Now or Never!

[Adux]

http://www.outlookindia.com/images/pak_psych_cartoon_20081212.jpg
Rajinder Puri
PAKISTAN
Now Or Never! As Pakistan faces its moment of truth, its people remain in a state of denial. This could prove fatal. http://www.outlookindia.com/images/space.gifhttp://www.outlookindia.com/images/space.gifRajinder Puri (http://www.outlookindia.com/author.asp?name=Rajinder+Puri)http://www.outlookindia.com/images/space.gif| e-mail (http://javascript<b></b>:mailtosomeone('fullmail.asp?fodname=20081212&fname=rajinderpuri&sid=1');) | one page format (http://javascript<b></b>:printstory2('printchoice.asp?fodname=20081212&fname=rajinderpuri&sid=1');) | feedback: send (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))- read (http://www.outlookindia.com/rantsmag.asp?fodname=20081212&fname=rajinderpuri&sid=1) | As Pakistan faces its moment of truth, its people remain in a state of denial. This could prove fatal. From Musharraf to the man in the street there is refusal to acknowledge the truth. Pakistan’s role as the launching pad for global terrorism is accepted all over the world except inside Pakistan. The evidence of the Pakistani hand in the Mumbai terror is irrefutable. So where do we go from here?

America, Russia and Europe are united in criticizing Pakistan. Sooner rather than later joint international action will likely knock out terror camps inside Pakistan. With that the crisis will not end. It will begin. For Pakistanis the real problem is not terrorism. The real problem is Pakistan. It is an artificial State. It was created by imperialist Britain in pursuit of its global strategic interests. Along with its creation the Kashmir dispute was created. Thereby Britain ensured that India and Pakistan would remain apart. There is more than enough circumstantial evidence to indicate this. Books have been written on the subject.

Because Pakistan was an artificial state, democracy could not survive. Genuine democracy could have torn the nation apart. That is why the Army took control. That is why tension with India was kept alive by the Army to perpetuate its hold. That is why Pakistan to survive was forced into dangerous bargains with big powers. That is why Pakistan became the hub of international terrorism. That is why from being created as an artificial state, Pakistan might now even disappear as a failed state. But after six decades of independence, Pakistan deserves to survive. For survival, Pakistan must act.

Today the Pakistan army is committed to help NATO forces in Afghanistan. But the army has little heart in fighting the war because large sections of it were complicit in creating and sustaining the terror outfits that are being fought. Pakistan’s dilemma is that the civilian government cannot control the army. And the army cannot fight terrorists for fear of splitting its own ranks. If the army splits, which side will its chief General Kayani back? As former head of ISI, as former member of the Special Services Group (SSG) which most likely trains terrorists, and as a member of the Janjua community that has dominated the army since Pakistan’s independence, Kayani is one man who conceivably could take on the terrorists and yet keep the bulk of the army intact.

The question is, will he?


http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081212&fname=rajinderpuri&sid=1

[Adux]

Interesting, I dont subscribe to all his views, but interesting nonthless

[Tokamak]

"The real problem is Pakistan. It is an artificial State. It was created by imperialist Britain in pursuit of its global strategic interests".

You lost me here!.

[The Dane]

... maybe a little later ...

[Adux]

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2111/margulies1ys5.gif (http://imageshack.us/)

[Adux]

"The real problem is Pakistan. It is an artificial State. It was created by imperialist Britain in pursuit of its global strategic interests".

You lost me here!.

Divide and rule.

He is talking about the Great Game, United India-Pakistan would be a place of great geo-strategic importance and power, India is right now shackled beng at the end of the asian continent and not having a path into Central asian regions(energy rich), a very similar vision led the Soviet Union to attack afghanistan,after its succesful completion planned to get through pakistan all the way to arabian sea. which is therefore in 1947 when both Pakistan and India had British Chief of Staff, they made an attack on the Princely state of Jammu & Kashmir(by partition treaty (signed by britan, india and pakistan) the right of th ruler to decide, not the people) therefore cutting India off from Afghan borders.There are lot of info available on the great game at the end of the second world war.


http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7892/bernardlewismapmiddleeauy7.jpg

[Ordie]

It would be prudent upon India's part to provide as much legitimacy and credibility to the civilian led Government of Pakistan. Much of Pakistan's military arsenal, plans and doctrine is focused on India not the Taleban.

If India and Pakistan were to reach an agreement over Kashmir, then more resources can be dedicated towards combating extremists.

[gayarabianman]

All this talk of attacking Pakistan of late.
Once everything goes mental, don't forget they have nukes.
Although i agree that most terrorists are coming from Pakistan, once the governments has been overthrown god help everyone.
Because all this "terrorist camp" targeting that every1s speaking about needs to be done, once it started the Pakistanis will go mental imo.

[Adux]

It would be prudent upon India's part to provide as much legitimacy and credibility to the civilian led Government of Pakistan. Much of Pakistan's military arsenal, plans and doctrine is focused on India not the Taleban.
pakistan is heading for an implosion, indians will stay out of this. I am wondering if they will start equipping the Balochi's.



If India and Pakistan were to reach an agreement over Kashmir, then more resources can be dedicated towards combating extremists

they will not, Northern India has two main water resources, one coming from Kashmir, other from Tibet. India will not give that to Pakistan, and nothing short of that is acceptable to Pakistan. Water given by India through the Indus water treaty is the ONLY water supply for Pakistan.

In the Goa thread, i read about Indian Imperalism in Kashmir. I suggest you gents read about India-Pakistan partition treaty created by the British, how it differentiates from British India lands, British protectorate Princely states and princely states, which further led to the Accession treaty between the King of Jammu and Kashmir & Government of India

[Eventine]

Sounds like water desalination needs a forceful nudge.

[Adux]

Sounds like water desalination needs a forceful nudge.

Yes. but pakistan has wrapped the Kashmir problem in so many coverings, that it is impossible for them to attain any satisfactory outcome to it. It is going to end bad, pakistan in my opinion is going for a implosion.

Longtime Eventine, Hope you are keeping well.

[Ordie]

pakistan is heading for an implosion, indians will stay out of this.


Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

It is to the best interest of Indian and regional security to make sure that Pakistani civilian government gains credibility and legitimacy in the eyes of its people and the global community.

I don't give a damn about water rights in the Kashmir. I do give a damn about both India and Pakistan pointing nuclear weapons at each other because if it.

[Adux]

I dont agree with you on a stable Pakistan is better for India.


Stable Pakistan not in India’s interest (http://sify.com/news/columns/fullstory.php?id=14754284)

....... Many conveniently propose the myth that a stable Pakistan is in India’s favour. This is a false proposition. The truth is that Pakistan is bad news for the Indian Union since 1947–stable or otherwise.

Islamabad has enjoyed brief periods of political stability since the birth of Pakistan. But even during these interludes, it continued to export terrorism, fake currency and narcotics to India. It continued its attempts to change the demography along our borders, and cultivated sleeper cells and armed groups inside our territory to create an uprising at an appropriate time.

Also, it aligned with Beijing and other powers, in a mutually beneficial scheme, to tie-down and ultimately cause a territorial split of the Union.

With Pakistan on the brink of collapse due to massive internal as well as international contradictions, it is matter of time before it ceases to exist.
Multiple benefits will accrue to the Union of India on such demise.

If Indian national interests are defined with clarity and prioritised, the foremost threat to the Union (and for centuries before its birth) has consistently and continuously materialised on the western periphery.

To defend this key threat to the Union, New Delhi should extend its influence through export of both soft and hard power towards Central Asia, from where invasions have been mounted over centuries. The cessation of Pakistan as a state facilitates furtherance of this pivotal national objective.

The self-destructive path that Islamabad chose will either splinter the state into many parts or it will wither away—a case of natural progression to its logical conclusion. In either case Baluchistan will achieve independence.

For New Delhi this opens a window of opportunity to ensure that the Gwadar port does not fall into the hands of the Chinese. In this, there is synergy between the political objectives of the Americans and the Indians. Our existing goodwill in Baluchistan requires intelligent leveraging.

Sindh and most of the non-Punjabi areas of Pakistan will be our new friends.

Pakistan’s breakup will be a major setback to the Jihad Factory, which functions with the help of its army and the ISI. This in turn will ease pressures on India and the international community.

With China’s one arm, i.e. Pakistan disabled, its expansionist plans will receive a severe jolt. Beijing continues to pose another primary threat to New Delhi. Even as we continue to engage with it as constructively as possible, we must strive to remove the proxy.

At the same time, it is prudent to extend moral support to the people of Tibet to sink Chinese expansionism in the morass of insurgency. For a change, let us do to them what they do to us.

With Pakistan gone, the chances of Central Asia getting infected with the Jihadi fervour will recede. Afghanistan will gain fair amount of stability. India’s access to Central Asian energy routes will open up.

With disintegration of ISI’s inimical activities of infiltration and pushing of fake currency into India, from Nepal and Bangladesh will cease. Within the Union social harmony will improve enormously. Export of Islamic fundamentalism, with its 360-degree sweep from Islamabad, will vanish. Even a country like Thailand will heave a sigh of relief.

Above all, the gathering threat from a united group of authoritarian regimes along our 14,000 km borders, orchestrated and synchronised by Pakistan, will dissolve.

At the height of the recent disturbances in the Valley, when a general asked me for a suggestion to resolve the issue, I said: “ Remove Pakistan. The threat will disappear permanently.” Today the collapse of Pakistan as a state is almost certain. All the King’s men cannot save it from itself.

Looking ahead, New Delhi should formulate an appropriate strategy for ‘post-Pakistan scenario’ to secure India’s interests in Central Asia.

It is intriguing, therefore, to hear New Delhi mouthing the falsehood that stable Pakistan is in India’s favour. Perpetuation of such illogic for vote-bank politics is harming the consolidation and integration of the Union

[CMNot]

I dont agree with you on a stable Pakistan is better for India.

How could a de-stable nuclear, islamist power on your border be better?

[Adux]

CMN,

I am trying to figure out how a balkanized Pakistan will look like. If nuclear weapons does exist in Pakistan after its break up it will be with its Punjab province. (or somehow the world countries grab them off hopefully)
A broken up Pakistan is a tactical threat or lesser at best, while today Pakistan is a strategic threat to both India and world.

A denuclerized broken up pakistan is in the best interest of the world and India. It makes dealing with them much much easier than it is now. You can even kiss terorrism goodbye.

[Eventine]

Longtime Eventine, Hope you are keeping well.

Thanks, same to you. Was kinda missing your regular India updates. p-)

[Ordie]

CMN,

I am trying to figure out how a balkanized Pakistan will look like.

Wouldn't that lead to a balkanized India? and a more militant Kashmir? or Khalistan?

[Adux]

Wouldn't that lead to a balkanized India? and a more militant Kashmir? or Khalistan?

how?
Most of Indian sepratist groups are funded by Pakistan, without a central Pakistan as a structure who will fund them. India is growing economical as well as its socety is becoming more liberal. Kashmir saw 65% voter turn out, the movement is not for kashmir, but rather for islamic kashmir therefore moving into pakistan, but its growing smaller now.
Khalistani movement was nipped in the bud by the Sikhs themselves, read about K.P.S Gill.
Sikhs in India is more than anything wants Pakistan to break up, It is the punjab in Pakistan which has the most number sikh holy places and history (lahore), you can expect India to much up these areas, PoK, baltistan and gilgit carving a border to Afghanistan.

[The Dane]

Wow.. The mess over there makes my head hurt..

[a_very_ex_STAB]

"The real problem is Pakistan. It is an artificial State. It was created by imperialist Britain in pursuit of its global strategic interests".

You lost me here!.

Actually Pakistan was formed by the actions of Jinnah (ironically from Bombay). Britain at the time would have preferred a single state but as the people on the ground didn't seem to want it and literally couldn't wait to slaughter each other in huge numbers and the Brits were pulling out anyway there was really nothing Britain could have done to stop it.

Of course it could be argued that there was no unified single entity of India prior to the British Raj - in which case modern India is as much of an artificial creation as Pakistan is alleged to be.

[Adux]

India is as much as a country as the equator is : Winston Churchill

I see India in a different prism.

[ggk]

India is as much as a country as the equator is : Winston Churchill

I see India in a different prism.

your retina a prism? no wonder your views quite different.

[ggk]

I am sure, coming to India to cleanse yourself of your guilt. Guru anyone?

off topic, i would love to visit indias exotic places. Really! im honest! its one of my listed places to visit before i die.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I actually agree with Winston churchil and your assertion, that being said I see India in a different prism, where people from different walks of life (religious, culture, race, language, caste etc etc) came together behind an idea of India, a pularistic society based on democracy,secuarlism and human rights.

OK
Calm is restored.

[CMNot]

****...we agree on one thing today Adux at least.

[Ordie]

how?
Most of Indian sepratist groups are funded by Pakistan, without a central Pakistan as a structure who will fund them.

Separtist movements (domestic/ international) have the tendency of targeting India. As in the case with the assainations Indira Ghandi and Rajiv Ghandi. Both were assasinated by Sikh and Sri Lankan Tamil separtist.

Moreover, India needs to look at the big regional picture than focusing on its petty internal details and rationalizing why thing's should'nt get done or remain status quo.

Imagine India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan and Sri Lanka as individual homes in a neghborhood. If the neighborhood is good, and attractive, with good schools, and security, the higher the house values and investment opportunites.

If the neighborhood is unkept, unsecure, poor schools and messy, then the value of the house goes down.

It would be worst if one of the neighbors house with a history of domestic violence, leads to a broken home and perhaps a crackhouse. In which case the nearest source of income is your own and your home values are in the toilet.

[The Dane]

:) Well spoken Ordie.