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AK-Lover
12-10-2008, 05:48 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7772755.stm

The United Nations says more than six million people have been living as refugees for more than five years.

More than 90,000 of those are Serbs, who fled Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia during the Balkan wars in the 1990s and now live in the same squalid camps they were originally placed in.

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes says these refugees are in limbo - unable either to return home or begin a new life.

A woman at the Petrovac centre
Conditions are cramped and basic at Petrovac

The Petrovac collective centre, 115km (75 miles) south-east of Belgrade, is a disused army barracks.

It once housed 600 refugees; the number is now down to around 50, but the camp remains a bleak, cramped and uncomfortable place.

"This was a solution that was always supposed to be temporary," explains Andre Mahecic of the UN refugee agency (UNHCR).

"But people are still here because they simply have no alternative," he says.


I don't think about our future anymore, anything I planned in life seems impossible
Miljo Miljic, refugee

Vinka and Stevo Kolundja are among those who have been unable to move on. They have been living in the centre since they fled Croatia in 1995.

Stevo is now approaching retirement age, has had two heart attacks, and cannot work.

Vinka, 58, is working as a nurse, but her wages are low.

"There is no way I can earn enough to pay the rent on a private apartment," she explains. "So we seem to be stuck here."

'Making ends meet'

Vinka's dream is to find a little place to live close to her daughter and grandchildren. But they now live in Belgrade, where rents are especially high.

Vinka and Stevo Kolundja
Vinka and Stevo are reluctant to take Serbian passports

For Vinka, even getting the bus fare to travel the two hours to visit them is a struggle, and she weeps as she looks at their pictures.

"I hardly ever see them," she says. "And I long to."

In fact, Vinka and Stevo could take Serbian nationality, a solution the UNHCR normally views as a step towards starting a new life.

But they are reluctant to do so because refugee status entitles them to basic accommodation in the centre, and to basic medical care, which Stevo needs. With Serbian passports they would lose that.

In theory they could also return to Croatia, but their house there was destroyed in the war.

"Many refugees appear to be hanging on to their refugee status as something they feel is the source of some assistance," says Mr Mahecic.

"They feel this is a kind of lifeline that keeps them alive and allows them to make ends meet."

'Dependency syndrome'

The UN knows the dangers of allowing people to become aid dependant, but does not want to abandon people like Vinka and Stevo.

Miljo Miljic
Miljo Miljic says he cannot see a way out

"We are always concerned about creating a dependency syndrome with refugees," says Mr Mahecic.

"And yes, there is a dependency syndrome among them, but what's the alternative? They depend on this aid."

Many refugees in Serbia have, however, taken the step of moving out of the collective centres, in the hope of improving their situation.

Unfortunately, as the Miljic family have discovered, these hopes are not always realised.

Miljo and Milica Miljic now pay 300 euros (£260) a month for two very small, very basic rooms, which they share with their teenage son and daughter.

But the Miljics are both aged 55 and in ill health - and finding work in Serbia nowadays is hard even for the young and strong.

Neither Miljo nor Milica have got regular jobs, and each week is a struggle to make ends meet.

"My son has got a school trip to Lake Ohrid in Macedonia," says Miljo. "But the cost is 250 euros, so I have had to tell him he cannot go."

Hopes

Miljo has tried hard to change things for the better. He has been back to check the family's original home in Tuzla, Bosnia, in the hope that they might be able to return.

"We were happy there," he says. "And it is safe to go back, but our house has been looted. Everything is gone, even the sinks, the toilet, all the fittings. And I have no money to replace all that."

So once again, the Miljics are reluctant to give up their refugee status.

Basic medical care is important, and then there is the faint hope that at some point they might get some compensation for their losses.

"A lot of refugees tell me they hope for that," says social worker Biljana Kosanic. "They think if they stay as refugees someone somewhere will finally pay them for their suffering."

"But it's never going to happen, never."

'Trapped'

The UNHCR has invited donors and governments to Geneva this week because it wants them to come up with better solutions for long-term refugees.

But finding solutions is likely to be complicated, controversial, and costly.

It involves restitution of land and property rights by the countries of origin, or more social support, especially for elderly refugees, in host countries.

So for the time being, families like the Miljics are stuck; refugees from a war long over, who cannot go back and cannot go forward.

"I feel trapped," says Miljo.

"I don't know, maybe I've been in this situation so long I can't think clearly anymore, but I just don't see a way out. I don't think about our future anymore. Anything I planned in life seems impossible."

Veni Valboro
12-10-2008, 08:47 PM
Been there done that

INAT
12-10-2008, 10:02 PM
Tragic truly tragic.Serbia in some areas has become one large refugee camp.

AK-Lover
12-10-2008, 11:13 PM
Serbia took on more refugees from both conflicts than any other country in the region. The ironic thing also is that tens of thousands of Bosniak refugees came to Serbia too to escape the war. I know my parents took on a Bosniak family that had escaped from Bosnia in the winter of 1993, they lived at an old house of ours outside of Belgrade until they found a place to stay.

Horizon
12-11-2008, 03:25 PM
Ak Lover you care to give us the cost of living in Serbia, for basic things, and rent prices.

V.I.D.
12-11-2008, 05:21 PM
Serbia took on more refugees from both conflicts than any other country in the region. The ironic thing also is that tens of thousands of Bosniak refugees came to Serbia too to escape the war. I know my parents took on a Bosniak family that had escaped from Bosnia in the winter of 1993, they lived at an old house of ours outside of Belgrade until they found a place to stay.


Quite true, it's all one big, sad, and depressing story. The demographics in the ex-YU and Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia in particular have changed dramatically in the past 15-16 years. Republic of Srpska is over 90% populated with Serbs, same case for Albanians in Kosovo, Croats are fewer in Bosnia but Western Herzegovina is practically joined with Croatia now. Muslims from Serbian Sandzak/Raska area have become "Bosniaks" while hundreds of thousands of Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia are today citizens of Serbia. Half of Montenegrins are rejecting their Serbian roots to the point of Serbophobia, Kosovo is recognized by most Western countries, and Bosnia & Herzegovina today is divided and dysfunctional as former Socialist Yugoslavia in 1990-1991. A sad state of affairs indeed, and the recipe for disaster in the future conflicts in Balkans which today seem inevitable.

Laworkerbee
12-11-2008, 05:25 PM
"This was a solution that was always supposed to be temporary," explains Andre Mahecic of the UN refugee agency (UNHCR)

That goes for almost every refugee camp ever.

Vorian
12-11-2008, 05:26 PM
Oh, we have talked of this before. Ze Serbs are eviil. They don't get the same treatment with normal people.


I can't begin to understand how frustrating all this must be to the Serbs.

Kaapeli
12-11-2008, 05:55 PM
This problem is the same with almost all refugees everywhere, especially in developed countries. Even when they could return relatively safely they don't want to give up the wellfare benefits for an uncertain future in their old homeland.
Maybe a they could be paid incentives to rebuild their old homes and lives instead of paying wellfare indefinitely?

V.I.D.
12-11-2008, 05:57 PM
Oh, we have talked of this before. Ze Serbs are eviil. They don't get the same treatment with normal people.


I can't begin to understand how frustrating all this must be to the Serbs.

I think majority of the Serbs are simply resigned over the treatment and the fact that most still believe in "one day, the truth will be known to the outside world" does not help out. This explain for the lack of effective Serbian propaganda during the civil war 1991-1999 unlike all of their opponents (Bosnian and Croatian use of "Rudder & Finn", staged scenes for the Western media, etc.)
Now, this may sound stupid, but I almost see it as the logical payback for making so many political mistakes in the past.

In 1918, instead of worrying about themselves after losing anywhere up to 30-40% of male population, stupid Serbs create a Yugoslavia with Croats, Bosniaks and Slovenes who fought under Austro-Hungarian Empire.

In 1945, the same exact mistake of recreating Yugoslavia is made, with Serbs quickly forgetting about the crimes of Independent State of Croatia (concentration camps, massacres, expulsions and forced baptisms) and accepting Tito as the untouchable dictator.

In early 1950s, when the said Tito (who fought against Serbs in WWI as the Austro-Hungarian corporal) refused to join NATO after being offered several times.

In late 1980s when Socialist Yugoslavia was offered a membership in EC, today's EU.

In early 1990s, when many Serbs did support a non-visionary and poorly masked communist Milosevic and just like their opponents committed many crimes instead of defending its own people in Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo.

Too many mistakes in a period of less than one whole century. One can only hope that mistakes will finally be acknowledged and corrected in the future. I doubt that the Serbs will ever be effective at understanding the necessity of mass propaganda, but perhaps national goals will finally come first instead of joining with former enemies to create another hopeless Yugoslavia.

INAT
12-11-2008, 06:05 PM
Quite true, it's all one big, sad, and depressing story. The demographics in the ex-YU and Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia in particular have changed dramatically in the past 15-16 years. Republic of Srpska is over 90% populated with Serbs, same case for Albanians in Kosovo, Croats are fewer in Bosnia but Western Herzegovina is practically joined with Croatia now. Muslims from Serbian Sandzak/Raska area have become "Bosniaks" while hundreds of thousands of Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia are today citizens of Serbia. Half of Montenegrins are rejecting their Serbian roots to the point of Serbophobia, Kosovo is recognized by most Western countries, and Bosnia & Herzegovina today is divided and dysfunctional as former Socialist Yugoslavia in 1990-1991. A sad state of affairs indeed, and the recipe for disaster in the future conflicts in Balkans which today seem inevitable.


He spoke about an earlier time but Tarabich could have been talkng about the modern day when he said "The Serbs will separate from each other, and they will say, "I am not a Serb; I am not a Serb." When you understand he did not make the distinction between Serb,Croat and Montenegrian his words ring true today.

Veni Valboro
12-11-2008, 08:33 PM
This problem is the same with almost all refugees everywhere, especially in developed countries. Even when they could return relatively safely they don't want to give up the wellfare benefits for an uncertain future in their old homeland.
Maybe a they could be paid incentives to rebuild their old homes and lives instead of paying wellfare indefinitely?

Different goverments in Serbia helped in different ways, but you have to know that almost a total of one milion refugees lived in Serbia, which was recovering from wars and economic sanctions. Some houses were built and some are still being built for the refugees (and other poor social groups), but it takes time since it's a huge econimic burden for the country.
At least that's the oficial stance. Don't take my word foe it, i haven't been there since '04.

V.I.D.
12-11-2008, 09:29 PM
He spoke about an earlier time but Tarabich could have been talkng about the modern day when he said "The Serbs will separate from each other, and they will say, "I am not a Serb; I am not a Serb." When you understand he did not make the distinction between Serb,Croat and Montenegrian his words ring true today.

Some of his predictions do sound eerily pertinent today. If I remember correctly, there was a prediction of the third world war in which many burnt people will from the sky on the Serbian territory and he talked about "people of yellow race" winning. I've read the book very long time ago so I don't remember all the interesting details. The famous prediction that all Serbs left will be able to fit under the plum tree is particularly interesting, to say the least.

AK-Lover
12-12-2008, 01:07 AM
Ak Lover you care to give us the cost of living in Serbia, for basic things, and rent prices.

Currently or back in the 90's?

Horizon
12-12-2008, 03:02 PM
Currently if you please.

AK-Lover
12-12-2008, 03:31 PM
Lets just say that they are high enough for living on today's average white collar wage in Serbia to be a struggle. Let alone those people working unskilled labor or pension.