Ever Operate an Armoured Vehicle belonging to another nation?

[Tanker31B]

Ride, gunner, operator..What did you think in comparison to your Vehicle.

My first was just a detailed look of a T72E we bought from East Germany.
They where stripped for the trip back to Canada. The sights where out because of the Radiation potential of the sight..I imagine small, however as I looked around I noticed a HEAT round on the wall! Nice job worrying about the sight!
The look on the Capts face... I was a young Trooper.

The gunners hole? Feet straight forward?

T72 was small inside.

The Leopard1 was a house.

The M60 is an apartment building!

The T72a drivers hole so frigin small, my dad use to call me small!

Air tanks to start it, neat idea! How did it work? Well?

M60...big, slow, and hard to watch them pull packs beside us. (leopards 30 to 45 minutes) I am sure someone out there did it in 5 seconds..:roll:

The Challenger 1...I was lost in the gunners hole..the commander was trying to get me to traverse the turret, needless to say I didnt see the switch on the pipe for a handle. (like I was going to start flicking switches)

The Park brake, oh my....

I did enjoy the armour protection!

Scimitar..

The tranny shifting was knock out your teeth brutal!

The sight was like our LAV, but better. (If I recall the aiming point moved when you lased?) ours you relay on the aiming point with the range.

Cannon, interesting. 3 round clips.

Very hard to get a good spot to sit.


In the end I have a huge respect for some of the personal that operate some of these vehicles. I cant imagine spending 17 hr day in the gunners hole of a T72, or Scimitar. Some people would think, "what do you expect out of a vehicle for comfort?"

Being from Canada...a heater! (-49C Monday with the wind)

I think the Leopard 1 was a cadillac for its time frame. Even today its the gift that still gives.

[Jippo]

Hehe, that's a great post!

I never thought T-72 gunner was crammed, it's pretty much equal to TC's spot. On the other hand drivers pos is exceptionally crammed and unergonomic for bigger guys. Seeing the instruments whilst driving isn't easy. Air start works great normally, and if it for reason or another doesn't at an occasion there is still the batteries.

I haven't used the following, but climbed a bit on and in them:

I was surprised on how similar Leo2 was to 72. Of course everything is different, but somehow I would have though it was somehow another planet or something. I thought the gunner/TC tandem layout is a bit gay (yeah I know sounds strange) since I was used to seeing him on the other side of the breech. Must be good for communication though, can kick or punch him if he can't hear you. And one has to wonder how people can afford to put a loader in a tank, small family could live in that space. And no gun for TC sucks. Also when in a forest it is often better for the TC to be unbuttoned: in Leo he's really exposed & without protection.

CV90 looks great, really advanced and clean layout inside. Compared to MT-LBv or BMP it's indeed like Cadillac. What I've seen about the gun and aiming system it is rather exceptional vehicle. Also for the passengers: lot of room and extra comfortable folding seats.

[IDF_TANKER]

My tank was Magach-7 (basically, M60 hull with M48 turret). The turret is small, but ok. A tall loader in full battle rattle will have problem squeezing himself behind the gun guard(/shield?). Gunner cell is a bit small, but ok. Driver has the most spacious cell(/hole?).

I was inside T62 (old Tirans they bring to fire range as targets). I did not understand how a guy of normal height can operate in this tank. I'm 1.82, and I couldn't stand in the loader's hole.

Magach-6B (upgraded M-60) was pretty roomy.

The most roomy tank I was in was Merkava3. The driver's hole is a bit narrow because of the front engine, but inside the hull/turret is like a small appartment. They also have this back hallway in which a creaw member can sleep. And when you take out part of the tank's ammo you can place about 6+ infantry guys there.

[Tanker31B]

Hehe, that's a great post!

I never thought T-72 gunner was crammed, it's pretty much equal to TC's spot. On the other hand drivers pos is exceptionally crammed and unergonomic for bigger guys. Seeing the instruments whilst driving isn't easy. Air start works great normally, and if it for reason or another doesn't at an occasion there is still the batteries.

I haven't used the following, but climbed a bit on and in them:

I was surprised on how similar Leo2 was to 72. Of course everything is different, but somehow I would have though it was somehow another planet or something. I thought the gunner/TC tandem layout is a bit gay (yeah I know sounds strange) since I was used to seeing him on the other side of the breech. Must be good for communication though, can kick or punch him if he can't hear you. And one has to wonder how people can afford to put a loader in a tank, small family could live in that space. And no gun for TC sucks. Also when in a forest it is often better for the TC to be unbuttoned: in Leo he's really exposed & without protection.

CV90 looks great, really advanced and clean layout inside. Compared to MT-LBv or BMP it's indeed like Cadillac. What I've seen about the gun and aiming system it is rather exceptional vehicle. Also for the passengers: lot of room and extra comfortable folding seats.


LOL kick and punch the gunner, oh yah. seen that a few times. all in good fun. While gunning for a major he would lose it during an attack(training) He would Yell scream, curse us, after we punched through the postion he would be all calm.

Is it normal to start the T72 with the air system? gunner?:bash:lol

[LineDoggie]

Does a BMP-1 Count?

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/92a46a32.jpg

Seemed like a rolling deathtrap, too small for my taste, though slightly better than an MT-LB

[Hellfish]

I drove a BMP1 too, and rode in the commander's hatch (and in back) at NTC. Once was enough.

[Don Cossack]

For the most part BMPs were rolling deathtraps. The armor is paper thin on the bottom, so a single shaped charge could turn everything inside into ground beef. That's why you can always see everyone but the crew riding on top in photos of it. Best to take your chances with the bullets rather than get locked inside without any way to escape.

[gaijinsamurai]

During Operation Desert Storm, I had the opportunity to play around inside BMPs, BTRs, and various Soviet tanks (T-55, T-62, T-64). I didn't get to drive any of them, and only played around with the turrets and guns. My main impression was that I felt bad for any armored crewman or member of a motorized rifle unit who had to be stuck inside one of those things for extended periods of time.

[Jippo]

Is it normal to start the T72 with the air system? gunner?:bash:lol

Yeah, pressurised air is the preferred method, batteries are the backup.

[dave81]

I got to play with the joystick-operated .50 cal on an Australian ASLAV (their version of our Strykers). It was like playing a video game: Just put the target in the crosshairs on your monitor (zoom in with the camera if necessary), and shoot.

[Hellfish]

I got to play with the joystick-operated .50 cal on an Australian ASLAV (their version of our Strykers). It was like playing a video game: Just put the target in the crosshairs on your monitor (zoom in with the camera if necessary), and shoot.

Isn't that the same weapon system as a Stryker?

[Crewdog]

Does sitting in the drivers seat making engine noises while it is tucked in the belly of my airplane count? ;)

[scttgillies]

During Op Granby (thats Desert storm), I was tasked to work with REME helping to recover old workable iraqi veh. worst drive MTLB, Best drive BTR 60PB, Most fun drive, 2S1. Loved it all. BMP rated at just above MTLB. But the armour was that thin we punched holes in it with the "General".

[trunk_munkey28]

During Op Granby (thats Desert storm), I was tasked to work with REME helping to recover old workable iraqi veh. worst drive MTLB, Best drive BTR 60PB, Most fun drive, 2S1. Loved it all. BMP rated at just above MTLB. But the armour was that thin we punched holes in it with the "General".
General?
As in General Purpose Machine Gun?

That's eff'n awesome.

[dave81]

Isn't that the same weapon system as a Stryker?
I don't know, I've never been in one. In Iraq my company used the M1117 ASV, and the big guns were hand-cranked up and down, left and right, World War 2 style. It also has electric left and right rotation, but the fact that there were hand cranks at all kind of surprised me. Also, the sights are glass prisms with reticles, not flatscreen monitors.

[trunk_munkey28]

I don't know, I've never been in one. In Iraq my company used the M1117 ASV, and the big guns were hand-cranked up and down, left and right, World War 2 style. It also has electric left and right rotation, but the fact that there were hand cranks at all kind of surprised me. Also, the sights are glass prisms with reticles, not flatscreen monitors.

Sounds like th Cadillac Gage 1 Meter Turret thats on some of our TLAVS and used to be on the Grizzly. Power traverse, manual elevation.

[Pete031]

Isn't that the same weapon system as a Stryker?

I think the AUSLAV has a 25mm on it.... Unless there are more versions???

[James]

I operated the turret on a CF LAV-25 (I don't kow what they're actually called, but this was like a USMC LAV-25 on roids) on a range one day. It was pretty cool. That gun is AMAZING.

[Pete031]

Did it have a large troop compartment? Or was it exactly like the LAV 25?

If it was larger, then it was a LAV 3.

[James]

Did it have a large troop compartment? Or was it exactly like the LAV 25?

If it was larger, then it was a LAV 3.

It had 8 wheels, a small compartment in the back that looked like it could hold about 4 infantry, and a turret on top. The turret had 2 seats, side by side, and a 25mm gun. It seemed about the same size as a LAV 25 but it looked more modern if that makes sense... more armor and accoutrements on the outside.

[Pete031]

It had 8 wheels, a small compartment in the back that looked like it could hold about 4 infantry, and a turret on top. The turret had 2 seats, side by side, and a 25mm gun. It seemed about the same size as a LAV 25 but it looked more modern if that makes sense... more armor and accoutrements on the outside.

The LAV3 can seat 7 in the back or so it claims.... The turret is the same in the LAV 25, coyote and LAV3. The coyote, (Lav 25) seats 1 to 2 in the back and is full of surveillence gear.
I'm guessing LAV 3

[James]

I just found it - it's the LAV III. It seemed pretty well set up.

[Pete031]

Yup. they are great vehicles.

[Tanker31B]

The LAV3 can seat 7 in the back or so it claims.... The turret is the same in the LAV 25, coyote and LAV3. The coyote, (Lav 25) seats 1 to 2 in the back and is full of surveillence gear.
I'm guessing LAV 3

Coyote can seat 4 with rucks....however only if the Brit Major puts his foot on the door and shoves his Highlanders in. ( I was the crew commander, we were raiding a radar site, the helo couldnt land so he landed near me and My Coyote became an APC. Looked more like a
tactical withdrawal. lol, the infantry dismounted after a few minutes my gunner looks at me, " is someone in the surv operators hole? " I told him to check and sure enough, the Brits had left a guy stuck on the inside of our door! his ruck was stuck!
We quickly released him. Dont they have some sort of fire team partner? lol

Normally the coyote seats one, The Lav, you can get out of your turret on the inside and talk with the boys in the back...Big ( I am sure in theatre the boys have them so loaded you may not be able to do that.) Not that you should do that.

The Brake and gas pedal move towards the driver on the LAVs. High tech cadillac.

[Tanker31B]

We had a guy get killed on a coyote. He was in his drivers hole leaning over the seat, his foot or something hit the seat lever that raised and lowers the seat..he was pinned by the throat to the roof.

We warned them about that during testing, now we have a safety...:bash:

[redhawk_six]

I don't know, I've never been in one. In Iraq my company used the M1117 ASV, and the big guns were hand-cranked up and down, left and right, World War 2 style. It also has electric left and right rotation, but the fact that there were hand cranks at all kind of surprised me. Also, the sights are glass prisms with reticles, not flatscreen monitors.

The turrets on the 1117's seem to be the AAV-7 turret. 40mm Mk 19 and a .50, and not much room for anything else, right? If that's the case, we have the same turret on our prototype lav at work. I like the hand crank, means the turret can still be operated even if you lose power.


I just found it - it's the LAV III. It seemed pretty well set up.

The Lav III is very much like the stryker, with an upgraded Lav II (25) turret mounted. I LOVE LAV's. Be it the LAV III or LAV II. Crewing a LAV is why I changed my plans and now plan to go armoured recce when I sign up.

[redhawk_six]

damn, double post

[dave81]

We had a guy get killed on a coyote. He was in his drivers hole leaning over the seat, his foot or something hit the seat lever that raised and lowers the seat..he was pinned by the throat to the roof.
2 or 3 of our ASVs had a similar problem, but not because of operator error. It was kind of scary, if you adjusted the driver's seat to go up or down, it would stay in position...usually. Occasionally a few minutes afterwards they would randomly begin raising themselves all the way up, pinning the driver's head to the roof, making you twist your body sideways so as not to break your own neck, then you'd have to rely on your buddy to lower your seat for you. Not very safe if it happens while driving. One time I was riding shotgun and my driver had no idea that the seats would do that, and I had to open his hatch really quickly for his head to pop out of the top because the lever wasn't responding. Luckily no one died from it though, at least not while I was there.

[GazB]

I got to play with the joystick-operated .50 cal on an Australian ASLAV (their version of our Strykers). It was like playing a video game: Just put the target in the crosshairs on your monitor (zoom in with the camera if necessary), and shoot.

My Nephew commands a LAV III and he told me about what it is like to use the 25mm gun. It is fully stabilised and it has new thermal imager sights. You just put the crosshair on stuff and squeese the trigger and it goes away.
He gave me three 25mm shells in the link it uses. Not live rounds of course. The dwarf even a 50 calibre round and make 308 look tiny. :)

BTW the compressed air starting system in the T-72 is to ensure it starts all year round. In low temperatures in some places in Russia the life of a brand new battery fully charged is about 10 minutes. With a compressed air start you can always start the engine no matter how cold the tank gets.

[Jippo]

True, but the tank still needs electricity to warm up the tank with the auxialiary heater before start. The heater btw. works like your average car heaters (we even used to call it "Webasto"):

http://www.webastoshowroom.com/blueheat/how_blueheat_works.htm

Engine may easily be damaged if it is truly cold started. Oils it uses are not your latest brand winter oils etc...

[kopema]

My first was just a detailed look of a T72E we bought from East Germany. They where stripped for the trip back to Canada.

...The T72a drivers hole so frigin small, my dad use to call me small!

The Russians had a very strict maximum height limitation for tank crews. I always assumed that any country that uses Russian-built tanks would have to adopt a similar policy.

[Jippo]

That's a urban legend.

[Tanker31B]

The Russians had a very strict maximum height limitation for tank crews. I always assumed that any country that uses Russian-built tanks would have to adopt a similar policy.


I have heard of this before, Urban legend or not, when I sat in the drivers hole my knees hit the front Armour. I am 5 9 with short legs.

Leopard 1 note. When driving the leopard one, we would hook our foot under the spare episcope holder, so the vehicle would would be going full boar in a race..my buddy knocked himself out and the tank went quit a way before the turret could swing to the side and the gunner could wake him up. (jumped a road) :bash:

[GazB]

That's a urban legend.

I doubt they line them all up and take the shortest as drivers, but then someone like me that is comfortably over 6ft would probably not be given the job... thank goodness.

The advantages of haveing cramped and thinly armoured vehicles is that your troops don't develop the mentality of hiding in their boxes in combat.

BTW regarding heating vehicles, have seen photos from Siberia where fires are built under truck engines to warm them up before trying to start them. Some parts become very brittle at cold temperatures and would shatter if you simply tried to start the engine. I would suspect some sort of preheating of tank engines in the same situation. Have heard they boil the cooling fluid and put it in the tank and then attempt to start it.
If you had to rely on the battery as soon as its temp dropped below -10 or so within a few minutes it would be flat.

[Jippo]

Have heard they boil the cooling fluid and put it in the tank and then attempt to start it.
If you had to rely on the battery as soon as its temp dropped below -10 or so within a few minutes it would be flat.

There is a dedicated heater under the TC's seat. It is used to warm the battlespace (or what ever that is in english) when the engine is running with hot cooling liquid. When the engine is cold it heats up the cold liquid with a diesel burner thus warming up the engine when the liquid is circulated. The heater and related pumps require electricity to operate.

And there is no attempts to start the engines. Warm it up and start it up, first try. Up north people have to operate tanks below freezing temperatures daily every winter. Tank would be worthless if every morning the company CO would need to count how many tanks he got started. They all need to be up and running without dodgy gimmicks like fires and water kettles.

[GazB]

There is a dedicated heater under the TC's seat. It is used to warm the battlespace (or what ever that is in english) when the engine is running with hot cooling liquid. When the engine is cold it heats up the cold liquid with a diesel burner thus warming up the engine when the liquid is circulated. The heater and related pumps require electricity to operate.So your unit has just been sent to Oymyakon and you left the tank out overnight.
You go out this morning... the temperature today was -54 Degrees C. I am therefore guessing that you took the batteries inside with you to keep warm because no battery will survive that. Or did you just leave the engine running?

During WWII with aircraft they used to boil the engine cooling oil in the aircraft that used oil cooled engines before they put it in and started the engines. No hangars for those planes.

[Jippo]

You go out this morning... the temperature today was -54 Degrees C. I am therefore guessing that you took the batteries inside with you to keep warm because no battery will survive that. Or did you just leave the engine running?


Batteries weight a lot (10-20kg each [estimate]), they are half a meter long, they not very easily accessed and there are four of them. NO you do not take them out daily.

Fully charged batteries can take -70 and even more. When it gets that cold, I don't think there will be any fighting, just surviving. We had temperatures below -20C in my time, and that didn't cause any problems with the machines. People will start to suffer from cold tools etc though.

[GazB]

Fully charged batteries can take -70 and even more. When it gets that cold, I don't think there will be any fighting, just surviving. We had temperatures below -20C in my time, and that didn't cause any problems with the machines. People will start to suffer from cold tools etc though.

So do you think it is the type of batteries or do the batteries have built in heaters or are chemically protected from the cold. They sound rather bigger than I had expected... I mean a Diesel engine doesn't use spark plug ignition like a petrol engine, so the batteries are there to preheat the Diesel to start the engine, but the T-72 uses compressed air for starting as you mentioned.

BTW thanks for the details. Reading from a book is one thing but actually talking to someone who has used it is completely on a different level.

[Jippo]

The ability of the batteries to manage with cold depends on the battery fluid and the charge battery has. Good normal car battery takes -70C without freezing. They just give less energy out when cold.

Batteries run the heater that pumps the engine coolant through the heater. Heater works like Webasto (check the link above) and heats coolant by burning diesel in small combustion chamber. Heated coolant is circulated back through the engines as long as it takes to get the engines warmed up to the start up temperature.

Batteries also run the fuel pumps and engine oil pumps which are naturally needed for the engine start up as so to get the engine fed and lubricated before start. All this takes some electrical energy, but compared to the strain of starting engines it is really miniscule.

[Tanker31B]

In ref to the batteries, the amount required not only helps start the tank but, also while sitting in a postion you may be switched off to save fuel, listen for the enemy, while listening to the radios and running the coolant heater. The gunnery system will be on as well. And maybe using the boiling vessel to cook some food.
Also we have had to monitor the radios all night. A tank being started in the middle of a hide is a bad thing, however it happened.

On a Stuart tank I was helping rebuild there is a small single cylinder motor(it was a Harley Davidson), it may have be used to supply power the same way. (not sure)

Last I heard it was an idea for the American M1. Not sure if they did or not. The plan was to help them save fuel.

[Jippo]

Both new model Leo 2's and Abrams' have such auxiliary power units as far as I know.

[Tanker31B]

I just looked at your profile to check some of your threads.

I like the one with the pictures of the interior of the t72.

I see you use air to clean your prism..i think you called it that. On the Leopard one it had..little wipers..a pain in the butt. They also had a system to squirt water on them. It really didnt work that well, if it did, it was because every chance you got, you fixed, adjusted, unplugged..Not a good system. Many drivers, including myself, would pop out the Prism (we call them episcopes) and wipe them and pop them back in while on the move. It usually ment a lap of mud.

One thing a turret with more room allowed was the repair man, technician had room to move. We helped a lot.

How long to remove and replace a engine?

[GazB]

Last I heard it was an idea for the American M1. Not sure if they did or not. The plan was to help them save fuel.The T-80 has a gas turbine generator to power all the electronics while the main engine is off. The IR signature of the small generator is a fraction of the IR signature of the main engine and it also saves a lot of fuel. Command versions of Soviet tanks also often have APUs to power all the extra radios and equipment carried.

Have seen the generator for the M1 Abrams in desert storm. It is a huge external box that sits on the back of the tank when in use. They might have since added an internal model because the old system was large and bulky... a bit like the systems they use to start some aircraft.

BTW thanks Jippo for the info. :)

[Chiptox]

On a Stuart tank I was helping rebuild there is a small single cylinder motor(it was a Harley Davidson), it may have be used to supply power the same way. (not sure)
Yup. Stuarts and Shermans had small auxillary engines to provide power when parked.


Also, wouldn't you still need electrical power to start a modern diesel engine? Air starters were the norm back in the old Detroit 6V53 mechanical-injection days, but now?

[Jii]

Drove a Danish M113 once. Hella fun and really easy to drive. But I don't really have any comparison, since it was the only tracked armoured vehicle I ever drove. Most of my armoured driving has been with XA-180/185's...

[Jippo]

I see you use air to clean your prism..i think you called it that. On the Leopard one it had..little wipers..a pain in the butt. They also had a system to squirt water on them. It really didnt work that well, ...

How long to remove and replace a engine?

I guess the the cleaning system worked all right, at least I never heard anyone resorting in pulling it in whilst driving. :) Can't remember any problems with it.

Engine replacement is something we never did. I guess it would be a long, long job to do... It isn't exactly modular component like in more modern vehicles. One thing Russians didn't really care was ease of maintenance on that level.