Can Pakistan LeT go?

[Adux]

http://www.thesundayindian.com/21122008 ... 3&pageno=1 (http://www.thesundayindian.com/21122008/storyd.asp?sid=6283&pageno=1)


Can Pakistan LeT go?

Will Pakistan's Military and Intelligence establishments play ball? Or are they just biding time to keep the United stateS in good humour? shahid husain reports from inside pakistan

It was only after the intense pressure from India and the United States started to hurt that Pakistan’s security forces finally swooped down on the bases of the terrorist outfit Lashkar-e-Taiyyaba (LeT) and arrested Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi.

Lakhvi – the alleged mastermind of the Mumbai attacks that killed 188 people and injured 327 – is among the 15 LeT operatives who were detained in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK) and is said to be the outfit’s “operation commander”. The Pakistani operation came after Lakhvi was identified as the Mumbai attack mastermind by the sole terrorist whom the Indian security forces were able to catch alive in India’s traumatised financial capital.

The LeT – banned by the Pakistan government in 2002 – has since re-surfaced under a new name, Jamaat-ud-Dawa, and is led by Hafiz Saeed. While it has a sizeable presence throughout Pakistan, in PoK it is hyperactive. Small wonder, then, that the outfit, that claims to be involved in charitable works, was among the first to reach the victims of the 2005 earthquake in which over 79,000 people in PoK and the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) were killed. But senior surgeons told TSI that the quacks hired by the Jamaat-ud-Dawa botched up the entire operation, forcing scores of the quake’s injured survivors to undergo amputation. These quacks did not even care to disinfect the wounds before bandaging them.

The Pakistan authorities have also restricted the movements of Maulana Masood Azhar, chief of the outlawed Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), by confining him to his multi-storey home in the Model Town area of Bahawalpur in Punjab. The adviser to Interior Minister Rehman Malik said in Islamabad that India had been insistent that Pakistan extradite Maulana Masood Azhar, Dawood Ibrahim and Tiger Memon. All three notorious figures are believed to have enjoyed the patronage of Pakistani intelligence agencies in the past, and are allegedly involved in exporting terror to India and fomenting sectarian violence in Pakistan.

The US government has reacted positively to these arrests, with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice reportedly happy that, despite Pakistan’s traditional closeness to the LeT, it was now committed to fighting it. Rice charged the group with being involved in not just the Mumbai carnage, but also of moving in “the same circles” as al-Qaeda. Yet at the same time, she seemed to be quite satisfied with the role the Pakistan government had played in the war on terror. “Pakistan is a different place now, with a civilian government and an army leadership working in concert to crush extremism in Pakistan,” she has been quoted as saying.

What Rice did not say, however, but which is known generally, is that the terror raging today is the result of decades of brainwashing of Pakistani youth through both formal and informal indoctrination. It is this deadly mix of classical religious education and militancy that is widely believed to have led to the spawning of worldwide jehad.

But this observation must be qualified. Madrassas are not the only institutions breeding hate and intolerance. The textbooks of the government-run schools do much more than madrassas to spread jehad and lure students by holding out to them the promise of shahadat (martyrdom), according to `The Subtle Subversion – The State of Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan', a research study published in 2004 by the Sustainable Development Policy Institute, an independent Islamabad thinktank. The study adds, "Over the years, it became apparent that it was in the interest of both the military and the theocracy to promote militarism in society. This confluence of interests now gets reflected in the educational material."

This is precisely why, despite the efforts of both Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Pervaiz Kayani, who is said to be both secular and a thoroughly professional soldier, and President Asif Ali Zardari (himself a victim of terrorism) to eradicate terrorism, it will be a long time before Pakistan’s general populace, and not just the jehadi elements in the establishment, are re-educated.

Also make a note of this: in its 61 years of existence, Pakistan has been governed through direct military rule for fully 34 years; and all the elected governments have failed miserably to assert themselves. Remember how the populist government of the late Zulfikar Ali Bhutto buckled down under pressure from the right-wing Pakistan National Alliance-led movement of 1977 to appease the mullahs? And declared the minority Ahmedi community to be non-Muslims? It is a measure of the ironies contained in the politics of appeasement that it were these very mullahs who collaborated with military dictator General Ziaul Haq – whose July 1977 coup sent Bhutto to the gallows. And who, thus, enabled jehadi elements to hold Pakistan’s liberal sections hostage.

2

Today, religious extremism and intolerance in Pakistan are not confined to madrassa students. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, and the subsequent American bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq, even some of the most highly educated people in Pakistan have come to be influenced by the Taliban and the al-Qaeda. A major American casualty was The Wall Street Journal’s Daniel Pearl, who was trapped in Karachi on January 23, 2002 and brutally murdered by a highly educated al-Qaeda operative. And Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a key member of the Hamburg cell that was behind 9/11, was eventually arrested in Karachi. Psychiatrists say aggression could be a response to frustration; which, if rewarded by society at large, gets reinforced and gains acceptance. This is precisely what is being witnessed today throughout Pakistan, whose government has patronised ethnicity, sectarianism and jehadis down the years. But as we have seen, its strategy of using madrassa students for furthering its geopolitical interests in Afghanistan backfired badly; so that today, try as it might, the state finds itself at a loss every time it tries to rein in the Taliban and other jehadi forces in Pakistan's Federally Administrated Tribal Areas (FATA), as also other parts of it. It cannot have been otherwise considering how thoroughly brainwashed these lethally armed operatives are.

It is no surprise, therefore, that the forward-looking among Pakistan’s intelligentsia want sterner action against the LeT, the JeM and other jehadi outfits. “I think the action against the LeT is under outside pressure, mainly from India and the United States, because now India has provided inconvertible proof of the LeT’s involvement in the Mumbai carnage,” said Dr AH Nayyar, a leading educationist and Fellow of the Islamabad-based Sustainable Development Policy Institute. But he was not certain that the Pakistani establishment was as yet ready to regard the LeT as a threat to Pakistan as well. “The establishment had proceeded against the LeT and the JeM some years ago – then too under outside pressure, and without being convinced that these two entities could harm Pakistan as well. This is why both outfits were able to resume their activities soon after. So till these two begin to be perceived as threats within as well, neither of the two will cease its activities,” Dr Nayyar explained. Dr Nayyar seemed equally pained by the suspension of the peace talks between India and Pakistan, but hoped that it was a temporary phenomenon and that the two neighbours would not fall into the terrorists’ trap.

Dr Syed Jaffer Ahmed, Director, Pakistan Study Centre and a leading political scientist, said: “Being unaware of the exact nature of the crackdown, it is difficult for me to say whether or not it is satisfactory. But what we do know is that in his statement President Zardari made it clear that if non-state elements were involved in the Mumbai attacks stern action would be taken against them.”

But a senior Intelligence officer holds a diametrically opposite view. “There are more than 100 terrorist organisations in India, and only a few of them are Muslim. Since they (India) cannot blame themselves, they are blaming Pakistan. In the Samjhauta Express case too there was an Indian army officer involved. So whether by design or by default, India continues to be interested in painting Pakistan as a rogue state.” Just as well that he was not part of the peace process!

[AL-Khalid]

Not india only US.

[D4ark]

http://www.thesundayindian.com/21122008 ... 3&pageno=1 (http://www.thesundayindian.com/21122008/storyd.asp?sid=6283&pageno=1)


Can Pakistan LeT go?
^ That ends it stupid article blaming a Charity that runs OVER 100 schools and recieved an award from the UN for their help during the Blach earthquake a terrorist organization

[Beowulf]

^ That ends it stupid article blaming a Charity that runs OVER 100 schools and recieved an award from the UN for their help during the Blach earthquake a terrorist organization

Which "charity" are you referring to? LeT? Jamaat-ut-Dawa?

[D4ark]

^ Jamaat Ud Dawa Do you think im retarded to call LeT a charity?

[sujithkochi]

how come only u think Jamaat Ud Dawa is a real charity organisation?

[sujithkochi]

btw beowulf - off topic - where u not supposed to go on a roadtrip?

[Beowulf]

^ Jamaat Ud Dawa Do you think im retarded to call LeT a charity?

...maybe.


Acting tough on India's demands, the United Nations Security Council on Thursday imposed sanctions on Pakistan-based terror outfit Jamaat-ud-Dawah, the front organisation of banned Lashkar-e-Tayiba and also declared as terrorists its four top leaders, including JuD chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed and suspected Mumbai attack mastermind Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi.

Besides Sayeed and Lakhvi, two other top leaders of the LeT, Haji Muhammad Ashraf and Zaki-ur-Bahaziq, both financiers of the JuD, have also been declared as terrorists by the UNSC.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/UN_bans_terror_outfit_Jamaat-ud-Dawa/rssarticleshow/3821500.cms

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2008/sc9527.doc.htm

[Beowulf]

btw beowulf - off topic - where u not supposed to go on a roadtrip?

...leaving soon. Trying to buy a rocker or crossbones for the trip.

But CA is retarded about vehicle registration. I really really really hate this state. Really.

[sujithkochi]

haha. good luck once again & dont forget the upates

[The Dane]

Take out Pakistans nuclear capability and talk to them then ...

[The Dane]

Report: India readied to attack Pakistan

WASHINGTON, Dec. 15 (UPI) -- India's air force was preparing for a likely strike against Pakistan following the Mumbai terror attacks, Pentagon sources told CNN.


The report quoted three Pentagon officials as individually confirming the Untited States has information about Indian air force personnel preparing for a possible mission against Pakistan.

One official told CNN the Indian air force "went on alert" after the Nov. 26 attacks in India's financial capital. The attacks ended after three days, leaving at least 170 dead, including foreigners.

India, which captured one of the 10 terror suspects alive, says the suspect has said all the attackers were Pakistani nationals and that the massacre was planned by the Laskhar-e-Toiba (http://www.upi.com/topic/Lashkar-e-Taiba/) militant group in Pakistan.

CNN reported its sources offered few details about the Indian preparations, but added it is the first public indication the two nuclear weapons powers were closer to a conflict in the days after the attacks.

One official told CNN India's preliminary preparations may have allowed it to speedily strike suspected terrorist training camps and targets inside Pakistan. But during this time, U.S. officials were pleading with India to exercise restraint, the report said.
CNN said a spokesman for the Indian air force declined comment on the report.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/15/Report_India_readied_to_attack_Pakistan/UPI-85301229342702/

[D4ark]

Take out Pakistans nuclear capability and talk to them then ...
Like we r gonna give up our only equalizer in military strength yeah right nice joke

[Adux]

Pakistan is heading for an implosion, Why will India attack them and give them a reason to unite?

[xav]

Wow there's a lot of hot air and heat in this thread. WHat's up with the HUGE AND ALL CAPS fonts?

[mwe]

Pakistan is heading for an implosion, Why will India attack them and give them a reason to unite?

India would not attack them anyways.

Like a kid in high school pretending they would fight if the teachers stopped breaking them up. A lot of empty banter.

[3rdMillhouse]

I'm surprised that terrorist groups still haven't been to get a hold of Pakistan's nukes, given that their governmental structure is completely infiltrated by them.

[AL-Khalid]

Again cheap indian propaganda

[Adux]

India would not attack them anyways.

Like a kid in high school pretending they would fight if the teachers stopped breaking them up. A lot of empty banter.

i would suggest you see the history of wars and battles fought by these to neighbours. wether it is siachin 84, kargil 99(after nukes), bangladesh 71, response op.gilbertar in 65, rescue of jammu and kashmir maharaja in 47. what has the pakistani won till now?
India will strike, and strike it will as history has shown us when it is the most apt time to do it.
It would be stupid on our part to assume that India is a coward or something.


some sane pakistani voices, i would suggest the watchers to read this to understand the people we can talk with on the other side, the rest 99% are crazy conspiracy nuts






My friend Saad, I'm surprised that you are gullible enough to believe that!

World affairs are not black and white. They are grey. What you see is not always what you get. The situation is not as simple as you make it sound. Pakistanis are not the only people killing Pakistanis in Pakistan. India and the CIA are actively supporting insurgencies in Balochistan and NWFP. India and the CIA are backing Baitullah Mehsud from Afghanistan. The incident where the CIA refused to take out Meshud when his exact whereabouts had been revealed to them by the Pakistani intelligence is on record (http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16421 (http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16421)) The following is a good account of Mehsud: http://www.yousufnazar.com/?p=608 (http://www.yousufnazar.com/?p=608). The so-called 'Taliban' who are waging war against the Pakistan Army are mostly mercenary Afghans backed by India and the CIA.

Why was there peace in the tribal areas and in the rest of Pakistan before 9/11 when the Taliban were in control of Afghanistan and there were no Pakistani troops to guard the Western border? Why did all the terrorism in Pakistan (including suicide bombings unheard of in Pakistan) start after the Americans and the Indians entered the Afghan theatre? Just think about it. The Taliban are not the enemy of Pakistan. The enemy is India, the US and the puppet Afghan government who are waging war on Pakistan through mercenaries who call themselves Taliban in a bid to mislead the world.

Also, in a bid to show the West that the Talibans are on the brink of taking over control of Pakistan, both Musharraf and the PPP had the habit of blaming every bombing in Pakistan on suicide bombers when many bombs were planted devices. I've been told by a Punjab Police officer that the bombing that killed the policemen on GPO Chowk on 10 January 2008 was a planted device whereas they were told by the authorities to say that it was a suicide bombing. We have enemies within. Both India and the CIA are actively engaged in destablizing Pakistan. India is already waging a proxy war against Pakistan. Wake up and see the reality. Pakistan is already at war - we are employing fighter jets, gunship helicopters, tanks, artillery in the NWFP - these are weapons of war, not of local law enforcement.

I was in Peshawar a month ago and a Pak military officer told me that they captured Taliban-types who were engaging the Pak Army in Bajaur. Around 10-11 men with long beards who looked liked Taliban were strip searched and it transpired that they were not circumsized. When interrogated, they turned out to be undercover Indian military and intelligence personnel dressed up as Taliban. The matter was hushed up by the Pakistani authorities, though the men remain under detention. Why is Pakistan not exposing Indian involvement in terrorist activities in Pakistan? Because we have traitors at the helm of affairs. Who do you think took out the Indian military attache in Kabul and why? When the political leadership fails to do its duty, then the intelligence agencies step in to do things in a language that the enemy understands.

And you think that elements from Pakistan were involved in the Mumbai attacks? Now who's saying the "bacchon wali baat"? You seem to have taken the bait of the Indian propoganda machine - hook, line and sinker.
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RMS,

My friend, as much as I respect you, I think its you who has taken the conspiracy theory hook, line and sinker. You essentially returned to the safety of the oft-repeated argument that everyone is out there to undermine us.

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The so-called 'Taliban' who are waging war against the Pakistan Army are mostly mercenary Afghans backed by India and the CIA. http://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
Not once has Pakistan Army paraded folks that have been captured as outsiders. While one can deny this, almost 99% are local tribals. Every single suicide bomber has been traced back to the North West of Pakistan. Many may not say here, however there is a strong sentiment among the Pashtuns of Pakistan that this war is being waged against them at the behest of the US. This is the reason that Pashtuns in the tribal areas are taking on the Army. Yes they may get help from outside (their Pashtun brothers in Afghanistan have access to vast amounts of military hardware and resources thanks to the poppy cultivation - See here: http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...865730,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1865730,00.html)) and there may even be support coming from Indians and the Americans to put pressure on Pakistan, however neither you, nor anyone else here can claim that our insurgencies in FATA and BLA only thrive on the basis of support they receive from outside.

Fact is that our mess is mostly home-grown idelogical, tribal and financial motivation that drives these folks to pick up arms against the state of Pakistan and as I mentioned, our enemies are going to take advantage of this. In the Daily Dawn, Kamran Shaffi wrote an article saying that we always do what we must only after massive arm twisting and pressure. Such is the case with us going after the Mehsuds in the tribal areas and trying to rein in the myriad of militant groups running around. We should be doing this with or without outside pressure because by the time the outside pressure applies on us, things have already gotten out of hand domestically.
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India is already waging a proxy war against Pakistan. Wake up and see the reality. Pakistan is already at war - we are employing fighter jets, gunship helicopters, tanks, artillery in the NWFP - these are weapons of war, not of local law enforcement. http://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
Not sure if you were around in the 60s and 70s during the first insurgency in Dir Bajaur in 60-62. We used fighter jets, artillery back then too. That is a requirement owing to the terrain and not because some massive conventional adversary faces us. The same goes for the operations in Balochistan in the 70s. People nowadays are taken aback by the use of aircraft and tanks just because either they do not know how these campaigns are fought or they have no recollection of the past. India may be waging a proxy war, but if our idea of fighting back the proxy war is by allowing certain groups to operate within Pakistan who think its alright to go and kill innocent people outside of Pakistan then I don't know about you, but I for sure can see the writing on the wall is...and it is that Pakistan stands to lose. The world public opinion is against Pakistan and what is being allowed to happen inside of Pakistan. In all of this mess, not one Muslim country is willing to stand by Pakistan and support us. So lets think about what all of this is doing to Pakistan.

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I was in Peshawar a month ago and a Pak military officer told me that they captured Taliban-types who were engaging the Pak Army in Bajaur. Around 10-11 men with long beards who looked liked Taliban were strip searched and it transpired that they were not circumsized. When interrogated, they turned out to be undercover Indian military and intelligence personnel dressed up as Taliban. The matter was hushed up by the Pakistani authorities, though the men remain under detention. http://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
Don't know about you but if I had 10 uncircumcised *******s in my custody then I would have milked this opportunity to the hilt. If Indians can milk all sort of half-ass information from a single captured gunman, which genius on the Pakistan side decide to hush this up? Whose interest does the hushing up serve and whose interests does it hurt?

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And you think that elements from Pakistan were involved in the Mumbai attacks? Now who's saying the "bacchon wali baat"? You seem to have taken the bait of the Indian propoganda machine - hook, line and sinker http://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
I already made my point about what my issue with this whole thing is. We have given up the right to be able to deny these accusations ourselves simply because of our own incompetence. Pakistan is obviously not to be blamed for all of it. We are limited in terms of our resources to put all of these entities out of commission, however until that happens, Pakistan will keep on getting blamed.

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Why was there peace in the tribal areas and in the rest of Pakistan before 9/11 when the Taliban were in control of Afghanistan and there were no Pakistani troops to guard the Western border? Why did all the terrorism in Pakistan (including suicide bombings unheard of in Pakistan) start after the Americans and the Indians entered the Afghan theatre? Just think about it. The Taliban are not the enemy of Pakistan. The enemy is India, the US and the puppet Afghan government who are waging war on Pakistan through mercenaries who call themselves Taliban in a bid to mislead the world. http://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www.pakdef.info/forum/images/misc/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif
Before 9/11, we did not take on the Taliban and the folks in FATA. These operations started in 2002 and ever since then, we have been on the receiving end of the Pashtun fury.
Taliban were a friend of Pakistan but post 9/11 we helped to undermine them and are now being subjected to payback thanks to the poppy money and suicide bombers. You keep on making the point about India and the US...well who are the tools at the hands of these countries? Its our own people who feel that the state of Pakistan is against them. Just like in 1971, we can sit here and complain about the Indians, but we need to understand the Indian nature, they will take advantage whenever and wherever possible to the detriment of Pakistan, so why give them a chance


It is not Pakistani govt's fault. Back in 2002, when Pakistan was not in a mega financial crisis, had a COAS as its president, and yet had to declare groups like LeT terrorist under Indian/international pressure. Right now things are a lot worse for Pakistan in terms of finance/international standing, and there is no way on earth that Pakistan can afford a war with India at this stage. Im not saying that India could, but she is in a much better position than Pakistan both in terms of finance/international support.

So whose fault it is that things have come to this? The answer is simple. Previous civilian/military regimes who have been unable to bring Pakistan out of this whole mess and formulate good internal/foreign policies based on Pakistani interests rather than their personal wishes or looking at things merely through US/Ind/relegious prism. Of course some leaders have been better than others, but for past several decades no one has had the courage to face the extremist elemenst within Pakistan, and instead they have courted such people to one extent or the other. Its these mistakes that have come back to haunt Pakistan, and Pakistan is being increasingly linked to international terrorism. And, no its not an international conspiracy (though some powerful elements might want things to go this way) but a number of facts speak for themselves.

There is only one solution to this whole problem. Pak mil/civ has to make a total U-turn...the longer they leave it the worse it would become. Ask/convince Brits/US to provide security guarantees vis-a-vis India, and then crackdown on the militant with the full might. With the right moves, I think the international powers would look at Pakistan's case favourably, as long as Pakistan does not ask them to treat herself favourably, i.e. may be the extension of such a guarantee to India vis-a-vis Pakistan...Im not suggesting an alliance but merely some guarantees. Im sure a crackdown would divide the population right through the middle, but Pakistan has made mistakes and no doubt is paying and will pay more for them.

must read


Well today UN has declared JuD as terror support group. Every other person in Pakistan knows that it is same old shameful LeT with just name change. On this Eid I counted about 100 'Qurbani Ki Khall/hides , donate to JuD' banners in my own home town .

Obviously we have a very grave situation here as a lot of Pakistanis are not following the way Quaid-e-Azam did jihad to secure a home land for Muslims of South Asia. They do not believe in a State envisioned by our founding fathers where Religion would not be used as tool to discriminate minorities as majority Hindus were using it before pre-partition India. In fact these so called Jihadis are followers of people and parties who openly opposed Pakistan and labeled Quaid-e-Azam as non-believer.

Unless we contain and eliminate these people, India /US /Israel and any other country in world will try to take advantage of situation at expense of interests of State of Pakistan.

A while back Pakistani intelligence officials arrested some UAE nationals involved in Balochistan insurgency and suspected their support due to Gwader port development.
We can not label Dubai as Anti Pakistan, but rather eliminate insurgents in Balochistan and hope there would be no local support to any one who is planning against interests of state of Pakistan

[Adux]

India will dare not attack Pakistan if only the PPP government stops behaving like cowards. Even the body language of our government shows fear. Zardari said to CNN: "India should not punish us". That shows how scared the PPP government is. At least they should act brave.

The only thing that is holding back the Indians is their own cowardice. I've never seen a country that is so scared to fight as the Indians are. It is best to strike when the iron is hot. India missed that chance. The more they wait, the more holes appear in the Indian version of events.

In my opinion, the Mumbai attacks have been orchestrated by the CIA (with the cooperation of Hindu extremist groups like the VHP and RSS) to get the Indians to send troops into Afghanistan. NATO wants out and no one else is willing to go into Afghanistan. The US is losing the war in Afghanistan. They want India to commit troops to Afghanistan and by taking the terror into India, they are hoping to achieve this. This also works into the US vision to see India as its local policeman in the region.

One thing that this whole sordid affair has achieved is to awaken many Pakistanis to the fact that war with India is always around the corner and we cannot ignore our defence. In fact, in my opinion, another major war with India is inevitable and India will be the one to impose such a war on Pakistan
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Yaar RMS,

Lets keep the jingoism out and clear our minds about the current crises. Why would India be scared? What has stopped them in the past from military adventurism in 1971, Siachen and even in 1965 when they responded to the infiltration in Kashmir? Lets not forget the history. Indians have the ability and they have shown the intent to attack and then carried out the attacks when pushed. So lets not be carried away with this bacchon wali baat "never seen a country so scared to fight a war" etc. That is what our genius policy planners were thinking when Indians launched a counter attack in 1965.

Why would they wage a war? Only if they see something worthwhile coming out of it. They waged a war in 1971 and achieved their goals. What can you say about the times when we have waged a war out of bravado? Hum nay kiya jeeta hai ab tak??
What is holding them back is obviously the unknown Pakistani response and also the fact that there is very little that can be gained from a strike aside from assuaging the public anger in India. Nothing of military significance can be had by launching strikes. Full fledge war is an option for neither country. It screws up Pakistan extremely badly and messes up India's strategic plans to go big. A little strike here and there in AK and an unknown Pakistani response is too big a complication to just start a military conflagration.

As to your last paragraph, why give anyone the chance to wage war against Pakistan? Afterall we have some responsibility in this whole affair. Retards (if proven and verified) are going from Pakistan into a neighboring country and killing innocent people. Just turn the picture around and think about what would our reaction be if some nuts from the BLA came into Karachi and went on a similar rampage killing men, women at random. What would we be thinking? You give your enemies a chance, then they will exploit it. What did we do in EP? We knew that EPs could be exploited by the Indians, so instead of giving them the right to rule Pakistan, we decided to pull the gun on them. Over here and now, these groups can take on the Army at will. There is no stopping them. Taliban and their sympathizers run around taking on the Army and running their own parallel foreign policy (as evinced by the events in Mumbai). Which country in the world (including any other Muslim country) allows such bakwas??

Lets think about our own responsibility here folks. I am not worried about an Indian attack as Pakistan can give as good as it takes it (I have no doubt about this and the Indians know it too). However this internal problem of crackpots running around executing their own domestic and foreign policy will come back to bite us really badly. Mark my words. In the heat of the moment, India and the rest are a good bogey to dump our problems on, however last I checked, the biggest killers of Pakistanis (more civilians have died during the last two years than the entire 1965 war put together) are nutty Pakistanis.




Re: Mumbai Attack



I am pretty amazed at the overall "Indians are coward" analysis being put forth here by a lot of folks. They have fought hard when they have had to. Just like us. Lets not fall for this non-objective and populist analysis that they are not waging a war because they are scared. They have proven otherwise in the past. Also as responsible and mature observers of geopolitics, Pakistanis should not be challenging the Indians to up the ante. Pakistan has a lot to lose from it too. While we can blame the Afghan war for our continuing misery at the hands of the militants, its about time that we realize that as part of a the comity of nations, we cannot allow people to take us to the brink of a war with a neighbor.







hopefully the leadership of pakistan think like this

[gayarabianman]

...leaving soon. Trying to buy a rocker or crossbones for the trip.

But CA is retarded about vehicle registration. I really really really hate this state. Really.
Few years mate, i feel sorry for you, going to be pathetic soon.

[gayarabianman]

Pakistan is heading for an implosion, Why will India attack them and give them a reason to unite?
Exacley, i bet all this happens a day or 2 before obamarama is officially elected president.
Crisis straight away there.

[Adux]

if pakistan continues this path, 1 decade or more pakistan will cease to exist in its present form.
CIA predicted the break up of pakistan in 2015, 4 years ago.

[ggk]

if pakistan continues this path, 1 decade or more pakistan will cease to exist in its present form.
CIA predicted the break up of pakistan in 2015, 4 years ago.

interesting, source please. this would be a good reading. Thanks in advance

[Adux]

ggk,

I would suggest you do some reading on Ralph Peters, creation of Pakistan along with PoK to stop India from bodering Afghanistan. Great Game in the 20th century is a good read too.



Already in 2005, a report by the US National Intelligence Council and the CIA forecast a "Yugoslav-like fate" for Pakistan "in a decade with the country riven by civil war, bloodshed and inter-provincial rivalries, as seen recently in Balochistan." (Energy Compass, 2 March 2005). According to the NIC-CIA, Pakistan is slated to become a "failed state" by 2015, "as it would be affected by civil war, complete Talibanisation and struggle for control of its nuclear weapons". (Quoted by former Pakistan High Commissioner to UK, Wajid Shamsul Hasan, Times of India, 13 February 2005):

"Nascent democratic reforms will produce little change in the face of opposition from an entrenched political elite and radical Islamic parties. In a climate of continuing domestic turmoil, the Central government's control probably will be reduced to the Punjabi heartland and the economic hub of Karachi," the former diplomat quoted the NIC-CIA report as saying.
Expressing apprehension, Hasan asked, "are our military rulers working on a similar agenda or something that has been laid out for them in the various assessment reports over the years by the National Intelligence Council in joint collaboration with CIA?" (Ibid)
Continuity, characterized by the dominant role of the Pakistani military and intelligence has been scrapped in favor of political breakup and balkanization.

According to the NIC-CIA scenario, which Washington intends to carry out: "Pakistan will not recover easily from decades of political and economic mismanagement, divisive policies, lawlessness, corruption and ethnic friction," (Ibid) .
The US course consists

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7705

[ggk]

Ralph Peters peters predict a lot of things, i read all of his books especialy the one regarding the red army. he also a fiction writer you know. the one you sugested are indeed a good read

[Sana Saudagar]

interesting, source please. this would be a good reading. Thanks in advance


Is Pakistan a failed state?
By Ameer Bhutto

June 3, 2006

In a recent assessment of the US magazine ‘Foreign Policy’, Pakistan occupies the ninth position in the list of failed states, having leapfrogged 25 places from the 34th slot on the previous list.

A joint report issued by the US National Intelligence Council and the CIA, titled “Global Futures Assessment Report”, quoted by former Pakistan High Commissioner to the United Kingdom, Mr Wajid Shamsul Hasan in ‘South Asia Tribune’, lends credence to this assessment.

The report states that “by year 2015 Pakistan would be a failed state, ripe with civil war, bloodshed, inter-provincial rivalries and a struggle for control of its nuclear weapons and complete Talibanisation.

Pakistan will not recover easily from decades of political and economic mismanagement, divisive policies, lawlessness, corruption and ethnic friction.” Other reports emanating from the West question whether Pakistan can survive beyond the next ten years. Is the future really so bleak for Pakistan?

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/encounter/20060603/encounter2.htm

[mwe]

i would suggest you see the history of wars and battles fought by these to neighbours. wether it is siachin 84, kargil 99(after nukes), bangladesh 71, response op.gilbertar in 65, rescue of jammu and kashmir maharaja in 47. what has the pakistani won till now?
India will strike, and strike it will as history has shown us when it is the most apt time to do it.
It would be stupid on our part to assume that India is a coward or something.

must read

India will banter a bit and use "Western pressure" as a fig leaf to not fight, which is fine but the internet banter is lame. If anything Zardani "stalemating" India in an indecisive war would do wonders for him, show he could defend Pakistan, then both sides then can take out their yards sticks and beat their chests about how amazing they are.

[Adux]

mwe,

Pakistan's only way to defend against India is through Nuclear weapons there is no stale mating or anything of that sort, heck it cant even pay its own oil bills now, imagine at a war time. Pakistan is broke, and in shambles; Pakistan is the one who is sabre rattling with all the talk of nuclear weapons, on a conventional front, Pakistan is already lost.
Is India scared about nuclear weapons, ofcourse yes. Unlike some nation we are not sucidal, we look at cost-benefit ratio and disproptionate use of force. India's history against pakistan says opposite of what you say.
It doesnt make sense to India to wage war, when Pakistan is already doing that on itself. If I were the Prime Minister of India, I would be funding all regional sepratist movements in Pakistan.

[ggk]

mwe,

Pakistan's only way to defend against India is through Nuclear weapons there is no stale mating or anything of that sort, heck it cant even pay its own oil bills now, imagine at a war time. Pakistan is broke, and in shambles; Pakistan is the one who is sabre rattling with all the talk of nuclear weapons, on a conventional front, Pakistan is already lost.
Is India scared about nuclear weapons, ofcourse yes. Unlike some nation we are not sucidal, we look at cost-benefit ratio and disproptionate use of force. India's history against pakistan says opposite of what you say.
It doesnt make sense to India to wage war, when Pakistan is already doing that on itself. If I were the Prime Minister of India, I would be funding all regional sepratist movements in Pakistan.

you are so full of confidence .... but somehow after seeing the mumbai attack.....just imagine 10 terrorist against how many security services?

[Ghorkhali]

Pakistan is heading for an implosion, Why will India attack them and give them a reason to unite?


ha ha .....
nowadays Baluchistan has gone soft towards Pakistan :)

[Adux]

you are so full of confidence .... but somehow after seeing the mumbai attack.....just imagine 10 terrorist against how many security services?

statistics are for you to see.
Confidence comes from that, is a terrorist strike a barometer on which conventional forces are measured. you are a bit more intelligent than that, stop trying to bait me.