Is Iraq Safer than Mexico?

[I can't think of a name]

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/mexico/articles/20081215.aspx


December 15, 2008: This month, about 26 people a day are dying from criminal and terrorist violence a day in Iraq. That's a bit lower than the death toll in northern Mexico, which on a bad day (like last November 3rd) saw 58 people killed. The police are generally helpless, hundreds of thousands of middle-class Mexicans have fled the border region, often to the United States (if they had dual-citizenship, which many do). Those without money must hunker down and wait for someone to win this war. The drug gangs show no signs of weakening, although the army believes that it can prevail in the next year or so.

edit: Mods, please move this to the right section.

[I can't think of a name]

Anti-Kidnap expert gets kidnapped in Northern Mexico

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/world/americas/16mexico.html?partner=permalink&exprod=permalink


An American security consultant who is an expert on kidnapping and has helped negotiate the release of scores of kidnap victims in Latin America over the years was himself kidnapped last week in northern Mexico after delivering a seminar there on how to avoid that fate, according to officials and published reports.

[Airgun_Hunter]

It just Might be... :)

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f351/luft11_hoflich/Avatars%20and%20Smileys/Bush_shoe.gif

On a more serious commentary.
I can't tell about Iraq, I've never been there, but at least here it really sucks and things get ****tier every time.

God help us all.

[ronnieraygun]

I hit up a lot of border towns before stuff got really bad. They have always been rough and potentially violent places. They are going through tough times now but saying Iraq is safer is a good way to make a sensationalist headline and little more.

This ought to be in the political section because I would like to point out that so many politicians said NAFTA and commerce would help that region of Mexico (maquilladores, etc) but it seems like the violence is quite bad and people are as poor and desperate as ever if you read the papers. I'm not offering any opinion one way or the other but could someone square this for me?

[I can't think of a name]

Doh, I thought I was in the political section. I apologize mods. Can you move it there?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Ask yourself. In broad daylight as a foreigner could you walk down downtown Tijuana or broad daylight downtown Baghdad.

[Currahee 1SG]

Ask yourself. In broad daylight as a foreigner could you walk down downtown Tijuana or broad daylight downtown Baghdad.

I would take Iraq.

[ronnieraygun]

Ask yourself. In broad daylight as a foreigner could you walk down downtown Tijuana or broad daylight downtown Baghdad.

They have "El Sexy Donkey Show" in Baghdad?

[I can't think of a name]

Ask yourself. In broad daylight as a foreigner could you walk down downtown Tijuana or broad daylight downtown Baghdad.


Which one has a large US Army presence to find you?

[Currahee 1SG]

Which one has a large US Army presence to find you?

But you have the Mexican military $$protecting$$ you.

[Carib]

Variable this is Knife... over
http://www.imfdb.org/images/3/3f/OA93_CPD.JPG

[ronnieraygun]

But you have the Mexican military $$protecting$$ you.

Hehe - or play the "blue day, green day" game with the police...

"Buenos dias, senor...today only cars with the special green permit are allowed to drive."
...pass envelope with USD 20, explain that you thought you had the "blue permit" prominently displayed.

LOL

[ronnieraygun]

Variable this is Knife... over

Do you read me? (I thought that was Columbia, btw)

[Carib]

Do you read me? (I thought that was Colombia fixed, btw)

It was, I thought I'd just mix it up a bit... Glad you caught it!

[Shadowstorm]

Mexico is a safe place to go, but most of the border towns are battlefields right now.

[ronnieraygun]

It was I thought I'd just mix it up a bit... Glad you caught it!

jajaja colombia que si - thanks

[Airgun_Hunter]

Different situations indeed but.

In Mexico it's dangerous to be a a wealthy civilian, a medium class civilian and even a poor civilian.

Of course, it's also dangerous to be a soldier, or from other law enforcement agencies.

You're only safe if you're a politician. :(

God help us all amigos.

[Currahee 1SG]

Coordinated Attacks On Juarez Police



Ben Swann / KTSM News (http://www.ktsm.com/users/bswann)
December 15, 2008 - 6:56pm
Drug cartel hit-men are blamed for a coordinated attack on Juarez police Sunday night into Monday morning.
Gunmen killed four officers within a half hour period in four separate attacks.
Many officers have quit out of fear. Often after their names appeared on cartel hit lists.



http://www.ktsm.com/news/coordinated-attacks-on-juarez-police

[JJB1970]

I would like to point out that so many politicians said NAFTA and commerce would help that region of Mexico (maquilladores, etc) but it seems like the violence is quite bad and people are as poor and desperate as ever if you read the papers. I'm not offering any opinion one way or the other but could someone square this for me?

The impact of the maquiladoras is another of those issues that is always debated. It has been argued that the maquiladoras brought employment to Mexico that might not have existed at all otherwise.

The detractors have pointed out that most of the maquiladoras are little more than sweatshops in which the wages and work conditions (long overtime, forced overtime, child labor) are so bad that the only party that benefits from the system is the American consumer. The other issue in the background surrounding the maquiladoras is the disappearance of young working girls from the factories (murders). That issue has been overshadowed by the drug war as of late, but we are talking hundreds of girls. One of our Mexican members might be able to update on that, but my point here is that it is one of those social issues that the detractors of the maquiladoras point to discredit that system as inhumane.

I don't think the border issue is easily clarified because so many things have gone wrong and because so many things have been ignored for so long. While I am sure there are a few success stories, I don't think the maquiladora system is at all the success it was cracked up to be.

[deagle]

if the poorer classes can sneak in, imagine what cash-backed evil-doers can do to get in with ease ? ??

[Airgun_Hunter]

Well.

I've worked in maquiladoras when I was younger (during school vacations) just to buy my stuff and they're not sweat shops, but true that they get paid a low salary, but then again... you can't pay an uneducated almost illiterate person a lot.

In the northern cities the age for working in maquiladoras is 16 y/o with parents permission and at least elementary school diploma. how much can a person with that education make? YOU BET... minimum wage.

In Tijuana a Maquiladora worker makes about $51USD a week, in other cities down south I've heard they make half as much.

SO at least in northerner cities maquiladoras are an employment source that doesn't exist in those poor people's hometowns that's why they migrate to northern cities with lots of them maquiladoras.

And not forced overtime, or child labor, actually workers ask for overtime to make a little extra cash, workers get paid vacations and other benefits.

Prestigious maquilas like, SONY, HITACHI, SANYO etc. won't put up with child labor, they're managed by highly educated japanese or mexican (or brand name country of origin) managers wages depend on education and/or a$$-kissing to the big bosses.

[JJB1970]

SO at least in northerner cities maquiladoras are an employment source that doesn't exist in those poor people's hometowns that's why they migrate to northern cities with lots of them maquiladoras.


Absolutely. I think there is little doubt that there would be greater unemployment without the maquiladoras. My point in my response to R.R.'s post was that things aren't necessarily what was advertised in NAFTA--not quite as successful as promised--and that the merits of the system are debated.

My own opinion is that Mexico would be worse off without those factories--but the factories do bring along another set of problems (such as population growth in those zones). That population growth up north has helped caused what has annoyed many Americans north of the border--the illegal immigration issue. I think Americans were expecting that NAFTA would essentially stop illegal immigration from Mexico since they would have their own factory system. Those types of complications make this issue difficult for Americans to be totally happy with.

I have drifted way off topic.... so back to Mexico-Iraq. I have not heard that Mexico has become any more dangerous for tourists since the drug war became high profile. Has anybody heard or read that it is? My impression is that tourists are as safe as ever.

[Hispeed1]

I would take Iraq.

Iraq for me too. In Mexico, it's "plata o plomo."

[Dragunov]

Iraq for me too. In Mexico, it's "plata o plomo."

That's if you are a Policeman.

Other than that, you are safe. You just have to avoid cities like Tijuana, Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, Culiacan and Acapulco where gunbattles between Cartels vs Cartels vs Government take place.

[Hispeed1]

That's if you are a Policeman.
Other than that, you are safe. You just have to avoid cities like Tijuana, Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, Culiacan and Acapulco where gunbattles between Cartels vs Cartels vs Government take place.

Umm-I'm not trying to dispute you since you're on the ground there. But think about it-if the bad guys are willing to do that to the police and government officials who have guns and have power, what do you think they would do to a civilian?

[KoTeMoRe]

That's if you are a Policeman.

Other than that, you are safe. You just have to avoid cities like Tijuana, Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, Culiacan and Acapulco where gunbattles between Cartels vs Cartels vs Mother of all Cartels take place.

Cough just fixed it for you!

[ronnieraygun]

Umm-I'm not trying to dispute you since you're on the ground there. But think about it-if the bad guys are willing to do that to the police and government officials who have guns and have power, what do you think they would do to a civilian?

Reread thread and article please.

I've done a fair amount of travelling and I agree that Mexico is safe for your average turista. The ones doing the dying are generally those involved, cops and locals who were unlucky.

I don't know what your point is, Hispeed.

I hate to say it because I am not Mexican, but Mexico has appeared on international "corruption" indexes for a while now and has not done very well. The perception is that the recent violence is really rooted more in institutional corruption at its source - can a Mexican member tell us if that has any truth?

[indiana46767]

If you visit tourist cities you will be more secure than going to a city like Nuevo Laredo,Matamoros,Monterrey,Tijuana. Not very recommended unless you know your way around. I have properties there and am going for christmas and well i know where not to go and where not to go.

On a side not i will tell you all that the Federal Police and the Army are doubling up their effort because of the holiday season. May god be with them.

[Airgun_Hunter]

I Agree with Indiana.

If you're a tourist and visit most not northern border towns you'll have a pretty good and fun time in Mexico.

As already said. The heavy stuff is between cartels and military/police forces that are fighting organized crime.

[Hollis]

I read a report sometime back that said, "The chances of getting shot is greater in Washington D.C. than in Iraq."

[indiana46767]

I read a report sometime back that said, "The chances of getting shot is greater in Washington D.C. than in Iraq."

You know i have heard that before, one would think that DC being the nations capital would be one of the safest?!

[p$ycho+log!cal]

if ur in iraq, the only safe place is the green zone, except that, i wouldnt roam around rural place with no guns/security/convoy etc...........lets say i wouldnt visit ;)

[Parx400]

Detroit sounds like it is much worse than Baghdad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

[playtym]

Based on their murder rates, I'd say no. Iraq's in top spot, while Mexico only made number sixteen on the list. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/6845/murderspl9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[socom6]

Depends on where in Mexico u are, when I was in Aguascalientes there wasnt much going on there and I had a good time. In the northern border cities though there is a fat problem which is caused by a failed US drug policy. Its obvious that dumbass coke sniffers and crack heads in the US west is causing criminal bull**** in Mexico. As far as im concerned there is two ways around this and I have been preaching it on these forums for a long time.

1. Decriminalize narcotic drug use and put the production of narcotic drugs into the hands of large pharmaceuticals in coordination with government health agencies. Let GlaxoSmithKline Abbot Merck or Bayer make boutique cocaine, crack, and heroin among other drugs then let the governments tax sales and use the funds for major drug rehab and health research. You know how many billions will be taken from murderous drug dealers?

2. Go the Singapore Malaysia Iran way and ruthlessly hunt down and kill the stinking bastards, exterminate the whole freakin lot of them and capture all their assets. Imprisoning drug gangs aint doing crap you kill these fools. Execute any foreigner caught smuggling drugs from Mexico into the US and that includes greedy dumbass Americans and Canadians too who do that kind of crap.

[KoTeMoRe]

Depends on where in Mexico u are, when I was in Aguascalientes there wasnt much going on there and I had a good time. In the northern border cities though there is a fat problem which is caused by a failed US drug policy. Its obvious that dumbass coke sniffers and crack heads in the US west is causing criminal bull**** in Mexico. As far as im concerned there is two ways around this and I have been preaching it on these forums for a long time.

1. Decriminalize narcotic drug use and put the production of narcotic drugs into the hands of large pharmaceuticals in coordination with government health agencies. Let GlaxoSmithKline Abbot Merck or Bayer make boutique cocaine, crack, and heroin among other drugs then let the governments tax sales and use the funds for major drug rehab and health research. You know how many billions will be taken from murderous drug dealers?

2. Go the Singapore Malaysia Iran way and ruthlessly hunt down and kill the stinking bastards, exterminate the whole freakin lot of them and capture all their assets. Imprisoning drug gangs aint doing crap you kill these fools. Execute any foreigner caught smuggling drugs from Mexico into the US and that includes greedy dumbass Americans and Canadians too who do that kind of crap.


That's the Bailout Grande anti-recession plan!

[wigon]

Depends on where in Mexico u are, when I was in Aguascalientes there wasnt much going on there and I had a good time. In the northern border cities though there is a fat problem which is caused by a failed US drug policy. Its obvious that dumbass coke sniffers and crack heads in the US west is causing criminal bull**** in Mexico. As far as im concerned there is two ways around this and I have been preaching it on these forums for a long time.


Uh... drug abuse is not just in the Western United States.



1. Decriminalize narcotic drug use and put the production of narcotic drugs into the hands of large pharmaceuticals in coordination with government health agencies. Let GlaxoSmithKline Abbot Merck or Bayer make boutique cocaine, crack, and heroin among other drugs then let the governments tax sales and use the funds for major drug rehab and health research. You know how many billions will be taken from murderous drug dealers?


Well drug companies and their dealers (psychiatrists) already push some extremely dangerous drugs for mental illness such as Lorazepam that is INCREDIBLY difficult to get off of with horrific withdrawls that can last up to a year. One of my relatives has been trying to get off that stuff for years. Quite frankly I'd rather not see illegal drugs legalized as the legal drugs are already bad enough.
You will ALWAYS have crime where you have poverty. When people are poor and desperate, a certain percent will usually seek to exploit some type of illegal market where they can make alot money.




2. Go the Singapore Malaysia Iran way and ruthlessly hunt down and kill the stinking bastards, exterminate the whole freakin lot of them and capture all their assets. Imprisoning drug gangs aint doing crap you kill these fools. Execute any foreigner caught smuggling drugs from Mexico into the US and that includes greedy dumbass Americans and Canadians too who do that kind of crap.

Uh... most of the stuff coming through Mexico is from Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, Venezuela, etc... You mentioned Malaysia which I find funny as they execute people caught with illegal drugs there. Same in Indonesia next door to them. Iran likewise is not a major center of drug cultivation and has strict laws regarding drugs based upon their Shi'a version of Islamic law. With that said however, I should point out that even in countries where they brutally kill dealers/growers/smugglers like in China, people still get into the business.
Then you have our homegrown ganja (marijuana) growers and methlabs run by good ol' boys here America. Are we gonna execute them as well?
Meth has been one of the worst drug scourges in America.

There is a third option that nobody likes. You are I believe partly right that demand for the drugs is the biggest problem. However if you look at how much the Federal and State government spends on drug treament facilities and on helping individuals caught up in drug culture with no support system to get out, then you realize that our nation has really not gotten serious about fighting to reduce illegal drug usage in this country. Our solution is usually "throw them in jail" where often they still get access to illegal drugs.
At the same time I would agree with you about the legalization of *some* drugs such as Marijuana that I believe have some solid medicinal values and overall are quite a bit less dangerous then alcohol or nicotine. Marijuana isn't great for you, but its a type of drug that's much easier to deal with in terms of abuse. THAT drug in turn can be taxed and can help fund a SOLID program aimed at whiping out usage of illegal drugs through the setting up of drug treatment centers and long-term addict support centers around the country.
An example of how it doesn't have to be some bloated program is looking at WIC clinics (devoted to women's health in low income neighborhoods).
Modelling drug rehab programs after current centers that have a high success rate would be the key to victory.

Likewise, bringing back the "Say No to Drugs" program would be very helpful. As much as people liked to make fun of that program back in the 90's, the fact of the matter is that it had a dramatic effect on drug use by children as it was well integrated into public schools, all over the TV, radio, etc... as one massive propaganda campaign.

So essentially what I'm saying is that a true war on drugs to end illegal drug usage here in America would have to be a multi-****ged approach built on successful programs and funded by taxes from legalized marijuana.

Wigon

[El Diablo Rojo]

1. Decriminalize narcotic drug use and put the production of narcotic drugs into the hands of large pharmaceuticals in coordination with government health agencies. Let GlaxoSmithKline Abbot Merck or Bayer make boutique cocaine, crack, and heroin among other drugs then let the governments tax sales and use the funds for major drug rehab and health research. You know how many billions will be taken from murderous drug dealers?
****, kids already drink and drive, smoke pot at school. Who wouldn't want to share your English class with a hardcore junkie or tweaker? Just what society needs.

My idea is admittedly unrealistic (execution/deportation of druggies) but a man can still dream.

[Hispeed1]

CNN online news article, 12/21/08: "Nine headless bodies found in Mexico" (Again). "Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora said this month that organized-crime killings climbed to 5,376 in 2008, more than double the 2,477 such deaths in 2007."

[DaveDash]

.Well drug companies and their dealers (psychiatrists) already push some extremely dangerous drugs for mental illness such as Lorazepam that is INCREDIBLY difficult to get off of with horrific withdrawls that can last up to a year. One of my relatives has been trying to get off that stuff for years. Quite frankly I'd rather not see illegal drugs legalized as the legal drugs are already bad enough.

Then your healthcare system = FAIL. Where I come from, and where I live now, Lorazepam is given out under strict circumstances and most doctors will stop prescribing it after a while.

I know many people that suffer from anxiety (I myself take Lorazepam for fear of flying) and they are not addicted to benzos because it's properly regulated.

There is a lot to be said for regulating illegal drugs also. Imagine if benzos were available on the market freely and unregulated? Heck I even know people that are addicted to painkillers with 10mg/pill of codeine in them (panedine plus, neurofen plus, etc).

Cough medicine, coffee, smoking, alcohol, whatever, you name it. Drugs are out there, they're gonna get taken, you can either regulate the flow of drugs and try and control it somewhat, or bang your head against a brick wall, meanwhile those that DO control them in the organised crime world control hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue a year. Imagine where that money could go if it was regulated.



You will ALWAYS have crime where you have poverty. When people are poor and desperate, a certain percent will usually seek to exploit some type of illegal market where they can make alot money.

Actually, I'd say a very significant chunk of the demand for illegal drugs trade is made up by people who are far from poor. Forget life destroying drugs like Heroine or crack - you have methamphetamine, MDMA, GHB, etc etc etc. All consumed in massive quantities by blue and white collar citizens of the world. These people would be quite happy to go through regulated channels if that was a viable option, the drug cartels would lose a huge chunk of the pie, and the medical benefits would be huge.

Wiping out the cartels in Mexico will not solve the entire problem at the end of the day. They arn't the ones pulling the strings. The money all goes elsewhere (hint, one family in one particular country in Europe controls roughly 80% of the worlds cocaine trade). Whether it will help Mexico or not, well, I hope so. Control WHERE the money goes however....

[wigon]

You are right, here in Texas, the mental health care is rated as some of the worst in the United States (unless you can afford top dollar shrinks or just get lucky). Any general doctor can prescribe just about any drug for mental illness. Poor regulation regarding drugs like Lorazapam are due in part by the piss-poor literature regarding these drugs. For example the inserts that come with the drug listing the side-effects, etc... list alot of scary things. However they do not even come close to describing the extremely horrific withdrawl symptoms from long term usage. Like you, I use a similar drug (diazepam) which is in the same benzos family of drugs. I take it only ocassionaly during extreme peaks of anxiety and argued with my doctor who insisted that I take it every day because THAT'S how the literature recommended the dosage. He just flat out wouldn't listen to me and discontinued my prescription because I wasn't taking it "properly" even after I told him that when I did try taking it two weeks straight that it was giving me wierd nerve twitches and dizzy spells, but that it worked perfectly when I only took it once every two or three weeks. So yeah... I have very little faith in doctors overall. I know there are some great ones out there, but they are hard to find... especially general doctors as specialists are insanely expensive when you don't have health insurance (another issue to consider when it comes to legalizing illegal drugs).

You are also right that people can get addicted to damn near anything...hell people get addicted to water and to exercise. I'm not arguing that. What I'm debating is the strength of that addiction, the severity of withdrawl symptoms, and the overall long term health issues regarding certain drugs. This in my view must be analyzed when it comes to legalizing certain drugs. Any such plan should not be some knee-jerk reaction but rather a carefull planned out system of de-legalization done in a careful multi-stage manner. Otherwise it could very well end in total disaster with things like treatment centers stuck in beuracratic quagmires and other unforseen consequences. If done gradually by first, for example, legalizing marijuana and judging its sucess, I think it would set the stage for slowly de-criminalizing other drugs one by one.

As for your second comment, you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I was not speaking about poor people using drugs, but rather selling and distributing drugs.

I also have no idea which European family you are talking about who controls drug profits in Mexico. Why would drug cartels give their money to some European family? Drug money laundering I would assume, is easy to do in Mexico so I don't see any reason to send the money to some family in Europe.

Wigon

[ingsoc75]

Don't drink the water in either country ;)