Greece Braces For More Violence

[Herman the II]

WEEKEND RIOTS
Already more than 100 mil. € of damage... :|



Greece Braces For More Violence

Two days of rioting has left Athens resembling a war zone with burned-out cars and wrecked shops after clashes between protestors and police sparked by the killing of a teenager. The violence, driven by anger over economic policies, engulfed other Greek cities too and the country is bracing for more riots.

Greece was bracing for more rioting in its capital Athens and other cities on Monday after two nights of violent clashes between thousands of demonstrators and police following the fatal shooting of a 15-year-old boy by a police officer on Saturday night.

The shooting of the teenager shortly after 9 p.m. on Saturday night acted like a spark for simmering anger over the conservative government's economic policies. What followed was the worst rioting Greece has seen in a quarter of a century.


full story:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,594980,00.html





Demonstrators Occupy Greek Consulate in Berlin

A group of 30 demonstrators has occupied the Greek consulate in Berlin in protest against the killing by police of a teenager in Athens on Saturday night that sparked violent protests in the Greek capital. The Berlin protesters are behaving peacefully.


full story:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,595033,00.html



PICTURE GALLERY (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-37818.html#backToArticle=594980)

[n7sen]

Already more than 100 mil. € of damage
Civilized people certainly know who to deepen the economic crisis.

[Vorian]

A correction. There are the protesters that took to the roads peacefully and a couple of hundred punks that took advantage of the situation to cause some havoc.

[Zeev]

It seems that far left scumbags saw a good opportunity to express their love for mess and destruction.. :roll:

[Peris]

far left scumbags saw a good opportunity to express their love for mess and destruction.. :roll:


exactly that.

[Herman the II]

What a mess...



Dozens hurt as riots rage across Greece

Angry demonstrations spread across Greek cities and towns Monday in the third day of rioting that has left dozens injured and scores of properties destroyed.

"We've just lost count of how many demonstrations are taking place now," a police spokesman in Athens told CNN.


full story:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/12/08/greece.riots/index.html

[sujithkochi]

If what CNN says is the truth, the teenager was shot when he was trying to hurl a petrol bomb @ a police vehicle and now the cop is under investigation for that and has been charged with 'intentional manslaughter'?

does that mean the cops are not allowed to protect themselves even as self defense?

[Vorian]

If what CNN says is the truth, the teenager was shot when he was trying to hurl a petrol bomb @ a police vehicle and now the cop is under investigation for that and has been charged with 'intentional manslaughter'?

does that mean the cops are not allowed to protect themselves even as self defense?

That's false. The boy was either hurling stones with another 30 teens or just verbally attacking only, depends on the source you choose to believe. The cop was wrong and will pay for what he did. The rioters just used it as an excuse and the media (as always) throw more fuel into the fire and exaggerate

[Zeev]

does that mean the cops are not allowed to protect themselves even as self defense?

Not in democrazies.. :)

[j3T.be]

That's false. The boy was either hurling stones with another 30 teens or just verbally attacking only, depends on the source you choose to believe. The cop was wrong and will pay for what he did. The rioters just used it as an excuse and the media (as always) throw more fuel into the fire and exaggerate

So 30 kids throwing stones at 2 cops, without any decent reason, isn't wrong according to you? Get your head checked.

[Horse Thief]

Heh, I knew the Greeks still had that Balkan fiya just waiting to come back out!

[Amateur]

So 30 kids throwing stones at 2 cops, without any decent reason, isn't wrong according to you? Get your head checked.
It's wrong alright, but that doesn't mean the cops may shoot them at will. Especially not, if they were not "cornered", but left the scene and then came back.

As for the extent of the riots, I would say it's mainly due to a sense of "guilt" on the part of the police and the government for the murder, which made them let the violence escalate in order not to appear too autocratic.

[Vorian]

So 30 kids throwing stones at 2 cops, without any decent reason, isn't wrong according to you? Get your head checked.

The kids needed a good spanking not a bullet.
The cops were allegedly in their car when attacked, went to the police station and returned on foot. What happened next depends on the witness, what matters is that the kid was dead with a bullet through the heart.

[Herman the II]

What are they trying to achieve? Whats wrong with those people...




Fires rage as thousands riot for third day in Greece

ATHENS (*******) - Thousands of protesters rampaged through the heart of Athens on Monday, burning and looting shops on a third day of riots sparked by the killing of a teenager by police.

"We are experiencing moments of a great social revolution," said leftist activist Panagiotis Sotiris, 38, among those occupying a university building. "The protests will last as long as necessary."

Protests were reported in more than 10 cities across the nation of 11 million people, including the northern city of Thessaloniki and the tourist islands of Crete and Corfu.

Youths appeared to be in control of central Athens, plundering and setting fire to shops, destroying banks and attacking ministries. The city's huge Christmas tree went up in flames.

"We are not counting any more... The incidents cannot be counted," said a fire brigade officer.

Firemen extinguished a fire at one department store but the headquarters of Olympic Airways were still burning and all the city's fire engines were on the streets, he said.

More than 130 shops have already been destroyed in the capital, crushing retailers' hope that Christmas would compensate for Greece's darkening economic outlook. Police have detained more than 35 people and more than 50 are injured.


full story:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Fires_rage_as_thousands_riot_for_third_day_in_Greece.html?siteSect=143&sid=10061771&cKey=1228766918000&ty=ti

[Macs.]

Same kind of people who go to every protest, like anti G8 protests, just to cause trouble and destroy stuff. Simple. They don't even know the reason why they protest, just the sake of destroying.


It's wrong alright, but that doesn't mean the cops may shoot them at will. Especially not, if they were not "cornered", but left the scene and then came back.

For most police forces on this globe throwing a sized stone at someone is pretty much attempted murder. I guess it's not different in Greece.

The case simply needs to be reviewed by court, and all these protestors can go home.

[Vorian]

This article pretty much sums up why we are so hard on policemen along with other things.



Rebellion deeply embedded in Greece

The BBC's Malcolm Brabant looks at why student anger has erupted across Greece over Saturday's fatal police shooting of a teenage boy.
A youth clashes with riot police in Athens on 7 December 2008
Young people have been clashing with police in cities across Greece

The riots that have swept Greece for the past two days and look set to continue for the foreseeable future underline why the most important day in the national calendar is "Oxi" or "No" day.

"Oxi" day commemorates 28 October 1940, when Greek leader Ioannis Metaxas used that single word to reply to Mussolini's ultimatum to allow Italy to invade Greece, propelling his nation into World War II.

When Greeks say no, they mean it in spades.

Rebellion is deeply embedded in the Greek psyche. The students and school children who are now laying siege to police stations and trying to bring down the government are undergoing a rite of passage.

They may be the iPod generation, but they are the inheritors of a tradition that goes back centuries, when nuns would rather hurl themselves to death from mountain convents than submit to the ravages of Greece's Turkish Ottoman invaders.

'Springboards for violence'

The centre for this December rebellion is the Athens Polytechnic, where students have been out on the streets with wheelbarrows and shopping trolleys to collect and recycle rocks and pieces of marble used in the previous night's assaults.
A fire bomb burns next to riot police in Thessaloniki on 7 December 2008
The violence began in Athens and then spread to Thessaloniki

The polytechnic is the symbol of modern rebellion.

On 17 November 1973, tanks of the then six-year-old military dictatorship burst through the iron railings to suppress a student uprising against the colonels.

The exact casualty figure is still unknown to this day but it is believed that around 40 people were killed.

The sacrifice of the polytechnic was so significant that the post-junta architects of Greece's new constitution drafted the right of asylum, which bans the authorities from entering the grounds of schools and universities.

That is why places of learning are the springboards for the current wave of violence and it also explains why many of the riots are in university towns.

Students and pupils have effectively been given carte blanche to carry on protesting, because their professors have declared a three-day strike.

'Out of control'

Although many of today's protestors were not born when the polytechnic gates were crushed by the tanks, the lesson of the students' martyrdom is a key component of every Greek child's school democracy curriculum.

If Greece had already appeared difficult to govern, it will now will be out of control
Nikos Konstandaras, managing
editor of Kathimerini newspaper

The latent Greek contempt for the police, which has now erupted so volcanically, has its roots in the dictatorship, when the police were regarded as the colonels' enforcers and traitors to the people.

The death of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos at the hands of an experienced 37-year-old policeman has precipitated a wave of nationwide violence unseen since the dictatorship.

Whether it will lead to the fall of the unpopular conservative government of Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis is unclear.

It is premature to see the troubles as Greece's reprise of the Paris uprising of 1968.

One of the wisest observations has come from Nikos Konstandaras, the managing editor of Kathimerini, one of Greece's more sober and respected newspapers.

In an editorial entitled "Anger's teen martyr", Mr Konstandaras wrote that Mr Grioropoulos' blood would be "used to bind together every disparate protest and complaint into a platform of righteous rage against all the ills of our society.

"It will quickly become a flag of convenience for anyone who has a grudge against the state, the government, the economic system, foreign powers, capitalism and so on."

"If Greece had already appeared difficult to govern, it will now be out of control."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7771628.stm

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

For most police forces on this globe throwing a sized stone at someone is pretty much attempted murder. I guess it's not different in Greece.

I'm guessing it isn't possible for a policeman to differentiate between a rock, and a petrol bomb being hurled at him if he's some distance away.

There will surely be an investigation, but personally, I'm predisposed to side with the cop.

[KET]

Seems like they overreacted a bit. Can anyone from Greece update us on the situations because the news is saying that there are still students protesting.

[LaoSexMachine]

The police officer who fired the fatal shot has been charged with "manslaughter with intent" and suspended from duty, police said, adding that a second police officer was arrested Saturday on criminal accessory charges.
A police statement about the teenage boy's death said the incident started when six young protesters pelted a police patrol car with stones. The teen was shot as he tried to throw a petrol bomb at the officers, police said.
Other angry teens converged on the site almost immediately.
These young people -- often referred to in Greece (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/greece) as "the known-unknowns" -- use texting and Web sites to organize and communicate.
Fighting between youths and http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/12/08/greece.riots/index.html

[SBL]

This article pretty much sums up why we are so hard on policemen along with other things.
Sorry, but I'm having a hard time accepting the comparisons between Ioannis Metaxas and these punks.

[Patko M]

Good luck to my Greek brothers. Hope they teach those cops lesson.
Lately, cops tend to think they are above the law, and they can do whatever they want. Greece is not some western country where cops can abuse power, and everyone keeps quiet.

[LaoSexMachine]

Good luck to my Greek brothers. Hope they teach those cops lesson.
Lately, cops tend to think they are above the law, and they can do whatever they want. Greece is not some western country where cops can abuse power, and everyone keeps quiet.

What the fvck are you dribbling about, son?

[TheEvian100]

Good luck to my Greek brothers. Hope they teach those cops lesson.
Lately, cops tend to think they are above the law, and they can do whatever they want. Greece is not some western country where cops can abuse power, and everyone keeps quiet.

Greece is a western country, appart from some anarcho-fascist savages that choose to burn down hundreds of private citizen's business and injure innocent civilians and burn greek flags everywhere. Appartments were set on fire and even street-sellers and kiosks where assaulted. One policeman in Thessaloniki was assaulted and those "brothers" cut his fingers and injured his arm.

And all this in order to commemorate an unfortunate death of an upper-class teenager that messed with the wrong copper (with pending ballistic report). At the same time 2 brave, hard-working, fishermen lost their lives fighting the waves of the Aegean, to feed their families..For them the high-class, prada-wearing anarchists had nothing to say.

Greeks are against such rioting anarchists (est. number 5,000 nationally).

[LaoSexMachine]

It's a shame that the police has already been charged without any thorough investigation.

[Kilgor]

I was listening to some Sh1tbag communist on the BBC last night, who was saying the rioting was mostly the result of a small amount of individuals (and not to judge them) but yet there was genuine grievances.

What about the whole government and police force who are being judged because of quite possibly a mistake / accident of one person ?

[TheEvian100]

These groups also manages to burn down at least one fire-department truck... Once things like this happen, bbc and all the local lefty meadia should simply shut it with their "impartial" judging. The gorvernment has a lot to answer, Greece deserves better.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Good luck to my Greek brothers. Hope they teach those cops lesson.
Lately, cops tend to think they are above the law, and they can do whatever they want. Greece is not some western country where cops can abuse power, and everyone keeps quiet.

Good Grief. :roll:

Maybe the cops should go home and let these dear little anarchists have their way.

[Supe]

Good luck to my Greek brothers. Hope they teach those cops lesson.
Lately, cops tend to think they are above the law, and they can do whatever they want. Greece is not some western country where cops can abuse power, and everyone keeps quiet.

Yeah. Meanwhile people who are trying to make a living and to provide for family watch as their business, property burns down - not to mention economic harm which I doubt Greece can really afford. A harsh lesson when innocent people pay the price eh. These students ought not to have pride in their actions - and if it continues, the powers that be will be forced to crack down. In effect the students may well hand more power to the Govt and law enforcement. Obviously logic is no longer part of the curriculum.

[sujithkochi]

simple - make them pay for the damages they cause. thats what courts in our state (kerala in India) does.

[Herman the II]

Rioting Plunges Greece into Crisis

The Greek police seem powerless and the protestors feel all the stronger: Hundreds of youths rioted for a third night in Athens on Monday. Now the embattled government has convened crisis talks with opposition party leaders.

Greece is plunging into crisis after thousands of protestors rampaged through Athens for a third consecutive night on Monday in a wave of rioting sparked by the killing of a teenager by police on Saturday.

Youths appeared to be in control of central Athens for several hours on Monday night, looting and setting fire to shops, destroying banks and attacking ministries. Even the city's huge Christmas tree was set ablaze.

(...)


full story:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,595300,00.html

:bash:

[Vorian]

Right now it's more calm, there are just protests from students with a few objects thrown at cops from time to time. At night when those punk anarchists emerge we will have problems again.

[Connaught Ranger]

Good luck to my Greek brothers. Hope they teach those cops lesson.
Lately, cops tend to think they are above the law, and they can do whatever they want. Greece is not some western country where cops can abuse power, and everyone keeps quiet.

Put the tit back in your mouth sonny and come back in about 18 years when you have some cop on and something intelligent to contribute to the thread:bash:

[Vorian]

Put the tit back in your mouth sonny and come back in about 18 years when you have some cop on and something intelligent to contribute to the thread:bash:

Yeah, there are a lot like him, Italian anarchists have sent teir regards and admiration to their Greek brothers...... :D

[Beykoz]

Yeah. Meanwhile people who are trying to make a living and to provide for family watch as their business, property burns down - not to mention economic harm which I doubt Greece can really afford. A harsh lesson when innocent people pay the price eh. These students ought not to have pride in their actions - and if it continues, the powers that be will be forced to crack down. In effect the students may well hand more power to the Govt and law enforcement. Obviously logic is no longer part of the curriculum.
x2.........

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Have any of the 'Oh noes the sky is falling on western civilization crowd' started blaming islamic fundies for this yet?

;-)

[TheEvian100]

Information about the ballistic analysis says that the bullet hit the teenager by ricochet.

Our lefty media brought local anarchist "witnesses" which claimed the copper aimed directly and hit the boy on the chest, that seems to be a lie...



Εξοστρακισμό δείχνει η βαλλιστική09/12/2008
10:51

Νέα δεδομένα στην υπόθεση θανάτου του 15χρονου από τη σφαίρα του ειδικού φρουρού, που έχει προκαλέσει πρωτοφανείς ταραχές σε όλη τη χώρα.

Σύμφωνα με πληροφορίες του Αθήνα 9.84, η βαλλιστική έρευνα ολοκληρώθηκε και δείχνει ότι η σφαίρα έπληξε τον νεαρό μετά από εξοστρακισμό σε κολώνα ή μαρκίζα μπαλκονιού.
Πηγή: www.athina984.gr (http://www.athina984.gr/)

http://www.capital.gr/news.asp?Details=634726



PS: Eξοστρακισμό(ς) [GR] = Ricochet [EN]


Have any of the 'Oh noes the sky is falling on western civilization crowd' started blaming islamic fundies for this yet?

;-)

This is Greece, we don't need muslims to blame, we have our own savage anarcho-taliban. Maybe we should start exporting them to Aghanistan... Either way all of them are fascists. The positive thing is that common people are starting to assemble and defend their property all over the country. There's a story about a businessman that chassed 40 of those scum, trying to loot his store.

[valtrex]

Have any of the 'Oh noes the sky is falling on western civilization crowd' started blaming islamic fundies for this yet?

;-)

I know you're being sarcastic but if you think about it, both islamic extremists and anarchist fanatics share almost the same world view:
They both live with one foot in our world and one foot in the other, they have nothing invested in the earthly life that has so terribly let them down.

[TheEvian100]

Look what those democratic, fascist "multiculturalists" did to an orthodox church:
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6308/ceacceb3ceb9cebfcf822bcdz9.jpg

[achilles]

Information about the ballistic analysis says that the bullet hit the teenager by ricochet.

Our lefty media brought local anarchist "witnesses" which claimed the copper aimed directly and hit the boy on the chest, that seems to be a lie...



I hate the guts of those damn hooligans as much as you do but we need to get things straight here. There are 4 witnesses claiming that the cop shot in cold blood the kid without any apparent reason. Not all 4 witnesses are anarchists, or hooligans or extreme-leftists born to make the police look culpable.

You seem to be way too inclined to buy the cop's story and put a blame on a bunch of immature 15 year olds, whereas you should pay a bit more respect to the 15 year old's memory, whose funeral takes place as we speak.

[Vorian]

I hate the guts of those damn hooligans as much as you do but we need to get things straight here. There are 4 witnesses claiming that the cop shot in cold blood the kid without any apparent reason. Not all 4 witnesses are anarchists, or hooligans or extreme-leftists born to make the police look culpable.

You seem to be way too inclined to buy the cop's story and put a blame on a bunch of immature 15 year olds, whereas you should pay a bit more respect to the 15 year old's memory, whose funeral takes place as we speak.

Personally I trust neither the witnesses nor the cops. I am still waiting for the official analysis of the balistics.

[achilles]

Personally I trust neither the witnesses nor the cops. I am still waiting for the official analysis of the balistics.

Thats exactly my stance Vorian. That, instead of being an utter idiot implying that the cop is cool and the kid was provocative, as the kid's funeral is not over yet.

In any case, this moron should have never pulled his gun whatsoever. Now he will watch his 3 kids grow behind bars.

[Herman the II]

Another picture gallery (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-37872.html#backToArticle=595300).

[achilles]

Another picture gallery (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-37872.html#backToArticle=595300).

Its a warzone we are talking about. Its even worse than these pics.

[Vorian]

That clown Alavanos (member of a leftish party) asked for the disbanding of riot police cause they are undemocratic!!!

[achilles]

That clown Alavanos (member of a leftish party) asked for the disbanding of riot police cause they are undemocratic!!!

This stupid clown should STFU for good and go home, together with his home boy

[Herman the II]

Wut? With politicians like that its no wonder that the situation is out of control.
Poor policemen, on the footage I saw they were always highly outnumbered. They need more, not less..

[achilles]

Wut? With politicians like that its no wonder that the situation is out of control.
Poor policemen, on the footage I saw they were always highly outnumbered. They need more, not less..

This prick is not government but you are essentially right.

The police was crippled during Andrea's Papandreou socialist governments of the 80s and 90s. The situation remains the same ever since. The castration of the police was part of "restoring democracy" after 7 years of junta, during which the police was scrutinizing and torturing people.

So, the dogma of the police is a purely "defensive" one. I'd say passive. They just sit and watch people's properties being burnt and razed to the ground until all the steam is blown off. This doesnt work apparently but noone is willing to bear the political cost of dealing with the situation effectively.

We shouldnt complain. Those are the calls of the clowns WE've been voting for 20+ years.

[TheEvian100]

You seem to be way too inclined to buy the cop's story and put a blame on a bunch of immature 15 year olds, whereas you should pay a bit more respect to the 15 year old's memory, whose funeral takes place as we speak.

I don't buy the cop's story and I wouldn't give this cop a even a butter knife for that matter. I just read the news, so chill.

It seems to be a ricochet, that's all. If that's true then all the BS reports about direct aim and fire are simply... BS. Also I choose to pay repsect not just to the upper-class kid but also to those brave fishermen and all those people that die everyday, that 15 year old was one of them. We live in Greece and the whole issue is blown out of proportion by the lefty/liberal media.

[TheEvian100]

Personally I trust neither the witnesses nor the cops. I am still waiting for the official analysis of the balistics.

+1

That's why I commented on this only after the initial news on the ballistic report. I never took the cop's side.

[TheEvian100]

That clown Alavanos (member of a leftish party) asked for the disbanding of riot police cause they are undemocratic!!!

No wonder why the Greek Communist party has revealed that those troublemakers were originating from his party's body of protestesters. :roll:

[achilles]

Information about the ballistic analysis says that the bullet hit the teenager by ricochet.

You are so certain about the cop's lack of intention by posting something like this. You discovered a link containing some generalizations. Nothing more.


Our lefty media brought local anarchist "witnesses" which claimed the copper aimed directly and hit the boy on the chest, that seems to be a lie...

Here you are clearly downplaying the credibility of AT LEAST 4 witnesses who do not appear so much "anarchic" to me, unless someone with a beard is an commie/anarchist in your world.

Plus there is a blured video of the incident, which however suggests that no upheaval was going on, or anything else that could justify the cop pulling out the gun out of his ass.

I'd suggest you should be more carefull with your easy conclusions, especially as the kid's blood is still warm.

[TheEvian100]

Plus there is a blured video of the incident, which however suggests that no upheaval was going on, or anything else that could justify the cop pulling out the gun out of his ass.

I'd suggest you should be more carefull with your easy conclusions, especially as the kid's blood is still warm.

Achilles, there's no reason to be stuborn or emotional, whatever I posted has no connection with disrespecting the dead boy, the injured policemen, the injured citizens or the generation of poor poeple who lost jobs, cars and businesses.

I posted my sources which don't justify whatever the lefty media reported. Witnesses go to the court to testify, not on TV. You choose to beleive the over-hyped TV story, I choose to beleive the sources about the ongoing inquiry. We will know more in time, if the media is willing to let us know of course.

So I would suggest you not to use an unfortunate death or the destruction in our country to argue senslessly with me, please be more careful. It's pointless since we're compatriots and love our country and other citizen's lives, above all.

[Herman the II]

No surprise that there were more riots after the funeral, whats the outlook for tonight?



Violence breaks out during Greek teen's funeral

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Riot police fought running battles with mourners Tuesday after the funeral of a teenager whose shooting by officers triggered Greece's worst rioting in decades.

Officers fired heavy amounts tear gas to dispel dozens of youths throwing stones and sticks and setting trash cans on fire. No injuries were reported from the clashes, which started outside the cemetery and spread to a nearby district.


full story:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hBFlGGEp5P_Xn83Bw3PLwJ020A-QD94V98RO2

[Zeev]

I hope that the police will break the bones of all these anarchists.

[Jobu]

Rioting is fun.
Looting can get you that new TV you always wanted but couldn't afford.
Lighting fires and smashing things is fun. It makes you feel empowered.


These morons don't give a damn about the kid who died, this is about kids and assorted useless bums finding something to be a part of. And it's being incited by the opponents of Karamanlis who are using it as a way to chase him out of office.

Sure beats workin'.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Who protests like this?

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5429/01020137748900gb7.jpg

[TheEvian100]

I hope that the police will break the bones of all these anarchists.
+1

We need to see how Israel is tackling with such phenomena, our police force needs proper training, pulling guns like that is unacceptable. Also not acting against the riots is pathetic, they did not act with any coordination or planning that would protect citizens, cars, streets and businesses.


These morons don't give a damn about the kid who died, this is about kids and assorted useless bums finding something to be a part of. And it's being incited by the opponents of Karamanlis who are using it as a way to chase him out of office.

As much as I hate this Karamanlis regime, there's much truth to the above statement.

[valtrex]

No surprise that there were more riots after the funeral, whats the outlook for tonight?

full story:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hBFlGGEp5P_Xn83Bw3PLwJ020A-QD94V98RO2
Well during the whole morning our PM met with the leaders of all the parliament parties, left wing or right wing and asked for "concensus". My guess is that this concensus means he is willing to put article 48 of our constitution into force which deals with imminent threats against national security. But it is an extreme measure. We'll see. To answer your question, I think tonight we'll experience the longest and most difficult night of the year

[b0sco]

I've heard that there will be a massive general strike tomorrow which will cause more problems?

[Weasel]

An independent group, not the police will not lead the investigation of the teenagers death. I see they trust their police as much as we do in Germany. :)

[Zeev]

+1

We need to see how Israel is tackling with such phenomena, our police force needs proper training, pulling guns like that is unacceptable. Also not acting against the riots is pathetic, they did not act with any coordination or planning that would protect citizens, cars, streets and businesses.
.

I've been in greece two times, and all I can say is that this is a great country, people are friendly, and the landscapes are magnificent. I can understand that the greek population is touched by diverse social and economic problems, like in a lot of other countries, but I am outraged to see that far left parasites get back the death of this young person with the aim of putting a such beautiful country in fire, shame on this scum..

About the police coodination, I'm not sure that Israel would do better, Israel have an experience especially about war situations and counter terror, they also use to deal with light palestinian riots, but it would be really different if they had to deal with massive riots involving israeli citizens.

[valtrex]

I've heard that there will be a massive general strike tomorrow which will cause more problems?
I do not think so. Usually, when there's a large number of protestors gathered on the streets, extreme-leftists disappear (especially when the demonstration is organised by the Commusists. You probably know the "relationship" between anarchists and communists and how they "love" each other). In short, I do not think that in brought daylight, these cowards will do anything

[KET]

Is it just me or the Greek riot police don't use rubber bullets or water cannons? If not, how come? Teargas alone is not going to disperse them.

[flanker7]

You are right. They don't use.

Politicians tie the hands of the Police and then they ask for respinsibilities.

The asshats

[Weasel]

Is it just me or the Greek riot police don't use rubber bullets or water cannons? If not, how come? Teargas alone is not going to disperse them.
Does any european country use rubber bullets?

[KET]

Does any european country use rubber bullets?

Yes. Many European (Swiss, Hungarians, Poles, Serbians, French, Spanish and Germans) riot police use them.

[achilles]

Achilles, there's no reason to be stuborn or emotional, whatever I posted has no connection with disrespecting the dead boy, the injured policemen, the injured citizens or the generation of poor poeple who lost jobs, cars and businesses.

I certainly aint stubborn for projecting the clear bias your posts were dripping with.


I posted my sources which don't justify whatever the lefty media reported. Witnesses go to the court to testify, not on TV. You choose to beleive the over-hyped TV story, I choose to beleive the sources about the ongoing inquiry. We will know more in time, if the media is willing to let us know of course.

I believe in facts. A cop killing a kid, or pulling a gun for that matter, and a subsequent riot of a bunch of coward hooligans are not over-hyped facts. They are major facts that need to be seriously addressed for once.



So I would suggest you not to use an unfortunate death or the destruction in our country to argue senslessly with me, please be more careful. It's pointless since we're compatriots and love our country and other citizen's lives, above all.

It was you who downplayed facts and displayed a sort of bias i have come across more than once. Be honest with yourself.

And since we are indeed compatriots and both love our country, lets leave it to that.

[Macs.]

Yes. Many European (Swiss, Hungarians, Poles, Serbians, French, Spanish and Germans) riot police use them.

There are no rubber bullets deployed with German riot police, however there were talks about introducing them after the last G8 riots.

Italy also atleast used rubber bullets, not sure about the current situation.

[chris450]

this is Genova G8 ,reloaded

they must bust some heads in tonight,this has gone way to far

[Macs.]

A.C.A.B.

I think you are on the wrong website, you asshat. :roll:

[chris450]

157 arrests today ,108 of which were moved to the Police headquarters in Ampelokipoi district..50 Greeks and 58 foreigners

it seems some illegal immigrants joined the "smash a shop and steal a TV" bandwagon

[Herman the II]

I've heard that there will be a massive general strike tomorrow which will cause more problems?


Seems quite right...



Greek Police Fight Protesters a 4th Day as General Strike Looms

Greek police used tear gas to disperse stone-throwing protesters outside the country’s parliament on the fourth day of unrest after the killing of a youth by security forces. Demonstrations may resume tomorrow when unions hold a general strike.

The country’s biggest labor groups, GSEE, which represents about 2 million workers, and civil-service union ADEDY, with 500,000 members, rebuffed a call by Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis to cancel planned rallies in Athens tomorrow to prevent more clashes. Pledges by Karamanlis’s government, which is fighting declining voter popularity, to show no leniency to those responsible for the boy’s death have failed to stem the violence.


full story:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=a7XHZrukmLAQ&refer=europe

Whats the actual aim of those "demonstrations"? New elections?

[AK-Lover]

It seems police aren't very popular in the Balkan nations....
:/

[flanker7]

Are they anywhere?!

[Herman the II]

Are they anywhere?!

Sure, at least in Germany they are the one of the most "trusted" and "respected" institutions (if not the). I would be surprised if that wasn't the case in most European countries.

[AK-Lover]

Well I can tell you for sure in Serbia there is a well known saying that goes
"Bolje cerka kurva nego sin pandur" which means "better a daughter who's a whore than a son who's a cop"

[valtrex]

Sure, at least in Germany they are the one of the most "trusted" and "respected" institutions (if not the). I would be surprised if that wasn't the case in most European countries.
Don't forget, 34 yrs ago we were under an oppressive military junta where torture was a deliberate daily practice carried out by the Police. I do not think you can understand the deep & prejudiced mistrust (perhaps unjustifiable today, I agree) Greeks have adopted towards the Police. The wounds have not healed yet

[achilles]

Don't forget, 34 yrs ago we were under an oppressive military junta where torture was a deliberate daily practice carried out by the Police. I do not think you can understand the deep & prejudiced mistrust (perhaps unjustifiable today, I agree) Greeks have adopted towards the Police. The wounds have not healed yet

Mainly thanks to leftist rhetoric which is so appealling among youngsters.

[Connaught Ranger]

Don't forget, 34 yrs ago we were under an oppressive military junta where torture was a deliberate daily practice carried out by the Police. I do not think you can understand the deep & prejudiced mistrust (perhaps unjustifiable today, I agree) Greeks have adopted towards the Police. The wounds have not healed yet

Thats no excuse for the shi*e thats happening on the streets of Greece today, its plain and simple Anarchy.:bash:

You are just trying to use the actions of the Police as a poor excuse.

[boreal]

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4028/dscf6691ao0.jpg

Guardia Civil for example uses rubber bullets from the Cetme C rifles

[Peris]

That clown Alavanos (member of a leftish party)


please don't insult clowns calling them Alavanos (btw the wealthiest politician in Greece. :)

[Vorian]

please don't insult clowns calling them Alavanos (btw the wealthiest politician in Greece. :)

LOL, so true

[Supe]

this is Genova G8 ,reloaded

they must bust some heads in tonight,this has gone way to far

Yup. When the average person becomes intimidated, when you can't go about your business without threat of violence or being caught up in it, when business is suffering and tax dollars are being frittered away, then the Govt must authorise Police to use heavier tactics, lest the faith in the State to protect its citizens be drastically undermined. When this happens, people take the law into their own hands. That said, and reading the Greek responses, it must be done with the message that there will be no return to the times of the Junta but that what is being done is to restore peace and security.

With each day that passes, more of the Greek taxpayers money is going up in smoke. Money that could be spent on social services, education, health, infrastructure, R&D, paying off debt, Defence.

I hope Govt and State Govt in my country are taking notice. The 'do-nothing approach lest ye antagonise' is not an appropriate response to violent protest.

[eskachig]

BS !!!
During the junta , it was the supporters of the Center and the democratic sides that suffered more than the socialists and communists. It was Karamanlis that legalized the commies to heal the wounds of the civil war and how do those commies pay the Greek society back ? Raising youth to become the criminals you watch on TV these days.Wait, are you saying communists raise anarchists?

That little punk ended up in the wrong place , wrong time and pissed the wrong cop.I think that's a rotten attitude.

[loganinkosovo]

Well I can tell you for sure in Serbia there is a well known saying that goes
"Bolje cerka kurva nego sin pandur" which means "better a daughter who's a whore than a son who's a cop"

I used to tell my friend's in Bosnia and Kosovo that they don't need Criminals, they have Cops.

Having said that I'm quite sure the Greek Cops are nothing like the Balkans Cops.

They need to declare martial law, bring in the tanks and start capping some of these worthless f@ckers. See how fast the riots stop when the Government gets serious.

[Paya]

I've heard on the news today that the late boy's parents have said that protesters should throw flowers on the streets instead of molotov cocktails. This, in my humble opinion, takes away any argument the hooligans had to riot, and the police not to act. As someone said, time to bust some heads, not least because any further rioting would be a gross disrespect to the mourning parents and the kid's memory.

[valtrex]

BS !!!
During the junta , it was the supporters of the Center and the democratic sides that suffered more than the socialists and communists. It was Karamanlis that legalized the commies to heal the wounds of the civil war and how do those commies pay the Greek society back ? Raising youth to become the criminals you watch on TV these days.
It's unfortunate what happened to the kid but maybe some "reporters" should ask his parents what he was doing at Exarhia confronting cops. His family is well off , did he feel the need to be advnenturous
Cops in Greece are pretty mellow, why provoke them ?
There were two medical examiners , if both agree the bullet ricocheted , the cop should walk a free man.
That little punk ended up in the wrong place , wrong time and pissed the wrong cop.
If that 15yr old was aligned with the extreme right , the Greeks here know whom I am refering to , it would be no news and we would not be arguing .
Wait a mimute hold your horses! I'm not saying that this opinion is justifiable, I'm just saying that this is what the majority of our society holds (please refer to various polls, where the Police alongside the press and our politicians receive the lowest level of support). And just a minor comment: it's impossible for the commies to support anarchism, it's against their ideals and political agenda. Please read Paul Mattick's "Moscow and fascism in Spain. The Communists fought alongside the Spanish Police against the anarchists and the anti-Stalinists of POUM.

[boreal]

That was because the commies in Spain were more worried in exterminate their political adversaries in the republican territory than in fight in the first line. So they lost the war.

[Vorian]

They need to declare martial law, bring in the tanks and start capping some of these worthless f@ckers. See how fast the riots stop when the Government gets serious.

The government that does this is guaranteed never again to rule, so I don't think it's going to happen.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

As someone already mentioned our Police needs rubber bullets and water cannons. Make thos scumbags wet during December, and lets see if they will stay in the streets or go to their mama...

[Vorian]

As someone already mentioned our Police needs rubber bullets and water cannons. Make thos scumbags wet during December, and lets see if they will stay in the streets or go to their mama...

[Leftish and media response]ΟΗ, ΝΟ! Water canons and rubber bullets are tools to fasism, autocracy and police terrorism! We can't have our children and the poor workers hit by bullets! Fasist pigs, you all need to die[/Leftish and media response]

[boreal]

http://www.3gazte.net/files/images/moraton1.preview.jpg

At almost 100 meters is very funny.

[Vorian]

Ouch......

[b0sco]

Pity you can't have them, even our police here in Germany has water canons, and that means something.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

http://www.3gazte.net/files/images/moraton1.preview.jpg

At almost 100 meters is very funny.
My sympathy for someone with such an injury would be greatly diminished if it were the case that the individual was involved in riotous behavior such as throwing petrol bombs, overturning cars etc.

[boreal]

My sympathy for someone with such an injury would be greatly diminished if it were the case that the individual was involved in riotous behavior such as throwing petrol bombs, overturning cars etc.

It´s just a pic of what happens to the rioters when the police has a shiny assault rifle launching rubber bullets, it´s better that than a injured officer or a civilian. No simpathy at all for that guy, he got what he deserved.

[Kilgor]

Turns out the bullet did hit him after a ricochet.

Not that would make any difference to the rioters.

[Ghelp]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dVK0eB02Ndeo/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ara5oVfKFcBb/610x.jpg

The policeman who is facing murder charges for the shooting of teenager Alexandros Grigoropoulos, 15, is escorted by police as he enters a prosecutor's office in Athens, December 10, 2008. The policeman testified that he fired warning shots in self-defence when a gang of youths threw firebombs at him, court sources said. A Greek prosecutor ordered two policemen to be sent to prison pending trial for the shooting of Grigoropoulos which has sparked five days of rioting in Greece, a court official said on Wednesday. One of the policemen has been charged with murder and the other as an accomplice. "They are both ordered to be held in prison pending trial," said the official, who declined to be named.

[Ghelp]

Why don't the Greeks test out there Leopard-2's?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

It´s just a pic of what happens to the rioters when the police has a shiny assault rifle launching rubber bullets, it´s better that than a injured officer or a civilian. No simpathy at all for that guy, he got what he deserved.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I was worried that it was being provided as a graphic example of police brutality or something like that.

I do think police should always try to use their equipment with discretion.

[kato2k6]

Why don't the Greeks test out there Leopard-2's?
Because the last time Greece used tanks against demonstrators, it launched two years of civil unrest, overthrew the "government" and started a terrorist group active for the next 30 years.

[Mynameischarlie]

from Spiegel.de/German news mag:

"A young blond-haired woman, around 30 years old & dressed in an expensive business suit with a laptop bag, talks to one of the violent prostester. They seem to understand eachother, maybe they are relatives. It seems that they are joking about the situation. His mates keep throwing stones at the cops.
After a while the woman leaves elegantly the site and the prostester bends down and picks up a stone & throw it over street towards the cops."

"Greece's crisis is the result of a ruling elite, which loses all of its' credibility."

[Parx400]

How many days has this been going on? Durring the King Riots in LA there were Police, NG, Regular Army and Even the Marines in the city by day 5. There is a picture somewhere of an M1 tank in LA.

People screamed over Roddy king being beatin but did not care about the people shot and killed durring the riots by the Police and NG.

Freedom ends when your actions are effecting everyone around you. There is no freedom to destroy personal property. People in Greece are not oppressed, there is no reason for this kind of crap. Send the army in with a **** tone of zip ties.

[Vorian]

Major riots are over...there are still sceduled protests and there will be some heat there but nothing like before.

[Elfstone44]

I spent a number of years in Greece and would like to venture an opinion from a reasonably knowledgeable outsider. The extreme left-wing of Greek politics is a carry-over from the civil war. In the 50's the exiled communists (to Yugoslavia, Romania, Hungary) came back. By the mid-60's Greece was ungovernable (go see "Z" again).

Then came the Colonels' Coup in April 1967. It was an interesting time; Vietnam protesters were in the street. The Arabs had just suffered another crushing defeat by Israel...Wadi Haddad had set up his organization to mobilize the radical left for socialism and the Palestinian cause. The Bloc was heavy into the Cold War. And along came the coup...fascism in Europe-right on the lefties front door. Greek radical students organized in European cities, mainly Paris and Berlin but also Frankfurt to conduct operations against the Junta. They failed miserably. They did, however, rally the other far-left Euroterrorist organizations to their cause, European Intellectuals (Jean Paul Satre, Dr. Antoni Negri..and others come to mind) - it was oh so fashionable - and inevitably the Palestinians (who retain contacts in the Greek Anarchist movement to this day).

The Junta did very well for the 1st 5 years bringing electricity to the countryside, etc. Then they stayed too long and ultimately overreached by the coup attempt against Makarios in Cyprus and attempted takeover "Enosis" which led to the Turkish invasion. By 1974 they were out.

The radicals, however, hadn't enough with the return of democracy; they wanted a leftist/socialist revolution in the streets. In a huge meeting in Spring 1975 they opted to continue an armed struggle. ELA bombs began going off immediately. It took 17 November, the silent shooters, longer but they killed Richard Welch in December 1975. And for the next 27 years Greece was a terrorist haven. The police could do nothing right; bombs went off in Athens weekly. Cars were torched, people murdered, banks robbed, cars stolen, rockets fired at ships and cars and buses, single-shot assassinations of people stuck in traffic by shooters on motorcycles, huge bombs detonated killing diplomats, Palestinian terrorists allowed to hijack aircraft, raid Israeli installations, shoot up ferries, embassies attacked over and over again - French, German, American, Brit..., diplomats assassinated, all in the name of a "political movement," which had no coherent objectives other than extreme left takeover of the reins of power. by the 1990's Athens was judged to be the most dangerous place in the world for US Diplomats, ahead of Beirut and Bogota. And some PASOK socialist politicians inevitably were implicated.

Out of this ferment in the 90's the Anarchists emerged..even as ELA was run out of the terrorist business because of revelations in the European press about their connections to the Stasi and KGB. 17N ultimately was arrested in 2002 although their governmental connections, admitted to by the leader Alexandros Yiotopoulos, were never run down, and the man who shot Welch walked free and takes coffee in Exarchia to this day.

But the Anarchists? They were tolerated, though they fired rockets at embassies, robbed banks, stole cars, were responsible for huge amounts of petty theft and arson. And the Greek body politic, paralyzed by fear, and by decades of left-right conflict could bring itself to do nothing. I recall a recent instance when there was a "spontaneious protest" in front of the PM's house...500 anarchists in a "flash mob" drove their motorcycles to the house and "dismissed" the police guarding the house while they stoned it. The slightest police "event" was exploited by left wing parties including PASOK. A cop gets killed? Tought Sh*t..an anarchist thug?..riots. Doesn't anyone remember 9/11 when the US was loudly booed during "moments of silence" for the victims at Greek soccer games? Anyone remember when these same Anarchists burned Athens during the visit of Bill Clinton in 1999?

They're still there. and they're part of the wider European anarchist movement. Here's a test: Who was the anarchist killed at the Genoa G-7 riots Carlo Giuliani? Turns out he's the nephew of an italian woman killed trying to bomb the US Embassy in Athens in 1972. Leftism/Anarchism in Europe, but particularly in Italy and Greece, is a family business.

So what is Europe going to do about all this? There is nothing you can give these people to make them change their ways..,.no political concessions...nothing...Greek politicians and businessmen are hostage to the violent indigent who have no/no political ideas at all...violence is the end. So what is Europe going to do?

PS: WAIT A MINUTE: Europe isn't dithering hoping the USA will solve their problem once again...like they did in Kosovo? so they can take their cappuccinos and croissants and sit in the cafes and critize the Yanks...just like they do now, with an airy dismissive gesture as they're served by the Algerian who'll ultimately take their place? The French and Germans and Greeks and Italiasn and Brits wouldn't do that, right? Nah...couldn't be.....

[valtrex]

I spent a number of years in Greece and would like to venture an opinion from a reasonably knowledgeable outsider. The extreme left-wing of Greek politics is a carry-over from the civil war. In the 50's the exiled communists (to Yugoslavia, Romania, Hungary) came back. By the mid-60's Greece was ungovernable (go see "Z" again)
Interesting view, grossly oversimplified if I may add, though. You should not forget that the first “Warm war” of the "Cold war" started in Greek soil in 1946. The Great powers, from either the West or the East, found their happy playground here. The result: a humiliated left, eager to take revenge and thus becoming myrmidon of the SU and a purblind right, who although were the winners, followed a policy which drove themselves into a corner: when the US General James Van Fleet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Van_Fleet), visited Makronissos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makronissos) (the island used as a place of imprisonment for Greek communists, hosting hundreds of prisoners, after the civil war), he stated:
"For me, today's visit to Makronissos was one of the happiest days of my life. Verily, a national Baptismal" (February 23, 1949).
And the response of our PM Panayotis Kanellopoulos was:
"General, you are witnessing the construction of contemporary Greece's New Parthenon."
Even for me, who I am no communist or a leftist, these quotes by both men on the occasion of their day-long visit to that Hellpit, where "pulled nails were welcomed by the
leftist detainees, in lieu of the more horrific alternatives" ("letters from exile", 1951) drive me mad.

PS: WAIT A MINUTE: Europe isn't dithering hoping the USA will solve their problem once again...like they did in Kosovo? so they can take their cappuccinos and croissants and sit in the cafes and critize the Yanks...just like they do now, with an airy dismissive gesture as they're served by the Algerian who'll ultimately take their place? The French and Germans and Greeks and Italiasn and Brits wouldn't do that, right? Nah...couldn't be.....
No, thank you, no more unsolicited saviours who all they're wiiling to do is "save" us even if we do not want to be saved, and 40 years later while on official visit, express their sorry for the past misdeeds (Apologia Clintonia in 1999)

[Nobi]

Interesting articles:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/greece.php

http://jp.dk/uknews/article1538737.ece

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/110149.html

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/12/10/muslim-riots-in-spain-denmark-greece-uk/

[Nobi]

Who is behind the riots? This is confusing me. Found this here: http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2633

[achilles]

Who is behind the riots? This is confusing me. Found this here: http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2633

1. School and university students in rage
2. Lifeless hooligans with way too much spare time available
3. Anarchists & leftists who think they make a better society by razing down private property
4. Far-right individuals/ blockheaded citizens who grabbed the opportunity and went on the streets to beat the hell out of innocent immigrants. Some of them side with the police (or are unofficially deployed by the police) and try to counter the other side.
5. Immigrants (some Greeks are included in that group) who grabbed the opportunity and launched a looting campaign.

Its a complete mess.

[Herman the II]

After a relatively calm night the violence has started again:




Renewed violence in Athens, 1 hurt

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Students pelted at least six police stations with rocks in hit-and-run attacks in Athens on Thursday, as sporadic violence continued following five days of rioting over the death of a teenager in a police shooting.

Authorities said at least one man was injured and hospitalized, while across the capital scores of high school students blocked busy roads and overturned police cars.

The attacks follow the worst rioting Greece has seen in decades, in which gangs of masked youths wielding metal bars smashed stores, looted businesses and set up f aming barricades across streets in cities throughout the country.

At least 70 people have been injured since Saturday when the rioting broke out within hours of the killing of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos. Hundreds of stores have been damaged or destroyed.
The police and government have come under intense criticism for their handling of the crisis, despite authorities' insistence that they avoided heavy handed policing to prevent bloodshed.



full story:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hBFlGGEp5P_Xn83Bw3PLwJ020A-QD950GJ8O0


Greek embassies became target all across Europe:



Solidarity Protests Across Europe Turn Violent

As Greece entered its sixth day of unrest sparked by the police shooting of a 15-year-old boy, violence spread to other parts of Europe on Thursday. Solidarity protests in cities including Rome, Madrid and Copenhagen turned into skirmishes between demonstrators and police.

In Istanbul about a dozen Turkish left-wing protestors daubed red paint over the front of the Greek consulate, while the country's embassies in Rome and Moscow were attacked by fire bombers and stone throwers. In the Italian university town of Bologna, five police officers were reported injured after clashing with demonstrators outside the Greek consulate.

In Madrid nine people were arrested when things turned violent and another two were detained in Barcelona, after police broke up a demonstration attended by around 300 young people. A protest in the Danish capital Copenhagen also turned nasty with 32 people arrested after run-ins with the police.


full story:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,595793,00.html

[sammy03]

It was "normal" all this things to happen in Greece. But of course nothing will change. Everybody is screaming about the current situation here. And i don't mean only the violence,but also the economy, education, health and many others. I am 100% sure, that when the time for elections come, the same people who are shouting now, they will be the first who will give their vote to the people who brought Greece in this point.

[SBL]

Comparatively speaking, what's the standard of living like for your average Greek.

[Anomander]

......text........more text.....


When i started reading this i knew that the conclusion would be the eurabia-theory:roll:

As to the riots, i don't think even the rioters themselves exactly know why they are rioting:|

[SBL]

When i started reading this i knew that the conclusion would be the eurabia-theory:roll:

As to the riots, i don't think even the rioters themselves exactly know why they are rioting:|
You mean that one indirect reference he made in the second-to-last sentence?

[sammy03]

I can't tell you exactly SnakeBiteLeader about the average Greek. My parents have good jobs. My sister who works in the biggest hotel group company in Greece, works in the reservation department in one hotel. Earns 700-900 Euros every month( it depends from the Bonus). She lives in Thessaloniki. She spend 320 for rent for a single apartment. 100 Euros for the building(oil e.t.c), 100 for apartments water and electricity and about 100-150 Euros for supermarket!!!! Every month 700 as you see. And she lives alone! Imagine a typicall family of 4 persons with 2 children and each to earn 700 every month!

[SBL]

Thanks, Sammy. I really know very little about contemporary Greece, outside of what I see on travel shows or read about- and those most often are tourism-related.
It's pretty interesting to me that so many anarchist and leftist groups persist, and I was wondering how big a role living conditions might play.

[sammy03]

It is! Trust me! My father is hotel manager in a hotel in Chalkidiki and my mother works in the hotel's shop. I am very lucky! But i know people who keep a family of 4 with only 700 a month! Only 1 works of course!

[Fireglow]

So 30 kids throwing stones at 2 cops, without any decent reason, isn't wrong according to you? Get your head checked.

Two Words:

RUBBER BULLETS

Why they did they use hard ones?

[sammy03]

Two Words:

RUBBER BULLETS

Why they did they use hard ones?

Do you really now why everything started??? They killed a 15-year old boy and you want to use rubber bullets??? They would put on fire the whole Greece!!!

[b0sco]

Two Words:

RUBBER BULLETS

Why they did they use hard ones?

Assuming you're talking about the incident that started the riots,

a) Greek police doesn't possess rubber bullets

b) Which patrol car carries a gun loaded with rubber bullets?

[Amateur]

Two Words:
RUBBER BULLETS
Why they did they use hard ones?
Rubber bullets are special equipment; you can't have cops carry them all the time. Those were cops on patrol, armed only with their sidearms.
Besides, the use of rubber bullets is a pretty controversial issue; they can also be lethal under circumstances and should be used with extreme care.

[Elfstone44]

Thanks for the reply Valtrex. I did simplify things...its hard to summarize 60 years of history in 5 paragraphs. However, I will respond to five points you made below (and again this is the opinion of a "philhellene" but in the end an outsider):

"You should not forget that the first “Warm war” of the "Cold war" started in Greek soil in 1946. The Great powers, from either the West or the East, found their happy playground here. The result: a humiliated left, eager to take revenge and thus becoming myrmidon of the SU and a purblind right, who although were the winners, followed a policy which drove themselves into a corner:"

1. I believe based on years of conversations with Greeks that actally to understand elements of Greek leftism (and I'm not sure I do) you really have to go back as far as 1204 AD, the 4th Crusade and its sack of Constantinople and forced conversion to Catholicism (for 80 years). "Revolutionary Organization 17 November" had a strong Orthodox as well as Trotskyite flavor. There is a hatred of the Catholic and Protestant west in Greek society left over from this event...and it spills into the violent and supposedly a-religious left as well. And it definitely splashes onto America. (there is a thread on greatest sea battles in the "strategy and tactic" line...take a look at Lepanto and you'll see the Venetians had already been forced out of Cyprus by the Turks 10 weeks before the battle..and the Orthodox inhabitants supported the Turk takeover. There is a Greek saying from the time..."better the turban of a Turk than the Mitre of a Pope.")

....Observation -- There is a theory that to be considered "European" in its modern context, a nation had to have participated in 3 great modern continent-wide events: The crusades, the Reformation, and the 30 Years War. Well, Greece played a role in the crusades...or rather the Eastern Roman Empire did...well sort of, it was their emmissary to the Pope in 1096 which led to the preaching of the battle mass). But the Byzantium Romans retained a healthy skepticism of the fanaticism and cupidity of the Frankish Crusaders and Roman troops did not follow to Jerusalem. But, after 29 May 1453 though, it was pretty much hors-de-combat. So are modern Greeks really European?

"when the US General James Van Fleet, visited Makronissos (the island used as a place of imprisonment for Greek communists, hosting hundreds of prisoners, after the civil war), he stated: "For me, today's visit to Makronissos was one of the happiest days of my life. Verily, a national Baptismal" (February 23, 1949).

And the response of our PM Panayotis Kanellopoulos was: "General, you are witnessing the construction of contemporary Greece's New Parthenon."

2. As for modern events, you'll notice that I did start my opinion with mention of the Greek Civil War 1946-1949. I always wonder if it would have been better to let Greece be communist for 50 years. You sure don't see the Romanians and Bulgarians kids today mooning about the great "socialist era" they were forced to endure from 1946-1989.

"Even for me, who I am no communist or a leftist, these quotes by both men on the occasion of their day-long visit to that Hellpit, where "pulled nails were welcomed by the leftist detainees, in lieu of the more horrific alternatives" ("letters from exile", 1951) drive me mad." "

3. That Civil War was tirggered by a communist attempt to take over Athens in December 1944. Everyone knows the stories of communist guerrillas in Greece, who were supposed to fight the Germans, actually concentrating on eliminating the nationalist opposition and preparing for a post-war coup. And like most civil wars when it got going in 1946 supported from the Bloc Yugoslavia, it was awful; the stories of atrocities on both sides are horrific. But I reserve the most opprobrium for the Reds...and when they were beaten, they retreated into the Bloc countries taking thousands of kidnapped kids with them. I read "Eleni" and my blood ran cold. It was a tough time. May I ask what were the politics of your parents?

"No, thank you, no more unsolicited saviours who all they're wiiling to do is "save" us even if we do not want to be saved, and 40 years later while on official visit, express their sorry for the past misdeeds (Apologia Clintonia in 1999)"

4. We did indeed have to save Europe's butt in Kosovo and Bosnia yet again...and 10 years later we're still there!! This is getting old for us and we have absolutely no interest in doing it again. As for me, I'd let NATO go. Let the Europeans defend themselves from the Russians. I've had it with what seems to me be the smug sanctimoniousness and condescension and do-nothing sit-on-the-hands attitude of our allies. (except for the Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Polish, Slovakians, Czechs, Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Moldovans, Ukranians, Armenians, Georgians, etc.. who really are threatened..unlike your Greek silliness.)

5. As for Bill Clinton and his apology in Athens, what did he apologize for? For our not overthrowing the Junta? He wasn't even there at the time!!! Look, the Soviets recognized the Junta within 5 days of its taking power; the US didn't do so until 11 months later when the Colonels threated to do a "Nasser" on Nato. And it was Johnson who saved Papandreaou from Papadopoulos saying, "tell papa whats-his-name to leave papa whats-his-name alone." Clinton's statement was made against all recommendations of the State Department and National Security Council. They knew it would be used by the Lefties to justify whatever they wanted to do against America and for Greeks of all stripes to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions. It has been and it will be. It was supremely stupid and egotistical. Clinton did the same thing in Africa; after Monica, he seemed to have to run around the world apologizing...not for himself...no way could he do that...but for America. Silly thing to do IMHO.

Enough ranting about history...what's Greece going to do now?

[Vorian]

More idiocy from the Greek left. They know propose that a solution could be to move the voting age to 16 years old!!!

Link in Greek sorry http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=966977&lngDtrID=244

[achilles]

More idiocy from the Greek left. They know propose that a solution could be to move the voting age to 16 years old!!!

Link in Greek sorry http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=966977&lngDtrID=244

So those pathetic clowns can get more votes by convincing youngsters that its cool to play Che Gue Vara in Exarchia Sq.

Alavanos and Tsipras are so sad....

[Vorian]

Indeed. And the saddest thing is that their party is on the rise.

[Pezy]

Originally Posted by Elfstone44 http://militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3755703#post3755703)
(...)
the man who shot Welch walked free and takes coffee in Exarchia to this day.
(...)


Post 9/11 and ante Athens 2004 why didn't US Agencies or Greece deal with him/her? Perhaps because there is a 20 year statute of limitation for murder in Greece like in some states in the US and no case could stand in court due to lack of evidence and Greece doesn't extradite her citizens easily like the US... especially to countries with death penalty in use. Perhaps he has retired many years ago and making him 'disappear' would cause more problems or he has co-operated with the authorities like some from the '70s or because US wants to leave something in suspension for future use, to put pressure on Greece every now and then and throw dirt at her in "60 minutes".
Things happen for a reason and it's not always the worst one.



Originally Posted by valtrex http://militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3756116#post3756116)
(...)
You should not forget that the first “Warm war” of the "Cold war" started in Greek soil in 1946. The Great powers, from either the West or the East, found their happy playground here.
(...)
No, thank you, no more unsolicited saviours who all they're wiiling to do is "save" us even if we do not want to be saved, and 40 years later while on official visit, express their sorry for the past misdeeds (Apologia Clintonia in 1999)


Wrong and way wrong...



(...)
Enough ranting about history...what's Greece going to do now?

What else than ask for help like compensation money from our Frankish friends in the EU like the Byzantines we are... just like the good ol' times p-)

[Amateur]

@ Elfstone: thanks for your posts, it is always interesting to hear an educated outsider's view on one's own country. Just a few points:

1. I don't think you need to go back to 1204 to explain the Greek Leftists' dislike of Western Powers. That is rather a sign of right wing nationalistic elements influenced by the Orthodox Church, while the Leftists would base their anti-western views on marxist analysis about capitalism and imperialism.

2.


I always wonder if it would have been better to let Greece be communist for 50 years. You sure don't see the Romanians and Bulgarians kids today mooning about the great "socialist era" they were forced to endure from 1946-1989.
That's a fair point. However, that's the kind of opinion that an already biased person would never accept. And there's the great mistake of the right wingers in Greece: although their rule (along with western support) kept Greece safe throughout the Cold War and made it a heaven of prosperity compared with its communist neighbours, their suppressive policies toward the leftists helped them maintain the moral high ground. Which was not the case in other countries; for instance my impression is that Spain has handled the same problem much better throughout the years.


Enough ranting about history...what's Greece going to do now?
Nothing very dramatic, I assume. Reports about the damages, let alone about an upcoming "uprising", were grossly exaggerated. The government did well to keep its calm and not declare martial law or other harsh measures, and riots are clearly fading off now. Furthermore, I believe that leftist leaders like Alavanos who made inflammatory speaches are now under widespread criticism and are losing legitimacy.
My guess is that the Christmas snow will find Athens in tranquility, and will help us forget these events pretty soon.

[Elfstone44]

Post 9/11 and ante Athens 2004 why didn't US Agencies or Greece deal with him/her? Perhaps because there is a 20 year statute of limitation for murder in Greece like in some states in the US and no case could stand in court due to lack of evidence and Greece doesn't extradite her citizens easily like the US... especially to countries with death penalty in use. Perhaps he has retired many years ago and making him 'disappear' would cause more problems or he has co-operated with the authorities like some from the '70s or because US wants to leave something in suspension for future use, to put pressure on Greece every now and then and throw dirt at her in "60 minutes". Things happen for a reason and it's not always the worst one.

Might as well name the guy since everyone knows him. Ioannis Serifis. You can find him just about any night in Exarchia. His father died allegedly trying to atone for the sins of the son...and the whole family was involved in leftist murders and the family terrorized Greece (was Balafas his cousin or was that Skiftoulis?). He was 17N; he was ELA. And he did shoot Christos Kassimis, right? (the killing of Kissimis Oct 1977 along with the end of the Mogodisciu highjacking to free Baader, Meinhof and Ennslin were seminal events in Euro-terrorist history at the time). Did Serifis kill Kassimis or didn't he?

He did indeed avoid being prosecuted for killing Welch along with the rest of the 17N thugs because the "statute of limitations" had expired. Statute of limitations for a Murder?? Yep, that's the law in Greece. But many in Greece don't believe political killings are murder...except for those carried out by the right. Why is Serifis still there? By the way, he confessed to shooting Welch, thumbed his nose and walked.

Let Greece answer for that...and the conspiracy theory stuff won't cut the mustard. And there are still unsolved murders of Americans in Greece...sort of sticks in my craw...but guess they'll stay that way...wonder how the families of the Greeks killed by ELA and 17N and by the other lefto-Anarcho groups feel? (I'd assume the Creten code would require retribution...how about karamanlis's son-in-law....will they take revenge?)

By the way, killing an American abroad was not an American crime until after Achille Lauros and the murder of Klinghoffer...and the statute didn't really allow anyone to be charged in America with a crime until about 1995. So Serifis could not be extradicted to America for the murder of Welch...there were no US charges against him because there was no jurisdiction. It was the responsibility of the Greek people and their Greek government to assure the protection of diplomats serving in their country.

[INAT]

So are immigrants playing a large role in the overall violence?

[Vorian]

So are immigrants playing a large role in the overall violence?

Nah, just a few mostly homeless people that used the anarchists as a shield while they looted some stores.

By the way, there have been violent protests in Spain and Italy by anarchists and others, protesting about this issue. I find it weird and somewhat funny and sad at the same time. Poor kid would never imagine it would become a figurehead for leftists around Europe.

[Nickchios]

Might as well name the guy since everyone knows him. Ioannis Serifis. You can find him just about any night in Exarchia. His father died allegedly trying to atone for the sins of the son...and the whole family was involved in leftist murders and the family terrorized Greece (was Balafas his cousin?). He was 17N; he was ELA. He did indeed avoid being prosecuted because of the "statute of limitations" had expired. Statute of limitations for a Murder?? Yep, only in Greece. But many in Greece don't believe political killings are murder...except for those carried out by the right. Why is he still there? Let Greece answer for that...and the conspiracy theory stuff won't cut the mustard.

Ioannis Serifis is out of prison because of serious health problems..... i think.

In another post you mentioned Giotopoulos - the oldest member of 17N - is in prison.

For the situation in our country just one comment.....

It is / was so serious that even in my peaceful and quiet island we had problems with a few idiots young people who broken a few banks.

Nothing to compare with Athens or other cities but for Chios island was too much. A place where everybody knows everybody.

The good is that a lot of people was "patrolling" next to the police the main roads with shops just to prevent further damage.

[Elfstone44]

So are immigrants playing a large role in the overall violence?

Oh, just another observation from an outsider. Take a look at the tomato farms out near Marathon...if you see a Greek picking the fruit...hollar. (imho greek tomatoes are the best in the world....so who picks them?) The immigrants to Greece are very tightly controlled...unless they are Palestinian..and the Palestinians from the Popular Front on (Both George Habbash and Wadi'a Haddad were Greek Orthodox communists) were welcomed with open arms in certain sectors of Greek Politics and protected. Greece is paying the price.

The Palestinians have always played on Greek historical pride. They will say: "Palestinain" = "Philistinies" (think David and Golieth) and the Philistines of the Bible were almost certainly Greek (Hellene). It's a strawman argument...but combined with Left-wing revolutionary ideology, hatred of the west, anti-Isreal sentiment (related to pro-Palestinian sentiment per above), it resonated.

I wouldn't be surprised to see immigrants forced into the "shock troop" category by the Greek Anarchists. Its a normal m/o-set up a stawman or scapegoat and stone him).but usully blessed by payments to the usual suspects. Oh..by the way..Greece has been pretty good in guarding its borders...take care that you are not the next Cristendom European capitol getting scr***d (when the Muslims demanded a Mosque in Paris and Rome while denying the right for a church at Mecca).

[Clearday-TRForce]

What is the real situation in Greece now? riot continuining or weakening?

[achilles]

that one is BS and you know it..

Really? Where were you during the riots? Monday night i was there with a friend who is a photographer, trying to help immigrants who were beaten up badly or even stabbed. I couldnt believe my eyes.

What are you, Xrysh Avgh? Give me a break here with your moronic implication of the "right wing benevolence" and look at the facts. You can always ask wintesses who were there, like myself....

[achilles]

What is the real situation in Greece now? riot continuining or weakening?

Things are relatively calm now, no destruction is taking place, yet there are student demontrations still going on and an increasing number of schools and universities is being forcecully occupied.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Things are relatively calm now, no destruction is taking place, yet there are student demontrations still going on and an increasing number of schools and universities is being forcecully occupied.


May you recover. I hope it will be solved in a short time. Occuping the universities and schools is illegal,must be punished. But high tension can increase in this period.

[4X4Driver]

Watching the events live on one of the Turkish TV channel right now. Seems like it's not as bad as it was recently, but they're still clashing with the police...reporter says that it may worsen tonight (due to the arestation of some student leaders) ?

I hope things will be brought under control soon..I feel for the people who got their propeties destroyed during the events.

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/R12162011.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/P12163100.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/F12160303.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/F12163149.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/P12160605.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/P12161319.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/P12162242.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/P12162422.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/P12162638.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/R121605330.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/R12160729.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/R12162250.jpg
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/F12164522.jpghttp://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan'da%20öfke%20dinmiyor/R12161814.jpg

[Peris]

Might as well name the guy since everyone knows him. Ioannis Serifis. You can find him just about any night in Exarchia. His father died allegedly trying to atone for the sins of the son...and the whole family was involved in leftist murders and the family terrorized Greece (was Balafas his cousin or was that Skiftoulis?). He was 17N; he was ELA. And he did shoot Christos Kassimis, right? (the killing of Kissimis Oct 1977 along with the end of the Mogodisciu highjacking to free Baader, Meinhof and Ennslin were seminal events in Euro-terrorist history at the time). Did Serifis kill Kassimis or didn't he?

He did indeed avoid being prosecuted for killing Welch along with the rest of the 17N thugs because the "statute of limitations" had expired. Statute of limitations for a Murder?? Yep, that's the law in Greece. But many in Greece don't believe political killings are murder...except for those carried out by the right. Why is Serifis still there? By the way, he confessed to shooting Welch, thumbed his nose and walked.

.


it was his cousin Pavlos Serifis who confesed not Ioannis Serifis.

[Fireglow]

Rubber bullets are special equipment; you can't have cops carry them all the time. Those were cops on patrol, armed only with their sidearms.
Besides, the use of rubber bullets is a pretty controversial issue; they can also be lethal under circumstances and should be used with extreme care.

Well, probably. Just saw a video where ISAF was using rubber bullets against rioters and was just wondering why they weren't used in this case. But I guess they're quite special. Haven't heard any other police force using them against rioters.

[TheEvian100]

What are you, Xrysh Avgh? Give me a break here with your moronic implication of the "right wing benevolence" and look at the facts. You can always ask wintesses who were there, like myself....

Waiting for some photos then.

Apparently everyone that apposed the terrorists in Patras was member of Chrysi Avgi. Even if that's true, props to them!

[Mate]

Well, probably. Just saw a video where ISAF was using rubber bullets against rioters and was just wondering why they weren't used in this case. But I guess they're quite special. Haven't heard any other police force using them against rioters.
Romanian Police (under UN adminstration in Kosovo),used rubber bullets in demonstrations of Feb.10.2007,2 people were killed by those bullets.

[tanks_alot]

Greece is running out of tear gas, asking for more from Germany and Israel....



By Dina Kyriakidou and Renee Maltezou

ATHENS (*******) - Students pelted police with firebombs and stones in Athens on Friday in new clashes that first broke out over the police killing of a teenager.

Students, angry at the shooting incident, low wages and unemployment, attacked police outside the parliament building on a seventh day of violence that has shaken the government. Riot police fired teargas in response.

Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis pledged to guarantee the safety of its people and citizens.

"Greece is a safe country," he told a news conference in Brussels

Riots since the December 6 shooting of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos have destroyed hundreds of shops, banks and cars, rattled the conservative government and shaken investor confidence in the 240 billion euro economy ($315 billion) as the global crisis bites.

Even as Karamanlis spoke in Brussels, about 5,000 protesters marched through Athens carrying banners saying: "The state kills" and "The government is guilty of murder."

In bond markets, the spread between Greek debt and German benchmark bonds -- a measure of perceived risk -- reached its widest point this

decade on Friday, at over 2 percentage points.

"We do not expect investors to forget this situation quickly," said David Keeble, head of fixed income research at Calyon Bank.

Greece's debt almost equals its economic output.

Karamanlis said Greece was weathering the credit crunch better than other EU members and sent a message to markets that, despite the crisis, the economy was solid.

"Greece is covering and will (continue) to cover its borrowing needs smoothly," he said.

The killing of Grigoropoulos ignited simmering anger over a series of scandals, unpopular reforms and misfired economic measures as the credit crunch reached Greece.

OUT OF TEARGAS

Police sources say they are running out of teargas after using more than 4,600 capsules in the last week and have urgently contacted Israel and Germany for more stocks.

"Everyone wants this government of murderers to fall. The government in four years has only carried out reforms against students," said Maria Tsoupri, 22. "We don't see a future. We have a future only through struggle."

Karamanlis, whose New Democracy party has a one-seat majority and has seen its popularity ratings dive in recent months, expressed sorrow at the shooting but said the violence that followed was the work of extremists.

Media criticized the government's slow response to the crisis.

"The Bell Tolls For Karamanlis," Ta Nea newspaper said on its front page, while Ethnos said "Government Under Siege; Education Protests Escalate."

Heavy rain helped curtail demonstrations compared to previous days. The protests inspired small protests in some European cities, sowing fears of copy-cat riots elsewhere.

Police said 432 people, including many foreign immigrants, have been detained, with 176 of them charged with violence and looting.

Many Greeks are angry that the policeman charged with murdering the teenager has not expressed remorse. Epaminondas Korkoneas, 37, testified that he fired warning shots in self-defense which ricocheted.

He and his police partner, charged as an accomplice, are being held in jail pending trial, which could take months.

Greeks rushing to work on Friday were keen for their cities to return to normal after the protests, which the Greek Commerce Confederation said caused 200 million euros ($265.3 million) of damage to more than 500 shops in Athens alone.

Several schools and universities remained occupied by students and professors formed a human chain around the main university building to protect it from further damage.

"It will become calm now. But I want the government to clean up, to get the market and the economy moving," said Isidoros Aletas, 21.

(Additional reporting by Daniel Flynn, Michele Kambas and Lefteris Papadimas; Writing by Dina Kyriakidou; Editing by Angus MacSwan)


http://www.*******.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4B91LB20081212?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

[Snoshi]

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan%27da%20%C3%B6fke%20dinmiyor/F12164522.jpg
Why the fk are these fks not getting shot with live ammo??

[KET]

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan%27da%20%C3%B6fke%20dinmiyor/F12164522.jpg
Why the fk are these fks not getting shot with live ammo??

Seriously! WTF is wrong with these animals?

[MichaelF]

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan%27da%20%C3%B6fke%20dinmiyor/F12164522.jpg


I hate to resort to the "I'd like to see them try that in Texas" trope....but at this point, US Police forces (more likely the National Guard and Regular* Army) would be shooting to kill. There is no (zero) difference between throwing a petrol bomb at a police officer and firing a pistol at him. Both require a lethal response.

The Rule of Law (such as suppression of civil insurrection) is more valuable than the lives of actively-murderous criminals.


*-in the case of large urban areas, the POTUS is likely to use his power under the Insurrection Act to deploy Regular troops to support the Guard, as most States do not have sufficient forces to invest a large city. The LA Riots (and New Orleans) are a good example.

[LEGEND]

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/Foto%20Haber/Yunanistan%27da%20%C3%B6fke%20dinmiyor/F12164522.jpg
I hate to resort to the "I'd like to see them try that in Texas" trope....but at this point, US Police forces (more likely the National Guard and Regular* Army) would be shooting to kill. There is no (zero) difference between throwing a petrol bomb at a police officer and firing a pistol at him. Both require a lethal response.

The Rule of Law (such as suppression of civil insurrection) is more valuable than the lives of actively-murderous criminals.


*-in the case of large urban areas, the POTUS is likely to use his power under the Insurrection Act to deploy Regular troops to support the Guard, as most States do not have sufficient forces to invest a large city. The LA Riots (and New Orleans) are a good example.

Something is REALLY FD up in Europe if S#$t like that is allowed to take place without any proper response. And greece is not the only country where this takes place. Throw a petrol bomb at a cop, get a bullet in the head.

[Zeev]

Something is REALLY FD up in Europe if S#$t like that is allowed to take place without any proper response. And greece is not the only country where this takes place. Throw a petrol bomb at a cop, get a bullet in the head.


during the sixties, a lot of BS corrupted the people's minds in europe - especially because of the education institutions like high schools or universities that were and still are leftists of far leftists - and in a latent way, the reject of the traditional values, the laxness toward the criminal or marginal behaviors and the culture of the opposition, and even, of a "justifiable" violence to the state and the police became common ideas in western european societies which the dramatic effects, especially among the youth, can be seen even until today.

[Elfstone44]

It would be exteremely interesting to explore the origin and development of Greek (and European) anarchism. I'd reckon some of the movement grew out of the European leftist terrorist organizations of the 60's, 70's, 80's. And these were influenced by the writings of Jean Paul Satre, Dr. Antoni Negri, Sergio Spazzali and Primo Moroni, Mahir Cayan (the Turk)..."words without deeds are nothing".... I'd love to read "Antiplioforisis" publications, the ELA propaganda vehicle, for clues ("Antiplioforisis" in the 70's and 80's mostly reprinted Italian lefto-anarcho articles from "Contrainformazione" and translated them into Greek - there is a Greek editor of that publication still alive). But there has to be a counter. The State cannot be held hostage by lawless scumbags. At what point do the people say enough?

In Italy, the point was reached after the 1978 killing of Aldo Moro. The Italian public finally turned against the Red Brigades. It was a long fight back involving carrot and stick..and the stick was necessary... But the fight was won.

I'm not sure in Greece a point has ever been reached where the body politic has finally said "enough" and opted to authorize the state to end the seige of lawlessness. (I'm not even sure Greek citizens really like having a "State" at all). I'm not sure the arrest of 17N wasn't really driven simply by fear that the Olympic games might be derailed, rather than the necessity of doing the right thing and stopping the bombs and murders.... Someone please tell me when the Greeks are going to have had enough and ask for the streets to be cleared. Is Exarchia a sanctuary now?

Peris, you're of course right...it was Pavlos Serifis. Sorry for my error...but I think Ioannis (Yannis) Serifis is still guilty of multiple murders and terrorizing Greece for 30 years. And I believe Pavlos ..i.e. that Ioannis and Yiotopouls founded 17N...and Yanni Serifis probably did shoot ELA founder Christos Kissimis..even though he was acquited.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I hate to resort to the "I'd like to see them try that in Texas" trope....but at this point, US Police forces (more likely the National Guard and Regular* Army) would be shooting to kill. There is no (zero) difference between throwing a petrol bomb at a police officer and firing a pistol at him. Both require a lethal response.

The Rule of Law (such as suppression of civil insurrection) is more valuable than the lives of actively-murderous criminals.


*-in the case of large urban areas, the POTUS is likely to use his power under the Insurrection Act to deploy Regular troops to support the Guard, as most States do not have sufficient forces to invest a large city. The LA Riots (and New Orleans) are a good example.



They must be urged by the high rank officers not to shot someone even in bad positions due to not increasing tension more. Killing another youth should be lethal mistake.

[Horse Thief]

Exactly. Doing it once sparked all this off. Kill a few more, and chances are this will get much worse.

[MichaelF]

Exactly. Doing it once sparked all this off. Kill a few more, and chances are this will get much worse.

You're right. They could start throwing petrol bombs at the police....

[Clearday-TRForce]

You're right. They could start throwing petrol bombs at the police....

your best possible solution to kill more? no way...it can be great chaos than now. Social groups and government have to create common sense immediately and stop these crap...

[MichaelF]

your best possible solution to kill more? no way...it can be great chaos than now.

Rule of Law. Throwing petrol bombs at police (or anyone else) is a no-no.

So, yes, killing people (more specifically, killing the people who are trying to kill other people) until they stop (or you've killed most of the people who want to toss petrol bombs) is a logical response. That's why cops have guns (even the ones who aren't armed normally). To suppress violent criminals and preserve the peace (defined as physical safety and ability to conduct business for the majority of the population).

If criminals are allowed to exercise a monopoly of force in a confrontation with the State....that's the whole ball game and you might as well move somewhere else with nicer criminals.

"Best possible solution" is a misnomer. You've (well, they've) got insurrection on the streets of their capital city. "Best" is not in the picture. The State must assert itself, at the expense of the criminals, to preserve the public good and impose peace.

Avoiding "confrontation" (IOW, riot suppression) means a win for the people chucking petrol bombs. I don't think anyone is going to benefit from having them in charge of the streets.

[Lokos]

I agree with MichaelF.

These people need to see a forceful, full-blooded and, most importantly, decisive response. The greater the freedom of action perceived by the mob, the worse the anarchical upsurge will get. Go in batons swinging, break a few bones, target the ringleaders and shut this thing down.

L.

[TheEvian100]

They must be urged by the high rank officers not to shot someone even in bad positions due to not increasing tension more. Killing another youth should be lethal mistake.

Lethal mistake? You better make a better choice of words, it wouldn't be mistake in the first place.

Petrol Bomb = Lethal Weapon

I think they need to start using plastic bullets en-mass against anyone throwing petrol bombs, stones, or anything else, period. They should not stop until nobody is throwing anything at the Police.

[AK-Lover]

Well in that case it seems to me that a good proportion of the population and not just these crazy kids throwing Molotov, have something that they dislike against the police. I haven't heard any mass calls or peaceful demonstrations by average Greek citizens against the violence. Maybe the Greek government should re-examine it's police force and their stance. I know in Serbia for example that the police are very unpopular amongst the youth whether they be left-wingers or neo-nazis or just average kids on the block, they all hate the police.

[KET]

Well in that case it seems to me that a good proportion of the population and not just these crazy kids throwing Molotov, have something that they dislike against the police. I haven't heard any mass calls or peaceful demonstrations by average Greek citizens against the violence. Maybe the Greek government should re-examine it's police force and their stance. I know in Serbia for example that the police are very unpopular amongst the youth whether they be left-wingers or neo-nazis or just average kids on the block, they all hate the police.
I guess it's a Balkan thing. Same thing in Albania. Police brutality is not uncommon and cops often abuse their power. They think they're above the law. Once they get you inside their blue vans, you're done. Instead of catching criminals they beat up teenagers. The situation has improved lately but not enough.

[gazell]

Something is REALLY FD up in Europe if S#$t like that is allowed to take place without any proper response. And greece is not the only country where this takes place. Throw a petrol bomb at a cop, get a bullet in the head.

I don't know if generalisations like that are correct or how much. 2006 in Hungary went down as a riot, but then thousands of people were demanding resignation of PM and government, for it had lied to the people and won the elections on those lies. Fair enough, seems to me, if impeachment does not happen in civilised circumstance.

Hope we are not saying that revolution is only OK if it's against a red gov.

Riot police was used to no end though, at least it prevented further, more serious, lasting unrest and also scary thought was as someone said in the Greek situation, who else would take over.

[achilles]

so you were doing your civic duty by caring for the looters , immigrants or not .

I found myself in a place where immigrants were beaten up and some of them even stabbed and i thought it would be a good idea to help a couple of those out, by, at least, calling an ambulance. They were not looters. "caring for the looters" is just another idiotic conclusion of yours, which creates false impression of who i am and what i stand for.


did you also set some cops ablaze
No. I never would as i have nothing against state security forces. I do have, though, serious problems digesting macho attitudes of individuals like the cop who pulled the trigger. Unlike you i suppose....



you and I know if that kid was Xrysh Avgh , we wouldn't be arguing in this forum. there would be no news since a right wingers life is not as important for "politically correct " people like you.
So what's next , a cops blood on the street to re enforce your "correctness" ?

I dont know where this utter BS stems from. Must be a combination of vivid imagination and poor comprehension skills. In my world, a human life is a human life and its loss is equally important and unfortunate. There is no "left" or "right" distinction, especially when we're talking about peoples' lives. I put Xrhsy Avgh and those self-proclaimed "anarchists" into the same basket. Extremists can hardly make any positive difference. In fact, they never have.

The police is not even the issue here. The problem is deep rooted and has a clear social, political and economic character. A kid was executed 20 years ago, another one had the same fate a few days ago, and so on. The goal is to minimize losses, since we cannot avoid them. There will always be hot-headed "Rambos" ready to pull the trigger on kids and grandmas, this is part of human nature. Its up to proper policies and procedures, however, to scrutinize who carries a gun and for what reason.

I support the work of the police and hate the fact that it is an institution that has been so unjustifiably crippled since 1974. I am looking forward to a fair and just police force who will be able to effectively protect peoples' lives and properties while being respectfull to all citizens. Sadly, the current police force is largely inneffective in doing both.

In other words, i am not one of those who believe that the police is brutal. The police in Greece is actually soft and practically not allowed to enforce.....the law.


you are laughable..

Indeed you are, for drawing fast conclusions on where i stand politically and ideologically.


PS: The photos are not mine. The owner is in the process of deciding whether they will be used journalistically and until then no disclosure is possible. I dont even have them for obvious reasons. I'll get back to you when/if they become available.

[LaoSexMachine]

Greek protesters call for more action



Story Highlights
Greek students have called for daily protests starting Monday
Violence sparked by police shooting of 15-year-old boy now in 15th day
Protests have become outlet for simmering resentment of government

ATHENS, Greece (CNN) -- Greek students have called for daily protests starting Monday, 10 days after the police killing of a 15-year-old boy in Athens sparked demonstrations that have thrown the country into turmoil.
Monday's sit-in is set to take place in front of the country's national police headquarters, with students urging similar demonstrations in front of police precincts across the country.
They have called for roads to be blocked on Tuesday, a demonstration Wednesday outside the courthouse where the police involved in the shooting will be testifying, and a nationwide protest on Thursday.
Authorities are bracing for potential violence following more than a week of riots which have become an outlet for simmering anger about the economy, education and jobs.
The unrest is threatening the government's hold on power, with some opposition groups calling for fresh elections. Stores and international businesses have been attacked, and at least 280 people have been detained by police. Of that total, 176 were arrested, 130 of them over looting.
There was a rash of demonstrations Saturday, the one-week anniversary of the death of Alexis Grigoropolous, including attacks on a police station in the Athens (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Athens) district of Exarchaia and on the environment ministry building by angry protesters with stones and Molotov cocktails.
The main demonstration Saturday was a peaceful candlelit vigil in front of Parliament on Syntagma Square in the capital.
Several thousand people turned out for the demonstration, many of them students but including people of all ages and from all walks of life. Demonstrators held a similar sit-in in the northern city of Thessaloniki.
Some stayed for an all-night sit-in.
There was relative calms in the streets and across the country as Sunday dawned.
The two officers involved in the December 6 shooting were remanded into custody Wednesday pending trial. One is charged with premeditated manslaughter and the other with acting as an accomplice.
Journalist Anthee Carassava contributed to this report.

http://images.clickability.com/pti/spacer.gif

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/12/14/greece.riots/index.html

[[MakkabI]]

Greece asks Israel for teargas grenades



Ongoing riots throughout country, depletion of teargas inventory prompt Athens police to ask Israel for urgent delivery of crowd dispersal means Itamar Eichner Published: 12.14.08, 14:31 / Israel News (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3082,00.html)


P{margin:0;} UL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 16; padding-right:0;} OL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 32; padding-right:0;} H3.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;margin-top:0px;} P.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;}</B>Greek authorities contacted Israel (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/unescape(this.href)) this weekend with an urgent request for teargas grenades to be used against the wave of riots that broke out in the country last week, Athens police reported on Sunday.

A similar request was made to other countries, including Germany. It was reported that the country's entire teargas grenade inventory of 4,600 units was depleted.


This is not the first time the Greeks turn to Israel in an emergency. Last year Israel sent 55 firefighters to aid the Greeks in putting out the massive wildfires that spread out through the country.


A few days ago the Greek president presented the Israeli firefighters with merit awards in a ceremony held at the Greek Embassy in Israel.


Sources from the Israeli Embassy in Greece said the request for teargas grenades had not yet been made, but that it was possible the Greeks turned to private Israeli companies.


http://i.total-media.net/yn/img/article_add_corner_top.gifAdvertisement http://i.total-media.net/yn/ads/bezecom/23.11.08/mapin_300x250_en.gif (http://a.total-media.net/event.ng/Type=click&FlightID=91719&AdID=113485&TargetID=16463&ASeg=&AMod=&Segments=128,983,1027,1035,1071,1082,1227,3736,3857,3858,4027,4050,6017,6525,7104,7383,8622,9480,9560,9608,10736,10980,11140,12095&Targets=14848,6921,12075,16463&Values=31,43,51,63,77,80,100,110,150,196,235,240,265,469,497,766,771,779,840,862,938,6868,7658,9224,9326,9329,9337,11631,11839,13331,14582,16078,21606,22335,25335,25798,25859,25861,25895,26074,28927,29259,29625,30443,31121&RawValues=USERID%2Cd4b38b9e-24789-1210860557-1&Redirect=http://www.bezecom.com/lp/IsraeliPhoneNumber.aspx?lang=en&af=000.0002_ynews_mapin_300x250_en)http://i.total-media.net/yn/img/article_add_corner_bottom.gif



Israeli sources said the request was understandable due to the geographical proximity of the two countries and the fact that the Greek government is aware of Israel's large stock of crowd dispersal means including teargas grenades.














http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3638222,00.html

[Zeev]

;3764041']Greece asks Israel for teargas grenades



Ongoing riots throughout country, depletion of teargas inventory prompt Athens police to ask Israel for urgent delivery of crowd dispersal means Itamar Eichner Published: 12.14.08, 14:31 / Israel News (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3082,00.html)


P{margin:0;} UL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 16; padding-right:0;} OL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 32; padding-right:0;} H3.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;margin-top:0px;} P.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;}</B>Greek authorities contacted Israel (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/unescape(this.href)) this weekend with an urgent request for teargas grenades to be used against the wave of riots that broke out in the country last week, Athens police reported on Sunday.

A similar request was made to other countries, including Germany. It was reported that the country's entire teargas grenade inventory of 4,600 units was depleted.


This is not the first time the Greeks turn to Israel in an emergency. Last year Israel sent 55 firefighters to aid the Greeks in putting out the massive wildfires that spread out through the country.


A few days ago the Greek president presented the Israeli firefighters with merit awards in a ceremony held at the Greek Embassy in Israel.


Sources from the Israeli Embassy in Greece said the request for teargas grenades had not yet been made, but that it was possible the Greeks turned to private Israeli companies.


http://i.total-media.net/yn/img/article_add_corner_top.gifAdvertisement http://i.total-media.net/yn/ads/bezecom/23.11.08/mapin_300x250_en.gif (http://a.total-media.net/event.ng/Type=click&FlightID=91719&AdID=113485&TargetID=16463&ASeg=&AMod=&Segments=128,983,1027,1035,1071,1082,1227,3736,3857,3858,4027,4050,6017,6525,7104,7383,8622,9480,9560,9608,10736,10980,11140,12095&Targets=14848,6921,12075,16463&Values=31,43,51,63,77,80,100,110,150,196,235,240,265,469,497,766,771,779,840,862,938,6868,7658,9224,9326,9329,9337,11631,11839,13331,14582,16078,21606,22335,25335,25798,25859,25861,25895,26074,28927,29259,29625,30443,31121&RawValues=USERID%2Cd4b38b9e-24789-1210860557-1&Redirect=http://www.bezecom.com/lp/IsraeliPhoneNumber.aspx?lang=en&af=000.0002_ynews_mapin_300x250_en)http://i.total-media.net/yn/img/article_add_corner_bottom.gif



Israeli sources said the request was understandable due to the geographical proximity of the two countries and the fact that the Greek government is aware of Israel's large stock of crowd dispersal means including teargas grenades.














http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3638222,00.html

good news, they rather provide them rubber bullets, but gas is better than nothing. I hope it will cause deadly respiratory troubles to these anarchist scum.

[Mynameischarlie]

Some members are getting too much into the left vs. right wing discusion.
Greece's "arsenal" is quite impressive:
- high youth unemployment ( "young angry men")
- delayed social/administrive reforms
- losing competitivness compared to other nations
- ruling elite (both left & right wingers) have no credibilty due too many scandals

I don't see how this conflict can be solve in short term. Hopefully the Greek police can surpress the riots.

[achilles]

again you are evading the question , did you witness Xrysi Avgi members stab the "immigrants" ? how do you explain half of the arrested looters were "immigrants " ?

I'm evading no question. I did not witness any Xrysh Avgh member stabbing any immigrant, or any other individual doing so, but i witnessed stabbed immigrants, 2 maybe 3. I also witnessed shaved-headed lads, kicking the hell out of non-Greeks, as well as "everyday" people doint the same to people whose apparent crime was their non-Greekness. At some point, two girls show up who appeared to be enjoying what was going on. I asked one of them WTF is all this, who are those guys? She told me that some of them are just people from the neighborhood who are way too pissed off with the immigrants, some are Xrysh Avgh (her boyfriend included - she was proud enough to tell me!) among other right-wing extremists.

My assertion was not that Xrysh Avgh was solely behind all this, but that some of its members participated in actions perceived as "self-defense against looters". We all know the troubles Xrysh Avgh has with immigrants in general, this is nothing new. Apparently, local residents has issues with the immigrants as well. I am telling you again, those were not looters.

What do you think of Xrysh Avgh, by the way?





You are questioning the cops action and character , that's for the prosecutor and the justice system to determine whether his action was unlawful , lawful , or just a freak accident. For you to do it just like the shameful Greek media is obstruction of justice .

Numerous eye-witnesses who appear to be credible, a cell phone video, the cop's attitude and past behavioral pattern (according to his colleagues' testimonies that came up in the papers- his knickname was "Rambo" and he was looking forward to stirring up **** with anarchists in Exarcheia, unlike others), plus some common sense (Ricochet??? Give me a break here...) are convincing enough for me. I am not inclined to put blame on any cop, trust me on this, i respect the police although there is immense room for improvement.

I dont know to what extent your trust the Greek judicial system on that. The same system that freed from all charges the cop who shot another kid in 1985, because it was a case of him being "εν βρασμώ ψυχής". The verdict was released in 1990. The cop spend only 2.5 years in jail. The judicial system is inclined to support a cop,dont you think?



In my book, I would not hesitate to put a "kid" down if my life was in danger , whether he is holding a gun or a molotov bomb.

If the kid points a gun at you i'm with you. Other cases need to be treated with extreme caution.



Ultimately , this is a result of a disintegrated and rotten Greek society.

More like a disintegrated and rotten political system, comprised basically by a bunch of incompetent crooks and demagogues

[tanks_alot]

send some rubber bullets and pepper spray.

The Skunk (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1018282.html) seems much more effective for the situation. p-)

[Elfstone44]

Some members are getting too much into the left vs. right wing discusion.
Greece's "arsenal" is quite impressive:
- high youth unemployment ( "young angry men")
- delayed social/administrive reforms
- losing competitivness compared to other nations
- ruling elite (both left & right wingers) have no credibilty due too many scandals

I don't see how this conflict can be solve in short term. Hopefully the Greek police can surpress the riots.

Good evening Charlie; Didn't know you were an expert on Greek anarchism and leftwing terror orgainzations. However, In the case of Greece Left-Right characterizations are apt when discussing this society.

Let me offer you a bit of history at least to support this affirmation. After the Fall of the Junta, the Socialist, Trotskiyite, and Anarchist organizations grew up together and shared members. As one example, in the early 1980's for instance, one of the most prominent of Greek Anarchists was Theodoros Pisimisis. And he was also allegedly directly associated with several left-wing radical terrorist organizations including one which was involved in a number of murders. He was suspected of being a 17N auxillary. And it continues to this day. Pisimisis organized a couple of Anarchist large-scale meetings, which included members of ELA and the spinoffs, in the early 1980's to try to get all to agree to a common agenda...of course, being Anarchists they degenerated into dope smoking and fist fights. But the people who participated are known as "the usual suspects in Greece" (for any ideological bomb or crime) and they are anarchist and left-wing anti-state radicals.

Even a cursory study of the origin of Anarchism and of left-wing terror in Greece will lead an educated observer back to the same group of people and the same events, no matter what a Viet Cong sympathizer says to the contrary. And those people were and are left-wing and violent....if you probed you'd likely find their fathers and grandfathers were communists... Politics is very much a family thing.

I'll offer one more observation. About 1979-80 a right-wing terror organization called "9 August" (or something like that) set off a few bombs in Athens. The Greek police ran them down in 3 weeks and shot them down in the streets. Years later when asked why, if they could do that, they couldn't handle the Anarchists, ELA, Revolutionary Solidarity, 17N, and other left-wing terrorist groups raising havoc in Athens...their reply was brutally blunt..."those organizations are left-wing groups; we can't mess with them."

[Mynameischarlie]

Good evening Charlie; Didn't know you were an expert on Greek anarchism and leftwing terror orgainzations. In the case of Greece Left-Right characterizations are apt when discussing society.

Let me offer you a bit of history at least to support this affirmation. After the Fall of the Junta, the Socialist, Trotskiyite, and Anarchist organizations grew up together and shared members. As one example, in the early 1980's for instance, one of the most prominent of Greek Anarchists was Theodoros Pisimisis. And he was also allegedly directly associated with several left-wing radical terrorist organizations including one which was involved in a number of murders. He was suspected of being a 17N auxillary. And it continues to this day. Pisimisis organized a couple of Anarchist large-scale meetings, which included members of ELA and the spinoffs, in the early 1980's to try to get all to agree to a common agenda...of course, being Anarchists they degenerated into dope smoking and fist fights. But the people who participated are known as "the usual suspects in Greece" (for any ideological bomb or crime) and they are anarchist and left-wing anti-state radicals.

Even a cursory study of the origin of Anarchism and of left-wing terror in Greece will lead an educated observer back to the same group of people and the same events, no matter what a Viet Cong sympathizer says to the contrary. And those people were and are left-wing and violent....if you probed you'd likely find their fathers and grandfathers were communists... Politics is very much a family thing.

I'll offer one more observation. About 1979-80 a right-wing terror organization called "9 August" (or something like that) set off a few bombs in Athens. The Greek police ran them down in 3 weeks and shot them down in the streets. Years later when asked why, if they could do that, they couldn't handle the Anarchists, ELA, Revolutionary Solidarity, 17N, and other left-wing terrorist groups raising havoc in Athens...their reply was brutally blunt..."those organizations are left-wing groups; we can't mess with them."

Man, why are you taking "our disput" from the VC thread over to this one?

I was just pointing out you & other members here focus too much on the political reasons for the recent riots in Greece. You see the Anarchist/Left-wingers as the key behind the riots - OK!
But what's your opinion towards the fact that a high percentage of young Greek are unemployed ???
What's your opinion towards thew fact the majority of the Greek elites have no credibility due scandals in the few last years ???

Elfstone44, this an online discusion forum - no need to take things personally!

EDIT: I never claimed to be an expert towards Greece-based terror organizations! Anyway thanks for your infos on them. In the end we are both only outsiders. Better let the Greek members here have the last word.

[the_13th_redneck]

This is what happens when you don't discipline your kids.

[achilles]

This is what happens when you don't discipline your kids.

It's way way more complicated than that.

[Elfstone44]

University in Athens, epicenter of riots, is drawing a potent mix of radicals

By Rachel Donadio
Published: December 15, 2008


ATHENS: Early Saturday morning inside the gates of Athens Polytechnic, a dozen groggy young people in hooded sweatshirts slumped on folding chairs around a smoky fire. Others trickled in, holding cups of coffee. Gypsy children scampered around with wheelbarrows, collecting empty beer bottles. One child lit a cigarette.

But the young people were not recovering from a long night of drinking or studying. They were preparing for revolution.

Many of the violent protests that have rocked Athens in recent days, since a 15-year-old was killed by a police bullet on Dec. 6, have taken place in and around the school, driven by a group of anarchists who have often occupied the buildings here.

Come sundown on many nights, the Polytechnic, three graffiti-covered neoclassical buildings set amid pine trees, became an apocalyptic scene. Garbage fires burned in its front courtyard. On nearby streets, youths throwing gasoline bombs and rocks clashed with riot police officers armed with tear gas. The hulks of burned-out cars lay like carcasses in the streets.

Someone spray-painted "Don't blame us, the rocks ricocheted" on a wall — a reference to a statement by the lawyer for the policeman who killed the teenager, who said the bullet did not hit the boy directly.

The National Technical University of Athens, as the Polytechnic is officially called, is one of Greece's leading universities, training engineers, architects and scientists since 1836. It moved its main campus outside the city center in the 1980s, leaving its downtown buildings, which now house just the architecture and engineering departments and an auditorium, largely to the whims of protest groups.

The university administration has tended to view the demonstrators as uninvited houseguests who overstayed their welcome so long ago that they have become fixtures.

But these protests have been different. "In former times, a couple of years ago, there were only students protesting," said Konstantinos Moutzouris, the rector of the Polytechnic. "This time there are all kinds of groups — this is difficult to control."

Conversations with those inside the Polytechnic revealed a mix of students, older anarchists and immigrants protesting everything from police brutality to globalization to American imperialism. Some are simply thrill-seekers along for the ride. Moutzouris estimated that there were 50 protesters taking refuge inside the gates, joined by hundreds of others each evening.

Under an asylum law instituted after the police crushed a student rebellion at the Polytechnic against the military junta in 1973, the Greek police are not allowed on universities' property unless requested by administrators.

Tensions between the police and protesters are so high that Moutzouris said asking the police to intervene would cause even more disorder. "We're not in the mood of inviting them," he said. "I think we would have damages and even some people hurt."

He said the architecture and engineering faculty planned to meet with protesters Monday to urge them to leave.

Greece has endured a steady level of political violence for decades. Starting in the mid-1970s, the terrorist group November 17 — named for the date of the 1973 Polytechnic crackdown — killed at least 23 people in several attacks until the Greek authorities largely dismantled it before the 2004 Athens Olympics.

Last year, another group fired a rocket-propelled grenade at the United States Embassy here, causing damage but no injuries.

Adding to the tensions, the police are seen here as both overly aggressive and disconcertingly passive. Though the latest violence was sparked by a police bullet, the government told the police not to use force to tamp down the protests, to avoid further mayhem. The cost of the ensuing riots is estimated at $1.3 billion nationwide.

That the authorities have not identified and arrested the protest ringleaders also seems a question of political will.

Outside the university gates on Saturday morning, merchants were sweeping up broken glass from their vandalized shops. Asked what the stores and their owners had to do with the death of the teenager, one black-clad young woman at the university who declined to give her name said they represented "the corporate machine."

Protesters have said that they will continue to demonstrate until the officer charged with killing the teenager, Alexandros Grigoropoulos, is tried and jailed.

The young woman said the anarchists held "collective meetings" in the university auditorium. They also organize through text-message chains and on Web sites like indymedia.org.

Greek authorities have insisted that the violence has been driven by a radical handful, whom they refer to as "the known unknown."

That term is "nonsense," said Dimitris Liberopoulous, 44, a freelance book editor and anarchist sympathizer who discussed the protest movement over coffee in Exarchia, the neighborhood surrounding the university. "It's a game of semiotics."

He said that the authorities did not know who the protesters were and did not understand their frustration at class division, the poor economy, a broken education system and a corrupt government.

It is unclear whether the anarchists have ties with terrorist groups. But security experts fear that terrorists might see the new unrest as fertile ground for attacks. They also worry that the anarchists themselves might up the ante.

Though Athens was largely calm on Sunday, more protests are expected this week.

"There's a proverb," Liberopoulous said, "that a civil war never ends."

[muttbutt]

The young woman said the anarchists held "collective meetings"Surely an oxymoron.

[Jobu]

Why does Greece even have a police force if they are not allowed to do their jobs?

[KET]

The motto in Greece is work less, demand more , party hard and don't give a s***t about nothing and nobody but yourself.
Doesn't everyone everywhere have this motto?

[Clearday-TRForce]

Why does Greece even have a police force if they are not allowed to do their jobs?


what is your proposal here? killing or give some serious wounds to protesters enough for you to understand they they have done their job rightly?

sometimes, doing nothing is the best way to keep calm the environment.

[b0sco]

Yeah, we all see how calm the situation is.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Yeah, we all see how calm the situation is.

surely, it is more calm when you compare it to 1 week ago.

[achilles]

surely, it is more calm when you compare it to 1 week ago.

There are student demonstrations going on, along with several schools and universities being occupied. No looting, no fire-setting, no violence like last week but we need to be patient until things calm down for good.

[TheEvian100]

;3764041']Greece asks Israel for teargas grenades

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3638222,00.html

Good news, we need to strengthen our relationship with Israel.

Maybe we should ask for some israeli police units or Magav anti-riot teams too.

[Clearday-TRForce]

There are student demonstrations going on, along with several schools and universities being occupied. No looting, no fire-setting, no violence like last week but we need to be patient until things calm down for good.


The more important thing is to estimate what will happen after calm down? occuping the instituties should be punished but?

[Elfstone44]

Since the instigators of anarchist violence are well known in Athens, I was going to search the web and post their names here so that the "known-unknown" aka "the usual suspects" would no longer be unknown.

But here is an entry in Wikipedia on anarchism in Greece....which pretty much confirms the previous assertion above that the Greek anarchists came out of the same anti-junta pool as extreme left-wing Greek terrorists. Its interesting that the article claims Tsoutsouvis was an "anarchist." How about about a better descriiption - "robbing, murdering, thieving, radical left-wing, indigent, street thug."

What seems clear, however, is that just waiting for snow on Mt. Parnitha and in Kifisias to cool things off won't solve the anarcho-problem in Athens....it looks to be endemic. It looks to me (I've observed the culture in Exharchia for say 17 years) to be a culture within a culture, a life-style, with its own codes and language. I wonder if Athens ultimately is facing a scaled back version of Colombia's endemic left-right war?

1960s to 1995

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Anthos.jpg/280px-Anthos.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anthos.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anthos.jpg)
An anarchist demonstration in Athens in 1990, against a court's decision that the policeman who shot and killed M. Kaltezas was innocent.


The Greek anarchist movement really started during the Greek military junta of 1967-1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967-1974). The first Greek anarchists after the war (1973) were among the main actors in the student movement against the junta.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-3)
The Greek movement really started at this time and it carried both the pros and cons of this. Greek anarchists in the light of May of '68 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_68) and the Italian autonomist movement opposed Anarcho-syndicalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism) in favor of direct class war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_war). Their influences were the classics (Bakunin, Kropotkin) but also the Situationist Internationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Situationist_Internationale&action=edit&redlink=1) and autonomist Marxism.
The Greek anarchist and autonomist movement strengthened in the late '70s, when people from ultra-left parties (who were strong in the mid-'70s) left their political parties or groups and found themselves on the side of autonomists and anarchists.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-4)
The first wave of Greek anarchists were disappointed, and the great majority of them left the movement slowly, when the first socialist government was established in 1980 and with the alliance from the communist party almost ended "the social war" of the '70s. A new wave of young anarchists even more aggressive and violence-oriented than the first generation emerged in the mid-80s. Some reporters even claim that some of this generation of anarchists later became recruits of terrorist groups such as the Revolutionary Organization 17 November (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-5)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Poulane.jpg/240px-Poulane.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poulane.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poulane.jpg)
A poster released in 1982.The main text says "Cops sell Heroin". It is signed simply "Anarchists."


In the years 1985-1986 almost daily demos and clashes took place.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-6) Α 15 year old boy Michalis Kaltezas (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michalis_Kaltezas&action=edit&redlink=1) (1970-1985) and Anarchist Christos Tsoutsouvis (?-1985) were killed during this period and their killings caused huge riots in Athens and Thessaloníki. The murder of a policeman in Thessaloníki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalon%C3%ADki) and the occupation of Chemistry University in Athens made the oppression against anarchists almost unbearable, but an anarchist movement existed, and managed to stage demonstrations with thousands of participants in Athens. The attack by an anarchist demonstration on the hotel "Caravel" hosting a far-right conference (among them was Jean-Marie Le Pen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen)) was also a peak in anarchist movement of '80s.

The 80s generation faded slowly, and a new wave of anarchists came in the heat of the 1991 high school student uprising. The '91 student movement was the most radical movement ever in Greece, involving about 1500 school occupations and demonstrations of hundreds of thousands of participants. The murder of the ultra-left teacher Nikos Temponeras by members of the ruling right-wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing) New Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democracy_%28Greece%29) party, caused an almost general insurgency in all main Greek towns, with a 25,000 strong demonstration in Patra where Temponeras was killed, which was followed by the burning of the police station and the town hall. The same day in Athens four people were killed by a fire which occurred during a massive demonstration. The civil unrest stopped only after the Minister of Education resigned.
The anarchist movement of the '90s faced complete disaster during the anarchist occupation of the Polytechnic University in 1995. About 3,000 people occupied Polytechnic, when the police got in and arrested all 501 anarchists left in the university. The Polytechnic was almost completely destroyed during the anarchist occupation. The role of the media was a catalyst, ordering the police to arrest and hit "these hooligans, the known-unknown thugs" (the common name of anarchists used by the media). But instead of strengthening the anarchist movement, as oppression did before, it tore it apart.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism_in_Greece&action=edit&section=7)] 17th of November

17th of November is an annual school and universities holiday in Greece celebrating the Athens Polytechnic Uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Polytechnic_Uprising). Almost every year massive demonstrations take place in the large urban centers and almost every year riots occur. Anarchists have been fiercely criticized for these riots.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism_in_Greece&action=edit&section=8)] 1970s

The first elections after the military Junta were planned for the 17th of November 1974 and the celebrations were to be postponed to the 24th of November. Many people were opposed to that (including leftists and the communist party). In the end two demonstrations occurred on the 15th and the other as planned on the 24th. on the 15th a text was distributed to the people arriving at the demonstration, which among other things says :"Comrades paid slaves, the completion of a year since the riot of November is sealed by the zenith of anti-revolution, elections... Comrades, the riot of November made the owners and the aspiring owners of authority to shake. Comrades, all together the lackeys of state and capital ask us to be productive robots, pathetic receptors of our lives...", and it was signed by the "anarchist team Extremists ". The demonstration committee said that their positions were different from the text and asked the people who were present to isolate the anarchists.
1976 saw the first organized anarchist bloc take part in the demonstrations.
In 1978, the assembly for the demonstration was in the Polytechnic. There police had a very strong presence and before the demonstration started minor conflicts occurred. EFEE (the national student union (of) Greece) declared that the demonstration was to be canceled due to the large police force. Despite the declaration, the demonstration and clashes with the police occurred.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism_in_Greece&action=edit&section=9)] 1980s

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/Cops-18-85.jpg/150px-Cops-18-85.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cops-18-85.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cops-18-85.jpg)
Police raid the Polytechnics school on 18 November 1985.


In 1980 the situation was very charged due to the murder of the assistant commander of the riot squad by the Revolutionary Organization 17 November (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November). The demonstration wasn't allowed to take place, even though a demonstration happened on the 16th and anarchists took part, but not from the start of the demonstration.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-7)
Banks, shops and public buildings were attacked and some destroyed and roadblocks were made. The police attacked back. The conclusion was several injured and two dead, I. Koumis and S. Kanelopoulou. The next day another demonstration occurred.
In 1982, anarchists burned Greek flags and the wreaths laid in the memorial of the riot by politicians. Some clashes occurred.
On November 16th 1983, the offices of Rizospastis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rizospastis) were destroyed, the main motto was : "The Party kills Polish workers". After the demonstration on the 17th the offices of the Technical Chamber were attacked.
On November 17th 1984, a concert against state repression was planned but was prohibited at the last moment by the Polytechnics Rector. Massive riots started outside the Polytechnics. A text that was published after the event read: "This gave food to the rags and those who think that the university is their kingdom. In us depends if they will taste this food for a life and then burp happily or if they will vomit it and then crawl in their dirty anti-orgasmic party offices."
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/49/Molotov-17-85.jpg/150px-Molotov-17-85.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Molotov-17-85.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Molotov-17-85.jpg)
Clashes with the police in 17-11-1985.


In 1985 clashes with the police could be witnessed from the beginning, something which could be explained the following events: Few anarchists took part in this year's demonstration but when it ended, they broke into the offices of South Africa Airlines. The clashes continued in Exarheia Square and M. Kaltezas was killed. The anarchists squatted in polytechnics school and the clashes continued until the police broke in. The same day the school was re-squatted and Stournari street was blocked. Demonstrations and further clashes occurred with the police but in the night everything stopped. Leftists criticized the clashes and said that if the anarchists didn't riot more people would demonstrate for the death of M. Kaltezas.
Probably the most massive anarchist demonstration for the 17th of November occurred in 1986.
In 1987, when officials tried to place wreaths in the memorial of the riot, clashes started which escalated into a riot that lasted three days. Clashes also occurred outside of the U.S. embassy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/17-11-1989.jpg/120px-17-11-1989.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:17-11-1989.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:17-11-1989.jpg)
From the clashes in 1989.


The anarchist block of 1989 was probably the smallest for a decade and after an attack by the police in the middle of the demonstration it disbanded after some small clashes.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism_in_Greece&action=edit&section=10)] 1990s

In 1990, anarchists gathered at the rear of the demonstration and attacked banks and public buildings. Minor clashes with the police occurred as well.
In the midday of November 16th 1992 the Ministry of Labor was attacked with Molotov cocktails and in the evening a demonstration for solidarity to the imprisoned N. Maziotis, N. Skiftoulis, K. Mazokopos and B. Tsouris who was hunger striking. It ended in the polytechnics where clashes with the police start. On the 17th the office of New Democracy and two bus booking offices were burned. 26 people were arrested.
In 1993, during 15, 16 and 17 of November anarchists handed out leaflets, made banners for the occasion and wrote with spray paint on the walls around the Polytechnics school. On the 16th about 30 people attacked a police bus on Kanigos Square and two Mercedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz) cars parked outside the General Accountant Building with Molotov cocktails. On the 17th at the same time officials were giving their speeches for the holiday, a group attacked the riot police stationed outside the polytechnics with Molotovs, rocks and flares. Later that evening a van of the T.V. station Skai was destroyed.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism_in_Greece&action=edit&section=11)] Imprisoned Greek anarchists



G. Dimitrakis, arrested in Athens on 16 November, 2007 for armed bank robbery. Sentenced to 35 years in prison.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-8)
Ch. Tonidou, arrested inside Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle_University_of_Thessaloniki) on 8 September, 2007, following conflicts between anarchists and police forces. Has been released awaiting trial.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-9)
M. Tsourapas, H. Kontorebithakis, arrested in Athens on 5 June, 2006 for trying to burn a car of the municipal police. Both remain in prison awaiting trial.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-10)
Up to date Greek activist prisoner list: www.geocities.com/anarcores/krat (http://www.geocities.com/anarcores/krat)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Greece#cite_note-11)

[AK-Lover]

Doesn't everyone everywhere have this motto?

LOL, thats what I was thinking.

[LaoSexMachine]

How did y'all, Greeks, let it get this far?

[Elfstone44]

Ezekiel, This has been going on for a long long time. The bombs, rockets, murders, arson, kill for hire, car theft. And its hit Americans time and time again.
-- 23 Dec 75 - murder of American CIA chief Richard Welch
-- 12 Nov 83 - murder of American naval attache Nordeen and his driver
-- 29 Jun 87 - murder of American naval attache Tsantes in a massive bomb which blew his car over a wall.
-- 16 Mar 91 - bombing murder of a black US sergeant Stewert, the only attack made in Europe in support of Saddam

And to this we'll add a few of the 200+ other attacks against Americans:
-- 1975-95 - torching of dozens of American cars, mostly servicemen when the bases were there.
-- 2 Feb 85 - bombing of Bobby's bar - 74 Americans wounded
-- August 86 - car bombing of the Cavuri hotel in Glyfada where American servicemen stayed
-- April 87 - attempted bombing of a US Commissary with a second bomb targeting the evacuation area to decimate the American wives and children in the commissary
-- April 88 - bombing of American service men hangout Oscar's pub - 85 wounded.
-- 1987 - attempted bombing of two DEA officers
-- 1991 - attempted killiing of a US Military Attache Office Sergeant.
-- 1995 - attempted rocketing of the US embassy
-- 2007 - successful rocketing of the US embassy

Plus attempted shootings on the streets, attempted bombings of American military buses, attempted attack on the base itself.

Plus hundreds of attacks on Foreigners and their business and diplomatic installations including the murder of 4 Turkish diplomats and attempted murdrer of more, murder of at least 2 British diplomats, attacks on Germans, French, Israelies, Italians, Spanish, attacks on anything "associated with NATO." Christos Kasimis, the founder of ELA and an associate of Yanni Sarifis was killed in 21 Oct 1977 by Serifis when they were trying to bomb a German factory outside of Athens...the list goes on and on.

And this doesn't count the hundreds of cases of intimidation and murder of Greek citizens including the son-in-law of the then Prime Minister...the blatant intimidation of the legal system including lawyers, prosecuters, judges, police...the packing of juries with anarchists...the shoot-outs with police, the robberies of armories, use of rockets and bazookas, the periodic busting of "anarchist safe houses" by the police with thousands of leads which mysteriously led nowhere....

This doesn't count the nightly "gazaka" attacks on cars in Athens or the 1998 burning of Athens to protest the visit of President Bill Clinton. It doesn't count the murder of police to seize their weapons...latest attack was against a guard outside of the British Military Attache...shot down without mercy, his submachine gun seized... It doesn't count the sheltering of other European nationals wanted for crimes by the Greek government (the most famous is an Italian terrorist wanted for murder, given asylum by Papandreaou..but there are others)...

And I haven't even begun to mention the attacks by Palestinians carried out from Greece with the help of the Greek left...it would gag a maggot... including ship hijakings, airline hijackings, murders by Black June, attacks on travel agencies. Or the anarchist declaration of "alliance" with Al Qaida after 9/11...(of all things for God's sake...).

The US State Department classified Athens as the most dangerous place in the world...more than Beirut or Bogota...for years. And the question has to be asked "why." "How long will it continue?" "What is the definition of a law-abiding peaceful society?" "How do you stop it?" (there are towns and islands still classed as "leftwing" or "rightwing"...Exarchia is anarchist. Aegina has a reputation of being left-wing; some of the towns on the Adriatic coast were classed as "left-wing"...I'm not up to date on this and will leave it to the Greeks - Hellenes to define it further.)

[LaoSexMachine]

Very sad, Elfstone. If they want anarchy they should look at Somalia as an example. Effing snobs who like to bitch about their comfortable lives.

[achilles]

Plus attempted shootings on the streets, attempted bombings of American military buses, attempted attack on the base itself.

So now the US is Greece's victim, or you are trying to imply something else?

What you are doing is creating false impressions by depicting only a single-sided story. In other words you are propagandizing, and you are doing it quite skillfully.

Everytime the US sticks its nose to other countries affairs, a certain degree if reaction is definitely explainable and to a great extent justified. What did you expect after 7 years of a US-imposed military junta? No reaction from certain extremist Greek groups?

Want to get into the details of your foreign policy's anti-Greek elements throughout the years and make your posts objective, or keep posting like a newer version of Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels?

[achilles]

The more important thing is to estimate what will happen after calm down? occuping the instituties should be punished but?

No it wont be punished, it never does. For the same reason our police sits and watches extremists burn everything to the ground.

I dont know what will happen CD. Our crisis is basically political. Its where the problem stems from and at the same time the source of solution, if and only if a few good men dare to take all necessary measures. I dont see that happening anytime soon.

[Elfstone44]

So now the US is Greece's victim, or you are trying to imply something else?

What you are doing is creating false impressions by depicting only a single-sided story. In other words you are propagandizing, and you are doing it quite skillfully.

Everytime the US sticks its nose to other countries affairs, a certain degree if reaction is definitely explainable and to a great extent justified. What did you expect after 7 years of a US-imposed military junta? No reaction from certain extremist Greek groups?

Want to get into the details of your foreign policy's anti-Greek elements throughout the years and make your posts objective, or keep posting like a newer version of Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels?

Achilles,

I am not propagandizing, nor am I accusing "Greece" of attacking the United States. I am not posting "anti-Greek" treatises. Please re-read what I've written:

-- I am accusing a small group of Greek Anarcho-leftists of murder and terrorism.
-- I am accusing this small group of anarcho-leftists of attacking the Greek government, the Greek body politic and the Greek economy for 33 years; the attacks ranged from torching cars to out-and-out intimidation and murder.
-- I am accusing this group of targeting American diplomats, the US Embassy, and the US Military (much like Al Qaida did and does) and murdering several; some of these crimes are still unsolved.
-- I am also accusing this group of attacking European targets, businesses and diplomatic officials, multiple times, British, German, Italian, Spanish, French, Turkish, Israeli and murdering several.
-- I am accusing this group of attacking "NATO" targets which included murder.
-- I am acusing this group of cooperation with Palestinian terrorist groups and a number of other international terrorist groups; this is well documented in the Greek and European press.

++ While this small group is ideologically against "capitalism" and "the West" and "America," I am not saying that this group threatens all of us like Al Qaida does; it does not go abroad; it prefers to burn Athens rather than blow up subways in Madrid or London.

In about 1990 the Revolutionary Popular Struggle (ELA) sent a list of some 660 attacks they had conducted since 1975 to the papers...and this was a partial list. 17N sent proclamations to the papers bragging about each of their attacks. So what I am saying here is not "propaganda"..these are attacks claimed in public. These events took place. They are not fantasy.

Tell you what; I'll do some research and post here later a list of attacks conducted by Greek anarcho-leftists against each country in the world. I will emphasize that to my knowledge, all these attacks took place in Greece; none were conducted abroad (as the Palestinians did). And, I'll list first the attacks they conducted against Greeks. This will be done so the extent of the problem and its historical roots can be understood. Hopefully, this might lead the electorate to do something about it.

By the way, the April 1967 coup was conducted by Greek Colonels. LBJ and the US had nothing to do with it. We didn't recognize the government for 10 months; the Soviets recognized them in 5 days. Whether this justifies firing a rocket at the US Embassy 41 years later is something others can comment on.

I am not "anti-Greek." Greece is one of the great civilizations of history; I have never been so warmly and hospitably received by a people as I was in Greece. However, I am against the tactics - murder, robbery, arson, intimidation - used by this small anarco-leftist group in Greece. What they engage in, it seems to me, has no place in a democracy. Once you allow violence into the political process, there is no end. They are burning down their own house for spite.

And here is something which for me is important to communicate: while I was hospitably received in the years I lived there, I have to admit in the spirit of truth, that I never experienced a constant threat and tension like I did in Athens, not in Vietnam, not in Pakistan; Driving down Kifissias avenue each morning, stuck in traffic, watching watching the motorcycles streaming past on each side of the vehicle, waiting for the one with the gun...and why would "they" want to kill me? Because I was an American..nothing more. It was not fun for me or my family.

[Peris]

-- I am also accusing this group of attacking European targets, businesses and diplomatic officials, multiple times, Israeli and murdering several.
.


Which Israeli target was hit?

[Pezy]

Macedon (...)Ultimately , this is a result of a disintegrated and rotten Greek society.

Quoted for truth.


Ezekiel25:17 How did y'all, Greeks, let it get this far?

I blame Pacifism and the policy of appeasement followed by all the governments for decades but most of all it's due to the apathy and passivity that characterizes Greek society. The silent majority disapproves violence but unlike Italy doesn't vote Right wing parties. Generally speaking Greece falls in the Centre of the political spectrum. Why the pacifism, appeasement practicies, lawlessness and Centre-Left policies? All can be explained when you examine the history, culture and politics of one country that mix and form its society the way it is.

Pacifism and appeasement towards crime and lawlessness, corrupt political system and leaderships that have corrupted the people, corrupt Socialist practicies in the economy for decades that spend money on consumption instead of infrastructure and 1+ millions of immigrants eventually don't produce positive results.


Its been going on for a long long time
............

With this post you gave the impression that terrorism and anarchism in Greece were and are a US problem mostly, when in reality it's an internal problem and Greece has paid - and still pays - a heavy toll. I suggest you open a separate thread about terrorism and anarchism in Greece by using your posts from this thread. You should also separate terrorism from anarchism and Leftists.



achilles (...)What did you expect after 7 years of a US-imposed military junta?(...)


Shockingly unhistorical...

[Snake Eater Wannabe]

As a Greek American I only pray that this isn't taken to the next level or any further but if my fellow greeks are goin to be a bunch of pricks and destroy more stuff, please do not touch the ancient ****. that stuff should be off limits. So do wut must be done my brothers and sisters but stay outta the damn parthenon and all the other great things our ancestor's left us. Damn leftist

[Snake Eater Wannabe]

Thanks for the reply Valtrex. I did simplify things...its hard to summarize 60 years of history in 5 paragraphs. However, I will respond to five points you made below (and again this is the opinion of a "philhellene" but in the end an outsider):

"You should not forget that the first “Warm war” of the "Cold war" started in Greek soil in 1946. The Great powers, from either the West or the East, found their happy playground here. The result: a humiliated left, eager to take revenge and thus becoming myrmidon of the SU and a purblind right, who although were the winners, followed a policy which drove themselves into a corner:"

1. I believe based on years of conversations with Greeks that actally to understand elements of Greek leftism (and I'm not sure I do) you really have to go back as far as 1204 AD, the 4th Crusade and its sack of Constantinople and forced conversion to Catholicism (for 80 years). "Revolutionary Organization 17 November" had a strong Orthodox as well as Trotskyite flavor. There is a hatred of the Catholic and Protestant west in Greek society left over from this event...and it spills into the violent and supposedly a-religious left as well. And it definitely splashes onto America. (there is a thread on greatest sea battles in the "strategy and tactic" line...take a look at Lepanto and you'll see the Venetians had already been forced out of Cyprus by the Turks 10 weeks before the battle..and the Orthodox inhabitants supported the Turk takeover. There is a Greek saying from the time..."better the turban of a Turk than the Mitre of a Pope.")

....Observation -- There is a theory that to be considered "European" in its modern context, a nation had to have participated in 3 great modern continent-wide events: The crusades, the Reformation, and the 30 Years War. Well, Greece played a role in the crusades...or rather the Eastern Roman Empire did...well sort of, it was their emmissary to the Pope in 1096 which led to the preaching of the battle mass). But the Byzantium Romans retained a healthy skepticism of the fanaticism and cupidity of the Frankish Crusaders and Roman troops did not follow to Jerusalem. But, after 29 May 1453 though, it was pretty much hors-de-combat. So are modern Greeks really European?

"when the US General James Van Fleet, visited Makronissos (the island used as a place of imprisonment for Greek communists, hosting hundreds of prisoners, after the civil war), he stated: "For me, today's visit to Makronissos was one of the happiest days of my life. Verily, a national Baptismal" (February 23, 1949).

And the response of our PM Panayotis Kanellopoulos was: "General, you are witnessing the construction of contemporary Greece's New Parthenon."

2. As for modern events, you'll notice that I did start my opinion with mention of the Greek Civil War 1946-1949. I always wonder if it would have been better to let Greece be communist for 50 years. You sure don't see the Romanians and Bulgarians kids today mooning about the great "socialist era" they were forced to endure from 1946-1989.

"Even for me, who I am no communist or a leftist, these quotes by both men on the occasion of their day-long visit to that Hellpit, where "pulled nails were welcomed by the leftist detainees, in lieu of the more horrific alternatives" ("letters from exile", 1951) drive me mad." "

3. That Civil War was tirggered by a communist attempt to take over Athens in December 1944. Everyone knows the stories of communist guerrillas in Greece, who were supposed to fight the Germans, actually concentrating on eliminating the nationalist opposition and preparing for a post-war coup. And like most civil wars when it got going in 1946 supported from the Bloc Yugoslavia, it was awful; the stories of atrocities on both sides are horrific. But I reserve the most opprobrium for the Reds...and when they were beaten, they retreated into the Bloc countries taking thousands of kidnapped kids with them. I read "Eleni" and my blood ran cold. It was a tough time. May I ask what were the politics of your parents?

"No, thank you, no more unsolicited saviours who all they're wiiling to do is "save" us even if we do not want to be saved, and 40 years later while on official visit, express their sorry for the past misdeeds (Apologia Clintonia in 1999)"

4. We did indeed have to save Europe's butt in Kosovo and Bosnia yet again...and 10 years later we're still there!! This is getting old for us and we have absolutely no interest in doing it again. As for me, I'd let NATO go. Let the Europeans defend themselves from the Russians. I've had it with what seems to me be the smug sanctimoniousness and condescension and do-nothing sit-on-the-hands attitude of our allies. (except for the Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Polish, Slovakians, Czechs, Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Moldovans, Ukranians, Armenians, Georgians, etc.. who really are threatened..unlike your Greek silliness.)

5. As for Bill Clinton and his apology in Athens, what did he apologize for? For our not overthrowing the Junta? He wasn't even there at the time!!! Look, the Soviets recognized the Junta within 5 days of its taking power; the US didn't do so until 11 months later when the Colonels threated to do a "Nasser" on Nato. And it was Johnson who saved Papandreaou from Papadopoulos saying, "tell papa whats-his-name to leave papa whats-his-name alone." Clinton's statement was made against all recommendations of the State Department and National Security Council. They knew it would be used by the Lefties to justify whatever they wanted to do against America and for Greeks of all stripes to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions. It has been and it will be. It was supremely stupid and egotistical. Clinton did the same thing in Africa; after Monica, he seemed to have to run around the world apologizing...not for himself...no way could he do that...but for America. Silly thing to do IMHO.

Enough ranting about history...what's Greece going to do now?

After all the stories my parents tell me and of course my fascination with my origins I cant help to notice that the politics in Greece remind me of Afghan warlord politics. I simply worry about a much bigger issue, which would be the jihadis gaining some sort of foot hold in Greece ( don't get me wrong I'm well aware of terror activity their but if there is to be some sort of allayment say like chechnya.)

[Elfstone44]

Which Israeli target was hit?

Peris,

I don't really have that sort of memory. But off the top of my head I'll relate one attack which stuck in my mind for some reason. In July 1982 (I think-might have been 1981) an Israeli travel agency in Pireaus was attacked. Two Palestinians walked in and machine-gunned the owners then left tossing grenades. They eluded the police by tossing a grenade at them while escaping in a taxi. The attack was claimed a few days later in Beirut by Popular Front representatives (Salim Abu Salim, Taysir Quba et.al., crowd.).

It was later also claimed by ELA in that letter to the paper. The conclusion is that ELA aided the PFLP attack. It wasn't the first time and it wasn't the last time.

Prezy,

As for separating the Trotskyites, Communists, and Anarchists, I've tried. They go back and forth. And the twists and turns of "ideology" ultimately lead one to believe its useless. The hundreds of groups which suddenly appear then disappear lead to the conclusion that these are made-up names being used for a short period of time and discarded by the same group of people. Admittedly there is a difference-17N I think thought the anarchists to be granola revolutionaries. But, I think if the names of the top 50 anarchists in Greece over the last 30 years were published...you'd recognize them as members sooner or later of Leftwing terrorist groups. Tsoutsouvis comes to mind but so does Balafas, Skiftoulis, Pisimissis, Boukouvalas, Lesperoglou, Marinos, Mazokopos, Maziotis, Kisimis, the Serifis clan, and dozens of others. It looks like the terrorist groups used the Anarchists as a recruiting ground. I will say that I think most of these men had a great distrust of the EKKE the Greek Communist Party. I'll leave this to the Greeks to discuss; I don't know why but have some suspicions.

[Elfstone44]

For those curious about Snake Eater's remark about the Parthenon above, it relates to this article:

http://inlinethumb26.webshots.com/40345/2248350290104377215S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2248350290104377215eBzmsB)

Greek youths hang protest banners from Acropolis

http://sg.yimg.com/i/sg/providers/ap.gif?x=170&y=40&sig=NJTk97Gpd3h6v5MkNRiMzw-- (http://aa.rd.yahoo.com/partners/ap/SIG=10mesffu6/*http://www.ap.org/) By ELENA BECATOROS,Associated Press Writer AP - Thursday, December 18

ATHENS, Greece - Protesters hung two giant banners off the Acropolis on Wednesday, with slogans calling for mass demonstrations across Europe and "resistance," after days of violent protests sparked by the fatal police shooting of a teenager in Athens.


http://row.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=bAIYBHxsfeplhmuARje6dgKRR36xBUlJ7yMACqSS&T=13vntlkhf%2fX%3d1229582118%2fE%3d35614708%2fR%3dsg_news%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dHR%2fY%3dSG%2fF%3d1423057452%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dAB7C6C7C&U=13fiq6qob%2fN%3dro.aYHxsfLg-%2fC%3d703445.13103299.13292633.2013436%2fD%3dLREC%2fB%3d5548601%2fV%3d1
About a dozen protesters held the pink banners over the walls of the ancient citadel, Greece's most famous monument, one bearing the word "Resistance" written in large black letters in four languages: Greek, English, Spanish and German. The other called for mass demonstrations across Europe on Thursday.


The banners were taken down after two hours.


"There can be no justification for this action. This hurts the image of our country abroad ... it is unacceptable," government spokesman Evangelos Antonaros said.


Student demonstrations are already planned in Athens and Greece's second largest city of Thessaloniki on Thursday to protest the Dec. 6 police killing of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos.


The riots that followed the teenager's death are the worst Greece has seen in decades, feeding off widespread dissatisfaction with the unpopular conservative government and anger over social inequality and economic hardship.


Hundreds of shops and banks were smashed, torched or looted as gangs of masked and hooded youths rampaged through cities night after night, setting up burning barricades in the streets and clashing with riot police who fired large amounts of tear gas. Retailers say the damage will cost them euro1.5 billion ($2 billion) in lost income.


More than 300 people were detained or arrested in the rioting.
Although the rioting has abated, small-scale attacks continue.


Police said about a dozen youths on motorcycles set fire to a police bus in central Athens. The driver managed to escape the fire and no one was hurt.


Also Wednesday, about 40 protesters occupied the offices of the Greece's largest labor union, the GSEE.


"I believe they have chosen the wrong target ... The GSEE does not govern this country. So it's wrong to undermine the labor unions," GSEE leader Yiannis Panagopoulos said.


About 100 high school students gathered outside the capital's main court complex, pelting riot police guarding the building with stones, eggs, rocks and yogurt to demand that those detained in the riots be freed.


In Greece's second largest city of Thessaloniki, police said a bank and a local citizens advice office were firebombed before dawn Wednesday in attacks that caused damage but no injuries.


After a week of violence, many protesters have begun using different tactics to make themselves heard.


On Tuesday, a group of youths stormed their way into Greece's state television and radio studios, forcing broadcasters to put out anti-government messages.


Ten young protesters disrupted a state NET television news broadcast of the prime minister's speech, appearing live on national television carrying banners that read: "Stop watching, get out onto the streets" and "Free everyone who has been arrested."


In Thessaloniki, protesters broke into three local radio stations, agreeing to leave only when a protest message was read on the air.


Greece's opposition Socialists have accused Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis' conservative government of mishandling the crisis and worsening the effects of the global economic downturn. The Socialists are calling for Karamanlis to resign and call new elections, a demand he has rebuffed.


Parliament starts debate Wednesday on Greece's 2009 budget, which includes at least 4 billion euros ($5.6 billion) in new taxes.
____

[achilles]

I am not propagandizing, nor am I accusing "Greece" of attacking the United States. I am not posting "anti-Greek" treatises.

I think you do.


I am acusing this group of cooperation with Palestinian terrorist groups and a number of other international terrorist groups; this is well documented in the Greek and European press.

Is it? Where?


While this small group is ideologically against "capitalism" and "the West" and "America," I am not saying that this group threatens all of us like Al Qaida does; it does not go abroad; it prefers to burn Athens rather than blow up subways in Madrid or London.

Although you aknowledge that those Greek extremists are not exactly like Al Qaeda, you imply that there are analogies between the two entities. That is a very unfortunate conclusion. Needless to explain why, AQ and a bunch of "anarchists" cannot be compared by any logic, since the former is immense in terms of scale, capacity, degree of deployment, logistics and, apparently, impact. That was a poor conclusion not because your judgment is weak but precisely because your attempt is to play Dr. Goebbels....a little bit. ;)


So what I am saying here is not "propaganda"..these are attacks claimed in public. These events took place. They are not fantasy.

This is true. As it is also true that crude facts, especially when single-sided and cherry-picked, can well be used for propagandistic reasons. Cmon, you know those things better than i do....

By the way, the April 1967 coup was conducted by Greek Colonels. LBJ and the US had nothing to do with it.

Dead wrong.

The same year, on April 21, Papadopoulos led a successful coup with fellow officers, taking advantage of the volatile political situation that had arisen from a conflict between King Constantine II and the aging prime minister, Georgios Papandreou. Many observers characterize his subsequent rule, known as Junta, as heavy-handed. Henry Tasca, American Ambassador to Greece, called the new regime "the most anti-communist group you'll find anywhere." Almost anyone who even said the word "communist" was jailed.

His regime was supported by the United States and he is believed to have personal connections with the American Central Intelligence Agency. Internal CIA documents allegedly refer to Papadopoulos as an ally.
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/George:Papadopoulos.htm
http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/George_Papadopoulos
http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/biography/papadopoulos.htm

The head of the junta had EVERYTHING to do with the United States and its secret services, namely, Langley. You could have been more honest in your posts, since your prolongued stay in Greece definitely did not involve tourism.


We didn't recognize the government for 10 months; the Soviets recognized them in 5 days. Whether this justifies firing a rocket at the US Embassy 41 years later is something others can comment on.

I couldnt care less about "official recognitions" or other diplomatic manoevres comprising the facade of your foreign policy. I do care however about your covert diplomacy, largely implemented by your secret services. Now talk to me about democracy.



What they engage in, it seems to me, has no place in a democracy. Once you allow violence into the political process, there is no end. They are burning down their own house for spite.

Agreed.

Now take a look at this. The following two chunks of text depict Greece as a hospital, friendly dream land at the very edge of southeastern Europe. ..

I am not "anti-Greek." Greece is one of the great civilizations of history; I have never been so warmly and hospitably received by a people as I was in Greece.

And here is something which for me is important to communicate: while I was hospitably received in the years I lived there,

So far so good. Now how can such a cool place like Greece made you feel less secure and more tense as compared to Vietnam (!!!) or Pakistan (!!!) is something that needs to be addressed by the scientific community!!

The following is a piece of art.

I have to admit in the spirit of truth, that I never experienced a constant threat and tension like I did in Athens, not in Vietnam, not in Pakistan;

So what you are suggesting is....that the following....

...by this small anarco-leftist group in Greece.

..made you feel more tense than in Vietnam and Pakistan, but other than that Greece has welcomed you like no other country in the world?

Forgive me, but you simply dont make any sense in any of this..


Driving down Kifissias avenue each morning, stuck in traffic, watching watching the motorcycles streaming past on each side of the vehicle, waiting for the one with the gun...and why would "they" want to kill me? Because I was an American..nothing more. It was not fun for me or my family.

Driving down Kifissias Av. on your way to the American Embassy i suppose ;). To be so afraid, suggests the following:
- You were a diplomat, or
- You were a spy....or a member of your secret services if you like, or,
- all of the above

This may be true for American diplomats, spies in Athens. We dont like you, for good reasons. But US diplomats and spies in Athens make up a very small fraction of all Americans who live, stay or visit Athens, and feel quite happy and secure with their surrounding environment.

[achilles]

Shockingly unhistorical...

No ****.


United States President Bill Clinton has admitted the US was wrong to back the military junta which took control in Greece in 1967.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/529932.stm

Thats ok Bill. We forgive you.

[TheEvian100]

Violence has again escalated as of today... Unfortunately :(
http://ru.youtube.com/v/HLEAEQUyWkI

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=HLEAEQUyWkI


No ****.



Thats ok Bill. We forgive you.

Dear Achillea,

I would suggest you to calm down, just think that you may be giving all greek members a negative image. You're a senior member you should know better. There's a difference between fully planning & imposing the '67 dictatorship and simply letting it happen plus support/deal with it afterwards (the latter is what USA and even USSR did).

Pezy was right in his helpfull insight, so lets leave it there.

[achilles]

Dear Achillea,

I would suggest you to calm down, just think that you may be giving all greek members a negative image. You're a senior member you should know better.

I am perfectly calm and express my personal opinions and nothing more here. I am not the Greek delegate or anything.


There's a difference between fully planning & imposing the '67 dictatorship and simply letting it happen plus support/deal with it afterwards (the latter is what USA and even USSR did).

Papadopoulos had been on CIA's payroll long before the coup. He enlisted CIA's payroll circa 1950. Other members of his "cabinet" as well, at least one prime minister. Therefore the US "did not just let it happen"...dig the issue a bit deeper if you are interested. This is no place for history lectures.


Pezy was right in his helpfull insight, so lets leave it there.

I'm afraid he was wrong.

[achilles]

By the way, the April 1967 coup was conducted by Greek Colonels. LBJ and the US had nothing to do with it. We didn't recognize the government for 10 months; the Soviets recognized them in 5 days. Whether this justifies firing a rocket at the US Embassy 41 years later is something others can comment on.

This is another point begging for reality check. You are simply wrong. Or just lying.


Regardless of whether or not they knew about it the US government does not take long to recognize the dictators as the legitimate Greek government, just one week after the coup. The British are not so easily convinced and take an extra day before they recognize the Junta as well. The Americans continue the massive military and economic aid to go with a growing military presence in Greece.
http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/junta.htm

[Jobu]

The CIA supported a Greek anti-communist coup in the 60's therefore a bunch of morons who were born in the 1980's and 1990's must cause a billion $ worth of damage in Greece today.


It all makes sense now. It was the AFL-CIA.

[achilles]

On topic: there is turbulence right now in Panepisthmiou St. area and around Law School in Solonos St. It seems that its going to be hot tonight.

[TheEvian100]

^^^
A rather descriptive video from today's rioting..
http://ru.youtube.com/v/eiYxEl8WFK4

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYxEl8WFK4


Papadopoulos had been on CIA's payroll long before the coup. He enlisted CIA's payroll circa 1950. Other members of his "cabinet" as well, at least one prime minister. Therefore the US "did not just let it happen"...dig the issue a bit deeper if you are interested. This is no place for history lectures.

I respect your personal opinions and any of the associated unfounded claims. You would be surprised how many conspiracy theories exist, about poeple being (supposedly) on CIA payroll. Let it go and we'll all fine. :)

[achilles]

I respect your personal opinions and any of the associated unfounded claims. You would be surprised how many conspiracy theories exist, about poeple being (supposedly) on CIA payroll. Let it go and we'll all fine. :)

If you are looking for unfounded claims take a good look at Elfstone44's posts. Then look again at my replies. That should tell you something.

If you dont feel like engaging in such a discussion be my guest and dont do it, enallos. Prompting me to not do it, is not within your jurisdiction i'm afraid.
I wasnt planning to get into it, until Elfstone44 lost the grip of his posts. Anyhow...i suggest you scratch a bit the surface of the Greek junta story, and you'll see that what i said is not a conspiracy theory but a set of well-established facts.

Παρεπιπτόντως, Έλληνας είσαι?

[SBL]

If you are looking for unfounded claims take a good look at Elfstone44's posts. Then look again at my replies. That should tell you something.

Exactly what unfounded claims are we talking about here?
It seems to me that you are taking some liberties with Elfstone's original posts.

[achilles]

Exactly what unfounded claims are we talking about here?


Did you bother reading all related posts carefully?

Unfounded claim 1 (aka BS): The US had nothing to do with the junta
Unfounded claim 2 (aka BS): The US recognized the junta 10 months after its ascend to power.

Unfounded incoherent claim 3: Greece is the most hospital country but for some reason one feels his life is threatened more than in Pakistan or Vietnmam.


Elfstone's credibility was flushed down the toilet and it comes as a surprise that you can't see it.

ON EDIT: to those who know the Greek reality throughout the years, and the US influence on it, Elfstone's attempt to blend undisputed facts with fiction, lies, inconsistencies and personal estimation should be quite obvious. I'm not sure this is deliberate but this is how it surfaces

[Jobu]

And yet you complained when Greece was denied entry into the USA's visa waiver program.

Maybe this rioting will help.

[Peris]

Peris,

I don't really have that sort of memory. But off the top of my head I'll relate one attack which stuck in my mind for some reason. In July 1982 (I think-might have been 1981) an Israeli travel agency in Pireaus was attacked. Two Palestinians walked in and machine-gunned the owners then left tossing grenades. They eluded the police by tossing a grenade at them while escaping in a taxi. The attack was claimed a few days later in Beirut by Popular Front representatives (Salim Abu Salim, Taysir Quba et.al., crowd.).

It was later also claimed by ELA in that letter to the paper. The conclusion is that ELA aided the PFLP attack. It wasn't the first time and it wasn't the last time.
.


in other words no Greek terrorist EVER attacked an Israeli target inside Greece and this is quite true i think.

[Elfstone44]

Did you bother reading all related posts carefully?

Unfounded claim 1 (aka BS): The US had nothing to do with the junta
Unfounded claim 2 (aka BS): The US recognized the junta 10 months after its ascend to power.

Unfounded incoherent claim 3: Greece is the most hospital country but for some reason one feels his life is threatened more than in Pakistan or Vietnmam.


Elfstone's credibility was flushed down the toilet and it comes as a surprise that you can't see it.

ON EDIT: to those who know the Greek reality throughout the years, and the US influence on it, Elfstone's attempt to blend undisputed facts with fiction, lies, inconsistencies and personal estimation should be quite obvious. I'm not sure this is deliberate but this is how it surfaces

Achilles: You didn't understand apparently, let me repeat it once again:

1. The US had nothing to do with the Junta coming to power. The US thought some General might make a move because of the mess caused by Papandreaou (the father) but the Colonels caught everyone by surprise.

2. The US waited 10 months before recognizing the Junta and did it then only because they threatened to do a Nassar on NATO. if you'll recall there was a world war raging then..called the cold war...Greece was important to the West.

3. In Vietnam I carried a weapon, was in a war and knew what to expect; in Pakistan likewise; I did/do in Afghanistan. In Athens I drove those streets of a NATO ally in the 80's and 90's with nothing in my pocket waiting to be shot by some brave Greek Leftist (who wouldn't dare stand up to me in a fair fight) while I was stuck in traffic, or when I walked out of my house, or when I was shopping. It happened to Nordeen and his driver and several other Americans. It happened to British brigadier Saunders. It happened to Turkish diplomats walking out of their house in the morning and to Greek officials and businessmen. And, as you can tell from my personal info, I was indeed an American diplomat...supposedly under the protection of the Greek people.

.....-- And let me emphasize that while attacks in Athens for 30 years often targeted foreigners, by far the biggest sufferer was Greece and Greeks; they killed prosecutors, lawyers, cops, journalists, doctors, businessmen, politicians, officials, witnesses, teachers.......those anarchists and leftwing terrorists were so brave, so brave.

4. I addressed the Clinton "apology" above. He was running around the world apologizing for everything when he really should have apologized to the American people. His unneeded "apology" (what did he apologize for?) sure didn't keep the anarchists from burning Athens during his visit and sure gave you an excuse to pontificate.

5. As for Papadopoulos, glad to know you have access to CIA secret files. Papadopoulos was a CIA agent from the early 1950's? Man, that means he worked for them during the Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon administrations. You are smoking something if you think anyone would believe that.

Now Achilles, how old are you? Do you remember the 1970's? 1980's? How about the 90's? What were the politics of your parents? I'd guess Red. You called me a liar several times. Well, I will post some more stuff which will get your goat shortly, so get some more insults ready.

And, by the way, this stuff you posted below, sort of make you out to be a terrorist sympathizer. It looks like you like American tourist dollars; but it appears you hate American officials, diplomats, military and businessemen and from the below it sure seems you don't mind seeing them bombed and whacked.

Oh, I suppose calling you a terrorist sympathizer is a bit much since I don't think you have the guts to pull a gun. So, what would you call yourself? 'Vanilla revolutionary?" "Rage against the Machine?" "Cuba Si; Yanqui No?" "Gulog forever?" One of the "Baaahing Sheep" in "Animal Farm?" What are you prepared to do for your beliefs? (what are your beliefs?) Are you in the streets with your brothers?

Driving down Kifissias Av. on your way to the American Embassy i suppose ;-). To be so afraid, suggests the following:
- You were a diplomat, or
- You were a spy....or a member of your secret services if you like, or,
- all of the above

This may be true for American diplomats, spies in Athens. We dont like you, for good reasons. But US diplomats and spies in Athens make up a very small fraction of all Americans who live, stay or visit Athens, and feel quite happy and secure with their surrounding environment.

[SBL]

Did you bother reading all related posts carefully?

Unfounded claim 1 (aka BS): The US had nothing to do with the junta
Elfstone's assertion was that the Coup itself was not a US construct. That it was not the brain-child of the CIA, as you seem to think.
Unfounded claim 2 (aka BS): The US recognized the junta 10 months after its ascend to power.
Well, I wouldn't know about that, but I'd be interested in seeing some proof one way or the other. I do know both the US and USSR had relations with the Junta, so it's moot as far as I'm concerned.

Unfounded incoherent claim 3: Greece is the most hospital country but for some reason one feels his life is threatened more than in Pakistan or Vietnmam.
This claim makes sense to me. After all, it's a statement based on his personal feelings and experiences. I don't see what's not to understand.

Elfstone's credibility was flushed down the toilet and it comes as a surprise that you can't see it.
I wouldn't exactly say it's been flushed down the toilet. There appear to be a few finer points that you take issue with, for one reason or another, but I don't see any reason to discredit his posts wholesale. I think they've been very informative and interesting.
You, on the other hand, appear to have an axe to grind, and are taking (making?) issue with whoever suggests that Greece was not 100% the victim of American machinations.

[TheEvian100]

I wasnt planning to get into it, until Elfstone44 lost the grip of his posts. Anyhow...i suggest you scratch a bit the surface of the Greek junta story, and you'll see that what i said is not a conspiracy theory but a set of well-established facts.

Facts have been mixed with fiction when it comes to Papadopoulos and his junta onafter 1973. On 1967 onwards he wasn't on any payroll, he didn't have to, the rest is irrelevant and tricky to say so.


Παρεπιπτόντως, Έλληνας είσαι?
(translation) By the way, are you Hellene?

Well, I am puzzled with the motives of your question, why ask me now and here? I've pm'ed you.

[Elfstone44]

in other words no Greek terrorist EVER attacked an Israeli target inside Greece and this is quite true i think.

Peris, ELA claimed that attack. Whether they did the shooting or did the casing and support and helped with the escape, they're guilty in my book.

It would help to understand the relationship between the Greek anarchists and leftwing terrorists and Palestinian groups from 1972 on.
...-- One could start with the case of Lesperoglou...its instructive (look at his relationship with the PFLP-SOG of Wadi'a Haddad and PFLP of George Habbash)
...-- (by the way Wadi and Habbash were both Greek Orthodox Communist Palestinians) (by by the way: Wadi was the founder of all modern-terrorism in 1967; I'll go into it if you're interested).
...-- Also look at Christoforos Marinos (dead-the world is a safer place) and his relationship to the Hawari organization (Fatah group which operated out of Baghdad)..where was he arrested? Who was he with when he was arrested? etc.
...-- There was a Greek gang arrested in 1979 or 1980 as they planned to attack the American Embassy, American Ambassador, American businesses, etc. Forgot the name of the guy for the moment. But he was connected to Wadi's successor organization in Beirut the PFLP-SC or SOC and in parrticular to its "chief of operations" Taysir Quba. I'll remember the name iin a little while and post it. He beat the charges...all of them did...and I think he lives on Mikonos now and shows up at various anarchist rallies.

There are a number of other leads you could follow-up if you're interested.

[achilles]

The US had nothing to do with the Junta coming to power. The US thought some General might make a move because of the mess caused by Papandreaou (the father) but the Colonels caught everyone by surprise.

Carefull selection of words. Projecting the point that suits you, discretely circumventing the point you are, and should, be uncomfortable with. This could be a good diplomat's trait, am i right?

I will pause for a second on this issue and ask you this: your assertion that "The US had nothing to do with the Junta coming to power" gives me the impression that there is room for a link between the US and junta. Is that so? If yes, what is that link according to you?


2. The US waited 10 months before recognizing the Junta and did it then only because they threatened to do a Nassar on NATO. if you'll recall there was a world war raging then..called the cold war...Greece was important to the West.

The US rushed into recognizing the junta within a few days. Thats a fact. Can you back up your claim?


3. In Vietnam I carried a weapon, was in a war and knew what to expect; in Pakistan likewise; I did/do in Afghanistan. In Athens I drove those streets of a NATO ally in the 80's and 90's with nothing in my pocket waiting to be shot by some brave Greek Leftist (who wouldn't dare stand up to me in a fair fight) while I was stuck in traffic, or when I walked out of my house, or when I was shopping. It happened to Nordeen and his driver and several other Americans. It happened to British brigadier Saunders. It happened to Turkish diplomats walking out of their house in the morning and to Greek officials and businessmen. And, as you can tell from my personal info, I was indeed an American diplomat...supposedly under the protection of the Greek people.

I still find your claim of feeling more safe in Pakistan and/or Vietnam absurde, to say the least. Thats a personal feeling stemming from a personal experience. It certainly does not reflect the actual situation simply because you experienced it this way. I object to your biased aphorism of previous posts, based on which all americans in Greece (tourists, backpackers, baseball players) were at risk. Thats what you implied. Well,not all. Just diplomats, foreign officers, military officers etc. You know better than me that those groups are prime targets of extremists in practically every country. Greece has never been an exception to this rule.


.....-- And let me emphasize that while attacks in Athens for 30 years often targeted foreigners, by far the biggest sufferer was Greece and Greeks; they killed prosecutors, lawyers, cops, journalists, doctors, businessmen, politicians, officials, witnesses, teachers.......those anarchists and leftwing terrorists were so brave, so brave.
I dont crack champaigns when people die in my country. And i do not support hood-wearing self-proclaimed anarchist hooligans trashing everything in their path. So that you know better where i stand.


4. I addressed the Clinton "apology" above. He was running around the world apologizing for everything when he really should have apologized to the American people. His unneeded "apology" (what did he apologize for?) sure didn't keep the anarchists from burning Athens during his visit and sure gave you an excuse to pontificate.

What did he apologize for? This is for you to answer. Did he admit a US backing of the military junta where there wasnt any? What did he apologize for?


5. As for Papadopoulos, glad to know you have access to CIA secret files. Papadopoulos was a CIA agent from the early 1950's? Man, that means he worked for them during the Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon administrations. You are smoking something if you think anyone would believe that.

Why does the length of his nobble services to Langley bother you? Do you know otherwise? For how long had he been a CIA agent? Which years?


Now Achilles, how old are you? Do you remember the 1970's? 1980's? How about the 90's? What were the politics of your parents? I'd guess Red.

You guess wrong. My parents were right/far right. My grandfather was executed, decapitated and his headless body was crucified for being an orthodox priest with solid political beliefs, by a communist/commintern lot. That should make it more clear now. I do not fall into any of the "left", "right", "south" or "north" political categories. My political beliefs consist of a number of things that are not to be discussed here, now, but that could give you an idea.



And, by the way, this stuff you posted below, sort of make you out to be a terrorist sympathizer. It looks like you like American tourist dollars; but it appears you hate American officials, diplomats, military and businessemen and from the below it sure seems you don't mind seeing them bombed and whacked.

Oh the word "terror" comes so handy nowadays now, doesnt it? The stream of fallacies you posted above are certainly not implied in my text. But the way you gave that twist is interesting. This is called "countering the opponent with his own weapons"? Is this also listed in the "good diplomat's" handbook? Or in Dr. Goebbels golden guide of "how to twist reality"?

My posts in this thread should have given you a better clue on how much i respect life, private property, irrespective of ethnicity. Yet, its true that i have issues with American diplomats, especially Republicans.

As for American tourists, what can i say? Tourism experts say you are stingy. Especially after the dollar/euro exchange rate twist. I'll go with the Germans.


Oh, I suppose calling you a terrorist sympathizer is a bit much since I don't think you have the guts to pull a gun. So, what would you call yourself? 'Vanilla revolutionary?" "Rage against the Machine?" "Cuba Si; Yanqui No?" "Gulog forever?" One of the "Baaahing Sheep" in "Animal Farm?" What are you prepared to do for your beliefs? (what are your beliefs?) Are you in the streets with your brothers?

Do you measure your guts through your willingness/ability to pull a gun? I dont.

Well the other question is a bit tricky. Rage against the machine is an interesting band, not politically, but because i like their riffs. As for my beliefs, try this: social liberal, which among other things includes an appreciation of sufficiently regulated free markets and private property, a minimal government sector and adequate law enforcing and judicial mechanisms.

I reckon i'd be happy living in a less greedy and fraudulent US with Swedish social institutions and Japanese foreign policy. ;)

[DS73]

I reckon i'd be happy living in a less greedy and fraudulent US with Swedish social institutions and Japanese foreign policy. ;)

Can you describe what do you mean by "swedish social institutions" and "japanese foreign policy"?

[LordKitchener]

Does anybody even regard this as a legitimate protest? It seems to me that it has little to do with the police shooting that kid and it's more about teenagers smashing up stuff for fun.

The police should not piss around with these people - fire some warning shots and then any arsonists/petrol-bomb throwers etc are liable to be shot with live rounds.

I have lost some respect for Greece over this.

[SBL]

Can you describe what do you mean by "swedish social institutions" and "japanese foreign policy"?

He wants to have his cake and eat it, too, methinks.

[TheEvian100]

The police should not piss around with these people - fire some warning shots and then any arsonists/petrol-bomb throwers etc are liable to be shot with live rounds.

I have lost some respect for Greece over this.

It sounds great but the government needs to give approval for use of plastic rounds and water-hoses. They haven't done the basics. They have never ordered the police encircle them, ever!

They catch one or two and release them later. Some of these people (antifa, etc.) are children of high-class society and politicians. There is a political party which flirts with these terrorist elements, at least it has been informally accused for that..

And this for 6-7.000 immature thugs that travel around the country and burn down everything. The PC and TV generation is eager to follow them, for the sake of being shown on camera.

PS: As Liberation has put it, the whole thing has an aura of "Orange revolution", which failed because in Greece there's no autocratic government, but simply an incompetent one, incompetent even to fall..

[Elfstone44]

Since the April coup assumes great importance in this line. here is a pretty good if superficial account of events in Athens in the late 1960's from Wikipedia...actually I doubt you'd find a better one this short. The US Ambassador to Greece at the time was Phillips Talbot and he was adamantly against the Junta (see below). But its worth a read to put April 1967 into perspective. (by the way..I was in Vietnam II Corps area at the time).

Achilles, you have my sympathy for what happened to your family. I asked that question because it is my experience in Greece, Italy and Spain that often political beliefs are inherited. I remember talking to an anarchist in the early 1990's and being told - "my great grand father was a communist, my grand father was a communist, my father was a communist; you (America) are my enemy."

I've seen Red tragedy before in Vietnam. Sometimes life is not fair. And you have to fight for your beliefs. You'll see below the USA did not conduct the April 1967 coup.
...-- You'll also notice most nations recognized the new leaders of Greece relatively quickly. Why is this? Its Political Science 101. Relations between nations are between governments in power. That's the political fact of life. You deal with Harare if you want to have an embassy there. I am absolutely sure that relations between elements of the US Government and the Greek government in Athens continued after the Coup. The Soviet Union recognize the Junta; the GDR, China, Cuba, Hungary, Bulgaria (you get my point).
...-- However, in the end it was the West which protested the Junta not the Comintern. Greece withdrew from the council of Europe but was still a member of NATO. Military strategy still was discussed by the militaries. Visas still had to be issued. Criminals extradicted from both sides. Recognition, however, does not mean approval and diplomatic recognition should not be construed as such. and I can state for a fact from conversations with US Diplomats in Greece at the time of the coup an afterwards, that Papadopoulos and his group were regarded as out-and-out thugs.

Wikipedia article--edited because of length: see the entire article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967–1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%931974-------------)

The Apostasia and political instability
Main article: Apostasia of 1965

After many years of conservative rule, the election of centrist George Papandreou, Sr. as Prime Minister was a sign of change. In a bid to gain more control over the country's government than what his limited constitutional powers allowed, the young and inexperienced King Constantine II clashed with liberal reformers, dismissing Papandreou in 1965, causing a constitutional crisis known as the Apostasia of 1965.
After making several attempts to form governments, relying on dissident Center Union and conservative MPs, Constantine II appointed an interim government under Ioannis Paraskevopoulos, and new elections were called for 28 May 1967. There were many indications that Papandreou's Center Union would emerge as the largest party, but would not be able to form a single-party government and would be forced into an alliance with the United Democratic Left, which was suspected by conservatives of being a proxy for the banned Communist Party of Greece. This possibility was used as a pretext for the coup.

[edit]A "Generals' Coup"

The junta principals in one of their earlier outings together as they appeared on Greek newspapers such as Vradini. Later these joint appearances would become much more rare and the military uniform would be discarded for civilian clothes, in an ultimately unsuccessful bid to look like, and become, mainstream politicians. Left to right: Pattakos, Papadopoulos and Makarezos

Greek historiography and the press have also hypothesized about a "Generals' Coup"[1], a coup that would have been deployed at the behest of the palace,[2] under the pretext of combatting communist subversion.[3] In the confusion of the first few hours it was actually thought by many outside observers that the King was behind the coup and many European newspapers carried headlines accusing Constantine of being the mastermind behind the events in Greece.[citation needed]
Before the elections that were scheduled for 28 May 1967, with expectations of a wide Centrist victory, a number of National Radical Union politicians feared that the policies of leftist members of the Center Union, such as Andreas Papandreou and Spyros Katsotas, would lead to a constitutional crisis. One such politician, George Rallis, has recounted he had proposed that, in case of such an "anomaly", the King should declare martial law, as the monarchist constitution permitted him. According to Rallis, Constantine was receptive to the idea.[4].

According to US diplomat John Day, the Americans also worried that due to the old age of Georgios Papandreou, Andreas Papandreou would have a very powerful role in the next government. According to Robert Keely and John Owens, American diplomats attached to the US Embassy in Greece at the time, Constantine asked US Ambassador Philip Talbot what would be the attitude of the US government to an extra-parliamentary solution to this problem. To this the embassy responded negatively in principle, adding however that "US reaction to such move cannot be determined in advance but would depend on circumstances at time". To this day, Constantine denies this. [5]

According to then US Ambassador Philip Talbot, after this communication, Constantine met with the army generals, who promised him that they would not take any action before the coming elections. However they were nervous by the proclamations of Andreas Papandreou and reserved to re-examine taking actions according to the results of the elections.[5]
In 1966 Constantine II of Greece sent his envoy Demetrios Bitsios to Paris on mission to convince Constantine Karamanlis to return to Greece and resume a role in Greek politics. According to uncorroborated claims made by the former monarch, in 2006 and after the deaths of the two men involved, Karamanlis replied to Bitsios that he would only return if the King imposed martial law, as was his constitutional prerogative.[6]

US journalist Cyrus L. Sulzberger has separately claimed that Karamanlis flew to New York to lobby US support from Lauris Norstad for a coup d'état in Greece that would establish a strong conservative regime under himself; Sulzberger alleges that Norstad declined to involve himself in such affairs.[3] Sulzberger's account, which unlike that of the former King was delivered during the lifetime of those implicated (Karamanlis and Norstad), rested solely on the authority of his and Norstad's word. When, in 1997, the former King reiterated Sulzberger's allegations, Karamanlis stated that he "will not deal with the former king's statements because both their content and attitude are unworthy of comment". [7]

The deposed King's adoption of Sulzberger's claims against Karamanlis was castigated by the left-leaning media, typically critical of Karamanlis, as "shameless" and "brazen".[7] It bears noting that, at the time, the former King referred exclusively to Sulzberger's account, to support the theory of a planned coup by Karamanlis, and made no mention of the alleged 1966 meeting with Bitsios, which he would refer to only after both participants had died and could not respond.

As it turned out, the constitutional crisis did not originate either from the political parties, or from the Palace, but from middle-rank army putschists.

[edit]The coup d'état of 21 April

The junta members.

This section does not cite any references or sources.
Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed. (August 2008)

On 21 April 1967, (just weeks before the scheduled elections), a group of right-wing army officers led by Brigadier Stylianos Pattakos and Colonels George Papadopoulos and Nikolaos Makarezos seized power in a coup d'etat. The colonels were able to quickly seize power by using surprise and confusion. Pattakos was commander of the Armour Training Centre (Greek: Κέντρο Εκπαίδευσης Τεθωρακισμένων, ΚΕΤΘ), based in Athens. The coup leaders placed tanks in strategic positions in Athens, effectively gaining complete control of the city. At the same time, a large number of small mobile units were dispatched to arrest leading politicians and authority figures, as well as many ordinary citizens suspected of left-wing sympathies, according to lists prepared in advance. One of the first to be arrested was Lieutenant General Gregorios Spandidakis, Commander-in-Chief of the Greek Army.

The conspirators were known to Spantidakis. Indeed, he was instrumental in bringing some of them to Athens, to use in a coup he and other leading Army generals had been planning, in an attempt to prevent George Papandreou's victory in the upcoming election and the Communist takeover that would, supposedly, follow it. The colonels succeeded in persuading Spandidakis to join them and he issued orders activating an action plan (the "Prometheus" plan) that had been previously drafted as a response for a hypothetical Communist uprising (see Operation Gladio). Under the command of paratrooper Lieutenant Colonel Kostas Aslanides, the LOK (see above) took control of the Greek Defence Ministry while Brigadier General Stylianos Pattakos gained control over communication centers, the parliament, the royal palace, and according to detailed lists, arrested over 10,000 people. Since orders came from a legal source, commanders and units not involved in the conspiracy automatically obeyed them. Many of the arrested were held during the first days at the Phaliron race track and some of them were executed in cold blood by young army officers.
By the early morning hours the whole of Greece was in the hands of the colonels. All leading politicians, including acting Prime Minister Panagiotis Kanellopoulos, had been arrested and were held incommunicado by the conspirators. Phillips Talbot, the US ambassador in Athens, disapproved of the military coup, complaining that it represented "A rape of democracy", to which Jack Maury, the CIA chief of station in Athens, answered, "How can you rape a whore?"[citation needed] The Papadopoulos' junta attempted to re-engineer the Greek political landscape by coup.

[edit]The role of the King
Main article: Constantine II of Greece

King Constantine II surrounded by the junta Government at the swearing-in ceremony of the dictators.

When the tanks rolled on to Athens streets on 21 April, the legitimate National Radical Union government, of which Rallis was a member, asked King Constantine to immediately mobilise the state against the coup; he declined to do so, and swore in the dictators as the legitimate government of Greece, while asserting that he was "certain they had acted in order to save the country".

The three plot leaders visited Constantine in his residence in Tatoi, which they circled with tanks, effectively preventing any form of resistance. The King wrangled with the colonels and initially dismissed them, ordering them to return with Spantidakis. Later in the day he took it upon himself to go the Ministry of National Defence, located north of Athens city centre, where all the coup leaders were gathered. The King had a discussion with Kanellopoulos, who was detained there, and with leading generals. This was a pointless exercise, since Kanellopoulos was a prisoner whilst the generals had no real power, as was evident from the shouting of lower and middle-ranking officers, refusing to obey orders and clamouring for a new government under Spantidakis.[citation needed]

The King finally relented and decided to co-operate, claiming to this day that he was isolated and did not know what else to do. He has since claimed that he was trying to gain time to organise a counter-coup and oust the Junta. He did organise such a counter-coup; however, the fact that the new government had a legal sanction, in that it had been appointed by the legitimate head of state, played an important role in the coup's success. The King was later to regret bitterly his decision. For many Greeks, it served to identify him indelibly with the coup and certainly played an important role in the final decision to abolish the monarchy, sanctioned by the 1974 referendum.

The only concession the King could achieve was to appoint a civilian as prime minister, rather than Spantidakis. Konstantinos Kollias, a former Attorney General of the Areios Pagos, was chosen. He was a well-known royalist and had even been disciplined under the Papandreou government for meddling in the investigation on the murder of MP Gregoris Lambrakis. Kollias was little more than a figurehead and real power rested with the army, and especially Papadopoulos, who emerged as the coup's strong man and became Minister of Defence and Minister of the Government's Presidency. Other coup members occupied key posts.

Up until then constitutional legitimacy had been preserved, since under the then-Greek Constitution the King could appoint whomever he wanted as prime minister, as long as Parliament endorsed the appointment with a vote of confidence or a general election was called. It was this government, sworn-in in the early evening hours of 21 April, that formalised the coup. It adopted a "Constituent Act", an amendment tantamount to a revolution, canceling the elections and effectively abolishing the constitution, which would be replaced later. In the meantime, the government was to rule by decree. Since traditionally such Constituent Acts did not need to be signed by the Crown, the King never signed it, permitting him to claim, years later, that he had never signed any document instituting the junta. Critics claim that Constantine II did nothing to prevent the government (and especially his chosen prime minster Kollias) from legally instituting the authoritarian government to come. This same government formally published and enforced a decree, already proclaimed on radio as the coup was in progress, instituting military law. Constantine claimed he never signed that decree either.

[edit]The King's counter-coup

The former King Constantine of Greece shaking the hand of Georgios Papadopoulos. In the background a smiling Stylianos Pattakos.
From the outset, the relationship between King Constantine II and the Colonels was an uneasy one. The colonels were not willing to share power with anyone, whereas the young King, like his father before him, was used to playing an active role in politics and would never consent to being a mere figurehead, especially in a military administration. Although the colonels' strong anti-communist, pro-NATO and pro-Western views appealed to the United States, fearful of domestic and international public opinion, President of the United States Lyndon B. Johnson told Constantine, in a visit to Washington, D.C. in early autumn of 1967, that it would be best to replace that government with another one.[citation needed] Constantine took that as an encouragement to organise a counter-coup and it was probably meant as one, although no direct help or involvement of the US was forthcoming.

The King finally decided to launch his counter-coup on 13 December 1967. Since Athens was effectively in the hands of the junta militarily, Constantine decided to fly to the small northern city of Kavala. There he hoped to be among troops loyal only to him. The vague plan he and his advisors had conceived was to form a unit that would advance on and take Thessaloniki. Constantine planned to install an alternative administration there. International recognition, which he believed to be forthcoming, as well as internal pressure from the fact that Greece would have been split in two governments would, the King hoped, force the junta to resign, leaving the field clear for him to return triumphant to Athens.
In the early morning hours of 13 December, the King boarded the royal plane, together with Queen Anne-Marie of Greece, their two baby children Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark and Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece, his mother Frederika of Hanover and his sister, Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark. Constantine also took with him Prime Minister Kollias. At first, things seemed to be going according to plan. Constantine was well received in Kavala which, militarily, was under the command of a general loyal to him. The Air Force and Navy, both strongly royalist and not involved in the 1967 coup, immediately declared for him and mobilised. Another of Constantine's generals effectively cut all communication between Athens and northern Greece.

However, the King's plans were overly bureaucratic, naïvely supposing that orders from a commanding general would automatically be obeyed. Further, the King was obsessive about avoiding "bloodshed", even where the junta would be the attacker. Instead of attempting to drum up the widest popular support, hoping for spontaneous pro-democracy risings in most towns, the King preferred to let his generals put together the necessary force for advancing on Thessaloniki in strict compliance with military bureaucracy.[citation needed] The King made no attempt to contact politicians, even local ones, and even took care to include in his proclamation a paragraph condemning communism, lest anyone should get the wrong idea.

In the circumstances, rather than the King managing to put together a force and advancing on Thessaloniki, middle-ranking pro-junta officers neutralised and arrested his royalist generals and took command of their units, which subsequently put together a force to advance on Kavala to arrest the King. The junta, not at all shaken by the loss of their figurehead premier, ridiculed the King by announcing that he was hiding "from village to village". Realising that the counter coup had failed, Constantine fled Greece on board the royal plane, taking his family and helpless Prime Minister with him. They landed in Rome early in the morning of 14 December. Constantine remained in exile all through the rest of military rule (although nominally he continued as King until 1 June 1973) and was never to return to Greece as King.

[edit]The Regency

Georgios Papadopoulos with Phaedon Gizikis on his right and Dimitrios Ioannides on his left. Ioannides and Gizikis overthrew Papadopoulos in a later coup. Picture, published in major Greek newspapers such as Vradini, shows them before the coup when they were in friendly terms. It establishes the warm relationship between Papadopoulos and the other two and provides an understanding of the measure of betrayal Papadopoulos felt when toppled by the other two.

The flight of the King and Prime Minister to Italy left Greece with no legal government or head of state. This did not concern the military junta. Instead the Revolutionary Council, composed of Pattakos, Papadopoulos and Makarezos, issued a notice in the Government Gazette appointing another member to the military administration, Major General Georgios Zoitakis, as Regent. Zoitakis then appointed Papadopoulos Prime Minister. This became the only government of Greece after the failure of the King's attempted coup, as the King was unwilling to set up an alternative administration in exile. The Regent's position was later confirmed under the 1968 Constitution, although the exiled King never officially recognised, or acknowledged, the Regency.

In a legally controversial move, even under the junta's own Constitution, the Cabinet voted on 21 March 1972 to oust Zoitakis and replace him with Papadopoulos, thus combining the offices of Regent and Prime Minister. It was thought Zoitakis was problematic and interfered too much with the military. The King's portrait remained on coins, in public buildings, etc., but slowly, the military was chipping away at the institution of the monarchy: the royal family's tax immunity was abolished, the complex network of royally managed charities was brought under direct state control, the royal arms were removed from coins, the Navy and Air Force were no longer "Royal" and the newspapers were usually banned from publishing the King's photo or any interviews.

During this period, resistance against the colonels' rule became better organized among exiles in Europe and the United States. In addition to the expected opposition from the left, the colonels found themselves under attack by constituencies that had traditionally supported past right-wing regimes: pro-monarchists supporting Constantine; businessmen concerned over international isolation; the middle class facing an economic downturn after 1971.[citation needed] There was also considerable political infighting within the junta. Still, up until 1973 the junta appeared in firm control of Greece, and not likely to be ousted by violent means.
[edit]Characteristics of the Junta

[edit]Ideology

The colonels preferred to call the coup d'état of 21 April a "revolution to save the nation" ("Ethnosotirios Epanastasis"). Their official justification for the coup was that a "communist conspiracy" had infiltrated the bureaucracy, academia, the press, and even the military, to such an extent that drastic action was needed to protect the country from communist takeover. Thus, the defining characteristic of the Junta was its staunch anti-Communism. They used the term anarcho-communist (Greek: αναρχοκομμουνιστές, anarchokommounistes) to describe all leftists. In a similar vein the junta attempted to steer Greek public opinion not only by propaganda but also by inventing new words and slogans, such as old-partyism (palaiokommatismos) to discredit parliamentary democracy, or Greece for Christian Greeks (Ellas Ellinon Christianon) to underscore its ideology.

The junta's main ideological spokesmen included Georgios Georgalas and journalist Savvas Konstantopoulos, both former Marxists. Its propaganda often relied on fabricated evidence and fictional enemies of the state.[citation needed] Atheism and pop culture, such as rock music and the hippies, were also seen as parts of this conspiracy. Nationalism and Christianity were widely promoted but never really enforced.
[edit]Sources of support and sociocultural policies

M48 Patton tank in the streets of Athens on 17 November 1973

To gain support for his rule, Papadopoulos projected an image that appealed to some key segments of Greek society. The son of a poor but educated rural family, he was educated at the prestigious Hellenic Military Academy. Papadopoulos allowed substantial social and cultural freedoms to all social classes, but political oppression and censorship were at times heavy handed, especially in areas deemed sensitive by the junta, such as political activities, and politically related art, literature, film and music. Kostas Gavras's film Z and Mikis Theodorakis's music, among others, were never officially allowed even during the most relaxed times of the dictatorship, and an index of prohibited songs, literature and art was kept.

[edit]Western music and film

Remarkably, after some initial hesitation and as long as they were not deemed to be politically damaging to the junta, junta censors allowed wide access to Western music and films. Even the then racy, West German film Helga (German: Helga. Vom Werden des menschlichen Lebens, Greek: Helga, η ιστορία μίας γυναίκας), a 1967 *** education documentary featuring a live birth scene, had no trouble making its debut in Greece just like in any other Western country.[8] Moreover, the film was only restricted for those under 13 years of age. In 1971 Robert Hartford-Davis was allowed by the junta to film the classic horror film Incense for the Damned, starring Peter Cushing and Patrick Macnee and suitably featuring Chryseis (Χρυσηίς), a beguiling Greek siren with vampire tendencies, on the Greek island of Hydra.[9][10][11] In 1970 the film Woodstock was shown all over Greece, with reports of arrests and disturbances especially in Athens as many youths flocked to see the film and filled theatres to capacity, while many others were left outside.[12][13]

Meanwhile at Matala, Crete, a hippie colony which had been living in the caves since the 1960s, was never disturbed. Singer songwriter Joni Mitchell was inspired to write the song "Carey" after staying in the Matala caves with the hippie community in 1971. Hippie colonies also existed in other popular tourist spots such as "Paradise Beach" in Mykonos.[14]
[edit]Greek rock

Western music broadcasts were, for a period, limited from the airwaves in favour of martial music, an indispensable part of any developing coup, but this was subsequently relaxed. In addition, pop/rock music programmes such as the one hosted by famous Greek music/radio/television personality and promoter Nico Mastorakis were very popular throughout the dictatorship years both on radio and television.[15] Most Western record sales were similarly not restricted. In fact, even rock concerts and tours were allowed such as by the then popular rock groups Socrates Drank the Conium and Nostradamos.[16][17] Another pop group "Poll" was a pioneer of Greek pop music in the late 1960s. Its lead singer and composer was Robert Williams, who was later joined, in 1971, by Kostas Tournas.[18][19] Poll enjoyed a number of nationwide hits, such as "Anthrope Agapa (Humankind Love One Another)", an anti-war song, composed by Tournas and "Ela Ilie Mou (Come, My Sun)", composed by Tournas, Williams),[20] Tournas later pursued a solo career and in 1972 produced the progressive psychedelic hit solo album Aperanta Chorafia (Greek: Απέραντα Χωράφια, Infinite Fields).[21] He wrote and arranged the album using an orchestra and a rock group ("Ruth") combination.[21][22]

While the lyrics of "Poll" were composed exclusively in Greek, the band's name was an English word rendered in Greek characters, Πολλ. The dictionary definition of poll, a sampling or collection of opinions on a subject or the voting at an election, apparently did not register with the Greek military junta censors.

Songwriter and troubadour Dionysis Savvopoulos, who was initially imprisoned by the regime, nevertheless rose to great popularity and produced a number of influential and highly politically allegorical, especially against the junta, albums during the period, including To Perivoli tou Trellou (Greek: Το Περιβόλι του Τρελλού, The Madman's Orchard), Ballos (Greek: Μπάλλος, Name of Greek folk dance) and Vromiko Psomi (Greek: Βρώμικο Ψωμί, Dirty Bread).[13]

[edit]Agriculture

The farmers were Papadopoulos' natural constituency and were more likely to support him, seeing him, because of his rural roots, as one of their own. He cultivated this relationship by appealing to them, calling them the backbone of the people (Greek: η ραχοκοκαλιά του λαού) and cancelling all agricultural loans.[23] By further insisting on promoting, but not really enforcing for fear of middle-class backlash, religion and patriotism, he further appealed to the simpler ideals of rural Greece and strengthened his image as people's champion among farmers, who tended to ridicule the middle class. Furthermore, the regime promoted a policy of economic development in rural areas, which were mostly neglected by the previous governments, that had focused largely on urban industrial development.

[edit]Urban classes

Papadopoulos was less likely to appeal to the largely civilian and city-oriented middle class, since he was a military man from a rural background. Yet, the political crisis of 1965–1967 led some citizens to entertain the notion that any stable government, even a military one, was better than the preceding chaos. In addition, he had promised from the beginning that the dictatorship would not be permanent, and that when political order was established democratic rule would return,[24] a pledge, as events would later show, was not shared by the hardliners, especially Ioannides.[24] On top of that, his promotion of tourism and other beneficial economic measures and the fact that, with the notable exceptions of political freedoms and press censorship, he did not otherwise substantially restrict the middle class, had the effect of assisting the junta in establishing its control over the country by gaining, at least initially, the reluctant acquiescence of some key segments of the population.

[edit]External relations

The military government was given at least tacit support by the United States as a Cold War ally, due to its proximity to the Eastern European Soviet bloc, and the fact that the previous Truman administration had given the country millions of dollars in economic aid to discourage Communism. US support for the junta is claimed to be the cause of rising anti-Americanism in Greece during and following the junta's undemocratic rule.[25] Greece's allies in Western Europe were split in their attitudes toward the Junta. The Scandinavian countries as well as the Netherlands took a very hostile stance towards the Junta and filed a complaint before the Human Rights Commission of the Council of Europe in September 1967. Greece however opted for leaving the Council of Europe voluntarily in December 1969 before a verdict was handed down. Countries such as the United Kingdom and the Federal Republic of Germany on the other hand were voicing criticism about Greece's human rights record but supported the countries continued membership in the Council of Europe and NATO because of the country's strategic value for the western alliance.

[Elfstone44]

Quote:
I am acusing this group of cooperation with Palestinian terrorist groups and a number of other international terrorist groups; this is well documented in the Greek and European press.

Is it? Where?

I forgot to answer this question from Achilles. Google this combination of words: "Carlos the Jackal" + "ELA". It will turn up the attacks conducted by ELA in Greece working with the Carlos organization and the East German Stasi for Libyan blood money. Several ELA members are in prison for this...search "Konstantinos Agapiou." You'll find plenty of Greek and European articles about this. That will get you started.

You'll also find interesting connections to the German Red Army Faction (Baader Meinhoff), Revolutionaern Zellen-international faction, to the Basques, to the Red Brigades and to the Italian Autonomea Operaea, and a few others. You'll note that the Revolutionary Cells in Germany conducted an attack dedicated to Christo Kasimis.

As for the PFLP, Abu Nidal Organization, PFLP-GC, mercenary activity for Libya and Iraq, Hawari organization and Fatah...I'll let you dig this up yourself. As I mentioned above, start with Lesperoglou and his relationship with the PFLP in Thessoloniki in the late 1970's. Look at Christoforos Marinos and his relationship with Hawari. etc. Its an interesting chapter in Greek (and European) history. Once again, if there is interest, I'll write something up on Wadi Haddad and his relationship to the European terrorist groups from about 1967 until his death in 1978. (its worth seeing "Munich" - the film - again.)

[Elfstone44]

Well,not all. Just diplomats, foreign officers, military officers etc. You know better than me that those groups are prime targets of extremists in practically every country. Greece has never been an exception to this rule.

Yet, its true that i have issues with American diplomats, especially Republicans.

As for American tourists, what can i say? Tourism experts say you are stingy. Especially after the dollar/euro exchange rate twist. I'll go with the Germans.


Look Punk, I just reread one of your posts and it is CRAP:

Killing American "diplomats, foreign officers, military officers, and businessmen IS NOT ACCEPTED ANYWHERE. You are an emotionally deprived sick puppy if you think so.

And, in the Military, Foreign Service etc. there are no Democrats or Republicans, just American civil servants serving the people of the United States. For your punk butt to imply anything else, that killing Republicans is ok and Democrats not ok, means you need to get back on your tranquillizers.

As for American tourists, I paid E4.5 in Syntagma square for an iced coffee last summer..about $7.00 for something I paid 50 drachma for 15 years earlier. I can't afford to go back to Athens. And your comment makes you look petty and parsimonious..i.e. "who cares if they get killed, they don't tip."

I've tried to add some comments from a number of years of observing the Greek anarchist scene in as dispassionate a manner as someone who was targetted by a Greek terrorist group can. You are just vomiting B.S. Go read your precious anarchist philosophers and Satre, and Negri and then get your butt out of your chair out onto the street and see how brave you are, PUNK.

[achilles]

Killing American "diplomats, foreign officers, military officers, and businessmen IS NOT ACCEPTED ANYWHERE. You are an emotionally deprived sick puppy if you think so.

I would be so, if i were thinking the way you say. Show me EXACTLY where i say that killings are accepted. You are either twisting my posts deliberately or dont understand what i mean. What i said is that diplomats et al, are targets for extremists almost everywhere. I AKNOWLEDGE that RISK and realize its existence. Where do i justify or accept death?


And, in the Military, Foreign Service etc. there are no Democrats or Republicans, just American civil servants serving the people of the United States. For your punk butt to imply anything else, that killing Republicans is ok and Democrats not ok, means you need to get back on your tranquillizers.

You certainly seem to need a tranquilizer...

Did i say that killing Reps is OK but Dems is not? Are you sure you dont need professional help? It was an ironic comment aiming to your more aggressive republican policy. Especially the one during the last 8 years towards Greece. I said ironically i have ISSUES with diplomats employed by republican governments (focus on the lates one), not that i want them dead. Pull your act together.


As for American tourists, I paid E4.5 in Syntagma square for an iced coffee last summer..about $7.00 for something I paid 50 drachma for 15 years earlier. I can't afford to go back to Athens. And your comment makes you look petty and parsimonious..i.e. "who cares if they get killed, they don't tip."

Its called IRONY!! IRONY :lol: Sarcasm if you like...relax.


I've tried to add some comments from a number of years of observing the Greek anarchist scene in as dispassionate a manner as someone who was targetted by a Greek terrorist group can. You are just vomiting B.S. Go read your precious anarchist philosophers and Satre, and Negri and then get your butt out of your chair out onto the street and see how brave you are, PUNK.

Go back to my previous post and you might get a clue on where i stand ideologically. Try reading what it IS, not what YOU would want it to be.

[achilles]

Can you describe what do you mean by "swedish social institutions" and "japanese foreign policy"?

That would take two quite lengthy essays. I'll tag it as follows:

Swedish social institutions:I mainly had in mind a viable health care system, free of charge, that does not exclude large social groups from its services and certainly does not work against private hospitals. Environmental institutions are also present and well-functioning in Sweden. Such institutions sure have a special place in my ideal world.

Japanese foreign policy: One of non-aggression and unjustified expansionist wars based on false premises.One that respects international regimes.

[valtrex]

Look Punk, I just reread one of your posts and it is CRAP:

Killing American "diplomats, foreign officers, military officers, and businessmen IS NOT ACCEPTED ANYWHERE. You are an emotionally deprived sick puppy if you think so.

And, in the Military, Foreign Service etc. there are no Democrats or Republicans, just American civil servants serving the people of the United States. For your punk butt to imply anything else, that killing Republicans is ok and Democrats not ok, means you need to get back on your tranquillizers.

As for American tourists, I paid E4.5 in Syntagma square for an iced coffee last summer..about $7.00 for something I paid 50 drachma for 15 years earlier. I can't afford to go back to Athens. And your comment makes you look petty and parsimonious..i.e. "who cares if they get killed, they don't tip."

I've tried to add some comments from a number of years of observing the Greek anarchist scene in as dispassionate a manner as someone who was targetted by a Greek terrorist group can. You are just vomiting B.S. Go read your precious anarchist philosophers and Satre, and Negri and then get your butt out of your chair out onto the street and see how brave you are, PUNK.
Mr Elfstone,
You're assaulting Achilles personally while twisting his views and providing information with a slant regarding Greece. You're using Wikipedia as credible (!!!) source of information and your views express nothing more and nothing else than the one-sided views of the American Embassy in Athens. Therefore, please leave this thread because I do not want your "cheap" US propaganda to be regarded as THE truth by the other members of the forum. I prefer to let your views descend into limbo.
With respect.
Greetings from Greece

[achilles]

To those interested. This includes Elfstone44.


Alexis Papachelas's The Rape of Greek Democracy: The American Factor, 1947-1967 is a splendidly researched, soundly reasoned, and tightly written investigation of the roots of the crisis in Greece's hybrid "crown democracy," of the plot that led to its overthrow, and of American involvement in what Margaret Papandreou aptly called the "Nightmare in Athens." In writing his history of Greece in the 1960s, Papachelas's primary sources are the records created by extremely interested foreign observers: the diplomats of the United States Foreign Service.

I guess Papachelas didn't interview you Elfstone. Thankfully. The book pretty much says it all. Too bad i have no electronic source.

This from your very own "diplomatic" sources:

The CIA and the Greek military began to work closely, especially after Greece joined NATO in 1952. Greece was a vital link in the NATO defense arc which extended from the eastern border of Iran to the northmost point in Norway. Greece in particular was seen as being in risk, having experienced a Communist insurgency.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967-1974

It was in the late 40's / early 50's when the CIA started recruiting Greek snitches. Papadopoulos was on of them. He then became head of the state. Killed quite a few, tortured even more.

Phillips Talbot, the US ambassador in Athens, disapproved of the military coup, complaining that it represented "A rape of democracy", to which Jack Maury, the CIA chief of station in Athens, answered, "How can you rape a whore?"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967-1974


The CIA's Secret Files on Greece
by Alexis Papakhelas

[Greek Text Translated by FBIS] These days, in the storerooms of the US Government Printing Office, in a poor district of Washington, you will find stacks of copies of a book with a wine-colored cover and the title: "Foreign Relations of the United States. Eastern Mediterranean 1964-1968". Under normal circumstances, you would already have been able to purchase it since February 2000, paying something under 50 dollars. What is preventing you? The CIA and the ban it has imposed on its publication.

What a fabulous institution CIA is.


On occasions, the CIA is obliged to publish data because of the legislation protecting the Freedom of Information. The author of this article had an experience related to this when he sued the US services for the publication of information concerning the period 1963-1967, which led to the declassification of CIA documents which showed its relations to [Greek military dictator] Yeoryios Papadhopoulos [1967-1973] and the detailed briefing regarding his team before the coup d'etat on 21 April [1967]. http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/gr081201.html

Despite the fact that most documents from the troubled period of 1964 to 1968 have already been declassified, CIA officers, certain diplomats and members of Congress are blocking the publication of the related volume on Greece, Cyprus and Turkey. The volume was printed and has been ready for circulation since February 2000. The competent cross-service committee discusses roughly every quarter on its fate and an excuse is always found for it to remain locked in the Government Printing Office storerooms. In 2000, CIA officers were deliberately delaying its publication, hoping (justifiably) that a Republican government would side with them against the documents being made public.

Truth sucks sometimes Elfstone44, am i right?

The 1967 coup in Greece by the CIA-backed military junta produced seven years of bloody repression in that country, as well as the CIA-planned 1974 coup against President Makarios of Cyprus. This prompted Turkey to invade and occupy the north of the island republic.http://globalresearch.ca/articles/JAN206A.html

Over the past fifty years, the CIA masterminded successful coups in Iran, Guatemala, the Congo, Indonesia, Iraq, Greece, Chile, Cyprus and Guyana. These coups' “blowback” negated the usefulness of “regime change” and, in most instances, had devastating results both for the countries concerned and US interests.http://globalresearch.ca/articles/JAN206A.html

Now allow me to log off, as i have more serious work to do instead of refuting propaganda, lies, inconsistencies or other BS, coming from someone whose credibility has indeed been flushed down the toilet.

Elfstone 44, i think the problem is what you choose to project and post here. Not what you know or understand. No? ;)

[TheEvian100]

Busted!! With a firebomb at his hand. :)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9633/2z5iypxcw5.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/4126/610xud6.jpg

He doesn't seem to be neither young, nor a typical, working-class enraged student.. More like a member of our own little Orange revolution of some 5.000 people all over the country. The vast majority of Greeks want to kick those people's asses, they are nazis, anarchofascist minorities who want to cling into power. Nevertheless they represent less than 8% of the public opinion

[achilles]

He doesn't seem to be neither young, nor a typical, working-class enraged student.. More like a member of our own little Orange revolution of some 5.000 people all over the country. The vast majority of Greeks want to kick those people's asses, they are nazis, anarchofascist minorities who want to cling into power. Nevertheless they represent less than 8% of the public opinion

Good news.
Most likely he is one of those freaks who are getting paid (i still cant figure out by who) to get the job done.

[Mr.Flint]

Achilles, globalresearch as a source? rofl

[TheEvian100]

Good news.
Most likely he is one of those freaks who are getting paid (i still cant figure out by who) to get the job done.

here's a detailed series of photographs p-)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9052/untitled2ke2.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9840/untitled3md5.jpg

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2332/untitled4fr9.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7106/untitled5ni1.jpg

[AK-Lover]

Too all the people who obviously don't understand the region and it's culture and who are leaving these genius comments like "what are they waiting for, shoot the ****ers!"
Example why the youth in most Balkan countries despise the police, these two from Serbia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/H0sFySAoQfQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/txbRSczJgaY

It's easy to speak for those of us who live in countries where police officers speak to you with good day, thank you, please etc.

[SBL]

Too all the people who obviously don't understand the region and it's culture and who are leaving these genius comments like "what are they waiting for, shoot the ****ers!"
Example why the youth in most Balkan countries despise the police, these two from Serbia:


It's easy to speak for those of us who live in countries where police officers speak to you with good day, thank you, please etc.
These videos are lacking some context.

[benbach]

its sad you know, a kid dies, so then people riot and hurt other people, i cant wait till someone else dies due to the riots, then the people rioting are just as guilty as the cops.

[AK-Lover]

Of course it's stupid to ruin and destroy your own towns and cities because in the end you are just hurting yourselves. But I wish people would try and understand different mentalities instead of just leaving totally un-insightful comments. There are always two sides to a story.

[SBL]

Of course it's stupid to ruin and destroy your own towns and cities because in the end you are just hurting yourselves. But I wish people would try and understand different mentalities instead of just leaving totally un-insightful comments. There are always two sides to a story.
If you could explain, it would be helpful.
I look at what's going on in Greece, and I see a case of the authorities forsaking their mandate to keep law and order for fear of being accused of reverting to old ways.

[AK-Lover]

If you could explain, it would be helpful.
I look at what's going on in Greece, and I see a case of the authorities forsaking their mandate to keep law and order for fear of being accused of reverting to old ways.

Of course I agree with you, that IS the problem. But is your solution for the police to open fire on these people, even if they are rioting/committing crimes I mean do you think that would help the situation in that particular country?

[Jobu]

I have lost some respect for Greece over this.

I think everybody has lost a lot of respect for Greece from this.

But that's what decades of mismanagement will do to a country. You have young adults coming out of college making $700/month with practically no hope of advancing anytime soon. They can't afford to move out of their parents' homes and basically sit there waiting to inherit the family property. The government, even Karamanlis's supposed center-right faction, have been running the place like a social experiment since 1974. Services are practically non-existent. New taxes are implemented seemingly with the aim of disrupting daily life as much as possible, corruption that makes Blago and the Chicago machine look like angels. Nothing gets done in Greece without an envelope full of cash.

So can I understand why young people would be upset and resort to rioting? Sure on some level. Is it a smart thing to do? Of course not. I understand them, but I also understand that they're morons. They are being used by the KKE and PASOK in order to overthrow the ND government. Imagine if these idiots put that kind of energy into working and creating profitable businesses.

[SBL]

Of course I agree with you, that IS the problem. But is your solution for the police to open fire on these people, even if they are rioting/committing crimes I mean do you think that would help the situation in that particular country?
I don't think anyone here was advocating a wholesale slaughter, but there has to a limit to what's tolerated for the sake of public safety and public goods. Throwing a Molotov at the cops is not only a direct assault on another human being, it's an assault on public safety. It's incumbent on the police to maintain this law and order, otherwise, what's the point of having police at all?

[DS73]

That would take two quite lengthy essays. I'll tag it as follows:

Swedish social institutions:I mainly had in mind a viable health care system, free of charge, that does not exclude large social groups from its services and certainly does not work against private hospitals. Environmental institutions are also present and well-functioning in Sweden. Such institutions sure have a special place in my ideal world.


Frankly I never bothered with Swedish social policies, as I don't find them any interesting or effective, but anyway some quick browsing gave me that number:

http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/2028/a/86040
"...This means that the total costs of health and medical
care in 2005 amounted to 9.1 per cent of GDP..."

Pretty much similar number to any other European country. So they are no more efficient, and I never heard about better quality of swedish health care either.
Should I care if I pay by extra taxes or buying obligatory insurance like on continent?
I wonder.

Environmental institutions there are not better than elsewhere in western Europe. More expensive probably. Is it a plus?



Japanese foreign policy: One of non-aggression and unjustified expansionist wars based on false premises.One that respects international regimes.Japan surrounded very serious part of its foreign policy to USA. They are officially under US millitary umbrella, they are blind supporters of american monetary machine, for example you can always expect their serious financial participation in any american project, like "rebuilding of Iraq" for example.

You're an elf. Sorry.

[Elfstone44]

For those interested in history, at one time I had a large database on various attacks in Athens for obvious reasons. I’ve still got some info but there is so much its just plain boring to put it together. But to put things into perspective and remind the users from where the current violence comes and what are the consequences, I’ll try to post some of the info, starting with Victims:

Victims of Greek Terrorism: 1975-2004; RIP - "Civilization is a Fragile Thing."

This is a partial list of victims killed in Greece by Greeks: I believe there are more: And note-it does not address dozens killed by Palestinian attacks in Greece during this period (there is much credible evidence that Greeks aided the Palestinians in some of these attacks - Patras being the most evident) or the planes hijacked from Athens Airport, or the one ship hijacked, etc. Looking dispassionately at the situation, there very well could have been 100 times more dead had the terrorists gotten things right. NOTE: A number of these attacks have not been solved.

The shooting attacks were brazen. The shooter would walk up to the target as he was coming out of his house in the morning, or shopping or going for coffee and gun him down. Attacks on Vehicles stuck in traffic by gunmen on motorcycles were common. Robert Judd is the only man so targerted who escaped-he was watching his mirror, saw the bike, saw the gun come out, accelerated and cut across the median and though wounded escaped. This doesn't count the numerous miraculous escapes by Greeks, and others. You'll see Prosecutors, Cops, Politicians, and Journalists were heavily targetted and plainly intimidated. If you need to ask why the arrested were acquited or why the usual suspects were never arrested in the first place, start with that intimidation. Greece is a small place; sometimes it was best to look the other way. If you want more info on these attacks, search the web using the name of the victim.

Date..........Target...................................................Dead/wounded................Nationality....Claim
31Dec04..Haralambos Amanatidis (Brit Milatt guard).....Shot- killed......................Greek.........No Claim (carefully planned to steal his sub-machine gun)
21Jan01...ND Deputy Mikhaloliakos............................IED-3 hurt; 1 dead............Greek.........No Claim
08Jun00...Brigadier Stephen Saunders........................Shot in his car-killed..........British........17N
10Dec97...Minister Vaso Papandreaou’s Office..............Bomb-1 dead, 1 hurt..........Greek.........Revolutionary Nuclei
28May97...Konstantinos Peratikos..............................Shot-killed........................Greek........17N
19Sep94....Police Bus..............................................IED-I police killed, 10 hurt...Greek........ELA
12Jul94.....Rhodes Hotel...........................................IED-6 hurt........................Greek........No Claim
11Jul94.....Rhodes Restaurant....................................IED-2 hurt........................Greek........ELA
04Jul94.....Omer Haluk Sipahioglou-Turk Diplomat........Shot-killed........................Turk.........17N
24Jan94.....Mihalis Vranopoulos (former Bank of Gr.).....Shot-killed.......................Greek.......17N
24Jan94....Nikolaos Griskpos (Vranopoulos’ driver)........Shot-hurt.........................Greek.......17N
21Dec92...Eleftherios Papadimitriou (MP).....................Shot-hurt.........................Greek.......17N
14Jul92....Ioannis Paliokrassas (Min of Finance)..........Rocket-1 killed, many hurt....Greek........17N
19Apr92...Ilias Koen (Psychiatrist)............................Shot-killed.........................Greek........Revolutionary Solidarity
26Feb92...Police MAT Bus....................................IED-1 bystander killed, 6 hurt...Greek........ELA/1May
20Nov91...Police Officers Shootout w/terrorists........Shot- 2 police wounded..........Greek........17N
02Nov91...Police Bus 1 cop killed, several hurt.........rocket/Grenade-1 cop killed....Greek........17N
07Oct91....Cetin Giorgu (Turk Diplomat)..................Shot-killed...........................Turk..........17N
16Jul91.....4 Turkish Diplomats................................IED-4 wounded...................Turk..........17N
24Jun91....Police Officers........................................IED-6 wounded...................Greek.......ELA/1May
12Mar91....USAF Tsgt Ronald Stewart........................IED-killed..........................USA..........17N (Note: this was the only attack in Europe carried out
............... in support of Saddam Hussain. There has been suspicion that it was connected to the Palestinian bombing in Patras shortly thereafter.)
20Nov90....Vardis Vardinogiannis (industrialist)...........Rocket-several wounded......Greek.......17N
19Feb90.....Marios Maratos (Doctor)..........................Shot-killed.........................Greek.......Revolutionary Solidarity
21Oct90.....Mitsotakis speaking engagement hall..........IED-bomber killed..............Greek.......No Claim (bomb exploded prematurely killing the bomber)
26Sep89.....Pavlos Bakogiannnis (MP)........................Shot-killed........................Greek.......17N
30Jun89.....Supreme Council, Personnel Selection........IED-2 cops killed, 1 hurt......Greek.......Revolutionary Nuclei
08May89....Giorgos Petsos (MPO).............................VBIED-several hurt..............Greek.......17N
23Jan89.....Anastasios Vernardos (Dep Prosecutor)......Shot-killed.........................Greek.......17N
18Jan89.....Pahagiotis Tarasouleas (Dep Prosecutor)....Shot-hurt...........................Greek.......17N
10Jan89.....Konstantinos Androulidakis (Prosecutor).....Shot-killed.........................Greek.......17N
28Jun88.....Capt William Nordeen (USN)....................IED-killed...........................USA.........17N
19Mar88.....Oscar’s Pub (US Military hangout).............IED-14 hurt........................Greek/USA..ELA/Carlos Organization
01Mar88.....Alexandros Athanasiadis (businessman).....Shot-killed........................Greek........17N
10Aug87.....USAF Personnel.....................................IED-11 hurt........................USA..........17N
29Jun87.....Georgios Raftopoulos (GSEE Union Leader) Shot-hurt..........................Greek........1May
24Apr87.....USAF Shuttle bus...................................IED-17 hurt........................USA..........17N
05Feb87....Dr. Zaharias Kapsalakis (Physician)...........Shot-hurt...........................Greek........17N
26Nov85...Nikos Georgakopolos (Police)....................IED-killed..........................Greek........17N
08Apr85....Demetrios Angelopoulos (Businessman)......Shot-killed.........................Greek.......17N
04Apr85....Georgios Theofanopoulos (Prosecutor)........IED-killed..........................Greek.......Anti-State Struggle
21Feb85....Nikolaos Momferatos (Publisher)...............Shot-killed.........................Greek.......17N
21Feb85....P. Rousetis (Momferatos’driver)................Shot-killed.........................Greek.......17N
02Feb85....Bobby’s Bar (US Military hangout).............IED-78 hurt........................Greek/USA..ELA/Carlos Organization
03Apr84....Msgt Robert Judd....................................Shot in his car-wounded......USA............17N (Only person targeted by a motorcycle to escape)
15Nov83....Capt George Tsantes (USN).....................Shot in his car-killed...........USA............17N
15Nov83....Nikolaos Veloutsos (Tsantes’ driver).........Shot in his car-killed............Greek.........17N
13Apr83....Saudi Ambassador.................................VBIED-hurt.........................Saudi..........ELA/Carlos Organization
19Mar83....George Athanasiades (Publisher).............Shot-killed.........................Greek..........Anti-Military Struggle
22Jul81.....Evgenia Angelikoussi, D. Malatsis........Shot/Genaded-2 killed, 70 hurt...Greek/Isreael..PFLP/ELA
16Jan80....Sotirios Stamoulis (Police).....................Shot-killed..........................Greek...........17N
31Jan79....Petros Babalis (Police)..........................Shot-killed..........................Greek...........17N
14Dec76....Evangelos Malios (Police)......................Shot-killed..........................Greek............17N
23Dec75....Richard Welch (US CIA Station Chief)......Shot-killed.........................USA..............17N

[Elfstone44]

Greek terrorist/anarchist attacks on Europeans – 1990-2001

For Europeans interested in knowing whether they are targets of Greek anarcho-Leftist groups, here is a partial list…compiled before I got bored. You’ll get the picture. Sorry if a couple of guys think this is propaganda; At least they haven't brought up Roswell...yet. But this will put the Anarchist movement somewhat in perspective. I've other lists as well including lists of attacks by varioius Anarchist groups. The names of Greek Anarchists are pretty imaginative; but they have little to do with "organization." ELA, 17N, 1May, RevNuc are another matter---they are deadly.

Date……..Country……..target………………….details…………………….claimed by

22Jul01…….Italy…….....Embassy Vehicle………..Arson……………….......Team Globalized Solidarity
22Jul01…….Italy….......Fiat Dealer………………...Arson……………….......Team Globalized Solidarity
22Jul01…….Italy…….....Business Vehicle………..Arson……………….......Team Globalized Solidarity
03Jun01……Turkey…....Textile Trucks…………...Grenades…………….....Armored Fighters
05Apr01……British…....HSBC Bank…………….....Arson….……………......Anarchist Attack Group
05Apr01……Dutch……...AMRO Bank……………....Arson……………….......Anarchist Attack Group
05Jan01…….Turkish…..Commercil Attache…….Arson……………….......Crazed Gazakia
12Nov00……British…….Barclays Bank…………...Bomb……………….......Revolutionary Nuclei
26Sep00…..Belgium…...Business Vehicle……….Arson……………….......No Claim
18Sep00……Germany….Embassy Vehicle……….Arson……………….......Anarchist Faction for Subversion
04Sep00……British……..Jaguar Dealer…………...Bomb………………........No Claim
02Sep00……Turkey…….Embassy Vehicle………..Arson………………........Black Star
31Aug00……Poland…….Embassy Vehicle………...Arson……………….......Black Star
25Aug00……Yugoslav…Embassy Vehicle………...Arson………………........Anarchist Struggle
17Aug00…….Italy………Embassy Vehicle………...Arson………………........Black Star
08Aug00…….France……Business Vehicle………...Arson……………….......Black Star
05Jul00……..Turkey……Turkish Consulate……...Molotov…………….......No claim
05Jul00……..Italy……….Pirelli Tire Store………...Dynamite………….......No claim
19Jun00……UN………....Vehicle………………….......Arson………………........Black Star
08Jun00……British…….Brig. Stephen Saunders…Shot-murdered……...17N
01May00…..Italy……….Pirelli Tire Store………....IED………………….........No claim
5Apr00…….Germany….Miele Company…………...Incendiary………….....Anti-War Cells
29Mar00…..Germany...Embassy Vehicles……...Incendiary……………....Overthrow Anarchist Faction
23Jan00……Italy………...Embassy Vehicle………..Incendiary……………....Nov 19 Anarchist Faction
23Jan00……Germany….School bus………………....Incendiary……………....Street Revolutionaries
06Dec99…..EU…………...Vehicle………………….......Incendiary……………...No Claim
17Nov99….Germany……Cultural Center…………...Vandalized……………...Anarchist demonstrators
17Nov99…..Cyprus……..Bank of Cyprus…………..Vandalized……………....Anarchist demonstrators
04Nov99…..France………Renault Car Dealer……..Incendiary……………....Anti-State Action
14Sep99…..Albania…….Embassy Vehicle………...Arson…………………......Popular Revolutionary Front
14Sep99…..Russia………Embassy Vehicle………...Arson…………………......Popular Revolutionary Front
14Jul99…..Cyprus………Embassy Vehicle………....Arson…………………......No Claim
11Jul99…..Albania………Embassy Vehicle………....Arson…………………......No Clain
22May99…..Dutch………Nederlande Insurance…..Shooting………………...Red Line
16May99…..Germany...Ambassador’s Home…...Rocket…………………....17N
07May99…..Dutch……….Ambassador’s Home…...Bomb…………………......17N
05May99…..British………Midland Bank…………......Rocket……………….......17N
05May99…..France………BNP Bank…………….........Rocket………………….....17N
02Apr99…..UN…………….UN Office…………….........Shooting……………….....Red Line
04Apr99…..Italy………….Embassy………………........Vandalized…………….....Demonstrators
04Apr99…..EU…………….Office…………………..........Vandalized…………….....Demonstrators
04Apr99…..NATO…………NATO Office…………........Vandalized………….......Demonstrators
04Apr99…..France………French Embassy……….......Molotov……………….....Demonstrators
04Apr99…..British………British Embassy………......Vandalized…………........Demonstrators
26Mar99…..British………Ambassador’s Home……...Vandalized…………......Demonstrators
08Feb99…..Turkey………Turkish Consulate…….…...Bomb……………….........Hawks of Thrace
29Dec98…..British………Barclay’s Bank…………......Bomb……………….........Revolutionary Nuclei
24Oct98…..Germany…..Mercedes Car Dealer…....Vandalized…………......No Claim
14Sep98…..British……...British Consul, Thessaloniki…Bomb………………....No Claim
27Aug98…..France……...Banque Nationale de Paris….Arson……………….....No Claim
27Jul98…..Italy……….....Fiat Dealer (12 cars)…………Arson……………….......Arsonists of Social Consensus
09Jun98…..Germany…...School Bus…………….........Arson………………........Cells of Proletarian Resistance
31May98…..France……….Embassy Vehicle………......Arson………………........Arsonists of Conscience
21May98…..British……….Barclay’s Bank………….......Arson………………........Autonomous Cells of Rebel Action
16May98…..Turkey………Embassy Vehicle…………....Arson……………….........Arsonists of Conscience
16May98…..EU…………….Offices……………………........Arson………………..........Arsonists of Conscience
03May98…..Hungary…...Embassy Vehicle………......Arson……………….........Arsonists of Conscience
03May98…..Yugoslav……Embassy Vehicle………......Arson……………….........Arsonists of Conscience
01May98…..France……...Commercial Attache Office…Arson………………......Arsonists of Conscience
25Apr98…..Albania……….Embassy Vehicle…………....Arson……………….........No Claim
17Apr98…..Italy……………Embassy Vehicle………….....Arson……………….........Arsonists of Conscience
30Mar98…..France…………French Institute Vehicle…..Arson……………….........No Claim
29Mar98…..Turkey………..Milatt Vehicle……………......Arson……………….........Arsonists of Conscience
22Mar98…..Cyprus…………Official Vehicle……………....Arson……………….........Arsonists of Conscience
16Dec97…..France…………Embassy Vehicle…………....Arson……………….........No Claim
30Nov97…..Italy……………Embassy Vehicle…………......Arson……………….......No Claim
16Nov97…..Cyprus……….Cypriot Student Union Bldg….Arson……………….....Anti-Fascist Action Group
12Nov97…..France…………Embassy Vehicle……………....Arson………………......Children of November
25Oct97…..Germany………German Archaeological Inst….Arson………………....Anti-Sovereignty Struggle
19Oct97…..Italy…………….Alitalia…………………………........Bomb……………….....International Revolutionary Struggle
15Jun97…..Austria…………Austrian Embassy……………....Molotov…………….....No Claim
15Apr97…..Italy…………….Lancia Dealer………………….....Bomb………………......Fighting Guerrilla Formation
04Apr97…..Italy…………….Alitalia Offices………………......Bomb………………......Fighting Guerrilla Formation
15Nov96…..Dutch………….Embassy Vehicle………………....Bomb……………….....Revolutionary Front
23Jan96…..Germany………School Bus……………………......Arson………………......No Claim
22Nov95…..British…………Barclay’s Bank………………......Bombs……………….....No Claim
11Jul94……Germany……….German Insurance Co………...Bomb………………......ELA
04Jul94…..Turkey…………..Turk Deputy Mission Chief…..Shot-murdered………17N
24Jun94…..EU………………..EU office……………………….......Bomb………………......ELA
07Jun94…..Belgium…………Belgian Embassy……………....Bomb……………….......ELA
23May94…..Germany………Miele Co……………………….......Molotov……………......No Claim
13May94…..Albania…………Embassy Vehicle…………….....Arson……………….......No Claim
24Apr94…..UN………………..UNHCR Office……………….......Bomb……………….......ELA/1 May
21Apr94…..Germany……...Embassy Van……………….......Bomb……………….......In Solidarity with Kurds
20Apr94…..Sweden………….Embassy Vehicle……………....Bomb……………….......Red Devils
17Apr94…..Dutch…………….Embassy Vehicle…………….....Bomb……………….......ELA/1May
17Apr94…..France……………French Institute Vehicles (3)…Bombs……………......ELA/1May
12Apr94…..Dutch…………….Netherlands Insurance Co……Bomb………………......17N
11Apr94…..British…………….HMS Ark Royal…………….......Rockets…………….....17N
16Mar94…..EU………………...EU offices……………………........Bomb………………......ELA
16Mar94…..France…………..French Language Institute……..Bomb……………….....ELA
03Feb94…..Germany……….Goethe Institute……………….....Bomb………………......ELA
17Mar92…..EU………………...vehicles (2)……………………......Bombs……………….....ELA
12Jan92…..Germany…………Miele Co………………………........Bomb………………......People’s Uprising
12Jan92…..Germany…………AEG Co……………………….........Bomb……………….......People’s Uprising
07Oct91…..Turkey…………….Diplomat……………………........Shot-murdered……....17N
17Jul91…..Germany………...Lufthansa Office…………….......Bomb………………......People’s Uprising
16Jul91…..Turkey………………Turkish Diplomats (4) ……...Bomb-wounded……...17N
31May91…..Germany…………Lowenbrau Brewery………....Rocket………………......17N
07May91…..Germany…………Seimans Co…………………......Rocket………………......17N
03Apr91…..UN…………………..UN Office……………………........Bomb……………….......ELA/1May
07Feb91…..France……………..Embassy Vehicle……………....Bomb……………….......17N
06Feb91…..France……………..Embassy Vehicles……………..Bomb………………........17N
29Jan91…..British……………..British Petroleum BP office……Rocket……………......17N
25Jan91…..France……………..French Attache’s Vehicle………Bomb……………….......17N
25Jan91…..British……………..Barclay’s Bank Office………….Bomb………………........17N
16Dec90….EC…………………...EC Offices………………………......Rocket……………........17N
27Mar90…..Czech Repub…..Czech Embassy Vehicles……….Bomb……………........Social Resistance
27Mar90…..Hungary…………EmbassyVehicles……………….....Bomb……………........Social Resistance

[achilles]

...bla bla bla...Sweden...blabla Japan...blabla....

You took this part of my post very literal and wasted your precious time to show me what i had in mind: your are not open to alternatives. The West is the best, baby!

Dig a bit deeper into Sweden's ( i could have said Denmmark, or Portugal, regarding your foreign policy- the choice of countries was symbolic) environmental and social institutions. The might not be the most efficient in the world, but their effectiveness is a different story. Financial cost is not everything you know. But thats America no? Money talks bull**** walks. Thankfully this will change after the latest, in essence American economic, crisis that took place due to greed, fraudulent attitudes/practices and very poor regulatory and risk-management frameworks.


You're an elf. Sorry.
This is supposed to be the funny part, yes?:hug:

[achilles]

ABOUT ELFSTONE44:

I know you are not talking with punks (like your country 'does not negotiate with terrorists" i suppose) but i'll give it a shot.

Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels is back with a vengeance! :lol: Posting endless lists of Greek & non-Greek victims of Greek extremist/terrorist groups noone has ever denied. We are one "revolutionary country", aint we? (This is sarcasm again so dont rush into accussing me of putting revolutionists and terrorists into the same basket. You have clearly demostrated to be an expert in twisting someone else's posts, i.e. mine)

First, you are still avoiding my question as to whether there were ANY US -Junta links and what were those, according to you? As a former diplomat, you could provide with solid evidence discrediting my claims and prove that Papadopoulos was just drinking ouzo and had a few good laughs with the various CIA station chiefs in Athens.

As regards to this:


For Europeans interested in knowing whether they are targets of Greek anarcho-Leftist groups, here is a partial list…compiled before I got bored.

What you are suggesting is that ALL foreigners are in danger as targets of Greek anarcho-leftist groups. Since you like so much raw data and huge lists, do you have any statistics showing what proportion of foreigners have been wounded or killed by Greek extremists, out of the total who visited Greece?

Don't try to put Athens in parallel with Beirut. You are not being fair to yourself and your rich curriculum vitae.

[Macs.]

Greek terrorist/anarchist attacks on Europeans – 1990-2001

For Europeans interested in knowing whether they are targets of Greek anarcho-Leftist groups, here is a partial list…compiled before I got bored. You’ll get the picture. Sorry if a couple of guys think this is propaganda; At least they haven't brought up Roswell...yet. But this will put the Anarchist movement somewhat in perspective. I've other lists as well including lists of attacks by varioius Anarchist groups.

So, thats around 40-50 attacks that involve more than just arson, in a time span of 11 years. And if we talk about the European Union here, that's 500 Million People. In perspective, this is simply a small number.

Definitely nothing I loose sleep over.

[the_13th_redneck]

I think the matter is who was targeted and how they were successfully taken out. It hink that's the issue.
Sure, you can, in 10 years, kill two Presidents of your country. Just two? Nothing to lose sleep over? I hardly think so.

[m.i.t]

Why Hellenic youth was so much angry againist goverment ?

My Greek firends told me current economic situation is very harder than past years and 4 countrywide strikes has hit the Greece in 2008 ...

l think killing of 15 years old boy was just an excuse for massive reactions...

[Elfstone44]

Greek Terrorist/Anarchist Attacks on Non-American/European Targers 1997-2001

Here are a few more attacks on the Non-European Diplomatic community in Athens by Anarchists over a 5 year period…not one arrest was made; not one crime was solved. And the list is not complete. Attacks on car dealers are also attacks on their Greek owners. (The list and the others don't begin to address the attacks on Greek targerts which were enormous...the burning of Athens during Bill Clinton's visit is an example).

Why pay attention because, after all people have the right to burn diplomatic vehicles and attack diplomatic officers; its done everywhere...Right? Uhhh…yehhh? Where, Except Athens?

This and the accompanying chart on Attacks on European targets in the 1990's should give someone pause. This is not a new phenomenon in Athens. So, who is responsible for protecting Diplomats in Athens? Why was nothing done? And that question is related to today’s events since the same quesition should be asked by Greek society, i.e...."who is responsible for protecting citizens and assuring the rule of law." "Why is nothing being done now?"


02Apr02---Japan-------Nissan Dealership-------------------------Bomb-------------No Claim
25Jan02---Jordan-------Embassy Vehicle-------------------------Arson-------------Flames of Revolt
01Dec01---Australia----Embassy Vehicle------------------------Arson-------------Arsonists of Conscience
17Apr01---Thailand-----Embassy Vehicle------------------------Arson-------------Revolutionary Violence Group
17Apr01---Israel---------Embassy Vehicle------------------------Arson-------------Revolutionary Violence Group
22Dec00…Canada-------TVX Gold Mining Co. (Thess)------------Arson--------------No Claim
23Sep00---Egypt----------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Anarchist Faction or Anarchist Group for Subversion
07Sep00---Iran------------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Black Star
05Jun00---Lebanon-------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Anarchist Faction for the Overthrow
10Mar00---Japan----------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------No Claim
03Jan00---Jordan----------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Anarchist Faction for the Overthrow
27Dec99---S. Korea------Embassy Vehicle------------------------Arson--------------Anarchist Faction for the Overthrow
10Nov99---Japan----------Suzuki Car Dealer----------------------Arson--------------Anti-State Action
18Nov98---Armenia------Embassy Vehicle------------------------Arson--------------No Claim
29Oct98---Jordan---------Embassy Vehicle------------------------Arson--------------No Claim
26Aug98---S. Korea------Hyundai Car Dealer--------------------Bomb--------------No Claim
16May98---Libya----------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------No Claim
23Mar98---Libya----------Embassy Vehicle------------------------Arson--------------Arsonists of Conscience
23Jan98---Armenia--------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Arsonists of Conscience
07Jan98---Syria------------Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Arsonists of Conscience
25Dec97---Philippines----Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Arsonists of Conscience
08Dec97---Philippines----Embassy Vehicle-----------------------Arson--------------Arsonists of Conscience
30Dec96---Peru------------Embassy Offices------------------------Bomb--------------Anti-State Struggle

[gazell]

Do you know about Vlanto, Elf?

[achilles]

02Apr02---Japan-------Nissan Dealership-------------------------Bomb-------------No Claim


You forgot the arson of one of the Sprider stores uptown a few months ago by a bunch of teenagers driving 100cc mopeds. This remains also an unresolved mystery.

You havent answered my questions, which means you dont want do...for perfectly explainable reasons. Your country's catalytic role in establishing and maintaining a tragically harmfull military junta in Greece, could well explain a good number of the attacks you posted. At some point certain Americans, especially diplomats, should find the balls to deal with their country's past (a country who supported guys like Papadopoulos, Suharto, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, just to name a few) and be more humble and self-critical before bashing other countries who are supposed to be allies, and largely suffered from being the US puppet.

We are done talking Dr. Goebbels. I'd expect more from an experienced diplomat like yourself.


ON TOPIC: All hell breaks loose in Exarcheia as we speak, especially around the Polytehnic Uni.

[b0sco]

You would imagine a 'first world' police force is able to restore order in 2 weeks. :-(

[the_13th_redneck]

There are people like that everywhere. The biggest mistake you can make is to think they have a real cause or reason other than destruction or to aid the country's main enemy (because they'd aid these groups so it becomes a relationship of sorts). They exist for the sake of destroying and burning.

[MichaelF]

Disappointing, as the Greeks wrote the original book on riot suppression (see: Nika Insurrection).

[Elfstone44]

I was going to post a list of 183 attacks against Americans and American businesses in Athens from 1975-2004. I don't think I will. There are folk here who think those are justified...just as the Iranian Ayatollah's do..as the Cubans do. (One fellow seemed to intimate that many of the attacks on Europeans and murderous attacks on Greeks and Americans are understandable in some way; try telling that to the families of the murdered).

Professors/experts on the subject of generational unrest in Europe roam around the US lecturing on "post Cold-War Realities" saying;
-- "With the demise of the Comintern, European left-right ideology which split 3 generations exists no more";
-- "the reality is now more fundamental, religious, clash of civilizations, modernity vs tribalism, etc."

I sat in on a lecture at Georgetown U. recently and was pretty astonished. I asked him about Exharchia-he was condescending. I believe these "experts" have never been out of the USA and do not at all have a grip on European (and Greek) Anarchism at all.

As such, I will offer an opinion about what is going on in Athens. And, it is an opinion; but it is not the blather of a guy pontificating in a bar. I've watched the scene for 17 years more or less...(there were years that I just became bored with it and did more important, exciting stuff)..and Greek anarchists, with their repetitive vocabulary and limited intellectual repartee and understanding of international relations and even of Greek politics, are pretty boring, even when they decide to kill somebody...same old same old).

As I said, these professors lecturing about the "new generational split" have never been to Exharchia. And in that neighborhood (I was planning to rent a house there once..thank God I didn't...I wouldn't be here now) an alternative culture has grown up. It is "4th generation" lefty, now more influenced by "family" than ideology..i.e. conformity rather than intellectuallity. It is not Trotskiyite, there is no real philosopher ruling the intelligensia of the groups there. It is simply a shared dress code, shared vocabulary and code of action. It is now pretty mindless; violence for violence's sake. Think of the "Penguin" in the Batman movies; simply destruction for destruction's sake. The culture there justifies what it wants to justify. People make their living however they want; stealing is not a crime; arson is accepted; murder for political reasons is not murder. It is a "Sherwood Forest" in Athens (except someone forgot to tell "Robin Hood Tsigaridas," that he has to give the stuff he steals to the poor). You can get laid being an Anarchist; you don't have to be successfull or create anything to be admired; black jacket, a beer, tough talk, motorcycle, and a few burned cars...you're a hero. In fact failure is success.

There are not more than a few thousand activitists they can call on, maybe a few hundred. There are maybe 50 people who can call these masses onto the street. (And I'm not talking about the young "anarchists" sitting around a bar getting drunk at 0100 and deciding to burn something for kicks). These "leaders" are the "known unknown" or usual suspects. They've been around forever..in and out of prisons...you all know their names...look at the photos of the bald-headed guys fighting the police; they've been there forever. Some of them have murdered Greeks; One blew up the Intercon hotel killing a pregnant Greek woman..he's still a "hero." Yet they've been allowed to take over an old and historic section of Athens...and are expanding.

So why can't the State deal with them? Why let them inflict millions of dollars of damage for...whatever? This (from an outside observer) seems to be a weakness of the Greek political system, which needs to be addressed by all serious participants in the Greek political process. Violence does not create a viable economy. Nor does it create a peaceful and productive society (assuming Greeks want a peaceful and productive society)

So now, for the Greek participants. What is the solution? And I'm not talking about a band-aid...a few jobs; changing the MPO; putting PASOK into power; because you cannot appease this group. So what do you do? Actually, Do you want to do anything at all?

----------------------------

PS. On Vlanto--there are dozens of anarchists websites out there; there are also dozens of Jihadist websites; You can pick and choose your information a little easier now. Before you had to hang out in specialist bookstores...I can name a few from the 70's and 80's; one of the most famous was in Frankfurt-I'll give you the phone number if you'd like. But, I'll offer some caution. What you get there might feed your passion, but it may not be accurate or worth a darn. "Inbreeding your intellect" doesn't create insight.

-- I'll provide an example: In Belgium in the early 1980's about 20 Belgian students hung out together talking Marxism. Didier Chevolet was one, Pierre Carrette anther; Next thing you know they'd stepped off the edge of the world; they bought into the Action Directe "20 steps to overthrowing Western Capitalism," decided they could destroy NATO and the Western Capitalist states-all 20 of them, formed the Cellules Communistes Combattantes (CCC-Fighting Communist Cells) and off they went killing people (firemen, etc.). Then the "movement" split, because one woman wanted to call an "action" a "campaign" or some such. Mindless violence and all brought about by inbred group-think. (Oh by the way, CCC worked with Greek Anarchists - Ask your buddies). (Pierre Carette was released in 2006 just like RAF Klar. 2008, arrested again for conspiring to kill...once an ideological killer, always a killer).

If you want to be a real scholar rather than someone being "led around by your ****," (that's an academic expression meaning letting your passions rule your intellect)...some sort of dispassionate analysis of what is being said is required. (America supported Pol Pot?..OMG hahaha...get back to Roswell and JFK assassination-grassy knoll conspiracy theories).

Yours Truely, xxxoooxxx

Dr. Josef Goebbels, Felix Dzerjinski and Vo Nguyen Giap