US car bail-out fails in Senate

[gayarabianman]

A $14bn (£9.4bn) bail-out package for the beleaguered US car industry has died in the Senate after failing to get enough support in a procedural vote.
The failure came after bipartisan talks on the rescue plan collapsed over Republican demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to swift wage cuts.
The White House said the bill had been the Big Three car makers' "best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy".
The House of Representatives passed the White House-backed bill on Wednesday.
The Democrats needed some Republicans to back the bill in the Senate as they have a majority of just one, and some in their own party are expected to vote against.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7778830.stm

[Fintin]

Detroit is going to get worse before it gets better, but it will get better. The union system is antiquated and hemorrhaging money. Declaring bankruptcy will void union contracts, allowing the Big 3 to save $2000 per vehicle.

[Kilgor]

I dont agree with the reason, but agree with the outcome. They don't deserve a cent. This government corporate socialism has to stop.

[Zoomie]

I dont agree with the reason, but agree with the outcome. They don't deserve a cent. This government corporate socialism has to stop.
Not to mention it makes no sense to give them money now, and expect them to eventually come back later and propose some changes they might make down the road after asking for more money. :cantbeli:

[Ordie]

I dont agree with the reason, but agree with the outcome. They don't deserve a cent. This government corporate socialism has to stop.

Then you oppose the idea of providing unemployment insurance for many who will be out of work soon.

[ren0312]

Let us just hope the those who are fine with the collapse of the US auto industry do not actually cut of their noses to spite their face,

[Zoomie]

Let us just hope the those who are fine with the collapse of the US auto industry do not actually cut of their noses to spite their face,
It's going to collapse either way, I'd just rather not waste more money on idiots.

[Kilgor]

exactly, its best hope is it gets bought out by the japs, the factories get closed, retooled and the workforce re-organised.

[Ordie]

Wall Street is going to tank tommorrow with this news.

I don't want to even contemplate what my 401K will look by Friday evening.

[Parx400]

Then you oppose the idea of providing unemployment insurance for many who will be out of work soon.

It's their choice. They have been living in a dream world where someone with little to no real skill gets paid 70K with Gold plated health care. I work for one of the BIG 4 accounting firms and don't get as good of health care and mine is ranked one of the best. I also make less then 70K. If the workers want to work for what their skills are worth they will have a job. If not, then the jobs will leave and head to the south.

[Parx400]

Wall Street is going to tank tommorrow with this news.

I don't want to even contemplate what my 401K will look by Friday evening.

No it won't. GM's stock will tank. Ford's will go up. People will still buy the same amount of American cars. It will just shift to ford. The market has already accounted for the GM deal not passing. It was clear that the deal was dead way before the closing bell. If anything traders will assume BR will create a healthy competitive GM in the future.

[Ordie]

No it won't. GM's stock will tank.

Sorry, but the news from Tokyo is not good.

Japanese Stocks Plunge as U.S. Auto Rescue Fails, Yen Soars http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=ajy3WjE_3EPI&refer=japan#

[I can't think of a name]

Why do people think that the end of the little 3 means the end of all auto jobs and industry.

Look at tech companies, the profitable parts are sold and kept running. I am sure the Ford and Chevy truck businesses will still be running (maybe not because of congresses fleet averaged MPGs). I parts that are money losers will be gone and they deserve to go. They are not completely worthless but the parts that people are still willing to pay dollars for will still be going.

[Ordie]

Why do people think that the end of the little 3 means the end of all auto jobs and industry.

Look at tech companies, the profitable parts are sold and kept running. I am sure the Ford and Chevy truck businesses will still be running (maybe not because of congresses fleet averaged MPGs). I parts that are money losers will be gone and they deserve to go. They are not completely worthless but the parts that people are still willing to pay dollars for will still be going.

Apples and Oranges

Tech companies:

Contract and subcontract many of its core functions. That way they reduce its risks.
Have low overhead, no production lines or supply network
Funded by private Venture Capitalist
Manufacturing:

Is the opposite
Toyota, Nissan, Daimler-Benz do not want the big three to go bankrupt. All automakers in the US depend on common sources for sub-asembly parts and accessories. If one of the big three were to fall, the cost from the suppliers will go up.

[I can't think of a name]

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, however the current manufacturing model does not work. And bailing it out only keeps this failed system going. I think it going under is the only way for it to match new industries methods like Tech.

Also, you are basing your prediction on the fact that these production lines and assets will completely disappear. I think that profitable lines will be supported and kept running.

[Mackie]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-01/01/xin_0321204312138578918221.jpg
Thank you for GM!

I expect technology transfer at it's best.

[MichaelF]

It's a comedy ...politicians debate about $15 billion while they signed a blank check to Paulson and his buddies.

Credit is more important to the economy (it drives it) than the automobile industry (or 1/3rd of it, as the foreign companies that have plants in the US are mostly doing fine). That's why everyone held their nose and signed off on the credit bailout.

Try operating a corporation if you can't get credit becuase the lenders have collapsed.


The Big Three have to draw down their workers wages and benefits (over the UAWs smoking corpse, likely) to the level that Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai currently pay to their American workers, or they'll always be in trouble.
You cannot have 25% higher labor costs, a smaller market share, and still expect to end up in the Black at the end of the Year.

[ren0312]

Apples and Oranges


Tech companies:

Contract and subcontract many of its core functions. That way they reduce its risks.
Have low overhead, no production lines or supply network
Funded by private Venture Capitalist
Manufacturing:

Is the opposite
Toyota, Nissan, Daimler-Benz do not want the big three to go bankrupt. All automakers in the US depend on common sources for sub-asembly parts and accessories. If one of the big three were to fall, the cost from the suppliers will go up.

I think the US needs to look into adopting an export oriented economic model like Japan.

[Herman the II]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-01/01/xin_0321204312138578918221.jpg
Thank you for GM!

I expect technology transfer at it's best.


Ja, I just hope that OPEL can keep itself out of the mess.

[Macs.]

Ja, I just hope that OPEL can keep itself out of the mess.

I very much hope so too, they really are back on the track and have some good models at their hand. One can dream that MB, BMW or VW/Audi/Porsche take them home, but I doubt it.

[ren0312]

I very much hope so too, they really are back on the track and have some good models at their hand. One can dream that MB, BMW or VW/Audi/Porsche take them home, but I doubt it.


What if the German government provides Opel a bridge loan to last them thorugh the current recession.

[CMNot]

No it won't.

Spectacular post fail. FTSE lost 2.65% in the first 90 minutes so far.

[redhawk_six]

No it won't. GM's stock will tank. Ford's will go up. People will still buy the same amount of American cars. It will just shift to ford. The market has already accounted for the GM deal not passing. It was clear that the deal was dead way before the closing bell. If anything traders will assume BR will create a healthy competitive GM in the future.


Makes sense, until you actually read the news. Ford is part of the big 3. It was the big 3 (GM, Ford, Crylser) asking for a bail out, not just GM.

[Kletterbuxe]

The Big Three have to draw down their workers wages and benefits (over the UAWs smoking corpse, likely) to the level that Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai currently pay to their American workers, or they'll always be in trouble.
You cannot have 25% higher labor costs, a smaller market share, and still expect to end up in the Black at the end of the Year.

I don´t think thats their main problem. They have to become thechnological leaders again, with inovative products. German carmakers have very high labor costs, even compared to the big 3 and are doing pretty well.

[homegrowncat]

Sorry, but the news from Tokyo is not good.

Japanese Stocks Plunge as U.S. Auto Rescue Fails, Yen Soars http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=ajy3WjE_3EPI&refer=japan#

The Japanese market could be plundging because it realizes they will be hurt because of market forces. The Big 3 have problems, since they didn't get government money they will have to change their business plan, shed some golden union benefits and will overall become much more competitative cost wise with the Japanese cars and trucks. Due to union benefits, American cars and trucks already have $3000-$5000 built into the price that Japanese autos do not. This gives the Japanese autos a nice price advantage in the head to head market.

[timetraveller]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7778830.stm


End of the day ... all you have to look at is how many A listers actually drive American built cars ?

RR.Bentley , Aston Martin , Mercedes , lexus , Porsche , Ferrari , Lamborghini ,Jaguar , Mclaren , Koeingsegg [sp]

Are the only Models you will see in the driveways of the famous with only the exception of the Humvees even then it speaks volumes

The CEO's of the American Car industry has failed to recognised by not competing with Foreign Companies whos name have prestige and history and most of all IMAGE !!!!!

A Kenworth truck has got more presence than any run of the mill American built Car ...

[California Joe]

Most of those hypocritical cocksucking Senators that voted against it have sh*tloads of foreign car factories in their states, that they give tax breaks up the ass to, while their own countries subsidize them. They sunk 10 times the 15 billion dollar amount into AIG for absolutely no return. None.

The management failed at the big 3. Pawning that off on the union workers is complete bullsh*t.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Should senators vote positively to rescue them all time? and why?if they must, is it a new system? where were the hell auditor firms like S&P before and unnecessary ultra high salaried CEOs?



The CEO's of the American Car industry has failed to recognised by not competing with Foreign Companies whos name have prestige and history and most of all IMAGE !!!!!

it is the most important,true and mind blowing sentence here. American Car Industries, CEOs and ??? failed. This is the right scene of sharing money and productivity,quality in the global area.

[Carib]

Where to Draw the Bailout Line?

A Commentary By Lawrence Kudlow
Thursday, December 11, 2008Email to a Friend


The bailout-nation saga continued this week, as the little-three carmakers from Detroit drove to Washington to plead for a $34 billion federal package to save themselves from bankruptcy and insolvency. Hot on their heels was a devastating report of 533,000 lost jobs in November. Actually, it's a loss of 732,000 jobs, including downward revisions from the prior two months. Unemployment moved up to 6.7 percent from 6.5 percent, a number that's going to get worse as the volume of discouraged workers continues to rise.
So here's the painful choice for both Republicans and Democrats in Congress: Will the political class risk a Detroit-carmaker bankruptcy that might lead to catastrophic liquidation -- including, realistically, a couple million car-related jobs -- all while the recession deepens and job losses mount (1.2 million in just the past three months)?

It's a tough choice -- especially for Republicans, most of whom want to vote against bailout nation and stop big-government encroachment on our free-market economy. That's the right theory. But are the economic risks simply too great to employ it?

Various polling surveys say bailout nation, and a federal rescue for autos in particular, is very unpopular. At least 60 percent are polling against a bailout. The TARP bailout of banks is increasingly unpopular.
Meanwhile, the pressure for more bailouts grows daily. The Avis rental-car company wants a bailout from TARP. A company called BlueFire Ethanol wants a bailout. The trade association for equipment-leasing companies wants a bailout. There's no end to it. And if we keep going down this path, we'll make a mockery of free-market capitalism.

Where to draw the line? That's the huge political question.
Coming back to Detroit, there may be a pragmatic solution, one that takes some of the apocalypse-now threat of major economic decline out of play. Sen. Bob Corker and others have proposed a federal oversight board that would in effect become a bankruptcy court. Strict conditions would be imposed on the carmakers, especially regarding compensation -- the single-biggest reason for Detroit's decades-long decline.
Corker wants Detroit to have the exact same compensation levels as the Japanese transplants in the non-union Southern states. That means moving hourly labor costs down from roughly $70 to $48. It means reopening the UAW contracts that have created the huge pay gap between Toyota and GM. It means putting an end to excessive pension and health-care benefits.

According to professor Mark Perry of the University of Michigan, GM health-care benefits add $1,500 to the price of every vehicle, while pension costs add another $700 per car. That will have to end. The lucrative jobs bank that pays laid-off workers 95 percent of their compensation also will have to stop. And bondholders will have to be satisfied with a complete renegotiation of GM's $62 billion in debt, including the union retiree health-care fund that is underfunded by $30 billion.

There still will be considerable job losses for downsized Detroit carmakers. They'll have to cut a huge chunk of their dealer networks. Domestic brands will have to be sharply reduced. But essentially, as would be the case under Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the federal government will provide short-term financing while Detroit goes through its radical restructuring. It looks like bankruptcy lite, and it will completely change the direction of the former Big Three.

It's probably too much to ask, but tough federal action under the aegis of oversight-board enforcement also should relieve the CAFE fuel standards that have plagued U.S. automakers. At the very least, worldwide standards should be substituted for domestic ones. Making expensive small green cars is an unprofitable business.

Ironically, with oil and retail gasoline prices plunging, it's not unreasonable to expect something of an auto-sales recovery. Gas prices have dropped all the way to $1.75 from over $4. This tax cut will help revive the whole economy, along with auto sales.

But if Washington can put this car-bailout business behind it, perhaps Congress can move on to the ultimate solution: restoring economic growth.

President-elect Obama has been cagey about the details of his massive $700 billion infrastructure spending plan and whether he'll raise taxes on successful earners. But this new New Deal, including Obama's middle-class tax credits, will not create permanent economic growth incentives.

What will? A genuine supply-side growth agenda to reduce tax rates across the board.
If the Republican Party wants to put bailout nation to rest, it should campaign for lower corporate, individual and investment tax rates. It should make clear that the Democrats are the government-spending party, while the Republicans are the tax-cutting party.

We will not bail out our way into prosperity. Nor will we spend our way into prosperity. Somebody has to stand up and yell: It's time to cut tax rates on the supply side. That will reinvigorate growth and infuse new spirit into a demoralized economy.

Rasmussen Reports is an electronic publishing firm specializing in the collection, publication, and distribution of public opinion polling information.
The Rasmussen Reports ElectionEdgeâ„¢ Premium Service for Election 2008 offers the most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a Presidential election.
Scott Rasmussen, president of Rasmussen Reports, has been an independent pollster for more than a decade.

[Ordie]

Most of those hypocritical cocksucking Senators that voted against it have sh*tloads of foreign car factories in their states, that they give tax breaks up the ass to, while their own countries subsidize them. They sunk 10 times the 15 billion dollar amount into AIG for absolutely no return. None.

The management failed at the big 3. Pawning that off on the union workers is complete bullsh*t.

X2

The Southern GOP Senators are protecting thier non-union, foreign owned automakers, subsidized through tax breaks and environmental loopholes on the premise of getting rid of corporate welfare for the big three.

If we hadn't had a strong union movement in our history, we wouldn't have a 7 day work week, minimum wages, and weekends. We would be a country with slave wages, hazardous working conditions, and child labor working in sweatshops.

With that, I wish everyone a good weekend and cherish it. Because many union members were beaten, suffered and died for your right to take two days off.

[ronnieraygun]

Most of those hypocritical cocksucking Senators that voted against it have sh*tloads of foreign car factories in their states, that they give tax breaks up the ass to, while their own countries subsidize them. They sunk 10 times the 15 billion dollar amount into AIG for absolutely no return. None.

The management failed at the big 3. Pawning that off on the union workers is complete bullsh*t.

Thanks for being one of the few to come in here and not talk completely out their ass.

-Talk about class war, why not screw true working people yet again and blame them for something that has absolutely nothing to do with them? What a plan!

-One thing that our (US) automakers did not do as much as the Toyotas of the world is hedge their bets. GMC in particular bet the farm on big gas guzzlers while not simultaneously introducing fuel-efficient economy product lines that were sufficiently marketed.

[Ordie]

GMC in particular bet the farm on big gas guzzlers while not simultaneously introducing fuel-efficient economy product lines that were sufficiently marketed.

But they sold well.
GMC went for profits not for products.

GM, and Ford produces good cars (in Europe) through Opal and Ford. When I traveled within Europe, I often wonder why they did not sell these models back home. I'm willing to bet that Ford will start introducing a single model for the global market like Toyota.

[LineDoggie]

X2
If we hadn't had a strong union movement in our history, we wouldn't have a 7 day work week, minimum wages, and weekends. We would be a country with slave wages, hazardous working conditions, and child labor working in sweatshops.

With that, I wish everyone a good weekend and cherish it. Because many union members were beaten, suffered and died for your right to take two days off.





Spare me the International Workers of the World mantra, The Old time Union workers would piss themselves laughing at how spoiled these guys are now and whining about it. It's rapidly coming to the point where they have a choice. Make a Concessions(Real Concessions) and Keep being Employed, or continue being obstinate sucking the life blood out of the industry like a Vampire and go out of work.

Throwing Bad money down a Rat hole just because the UAW whines isnt going to work anymore. Might have worked in the 1970'-80's but no more.

There has to be a More reasoned way, than just handing them money with no goals.

[LongShot]

The unions have outlived their usefulness.

[ronnieraygun]

But they sold well.
GMC went for profits not for products.

GM, and Ford produces good cars (in Europe) through Opal and Ford. When I traveled within Europe, I often wonder why they did not sell these models back home. I'm willing to bet that Ford will start introducing a single model for the global market like Toyota.

The Hummer, for one, never should have been sold to civilians. How they were supposed to make money long term with that product line for non-military purposes is beyond me. I could be wrong, though -just my two cents.

Funny you mentioned that about the Euro models, I saw all kinds of Fords too I would never see in the US. I kinda wonder if it's Fiesta reluctance. IIRC Ford had a Fiesta they came out with in the very early '80s that was made by Volkswagen. I think that Americans really didn't take to it and that was that - I'm pretty sure the US auto industry has been historically resistant to rapid change of any kind, even when they need it.

[ronnieraygun]

Spare me the International Workers of the World mantra, The Old time Union workers would piss themselves laughing at how spoiled these guys are now and whining about it. It's rapidly coming to the point where they have a choice. Make a Concessions(Real Concessions) and Keep being Employed, or continue being obstinate sucking the life blood out of the industry like a Vampire and go out of work.

Throwing Bad money down a Rat hole just because the UAW whines isnt going to work anymore. Might have worked in the 1970'-80's but no more.

There has to be a More reasoned way, than just handing them money with no goals.

I think auto workers are getting scapegoated here. But to be fair, there are many instances we all know about where union leadership has been obstinate and stupid and screwed their rank and file out of a job. Back when the railroads adapted from steam to the diesel electrive locomotive in the US, for example, the unions insisted on 5 man crews where now only two were really necessary, but they somehow got three out of it anyway. That ended up being part of the problem, not the solution. Railroads went through decades of financial pain and contractions from then on.

Someone came on here earlier and said that most autoworkers have no skills, either. That's complete BS. But to be fair, yes, there are blue collar workers out there who get paid BANK and aren't exactly wrench geniuses. I'm thinking about some of the airline people I've met. Once you get used to a certain income and lifestyle, you tend to take it for granted and think you're entitled to it (everyone here knows those days are long gone, if they ever really existed). However, I still don't know what this has to do with scapegoating workers in the auto industry. Union leadership these days sucks, there is no question. But some of you guys seem envious just because some factory rat is making better coin than you.



The unions have outlived their usefulness.

Yeah, but everyone should realize there was a time when they went to bat for living wages, legislated safe conditions and an interesting concept from the past that work has dignity.

[California Joe]

Look, all I'm saying is the "bailout" playing field should be leveled, and conniving Senators from regions that have been making bank on the backs of non union foreign car companies and have always had a devout hatred of unions should call a spade a spade and own up to their situational ethics.

Of course massive changes should be made to the industry but for f*ckssakes at least they make something, at least something tangible gets manufactured. That should still be important in this country. The middle class of the country depends on it.

All politicians are self serving to a certain degree, some more than others. This is also true for corruption within the union stystem. At this point they are entities unto themselves looking to preserve their power. I don't think some factory worker should be making 40 bucks an hour to drive a forklift a monkey could operate, just because he has seniority in the union shop, but there must be a happy medium somewhere.

If the big 3 had simply started begging before the Wall Street sharks took it all they probably would have had a better shot. Now there is bailout fatigue but the horse has already left the barn. I repeat, AIG was given 150 billion and hasn't done a f*cking thing except make it dissapear.

[LongShot]

Yeah, but everyone should realize there was a time when they went to bat for living wages, legislated safe conditions and an interesting concept from the past that work has dignity.

Oh, there was once a very real reason to have unions, and they accomplished a many great things against sometimes nearly impossible odds....but now they indeed do suck the very life out of the possible profitability in US auto companies.

[Macs.]

The Hummer, for one, never should have been sold to civilians. How they were supposed to make money long term with that product line for non-military purposes is beyond me. I could be wrong, though -just my two cents.

There certainly was (and still is) a niche for Hummer. Back then the military Hummer H1 was already developed and it was a smart move to simply convert it to a civilian version since the costs of "development"/transformation were simply small and there certainly was a demand for such a vehicle. However the course GM took with Hummer was simply very risky. They tried to exploit the brand without (it seems) to calculate that the SUV branch might fall one day.

Now you got the brand Hummer almost dead, and you not only have the H1, you got a H2, H3, H3T and a H4 supposed to be coming in the next years. Lots of development-money, and I believe quite a few dealerships in the US. Maybe they should have stayed a niche model instead of trying to offer a huge variation of cars.


Funny you mentioned that about the Euro models, I saw all kinds of Fords too I would never see in the US. I kinda wonder if it's Fiesta reluctance. IIRC Ford had a Fiesta they came out with in the very early '80s that was made by Volkswagen. I think that Americans really didn't take to it and that was that - I'm pretty sure the US auto industry has been historically resistant to rapid change of any kind, even when they need it.

Ford UK/Germany is developing the cars for the European market, and the once they produce are simply totally different to the US specs.

In the next years Ford will import the Euro-Spec models to the US, the Fiesta, C-Max and the Kuga.

[Laworkerbee]

I like when CJ learns me on stuff.

[JKD]

DETROIT - United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger says he negotiated with conservative Senator Bob Corker, Republican from Tennessee, to get the $14 billion General Motors/Chrysler bailout passed Thursday night. The GOP Caucus rejected the Gettelfinger/Corker compromise and "tried to mandate the precise wage structure for workers," the UAW president says.

"We were prepared to make further sacrifices," Gettelfinger said at his Friday morning press conference. Senate Republicans, however, led by Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and Richard Shelby of Alabama, demanded a specific date in 2009 when the UAW would lower its wage structure to reach parity with non-union, foreign-brand automakers building cars and trucks in such states as Tennessee, Kentucky and Alabama. "The UAW is being treated differently than other stakeholders," Gettelfinger said. He noted that Volkswagen AG is getting a bailout from the German government and referred to a Toyota internal document uncovered last year that indicates its Georgetown, Kentucky, plant essentially pays its workers about $2 more than Detroit Three UAW workers.

To throw yet another irony on top of financial ruin and scandal, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson Friday morning has indicated he'll consider funding the short-term GM/Chrysler bailout from Troubled Asset Relief Program funds. The Bush administration has repeatedly opposed using TARP money for the automakers.

If Bush, who doesn't want to end his administration by throwing the nation -- perhaps the world -- into a depression, gives Paulson the green light, GM and Chrysler will get a loan bailout that represents 1/50th of the $700-billion appropriated for the TARP. As of Friday morning, it looks like that might actually happen.

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6380549/government/tarp-bailout-now-likely-gettelfinger-says-republicans-were-out-to-crush-uaw/index.html

[ronnieraygun]

In the next years Ford will import the Euro-Spec models to the US, the Fiesta, C-Max and the Kuga.

Niiice. Vielen Dank fur ze learning, Macs. You could probably write a column with your automotive industry knowledge. So are you telling us the Fester (fiesta) is coming back?

[Ordie]

Make a Concessions(Real Concessions) and Keep being Employed, or continue being obstinate sucking the life blood out of the industry like a Vampire and go out of work.

Throwing Bad money down a Rat hole just because the UAW whines isnt going to work anymore. Might have worked in the 1970'-80's but no more.

There has to be a More reasoned way, than just handing them money with no goals.

Concession on wages is not the issue.
Much of the savings can be gained through work rule changes and up to date industrial engineering concepts.

The UAW reperesents Toyota/GM auto workers at a joint facility in Fremont, California. These workers are well paid and is considered the most efficient plant in North America producing Toyota Tacomas and Pontiac Vibe.

Given your anti-union attitudes, God help you if you're injured and your life depended on Union Police Officers, Firefighters, EMT and Nurses to save your life.

[Macs.]

Niiice. Vielen Dank fur ze learning, Macs. You could probably write a column with your automotive industry knowledge. So are you telling us the Fester (fiesta) is coming back?

Yeah, end of 2009 or 2010 is the plan IIRC.

I recently was at their presentation and it's really a well done car that will be/is very compative in it's class.

[Karl_Kroenen]

Look, all I'm saying is the "bailout" playing field should be leveled, and conniving Senators from regions that have been making bank on the backs of non union foreign car companies and have always had a devout hatred of unions should call a spade a spade and own up to their situational ethics.

Of course massive changes should be made to the industry but for f*ckssakes at least they make something, at least something tangible gets manufactured. That should still be important in this country. The middle class of the country depends on it.

All politicians are self serving to a certain degree, some more than others. This is also true for corruption within the union stystem. At this point they are entities unto themselves looking to preserve their power. I don't think some factory worker should be making 40 bucks an hour to drive a forklift a monkey could operate, just because he has seniority in the union shop, but there must be a happy medium somewhere.

If the big 3 had simply started begging before the Wall Street sharks took it all they probably would have had a better shot. Now there is bailout fatigue but the horse has already left the barn. I repeat, AIG was given 150 billion and hasn't done a f*cking thing except make it dissapear.

How about they consider Chapter 11?

The unions are scared of bankruptcy enough that they claimed they would compromise, but that won't fly.

How about unions negotiate on benefits? I'm sure the solvency of the automakers would improve if they didn't have such enormous obligations to workers.

Also predictions for the actual amount of a useful bail out were absurd. 15 billion would not have been enough when GM's hemorrhaging cash and is being crushed under the weight of its liabilities.

The Big 3 need to declare bankruptcy (especially GM) and reorganize if they want to see 2010.

[Parx400]

Spectacular post fail. FTSE lost 2.65% in the first 90 minutes so far.


Hour and a half left till closing. The DOW is only down 43 points and the Nasi Up 7. Take your fail and shove it.

[Ordie]

How about they consider Chapter 11?

The unions are scared of bankruptcy enough that they claimed they would compromise, but that won't fly.

How about unions negotiate on benefits? I'm sure the solvency of the automakers would improve if they didn't have such enormous obligations to workers.

Also predictions for the actual amount of a useful bail out were absurd. 15 billion would not have been enough when GM's hemorrhaging cash and is being crushed under the weight of its liabilities.

The Big 3 need to declare bankruptcy (especially GM) and reorganize if they want to see 2010.

Bankruptcy will send shockwaves to the suppliers. Which in turn will hurt the non-union Toyota, BMW and DB plants in the south.

[ronnieraygun]

Bankruptcy will send shockwaves to the suppliers. Which in turn will hurt the non-union Toyota, BMW and DB plants in the south.


Bankruptcy will send shochwaves through the shippers. This will cost jobs.

Bankruptcy will send shockwaves through the dealers, who will close in large numbers. This will cost jobs.

Bankruptcy will send shockwaves through the financiers, who will have fewer people to whom they may lend money. (nevermind, those people are already ****ed)

Bankruptcy will send shockwaves through the retailers who carry the parts made by the people Ordie mentioned.

Bankruptcy will send send shockwaves through gas stations/convenience stores because there will be fewer people on the road to buy gas and Twinkies and 99 cent Droolburgers.

Gloom and doom? Maybe. Sound far fetched? It's not.

[Karl_Kroenen]

Bankruptcy will send shockwaves to the suppliers. Which in turn will hurt the non-union Toyota, BMW and DB plants in the south.

Apparently they're more concerned about consumer confidence, which is why they've resisted any drastic reorganization so far.

I think bankruptcy will be the only choice though when their liabilities come to term.

[Parx400]

Concession on wages is not the issue.
Much of the savings can be gained through work rule changes and up to date industrial engineering concepts.

The UAW reperesents Toyota/GM auto workers at a joint facility in Fremont, California. These workers are well paid and is considered the most efficient plant in North America producing Toyota Tacomas and Pontiac Vibe.

Given your anti-union attitudes, God help you if you're injured and your life depended on Union Police Officers, Firefighters, EMT and Nurses to save your life.


You are correct about the work rules. There should be no rules or seniority. In Toyota plants if you do job A and dont have any work you dont sit on your ass doing nothign while being paid. You go and do Job B.

Unions can be useful but the ones in the US have piss poor leadership. The Unions should be the ones pushing for workers to have the best cutting edge training in the fields they work. The Auto Unions in Germany do this AND pay for it. They should spend their money to make sure the workers have the best skills and education in the field they work. They should also use the money to buy better health coverage direct from the healthcare providers. Not shoving it down the pants of the DNC so they can get hand outs.

The Most efficiant plant in the US is either the Accord or Camery plant. It is as close to a SKYNET for building cars as you can get.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Concession on wages is not the issue.
Much of the savings can be gained through work rule changes and up to date industrial engineering concepts.
But a more efficient shop would employ fewer workers. And the UAW doesn't ever give any ground on outsorcing.

I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, but if they want government money, why would they complain about having to accept what non-union shops do for similar work?

IIRC, Ford laid of workers and they continued to receive benefits and a high fraction of their pay for something like a year. I have issues with that.

A little anecdote; the company I previously worked for was setting up an exhibit at a trade show in Chicago. IIRC, for any item over a certain weight, you were obliged to accept union help, and pay for it.

[Parx400]

But a more efficient shop would employ fewer workers. And the UAW doesn't ever give any ground on outsorcing.

I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, but if they want government money, why would they complain about having to accept what non-union shops do for similar work?

IIRC, Ford laid of workers and they continued to receive benefits and a high fraction of their pay for something like a year. I have issues with that.


The less workers part is the problem for them. A more Efficent shop may help the company gain market share and create Different jobs. They will require more training and education.

The trade show Union thing is BS. We had the same issue in Vegas. We were not allowed to roll out or carry anything. Some fat ass on a fork lift had to come get our stuff, weigh it, and then take it to the location. They even had signs up saying you could not verbly assault Union members. WTF. So not only are you charging me but taking my right of free speech away?

My old boss said you could not change a light bult in your own trade show both at trade show in chicago. Infact durring a contruction trade show he was at the Union rep told the Director of Sales from Dewalt at the time that a Unionized worker had to come out to replace the bult on equipment OWNED by Dewalt. Since it was late on a SAT it would be 1 hours labor 2 times the normal rate.

[LongShot]

A little anecdote; the company I previously worked for was setting up an exhibit at a trade show in Chicago. IIRC, for any item over a certain weight, you were obliged to accept union help, and pay for it.


My GF worked in Detroit for over three years as a financial analyst for chrysler....she was reported by a union worker for picking up a piece of trash on the shop floor and throwing it away. Its against Union policy for non-union workers to do so because it could endanger their jobs if all the salaried office staff started pouring down onto the factory floor to pick up trash....

[Laworkerbee]

My GF worked in Detroit for over three years as a financial analyst for chrysler....she was reported by a union worker for picking up a piece of trash on the shop floor and throwing it away. Its against Union policy for non-union workers to do so because it could endanger their jobs if all the salaried office staff started pouring down onto the factory floor to pick up trash....

I was reported for something similar by an ABC employee. I got tired of waiting and carried tape from one studio to another, literally 50 meters.

They **** bricks and the union mindset has disgusted me ever since.

[LongShot]

I was reported for something similar by an ABC employee. I got tired of waiting and carried tape from one studio to another, literally 50 meters.

They **** bricks and unions have disgusted me ever since.


Ive never heard of this in public service unions.....Police, EMT/FD etc....why is that?

[Laworkerbee]

Ive never heard of this in public service unions.....Police, EMT/FD etc....why is that?

I believe because these people have a duty and follow a higher calling.

[SoCalEMT]

If you all think that the UAW is dysfunctional, you should come and have a gander at the way the Port of LA/Long Beach is managed. The ILWU have managed to keep the port the finest functioning container terminal of 1975. I simply can't stand the rationale of "we did such great things in 1937, suffer our excesses and greed today out of sheer gratitude".

[Airgun_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Lt-Col A. Tack http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3759355#post3759355)

A little anecdote; the company I previously worked for was setting up an exhibit at a trade show in Chicago. IIRC, for any item over a certain weight, you were obliged to accept union help, and pay for it.



My GF worked in Detroit for over three years as a financial analyst for chrysler....she was reported by a union worker for picking up a piece of trash on the shop floor and throwing it away. Its against Union policy for non-union workers to do so because it could endanger their jobs if all the salaried office staff started pouring down onto the factory floor to pick up trash....

This is how unions operate? To Hell with them then.

In Mexico is the same BS with the Oil Workers Union, and Teacher Syndicates. It's just a gigantic mob that grew from protecting workers rights to have the power to blackmail presidential candidates to favor them or else they would go to the other side.

[SoCalEMT]

Ive never heard of this in public service unions.....Police, EMT/FD etc....why is that?

Out here municipal services have unionized membership, but private EMS outfits are generally not union shops. I've worked for both, and can say that all the union did (Teamsters) was reduce our already pitiful earnings through compulsion of dues, and get us slightly cheaper health insurance than the usual Kaiser offered at the competition. Same with R.N.s. The most incompetent, lazy, and frequently stupid nurses I've had to deal with work union shops, and the best, without exception were union-free. Killer King anybody?

[LongShot]

I believe because these people have a duty and follow a higher calling.



My thoughts too.

[LineDoggie]

Concession on wages is not the issue.


Much of the savings can be gained through work rule changes and up to date industrial engineering concepts.

The UAW reperesents Toyota/GM auto workers at a joint facility in Fremont, California. These workers are well paid and is considered the most efficient plant in North America producing Toyota Tacomas and Pontiac Vibe.
It isnt just wages paid for working the floor. Healthcare for Retirees is a huge sucking sound in those plants, and adds significant costs to each Autmobile made. Management isnt innocent by any means either. They've ****ed the puppy on this for years. Who the **** needs an H2, H3, H4? Caddy Escalade? Yet we get force fed these as symbols that we must purchase them aor we are somehow less.



Given your anti-union attitudes, God help you if you're injured and your life depended on Union Police Officers, Firefighters, EMT and Nurses to save your life.

That Dog wont Hunt- I was a Union Member for 14 years, And Know exactly what they do well for their Members and what they do well for THEMSELVES. How about you?

I've worked in the Construction Industry and Service Industry. I've been on strike for a Loooong cold winter with no suport from the Union who put us on strike. My Union Boss was at one time considered the most corrupt in the USA, guess what? he was.

You cant be serious that if a Police Officer or Firefighter wasnt a Union Member that they wouldnt do their job. That happens to fly in the face of History mac.

Being a Union member doesnt make one suddenly Competant or Eager at their Profession, if you believe that, I got a Bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

[SoCalEMT]

I believe because these people have a duty and follow a higher calling.

Nope. Chicks dig uniforms.

[Laworkerbee]

Killer King anybody?

Thinking of that places makes me shiver. The LAPD has an unspoken rule, never deliver wounded\hurt officers to King, ever!

[JKD]

Hour and a half left till closing. The DOW is only down 43 points and the Nasi Up 7. Take your fail and shove it.

Things started turning around when the Treasury and the White House said they would make funds available to the automakers

[Ordie]

It isnt just wages paid for working the floor. Healthcare for Retirees is a huge sucking sound in those plants, and adds significant costs to each Autmobile made. Management isnt innocent by any means either. They've ****ed the puppy on this for years. Who the **** needs an H2, H3, H4? Caddy Escalade? Yet we get force fed these as symbols that we must purchase them aor we are somehow less.

That Dog wont Hunt- I was a Union Member for 14 years, And Know exactly what they do well for their Members and what they do well for THEMSELVES. How about you?

I've worked in the Construction Industry and Service Industry. I've been on strike for a Loooong cold winter with no suport from the Union who put us on strike. My Union Boss was at one time considered the most corrupt in the USA, guess what? he was.

You cant be serious that if a Police Officer or Firefighter wasnt a Union Member that they wouldnt do their job. That happens to fly in the face of History mac.

Being a Union member doesnt make one suddenly Competant or Eager at their Profession, if you believe that, I got a Bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

As well I am a union member.

We are about 200 members. All of our meetings and budget are transparent and open. Most of us are in our 40's and have never been in a union before. Therefore we are not aware nor influenced of past union practices and mis-deeds. Our Union leaders act more like facilitators and we have a very good dialougue with management.

As a policy we do not arbitrate every lost cause for disciplnary issues, nor do we focus on work rule issues. We're salary employees thus giving our employer a better handle on budgeting in the long term.

If there's a budget crisis, we do everything to mitigate costs.

I am happy that I have a good salary, paid vacations, health care, dental, matching 401K, paid time for reserve military service, a pension with 5 years to vest at 2.5%, and quality time to be with my loved ones thanks to the union and my employers.

[Michigun]

Most people who arent from Michigan will never understand how important the big 3 are to the economy here. Its funny how ever since the news stations brought up the union workers thats all the topic has been about instead of the actual big 3 going down. The union workers dont really make up that large of a percentage of people who will be affected by them going down. All the supply factories that are involved are anti union. Now you got the toolbags that have no clue what there talking about saying im never going to buy an American car again because i hate the UAW. I guess you hate hundreds of thousands of other people who all hate the union and have no relation to them but work in the supply factories that are now out of jobs.
Ive worked in the plastics company that made plastic pieces for gm chrysler ford nissan and toyota but there closing down. Now my dad and sister are out of a job guess what there not union. Which is whats going on all around Michigan right now all the supply factories are closing up and thousands of non union people are out of jobs.

[Zoomie]

Bankruptcy will send shockwaves to the suppliers. Which in turn will hurt the non-union Toyota, BMW and DB plants in the south.Booofreakinghoo, regardless of what happens the big 3 will sink and send out shockwaves.

Want to see how pathetic UAW?
Here's their contract, 22lbs of BS:
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7126/photoxj0.jpg

Source (http://laborpains.org/2008/12/12/22-pounds-uaw-rules-and-regulations/)

[Michigun]

^Your statements are so retarded they contradict themselves. Ordie said non union jobs which are the supply factories and there you are posting about the UAW again because thats all you know about the situation and your a tool which is funny because that makes my statement in my previous post real life evidence to how ignorant some people can be.

[Laworkerbee]

You boys in Detroit are real passionate about the subject, too bad you weren't so passionate about building cars people wanted to buy.

[Zoomie]

^Your statements are so retarded they contradict themselves. Ordie said non union jobs which are the supply factories and there you are posting about the UAW again because thats all you know about the situation and your a tool which is funny because that makes my statement in my previous post real life evidence to how ignorant some people can be.
I just love how you come out swinging with the retarded bat without trying to make a case for anything. How pathetic. You fail at situational awareness as they're 2 separate statements. :roll:

First part I said irregardless, note - no mention of unions - just the big 3, and that they will sink no matter what.

The second part about the UAW contract was posted to show how incapable of change, and resistant to change UAW will be.

[Michigun]

Im sorry i actually know about cars and dont buy into the whole its foreign its better concept on the other hand you probably dont even know what to look for when buying a car except how may cup holders it has. Ill tell you a story about my work, we make the plastic interior and exterior pieces for the big 3 toyota and nissan and guess what the plastic all comes from the same place and made from the same material. When I hear people say oh the plastic in nissan or toyota cars is so much better i laugh because it all came from the same drum of plastic beads.
Guess what maybe if you got out of Cali take a drive down south then up here to the east coast and you will see alot of people still buy American cars and dont buy everything the media says. Im sorry for loving the country i live in and helping my fellow citizens out. Maybe people over in cali dont like America but over here we still do.

[INAT]

Let’s say the military industry was in trouble and Northrop Grumman, Lockheed and Raytheon were asking for a bailout loan
or grant. Would they get it?

Should the auto industry completely collapse and rebuild itself?

[Laworkerbee]

Im sorry i actually know about cars and dont buy into the whole its foreign its better concept on the other hand you probably dont even know what to look for when buying a car except how may cup holders it has. Ill tell you a story about my work, we make the plastic interior and exterior pieces for the big 3 toyota and nissan and guess what the plastic all comes from the same place and made from the same material. When I hear people say oh the plastic in nissan or toyota cars is so much better i laugh because it all came from the same drum of plastic beads.
Guess what maybe if you got out of Cali take a drive down south then up here to the east coast and you will see alot of people still buy American cars and dont buy everything the media says. Im sorry for loving the country i live in and helping my fellow citizens out. Maybe people over in cali dont like America but over here we still do.

What the **** does living in California or buying an American car have to do with loving my country?

You're whole game of "Buy American, Be Patriotic" is bull**** and nothing more, it worked on my Grandfather but it sure as hell isn't going to work on me.

Make better products or fail; that is the American way. You sound like a God damned Frenchman to be honest.

[Michigun]

I agree with you zoomie about the big 3 and so does everyone else In the auto industry. We even have shirts that people wear at work with anti union slogans and such but my point is this is about the big 3 and not the UAW. People always gotta bring it up and then start there judgements from there which is completely retarded and ignorant.

[Michigun]

I gurantee i can take the labels and logos off of 2 new cars one American one Foreign and you wouldnt know the difference. Buy a car because you like the car not the maker. You cant stand there and tell me every car the big 3 have put out since there existence have been ****. I dont know why your so against American cars your brainwashed by the media end of story.

[gayarabianman]

The thing that gets me about all this bailout madness is.
Seeing how were talking so much money here, who's money is it?
The public's money.
Whose Future is at stake?
The public's?
or some silly old idiotic senator that won't lose his future if things go pair shaped?
What should happen on something this huge and crucial is a public vote no?
At the end of the day who has more at stake here?
The public ie there jobs, future prospects, providing for their families
This simply should go-to a public vote instead of them pricks in power who don't suffer the consequences if **** hits the fan.

[Macs.]

I gurantee i can take the labels and logos off of 2 new cars one American one Foreign and you wouldnt know the difference. Buy a car because you like the car not the maker. You cant stand there and tell me every car the big 3 have put out since there existence have been ****. I dont know why your so against American cars your brainwashed by the media end of story.

You write a load of bull****.

[Laworkerbee]

I gurantee i can take the labels and logos off of 2 new cars one American one Foreign and you wouldnt know the difference. Buy a car because you like the car not the maker. You cant stand there and tell me every car the big 3 have put out since there existence have been ****. I dont know why your so against American cars your brainwashed by the media end of story.

I drive a German made Passat Wagon with 6 Cylinders; Detroit makes nothing like it. I have dual clutches for Christ's sake.

[BlackFlag]

Not good for a lot of people I know. Especially some of my friends parents. Alot of them are only 4-5 years away from retirement.

[can]

It's their choice. They have been living in a dream world where someone with little to no real skill gets paid 70K with Gold plated health care. I work for one of the BIG 4 accounting firms and don't get as good of health care and mine is ranked one of the best. I also make less then 70K. If the workers want to work for what their skills are worth they will have a job. If not, then the jobs will leave and head to the south.
At least they have some skills. Those Harvard MBA'S on Wall Street can't build a car or find their ass with both hands either.

[BlackFlag]

At least they have some skills. Those Harvard MBA'S on Wall Street can't build a car or find their ass with both hands either.

Actually the sad thing is that a lot, if not most UAW jobs require little or no skilled trades. In Michigan during the 60's-70's Thousands of people went straight from high school to work in a Big 3 (excluding American Motors). A lot of middle aged people will soon find themselves unemployed with no real skill set or education to fall back on.

A whole generation is about to get f*cked over.

[Michigun]

I dont care what you drive i drive a 96 ws6 trans am with 160k on the clock that still runs 12.5 at 114 does it matter. Your not going to tell me every American car is a piece.

[Laworkerbee]

I dont care what you drive i drive a 96 ws6 trans am with 160k on the clock that still runs 12.5 at 114 does it matter. Your not going to tell me every American car is a piece.

I won't tell you every American car is a piece of crap, that wouldn't be factual. What is factual is that Detroit isn't selling cars that people want man. The proof is in the pudding.

But then again what the hell do I know since I'm an unpatriotic Californian who just happens to have a 1966 Mustang sitting in his garage, you know, from when America made kick ass cars :roll:

[CPL Trevoga]

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7126/photoxj0.jpg

Source (http://laborpains.org/2008/12/12/22-pounds-uaw-rules-and-regulations/)

Yeah, this is bad, but Unions are good for working people, otherwise rich people will f*ck you in every orifice possible. I'm against unions in government though.

[LineDoggie]

Im sorry i actually know about cars and dont buy into the whole its foreign its better concept on the other hand you probably dont even know what to look for when buying a car except how may cup holders it has. :roll: Umm, yeah, and while I'm perusing cup holders your trying to figure out how many doors a sedan has.....




Ill tell you a story about my work, we make the plastic interior and exterior pieces for the big 3 toyota and nissan and guess what the plastic all comes from the same place and made from the same material. When I hear people say oh the plastic in nissan or toyota cars is so much better i laugh because it all came from the same drum of plastic beads.

Never heard anyone bitch about the plastic, and thats in 30 years of being a Driver. Never heard My Father, and Uncles bitch about the plastic either,Never heard any of My Friends ever bitch about the plastic parts so I think your spinning your wheels here.





Guess what maybe if you got out of Cali take a drive down south then up here to the east coast and you will see alot of people still buy American cars and dont buy everything the media says. I counted 6 American Cars & SUV's on My block. the rest are either Audi/BMW's/ Range Rovers/Pathfinders/Landcruisers/Minivans, oh and one Ford Galaxy 500 the one armed guy on the corner still drives.. There are at Least 65 families on this block. Queens, NYC.




Im sorry for loving the country i live in and helping my fellow citizens out. Maybe people over in cali dont like America but over here we still do.

Well well, so now unless we buy everything we own from the USA we're Bad People :roll:, killing this country right Jim Bob?

Guess My 27 years in the Army dont count towards love of Country, who'da thunk it.

I suppose your TV must be an Old Zenith non Cable Capable with Rabbit Ears, huh?

Your Computer must be hand assembled

I'll Buy American, IF it matches my Budget, Needs, and Convienence, not because someone tells me I have to, this isnt Soviet Union Deux yet.


My First Car was a Used 1972 Pontiac Catalina, I Loved it. My Next was a New Chevy Malibu that was an unmitigated POS. That the Factory couldnt even clear coat properly. The paint job faded away and started rusting the Roof. On the whole I've found Japanese Autos better Gas, Maintenance,wise. But thats Me

[Michigun]

Americans still make kick ass cars my friend look up the top cars that run the nuremburg ring all American production cars. I actually wouldnt like that 66 mustang there nice cruisers but not enough muscle for me and a dime a dozen at the car shows here.

[Michigun]

Umm, yeah, and while I'm perusing cup holders your trying to figure out how many doors a sedan has.....

8?<sarcasm> Your right i wouldnt know because i only buy coupes
Nowhere in my post did i say you have to buy American actually if you go and reread it i said buy the car not the make. The plastic thing is kinda funny since you tole me i have an old tv n such but if you turned yours on or picked up a car magazine once n awhile you would know what im talking about. Im sorry to hear about noone driving American where you live i look down my street and see all except a few American cars and yes i love my country that is why i joined the Navy.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=8059085&version=16&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

[Macs.]

It does have nothing to do with location, it simply was bad business being done by people as the ball was still "rolling" and they didn't bother to look 1 year into the future, or think about what could be happening.

This crisis has hit every big car brand, some are doing very bad (The "big American 3"), and some come very well through this crisis. (Audi would be the example of a "winner" in this crisis)

Here is a list as of today, and I picked out a few factories that will be affected by the cut. Do you see a pattern ?


General Motors announced today they will cut production in the first quarter of 2009 by 250,000 units, or approximately 30% of total capacity, affecting 21 plants in three countries.U.S.:
* Ft. Wayne (Ind.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Regular and Extended Cab
* Flint Assembly (Mich.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Heavy Duty Regular and Crew Cab & Medium Duty
* Wentzville (Mo.) - Chevy Express, GMC Savanna
* Lansing Delta Township (Mich.) - Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook
* Pontiac Assembly (Mich.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Heavy Duty Extended Cab
* Spring Hill (Tenn.) - Chevy Traverse
* Fairfax Assembly (Kan.) - Chevrolet Malibu/Hybrid, Saturn Aura/Hybrid
* Arlington Assembly (Texas) - Full Size SUVs: Chevy Suburban, Tahoe & Tahoe Hybrid, GMC Yukon, Yukon XL & Yukon Hybrid, Cadillac Escalade/Escalade ESV & Escalade Hybrid
* Lansing Grand River (Mich.) - Cadillac STS & CTS
* Orion (Mich.) - Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6
* Detroit-Hamtramck (Mich.) - Buick Lucerne, Cadillac DTS
* Shreveport (La.) - Chevy Colorado, GMC Canyon, Hummer H3 & H3T
* Bowling Green (Ky.) - Chevy Corvette, Cadillac XLR
* Wilmington (Del.) - Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky, Opel GT


Canada:
* Oshawa Consolidated - Chevy Impala
* Oshawa Truck - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Extended and Crew Cab
* CAMI - Chevy Equinox, Pontiac Torrent


Mexico:
* Silao - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Crew Cab, Chevy Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade EXT
* Ramos 2 - Chevy HHR, Saturn VUE, Chevy Captiva
* San Luis Potosi - Chevy Aveo, Pontiac G3

Out 20 factories that are being cut, 13 produce SUVs. Coincidence ?

Why didn't GM cut this earlier ? Why is GM producing such a variety of cars that are in the same class, instead of simply only producing few that are based on the same basis which would save alot of money in both producing and developing cars ? Why did GM take such a big nap during development that they missed huge trends ?

And that's obviously only the tip of the iceberg.

Take a look at VW/Audi and how they transformed their companies in the last years/decade and figure why Audi is during this crisis still making MORE sales while everyone else is losing huge amounts of sale.

[Kilgor]

IMO, I dont think the big three ever quite learned after the arse reaming of the late 70s and 80's. The large vehicle market such as the SUV';s saved them for a while, but now after a savage downturn its obviously they have no other profitable area to back themselves up. This situation has been decades in the making, and why its more of a systemic problem rather than a "current" phase.

[Michigun]

Read the link in my post i guess bush went around the senate and passed the bill taking the money out of the banks loan.

[Macs.]

So how much will they get ? Still the 14 Billion $ ?

[Michigun]

I think its either 10 or 14B but dont take my word on it. I know ford bailed out of the bailout a couple days ago so its only gm and chrysler which makes me think its 10B. I like the fact Bush took the money from the bank bailout though.

[Macs.]

GM alone had a loss of over $15 Billion dollar in the second quarter.

They are gonna burn through that money quick.

[Airgun_Hunter]

I gurantee i can take the labels and logos off of 2 new cars one American one Foreign and you wouldnt know the difference. Buy a car because you like the car not the maker. You cant stand there and tell me every car the big 3 have put out since there existence have been ****. I dont know why your so against American cars your brainwashed by the media end of story.

The quality of the plastic.

But, fuel efficiency and engine/tranny reliability.

American made middle/compact size are just JUNK.
Mexico takes the used car's you guys won't use anymore.

Proof of that?
You see old 80's Japanese cars stil running with the same engine and tranny, you see '90's - '05's american cars that have failed transmissions, engines and just needing repairs very often.

I still have a '93 Toyota Tercel. Once I was running it on only 1qt of engine oil for about 15 days and the engine didn't break. Unfortunately I can't say the same on an american model.

My father and brothers all migrated to Toyota trucks and left their 07's Fords, Dodges and Chevy's at the dealer.

So yeah... Japanese cars are way more reliable and less probe to mechanical failure. That MUST mean something.

[Michigun]

Your stories can go both ways my friend and trust me they have and always will. If you want to impress me try beating a 1971 350 engine that has lasted through 55 demolition derbys without ever being rebuilt and i can gurantee you it ran on less oil then what you described. My 96 trans am has 380 hp 160k on clock and gets 30 mpg on the highway the new zr1 corvette has 638 hp and gets 26 mpg on highway. go talk to your local shops and ask them how many jap cars to u.s cars they have coming into them youll be surprised its about equal.Umm i can keep going if youd like i havea 91 dodge shadow that has never failed me and thats my winter beater that i do beat on.Japanese cars are way more reliable and less probe to mechanical failure. That MUST mean something. It must mean you are ignorant and dont know a whole lot about cars.

[LineDoggie]

Everyones who doesnt agree with you is Ignorant, huh? :roll:

[CPL Trevoga]

Umm, yeah, and while I'm perusing cup holders your trying to figure out how many doors a sedan has.....

8?<sarcasm> Your right i wouldnt know because i only buy coupes
Nowhere in my post did i say you have to buy American actually if you go and reread it i said buy the car not the make. The plastic thing is kinda funny since you tole me i have an old tv n such but if you turned yours on or picked up a car magazine once n awhile you would know what im talking about. Im sorry to hear about noone driving American where you live i look down my street and see all except a few American cars and yes i love my country that is why i joined the Navy.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=8059085&version=16&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

There is another thing. I had a Ford while back, it was made in Mexico and my sis has a Honda that was made in USA. So, which brand is American?

[Michigun]

The Ford since the money from the purchase of the car comes back to American car companies and the money from the Honda goes overseas. Im not saying you cant buy anything other than American cars go back and find that in any one of my post. I like alot of foreign cars and i like the fact that they are creating jobs in the U.S. Im just trying to set a few facts straight about the big 3 and auto industry and now i guess American cars in general and for some reason people dont like being told American cars dont suck kinda wierd.

[Zoomie]

I agree with you zoomie about the big 3 and so does everyone else In the auto industry. We even have shirts that people wear at work with anti union slogans and such but my point is this is about the big 3 and not the UAW. People always gotta bring it up and then start there judgements from there which is completely retarded and ignorant.
So are/were you even a Seabee?


I won't tell you every American car is a piece of crap, that wouldn't be factual. What is factual is that Detroit isn't selling cars that people want man. The proof is in the pudding.

But then again what the hell do I know since I'm an unpatriotic Californian who just happens to have a 1966 Mustang sitting in his garage, you know, from when America made kick ass cars :roll:
You still hate America because you don't have a new car, you UnAmerican, scarf wearing hippie! p-)

[firemedic]

Concession on wages is not the issue.
Much of the savings can be gained through work rule changes and up to date industrial engineering concepts.

The UAW reperesents Toyota/GM auto workers at a joint facility in Fremont, California. These workers are well paid and is considered the most efficient plant in North America producing Toyota Tacomas and Pontiac Vibe.

Given your anti-union attitudes, God help you if you're injured and your life depended on Union Police Officers, Firefighters, EMT and Nurses to save your life.

I'm a firefighter/medic/nurse and I'm not union. besides It's illegal for us to go on strike. I agree to work for a specific amount of pay, if I want more, I increase my productivity. If I'm not happy with my employer I have the option to work somewhere else.

[Michigun]

Im a depper right now, that was the job i was at before joining.

[Ordie]

I'm against unions in government though.

Including firefighters, police and public works?

The only reason why we attract good people to these jobs are Union wages, benefits and security. Most taxpayers would rather pay for longevity than deal with a high turnover.

[Ordie]

I'm a firefighter/medic/nurse and I'm not union. besides It's illegal for us to go on strike. I agree to work for a specific amount of pay, if I want more, I increase my productivity. If I'm not happy with my employer I have the option to work somewhere else.

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States to...encourag[e] the practice and procedure of collective bargaining and [to] protect...the exercise by workers of full freedom of association, self-organization and designation of representatives of their own choosing, for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment or other mutual aid or protection.
—National Labor Relations Act

Because it's illegal to strike in your workplace, it does not preclude you and your co-workers the right to collective bargaining.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I drive a German made Passat Wagon with 6 Cylinders; Detroit makes nothing like it. I have dual clutches for Christ's sake.

great to see reality. I have got a German Made Audi A5 (http://www.audi.com.tr/Audi/A5.aspx)...no US car close to this awesome piece of cake in any spec here.

Lets be honest, if the dozens Harvard-MIT MBAs covered detroit guys do not feel to desire to build same kind of cars, lets give a chance to LM's unique aircrafts to bomb the unshilded weak Germany car factories to give a chance to be equal in some terms. No!!! ohhh..Unions,damn unions... p-)

[PrinzEugen]

^^True, can't compare the two. The misses got a Chrysler Voyager and I had to "settle" for a BMW 330, completely different segment but worlds apart non the less.

[can]

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States to...encourag[e] the practice and procedure of collective bargaining and [to] protect...the exercise by workers of full freedom of association, self-organization and designation of representatives of their own choosing, for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment or other mutual aid or protection.
—National Labor Relations Act

Because it's illegal to strike in your workplace, it does not preclude you and your co-workers the right to collective bargaining.


Thats is correct. I am an IAFF Firefighter,and if not for Public Safty Unions we would still be dealing with chinese overtime,24/24 shifts,and a whole host of work rules that make it difficult to do the job and have a family life.That being said the Union knows the reality of City budgets and 54 hour work weeks, and part time day off gigs are normal.

[Mackie]

To post something positive.
This is also a GM:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/opel_insignia_1.jpg
Car of the Year 2009 - outperformed Toyotas and VWs.
Produced in Europes most productive plant

[11 Bravo]

Yeah, this is bad, but Unions are good for working people, otherwise rich people will f*ck you in every orifice possible. I'm against unions in government though.

I work in a trade and around trades every day that are heavily unionized and I have to tell you I am glad I am not union.
Yellow dog unionistas tend to be about as productive as a homeless drunk. I watch many of these union companies lose loads of production time , materials and work ethic is every day. I see them toss loads of new material away...... damage - they don't care... prove it's them is their attitude. And they take their breaks like clockwork with always extra time - the jobsites stop dead irregardless.
They pay their dues that support politics that to me are sickening. There is a whole undercurrent of lazyness in the majority of unions I have encountered. My company is getting ever more work as many GC's simply have tired with the cost/hassle of union types has proven to be to them.
There was a time when unions were the very medicine for the workforce against huge business concerns.... those days are gone in this country , but we are still plagued by corrupt unions that drain the very life out of the businesses that support their labor.
With thousands upon thousands of UAW types getting paid while in "job banks" sucking the blood from the automakers it's no wonder the US Auto industry is failing... their ponzi scheme is coming due !. A good friend of mine spent 30 years in the UAW in ohio.... his stories are funny and sad on how the union can and will screw the pooch. Try that in a private business and you're gone buddy... but the mafia UAW will protect worthless slobs and award them gobs of money and their job back through BS litigation and or threats.A guy I work with whom was from michigan , his brother works at GM as a salaried electrical engineer. His stories of working loads of OT with no compensation , where his union counterparts start and stop on the dime... and don't ask them to do overtime. His benefits are a good deal shy of all the perks the unionistas get to boot. Let's not even get into the politics of unions when it comes to people. I've known guys getting benched or railroaded over petty bunk with senior unionistas whom use their union politics to screw them irregardless of job quality and production being superior to the thugs.
I like some german cars , but when they do break down it's very expensive !.
Japanese cars , are more cost friendly for the most part on OEM parts.
American cars , I am not a real fan them as I grew up contantly fixing them in ways that rarely gave their japanese counterparts hiccups. The 1970's an 80's saw the fall of american auto quality - on all fronts. Ford so far is the only auto maker to get out of that for the most part. When I go for my next truck it will be another Ranger - good motors and good mileage , and cheaper than a toyota.
The problem is bigger than the management , and for sure not all union. But when the management now needs to restructure and the unioinistas refuse to even consider cutting their pork...only corrupt government can and will likely save them.

[Macs.]

A sign that you can't just blame the people and the bad economy for fewer car sales:


BMW M GmbH reports sales up by more than 50%

While other car companies around the world are reporting dire trading conditions BMW M GmbH is reporting sales of 22,340 vehicles worldwide as of November 2008. Whilst the quoted sales volume may not grab your attention, the fact this is 50% greater than last year’s result of 14,092 cars probably will.

BMW cites the new BMW M3 as being a major contributor to this success, which of course is now available in three versions (saloon, coupe and cabriolet) and sold almost twice as well as its E46 predecessor within the same period.

“The fact that our dealers were able to supply significantly more vehicles than the average of the last nine months even in such dramatic times for the world economy demonstrates the fascination and attraction which BMW M automobiles exercise on our customers,” said Ludwig Willisch, President of BMW M GmbH. http://www.drivers-republic.com/first_look/news/details.cfm?articleid=fc7a1d481c9d4a47b0753d9c8a68c52b


VW’s Audi November Sales Gain Even as Recession Bites

Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Audi AG, Volkswagen AG (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=VOW%3AGY)’s luxury-car brand, said deliveries rose 0.4 percent last month because of new models, defying a global recession and a slump in auto markets.

Sales increased to 75,950 cars in November from 75,635 a year earlier, the Ingolstadt, Germany-based carmaker said today in a statement. German sales increased 0.4 percent to 22,178, raising Audi’s market share to a record 9.5 percent.

“Audi continues to hold its market ground very well because of its young and attractive models,” Peter Schwarzenbauer (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Peter+Schwarzenbauer&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), head of sales, said in the statement.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=ahqB.Jkqau4k&refer=germany


Audi Sales Satisfaction Growth Outpaces Industry, J.D. Power Notes

Audi posts largest ranking gain, moving up six spots from 2007 to 2008 - Audi shows consistent improvement since 2005, gaining over 30 points in 3 years - Audi invested $1 billion to enhance customer experience http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Audi-Sales-Satisfaction-Growth-Outpaces/story.aspx?guid={37F2F6A1-1E81-4E86-9422-44F3476D4462}

[firemedic]

Thats is correct. I am an IAFF Firefighter,and if not for Public Safty Unions we would still be dealing with chinese overtime,24/24 shifts,and a whole host of work rules that make it difficult to do the job and have a family life.That being said the Union knows the reality of City budgets and 54 hour work weeks, and part time day off gigs are normal.
I'm also IAFF local 1492 and I'll go on record and say that our union reps are a bunch of $h!t bags, taking our dues and going to the bahamas on "buisness" and failing to even provide us basic items like spare turnout gear, much less stand up to the county commission on issues like pension, colas, and what not. All unions are not good unions. Our dept. is losing people to neighboring depts and I am right behind them. It doesn't take a union to make your job successful, it takes a motivated worker and ethical employer. Way too many unions use the good old boy system to cover dirtbags who need to be fired so someone else can do a better job!.

[firemedic]

To post something positive.
This is also a GM:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/opel_insignia_1.jpg
Car of the Year 2009 - outperformed Toyotas and VWs.
Produced in Europes most productive plant
Isn't that a Saab, partially owned by GM?

[Macs.]

It's a Opel/Vauxhall Insignia.

[CMNot]

It's a Opel/Vauxhall Insignia.

...and there in lies the problem.

[Michigun]

http://www.mixplay.tv/imagenes/video/materiales/ing_53204_grande.jpg cts v 2009

outperformes anything in its class

[Bulletproof]

I drive a German made Passat Wagon with 6 Cylinders; Detroit makes nothing like it. I have dual clutches for Christ's sake.

Yeah and when the electronic **** up, it's a pain in the ass to replace because all the wires are black so you don't know which one do what. Independent mechanics really like that. Some of them refuse to repair any model from Volk.

[Mackie]

http://www.mixplay.tv/imagenes/video/materiales/ing_53204_grande.jpg cts v 2009

outperformes anything in its class

How much will GM sell? 20 a month?
Especially these cars are difficult to sell.
GM strategy at it's best. :roll:

http://p3.focus.de/img/gen/G/X/HBGXAf2ayQn_Pxgen_r_350xA.gif
In German but graphic says all. profit turnover ratio 2005.

[CPL Trevoga]

Including firefighters, police and public works?

The only reason why we attract good people to these jobs are Union wages, benefits and security. Most taxpayers would rather pay for longevity than deal with a high turnover.

As I said before, in private industries, the game is profits, screwing as many people as possible, so unions needed. Government is not business, profits are not an issue. Overall governments pay more generously, not just because of unions, but for the simple reason the costs are not really an issue to a point.

[Zoomie]

cts v 2009

outperformes anything in its class

Your point being? It's not going to save the Big 3 anymore than the bailout.

[Michigun]

Point being you guys whine to much you either say its a crap American car or it wont save the big 3. Let me post something about the auto industry now so you can go back to crying about how bad American cars are.

[Zoomie]

Point being you guys whine to much you either say its a crap American car or it wont save the big 3. Let me post something about the auto industry now so you can go back to crying about how bad American cars are.
Please, you have yet to contribute a single thing to this thread. Would you be able to go a single post without bashing one person or generalizing people on these forums?

[Laworkerbee]

Yeah and when the electronic **** up, it's a pain in the ass to replace because all the wires are black so you don't know which one do what. Independent mechanics really like that. Some of them refuse to repair any model from Volk.

True that, I had to call someone out to replace my battery, I opened the hood and didn't recognize a damned thing :roll:

[Jobu]

True that, I had to call someone out to replace my battery, I opened the hood and didn't recognize a damned thing :roll:


And a good thing you did! You may have broken a fingernail.

;)

[Laworkerbee]

Or get my manicured hands dirty :|

[Jobu]

Unless you're talking about serious re-wiring, there's nothing difficult about working on your VW.

Changing plugs, ignition wires, coil pack, batteries, and all the other routine stuff is is as easy as doing it on any other car.

[Laworkerbee]

Dude, the battery was hidden under the windshield wipers basically, had to pull off a seal and a whole bunch of crap to get under there.

Remember when batteries were easily accessible?

[gaijinsamurai]

In my vanagon, the battery is located under the front passenger seat. Pain in the ass.

[Clearday-TRForce]

To post something positive.
This is also a GM:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/opel_insignia_1.jpg
Car of the Year 2009 - outperformed Toyotas and VWs.
Produced in Europes most productive plant

this is the real positive;

Audi A5
http://www.arabam.com/images/haber/S5xx800.jpg

[LineDoggie]

Ahh, Beautiful, UAW has their own gold plated Golf Course:

http://www.michigangolfmagazine.com/reviews/black-lake.html

And its a money pit to Boot:

http://theunionnews.blogspot.com/2008/09/uaw-squanders-dues-on-golf-resort.html

Cost 23$ Mill and Loses 2.7$ mill per year....