Enough to frag the crap out of whatever you are firing at.

If you think you can engage light armor with the 203 then think again. The rifle grenades had this area covered with some efectiveness. Even the plastic bodied nato grenades that I shoot of my STG-58 and SKS's can bust through 10mm armor plate. I dont think there is a load powerful enough for the 40mm that can do that, then again I am not military and do not know what the current selection of available goodies are. I particularly liked the litle batch of M-57? or M-75? (forgot now) of projectiles that I had back when I was fooling with the 40mm stuff. That little guy packed a punch and sent buckshot everywhere when it went off. They were quite effective against the local Nutria whordes that I was atempting to eliminate p-)

[Alfacentori]

If you think you can engage light armor with the 203 then think again.

Do you mean can't? As I thought there was now a range of 40mm rounds now out that are designed to pierce light Armour and buildings etc, someone posted a link to 'Future Weapons' I think that covered it. (And yes I know the show is mostly crap :))

I have no military experience but for those that do with these systems is the different loading and firing methods a factor? As in an underslung M203 can be carried loaded and bought to a sudden target rapidly without affecting the weapons ability to fire, while a rifle grenade (as I understand them) can't?

Alfa

[EZFEED]

If you think you can engage light armor with the 203 then think again.

Do you mean can't? As I thought there was now a range of 40mm rounds now out that are designed to pierce light Armour and buildings etc, someone posted a link to 'Future Weapons' I think that covered it. (And yes I know the show is mostly crap :))

I have no military experience but for those that do with these systems is the different loading and firing methods a factor? As in an underslung M203 can be carried loaded and bought to a sudden target rapidly without affecting the weapons ability to fire, while a rifle grenade (as I understand them) can't?

Alfa[/quote]

There may be, I have never seen one however. I want to say I saw something like that myself on the military channel but didn't watch the whole episode. The HE rounds I had seemed to be more or less concussion grenades at best. Anything fairly thick wouldn't be affected and it would put a decent dent in 3/8" and 1/2" plate steel backstops but that seemed to be about it.
There’s not much pop in those little projectiles then again, the volatility of the filler may diminish over time? This was all Vietnam era leftovers.

I'll tell you this...........they'll bust up a Datsun pickup pretty wellrofl

[EZFEED]

As in an underslung M203 can be carried loaded and bought to a sudden target rapidly without affecting the weapons ability to fire, while a rifle grenade (as I understand them) can't?

Alfa

One thing thats a hassle about rifle grenades is that if it's a mag fed weapon then it almost requires you to keep an extra mag of launching blanks on your person somewhere and that crap gets in the way if your not going to really use it.

First you have to clear your weapon then flip the gas setting over to GR then mount your grenade and if it's a combo flashider/GL then maybe give it a wipe to get any funk of of the body where the retaining spring is cause it wont engage if you dont. Then slap in your blank mag, flip your sights up and go. It goes alot faster than it sounds but the clearing of your weapon and switching your gas plug would put you in a temporary pinch if you were in a tight spot it would seem. A Yugo SKS is a pretty user freindly GL gun because you can tape a blank cartridge to the rocket and thumb it in over the live rounds in your mag, thats how I do it. The bolt would be open when you do that thus the chamber is clear and the gasport is automaticaly shut once you thumb the catch over to flip up the sight. Once you've popped your rocket, eject the case and flip your gasplug over and you're ready to go.

Still you have alot better range, accuracy, and payload with the rifle grenade vs the self contained type. They are like a mini RPGp-)
In war I guess I would prefer whatever was issued and could be readily resupplied to me. For aroud here and clearing brush dams I like the rifle mountedp-)

[Alfacentori]

Thanks for the insight EZFEED :)

Btw heres the one I was thinking of

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEe9ngFiMY

but I think your right its still primarily a HE round.

Alfa

[Marshall_Nord]

someone posted a link to 'Future Weapons' I think that covered it. (And yes I know the show is mostly crap :))

Mostly!? rofl

[SpartanWarrior198]

Thanks for the insight EZFEED :)

Btw heres the one I was thinking of

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEe9ngFiMY

but I think your right its still primarily a HE round.

Alfa
I wasn't aware the Hellhound could be used in a 203. :bash:

[Holycrusader]

Mostly!? rofl


The part with narrator is crap. Photos are sometimes nice:)

[Alfacentori]

I wasn't aware the Hellhound could be used in a 203. :bash:

Well I assumed it could be, seems strange to me to make 40mm Grenades that can't be used in all the relevent systems, the supply chain problems would be annoying for a force that uses both M203's and other 40mm GL's, I would think it would be sensible to standardise them.

If your saying it can't then thats cool, odd, but cool.

Alfa

[SpartanWarrior198]

Well I assumed it could be, seems strange to me to make 40mm Grenades that can't be used in all the relevent systems, the supply chain problems would be annoying for a force that uses both M203's and other 40mm GL's, I would think it would be sensible to standardise them.

If your saying it can't then thats cool, odd, but cool.

Alfa
I'm not 100% sure.

[Steve Andrews]

One thing thats a hassle about rifle grenades is that if it's a mag fed weapon then it almost requires you to keep an extra mag of launching blanks on your person somewhere and that crap gets in the way if your not going to really use it.


No so with the bullet trap variety. The British Army used to use Luchaire HEAT rifle grenades. They were great fun to fire!

[Britboy]

Not all 40mm grenades can be used in all launchers, there are different sorts for either UGL or the GMGs, different pressures I am given to understand.

Was RGGS bullet-catching, as in you could launch it with a live round? Always seemed odd to me to have some RGs that req'd a blank/special round, potential for mistake and no doubt a big BANG if you got it wrong in the heat of things, not to mention having to fiddle with actually loading the round... Not done it myself, but heard of it.

[Hollis]

I think there is a good reason the US dropped rifle grenades. The M79 is a much much better choice. I would prefer the underslung GLs.

IMHO, it is much easier to use a underslung GL than a RG.

[AC434]

I wasn't aware the Hellhound could be used in a 203. :bash:
One of the limitations of the 203 is that it can't load longer rounds. I would expect the M320, being side loading, can handle the longer rounds.

[LineDoggie]

Long Mountain Outfitters has an M203 that opened much wider than current 1970's issue 203's.

http://www.longmountain.com/inventory/lmt-m203-40mm-registered-dd

[gafkiwi]

The frontline load for our grenidiers was 36 odd bombs, Atleast a third of them had to be carried on the grenidier, not too easy to do with rifle grenades. Our army trialled rifle grenades but preferred to stay with the M-79s and the steyr/203s that were comming on line in the mid 90s
A trained grenidier can put down a good sustained rate of fire with the 203. I'm not sure about rifle gernades, but we can also carry a good variety of ammo, HEDP, CS, SMOKE, ILLUM etc. The HEDP rd also has a shaped charge and has reasonable armour penetration for its size.
And our steyr 203s aren't all that heavy, I find them quite well balanced to shoot and carry.

[LineDoggie]

M433(HEDP) Rounds will penetrate 2"(5cm) armor @ 90deg, we used them in Iraq against old BMP's BRDM's, etc.

[EZFEED]

Thanks for the insight EZFEED :)

Btw heres the one I was thinking of

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEe9ngFiMY

but I think your right its still primarily a HE round.

Alfa

Mmmm I dont know about that one bud. Thats a pretty much beefier 40mm round than the little low pressure ones the 203 takes. :|
I also dont think the little slide and sheetmetal latch on the 203 would hold under that kind of pressure........

Look at how much recoil is transmitted to the shooter on that revolving unit. The stubby little 203 rounds dont do that at all. In fact that revolving launcher looks like it would be in the same class as a rifle grenade judging by its trajectory and penetration.

There are allot of different rounds in 40mm, the automatic 40mm ones that are put on some helicopters are way more potent and have more propellant than infantry issued units. The little 203 round has more of an arc and a very-very mild recoil. Rifle grenades use a special high power blank cartridge (nothing like a regular blank) that really shoves the rocket off and into flight.

Its a little more tricky to put the round where you want it with the sight setup and all on the AR/M-16 for a beginner but once you get used to it and become familiar with its trajectory you can place them fairly effectivley even in a decent crosswind.

If we are comparing all GL's then these more modern single function units take the cake over rifle launched/underslung ones.

If we are comparing rifleman issued units then between the 203 and rocket type then I would have to give my own props for the rocket type. I think it still has a valid spot in modern warfare in "some" applications, close quarters combat NOT being one of them and in that case would favor the 203 or other underslung/sideslung units. What I use and favor is irrelevant however because I do not use them in a military application.

[EZFEED]

M433(HEDP) Rounds will penetrate 2"(5cm) armor @ 90deg, we used them in Iraq against old BMP's BRDM's, etc.

Is that a new flavor in the 203 department?:) I've never heard of it but then again I never did much research outside of what I could get back then.:oops:

It must be some sort of shaped charge to be able to slice through that much armor plate. If so is it fireable through a rifle mounted 203 or is it a high velocity/high pressure round?????

[EZFEED]

Long Mountain Outfitters has an M203 that opened much wider than current 1970's issue 203's.

http://www.longmountain.com/inventory/lmt-m203-40mm-registered-dd

I wonder if those have rifled barrels? Pretty nifty little unit.p-)

[LineDoggie]

Is that a new flavor in the 203 department?:) I've never heard of it but then again I never did much research outside of what I could get back then.:oops:

It must be some sort of shaped charge to be able to slice through that much armor plate. If so is it fireable through a rifle mounted 203 or is it a high velocity/high pressure round?????

As far as I Know, M433 has been in the inventory since 1981 when I came in. I believe that there is an Improved Version, but dont know if it carries the same Desig or DODDAC #. It's a Low Pressure M79/203 Munition.

[gafkiwi]

I wonder if those have rifled barrels? Pretty nifty little unit.p-)

Yeah, I just had a look and it looks like the M-203 PIs we have on our steyrs and seems to open a fair way like these. The later types like the grenade launcher produced by H&K solve this by opening to the side.
We have had HEDP since the mid to late 90s and it has a pretty good tgt effect against light armour.

[deagle]

i think underslung GL's can fire a variety of rounds depending on need. all the other rifle grenades i've seen are just launched with little aiming. but i do think the underslung ones offer more versatility,and don't have to be primed prior to launch, as underslung ones have to travel a certian distance before they are armed. if rifle grenades were more effective, they wouldn't have been phased out by underslung ones.

[LineDoggie]

I also seem to recall My Father telling me about how firing a rifle grenade from the shoulder had a viscious wallop in it's recoil. And that was with the M9A1's not even the Postwar M31. After the War they started with the method of firing Butt to the ground so there had to be a trade off with regards to accuracy.

[D.E. Watters]

Is that a new flavor in the 203 department?:)

M433 HEDP was standardized in 1971.

[cliffg]

M433 HEDP was standardized in 1971.

That would be 7 years before you were born, EZFEED, so it ain't exactly new. Google is your friend, mon ami.

PS: Ice cream comes in flavors. Munitions, come in crates.

[0497]

Thread a while back. Recoil seems to be a problem with RGs.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=146068&highlight=famas+grenade

Prefer the UGL; you can lob it and carry more.

[EZFEED]

I also seem to recall My Father telling me about how firing a rifle grenade from the shoulder had a viscious wallop in it's recoil. And that was with the M9A1's not even the Postwar M31. After the War they started with the method of firing Butt to the ground so there had to be a trade off with regards to accuracy.

Yep they do but thats why you dont exactly shoulder it up firm if you can help it. The SKS blanks are like a 12gauge.

[EZFEED]

That would be 7 years before you were born, EZFEED, so it ain't exactly new. Google is your friend, mon ami.

PS: Ice cream comes in flavors. Munitions, come in crates.

I see. Evidentlay it was too new to get as surplus cause all that was available was HE, smoke, the one filled with buckshot, and a few more. All were pulled and you werent guaranteed that they weren't a few duds. No point to research past what you could get:roll:

And I beg to differ too! Deserts are all the same!rofl

[cliffg]

too new to get as surplus cause all that was available was HE, smoke, the one filled with buckshot, and a few more

Fascinating. I did not know the US Government declared some M406 High Explosive 40mm rounds surplus and available to civilians. You learn something new every day.


No point to research past what you could get

Then how do you know if you've really got it?


Deserts are all the same!

That they are. Hot, dusty, and way too much sand. If you meant 'dessert', then I beg to differ. You wouldn't say that if you've ever had dessert at Galatoire's.