‘Honour killing’: Italian court upholds sentence for Pakistani father

[Sana Saudagar]

‘Honour killing’: Italian court upholds sentence for Pakistani father

Saturday, December 06, 2008

ROME: An Italian court of appeal upheld a 30-year prison sentence on Friday for a Pakistani father who murdered his daughter in a so-called honour killing in 2006.

The young woman’s two brothers-in-law, who were also jailed for 30 years for their part in her death, had their sentences reduced to 17 years, Sky TG24 news channel reported.

The stabbed body of 21-year-old Hina Saleem was found buried in the garden of the family home in Sarezzo, near the northern city of Brescia, on August 11, 2006.

Hina, who reportedly refused an arranged marriage with a cousin, had been estranged from her family and lived with her Italian boyfriend, 33-year-old Giuseppe Tempini.

During the 2007 trial the prosecutor called her murder “a punishment inflicted by her father because she had disrespected the rules of her family’s ethnicity and culture”.

The case has raised questions in Italy about how immigrants integrate into society. Hina’s parents had rejected her relationship with the then married Tempini, who had also been divorced. Her father and two brothers-in-law were sentenced in November 2007.

One of her uncles, convicted of helping to conceal the body, was also jailed for two years and eight months.


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\12\06\story_6-12-2008_pg7_44 (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C12%5C06%5Cstory_6-12-2008_pg7_44)

[CMNot]

We have had similar honour killing cases in the UK. Absolutely no leaniency should given on any grounds, religious or whatever. The moment you walk into another country, for life, for holiday or anything else, you are playing by their rules. This behaviour may be passable in Jurassic Park, but absolutely not in Europe.

[Jaeger07]

We have had similar honour killing cases in the UK. Absolutely no leaniency should given on any grounds, religious or whatever. The moment you walk into another country, for life, for holiday or anything else, you are playing by their rules. This behaviour may be passable in Jurassic Park, but absolutely not in Europe.

ABsolutely agree. Up here in the north we have had some of this **** too.

[muck]

Good to see the Italian judges have balls in cases like this. Many of their European counterparts do not.

[rgjbloke]

"Honour Killings" are a despicable thing anywhere in the world regardless of culture etc!

[Invisigoth]

Gosh, I wish they would coin a new term for these despicable acts.

[martinexsquaddie]

its not even Islamic
its back of beyond villagers who are frankly only good for predator target practice.
who believe they should marry in the family so keeping the wealth in said family not like its easy to share a donkey or anything.
anyway somebody using the villages one brain cell gets out and then rather than embracing a country that has food and the rule of law and toilet paper etc.
Thinks the old way need to be enforced as if they made life in donkey raping county Pakistan a bundle of fun. Strangely there children don't tend to agree as a man who can't read or write is such a catch for a western educated woman.

[gazell]

Good to see the Italian judges have balls in cases like this. Many of their European counterparts do not.

Well, I don't know how much word we have in these cases anymore in the UK, as I do not fully understand yet the extent of this, don't you have these in other countries?

http://www.matribunal.com/

All I get that arranged marriage is perfick, forced one isn't. Anybody can explain the meaningful difference, I'm willing to pay.

[CMNot]

All I get that arranged marriage is perfick, forced one isn't. Anybody can explain the meaningful difference, I'm willing to pay.

I don't understand your question.

[martinexsquaddie]

ran to into a woman who had an arranged marriage perfectly happy with it .
parents fixed the whole thing up.
They met several times decided it was ok got married 10 years and 3 kids later still perfectly happy.
forced marriage sprung on woman no choice in the matter

[Connaught Ranger]

ran to into a woman who had an arranged marriage perfectly happy with it .
parents fixed the whole thing up.
They met several times decided it was ok got married 10 years and 3 kids later still perfectly happy.
forced marriage sprung on woman no choice in the matter

I think the percentage of "fairy tale happy endings" in regards these arranged meat sales for money is on the very low side.

10 years is enough time for her to be resigned to her fate:-(

Connaught Ranger

[budgie]

Good to see the Italian judges have balls in cases like this. Many of their European counterparts do not.

You mean they're letting people off for honor klillings?

[stef063]

ran to into a woman who had an arranged marriage perfectly happy with it .
parents fixed the whole thing up.
They met several times decided it was ok got married 10 years and 3 kids later still perfectly happy.
forced marriage sprung on woman no choice in the matter

Met a Morocco guy just after his divorce and he was shaking his head : "arranged marriage doesn't work"

[Supe]

Good to see the Italian judges have balls in cases like this. Many of their European counterparts do not.

I haven't seen evidence for this. Yes, Western nations (exclude US) are soft on plenty of issues but I haven't seen any widespread taps on wrist convictions for these sorts of crimes. There is an understanding that 'honour' killings are particularly nasty as it involves participation and sanction from the victims family, particularly siblings and parents.

I for one am glad for such stiff sentencing for these types of crimes. In countries where honour killing is almost accepted cultural practice - sentencing is almost non-existent or very light.

*an oxymoron. There is no honour in killing your child/sibling.

[Connaught Ranger]

Anybody convicted of these killings in the UK faces jail time, though that can be argued that the punishment for murder is a slap on the wrist, one time doing a life sentence meant that not a mandatory 25 with lots of time off for good behavior.:roll:

[gazell]

Yes, but then there is more to it than just sentence. Officials from all areas in the thick of it - police, specialised lawyers, etc - all so estimate that there are hundreds of such crimes committed, in the UK 12 cases have seen the court in the last 10 years or so.

Could hardly be called tough on crime...

[Connaught Ranger]

Yes, but then there is more to it than just sentence. Officials from all areas in the thick of it - police, specialised lawyers, etc - all so estimate that there are hundreds of such crimes committed, in the UK 12 cases have seen the court in the last 10 years or so.

Could hardly be called tough on crime...


So, you are claiming there are hundreds of murders that go unchallenged in the UK attributed in connection with so "Honour Killings":roll:.

Please post your sources.

[gazell]

So, you are claiming there are hundreds of murders that go unchallenged in the UK attributed in connection with so "Honour Killings":roll:.

Please post your sources.

As you highlighted, crimes, not killings and yes, you are right, estimates, which can be wrong.

If I 'd remember when and where I took that info from...

But a quick search brings this up, note this very article talks about killings only but there are a lot of links with extra info.

'In 2003 the Metropolitan Police set up a strategic task force to tackle the issue. A specialist unit was given the task of researching honour crimes and 100 murder files spanning the last decade were re-opened in an effort to find common links.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonour_2.shtml

[budgie]

So, you are claiming there are hundreds of murders that go unchallenged in the UK attributed in connection with so "Honour Killings":roll:.

Please post your sources.

Probably got it from Calanen's weekly 'newsletter'.

[gazell]

How very witty of you.

FYI, I haven't been around on these forums long before Calanen got banned, I understand, he was obsessed with islam, but also he was a wealth of info on it, so could be argued, I 'd be at least reading somwat....

Whereas you seem to be: 'I have nothing to say on the topic , so attack the person', you might as well stop trolling threads.

I'm personally an immigrant, minority scum myself, so I have been reading a bit on the topic, my interest in immigrant, minority issues is nothing to do with islam or any relegion for that matter. If these overlap, that's something you have to put your head round to.

As for the thread:

- killing is a crime, but not all crime is killing

- this is not a religious issue, it happens all accross the board, if not in minority population it's called 'domestic violence', very similar, there are some differences though, hence a separate name, regardless the name is good or not

- Islamic Tribunal has questions on my mind, very valid ones, I believe, regardless if it's OK with you or not, time will tell if it works out OK

- estimate is not an exact figure, which does not convey anything about is correctness just as with any exact figure, I for the moment do not entartain the thought that the police or barristers have any interest in making them up or have any need ( though I'm open to argument if you have any), especially in the way of exeggarating the magnitude of numbers;
they do not have any need either as they have an 'x' number of files on their shelves and in their cabinets marked 'suspicious' and undetermined, unsolved, on the bases of which they make an estimate

- google is not God, so isn't Wikip: first lacks a lot of good studies and books on it, or only has parts of; second have been challenged and disputed often and proved wrong not the once, some members can have knowledge not taken from Wiki and be much more accurate

- crime investigation in general can only deliver a lot less than socially is expected or thought of it - pay attention, book: J Fisher; Rorensics Under Fire, don't know if it's on the web -, US needs 2.5 times the well-qualified forensic scientist that all suspicious deaths would get at least an autopsy, result: we have no clue how many people are murdered a year;

this particular type of crime the topic is about has got its own added difficulties for the police which you can find out about in the posted link if you are interested

[Mynameischarlie]

Some members here oversee a signficant factor:
The problem with forced marriages is not only a problem for many female immigrants, but also for many male immigrants.
Females are mostly put under physical pressure/violence to force them to agree to such marriages. If they do not agree, then: the worst case is the "honour killing".
The males suffer under much more subtle/psychological pressure, e.g.: Your grand/mother/aunt says: "If you do not marry her, I will commit suicide!"
So what?
So those guys will marry, but their frustation will often lead in violence against their brides, who often do not wanted to marry too.
The media gives much more attention to the women, but a forced marriage always affects 2 persons. It's quite surprising that it's often the grand/mother/aunt, who forced the marriages/ commanded the "honour killing". The male relatives aka fathers & brothers & cousins are often only the executioners - nothing more - even that the immigrant family comes from patriachlic societies, it's the elder women, who got the pants on. But I never heard a report that the grand/mother/aunt got arrested by the police - even that the law enforcement agencies know it.
The media even sees those males as weaklings, who got no balls but that's extremely unfair.

[budgie]

how very witty of you.

Fyi, i haven't been around on these forums long before calanen got banned, i understand, he was obsessed with islam, but also he was a wealth of info on it, so could be argued, i 'd be at least reading somwat....

http://thecriticalbadger.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/orly_owl.jpg

[gazell]

Are you fixated on hatred towards a banned member of a virtual forum so much, then start a thread on it... or extanding this hatred towards me and suggesting I'm lying?

Which bit or just in general? :roll:

Yeah, I'm a liar, so is the Metropolitan police, the BBC, the British Jurisdiction, the Womans Rights movements, all of us are racist liars. It is a huge conspiracy about honour crime that does not actually exist, just made up by these people to further burden minorities, who are already hardly hit in these Western societies. Is that it? Or what is the truth? Please, do tell!

You still fail to contribute anything to this thread.

Well, I'm fed up to the teeth with these happy, easy going guys of trendy, 21st century multicultural and very very up-to-date and ever so tolerant nature of little or no knowledge of anything just reciting some pc talks and shouting racist at anybody indiscriminately. And I do uphold the view that these very guys are a serious factor in when we fail our minorities and our society, guilty as charged. A bit like skinheads really, intimidation, that people wonder if they can say minority any more without being called racist.

Thankfully, all these before mentioned R-word liars dared to raise their voices a few years ago and awareness was increased and some help and improvement will be on the way, unless such guys ruin it.

'During the nine-month study, 35 cases of forced marriage or so-called ‘honour’ crimes were identified nationally.

They involved 33 victims and 47 offences ranging from murder, kidnap and false imprisonment through to common assault and public order offences.'

I don't know why they say nationally, it's a localised study.

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&file=article&sid=3259

and elsewhere:

http://beta.kimcm.dk/index.php/2007/12/06/denmark-10-honor-related-crimes-a-month/

[budgie]

OK I'll contribute to the thread. Some of the alarmist statements I've seen in this thread are completely unfounded. They suggest some leftist/multiculturalist/pro-Shariah alliance is trying to either legalise honour crimes or at least turn a blind eye. This is not the case. Such a "PC" conspiracy is another imaginary bugbear. No western democracy is going to accept violent solutions to family disputes in its legal code.

Statements that also point to Calenen as a "wealth of knowledge" when all he was doing was race-baiting and deliberately offending our Muslim members are also unfounded.

Now as Connaught requested, if anyone here is suggesting that honor killings and such go uncontested in the UK or elsewhere in the EU because of 'cultural differences', please provide sources.

[gazell]

Thank you for answering in merit at last, I appreciate it.

As I said, I'm not your person to discuss Calanen in detail, I've read a very few posts of his, so my impression on those might well be rubbish, you might well know him much better.

Otherwise, I don't like though you sort of putting things into my mouth, I never said.

'Suggest' is what you are reading into it. And I'm sorry, if it offends anyone or you, I think these were legit questions, I'm allowed to ask. Now you are confusing me somewhat though if I am. It is not every day that another law system set up in a country, it's a big thing. None of my questions said it was to legalise 'honour crime', wherever you take that from.


I never used a phrase 'PC' conspiracy either. I do think, that R-word and the like are serious allegations yet they are thrown around as a filler word without much thought and I think, a lot of people avoid certain topics for the reason as it's dead easy to get into trouble. Which leads to taboo topics and lack of dialogue, not any group of society can benefit from that.


Well, on the last one, you are shooting yourself in the foot a bit. Again, I never said these crimes are not addressed for reason of 'cultural differences', but as you mention it, hmmm.... So now you are leaning onto CR's post to make sense of yourself, whereas you did not accept opinion from these authorities before, you are now seem to be praising them.

Whole and all, I think, I'm also going to opt out of dialogue on that note.

[budgie]

That last post contained no fewer than twelve uses of the word "you". Always a sure sign it is time to opt out.

[Connaught Ranger]

Multiple use if "you" = failrofl

Failure to back up your claims with any credible evidence

means you have shot yourself in both feet and your ass!!woot

[gazell]

Multiple use if "you" = failrofl

Failure to back up your claims with any credible evidence



It wasn't me, who started to be personal on this thread and nothing else.

Also, it does seem rather silly that any links I've provided are not read or accepted.

While I understand that activists and public organisations can have an interest in bloating their figures for an agenda it also happens that people approach them instead of the police.

I did not realise that the Metropolitan police and the BBC were alarmist liars with an agenda but just saw the epic thread on how rubbish they were...

Shall refrain from referring to their data and reports in the future but would be just fair if people with such claims could prove that these reports are in fact lies:

'Steve Allen, a Metropolitan Police commander and Acpo's lead on honour-based violence said: "To the best of our knowledge, 12 people are murdered every year for transgressing someone else's perverted notions of honour.
"We do not know how many commit suicide as an alternative or an escape.
"We know that around 500 men and women report to us every year their fear of being forced into marriage, or their experience of rape, assault, false imprisonment and much more, as the consequence of being in marriage without their consent. '
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7683217.stm
The new policy:
'
The strategy document, which contains 19 recommendations, says that under no circumstances should honour-crime victims be turned away and told that honour-based violence is not the police's problem.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif


Incidents must be properly recorded and investigated, says the document.'


And here they are having another hype of a bash at some other people:


'Two women are killed every week in England and Wales by a current or former partner'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6291708.stm