A Russian church for a Saudi mosque?

[Jeremiah]

Good one russians.


A Russian church for a Saudi mosque?

This delightful story just came in thanks to getreligion.org: The Saudis have recently asked permission to build a mosque in Moscow, a city where there are only four mosques and 2 million Muslims. The Russians, however, are saying they want, in return, an Orthodox church in Saudi Arabia.

As we all know, the Saudis have a habit of constructing mosques in dozens of world capitals while forbidding houses of worship for any religion whatsoever outside its Wahabist brand of Islam. They've gotten some bad PR locally for some of the hate language in textbooks at the Saudi Academy in northern Virginia. Not only are hapless Christians terrorized and jailed for daring to hold private prayer services in Saudi Arabia, but God help them should they try to convert someone to their religion. And that's for a fellow People of the Book: One can only guess at what the treatment of Buddhists and Hindus must be like.

Wouldn't it be so ironic if the Russians were the first Christian body to win acceptance of the right to build a church in, say, Riyadh? (Some of the Russians are calling for a church in Mecca, but the chances of any other religion getting a foothold within walking distance of the world center of Islam is less than zero.) Of course we all know the Saudis aren't about ready to let Bibles or other religious literature, let alone a church, anywhere near their homeland, but all the same, it's amusing to see the Russians give the Saudis a taste of their own medicine.

-Julia Duin, religion editor

washingtontimes.com . . .

[Zeev]

Russians are damn right.. these saudis are specialists for building mosques all arround the world and encourage hateful wahabism and all that sh*t, but on their land, no one religion exept Islam have the right to existence.. probably the most intolerant nation on earth..

[LaoSexMachine]

Good for the Russians.

[Hilbert]

Well done Ruskies.

I will be happy when the time comes that my country will stop kissing the Saudi's ass and actually sever our damn ties with the parastic terrorist supporting hypocrits.

[Alpheus]

I wish western gov'ts had that much spine.

[INAT]

Hell yes! Let there be an Orthodox church in Mecca or Medina if they want to
peddle their Imperial Wahhabi Islam in Russia.


I know in Kosovo-Metohija the Saudis have been pay the separatists
A lot of money for mosques being built all over the place. They also pay
for conversion and for Muslim students to go and study in the kingdom.
As churches have been, destroyed mosques take their place. Saudi Arabia
really just pays for the export of radical Islam to target traditional non-Muslim countries. These mosques are not only a place of worship but also serve purposes.

[Antimatty]

its things like this where i love the russians.
i remember reading about how around the time of the iran hostage crisis , some Islamic group tried to do the same thing to the Russians. the Russians found out who the terrorists where, who their families were, and started sending the terrorists fingers of their loved ones. needless to say, the terrorists surrendered. i don't remember where i read this. anyone know what i'm talking about?

[SGMGSG9]

This is one of those rare moments, when I stand in complete agreement with the Russians!


I'm personally tired of the Muslim's screaming for tolerance & understanding but giving none in return.

[INAT]

Not sure if this actually happened but I think I read on Mp.net that Russians used pork in battle against Muslims.They would bury them the wrong way, and bury them with a piece of pork on top of the body.Anyone know?

[Virus]

Thats cause russians arent afraid of being "pc", i like their gofckyourself attitude :D

[philbob]

I wish western gov'ts had that much spine.

so do I but that is why we have russia ;)

[kvk1]

Well played.

[A Random Floridian]

Russians are damn right.. these saudis are specialists for building mosques all arround the world and encourage hateful wahabism and all that sh*t, but on their land, no one religion exept Islam have the right to existence.. probably the most intolerant nation on earth..

Hey zeev, your religion is no better. :)

[DE_Six]

That's awesome. :grin:

[Lokos]

A Random Floridian, in what sense?

L.

[Cornerstone]

Russians are damn right.. these saudis are specialists for building mosques all arround the world and encourage hateful wahabism and all that sh*t, but on their land, no one religion exept Islam have the right to existence.. probably the most intolerant nation on earth..
And they got most of the oil... damn shame

[Hollis]

Hey zeev, your religion is no better. :)


Let see, you have been banned before, last time by this site owner. You haven't learned to not let your elephant ass over ride your hummingbird brain when you post.

[AlexMartin2]

its things like this where i love the russians.
i remember reading about how around the time of the iran hostage crisis , some Islamic group tried to do the same thing to the Russians. the Russians found out who the terrorists where, who their families were, and started sending the terrorists fingers of their loved ones. needless to say, the terrorists surrendered. i don't remember where i read this. anyone know what i'm talking about?

From Wiki:

In October 1985, Alfa was dispatched to Beirut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut), Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon), when four Soviet diplomats had been taken hostage by militant Sunni Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Muslims). By the time Alfa was onsite, one of the hostages had already been killed. The perpetrators and their relatives were identified by supporting KGB operatives, and the latter were taken hostage. Following the standard policy of 'no negotiation', Alfa proceeded to sever some of their hostages' body parts and sent them to the perpetrators with a warning that more would follow if the Russian hostages were not released immediately. The tactic was a success and no other Russian national was taken hostage in the Middle East for the next 20 years,[/URL] until the 2006 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abduction_of_Russian_diplomats_in_Iraq"]abduction of Russian diplomats in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Group#cite_note-1).

[Doublethinker]

Not sure if this actually happened but I think I read on Mp.net that Russians used pork in battle against Muslims.They would bury them the wrong way, and bury them with a piece of pork on top of the body.Anyone know?

That was done by the British in India.

I wonder what makes people pin every such a thing on Russia, until proven otherwise. Were these also Russians who massacred the Tasmanian tribe to the man?

We are big bad and mean, while everyone is so gentle and peace loving. Not.

[TheArmenian]

its things like this where i love the russians.
i remember reading about how around the time of the iran hostage crisis , some Islamic group tried to do the same thing to the Russians. the Russians found out who the terrorists where, who their families were, and started sending the terrorists fingers of their loved ones. needless to say, the terrorists surrendered. i don't remember where i read this. anyone know what i'm talking about?

As AlexMartin pointed out, it was in Beirut Lebanon.

...and it was not fingers, it was another body part.

[Ordie]

I think the Russians are just as pissed about the Saudis being the price setter for the oil markets.

[Lokos]

I think the Russians are just as pissed about the Saudis being the price setter for the oil markets

It's not unlikely.

L.

[Antimatty]

From Wiki:

In October 1985, Alfa was dispatched to Beirut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut), Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon), when four Soviet diplomats had been taken hostage by militant Sunni Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Muslims). By the time Alfa was onsite, one of the hostages had already been killed. The perpetrators and their relatives were identified by supporting KGB operatives, and the latter were taken hostage. Following the standard policy of 'no negotiation', Alfa proceeded to sever some of their hostages' body parts and sent them to the perpetrators with a warning that more would follow if the Russian hostages were not released immediately. The tactic was a success and no other Russian national was taken hostage in the Middle East for the next 20 years, until the 2006 abduction of Russian diplomats in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abduction_of_Russian_diplomats_in_Iraq).

yes! that's the one ! now THAT is how you handle hostage situations .

[xav]

I am curious the Saudis reaction to this?
- Come to reason and build the Church?
- Get pissed off and cancel some trade agreemenst with russia?
- Ignore the Russian answer, stop their plan to build the mosque and act like nothing happened?

[AlexMartin2]

I am curious the Saudis reaction to this?
- Come to reason and build the Church?
- Get pissed off and cancel some trade agreemenst with russia?
- Ignore the Russian answer, stop their plan to build the mosque and act like nothing happened?

Probably the last.

But I want to stress that I never heard about this Saudi proposal before this topic. There nothing in our media. So it could be another "One babushka has said", or just rumor.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Good for Russians. WELL DONE!

[Alfacentori]

As a member of the WestStrong crew I approve 100% of this Russian action, truly great stuff- carry on!

Alfa

[philbob]

As a member of the WestStrong crew I approve 100% of this Russian action, truly great stuff- carry on!

Alfa


Philbob concures

[Zeev]

Hey zeev, your religion is no better. :)

:cantbeli:My dear banned friend, just go to Israel, visit, and see, the Churches, Mosques and Synagogues, and the people that practice their faith in absolute freedom, there are maybe maximum 10% of ultra orthodox jews among the population and Israel is a fully democratic state, maybe sometimes too much to me, but that's better than the contrary, at least it can't be criticized too much about that..

for the rest of the world, there are as many different pov as jews, so your comment is just racist and stupid..

I am nevertheless in a hurry to see the Jews building synagogues and talmudic schools almost everywhere to launch the holy war against "goyim", our time came!!!! :-*$ :)

[tea drinker]

Wow! In Soviet Russia they send body parts to hostage takers!

Good on Russia for their attitude. Feckin Saudi mosques all over europe, funding Muj etc. You wouldn't want one of these mosques near a school, have you seen what Ramadan does to their driving?

[Basillicus]

Difficult thing, I don't know what to think about it. Fighting terrorism with terror and e.g. religious intolerance with religious intolerance is no doubt effective, and it's a language even the most primitive scum understand. On the other hand some could argue that when you lower yourself to the level of your opponents, in some respect you have already lost and become what you fight against. I don't want to see our goverments dismembering and mutilating innocent people, no matter what the situation is.

[Afro-European]

God bless Russia.I wish more countries 'd follow suit.
Here in The Netherlands churches are closing down while Mosques are popping up all over the place.It's even easier to get a permit to build a Mosque than to rebuild its own house.Crazy.

[Rudolph]

:) :) :) :)

[Xaito]

As AlexMartin pointed out, it was in Beirut Lebanon.

...and it was not fingers, it was another body part.

yeah I found this one on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_hostage_crisis

Four Soviet diplomats were kidnapped on September 30, 1985. Arkady Katkov, a consular attaché, was killed by his captors; the other three (Oleg Spirin, Valery Mirikov, and Nikolai Svirsky) were released a month later. [14] KGB operatives in the area had identified several Hamas and Hezbollah operatives in the area. Prior to the release of the Soviet hostages a Hamas leader had been kidnapped by operatives from the Soviet Alpha Group. His mutilated and castrated body was left on the steps of the local headquarters with a note attached reading 'Two of yours a day until we get ours back'

of course as always without sources to back the story up... but I guess it's such a nice legend and everybody tells it different everytime it's told so it never get's old... ;)

[Curtis E. Bear]

That was done by the British in India.

I wonder what makes people pin every such a thing on Russia, until proven otherwise. Were these also Russians who massacred the Tasmanian tribe to the man?

We are big bad and mean, while everyone is so gentle and peace loving. Not.

So the British used pork in battle against Muslims during the India uprising, buried them the wrong way and with a piece of pork? Are you completely and utterly ****ing retarded? Do you have any intelligence, what-so-ever?

[RA88IT]

Give yourself a clap on your back, Russia. I wonder what America would of said or done.

[zxc]

its things like this where i love the russians.
i remember reading about how around the time of the iran hostage crisis , some Islamic group tried to do the same thing to the Russians. the Russians found out who the terrorists where, who their families were, and started sending the terrorists fingers of their loved ones. needless to say, the terrorists surrendered. i don't remember where i read this. anyone know what i'm talking about?

I belive, as many others here already posted, they they cut of the head and b*lls of the kidnappers brother, and then put the b*lls in the mouth, and send it to them.

( Somebody had to explain it a bit more detalied ;) )

[sp2c]

God bless Russia.I wish more countries 'd follow suit.
Here in The Netherlands churches are closing down while Mosques are popping up all over the place.It's even easier to get a permit to build a Mosque than to rebuild its own house.Crazy.

churches closing down and mosques popping up all over the place has nothing to do with eachother though

somehow I doubt the latter statement as well ... but you won't get subsidized that's for sure :(

[Afro-European]

churches closing down and mosques popping up all over the place has nothing to do with eachother though
I know those 2 things have nothing to do with each other but the trend is very very very disturbing.See Rotterdam.

somehow I doubt the latter statement as well ... but you won't get subsidized that's for sure :(
They get the dough mostly from Morocco and other Arabic countries, which is forbidden.Another thing:Ahmed Marcouch(Moroccan-Dutch),one of the "wethouders" in Amsterdam wants the gov. to introduce Islamic lesson in public schools.Do you see how they are trying to expand their ***? More mosques,islamic lesson to ge given in public schools,islamic holydays,etc.

[Billy No Mates]

Russia strong,and funny a winning combination .

[nullterm]

Russia, I'd like to shake your hand and buy you a beer.

[C.Fodder]

Russia strong,and funny, a winning combination .


100% p-)

KGB...FTW !!

[Mousepad]

Basicly, we have to understand, that Quaran written in poetry and in old Arabic, and it's a huge job to translate and adapt it, let's say into Russian language, and only guys with time and money to do that, are Saudis. Time ago i saw a video blog "Guide to Islam" of a russian dude - Goblin, and it interested me, so i dug out a Wahhabi version of Quaran that my buddy presented me, it was from confiscated stash with other pamphlets from Chechnya. So i took it to a muslim cleric who i know well, he works in marketplace mosque where i pick up my cargo usually, so he confirmed my fears that wahhabi version is filled with hate, and hilighted a few. For example he confirmed that in original Quaran, people of other religions are "people of the book" and no agressive actions is called agains them, but in wahhabi they are clearly stated as "Infidels" and must be opposed by any devoted muslim and so on and on. He have to translate himself passages from Quaran for his flock. And Russia have no illusions, especially after 2-nd chechen war, what this sh/t all about.

[Hutz]

Good job Russia. We may be seeing more of this once other nations can start leaning themselves off of their oil.

[Rudolph]

Good job Russia. We may be seeing more of this once other nations can start leaning themselves off of their oil.

And unto Russia's? p-)

[Hutz]

And unto Russia's? p-)

We've got our own stock up here. You other guys can figure out your own solutions.

[DS73]

Difficult thing, I don't know what to think about it. Fighting terrorism with terror and e.g. religious intolerance with religious intolerance is no doubt effective, and it's a language even the most primitive scum understand. On the other hand some could argue that when you lower yourself to the level of your opponents, in some respect you have already lost and become what you fight against. I don't want to see our goverments dismembering and mutilating innocent people, no matter what the situation is.

To communicate you need to find a common language. Sometimes using long knifes is the only option. Anyway it isn't necessary the russians did that, the syrians had much better control on the ground.

Before writing "Innocent people", please educate yourself what crowds do out there. As well about how the business of any kind is done. There are no individuals and no individual actions in western sense.

[sp2c]

I know those 2 things have nothing to do with each other but the trend is very very very disturbing.See Rotterdam.

They get the dough mostly from Morocco and other Arabic countries, which is forbidden.Another thing:Ahmed Marcouch(Moroccan-Dutch),one of the "wethouders" in Amsterdam wants the gov. to introduce Islamic lesson in public schools.Do you see how they are trying to expand their ***? More mosques,islamic lesson to ge given in public schools,islamic holydays,etc.

I just can't care about it to be honest

I tried but it doesn't work
if you want more churches then you have to go to church more often, bring all your friends and donate more money at the end of the service

don't want those islamic classes?
don't volunteer to take them

islamic holidays?
keep your old wholesome christian ones

great thing about living in this country is that everybody has the right to expand their ****ing **** just like you have every right to protest it

I just don't give 2 cents about the church vs mosque ratio and I honestly don't see how anyone can get disgusted over it

[sp2c]

and I don't care much for the Russian statement here either

you'd think this is about Russian citizens being able to go to their place of worship and practice their religion and not some childish tit for tat thing vs the Saoudi's, they don't pay taxes in Russia, why in the hell does moscow care about what's going on over there?

either say no more mosques or tax the Saoudi money but what's being done here is just retarded

[Basillicus]

Before writing "Innocent people", please educate yourself what crowds do out there. As well about how the business of any kind is done. There are no individuals and no individual actions in western sense.

That's an interesting way to dehumanize "enemy" civilians. There aren't individuals ... maybe they aren't even "people" in the western sense but some kind of subhumans ... so I can throw my virtues in the trash bin and start chopping the relatives of the terrorists without feeling guilt in order to achieve my noble goal. This is probably what the KZ camp guards and Einsatzgruppen members were thinking about Jews. :-(

[hsh2]

Russians are damn right.. these saudis are specialists for building mosques all arround the world and encourage hateful wahabism and all that sh*t, but on their land, no one religion exept Islam have the right to existence.. probably the most intolerant nation on earth..

No kidding.

If anyone is ever in Geneva, try driving past the King Fahd Islamic Center. Some very weird characters hang around there. Finsbury Park anyone?

:|

[LEB101]

good for russia

[Horse Thief]

Is there 2 million orthodox people in Saudi Arabia? -_-

[tea drinker]

Is there 2 million orthodox people in Saudi Arabia? -_-
Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, the point is Christians are 2nd class citizens there, and we should treat Saudi's in reciprocal fashion. They will never improve their attitude as long as we take their abuse.
Are you attempting to insinuate we should be happy to be second class citizens?

As a gesture of good faith the Saudi's should build a few huge cathedral to make us all feel welcome, sure don't we give them plenty of money?
Maybe then we might consider going, but I want to bring my pork loving dog and get dole money too. We hope to move ASAP as I hear Christmas is big over there.

[gazell]

Sorry to lower the cheer status, but I'm unsure this actually happenned as described in the article. I don't know of any official, gov reaction or place being granted or refused, etc.

All this was said by orthodox church to the islamic counterpart, AFAIK.

[Horse Thief]

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, the point is Christians are 2nd class citizens there, and we should treat Saudi's in reciprocal fashion. They will never improve their attitude as long as we take their abuse.
Are you attempting to insinuate we should be happy to be second class citizens?

As a gesture of good faith the Saudi's should build a few huge cathedral to make us all feel welcome, sure don't we give them plenty of money?
Maybe then we might consider going, but I want to bring my pork loving dog and get dole money too. We hope to move ASAP as I hear Christmas is big over there.

I know, I agree, I just had to say it.

[Mousepad]

Sorry to lower the cheer status, but I'm unsure this actually happenned as described in the article. I don't know of any official, gov reaction or place being granted or refused, etc.

All this was said by orthodox church to the islamic counterpart, AFAIK.

Actually yes, there is no info. Big mosque in Moscow was built in 2007 but it was built only on donation money from Russia muslims, and it was stressed by Russian head muftiy, that all money from Arab states were firmly rejected. The mosque they had before was 100 years old and quite small, kinda no more than 500 people.

[California Joe]

I'd say the Russians asked for a reciprocal agreement. One of the cases where having an aggressive "Russia First" attitude works. Not a damned thing wrong with that. It is an attitude that works in some cases and not in others. Those of you out there lamenting the fact that the US or other western countries don't share the same "f*ck you" attitude, probably don't know much about international relations. It's nice to say on an internet forum, hard to put into practice in every case.

[3rdMillhouse]

Man, you gotta love the russians.


I'd say the Russians asked for a reciprocal agreement. One of the cases where having an aggressive "Russia First" attitude works. Not a damned thing wrong with that. It is an attitude that works in some cases and not in others. Those of you out there lamenting the fact that the US or other western countries don't share the same "f*ck you" attitude, probably don't know much about international relations. It's nice to say on an internet forum, hard to put into practice in every case.

Exactly my thoughts.

[DS73]

That's an interesting way to dehumanize "enemy" civilians. There aren't individuals ... maybe they aren't even "people" in the western sense but some kind of subhumans ... so I can throw my virtues in the trash bin and start chopping the relatives of the terrorists without feeling guilt in order to achieve my noble goal. This is probably what the KZ camp guards and Einsatzgruppen members were thinking about Jews. :-(

Could you mind to expand your post, where exactly did you see "subhumans" in my post?
As well I do demand explanation on your comparison with KZ camp and Einsatzgruppen. If you fail to collect good explanation I will demand your suspension.
I am pretty much tired of this "you're fascist" lameness. Do explain exactly why you see "subhumans" in my post, or STFU.

These "relatives of terrorists" (head of local terrorist group in this specific case) are all accomplices, as they all participate actively or supporting (collecting information etc.) in terrorist activities.
You can ask for details our israeli mp.net members, they will flood you with examples.
Since local authorities are powerless your government has only two choices: 1) sit at home and have no international presence, and to leave any adventurous individuals on their own (your country is very good example) , 2) protect your diplomats "whatever takes". Russia, just because of its size, has no possibility to sleep at home.

Anyway I find hilarious the idea of using your moral and laws in a foreign country. Especially in a country where people obviously have not embraced your values or, even better, do hate your way of life to guts.

I curious to hear: why do you think there are no terrorist actions in Finland?
Because finish government acts smart appeasing all kind of groups, or because finish police do their job well (probably it is not too difficult in finish demographic conditions), and soldiers are doing their job in A'stan? it is actually a rethoric question, before answering you can meditate on spanish case.

[VEVAK]

Good Job Russians, someone needs to shut these Saudi Wahabis once and for all.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Dang we should be the ones building mosque's over there not the Saudis:bash::bash:. And not that stupid fetuyallah Gulen either. CHP should make it:):). Then they could use it in the next elections, "We built Mosques in Moscow for fellow Turks, what did AKP do?" And they can pass the word of ture Islam, and Ataturkisim.

[Basillicus]

Could you mind to expand your post, where exactly did you see "subhumans" in my post?
As well I do demand explanation on your comparison with KZ camp and Einsatzgruppen. If you fail to collect good explanation I will demand your suspension.
I am pretty much tired of this "you're fascist" lameness. Do explain exactly why you see "subhumans" in my post, or STFU.

These "relatives of terrorists" (head of local terrorist group in this specific case) are all accomplices, as they all participate actively or supporting (collecting information etc.) in terrorist activities.
You can ask for details our israeli mp.net members, they will flood you with examples.
Since local authorities are powerless your government has only two choices: 1) sit at home and have no international presence, and to leave any adventurous individuals on their own (your country is very good example) , 2) protect your diplomats "whatever takes". Russia, just because of its size, has no possibility to sleep at home.

You are doing exactly the same thing. You are grouping huge amount of people together and labeling them as "accomplices", and thereby justifying yourself any barbaric acts of violence against them. The relatives may be involved at some level or not, and this varies case by case. But you should not directly attack those who are not directly involved. What comes to Israel they are maybe among the last from who to seek advice how to stop terrorism since at the moment it seems there won't be end to violence in Israel in the forseeable future.


Anyway I find hilarious the idea of using your moral and laws in a foreign country. Especially in a country where people obviously have not embraced your values or, even better, do hate your way of life to guts.

What is the value of morals if you can just throw them away when you feel like it?


I curious to hear: why do you think there are no terrorist actions in Finland?
Because finish government acts smart appeasing all kind of groups, or because finish police do their job well (probably it is not too difficult in finish demographic conditions), and soldiers are doing their job in A'stan? it is actually a rethoric question, before answering you can meditate on spanish case.

Probably this is just not a very interesting country for muslim terrorists.

But if we look in the past, appeasing has worked nicely for us. For example there was a bloody civil war in 1918 between rightists and leftists. It could have left the country divided and violent place, but the winning side chose the appeacement and the leftists got many of the social reforms they were pursuing in the first place. Therefore the radical part of the loosing side (=commies) didn't have much support anymore and had to flee to Soviet Union. Twenty years later the country was unified as one and successfully fought the Soviet onslaught. If the winning side would have chosen the hard headed way the country would have been ruined.

[Kippari]

Hahaha, well played dear neighborinos.

[BAF]

hell yeah , i'm starting to like the ruskies:p