American Taliban - Death of the enemy

[RavenW]

It’s not like I’m glad and celebrating that Palestinian supporter Rachel Corrin died – it was an unfortunate accident, BUT I don’t feel sorry for her either. As well as I don’t feel sorry for Timothy McVeigh. That’s another “American” citizen.
She was an evildoer and she got punished for her crimes through the unfortunate accident with bulldozer.

Since the issue of C.’s death was already raised on this forum, I decided to explain my personnel position on this issue.



While it is ultimately wrong to celebrate someone’s death on the principles of humanity, there is absolutely nothing wrong with feelings of relief caused by enemy’s death.

So I will divide this analysis in two parts.

1. Is it okay to feel relief by enemy’s physical destruction without expressing feelings of joy and celebration of enemy’s fall?
2. Was US citizen C. that particular enemy evildoer?

1. Personally, I think it is sick to celebrate anyone’s death because it is a sign of barbarity of that particular individual.
But I think we (as humankind) have our enemies and there is nothing wrong with feelings of relief after we learn about enemy’s physical elimination. I am not dancing and laughing because some terrorist dies, but I feel relief. Same goes for “Palestinian supporters”.

If you think that I enjoy someone’s death, it’s not true. When I first heard of C.’s death it made me feel sad – such a waste of human life – what did she do with her life? But then I felt a relief that another terrorist’s sympathizer has left our planet. She’s gone for good. Maybe ariweiner and weedman will move in the same direction.

Looking in retrospective at C.’s death, I wish it would not happen, I wish that bulldozer’s driver would notice that stupid evil liar and Israeli security agents would capture her and escort her out of the country to Syria where she belongs (I wouldn’t want to see her back on Great American soil as well as in the Land of Israel, better send her to hell, basically, where she belongs with other Nazi and Palestinian sympathizers).

2. Now to question 2. This is more difficult part to write.
Was C. (my countrywoman and fellow citizen) an enemy?

First things first.
The answer – Yes, she was.
She was not only an enemy of America and Israel, but she was an enemy of ALL peace loving people everywhere. Does it mean she should have died? Probably not.
Her death is sad (it was an accident) as any death in this world, but she was actually actively seeking it herself as she confronted army’s bulldozer and was deliberately trying to disrupt army’s operation.
I don’t think that she was supposed to die that day. She was not worse killing (waste of bullets), but I am certainly not sad by her disappearance from this world. She was an enemy, who was stupid enough to get under bulldozer. The only bad part, she might become a perverted image of “martyr” to other brain dead morons who idolize her.


Now, to the more important question - why? – why she was the enemy of humankind?
There are many other Americans like C. that I personally consider the enemies of humankind.
Among them -- John Walker (American Taliban).

Both these individuals served as a base of support (financial and moral) to evildoers (Taliban and Palestinian extremists). When C. decided to prevent army’s bulldozer to destroy terrorists infrastructure (a home of Palestinian terrorist) she became part of what we call terrorists “haven” supporter. Of course, we could start to examine her “pacifist” organization as a whole (which has its hands full of Jewish blood on them), as they help to move messages between terrorists in West Bank and serve as logistical channel for Palestinian terror in PA. We could mention also that her organization was accused by Israel’s government in direct support of one of the most violent terror organizations on this planet - HAMAS. But I think it would be better for our discussion to concentrate on C.’s deeds alone.

I would like to focus on her personal actions.
The reality of C.’s action is simple. While Israel’s army fights terrorists in West Bank and Gaza e.g. destroys military facilities of terrorists (their former civilian homes that they voluntarily turned into the bases and nests of their terror operations against Israeli civilians), C. did her outmost to shield evildoers from justice and prevent the hand of goodness to reach these bastards and punish them accordingly. She was helping Palestinians to do their evil deeds… I mean literarily, when someone stands between criminal and a SWAT team, he/she becomes criminal herself.

Now, if the SWAT team decided to destroy this particular facility as it was a place of constant meetings between terrorist heads or a place where terrorist bomber lived and “worked” and C. prevents this SWAT team from razing that place to the ground, this would be considered actually helping an enemy in the time of war (after all, it was C.’s American government that declared war on terrorism, and war against Palestinian terrorism in particular).

There are many American officials that died from the hands of Palestinian terrorists during the conflict in Middle East. There are even more American civilians -- old and young alike -- who died from the hands of Palestinian extremists. Yet, C. decided to help terrorists, by disrupting army’s operation to destroy one of the terrorists’ “haven” – a barrack/house located in Gaza.

Therefore, to everyone who is surprised that an American citizen dies from “American equipment”, dies from “the hands of Allies”, dies by “American taxpayers dollars”, I say – “Americans” die from the hand of our American government all the time and rightfully so. I hope in the future, we will spend more money on murder of such “Americans”.

Some of Al-Qaeda terrorists are American citizens.

John Walker, a member of evil Taliban, was an American citizen. Timothy McVeigh was definitely not on our side. He was a US citizen nevertheless.

I support the death of those “Americans”, who give aid to our enemy and provide moral and financial support to Arab terrorists. I support the murder of those “Americans” who prevent and endanger our army, our troops and the army of our allies during the time of war.
I support death and destruction of those who play in “solidarity movements” with different terrorists scum around the globe. I encourage my government to target and destroy all the murderers of our children and those who support them. C. was definitely NOT on our side as she provided “haven” for terrorists who planed to kill more of our own people. It is very important to remember that. It’s also very simple -- either you with us or against us. There are no neutrals in the war on terror. I hope that all Palestinian’s, Saddam’s and Nazi’s sympathizers would go to hell.

Whether they are killed by cruise missiles, helicopter fire, D9 bulldozer, harsh interrogations in CIA camps or just plain old bullet from M1911, they are our enemies that are using cover of our citizenship and they should be destroyed.


Death to evil terrorists and their supporters!

“Don’t shoot… let them burn!” (c) Saving Private Ryan (American GI about German soldiers)


I hope that I was not harsh in my speech. I tried to put it plain and simple.

I think in the time of war, in the war we are fighting right now, there must be absolute clarity about who belongs to which side and our goals in this war – a total and unconditional surrender to our forces, the complete and full destruction of the enemy.

G-d bless us all and G-d bless America.

[DPGLAW]

If she was a supporter of the Palestinian Authority then she is an enemy of all as they are a terrorist state. I use the term state extremely loosely. I am happy that she was killed since she supports terrorism via her support of the Palestinians. When BinLaden or Mullah Omar are killed I will be extremeley happy, to the point of celebrating so I do not see anything wrong with cheering for the death of our enemies. If you look at those crazies in Palestine and pakistan who cheered when 9/11 happened you will see that they cheered and even went as far as to hold what looked like a parade celebrating the deaths of innocent americans so that is another reason why I see celebrating the death of onbe of those "states" supporters as a good thing....

I know this is off topic but it is sort of related; if we (the US) capture Binladen alive I would like to see him executed in public on Pay Per View or something akin to that. Although I know this will never happen, unfortunately I can hope that it could happen...lol :) This statement was made to show how I would like to celebrate an enemies death and im sure many other Americans would like to see him die in that way as well.....

thanks for listening to my rant, I had a long day and it felt good to take out my anger this way....lol

[Midav]

Don't know what sparked this up, but also don't feel sorry for her.

She was told to get out of the way, if common sense hadn't told her to move to begin with.

[duck]

If she was a supporter of the Palestinian Authority then she is an enemy of all as they are a terrorist state. I use the term state extremely loosely. I am happy that she was killed since she supports terrorism via her support of the Palestinians. When BinLaden or Mullah Omar are killed I will be extremeley happy, to the point of celebrating so I do not see anything wrong with cheering for the death of our enemies. If you look at those crazies in Palestine and pakistan who cheered when 9/11 happened you will see that they cheered and even went as far as to hold what looked like a parade celebrating the deaths of innocent americans so that is another reason why I see celebrating the death of onbe of those "states" supporters as a good thing....

I know this is off topic but it is sort of related; if we (the US) capture Binladen alive I would like to see him executed in public on Pay Per View or something akin to that. Although I know this will never happen, unfortunately I can hope that it could happen...lol :) This statement was made to show how I would like to celebrate an enemies death and im sure many other Americans would like to see him die in that way as well.....

thanks for listening to my rant, I had a long day and it felt good to take out my anger this way....lol

So all support for Palestinians is also support for terrorists, right? Are they terrorists by birthright?

[RavenW]

Are they terrorists by birthright?

No. And noone implies this.

Palestinians become terrorists through nurture and behavioural formation. As they grow up, elaborate system of kindergarden brainwashing make terrorists out of them.
Kinda like Hitler Youth.
It is a hate teaching, that what makes them who they are.

Furthermore, if you notice my posts, there is not a single place where I say that Palestinian Arabs are terrorists by their biology.

In fact, I make an extra effort to emphasize that while it is okay to say "damn Palestinian terrorists", it's utterly wrong to say "damn Palestinians".



So all support for Palestinians is also support for terrorists


depends on what you mean by "support of Palestinians"
If you mean "support for Arabs of West Bank and Gaza to live in the state of their own". Then you will be surprised how many Israelis support Palestinians. In this sense, I also "support Palestinians".
I personally support a 3 state solution where Arabs of West Bank and Gaza would live in their own cantons and Jews of West Bank and Gaza would live in their own cantons.
A Palestina-Judea federation.

Israel (Jews) - Palestina-Judea Federation (Jews/Arabs) - Jordan (Arabs)

That's why I am against any "evacuation" of people from that territory.
Whether you are Jew or Muslim Arab or Christian Arab, you have a right to live in your home as long as you don't commit acts of terror or provide support for terrorists.
That's why I am against dismentaling Jewish villages in West Bank.

Now, to the question of "support of Palestinians'.
There is another definition.
Palestinization is an ideology, not a nationality invented by Soviets during 60s in order to destroy the State of Israel.
In other words, if you "support Palestinians=meaning=support destruction of the State of Israel", then you are an evil individual.

And very often, when we say "Palestinization" of Arabs of West Bank we talk about their refusal to recognize Jewish existence. Period!

Only 50 years ago, there were no "Palestinians" as we know them today, there were Arabs of West Bank and Gaza region. But it was an elaborate scheme performed by Soviet Union and Arab countries to "artificially" create this particular "ethnic" group.

I am for one for de-Palestinization of Arabs of West Bank through total and liberating war. As in de-Nazification of German people from the tyranny of Adolf Hitler.

In any way, "Palestinian" nation already exists de-facto. Whether we like it or not, this is a fact of reality. But the formation of new nation was made unfortunately on the basis of united hate toward Jews and Israel.
Thus, I think this new "nation" should be brought to its senses.
It would be better for Palestinians themselves if they would be liberated and recovered from the bad start. Remove Arafat and his gang! Dismantle infrastructure of terror. Their whole ideology and style of life is based on one thing and one thing alone - HATE.
This of course is a perversion and pathology, since no single state can survive and develop just on the perverted culture of hating other nation.

It's like a whole nation was developed because of mutual hate toward Israelis and Zionism (ideology/national aspiration movement to create state for the nation of Israel). Therefore, while Zionism is a very positive ideology based on "building" a state, Palestinization is a negative and destructive ideology, based on the destruction of Zionist State.

Baically, what I am saying - Palestinians cannot come back to normalcy by themselves. They need help from Israelis and Americans to bring them back to their senses. The Arab governments' perversion existed for too long in the Middle East. We must bring a positive change.

[RavenW]

When we say America opposes terrorism we better mean it.



U.S. funds promote 'martyrdom'
Despite stated policy, American money backs radicals

Posted: June 17, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Despite its policy to cut off funding to terrorists, the U.S. continues to finance promotion and glorification of Islamic "martyrdom," according to a report submitted to members of Congress.
In a recent example, nearly $500,000 of USAID [United States Agency for International Development] money funded a Palestinian Authority soccer stadium named after the head of Black September terrorists, says Itamar Marcus, author of the report.
The group was responsible for the murder of two Americans diplomats in Sudan and 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics.
Marcus, director of Israel-based Palestinian Media Watch, says that after testifying last October at a hearing of a Senate Subcommittee on Appropriations, U.S. officials assured him USAID money could not be used for terror promotion.
But Marcus contends his research proves that's not the case. Four legal loopholes allow U.S. money to reach champions of terror and terrorists, he says.
U.S. policy requires organizations receiving funding to sign an anti-terror clause called the Anti-Terrorism Certification.
The Palestinian Authority and its non-governmental organizations, however, have adamantly rejected these conditions.
That stance was reiterated in a vote of the PA Legislature this month, reported the Palestinian daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida.
The Palestinian Legislative Council "rejects USAID conditions regarding support to local organizations," the statement said, by refusing to sign "a commitment not to support, finance or join activities of institutions or individuals of terrorist nature, by the known American definition."
Yet USAID still funds numerous projects in PA areas, totaling more than $174 million in 2003, with similar funding planned for this fiscal year.
The "Martyr Salakh Khalaf" soccer stadium inaugurated last month was named for Salakh Khalaf, better known as Abu Iyad, head of the Black September terrorist organization that murdered American diplomats Cleo Allen Noel Jr. and George Curtis Moore in Sudan in 1973.
In a report of the stadium's inauguration, the PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida said "speeches were made by UNICEF representative in Palestine Jonathan Hutchen and "in the name of USAID, which financed the project. … Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport, Dr. Jamal Muhaysin, thanked the sponsoring and supporting agencies and praised the management of the Shahid [Martyr] Salakh Khalaf Center … which is considered one of the most important and ... biggest sport centers."
Marcus said another striking example of supporting terrorism was mentioned in the same article.
USAID gave $10,000 to the Gaza City Council, which has honored the recently slain spiritual leader of the terrorist group Hamas, Ahmad Yassin, with the naming of a street.
The city council, according to the article, has named more than 300 city streets after Palestinian and Arab "martyrs."
Marcus says the four flaws in the Anti-Terrorism Certification are "exempted recipients, ignoring the money chain, ignoring the fungibility of budgets and differences over the definition of terror."
Exempted recipients: The problem, Marcus says, is governments and municipalities are exempt from signing the ATC. "This is a significant loophole," he asserts, "because both the PA and PA municipalities have received substantial U.S. funding, and both continue to be involved in terror glorification and promotion."
Ignoring the money chain:: U.S. law does not place sufficient restrictions on the way primary recipients, including international organizations receiving U.S. money such as the World Bank and the United Nations, give out money originating in the U.S., according to Marcus.
Ignoring fungibility of budgets: U.S. funding agencies routinely ignore terror promotion and anti-American activities of recipients when these activities are not directly funded by U.S. money, Marcus contends.
Defining and renouncing terror: While all PA groups and non-governmental organizations openly purport to "renounce terrorism," they refuse to accept the U.S. list of terror organizations, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, Marcus notes. They define killing Israelis – and Americans in Iraq – as "resistance."


http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38995

[usa320]

Her death was good for evolution according to darwins theory.

p-)

If your dumb enough to walk in front of a moving bulldozer....

[Secret Squirrel]

Her death was good for evolution according to darwins theory.

p-)

If your dumb enough to walk in front of a moving bulldozer....

Dont you mean Herbert Spencer's "survival of the fittest"?

[RavenW]

Israeli War Museum Aims to Shock

Thu Jun 17, 9:59 AM ET
By Matthew Tostevin

TEL AVIV (*******) - Taking a peep under the flimsy blouse, Reuven Erlich, director of Israel's new "museum of terrorism" grinned. "Here is a nice lady with a suicide belt," he said. "The switch is in her hand."

Strapped to the belly of a mannequin was a mock-up bomb packed with metal shrapnel like those worn by Palestinian suicide bombers who have killed hundreds of Israelis during more than three and a half years of conflict.

Born from the violence, the museum called the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center does not set out to give a full picture of the conflict or of Palestinian society.

Neither do the exhibits show much sign of a willingness for peacemaking between foes steeped in mistrust and hatred on both sides.

"This is not a comprehensive display about Palestinian society or politics. Because we're dealing with terrorism it has a certain angle," said Erlich. "It's not complete, but I think it's a very good demonstration."

Many of the documents were confiscated during operations in the West Bank. A haul of captured weapons came from a ship seized in 2002 on which Israel says the Palestinian Authority was bringing arms from Iran.


SYMBOLISM

Not everything looks as menacing as the missiles and bombs but even a pretty map embroidered in a traditional Palestinian style can send a signal.

"It's nicely done, but the point is the message. You see Jaffa is marked but not Tel Aviv. There are Arab cities but no Israeli cities. This is the message of delegitimizing Israel," Erlich said.

Children's scrapbooks taken from raids into the West Bank are pasted carefully with clippings of Palestinian "martyrs" who blew themselves up in suicide bombings or were killed in gunfights with the Israelis.

"Their basic claim is that it's all about the occupation. Our claim is the opposite," said Erlich.

Palestinians argue that the violence and anger are a consequence of years of repression and humiliation by Israelis in territories they want for a state.

To explain bloody attacks on civilians, Palestinian militants say they have adopted such tactics because they do not have weapons to take on the might of the Israeli army.

The uprising began in 2000 when peace talks foundered on setting up a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, captured by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war.

.........................................

Visitors need to book in advance for the center, which is happy to welcome school groups and researchers as well as the curious.

Erlich hopes that one day the fighting will end. He says that the museum might then be able to put on a different sort of display.

The plan for now is to make it even more shocking with the addition of a bus ripped apart in a 2002 suicide bombing.

"When you come here, you will enter through an exploded bus so you will be more frightened," said Erlich. "Terrorism is not nice."


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040617/capt.jrl10906170337.mideast_israel_militancy_museum_jrl109.jpg
Visitor views exhibits in Israeli Museum of Palestinian Terrorism

[ariweiner]

The posts on this topic justifying the murder of Rachel Corrie indicates very clearly the equivalent Western mentality of the people who justified and supported the murder on 9/11. Rachel Corrie was not trying to prevent an Israeli military action. She was trying to prevent the destruction of a Palestinian home by Israeli thugs. I would suggest to those who support her death to go and sign up with Al-Qaeda. Your type of mentality is exactly what they are looking for.

[RavenW]

Generally, I think that bannig someone is wrong... It gives them status of a 'victim'. Too much attention to a piece of **** rises this piece of **** in forum.

Lets just ignore morons. Don't waste your time on them and

don't lower yourself to their position.

nazi crap will always be nazi crap...


P.s. The only time I called for ban is when person openly incited to racial/ethnic/religious hatred and publically indorsed anti-Semitic laws passed in Saudi Arabia against people of Jewish descent.

------------------------------------
"Waste of Time"
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16486




Thus, I suggest to anyone who cares...

1. Answer the question, explain situation and engage in dialogue when you see positive prospects of dialoge and mutual understanding.

2. Ignore flame and provocative remarks that usually driven by hatred to Jewish state. There is no way you will change them or convince them of your moral values.

I just say, ignore them. It's a waste of time and life! Don't talk to this Nazi crap!

choose your fights... don't cheap yourself to the position of argument with moral degradation or cynical bastard.

[ArmedPacifist]

She died defending her morals and standing up for what she thought was right.

May she Rest in peace.

[Kilgor]

and she did it in a very reckless and careless manner, and paid for those actions with her life.

Btw.. why did she feel the need to wear the veil ?

[rokus2595]

The posts on this topic justifying the murder of Rachel Corrie indicates very clearly the equivalent Western mentality of the people who justified and supported the murder on 9/11. Rachel Corrie was not trying to prevent an Israeli military action. She was trying to prevent the destruction of a Palestinian home by Israeli thugs. I would suggest to those who support her death to go and sign up with Al-Qaeda. Your type of mentality is exactly what they are looking for.

True. Instead they sign up with the US, and and the rest of the world is worst off...

[Fargin]

Rachel Corrin did something you could never grasp the consept of, so you call her a terrorist and a nazi and wish her to hell. We live in two different realities which I'm truely thankfull for. RavenW your train of though is flaved, hatefull and derailed.


I wish you the best of luck.


Whether they are killed by cruise missiles, helicopter fire, D9 bulldozer, harsh interrogations in CIA camps or just plain old bullet from M1911, they are our enemies that are using cover of our citizenship and they should be destroyed. I've seen this exact rhetorics some fifth years ago. Extermists who make great effort of sounding humane has always filled me with nausia and makes me want to break something.

Suppressed will always become suppressors. You think like a nazi, Corrin did not.

rofl I have to laugh my ass off, because if I didn't I'd proberly start crying on your behalfs. Have a nice weekend.

[AirZone]

Dont worry Raven I support you... Its just people live in different realities and thats why some cant understand others way of thinking (ours more realistic and based on logical thinking)

and like Raven said you would be suprised how much Israelis support the state of palastine...

Ari go spread your anti-israel (and anti-jew) lies that your mulsim cleric tells you elsewhere :roll:

and if you want to see reality and not stories i suggest you should visit Haifa (where arbs and jew have a great co-existance) or mabye ride a bus in jerusalem...

visit Tel-Aviv too (all the major cities in Israel) mabye visit the Golan and the Galilee see the arbs that lives peacefully (and some cities that are anti israel but still have all the rights that i have) mabye you heard about Israeli-Arb soccer team that won the national cup ? and then visit all the cities of the palastines like jenin, gaza and so on... mabye you will understand the conflict better when everything happens infront of your eyes and not from some basied website and your fellow muslims who doesnt love us so much... :roll:

[rokus2595]

the following link might give everyone an idea or two as to why she was in Palestine and died there...

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/ForAJustPeace.pdf

[SOG]

Both these individuals served as a base of support (financial and moral) to evildoers (Taliban and Palestinian extremists).

im not keyed in on her background, did she give money to extremeists or is that a general accusation since she supported them?


When C. decided to prevent army’s bulldozer to destroy terrorists infrastructure (a home of Palestinian terrorist) she became part of what we call terrorists “haven” supporter.

well, did someone live there before or after who wasnt a terrorist? maybe she wasnt supporting terrorists directly but just not wanting someones home from getting wrecked? i mean id be pissed off if someone leveled my home because a asshole bad guy was holed up in it. but i can totally understand if it was owned/operated by terrorist supporters or terrorists themselves.


Of course, we could start to examine her “pacifist” organization as a whole (which has its hands full of Jewish blood on them), as they help to move messages between terrorists in West Bank and serve as logistical channel for Palestinian terror in PA. We could mention also that her organization was accused by Israel’s government in direct support of one of the most violent terror organizations on this planet - HAMAS. But I think it would be better for our discussion to concentrate on C.’s deeds alone.

sorry, again i dont know this story or history, is she part of a bad organization or one that has questionable ties? being accused by israel is one thing, being proven is another. i understand israel not wanting to reveal sources of collection etc in intel but this almost comes off as, support this region and your a enemy.


I would like to focus on her personal actions.
The reality of C.’s action is simple. While Israel’s army fights terrorists in West Bank and Gaza e.g. destroys military facilities of terrorists (their former civilian homes that they voluntarily turned into the bases and nests of their terror operations against Israeli civilians),

well again, how do we know they voluntarily turned thier homes into terrorists havens? was anyone there? or just many assumptions made? from the actions i have seen of this chic, she seems to be against the destruction of homes for people, not terrorists?


C. did her outmost to shield evildoers from justice and prevent the hand of goodness to reach these bastards and punish them accordingly. She was helping Palestinians to do their evil deeds… I mean literarily, when someone stands between criminal and a SWAT team, he/she becomes criminal herself.

well also, the person who stands inbetween is a consiensous objector. just because she objects doesnt mean she supports terrorists. from some stand points she comes off as a humanitarian since she actually went over there and worked.


Now, if the SWAT team decided to destroy this particular facility as it was a place of constant meetings between terrorist heads or a place where terrorist bomber lived and “worked” and C. prevents this SWAT team from razing that place to the ground, this would be considered actually helping an enemy in the time of war (after all, it was C.’s American government that declared war on terrorism, and war against Palestinian terrorism in particular).

well again, too many assumptions. are all these places where terrorists meet and live and work? i know for a fact the israelis cant be wholly discerning. if a apartment building is used, then is the whole building game? i mean thats a lot of space to suddenly condemn for a fews actions.

i personally think your argument was a little too zealous without simple facts, really so i could form something from them. im all for the US and israel but people like her have crossed the edge because we arent perfect and everyone makes mistakes and the mistakes israel made i believe drove her. i see a alot of finger pointing and accusations against her but is that all they are?

[rokus2595]

Preventing Palestinians Access to their Lands West of the Separation Barrier in the Tulkarm-Qalqiliya Area

As B'Tselem has previously highlighted, the separation barrier causes severe human rights violations affecting tens of thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank. This report discusses the restrictions on movement of Palestinians living in villages situated close to the eastern side of the barrier in the area between Tulkarm and Qalqiliya. These restrictions make it difficult for them to reach their farmland and impair their ability to make a living.

The findings of the report include the following:

* The current route of the separation barrier is the primary cause of human rights violations in the area. Although the route was ostensibly based on security considerations, extraneous reasons, among them the desire to route the barrier east of the settlements and land intended for their expansion, also played a role. These extraneous considerations are improper and cannot justify the violation of Palestinian human rights.

* Since October 2003, Israel has implemented a new system of permits, through which it restricts Palestinians' access to their farmland situated west of the barrier. This system flagrantly discriminates between Palestinians and Jews and breaches Israel's obligations pursuant to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights to respect the right of residents of the Occupied Territories to freedom of movement (Section 12) and not to discriminate against them (Section 2).

* Israel rejects about twenty-five percent of the applications to obtain entry permits into the Seam Area.

* The complexity and difficulty involved in obtaining a permit raises the suspicion that the policy is intended to create despair among the farmers, hoping that they will cease working their land west of the barrier.

* Israel restricts the freedom of movement of farmers holding permits to enter their land. It has done this by reducing the number of gates through which they can enter their land from twelve gates, as stated in the order setting up the permits system, to the five gates that are operational. Israel places further restrictions on movement by opening the gates only two or three times a day and for short periods (up to ninety minutes total). Operation of the gates in this manner severely impairs the Palestinian farming sector.

* Israel refuses to compensate Palestinians who are refused access to their lands for their loss of income. In failing to do so, Israel breaches the Fourth Geneva Convention (Section 39), pursuant to which the occupying state must ensure the residents livelihood in cases in which they are prevented from earning a living on security grounds.

* The harm to the livelihood of many farmers in the area aggravates the economic hardship that has prevailed in the Occupied Territories since the beginning of the intifada, in late September 2000.

In light of these findings, B'Tselem urges the government of Israel to tear down the sections of the barrier that have been built within the West Bank and move them, if Israel continues to think the barrier is necessary in those areas, to the Green Line or inside Israel itself. Until that time, the government should:

* revoke the declaration of the Seam Area as a closed military area;

* eliminate the requirement for permits, and keep the agricultural gates open from morning to night;

* in cases where the state denies persons access to their land for whatever reason, the authorities must state their reasons in detail and in writing, allow the persons to argue their case, and compensate them for their present and future losses.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Qalqiliya_Tulkarm_Barrier_2004.asp

[rokus2595]

Forbidden Families: Family Unification and Child Registration in East Jerusalem

On 31 July 2003, the Knesset enacted the Nationality and Entry into Israel (Temporary Order) Law, 5763-2003. The law forbids Israelis married to, or who will marry in the future, residents of the Occupied Territories to live in Israel with their spouses. Israelis married to foreign nationals who are not residents of the Occupied Territories are still allowed to submit requests for family unification on their behalf.

The new law also harms children born in the Occupied Territories to parents who are residents of East Jerusalem. The Ministry of the Interior changed its procedures regarding the registration of these children in the Population Registry. Rather than filing a "Request to Register a Child," it became necessary to submit a request for family unification for them. Under the new law, such requests are not allowed. As a result, it is impossible to legalize the children's status in Israel.

The law does not establish a new immigration policy for residents of the Occupied Territories. International law recognizes the right of every state to determine who is entitled to enter its territory, so foreign nationals have no intrinsic right to enter the country. Some countries set immigration quotas, based on varying criteria. However, when foreigners are married to nationals or residents of the state, different rules apply, and there are limitations to the discretion that the government may exercise. As in every case where a state authority exercises discretion, the rules must be reasonable, based on substantive grounds, and applied without discrimination. The issue involved here is not whether the foreign national has a right to enter the state, but the right of citizens and residents of the state to live with their spouses in the country in which they were born.

The law severely infringes the right to family life of Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem. Some residents of East Jerusalem married to residents of the Occupied Territories will now have to live separately from their spouses. Couples that want to live together in Israel, will be breaking the law, and as such will live in constant fear and be unable to lead a normal life. If couples choose to live together in the Occupied Territories, the Israeli spouse will be breaking the law because of the military order that prohibits the entry of Israelis into the Occupied Territories.


Couples who got married before the law was enacted and the spouse from the Occupied Territories did not yet receive a permanent status in Israel, are allowed to live together only if the spouse receives a temporary permit from the Civil Administration. Submitting an application for a temporary permit is difficult and Israel often cancels such permits. Even prior to enactment of the law, couples had difficulty living together in Jerusalem because of the problems entailed in obtaining the permits. Enshrining this situation in law will make the couple's life uncertain, with no chance for favorable change.

The new policy regarding the registration of children creates an unreasonable situation. The Interior Ministry registers some children in the family and allows them to live with their parents in Jerusalem, but forces other children in the family to leave their family or to remain in Jerusalem illegally. The change in policy has turned many children into lawbreakers. Children born in the future will also be breaking the law. Many parents will not obey a law that forbids them to live with their children, so the children will continue to live with their family in Jerusalem, without permits. The children will not be entitled to state health insurance, and the parents will not receive the children's allowance for them from the National Insurance Institute.

Israel contends that the law is necessary for security reasons, because the entry of residents of the Occupied Territories – whoever they are – and their free movement within Israel after receiving a legal status in Israel, endanger the safety of Israeli citizens. The state offers only one statistic to back up this claim – twenty-three Palestinians who received legal status in Israel pursuant to the family unification process were involved in the carrying out attacks against Israelis.

The contention that cancellation of the procedure for family unification of Israelis and Palestinians was based on security considerations was not raised in a comprehensive and detailed manner until the state had to justify the cancellation to the High Court of Justice. Prior to that, the state offered other reasons to justify the policy, among them the "danger to the Jewish character of the state" resulting from family unification, and the claim that residents of the Occupied Territories exploit the family unification procedure to carry out a "creeping right of return." The official reliance on security considerations is an attempt to create an ostensibly legitimate legal basis for the law, on the assumption that the state will have difficulty defending the real reasons before the High Court and the international community.

A serious discussion was never held on the demographic claims, in part because of the state's attempt to conceal the demographic argument. The claims were never proven, and no state official presented any relevant statistics. According to the Interior Ministry, between 100,000 and 140,000 Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories received legal status in Israel through the family unification process. However, these figures, which were intended to be used to support the demographic justification for the law, are not relevant in a discussion on family unification of Israelis and residents of the Occupied Territories. The Ministry itself admitted that its number included spouses who were not residents of the Occupied Territories (for whom family unification was not cancelled) and the couple's children.

The state was so sure of the strength of its argument that it did not bother to provide a foundation for it. It contended that forty-five Israelis were killed and 145 wounded in attacks in which Palestinians who had received legal status in Israel pursuant to the family unification process had been involved. However, it did not indicate how may attacks were carried out, their location, the nature of the involvement of the Palestinians who had legal status in Israel, and the how having an Israeli identity card benefited them in carrying out the attack. The state also did not mention whether the individuals were tried, the offenses for which they were convicted, or the sentences they received – if, in fact, some of them were tried and convicted.

Even if the state's contention that these twenty-three Palestinians were involved in carrying out attacks is entirely accurate, this statistic is certainly not a sufficient basis for the state's contention that the general population of residents of the Occupied Territories who are married to Israelis constitutes a danger. Some 0.02 percent of them, according to the state, took advantage of their legal status in Israel to assist in attacks.

The state's contention about the threat posed by residents of the Occupied Territories is unconvincing for another reason as well. The law allows the entry of Palestinians into Israel to work, obtain medical treatment, or "any other temporary purpose," and allows the granting of permanent residency to collaborators and their families. The law also allows residents of the Occupied Territories whose requests for family unification have already been approved to remain in Israel, and states that the Interior Ministry will consider requests submitted prior to the government's decision.

The state's logic, whereby isolated cases are sufficient grounds to punish hundreds of thousands of people could be similarly used to justify the imposition of all sorts of other prohibitions. For example, is it not justifiable to forbid Arab citizens of Israel to enter Jewish towns and villages after an Arab citizen carried out an attack and several other Arabs were accomplices? Is it not justifiable to forbid settlers from crossing the Green Line and entering Israel after one of them transported the suicide bomber who committed the attack at the Geha intersection, and after a number of settlers were convicted of selling weapons to Palestinians?

For many years, demographic considerations have indeed affected Israeli government policy. However, the new law adds a particularly grave innovation. This policy was enshrined in law in July 2003, and is the first law that explicitly denies rights on the basis of national origin. The determination that Israelis are allowed to live with the person of their choice and inside the country unless they are married to residents of the Occupied Territories, is racist and discriminatory.

B'Tselem and HaMoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual urge the Israeli government to change its policy and treat its citizens and residents equally, and call on the Knesset to repeal the new law. The Interior Ministry must reinstate the procedures for family unification and the registration of children, and process these requests efficiently and fairly. They must recognize the right of residents of East Jerusalem to marry whomever they choose and to live with their spouse and children wherever they wish.


http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Forbidden_Families_2004.asp

[rokus2595]

"The blond soldier grabbed his arm and twisted it behind his back, and the other soldier kicked him in the abdomen. Then they told him to lie down on his stomach, and the dark-haired soldier put his rifle to the back of his head and said that he was going to shoot and kill him. The soldier counted to three, and on three, the blond soldier fired into the air. They did the same thing to me."

A Palestinian medical team taking Nazmi a-Sheikh, age 43, to the hospital. A-Sheikh was severely beaten by IDF soldiers at the Sarra checkpoint in Nablus District on December 28, 2003. Photo: Eliezer Moav


Today B'Tselem released a report describing a series of cases of severe abuse by IDF soldiers over the past week at the Sarra checkpoint, next to Nablus.

B'Tselem's checkpoint monitors took testimonies from ten Palestinians who were assaulted between December 27-31 by soldiers serving at the checkpoint. The abuse included a mock execution, severe beatings and tying up the victims. The abuse occurred on a regular basis.

After documenting the first case on December 28, B’Tselem sent urgent appeals to various IDF officials to stop the abuse, remove the soldiers from the checkpoint and initiate investigations. In spite of these appeals, the abuse continued all week.

The IDF's siege policy, now in force for over three years, has resulted in severe human rights violations at IDF checkpoints. The IDF has failed to prevent grave incidents such as those documented in this report. The report argues that these cases are the direct and unpreventable result of the IDF's sweeping and destructive siege policy, manifested in hundreds of physical obstacles and dozens of staffed checkpoints preventing movement within the West Bank.

B'Tselem therefore calls for the removal of checkpoints inside the West Bank.

Until they are removed, B'Tselem calls upon the IDF:·

* To immediately remove the soldiers serving at the Sarra checkpoint;

* To open Military Police Investigations and bring to justice all those responsible for the incidents described in the report;

* To open Military Police Investigations into all cases in which soldiers harm Palestinian civilians.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/2004/040104.asp

[rokus2595]

Medical Personnel Harmed - The Delay, Abuse and Humiliation of Medical Personnel by Israeli Security Forces



Israel's siege policy that has been implemented in the Occupied Territories over the last three years has unquestionably altered the lives of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. As of early November 2003, the IDF had established fifty-six staffed checkpoints in the West Bank, as well as 607 physical roadblocks that prevent the passage of motor vehicles— 457 dirt piles, 94 concrete blocks and 56 trenches.

These restrictions on movement impede the functioning of an emergency medical system. As a result of the physical roadblocks, ambulances must travel along winding, make-shift roads and patients must make their own way over mounds of dirt or be carried on stretchers to the other side. The absence of soldiers at these physical roadblocks makes it impossible for the sick to even explain the urgent nature of their medical problem.

Medical personnel frequently experience difficulties in crossing staffed checkpoints. The IDF does not have special procedures for ambulances to cross checkpoints, but have issued only a general procedure relating to Palestinians who seek to cross. The procedures do not provide a proper solution for the severe problems ambulances have in reaching hospitals; in addition, soldiers at times ignore the procedures. Ambulance medical teams have also reported that they are often humiliated by the security force personnel stationed at the checkpoints, and in some cases have been beaten. In a few extreme cases, medical personnel have reported soldiers' use of ambulances for military purposes.

As a result of these difficulties, ambulances are able to reach the sick and wounded only thirty percent of the time. The rest of the time, patients are forced to get to a physical roadblock or checkpoint by themselves. As a result, many Palestinians forgo calling ambulances. This phenomenon is demonstrated by the drastic drop in Palestinian women who give birth in a hospital. The rate of hospital births has dropped from ninety-five percent before the intifada to less than fifty percent

International law is unequivocal on matters related to the protection of medical teams. Medical personnel are not to be unnecessarily delayed or harmed, unless they participate in military actions. The IDF has used this narrow, single reservation to justify a sweeping policy. Official sources repeatedly claim that Palestinians use ambulances to transport weapons and explosives, without ever bothering to provide evidence to back this up. The army's contentions easily lead the soldiers to act with suspicion, violence, and disdain toward ambulances and medical personnel. Challenging the status of ambulances as rescue vehicles critically harms the emergency medical system in the West Bank.

Israel uses "security considerations" to defend its operations in the Occupied Territories. The IDF justifies most of the harm caused to ambulances and medical teams on these grounds as well. As in other cases, it seems that in this case too, the IDF makes cynical use of security concerns to justify sweeping violations of the human rights of Palestinians.

B'Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights urge the security forces to respect international law regarding the sick, wounded, and medical personnel and:

* Remove all the siege checkpoints;

* Refrain from delaying ambulances at checkpoints. When specific information exists relating to a particular ambulance, a substitute ambulance should be made available to transport the sick and wounded;

* Explain to soldiers the prohibition on humiliating or abusing medical personnel;
* Refrain from using ambulances for military purposes;

* Investigate every complaint sent to the Judge Advocate's office and take measures against the soldiers involved.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Medical_Staff_Report_2003.asp

[rokus2595]

Harsh living conditions in Nu'man, East Jerusalem

Extracts of testimonies of residents of Nu'man describing the harsh conditions in the village

Hardships in access to medical treatment

Neither Nu'man nor its neighboring village al-Khas have medical facilities, and the restrictions on freedom of movement also affect the residents' access to medical treatment. The nearest medical clinic is in Dar Salah, two kilometers away. However, that clinic suffers from a chronic shortage of equipment and medicine, so residents use clinics in Beit Sahur, Bethlehem, or Beit Jala. Patients with chronic medical problems and their families are the ones who suffer the most from this situation

From the testimony of Radi 'abd 'Ali 'Atiya, age 30, married and fater of three, resident of Nu'man, East Jerusalem

The testimony was given to 'Atef Abu a-Rob at the witness's house on 6 August 2003

My twelve-year-old brother Marwan has diabetes. He needs to go daily to the clinic in Beit Sahur to get insulin. The road via Hilwah Grave is blocked, so we arrange for the ambulance from the government hospital in Beit Jala to wait for us by the dirt roadblock at the end of the Hilwah Grave road. We have to go with my brother to the roadblock. The ambulance waits for us about thirty meters from the roadblock and then takes him to the clinic.

Marwan's condition worsened about a month ago, and we had to take him to al-Moqassad Hospital, in Jerusalem. My mother and I went with him. We left Nu'man for Jerusalem and passed the dirt piles at the edge of the village. We walked two kilometers to Tsur Baher, where we got on a bus that took us to Jabel Mukaber. Then we took a taxi to the Musrara neighborhood. Soldiers were stationed at a checkpoint there. They stopped the taxi. The soldiers checked our ID cards and my brother's medical documents. They delayed us for twenty minutes or so and then let us pass. Marwan was in very poor condition. He was unable to walk. We supported him the whole way, and had to carry him at times. When we reached the hospital, he was taken straight to intensive care. He was hospitalized for several days. Following his discharge, we traveled to Abu Dis, and then to Hilwah Grave via the al-Qontainer roadblock, and then by foot to the village.

Difficulties suffered by children going to and from school

From the testimony of 'Ayisha Shhada Musa Hamad, a woman age 40, married and mother of seven, resident of Nu'man

There are no schools in Nu'man. From the 1960s to 1995, the children studied in schools in the East Jerusalem communities of Umm Tuba and Tsur Baher. In 1995, the Jerusalem Municipality decided that, because Nu'man's residents have West Bank identity cards, they are not entitled to study in the municipality's school system. The children then transferred to schools in al-Khas for primary school and to Beit Sahur for high school.
Pile of dirt placed on the road between Nu'aman and the rest of Jerusalem. Photo: Yehezkel Lein, B'Tselem

Three of my children study in Beit Sahur. One is in the first grade, one is in the tenth grade, and another is in the twelfth grade. They walk to Hilwah Grave and then take a taxi to Beit Sahur. Sometimes, Border Police officers wait behind the dirt piles in Hilwah Grave. They check their ID cards and delay the children. Sometimes, the Border Police officers do not allow the children to pass, and they have to walk a kilometer and a half into al-Khas to a hilly area that leads to the Wadi Nar Road, where they take a taxi to Beit Sahur.

In the winter, the children are sick all the time because they walk in the rain and cold. It makes me sad to see them going off to school in the rain. They often come home coughing and shivering from the cold. This torment starts at age five, when the children begin kindergarten in al-Khas.

Shortage of water

Because the Jerusalem Municipality does not provide services to the village, the residents have relied on services from various service providers in the West Bank. The closing of roads leading to the village affects the orderly supply of these services.

From the testimony of Yusuf Dir'awi, a resident of Nu'man,

For many years, we received water from a well in the Hilwah Grave area near Beit Sahur, and for the past several months we have been connected to the al-Khas water network. All houses in the village are hooked up, but the pipe's small diameter results in low water pressure and frequent interruptions. This is the source of our ongoing water-supply problems. As a result, we have to cut back greatly on our household water consumption.

In December 2000, soldiers blocked the road to Beit Sahur in the Hilwah Grave area. When they blocked the road, they broke the pipe and left us without water for several days, until we fixed it. During this period, we asked the Jerusalem Municipality, through the attorney of St. Yves, to supply water to the village. The municipality informed the attorney that they couldn't because we hold Palestinian ID cards. The pipe has been broken a few more times since then, and it was fixed each time.

By the last time that they broke the pipe, about three months ago, we were fed up with the problem, so we went to the al-Khas local council to obtain permission to hook up to their water network, which is linked to Mekorot [the Israeli governmental corporation]. The council consented, and since then, we have received water from them. So far, they have not broken the pipe, but I fear that they will do that when the fence goes up east of the village.

Lack of a sewage system

Lacking a sewage system, the village relies on cesspools, which are emptied by a pump and tanker. The blockage of the road to al-Khas prevents the cesspools from being emptied and removed from the village.

From the testimony of Jamal Sulaiman Muhammad Dir'awi, age 38, , married and father of two, head of Nu'man's village committee,


Two trucks, serving Nu'man, al-Khas, Shawawreh, and Dar Salah, remove the sewage and garbage. Whenever the army closes the road to al-Khas, the garbage accumulates in the streets and the cesspools fill up, and sometimes even overflow. When this happens, the stench is disgusting, and we get lots of mosquitoes and insects, which affects our health. The children, who have developed many stomach problems, suffer the most.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/030616_Difficulties_in_Numan.asp

[rokus2595]

Ok, i actually have to do work now. There is plenty of information relating to the Palestinian-Israel conflict. A good site is one where the above articles come from, and the following also has some pretty good information:

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky.html

now you can either say "What rokus is posting here is nothing but propaganda", which is pretty much what I believe comes out of the Israeli & US press releases. Fair enough. But i urge you to read from the sites mentioned above, and if you still believe that they spew nothing but lies, fine.......Yet i ask the following:

Who is more likely to be lying? the powerful or the weak in the conflict? the occupier (Israel) or the one being occupied? (palestine). It is obvious that the occupier (Israel) will lie so that it can continue justifying its occupation, and the occupied will lie because.........?

[SOG]

Ok, i actually have to do work now. There is plenty of information relating to the Palestinian-Israel conflict. A good site is one where the above articles come from, and the following also has some pretty good information:

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky.html

now you can either say "What rokus is posting here is nothing but propaganda", which is pretty much what I believe comes out of the Israeli & US press releases. Fair enough. But i urge you to read from the sites mentioned above, and if you still believe that they spew nothing but lies, fine.......Yet i ask the following:

Who is more likely to be lying? the powerful or the weak in the conflict? the occupier (Israel) or the one being occupied? (palestine). It is obvious that the occupier (Israel) will lie so that it can continue justifying its occupation, and the occupied will lie because.........?

well interestings posts,(i read near half) actually, i have no problem with what you posted at all, alot that i read sounded like realistic complaints/problems/grievances, but the problem is the pals are harboring and creating and supporting terrorists. youve got a long list of grievances with a pal government that is willing to do nothing about the terrorist orgs in its own country so a lot of the legal problems stem from one side doing something while the other does nothing?

its like watching terrorists and freedom fighters fight with the civilian population in the middle with the gov in the background half approving half doing nothing? i have to say if the pal government continues to do nothing thereby approving of the militant terror actions, then thier people need to retake thier country and put in someone who gives a damn because they sure as hell wont take israel.

so israel is making a "land grab" to build a defensive barrier because pal terrorists who hate the israeli race keep coming in and indiscreminately killing for years on end and the pal gov wont/cant lift a finger? or is the whole terrorist part and all the pal terrorist attacks also a propaganda lie for building the wall and making the land grab?

for being on the border and dealing with the cluster **** that is the pal gov and for putting up with terror non stop daily weekly yearly, i think the jews have show incredible restraint thus far and now that they seek means to a end after how many failed years of talks with a hack cracked gov that is led by a terrorist!?

IMO for putting up with unrelenting bull**** from the pals they can have all the ****in farmland or "grab land" they want. oh, we do this this and this to them, change the face of thier life and public by constant terror attacks, have forced them into a near military state, have not made any concerted crack downs on anything in our country, in some cases incite or approve of terror for how many decades, and the israeli's want to make build a defensive barrier and steal some farm land? how unfair! what is this world coming to!?

dont think israel is fair? if it was americas border we would have salted the farmlands, built mcdonalds and the pals would all be bitching about high colesteral and not being able to tie thier shoes. thats right, a fate worse than death, americanism! booohooo!

[SOG]

the following link might give everyone an idea or two as to why she was in Palestine and died there...

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/ForAJustPeace.pdf

lol, im sorry, that is so weak i almost died laughing.

i like where they compare pals next to israelis as being poor in two totally different economies and countries?

1st off, my friend lives in west virginia/maryland off of 400 hundred a month in a one bedroom studio. im supposed to cry for the pals when they make the same as him and live in a 3rd world country?

2nd, water consumtion per person? 18 gallons and that is bad? i thought it was near amazing for a third world country? i dont use near that a day! we here in california have water saving faucets on everything.

3rd, right to international travel? well gee, a terrorist harboring and supporting nation who constantly attacks its neighbor and we dont quite trust them on airlines? i dont know why......... and this was pre 911......

4th, us economic aid 30 million? to a country whose gov literally has had decade old ties to terrorists, will do nothing about them and in some cases support them and we give the pals 30 mil a year? im surprised i dont hear people bitching about us feeding a terror filled run amock anti US state. unbelivably generous of the US id say for "supporting its enemies" population, you know, the people who half approve otherwise they would have all gone bananas by now and routed the gov.

5th, unemployed rate? they make it sound so bad, they forget to tell you its nearly already that way!

unbelievable peace/plan slant on things.

[RavenW]

Dont worry Raven I support you... Its just people live in different realities and thats why some cant understand others way of thinking


That's all right, man. I guess some people don't get it until their own children become a target for terrorists...

Israel is doing a good job and G-d bless her.

Peace! :D

[Kitsune]

RavenW wrote:

Palestinians become terrorists through nurture and behavioural formation. As they grow up, elaborate system of kindergarden brainwashing make terrorists out of them.
Kinda like Hitler Youth.
It is a hate teaching, that what makes them who they are.




RavenW wrote:

But then I felt a relief that another terrorist’s sympathizer has left our planet. She’s gone for good. Maybe ariweiner and weedman will move in the same direction.



I hope in the future, we will spend more money on murder of such “Americans”.


I support the death of those “Americans”, who give aid to our enemy and provide moral and financial support to Arab terrorists.


I support the murder of those “Americans” who prevent and endanger our army, our troops and the army of our allies during the time of war.


I support death and destruction of those who play in “solidarity movements” with different terrorists scum around the globe.


It’s also very simple -- either you with us or against us. There are no neutrals in the war on terror.


I hope that all Palestinian’s, Saddam’s and Nazi’s sympathizers would go to hell.


Whether they are killed by cruise missiles, helicopter fire, D9 bulldozer, harsh interrogations in CIA camps or just plain old bullet from M1911, they are our enemies that are using cover of our citizenship and they should be destroyed.


I think in the time of war, in the war we are fighting right now, there must be absolute clarity about who belongs to which side and our goals in this war – a total and unconditional surrender to our forces, the complete and full destruction of the enemy.



Death to evil terrorists and their supporters!

“Don’t shoot… let them burn!” (c) Saving Private Ryan (American GI about German soldiers)




You are actually displaying quite a lot of hate yourself, RavenW. Could it be that you yourself are a bit brainwashed ?













No?












Are you sure?

[RavenW]

Kitsune I saw the face of the enemy. Did you?

[AirZone]

Kitsune I saw the face of the enemy. Did you? Uhh.. you mean you saw real combat? where if i may ask ? (just curious)

[RavenW]

RavenW wrote



While it is ultimately wrong to celebrate someone’s death on the principles of humanity, there is absolutely nothing wrong with feelings of relief caused by enemy’s death.




Personally, I think it is sick to celebrate anyone’s death because it is a sign of barbarity of that particular individual.



Looking in retrospective at C.’s death, I wish it would not happen, I wish that bulldozer’s driver would notice that stupid evil liar and Israeli security agents would capture her and escort her out of the country





Does it mean she should have died? Probably not.
Her death is sad (it was an accident) as any death in this world, but she was actually actively seeking it herself



If you think that I enjoy someone’s death, it’s not true. When I first heard of C.’s death it made me feel sad – such a waste of human life – what did she do with her life?





Quote:
Are they terrorists by birthright?


No. And noone implies this.




Furthermore, if you notice my posts, there is not a single place where I say that Palestinian Arabs are terrorists by their biology.

In fact, I make an extra effort to emphasize that while it is okay to say "damn Palestinian terrorists", it's utterly wrong to say "damn Palestinians".




If you mean "support for Arabs of West Bank and Gaza to live in the state of their own". Then you will be surprised how many Israelis support Palestinians.


In this sense, I also "support Palestinians".



I personally support a 3 state solution where Arabs of West Bank and Gaza would live in their own cantons and Jews of West Bank and Gaza would live in their own cantons.




That's why I am against any "evacuation" of people from that territory.
Whether you are Jew or Muslim Arab or Christian Arab, you have a right to live in your home as long as you don't commit acts of terror or provide support for terrorists.




In any way, "Palestinian" nation already exists de-facto.




It would be better for Palestinians themselves if they would be liberated and recovered from the bad start




They need help from Israelis and Americans to bring them back to their senses.




We must bring a positive change.





I hope that I was not harsh in my speech. I tried to put it plain and simple.




G-d bless us all and G-d bless America.




Is that what individual full of hate would say?





Are you sure?




oh, boy... how often people want to "fix" the reality, so it would fit to their own perception of the world.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/564_1086147096_olegapr02a.gif

Yeah, I am very hateful individual, a true aggressor....



could people stop twist the truth?

[RavenW]

Kitsune I saw the face of the enemy. Did you? Uhh.. you mean you saw real combat? where if i may ask ? (just curious)

No, I said I saw the face of the enemy.

When I was in Ukraine I had to fight in high school's locker room because I was a Jew.

No Jewish boy stood up to defend... so, I did. And my Russian and Ukrainian friends with me (talking by the way about who knows true good Europeans, most of my friends were.... and that 'shalom' piece of ****,who did not say a word - if person say he is a Jew, where he was during the fight).

Anyway, I know it does not constitute a real combat, since there were no knives or guns involved - only fists (I had once knife's under my neck, I grew up in rough neighbourhood :( ).
But it was last year of high school, it was not like we were little boys anyway.

The importance of the story - whoeve saw the face of the enemy, who ever found nazi swastika on his home, whoever fought for his beliefs will understand me... those who are theorize about it, still live in "theories"

I don't know many people I would go to combat with, but with my friends who were with me that day, I would.

Peace! :D

[Durandal]

I have to say that some of you are talking pretty bold words about a woman that was run over by a bulldozer.

She never raised a ahnd to harm anyone, just peacefully protested and made a lot of anti-US and Israel noise. She wasn't cutting heads off and she certainly was blowing up cafes.

But she is dead, and accidental or not died fighting...peacefully, for what she believed in.

Let it rest.

Oh, and I completely disagree with her politics...and did not "like" her...but...

If you are going to belittle the dead get her F*UCKING name right at least...

Its Rachel Corrie...

[RavenW]

RavenW wrote


If you think that I enjoy someone’s death, it’s not true. When I first heard of C.’s death it made me feel sad – such a waste of human life – what did she do with her life?

[SOG]

well yeah but you also said some pretty hatefull things about her which is why i was wondering about her in the 1st place and stuff she had done other than step in front of a bulldozer. she was linked, suedo linked to this this and this or accused of this and that, was she a terrorist or did she simply empathize and fight as a person protecting the people not the terrorist involved. they cant all be terorists? maybe im just not aware of her extracuricular activities.


...... rub my tummy.

[RavenW]

If you are going to belittle the dead get her F*UCKING name right at least...

Its Rachel Corrie...


oh! finally! I've been waiting for this already for 2 days!

When I started writing it, I was thinking changing it to her full name... then I thought... "nah, I let them be suddenly so 'concern' and 'worry 'with her full name". of course, how long would it take anyone to spell of the names of Jewish victims that died because of her support (little as it might be) to terrorists. But I was so sure that would be immidietely outpour of sympathy to the bitch, and people would be collecting her photos, and asking to put her full name, etc.

And this is the world!!!!... ta-da

We all spell the name of the bastard, but when it comes to Jewish children, we prefer to use the numbers

22 000 - Yugoslavia
5, 500 - Germany
12, 000 Hungary

- Dear Mufti of Jerusalem, would you like to receive them under your supervision?

- Nah, Adolf! Send them to Auswitz! By the way, I have receive 35, 000 marks from you, thank you. I send my nephew to you, so he can learn how to kill Jews properly.


.............


enough said.
World is what it is.

People are beautiful, the world stinks.

[RavenW]

Oh! here is another hatefull remark.

I hope one day we will be having this conversation about her role model - Yasser Arafat!

[Durandal]

oh! finally! I've been waiting for this already for 2 days!


When I started writing it, I was thinking changing it to her full name... then I thought... "nah, I let them be suddenly so 'concern' and 'worry 'with her full name". of course, how long would it take anyone to spell of the names of Jewish victims that died because of her support (little as it might be) to terrorists.

Huh? Who cares if you abbreviate her name. You typed this:


It’s not like I’m glad and celebrating that Palestinian supporter Rachel Corrin died

...then was repeated by several others...even one that supports her "cause". Her name is not Corrin. You try to look up information about her and you can't...because its not Corrin its Corrie.



We all spell the name of the bastard, but when it comes to Jewish children, we prefer to use the numbers

22 000 - Yugoslavia
5, 500 - Germany
12, 000 Hungary

This is such a goddamn "strawman" argument. Spelling a name correctly so you do not look like an idiot has nothing to do with the death of Jewish children.

Don't use this an argument FOR ignorance.

[Kitsune]

@RavenW:

Let me just remind you:


No one fights for evil. Everyone fights for the good cause. Have you read the articles posted here about the Waffen SS, especially about the division "Hitlerjugend"? Have you thought about where there willingness to die came from? What ultimately fires fascism?

They believed to fight for the good cause. Great Britain and France had declared war on Germany. The Sovietunion was on the verge of attacking Germany and had to be stopped. The USA supported Germanies enemies from the start. And the Jews conspired and plotted from within, to bring down what is good and just...
That is what they believed.
This firm belief to know what is good and what is evil, is the first ingredient.

The second one is this: There must be no quarter given to evil.
For evil there must be no compassion. No mercy. Therefore enemy POWs are better killed: they fought for evil. It comes down to this:

It’s also very simple -- either you with us or against us.
Very simple.

But life isn't simple. Only Fascims makes people believe it would be. You yourself are undeniable good. Therefore your enemy is evil. And now you may concentrate all your HATE on your enemy. Kill him. Tear him apart. Crush him utterly. Because evil has to be destroyed without mercy.

I think in the time of war, in the war we are fighting right now, there must be absolute clarity about who belongs to which side and our goals in this war – a total and unconditional surrender to our forces, the complete and full destruction of the enemy.


Palestinians see themselves as fighters for freedom. The Israelis are occupying their country for decades. And they show NO intend to leave. (Interesting that you voiced your support for an palestinian state...you know that Sharons Likud party flatly rejects ANY such state "west of the jordan", not because of terrorism but principally?) THEIR belief is that they are on the good side...the Israelis are evil. Therefore it is a just war. They target women and children of their enemy? So did the USAAF during WWII (e.g. Hiroshima, Nagasaki...160.000 civilians dead. All for the cause of good of course).




What is good and what is evil? GOD may know for sure. We are only human, we do not. Therefore we should show compassion and mercy whenever possible, not even but especially to our enemy. As HE told us to do. Actually it is hard as it is. Because we humans are full of hate. So there is usually no need to call for more severity in a conflict.
Like you essentially did.
And i think it was a wrong thing to do.




Just some thoughts.

[RavenW]

Don't use this an argument FOR ignorance.


and it's not.
I used her name from the original post of flamer named "front", who started to idolize her in the first place.

Corrie or Corrin, she is gone for good. I don't celebrate or find joy from it, that would be just plain sick... I find a relief that a friend of my enemy is gone.

The keyword of this post: RELIEF...

do you understand difference between relief and joy?

When Timothy McVeigh died, I felt relief. So goes for HAMAS's Yassin.

Hopefully John Walker will join them.

Anyway, I'm going out, It is a good day outside. It's shame to be at home with such a weather... and I got gym in the evening.

Guys (off top), don't live your life next to the screen! Enjoy it fully outside of Internet form and don't make such stupid life decisions as C.

Peace! :D

RavenW just left the building. "Thank You! Thank You very much!" woot :oops: