Hired Guns (In Iraq)

[scm77]

Found this article online. It's written by the guy in my avatar woot woot. It's quite good.

Hired Guns (http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Esquire/2004/03/01/366991?page=1)

[Bombtrack]

i'm pretty sure that was posted some while ago

[scm77]

:cantbeli: :oops:

[chauncy republicans]

I've never seen it before. BTW Good article, I always knew Kell McCann was a badass.

[nerdman]

My favorite part:


Of course, contractors aren't always high-minded. With no one watching, it's tempting to settle scores. The week before I arrived, Sean Penn came to Iraq on some sort of special assignment for the San Francisco Chronicle . The actor was getting out of a cab in downtown Baghdad when a group of contractors spotted him. The contractors didn't share Penn's politics. Plus, they found the idea of him annoying. So they took his camera and made him stand in the rain for forty-five minutes while they ran an imaginary security check on his equipment. There was nothing Penn could do about it. They had guns. He didn't. Tough luck.

[Argyll]

It's been posted before .......several times,and ends up turning into a flame war......
I work for one of the companies mentioned ;)

[nerdman]

Argyll,

A quick off-topic question for you.

Your location is listed as "Sitting in the diminishing Green Zone." Is the Green Zone shrinking or just morphing into an embassy?

Thanks.

[American Patriot]

Tucker Carlson is the lackluster conservative host on the CNN show Cross-Fire.





I wonder if he had his bowtie on.

[American Patriot]

I think the U.S. embassy should be in centre of al-Fallujah.

[Secret Squirrel]

Tucker Carlson is the lackluster conservative host on the CNN show Cross-Fire.





I wonder if he had his bowtie on.

one of the conservative hosts.

[nerdman]

I wonder if he had his bowtie on.

Hahahahah. I didn't realize Tucker wrote that. I'm picturing him prancing around Iraq holding an AK-47 with the bowtie on. Hilarious. It puts a whole new spin on the article.

[Argyll]

Argyll,

A quick off-topic question for you.

Your location is listed as "Sitting in the diminishing Green Zone." Is the Green Zone shrinking or just morphing into an embassy?

Thanks.

When I arrived back in Iraq,we were told the Greenzone was going to shrink in size,a lot of places within would be outside the zone,however it seems,as rumour has it that the Zone will remain the same size,the US embassy here is perpetrated as going to be the biggest in the world.

The situation here is volatile,the IZ's are shifting tactics from hitting Military,to civilian......such as PSD's and Local Iraqi's working for the CPA,and this trend will increase as 30th June nears....it will get worse before it gets better,with some "spectacular's" in the pipeline,there will be a lot of innocent lives taken before handover.....it's going to be bloody and brutal......I really hope I'm wrong.......but the indications and HUMINT are pointing this way :(

Oh and for the kit freaks amongst you,I've just come back from Breakfast,and sitting at the next table were some SOF guys,possibly from the "Teams",all carrying the M4 CQBR's,totally tricked out with surefire's and ANPEQ 2's.....carrying Sig 226/8.......,they were definately not PSD's as they signed in on the Military sheet.........oh and one had one of the new IBH helmets strapped to his day sack!! ;) ,Not wearing a Uniform as such,other than the same colour T shirts,Cargo's and footwear

[Dennis G]

good read thanks

Stay safe Argyll

[American Patriot]

that is a very big shame. Considering the majority of PMCs were killed by an ambush on their vehicles it would help if the coalition lifted the 7.62 small arms restrictions and if the PMC companies would supply better trucks like an SUV with it's roof cut away and an M2 turret in place. That would have solved a lot of problems. :(

People like Argyll are the heroes of this war.

[Secret Squirrel]

that is a very big shame. Considering the majority of PMCs were killed by an ambush on their vehicles it would help if the coalition lifted the 7.62 small arms restrictions and if the PMC companies would supply better trucks like an SUV with it's roof cut away and an M2 turret in place. That would have solved a lot of problems. :(

do you even try to conjure a decent thought before you post? rofl

[American Patriot]

that is a very big shame. Considering the majority of PMCs were killed by an ambush on their vehicles it would help if the coalition lifted the 7.62 small arms restrictions and if the PMC companies would supply better trucks like an SUV with it's roof cut away and an M2 turret in place. That would have solved a lot of problems. :(

do you even try to conjure a decent thought before you post? rofl

Why don't you eat a bag of hell?

[shorty]

a bag of hell?
Hmmmmmmm......I'll take 2, please.

[MEGR]

I support what you guys are doing Argyll.. If i could (and i tried) I would want to get into the PMC business. Do you see alot of progress there? Do you think Bremer is doing good managing this whole shindig? Is your unit mixed in terms of Americans, English etc? Do you get to interact with the people alot? Do you guys ever get priveliges concerning fire support (from coalition artillery, or bombers, or helo gunships)? Sry for getting off topic.

[Argyll]

Assault weapons are 5.56/7.62.......no problems there,some PMC's have the PKM as a support weapon,what calibre do you move up to?
.50?.
Here's what one of our ex regiment guys said about .50's on vehicles,on the move you cannot hit ****,it's a huge weapon and is more an area denial weapon,start blattering away with one in a built up area and you can cause all sorts of collateral damage...which adds to the initial damage.

Good drills are fine,practicing them daily,will hone the anti ambush skills,stopping and engaging the IZ's is not recommended,using the vehicles to drive out of the ambush is SOP's,only time you debus is when you're vehicle is taken out.
There is a little bit of niggling with some of the big names here in Baghdad,they will not share Int,or talk about incidents to other PSD's,instead of all singing off the same hymn sheet,they'll deal with it themselves,they'll not disclose full details,which may possibly save future lives.............****.....just as I typed this something has just gone off,possibly a VBIED,just towards the BIAP exit Checkpoint......got to go fellas

[front]

"There was nothing Penn could do about it. They had guns. He didn't. Tough luck."

Maybe next time "Penn", the actor, should pay about twenty five times the going rate and buy about five times the people to go into Iraq with him... next time.

Out of his own pocket,... and then... when "Tucker Carlson"s macho men, paid for by the U.S. taxpayer, decide to hold up an actor for fun there might be a firefight. Tough luck. He'll have guns and they won't.

Whoop-de-fcuking-do.

Give us a break. Is this what the PMCs are reduced to now to justify their SOF magazine-type media coverage? Humiliating American actors? Hollywood actors? Madonna's ex-husbands in Iraq are now a threat, and deserving of PMC action?

Give us a break. Please.

cheers

front

[Dennis G]

Argyll I'm interested what kind of Tactical fighting/Utility knives are you and your team carrying?

[Argyll]

Argyll I'm interested what kind of Tactical fighting/Utility knives are you and your team carrying?

None.......when you're down to using knives........you're foked.

Front.........you're sounding like a stuck record.....it's NOT JUST US TAX DOLLARS .........it's many different Nations who're funding the reconstruction.......and this has been pointed out to you before.
Don't like it use your vote........you alone cannot change a thing.

Perhaps you're a little jealous of the guys earning big wages when all you're doing is your boring mundane job,not being apperciated,listening to the office asshole every day?

[Dennis G]

something has just gone off,possibly a VBIED,just towards the BIAP exit Checkpoint......got to go fellas

is every thing ok



Argyll I'm interested what kind of Tactical fighting/Utility knives are you and your team carrying?

None.......when you're down to using knives........you're foked.


no utility knives either, you never know when you might need a good knife ;)

[Argyll]

Well I have the Leatherman,on my belt,and I also have a Gerber,but rarely carry it.

The VBIED went off somewhere in the Mansur area,nothing else to report so far

[front]

>Front.........you're sounding like a stuck record.....it's NOT JUST US TAX DOLLARS .........it's many different Nations who're funding the reconstruction.......and this has been pointed out to you before.

Keep pointing it out. Maybe I'm a little thick. Show me some figures... and how it relates to the US and our little friends... this "coalition" and their money?

>Don't like it use your vote........you alone cannot change a thing.

No... but I can speak against you on this board every now and again to show that it's not the way you think... right? :-)

>Perhaps you're a little jealous of the guys earning big wages when all you're doing is >your boring mundane job,not being apperciated,listening to the office asshole every day?

Nasty... let's keep the personal insults off the board shall we, Moderator?

cheers

front

[Argyll]

There were no personal insults there front!

I said that you were perhaps in a boring mundane job,having to listen to the office asshole every day........that's infering to a 3rd party.

Tell you what though,calling me a mercenary is a personall insult.
I am a Close protection Security operator.

[seruriermarshal]

There were no personal insults there front!

I said that you were perhaps in a boring mundane job,having to listen to the office asshole every day........that's infering to a 3rd party.

Tell you what though,calling me a mercenary is a personall insult.
I am a Close protection Security operator.

I'm glad that Argll you are safe , now Iraq so danger , careful .

Bless you .

[Identity31690]

Argyll, I'm interested to know; have you seen any contractors with sniper weapon systems in Iraq (besides Mk12s)? Or are they not exactly useful? And one last question: how hard is it to bring a weapon in from the U.S.?

Sorry if I've hijacked the thread.

[Sergei]

Just for the sake of argument, the picture Argyll describes can sometimes be different.


Wanted: A Few Good Men for Very Good Salaries


"Our men can repair anything from a radio to a satellite phone, but the pay here in the UK is just 25,000 pounds ($46,000)," said Browne. "I posted the <A TITLE="Click for more information about job" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977 |1||||job|AA1VDw">job</A> to the guys and now it's up to them to go get the jobs."

Tallman says that six companies bid for the coordination contract. According to other CorpWatch sources, three of the bidders were Dyncorp, a Virginia based company that is in charge of training the Iraqi police; Military Professionals Resources Incorporated (MPRI), which was working on training the Iraqi army; and a joint venture between Control Risks Group, Erinys, and Olive Security, three of the largest providers of private security in Iraq.
Industry insiders speculate that Aegis won the contract because of growing anger in Britain that UK-based companies have not been awarded large contracts in the reconstruction of Iraq, despite the leading role that the Tony Blair's government has played in the "coalition of the willing." The only other British bid for the contract, the Control Risks joint venture, was disqualified because one of the partners was under investigation for undisclosed reasons at the time the bids were evaluated.

Because of the politics in the decision, some groups are questioning the contracting process. "It's not evident why they they would run a rent-a-cop contract through an Army transportation division in Virginia except that maybe the staff there are more experienced and can write a professional contract that can withstand a bid protest better than the Heritage foundation interns that run contracting in Baghdad," said John Pike, a spokesman for the military watchdog group Globalsecurity.org. For the first 12 months, all contracts in Iraq were evaluated by a group of six men and women in their 20s who were hired on the basis of job resumes they posted at the right-wing foundation's website.


Questionable Track Record

But not everyone agrees with this assessment of Spicer's work. In Sierra Leone, Spicer's efforts have been heralded by the private military industry as the "work of angels." In 2002, Spicer was approached by Per Christiansen, a Norwegian shipping expert who was director of Hudson Maritime, a 16-year-old company that did emergency response to crises like the Exxon Valdez oil spill. New Jersey-based Hudson had just won a contract from the Department of Homeland Security to review security at ports around the country.

more
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1300



British 'mercenary chief' faces execution in Zimbabwe


~SNIP~
By Basildon Peta in Johannesburg and Andrew Buncombe in Washington
11 March 2004


Zimbabwe was threatening to execute up to 60 suspected mercenaries last night - among them a former SAS officer - and accused Britain, Spain and the US of helping to orchestrate an attempted coup in the oil-rich African country of Equatorial Guinea.

Zimbabwe's Foreign Minister, Stan Mudenge, said the men were on their way to Equatorial Guinea where they were plotting to overthrow the government and seize the head of state. "They are going to face the severest punishment available in our statutes, including capital punishment," he said.

Mr Mudenge claimed his information had been provided by Simon Mann, an Old Etonian and a one-time member of the SAS, who, he said, was waiting for the suspected mercenaries when they were arrested in Harare at the weekend. Mr Mann has a long association with the private military business and was a senior figure in Sandline, the mercenary group headed by a former British Army lieutenant-colonel, Tim Spicer.

Zimbabwe, which has frostty relations with much of the Western world, said the plot had been elaborate. "Apparently, this was not one mission ... after the diversion in Equatorial Guinea, they were going to the DRC ," said Mr Mudenge.

... more ...

link: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=500019

[Sergei]

British mercenary with sordid past wins biggest Iraq security contract

Jun 16 - The US-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) has awarded a $293 million security contract to a British company led by a former commando who has been investigated for arms smuggling and has long been in favor of using private mercenaries to intervene in civil wars on behalf of mining, oil and gas interests. The contract is the largest of its type awarded by the CPA’s Program Management Office (PMO), effectively making Aegis Defense Services, a company run by former British commando Tim Spicer, the world’s largest private army. Aegis will provide armed bodyguards for PMO employees and high-level staff of companies that are running the oil and gas fields, electricity, and water services in Iraq. The "cost-plus" contract also calls on the company to coordinate security operations for the coalition throughout Iraq with thousands of other private contractors.

Spicer has a long history of leading private armies in civil wars, according to CorpWatch. In 1998, a company run by Spicer, was reportedly contracted to sell 30 tons of arms to the forces of the former leader of Sierra Leone, in violation of a UN arms embargo. The year before, Spicer was involved in a civil war in Papua New Guinea during which Sandline was reportedly paid $36 million to battle local citizens who had shut down a profitable copper mine to protest environmental damage it had caused and to assert their case for independence.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=560

[front]

I am a Close protection Security operator.

With all due respect my friend... your are not a "Close protection Security operator" to the Iraqi people. You are a mercenary as far as the Iraqi people are concerned.

Don't go back there. They do NOT want you there.

Have a look:

"92 percent of Iraqis consider the United States an occupying force and more than half believe all Americans behave like those portrayed in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos."

Poll of Iraqis Reveals Anger Toward U.S.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&u=/ap/20040615/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_poll&printer=1

It is on Yahoo News for Gods sake.

Look:

" And 55 percent of Iraqis reported to the pollsters they would feel safer if U.S. troops immediately left, nearly double the 28 percent who felt that way in January."

Leave Iraq to the Iraqis.

Stop trying to drag me into your own reasons for being there. Okay! You get the money! Hooray!

Just not in Iraq please. How many ways does it have to be told to you no matter what way you think it does? This is NOT your war... leave Iraq to the Iraqis.

Go home. Easy.

"The most recent independent polling by Gallup found more than half of Iraqis want U.S. and British troops to leave the country within the next few months. "

Go Home. Leave them alone!

As a moderator I think that you should recuse yourself from moderatorship on all new threads, or posts, about PMCs... and the challenges that they face.... on this Militaryphotos.net board.

It's only right. You are one... and we wish to discuss it on this board without fear of pissing you off... and being banned. Red text excluded.

cheers

front

[OB Kenobi]

There were no personal insults there front!

I said that you were perhaps in a boring mundane job,having to listen to the office asshole every day........that's infering to a 3rd party.

Tell you what though,calling me a mercenary is a personall insult.
I am a Close protection Security operator.

Who do you work for?

[Hydro]

I am a Close protection Security operator.

With all due respect my friend... your are not a "Close protection Security operator" to the Iraqi people. You are a mercenary as far as the Iraqi people are concerned.

Don't go back there. They do NOT want you there.

Have a look:

"92 percent of Iraqis consider the United States an occupying force and more than half believe all Americans behave like those portrayed in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos."

Poll of Iraqis Reveals Anger Toward U.S.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&u=/ap/20040615/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_poll&printer=1

It is on Yahoo News for Gods sake.

Look:

" And 55 percent of Iraqis reported to the pollsters they would feel safer if U.S. troops immediately left, nearly double the 28 percent who felt that way in January."

Leave Iraq to the Iraqis.

Stop trying to drag me into your own reasons for being there. Okay! You get the money! Hooray!

Just not in Iraq please. How many ways does it have to be told to you no matter what way you think it does? This is NOT your war... leave Iraq to the Iraqis.

Go home. Easy.

"The most recent independent polling by Gallup found more than half of Iraqis want U.S. and British troops to leave the country within the next few months. "

Go Home. Leave them alone!

As a moderator I think that you should recuse yourself from moderatorship on all new threads, or posts, about PMCs... and the challenges that they face.... on this Militaryphotos.net board.

It's only right. You are one... and we wish to discuss it on this board without fear of pissing you off... and being banned. Red text excluded.

cheers

front

The voice of the Iraqi people has spoken! Begone from the land of ancients, less front unleash a terrible and lasting vengeance!

"Stop trying to drag me into your own reasons for being there"?

Stop trying to drag Argyll into your reasons for not being there.

[percell_086]

argyll I support everything you guys do!! My bro was thinking of starting in the PMC buisness but he hasn't made up his mind yet.

stay safe!!

Percell

[Argyll]

Front............shut up.
I'm sick and tired of you telling me what to do.........get a life,you do your job,and I'll do mine.

and again I'll ask you,come and see for yourself,cause these figures are not representataive of what I personally have seen,certainly not the reports we get from the rest of the country either.

So all these Iraqi's who work for the CPA,btw do you know how many that is?........I don't,and I see thousands daily are included in this Poll?


They don't want us there?...........oh really,the ones we took out on a task this morning were pretty happy to have us there looking after them.
If they did not want us here tell me why they the Iraqi's are hiring security?Tell me why Iraqi police and ICDC are getting killed daily front,not by Coalition,but by Insurgents?,when there is not a single coalition soldier in sight?

Now previous you said 92% did not want us here,when the poll is about the belief of occupation,hell I'm sure all Iraqi's consider the US as an occupying force,cause oddly enough ,right now that's what it is.

And 55 percent of Iraqis reported to the pollsters they would feel safer if U.S. troops immediately left, nearly double the 28 percent who felt that way in January."

Was this conducted all over Iraq?cause in the north,the Kurds are extremely happy to have the US there

Is this the same views you share in Afghanistan?
I've not seen you cry like a baby over this one,or lets see what about Haiti,or lets see Pakistan,......Indonesia.......all places "security operators" work,hey guess what,you even have them in Athens,and where else,oh my God............the USA itself,all performing the same jobs as they do out here........you have a pimple on your ass about Iraq,why?
You think your tax dollars are just coming here?,look at the places mentioned in this paragraph,they're going there too,to fund US workers overseas.........there is not a single difference in paying an Oil worker overseas,than paying a security contractor..........quit your bleating over this...........cause like it or lump it,guys like me are here to stay,if it's not Iraq it's some other place,maybe one day should you ever get the privalage of working abroad in a hostile environment,when you have a security operator with you each time you go to your work,you'll be thankful of his presence.


As a moderator I think that you should recuse yourself from moderatorship on all new threads, or posts, about PMCs... and the challenges that they face.... on this Militaryphotos.net board.

rofl ........what a clown,most of the moderators on this board are in the same industry..........and they know what they're talking about relating to PMC's..........unlike you.............I'll keep talking about it as this is my job,do I tell you how you should be doing yours?........so how about you stop telling me how to do mine,you know nothing about my job,as I do yours........I'm not interested in what you do,it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME,just like MINE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU......so dry up Front,and get over it

Have you been threatened about being banned..........no ,so why make a stupid comment.......................man you really are jealous,aren't you,I've told you mate........come over and work here with a company,see it all for yourself.............otherwise stop judging things because you have a real complex about this,you're the only one front acting like this,in all the threads about PMC's you're the only one who keeps repeating themself.

Ha ha ha..........you're a real funny guy.......hey man I'd love to keep chatting ,but I got to go and look after some clients.

OB........read the names in the article and figure it out.

Oh and front........tell me,where is your condemnation of Tane,Triggerpuller,James,Uncle Sam's Pissed.......they're just a few others in this line of work.......there are plenty more here in this forum too,you'd be surprised.......so why don't you try telling them,like you are telling me what to do...........and I know the response you'll get from the other mods.......STFU!!

[Simpen]

Argyll,

A quick off-topic question for you.

Your location is listed as "Sitting in the diminishing Green Zone." Is the Green Zone shrinking or just morphing into an embassy?

Thanks.

When I arrived back in Iraq,we were told the Greenzone was going to shrink in size,a lot of places within would be outside the zone,however it seems,as rumour has it that the Zone will remain the same size,the US embassy here is perpetrated as going to be the biggest in the world.

The situation here is volatile,the IZ's are shifting tactics from hitting Military,to civilian......such as PSD's and Local Iraqi's working for the CPA,and this trend will increase as 30th June nears....it will get worse before it gets better,with some "spectacular's" in the pipeline,there will be a lot of innocent lives taken before handover.....it's going to be bloody and brutal......I really hope I'm wrong.......but the indications and HUMINT are pointing this way :(

Oh and for the kit freaks amongst you,I've just come back from Breakfast,and sitting at the next table were some SOF guys,possibly from the "Teams",all carrying the M4 CQBR's,totally tricked out with surefire's and ANPEQ 2's.....carrying Sig 226/8.......,they were definately not PSD's as they signed in on the Military sheet.........oh and one had one of the new IBH helmets strapped to his day sack!! ;) ,Not wearing a Uniform as such,other than the same colour T shirts,Cargo's and footwear

OMFG, I wish I had one of them IBH helmets. Soo sexy! Btw, stay safe mate!

[ibstolidude]

Give us a break. Is this what the PMCs are reduced to now to justify their SOF magazine-type media coverage? Humiliating American actors? Hollywood actors? Madonna's ex-husbands in Iraq are now a threat, and deserving of PMC action

front - find someone from SOF that actually reads SOF for purposes other than that of reading a MAD magazine.

[ibstolidude]

As a moderator I think that you should recuse yourself from moderatorship on all new threads, or posts, about PMCs... and the challenges that they face.... on this Militaryphotos.net board.

It's only right. You are one... and we wish to discuss it on this board without fear of pissing you off... and being banned. Red text excluded.
- no it is only right that you conduct yourself with some modicum of respect - he has attempted to discuss the topic with you several times and you continue to harange, insult and act like a pendantic teenage child stuck on a single concept - you have shown NO desire to discuss this topic - You don't wish to discuss, you wish to make statements:
but I can speak against you on this board every now and again - well now you have said your piece, let it be.

In this thread Sergei, OB Kenobi and others have been critical of the role of PMC's - and yet there is no problem. Their dissenting/alternate opinion may not be agreed upon but it is acceptable; they do not harp on it over and over and over and over, in thread after thread after thread; nor have they made it a point to constantly single out an individual. As a matter of fact both of them brought something to the table, an article, a news piece, hell even an OP/ED is an improvement over nothing; these men (possibly ladies?) I do not agree with on the topic, however I generally respect their opinion due to the manner with which it is made (usually key for me), the fact they brought something to the table to discuss, the fact they they are willing to offer more than the same words over and over, and the fact that generally they and those they are discussing wth are willing to respectfully disagree; it is those traits that have seperated many of the banned on the board from those that have not: 6Gun, Albanian, Serbboy, Mushed etc...

[Tane Angle]

[/b]
If you read no other part of my post, grasp this please: The PMCs in discussion are for defensive, protective purposes. Maybe they would be mercenaries if they were being used offensively, but they are not.

Ok, I'm probably more critical of the war and some of the current US Administrations policies than a lot of folks on here (Argyll tried to ban twice already. tee hee :D ), but some of that stuff just isn't true. While we're not always the most popular kids on the block over here, the Iraqis are smart people and the vast majority do seem to realize that that the security is a necessary, if unfortunate thing.

Let's take, for example, an Iraqi mother has a child-let's call him Ali-with an infection. Maybe she lives in a area where the only reliable source of antibiotics is through a Western doctor. So she goes and sees the good doctor. We need someone like Argyll there to protect the doctor from kidnappings. If it weren't for Argyll and friends, little Ali wouldn't have a doctor to care for him, and might die.

But wait, how did that antibiotic get there? Well we need someone like Argyll to guard the convoys as they roll across the desert. If it weren't for people like Argyll, that antibiotic would be stolen and sold on the black market, the drivers kidnapped, and young Ali would again die because of lack of treatment.

In addition to the security contractors, that doctor himself might be a contract, and the truck drivers, freight handlers at the airports, even the pilots, are all contracted to work for someone. Until we invent teleporters like on Star Trek and can jump right from Point A to Point Z, we will need security personnel guarding the convoy from theft along all 24 letters across the Western Desert.

Was it a mistake that the US military doesn't have enough personnel to guard the convoys itself? Of course. Vietnam should have taught the good politicians and appointees that road convoys are extremely susceptible to attack and need a relatively large amount of personnel to guard them. But we can't fix that today, so contractors-who are doing the exact same job they did in the military-are filling in for now. It'd be nice if we didn't need them, but we do.

Now I don't know about some folks out there, maybe they'd be content to let little Ali die. Personally, I'd say if the US and other nations do one thing in Iraq, it's treating the sick. We can't treat the sick on high hopes and smiles alone. Naivety will only get the doctor killed, the antibiotic stolen, and the child dead. Security can save the child's live. Maybe we should instead be lifting Argyll up on our shoulders and saying, "thank you for saving that boy's life."

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

PS: This is just me personally, but Argyll's colored posts help me out, and I appreciate it Argyll. I'm at the point in life where reading is a bit tougher than it once was (dang tiny letters on screen p-) ), so Argyll's coloring is just because he is kind enough to organize his posts into "someone else's thoughts" and "Argyll's thoughts." Again, have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Tane Angle]

Moderator mode on.

May I ask a question? What good does personally attacking Argyll specifically or PMC contractors in general do? Does it help the Iraqis? Does it help anyone here? Personal attacks only hurt one's own credibility. And personal attacks act as distractions-they take away from any good points one might make and pull all the attention towards the bad ones.

I'm definitely not some "kill 'em all," "nuke Iraq" person. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to suppress anyone's thoughts. So please don't think that I'm making this post because of my connections with PMCs. I'm making this post as a moderator, not as a professional. I'm asking you nicely, keep it civil and back off, please. Thank you very much. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Moderator mode off.

[scm77]

My favorite part:


Of course, contractors aren't always high-minded. With no one watching, it's tempting to settle scores. The week before I arrived, Sean Penn came to Iraq on some sort of special assignment for the San Francisco Chronicle . The actor was getting out of a cab in downtown Baghdad when a group of contractors spotted him. The contractors didn't share Penn's politics. Plus, they found the idea of him annoying. So they took his camera and made him stand in the rain for forty-five minutes while they ran an imaginary security check on his equipment. There was nothing Penn could do about it. They had guns. He didn't. Tough luck.

rofl rofl I love that part.

P.S. I see what Argyl means when he says it always turns into a flame war. :roll:

[Yes Man]

A good read.

Argyll or any others who have been to Iraq, would you say this is an accurate view of how things are?

[Locked N Loaded]

My puter is lagging so i'll keep this short but sweet. My experience with PMC's, which is just from an observation point of view as i've never had to run an actual co-op with them, is that they know their shyt for the most part. I'm NOT going to reply to ANY responces to this post as it has become a flame war and i'm not into that bullshyt! Argyll, keep up the good work, alot of us understand the importance of PMC's and the role they play. Stay safe!

Respectfully,
L n L

[Trigger]

Moderator mode on.

May I ask a question? What good does personally attacking Argyll specifically or PMC contractors in general do? Does it help the Iraqis? Does it help anyone here? Personal attacks only hurt one's own credibility. And personal attacks act as distractions-they take away from any good points one might make and pull all the attention towards the bad ones.
It makes them feel righteous and superior to wag their fingers at those they consider inferior from thousands of miles away. It's not about Argyll or PMCs. It's just self gratification.

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, criticize."

[chauncy republicans]

My favorite part:


Of course, contractors aren't always high-minded. With no one watching, it's tempting to settle scores. The week before I arrived, Sean Penn came to Iraq on some sort of special assignment for the San Francisco Chronicle . The actor was getting out of a cab in downtown Baghdad when a group of contractors spotted him. The contractors didn't share Penn's politics. Plus, they found the idea of him annoying. So they took his camera and made him stand in the rain for forty-five minutes while they ran an imaginary security check on his equipment. There was nothing Penn could do about it. They had guns. He didn't. Tough luck.

rofl rofl I love that part.

P.S. I see what Argyl means when he says it always turns into a flame war. :roll:
Yeah you have to protect the poor Iraqi's from the big badass stone-cold killer Sean Penn. :cantbeli: Dont they have something better to be doing? Like maybe their job, These guys are paid with my tax-dollars and this is what they do when their supposed to be keeping Iraq secure!?
A lot can happen in 45 minutes...

BTW I dont mind PMC's but the ones in this article need to staighten out their priorities.
...very unprofessional, letting politics get in the way of duty.

[Trigger]

I'm sure your uh, complaint will be duly noted chumpchange. NOT!

Why doesn't Sean Penn just do his f**king job? How much do you want to bet that the 'thugs' that detained him have a good deal more education than he does? Who the F**K does he think he is?

[nerdman]

My favorite part:


Of course, contractors aren't always high-minded. With no one watching, it's tempting to settle scores. The week before I arrived, Sean Penn came to Iraq on some sort of special assignment for the San Francisco Chronicle . The actor was getting out of a cab in downtown Baghdad when a group of contractors spotted him. The contractors didn't share Penn's politics. Plus, they found the idea of him annoying. So they took his camera and made him stand in the rain for forty-five minutes while they ran an imaginary security check on his equipment. There was nothing Penn could do about it. They had guns. He didn't. Tough luck.

rofl rofl I love that part.

P.S. I see what Argyl means when he says it always turns into a flame war. :roll:
Yeah you have to protect the poor Iraqi's from the big badass stone-cold killer Sean Penn. :cantbeli: Dont they have something better to be doing? Like maybe their job, These guys are paid with my tax-dollars and this is what they do when their supposed to be keeping Iraq secure!?
A lot can happen in 45 minutes...

BTW I dont mind PMC's but the ones in this article need to staighten out their priorities.
...very unprofessional, letting politics get in the way of duty.

Everyone gets a little down time. How do you know they weren't on a break, blowing off a little steam? Probably better than throwin' down beers at the pub.

[chauncy republicans]

I'm sure your uh, complaint will be duly noted chumpchange. NOT!

Why doesn't Sean Penn just do his f**king job? How much do you want to bet that the 'thugs' that detained him have a good deal more education than he does? Who the F**K does he think he is?
Sean Penn isnt on uncle sam's payroll first of all, and second of all these men have a lot more RESPONSIBILITY than Penn, he's a hollywood actor. Are you trying to say that these PMC's should be held accountable to the same standards as a hollywood actor/actress?

[Tane Angle]

Ok ok, I'm sure that they made certain their fun wouldn't interfere with their jobs. Maybe they were off work or something, who knows, but I'm sure they weren't being derilict. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Trigger]

I'm sure your uh, complaint will be duly noted chumpchange. NOT!

Why doesn't Sean Penn just do his f**king job? How much do you want to bet that the 'thugs' that detained him have a good deal more education than he does? Who the F**K does he think he is?
Sean Penn isnt on uncle sam's payroll first of all, and second of all these men have a lot more RESPONSIBILITY than Penn, he's a hollywood actor. Are you trying to say that these PMC's should be held accountable to the same standards as a hollywood actor/actress?
Yes, he's an actor. Too bad he and you can't keep that in mind.

[nerdman]

Ok ok, I'm sure that they made certain their fun wouldn't interfere with their jobs. Maybe they were off work or something, who knows, but I'm sure they weren't being derilict. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

My (previous) thoughts exactly.

[chauncy republicans]

I'm sure your uh, complaint will be duly noted chumpchange. NOT!

Why doesn't Sean Penn just do his f**king job? How much do you want to bet that the 'thugs' that detained him have a good deal more education than he does? Who the F**K does he think he is?
Sean Penn isnt on uncle sam's payroll first of all, and second of all these men have a lot more RESPONSIBILITY than Penn, he's a hollywood actor. Are you trying to say that these PMC's should be held accountable to the same standards as a hollywood actor/actress?
Yes, he's an actor. Too bad he and you can't keep that in mind.
wtf??

[Trigger]

I'm sure your uh, complaint will be duly noted chumpchange. NOT!

Why doesn't Sean Penn just do his f**king job? How much do you want to bet that the 'thugs' that detained him have a good deal more education than he does? Who the F**K does he think he is?
Sean Penn isnt on uncle sam's payroll first of all, and second of all these men have a lot more RESPONSIBILITY than Penn, he's a hollywood actor. Are you trying to say that these PMC's should be held accountable to the same standards as a hollywood actor/actress?
Yes, he's an actor. Too bad he and you can't keep that in mind.
wtf??
Translation:
You and Penn need to STFU and let these PROFESSIONALS do their jobs. Neither you nor Penn have a clue what goes on in the daily lives of these PROFESSIONALS. :bash:
Next!

[California Joe]

When I was a cop outside of DC we used to stop snotty little asshead kids who's fathers were diplomats. They'd be driving 75 in a 30 MPH zone in a neighborhood. We couldn't write them tickets and they knew it so we'd take their ID's and sit in the car for 45 minutes acting like we were verifying something. Just to ruin their morning. In reality we wanted to drag them from the car and play Rodney King for a bit. Oh well.

[chauncy republicans]

Ok ok, I'm sure that they made certain their fun wouldn't interfere with their jobs. Maybe they were off work or something, who knows, but I'm sure they weren't being derilict. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

My (previous) thoughts exactly.
I would hope they were off work, like I said I dont mind the idea of PMC's(in fact I think it's a good idea), but they make an awfull lot of money from Uncle Sam, and I've always been uptight about what I consider over-spending on the part of the Pentagon. So when I read about a few of them harassing an actor I get a little angry, if they happened to have been off duty though, well I couldnt care less then.
BTW I wont responod to your BS anymore Trigger. :D

[Tane Angle]

Actually most of the PMCs in Iraq are paid through the agencies, NGOs, or subcontractors who they protect. Thus most it is actually from the State Department. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[chauncy republicans]

Actually most of the PMCs in Iraq are paid through the agencies, NGOs, or subcontractors who they protect. Thus most it is actually from the State Department. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
I didnt realize that. I thought the Govornment contracted them. Your full of all sorts of usefull information Tane. ;) Thank You for clarifying that for me.

[Secret Squirrel]

Actually most of the PMCs in Iraq are paid through the agencies, NGOs, or subcontractors who they protect. Thus most it is actually from the State Department. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
I didnt realize that. I thought the Govornment contracted them. Your full of all sorts of usefull information Tane. ;) Thank You for clarifying that for me.

"Security firms such as DynCorp and Kroll, retained on State Department and Pentagon contracts worth billions of dollars, have sent thousands of civilian contractors to do the work that the undermanned U. S. military can't. Here, for the first time, the inside story of the private armies of Operation Iraqi Freedom." top of the article.

[Tane Angle]

Chauncy, you're still right, State is still a part of the US government. And those subcontractors are ultimately paid for by tax dollars, though the NGOs-mostly aid groups-are not. Taxpayers pay for State (and sometimes Defense), who pay for the large contractors, who then pay for subcontractors, who then pay for security personnel.

[chauncy republicans]

Chauncy, you're still right, State is still a part of the US government. And those subcontractors are ultimately paid for by tax dollars, though the NGOs-mostly aid groups-are not. Taxpayers pay for State (and sometimes Defense), who pay for the large contractors, who then pay for subcontractors, who then pay for security personnel.
?? Im sorry, I wasnt being sarcastic. :oops:
I quess I cant blame you. :P me sarcastic? Never p-)