Turkish intellectuals issue apology to Armenians

[chris450]

Turkish intellectuals issue apology to Armenians

ANKARA, Turkey — A group of about 200 Turkish intellectuals on Monday issued an apology on the Internet for the World War I-era massacres of Armenians in Turkey.


The group of prominent academics, journalists, writers and artists avoided using the contentious term "genocide" in the apology, using the less explosive "Great Catastrophe" instead.


"My conscience does not accept that (we) remain insensitive toward and deny the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected in 1915," read the apology. "I reject this injustice, share in the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers, and apologize to them."

The apology is a sign that many in Turkey are ready to break a long-held taboo against acknowledging Turkish culpability for the deaths.
Historians estimate that, in the last days of the Ottoman Empire, up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks in what is widely regarded as the first genocide of the 20th century. Armenians have long pushed for the deaths to be recognized as genocide.


While Turkey does not deny that many died in that era, the country has rejected the term genocide, saying the death toll is inflated and the deaths resulted from civil unrest during the Ottoman Empire's collapse.
Nearly 2,500 members of the public also signed the online apology, giving their support to the intellectuals.


Nobel Prize-winning author Orhan Pamuk was prosecuted after he commented on the mass killings in 2005. Hrant Dink, an ethnic Armenian journalist was shot outside his Istanbul office in 2007, following his prosecution for comments he made about the killings of Armenians.
Turkish nationalists have criticized the online apology and on Monday a group of some 60 retired Turkish diplomats described the move "as unfair, wrong and unfavorable to national interests."


"Such an incorrect and one-sided attempt would mean disrespecting our history," the diplomats said.


Devlet Bahceli, the leader of the Nationalist Action Party said: "No one has the right to insult our ancestors, to present them as criminals and to ask for an apology."
By late Monday, there were no public threats of legal action over the petition.

"Many in Turkey today, in good faith, believe that nothing happened to the Armenians. For many years, the official line has been that this was a secondary event that occurred in the conditions of World War I. But the truth is not so," Cengiz Aktar, a professor at Istanbul's Bahcesehir University and one of the petition's organizers told Vatan newspaper in an interview.


"It is a voice from the conscience. Those who want to apologize can, those who don't want to don't have to," he said.
Gila Benmayor, a journalist and columnist for Turkey's mass-circulation Hurriyet newspaper said she signed the petition because she believes "the time has come for change."
"Some things need to spoken, need to be discussed and expressed in an open way," she told The Associated Press.
She said she did not hesitate to sign the petition because the wording was not controversial.
"The words were carefully chosen so as not to upset any side," she said. "We are not betraying anyone. We are merely telling the Armenians that we share their grief."


The apology comes at a time when Turkey and Armenia have taken steps toward repairing ties. The two neighbors have no diplomatic relations and their shared border has been closed since 1993, when Turkey protested Armenia's occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh. Turkey backs Azerbaijan's claims to the disputed region, which has a high number of ethnic Armenian residents but is located within Azerbaijan's borders.
In September, however, President Abdullah Gul became the first Turkish leader to visit Armenia, where he and Armenian President Serge Sarkisian watched their countries' football teams play a World Cup qualifying match.



http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20081215/EU.Turkey.Armenians/

[Karaahmetoglu]

The idea of recognizing genocides is so that your people learn from them. Turkey is not going to commit genocides today or in the future, but Armenia in modern times has committed a well documented genocide against the Azeris in Karabakh. How much of the world barks at Armenia over that one?

[Clearday-TRForce]

I personally share in the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers, and apologize to them too for the massacres.

We have shared a common history as 1000 year. I hope they will apologize to us for some of their betrayals (Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies) against Ottoman Empire at the WW1 as citizens of same empire and the massacres-atrocities against Turkish citizens and also recent Karabagh Azeri Turks.

Note: it is very interestingly that you always want to see same kind of stuff about Turks and their so-called crimes. But I do not see any other mass massacres,genocides in the MP.net forum by same persons for any other great lists and I will not give you a huge list of it to remind your mind. It looks a great "hypocrisy".

I very much hope that you desire to look for reality in some orginal documents of Ottoman State too;

- Massacre of prisoners and Muslim population in the
neighborhood of Kars and Ardahan
19 R. 1333 (6. III. 1915)
- Massacre perpetrated by the Russians against Muslim
population in Van
2 Ş. 1334 (4. VI. 1916)
- Massacre and atrocities perpetrated by Armenians
and Russians
3 Ş. 1334 (5. VI. 1916)
- Atrocities committed by the Armenians and Russians against Muslims in Trabzon and in the neighborhood of Van
12 Ş. 1334 (14. VI. 1916)- Massacre Committed in Bitlis and Van by the Russians
and Armenian bandits
15 Ş. 1334 (17. VI. 1916)
- Atrocities committed by the Russians and Armenians in the village of Aşnak of the Township of Reşadiye in Van
16 Ş. 1334 (18. VI. 1916)
- Armenians and Russians
in the neigborhoods of Van
28 Ş. 1334 (30. VI. 1916)
- Atrocities perpetrated by the Massacre of Muslim population during the occupation of Van and Bitlis
29 Ş. 1334 (1. VII. 1916)
- Atrocities perpetrated by Armenians and Russians
against Muslims in Bitlis and Trabzon
5 N. 1334 (6. VII. 1916)
- Testimonies of those who escaped the atrocities perpetrated by the Armenians and Russians in Van and Bayezit
15 N. 1334 (16. VII. 1916)
- Massacres perpetrated by the Russians and Armenians
10 N. 1334 (11. VII. 1916)
- Massacre perpetrated by the Armenians and Russians
in the neighborhood of Hizan
14 N. 1334 (15. VII. 1916)
- Massacre perpetrated by the Armenian committees
and Russians in Van
19 N. 1334 (20. VII. 1916)
- Massacres perpetrated by Armenian bandits
and Russians against Muslims population
in Bitlis and its neighborhood
27 L. 1334 (27. VIII. 1916)
- Massacre committed by the Russians and Armenians in Van
28 Za. 1334 (26. IX. 1916)
- Atrocities perpetrated by Armenians bandits landed
by the Russian fleet on the shores of Terme
3. I. 1917
- Atrocities perpetrated by Armenians in the
neighborhood of Kilis
24 Ca. 1337 (25. II. 1919)
- Atrocities committed by the Armenians serving in the
French Units in Adana and its neighborhood
8 C. 1337 (11. III. 1919)
- Cruelties inflicted on Muslims in the neighborhood of
Erzurum and what necessary measures should be
taken to fight it out
24 N. 1337 (23. VI. 1919)
- Cruelties inflicted by Armenians, Greeks and Georgians in Batum, Kars and Ardahan and its neighborhood
8 L. 1337 (7. VII. 1919)
- In the neighborhood of Kars Muslims had been massacred, inflicted cruelties, oppressed and their homes pillaged by Armenians
8 L. 1337 (7. VII. 1919)
- Atrocities perpetrated in Trabzon, Kars and Nahcıvan
9 L. 1337 (8. VII. 1919)
- Information of the British representative Ravlinson of the massacres perpetrated by Armenians in Kağızman, Mescidli and Karakurt
9 L. 1337 (8 VII. 1919)
- Massacre perpetrated by Armenians in the neighborhood
of Kağızman, Karakurt, Sarıkamış and Akçakale
10 L. 1337 (9. VII. 1919)
- Ferocious Mass Killings Perpetrated by Armenians Against Muslim Population in the Neighborhoods
of Nahçıvan, Kağızman and Şarol
4 Za. 1337 (I. VIII. 1919)
- Atrocities Committed by Armenians In Villages In The Neighborhood of Kars and Sarıkamış
l6 Za. l337 (l3. VIII. l9l9)
- Massacre Perpetrated by Armenians in the Villages of Sekman, Ardı, Kepenek, Harçlı, Penaduz and Todaviran
18 Za. 1337 (15. VIII. 1919)
- Atrocities committed against Muslim villages in the vicinity of Karaurgan and Allahuekber
19 Z. 1337 (15. IX. 1919)


I also advise you (chris the same like thread opener) to read a book of Dr. Georgios Nakratzas' book: Asia Minor and the Ethnic Origins of the Refugees: The Greek Imperialist Policy of 1922 and the Asia Minor Catastrophe, in the book, it is finely explained an act of genocide perpetrated by the Greek army against the entire Turkish population (innocent citizens,woman,children...) of the city of Aydin. I hope everybody will apologize from everybody...


Last Note: Dear Mods, please look close the same kind of thread for approaching an end of cinema.



Best regards,
CDTRF

[chris450]

CDTRF thanks for the suggestion but im not into fiction really..This is also a good read ,just finished it (it received the Minnesota Book Award in 2007) and it also related to the topic at hand

writen by Taner Akcam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#Legal_disputes)

A Shameful Act-The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility
http://us.macmillan.com/ashamefulact

http://media.us.macmillan.com/jackets/Tilted/9780805086652.jpg



Turkish PM says apology campaign to Armenians unacceptable

It is unacceptable to affirm support to the recent internet campaign launched to issue a public apology to Armenians, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan told reporters on Wednesday. The Foreign Ministry said the issue is highly sensitive for them. (UPDATED)

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/2175/6992175.jpg Around 200 Turkish academics, writers and journalists launched a website issuing an apology to the Armenians regarding the 1915 incidents and calling for people to sign on in support.
The efforts of the intellectuals drew fierce reaction in Turkey.
"I neither accept nor support this campaign. We did not commit a crime, therefore we do not need to apologize," Erdogan said, adding the issue is still being discussed by historians.
He said such initiatives only reverse the positive steps taken by Turkey.
Armenia, with the backing of the diaspora, claims up to 1.5 million of their kin were slaughtered in orchestrated killings in 1915.Turkey rejects the claims saying that 300,000 Armenians, along with at least as many Turks, died in civil strife that emerged when Armenians took up arms, backed by Russia, for independence in eastern Anatolia.
Turkey has opened an air corridor to the land-locked country and renovated a historic Armenian church, while opening its archives to researchers to study incidents.
The issue remains unsolved as Armenia drags its feet on accepting Turkey's proposal to form an independent commission to investigate the claims.
A spokesman from the Turkish Foreign Ministry said the issue is highly sensitive for the ministry, reminding that many bureaucrats were victimized by Armenian terror organizations in the past.
Burak Ozugergin said the ministry does not support reacting to this move and that it did not urge the retired diplomats and ambassadors, who said Monday the campaign is "unfair, wrong and unfavorable for the national interests”, to respond.
Ozugergin said Turkey's stance on the 1915 incidents was well known by everybody, adding people should be able to comfortably discuss all issues in Turkey.
"However our foreign policy is not so flimsy as to shift as a result of daily debates. We will continue to act on principles," he said.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10587736.asp?gid=244

[kvk1]

The apology campaign for Armenians is a joke

At last I am relieved. Peter Gabriel, a singer I enjoyed very much during his "Genesis" days, but whose ethnic obsession I find it difficult to understand, has joined the campaign "to apologize to Armenians".

He apologizes on behalf of us, "Turks", to the Armenians for the bad things that "we Turks" did to the Armenians.

I was considering whether to join the campaign or not. I was relieved when I read the news about Gabriel.

Since he apologizes to the Armenians on our behalf, Turks, then I apologize to the Indians, the Pakistanis and to the indigenous people of former colonies in the Far East on behalf of the "Brits".

For the bad things that "those Brits" did to these people.

The formula for the historic solution of the Armenian issue has been found. People from different countries apologize to the people of some other country for the bad things that another country did to them.

In addition the country's parliaments have been taking over the authority of "rewriting history" or vice a versa for the bad things that one country did to some other nation.

In that case, for us, as Turks there is no problem. As for the Armenians; we now have a chance to solve this problem via proxies.

* * *
Let's leave aside the amusing aspect of it. I consider this "apology campaign" started by some Turkish intellectuals as a huge joke.

The text they had prepared is wonderful!

Now I am waiting with some trepidation to see just how many Turks join the most romantic campaign in the history. A million people? Maybe two, three, five million?

What if the number of people who sign does not reach the 47 percent that presents the national will?

Think about it: "The national will definitely does not apologize..."

We would be disgraced in eyes of Armenians.

* * *
Since Peter Gabriel has joined, I think we should place on the table all the issues that need apologizing for.

For example, who is going to apologize for the Turkish diplomats murdered by the ASALA terror organization?

We should find people from other countries since no Armenian, either from Armenia or the diaspora has come forward to do that.

I propose an appeal to Mick Jagger. He will sign it for sure.

We should knock on Germany’s door to get apologizes for the Turks and Kurds who were slaughtered by the Armenian gangs in 1915, but the Germans have another apology issue to deal with.

What about the Turkish civilians who were killed in Thessaloniki during the Balkan Wars, despite the fact they had laid down their weapons.

Who is going to apologize of their behalf?

Do you think a Canadian might do it?

Leonard Cohen, for example.

No he won't - since he loves the Greeks and lived on a Greek island for years.

Maybe it would be possible to find someone from Asia.

Let me warn you: It is easy to find someone who would come down hard on Turks but it is not so easy to find someone who to apologize for the Turks that were slaughtered.

* * *
Still it is a good thing to have a few Turkish intellectuals who would apologize on behalf of Turks.

In the future we will stand up in front of the whole world and say "Look, we have people who apologize. But there is not even one representative from them."

I sincerely support this campaign only to say that.

And I promise to give my full backing, as Peter Gabriel has done, to signature campaigns that are launched for the all bad things that the Brits and French have done.
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/10586817.asp?gid=244

[Mackie]

A new Greek-Turkish nationalism playground. Hell.

[Clearday-TRForce]

CDTRF thanks for the suggestion but im not into fiction really..This is also a good read ,just finished it (it received the Minnesota Book Award in 2007) and it also related to the topic at hand

writen by Taner Akcam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#Legal_disputes)

A Shameful Act-The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility
http://us.macmillan.com/ashamefulact

http://media.us.macmillan.com/jackets/Tilted/9780805086652.jpg


Chris, Taner Akcam is a very well known in Turkey with his opinions but comfartable to write here. I doubt it can be same in Greece? I advise you to read more about the issue what the other respectful authors write.(I again in doubt that you can do it and no suprise) And no suprise you desperately hold the switch of it to say against something to us.You are just driveling around with big mouth and simply deny what we say...


@ Mackie the boy is right for "brainwashed-ultra-streo-typed" nationalists. Not for us.

[chris450]

CDTRF you are not making sense,please write in proper english so we can comunicate

plus the topic title is "Turkish intelectuals issue apology to Armenians" ,why dont we focus on that ,instead of trying to shoot the messenger?

[eugenlitwin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7784230.stm

An internet petition has been launched in Turkey, apologising for the "great catastrophe of 1915" when hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Armenians died.

does somebody here has E-link to this petition?

[Mackie]

@ Mackie the boy is right for "brainwashed-ultra-streo-typed" nationalists. Not for us.

For me a lot of Turks AND Greeks are ultra-nationalists. Sorry but same here in Germany. There are several Greek-Turkish beef forums and I also know several ultra-nationalsitic guys. They grow up with it, so I accuse nobody.
But I propose to think about it and hope for better relationships between the two nations.

Topic:
Nationlism don't allow guilty plea, so I would not believe in Turkish or Armenian archives. And I always wonder why the Turks doesn't accept the German documents. I mean, we have nothing to lose in WWI + II reputation.

[eugenlitwin]

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/10586817.asp?gid=244

Charles Aznavour´ll disagree with PG

[Clearday-TRForce]

Chris, good movement mentioning some proper english abilities...


I need you to read more books related to case before easy concluding. Taner Akcam is not enough for you.

Let me write these books;

- Bruce Fein * "An Armenian and Muslim Tragedy? Yes! Genocide? No!"
- Marc Schulman * "The Armenian Lobby"
- Armenian Historian Kapriel Serope Papazian * "Patriotism Perverted"


I wait for you after reading these some books.I have many book that I can advise you to read,but read in the beginning instead of being a big mouth of armenian thesis.

and the same guy eugenlitwin is in same type thread. Guess Why?

[saladin]

I have a PhD. and I'm a professor. I think this qualifies me as a Turkish intellectual more than other so called intellectuals in the mentioned news. I'm expecting apology from Armenians because my family was directly attacked by Armenian gangs in Adana.

[AROUETLJ]

I demand apologies from everyone except the Inuit.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I have a PhD. and I'm a professor. I think this qualifies me as a Turkish intellectual more than other so called intellectuals in the mentioned news. I'm expecting apology from Armenians because my family is directly affected by Armenian gangs in Adana.

Haha, but you shouldn't wait it from anybody,because you are automatically selected as a brain-washed person by the streo-type and same wagonist guys that we all know here. Chris,euge....vs

And Hey, they have heard it new. Your family affected? It can not be...It is not possible...you dirty herry...you liar....

hmmm.. and I am a specialist with master degree in budget and logistics and over 10 years experience in unique firms,so I must be an intellectual too...so it qualifies me an upgraded level that allows me to write something more than ordinary citizen here? huh sounds logical for you? ok, Please I am also awating your apologises...Where ours?

[eugenlitwin]

new we far away from the topic... again, whats about those Turkish Thinkers? who they are? why they have done it? consequences ?

[Clearday-TRForce]

new we far away from the topic... again, whats about those Turkish Thinkers? who they are? why they have done it? consequences ?


we are on spot like you eater...(look how much I embrace you with passion and in love):hug:

[eugenlitwin]

eugenlitwin (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=24484),

"Turkish thinkers" --> there is no official definition for that.

They are nothing more than manipulated bunch of some writers. Pretty much every country have one bunch of them in the world. rofl

i guess, same in turkey and many in the world ´d disagree with you

[Clearday-TRForce]

eugenlitwin (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=24484),

"Turkish thinkers" --> there is no official definition for that.

They are nothing more than manipulated bunch of some writers. Pretty much every country have one bunch of them in the world. rofl

or the best thing to say "actor",these traitors,ahhh sorry actors... are taken so many gifts and prizes,awards from the lovely "same goal" players...

[saladin]

Whois information for the site these so called intellectuals:


Registrant Contact:
Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc.
Whois Agent ()

Fax:
PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1
C/O XXXXXXXXXXXXX (I removed)
Bellevue, WA 98007
US


Why hide the identity of site owner when all the so called intellectuals proudly apologize? Why indeed......

[eugenlitwin]

Whois information for the site these so called intellectuals:


Why hide the identity of site owner when all the so called intellectuals proudly apologize? Why indeed......

maybe because its dangerous? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink

PS can you post the link to this web page?

[Hollis]

A reminder;

This issue is a very political and emotional issue. If it ever is to be resolved in a fairness to all parties involved or some form of reconciliation, biased emotions needs to be left out of the discussion.


This is not a let's bash Turkey thread. Or let's bash the Armenians, etc,

If you have a agenda other than reconciliation, don't post.

[chris450]

Whois information for the site these so called intellectuals:


Why hide the identity of site owner when all the so called intellectuals proudly apologize? Why indeed......

saladin,i think there is a legitimate concern on the safety of people who openly speak of Armenian genocide ,like the late journalist Hrant Dink who was brutally assasinated..that could explain the reluctance to go public with names etc

Nobelist Orhan Pamuk and academic Taner Akcam to name a few ,have also received threats for the exact same reason

PS what do you teach ,if you dont mind me asking?

[Jedigman]

Simple fact is Turkey Proposed to set up an Independent commission with Armenia to investigate the claims. Armenia refused, what are they hiding the truth ?

[m.i.t]

This action totally useless and senseless and provocation opportune for ultra nationalists...
it seems İts pumping nationalist feelings aganist armenians..
Most of Turkish public dont beleive allegations...this can not be called as a deny of something..They dont believe it was done ..
But communist idiots who arranged this aciton in Turkey are same all over the world as well as Turkey and are not more than headache makers....

Both nation need a future... İf you think the past you will stay in the past...

PM of TurKey has said "this weird action will demolish all good steps between 2 nation ever made "

[4X4Driver]

They are nothing more than manipulated bunch of some writers. Pretty much every country have one bunch of them in the world. rofl

Exactly! Only four (4) diehard Marxist, so called Turkish intellectuals started this petition. They also happen to be in very good relations with the Armenian diaspora (Armenian Research Center) just like Taner Akcam is.

So..they're very mariginal and nothing to be taken seriously.

[Mackie]

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/2753

[4X4Driver]

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/2753


http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

[Mackie]

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

You read the article I posted? Sure not. But that's typical.

[deli_dumrul]

You read the article I posted? Sure not. But that's typical.

Why don't you resolve the situation yourselves first?

Location: National Press Club in Washington, DC 3/25/2002
Expert: Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4

If you need help, get one of those Armenian priests in your parliaments for a talk / opening ceremony... I hear they forgot to send one to the Swedish parliament that recently refused to formally recognize your fictional tales... Hear that, Adam777?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGZZavrHTNw
Click on the youtube link to watch this video...

Turkey does not need a resolution...

[4X4Driver]

You read the article I posted? Sure not. But that's typical.

Honestly? Just read the first paragraphs and saw it was written by an Armenian and stopped there. Why did you ask? did I mis anything that I already didn't know what Armenians writes about the issue? but rest assure, I'll read it and I'll edit my post if I find out that I made a mistake by not reading it.

[Ulytau]

^^^^

From Beirut mate where ASALA founded


ASALA was founded in 1975 in Beirut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut), Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) during the Lebanese Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War) by Hagop Hagopian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagop_Hagopian) (Harutiun Tagushian) and Kevork Ajemian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevork_Ajemian),[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia#cite_note-7) a prominent contemporary writer, with the help of sympathetic Palestinians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia#cite_note-countrystudy-5) Consisting primarily of Lebanese-born Armenians of the Diaspora

Or he was speaking about 1890s right ?


The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF or ՀՅԴ) (Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language): Հայ Յեղափոխական Դաշնակցութիւն — Hay Heghapokhakan Dashnaktsutiun or Hay Heghapokhagan Tashnagtsutiun, Դաշնակ — Dashnak or Tashnag) is an Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_people) political party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party) founded in Tiflis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi) (Tbilisi in modern day Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29)) in 1890 by Christapor Mikaelian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christapor_Mikaelian), Stepan Zorian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Zorian), and Simon Zavarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Zavarian).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Revolutionary_Federation#cite_note-Foundation_of_the_ARF-2) The party operates in Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia) and in countries where the Armenian diaspora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_diaspora) is present, notably in Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) and the ethnically Armenian-dominated de facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto) Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Nagorno-Karabakh).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Revolutionary_Federation#cite_note-The_Lebanon-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Revolutionary_Federation#cite_note-Karabakh_and_ARF-4)

More

Tryin to Assasinate Sultan Abdulhamit


In July 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_21), 1905 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905), Abdülhamid was subjected to an assassination attempt. Abdülhamid was regularly using only the mosque for Friday prayers. This routine gave Armenian separatists, in the command of Belgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian) anarchist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist) Edward Jorris (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Jorris&action=edit&redlink=1), Kristofor Mikaelyan which was the field responsible, Robina, Nishan Minasian, Migirdic Serkis Garibyan, Karabet Ohanesyan, Vahram Sabun Kendiryan, Silviyorici, Sari Torkom and Trase Yuvanovic the chance to place a clock operated bomb in a car with over 80 kg explosives with 20 kg iron pieces to act as shrapnel in front of the mosque.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Hamid_II#cite_note-12) Two of the assassins, Kristofor Mikaelyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christapor_Mikaelian) and his so-called daughter Robina, has observed Abdülhamid's routine for weeks. The distance between the point Sultan gets on his car and the first stairs of the mosque was walked about 1 minute 42 seconds, and the bomb was set according to this figure. In the day of the action, Abdülhamid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd%C3%BClhamid_II) started chatting with Seyhulislam Cemalettin Efendi, and was late to arrive to the explosion point. The bomb exploded at the right time, killing 26, wounding 58 and crushing 17 cars and 20 horses. Abdülhamid got away without a scratch.

Oh true in other Kingdoms if a group try to assasinate king or something they givin gift about his honorful action right.

More about this thing;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yildiz_Attempt


Especially i notice some groups info background or ideology etc. nearly same with pkk interestin isnt it?

I dont get a point how they become intellectual its really easy thing?

For example Baskin Oran from the list funniest leftist or marxist ''He callin himself'' especially his words,

This ''INTELLECTUAL'' people if they live somethings in their life its not my problem nice to see they said ''They doing for themselves'' but when they deny everytime ''Turkish'' issue now we wont see that interestin isnt it also rememberin some words from the Turkish citizens who livin in France or something about how they were speaking at some tv channels and how they were making Turkish people sick there.

They speakin about about big disaster or tragedy isnt war tragedy especially if we speakin about the World Wars.

And i dont get this too

Especially in this year there was some diplomatic things meetings,football match etc etc. and Russia start to be part about diplomacy..

Finally everything start to be between regional countries Turkiye,Azerbaijan,Armenia and Russia ministers start to speak etc. then first Diaspora went to Vatican and after that cause kind of this steps can change good ideas kind of games always reminds me ''Aristotle letter to Alexander about how he will keep his power''

When they ''This ''intellectual'' people'' start to lose their effect always startin this chauvinist things well honestly they have more chance at Show Life more then politics..

Ulytau

[chris450]

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

funny that you mention that site,it has an interesting history regarding Taner Akcam and threats made on his life


More recently, Akçam faced harassment after discovering the identity behind the creator of the Web site Tall Armenian Tale,[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-holdwater-14)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-30)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-juancole-31) which called Akçam a "turncoat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turncoat)" and posted his personal information.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-32) Fearing reprisals à la Hrant Dink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink), Akçam entreated the Coordination Council of Armenian Organisations in France and president Sarkozy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy) to pressure Ankara to protect him.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-33)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am






Holdwater: “Murad Gümen: The Mysterious American Who Drives the Armenians Mad”

Taner Akçam

On 27 July 2005, Yeni Şafak newspaper published an interview, “The Mysterious American Who Drives the Armenians Mad,” about an “interesting and unique” person who writes under the pseudonym Holdwater. “This mysterious American has been financing, for many years, a highly effective, US-based Internet site,” Yeni Şafak reports. “The primary aim of Tall Armenian Tale: Other Side of the Falsified Genocide is to provide substantial responses to the Armenian Diaspora’s claims of genocide.”

According to the newspaper, Holdwater, a New York native, was born in the 1950s to Turkish parents who had migrated to America in the 1940s and raised their son without teaching him a single word of Turkish. He champions the Turkish theses [denial of the Armenian Genocide—ed.] on his Web site at www.tallarmeniantale.com (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com).

Holdwater says he uses a pseudonym because he is the target of threats and sabotage on a daily basis. “If I tell you my real name and you publish it in your newspaper,” he told Yeni Şafak, “trust me, within a few days neither my family harmony nor my good business nor my Internet site would still be in existence.”

While afraid to disclose his own name because his peace will be disturbed, Holdwater does not hold back from publishing the photographs of intellectuals such as Halil Berktay and Müge Göçek [of the Workshop for Armenian-Turkish Scholarship—ed.], and parading them as targets in his articles full of animosity and hatred. It is quite difficult to understand how someone who is afraid of being attacked can organize such ruthless campaigns of belligerence against others.

I too am among Holdwater’s priority targets. He leads the campaign against me, along with institutions such as the Assembly of American Turkish Associations (ATAA) and the Turkish Forum. He publishes articles on his site which claim that I am a terrorist; that I am responsible of the death of Americans in Turkey; and even that I have planned and organized murders of American civilians. He publishes a list of my “terrorist activities” from the years 1974-75, including precise dates and locations. The list he has published is actually ordinary, small scale arrests during student demonstrations of the era, which didn’t even make the press at the time. [See “A Shameful Campaign,” Armenian Reporter, March 17, 2007—ed.]

It doesn’t take too much intelligence to guess who might have passed to Holdwater the police records of these insignificant arrests, whose dates even I had forgotten. But here’s the real problem: Those who funnel this information to Holdwater as “Taner Akçam’s terrorist activities” are actually taking advantage of Holdwater’s ignorance about Turkey.

Poor Holdwater thinks these arrests were for “terrorist activities,” not realizing that they were all related to crimes of leafletting and postering, for which police permission had been obtained. He seems to have no idea that in 1970s Turkey, one had to obtain permission from what is now called the Security General Directorate’s Special Inspection Branch Directorate for the Associations, and that even with a special permit in hand, one could be arbitrarily arrested and apprehended at police headquarters for 3-5 days.

Once I was arrested for an issue regarding the Cyprus landing. As the Student Association, we were distributing authorized leaflets against the [Turkish] military invasion of Cyprus [1974]. Despite showing our permits, we were held for 2-3 days at police headquarters.

The other actions Holdwater has publicized as my ‘terrorist activities’ are related to our demand for the foundation of a student representation office on campus, where we could voice our issues with the university administration. All this is slightly difficult to understand for someone who was raised and educated as an American.

In addition, whoever passed to Holdwater the information about my arrests forgot to send him my photograph. Therefore, for a long time, Holdwater represented me on his site with a photograph of a PKK member.

Those who are carrying out a campaign against me, portraying me as a “terrorist,” are exploiting this “mysterious American” called Holdwater. Their calculation is simple: To make use of the “terrorist” image which took root in the US after September 11. They are expecting favors from a mindset which labels as “terrorist” both a person arrested for handing out flyers in 1974 and those who attacked the TwinTowers in 2001.

With this attitude, they are actually making fun of Americans, too. After all, here we have a “terrorist” who has carried out direct “terrorist activities” against Turkey; and what is logical would be to get hold of this terrorist and hold him to account according to Turkish law. Or at least give information to Americans regarding the past activities of this “terrorist,” his investigation and trial.

Instead, they are telling the Americans something which amounts to: “We treat this man as a citizen with a clean record, but could you be so kind as to treat him as a terrorist?” Because, in fact, the citizen in question had his prison sentence annulled with changes made to the Turkish Criminal Code in 1992 and also has a document stating he has a “clean record.”

Ignorant as Holdwater is about Turkey, it is impossible for him to understand all this. What I find difficult to understand is why this “mysterious” person is so full of hatred and animosity and why he organizes campaigns of belligerence against others despite stating that he is very afraid. I wouldn’t even want to imagine that Holdwater, who describes his appearance as that of “a typical Christian who goes to church with his family on Sundays,” does not know of the Christian teaching which proclaims: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Next week, I want to take a closer look at the Holdwater issue.
Edited from a translation by Nazım Dikbaş for Agos newspaper (May 18, 2007). The July 27, 2005, interview in Yeni Şafak was conducted by Ali Murat Güven.

Holdwater: The Golden Rule

Part II

Taner Akçam

In his interview with Yeni Şafak newspaper on July 27, 2005, after stating the reasons for withholding his identity, Holdwater says, “I have been able to sustain this struggle for thirty years because I have been able to keep my mouth shut. So please do not push me too much on this sensitive issue.” Holdwater claims to have exceptional skill at protecting his anonymity.

I don’t know if anonymity lends a special mystery to Holdwater and a special meaning to his work, or if it makes people wonder, “Who, actually, is this person?” It didn’t strike me that way. I had no interest either in his writings or in his Web site—until he took on a key role in the campaign against me.

One of Holdwater’s important arguments in this campaign was that a complaint should be filed with American immigration authorities, denouncing me as a “terrorist.” Now, I don’t know if he actually did such a thing. Nor am I aware of a direct link between his argument and my recent four-hour detention at the Canadian border. But I did mention Holdwater and the campaign in an article I wrote on the detention. [See “A Shameful Campaign,” Armenian Reporter, March 17, 2007—Ed.] Holdwater wrote a 30-page rebuttal, full of lies, insults and attacks.
Holdwater relies on the fact that his name and address are withheld. “No-one knows who I am, so I’ll say whatever I like,” he must think.

This approach of Holdwater must be curbed, and he must be reminded that every game must be played according to its rules. To shamelessly insult others while hiding one’s own identity fits with no proper principle. It’s a disgrace, to say the least.

Holdwater’s claim regarding his intense effort to conceal his identity doesn’t seem to…hold water. Or he doesn’t take historians seriously enough. He doesn’t know we are enthusiastic about documents and love to trace them. To sum up, he has shown a certain degree of carelessness, the kind of carelessness committed by an ordinary person who fancies himself as very clever and more intelligent than others.

Introducing himself on his Web site, TallArmenianTale.com, Holdwater published some correspondence he sent and received in his own name—taking care to omit his name before posting the letters online.

According to this correspondence, Holdwater wrote to President Jimmy Carter on April 2, 1980. This letter was forwarded to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, an organization established by the United States Congress in October 1980. [The USHMC is the governing body of the United StatesHolocaustMemorialMuseum in Washington, DC.—Ed.]

On June 2, 1980, Council Director Monroe H. Freedman answered Holdwater’s letter. One senses from the reply that Holdwater’s objections to referencing the Armenian Genocide were taken seriously. Freedman states that he lacks sufficient information on the “Turkish theses” and asks Holdwater to forward citations of relevant sources.

This, of course, is a great honor for Holdwater. Therefore, he sees no harm in publishing a facsimile of Freedman’s letter on his Web site, with Holdwater’s name removed. Also posted at TallArmenianTale.com is another letter he wrote, this one to the New York Times. We understand from this second letter that, on September 5, 1980, Holdwater had responded to Freedman’s June 2 letter.

I don’t know whether Holdwater is aware of this, but the Holocaust Memorial Council and the HolocaustMuseum it governs are public institutions, and therefore, this correspondence is available to the public. Which means, in accordance with the principle of transparency, that anyone can view the originals of Holdwater’s letters.

Once you have the text of Freedman’s letter dated June 2, 1980, and published by Holdwater, as well as the information that Holdwater wrote a reply on September 5, 1980, it is rather easy to access these documents. The HolocaustMuseum must provide this information to anyone who demands it.

Yes, Mr. Murad Gümen, or, to use the English alphabet, Murad Gumen; as you see, one doesn’t have to be comic-book detective Kerry Drake to find out who you are (Murad Gümen understands very well what I mean). Tracing the documents published by you has proved sufficient. I believe you will stop taking historians so lightly from now on. As you have understood, we are talking about a document that you yourself have also published.

All I am saying is, to prevent any distortion and alteration of the document, that the name on this document, which you effaced, is Murad Gümen. In a sense, I am rectifying the alteration you made on a document presented to the public.

As you may know, we scholars don’t particularly appreciate the alteration of documents. Such distortion is the reserved occupation of the Turkish Historical Society.

Attacking others, and insulting them, while concealing your own name, does not fit moral conduct at all, Mr. Murad Gümen. Believe me, I am still quite curious as to why you think that I, and many others in my position, do not deserve a right you so readily claim for yourself.


Dr. Akçam, a professor of history at the University of Minnesota, is the author of A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility (2006). The present article has been edited from a translation by Nazım Dikbaş for Agos newspaper (May 25, 2007). The July 27, 2005, interview in Yeni Şafak was conducted by Ali Murat Güven. Holdwater’s presentation of his correspondence with Monroe H. Freedman was accessible at www.tallarmeniantale.com/holocaust-memorial.htm (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/holocaust-memorial.htm) as of May 25, 2007. The correspondence between Murad Gümen and Monroe H. Freedman is in the United StatesHolocaustMemorialMuseum Institutional Archives, Accession no. 1997-014, box 152, file 6.

[deli_dumrul]

Why not? Are we going to allow Armenians to threaten pro-Turkish stance historians only?

[m.i.t]

Chris...How many times joined like those kind of threads which ended " sign lock " ?

Generally these kind of threads are posted by our dear Hellenic friends and generally ends by Mods with plenty of bans and other acts...l dont remeber even one sample was finished without LOCKED.. No one need one more ...

Plzz gents...Debate is going nowhere as usual...

[chris450]

lets stay on topic instead of wishing this thread gets locked gents



Writers risk backlash with apology for Armenian genocide



Robert Tait in Istanbul
The Guardian, Monday 8 December 2008
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/08/armenian-genocide-turkey-apology-petition#history-byline)

Academics and writers in Turkey (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/turkey) have risked a fierce official backlash by issuing a public apology for the alleged genocide suffered by Armenians at the hands of Ottoman forces during the first world war.

Breaking one of Turkish society's biggest taboos, the apology comes in an open letter that invites Turks to sign an online petition supporting its sentiments.

It reads: "My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathise with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers. I apologise to them."
The contents expose its authors - three scholars, Ahmet Insel, Baskin Oran and Cengiz Aktar, and a journalist, Ali Bayramoglu - to the wrath of the Turkish state, which has prosecuted writers, including the Nobel prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk, for supporting Armenian genocide claims.

Turkey rejects the assertion of many historians and Armenia's government that up to 1.5 million Armenians died in a wave of expulsions that amounted to state-sanctioned genocide. Officials claim the death toll was much lower and that most of the victims died from disease. They also say many Turks were killed by Armenians, who have long been accused of allying themselves with enemy Russian forces against the Ottoman empire.
The letter has triggered a furious response from ultranationalists, who have labelled it a "betrayal" and an "insult to the Turkish nation".

However, Aktar, a professor of EU studies at Istanbul's University of Bahcesehir, said Turks needed to apologise for being unable to discuss the issue because of official policy, which has long repressed open debate on the Armenians' fate.

"Today many people in Turkey, with all good intentions, think that nothing happened to the Armenians," he told the newspaper Vatan. "The official history says that this incident happened through secondary, not very important, and even mutual massacres. They push the idea that it was an ordinary incident explainable by the conditions of the first world war. Unfortunately, the facts are very different."

He added: "This is a voice coming from the individual's conscience. Those who want to apologise can apologise, and those who do not should not."
The letter coincides with a tentative rapprochement between Turkey and Armenia.

In September, the Turkish president, Abdullah Gul, attended a football match between the two countries, at the invitation of his Armenian counterpart, Serge Sarkisian.
But further talks aimed at restoring ties have become bogged down partly because of Armenian reluctance to accept a Turkish demand for a joint commission to investigate the genocide claims.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/08/armenian-genocide-turkey-apology-petition

[4X4Driver]

funny that you mention that site,it has an interesting history regarding Taner Akcam and threats made on his life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am

Of course..not everyone likes to be called murderer unjustly..esp. by those who gets paid to say this. ;)

[Migman]

Simple fact is Turkey Proposed to set up an Independent commission with Armenia to investigate the claims. Armenia refused, what are they hiding the truth ?

Armenia's position has always been that the Genocide was a historical fact, hence the refusal to join these whimsical "fact-finding committees" that do nothing more than play into the hands of Genocide deniers. The whole notion of attempting to disprove the occurrence of a tragedy of such epic proportions is offensive and demeaning.

[4X4Driver]

Armenia's position has always been that the Genocide was a historical fact, hence the refusal to join these whimsical "fact-finding committees" that do nothing more than play into the hands of Genocide deniers. The whole notion of attempting to disprove the occurrence of a tragedy of such epic proportions is offensive and demeaning.

..and how interesting/convinient that despite of all these "hard facts" you guys have, there is not one court decision finding us guilty about the alleged crimes. Why is lobbying around the politicans more convinient than taking us to court on the matter?..maybe, because we all know that politicians are just politicians and they do anything for a vote?

[Beykoz]

Armenia's position has always been that the Genocide was a historical fact, hence the refusal to join these whimsical "fact-finding committees" that do nothing more than play into the hands of Genocide deniers. The whole notion of attempting to disprove the occurrence of a tragedy of such epic proportions is offensive and demeaning.
Thanks for admitting the wrong premise of the Armenian lobby.
You accepted your version of events as "facts" long time ago and have been trying to convince the world of your fallacy.
Skewing the truth, falsifying history, creating and doctoring evidence to support the lies are well known tactics of Armenians. The "fact finding committees" you refer to as whimsical, are more than necessary to correct the Armenian lies taken as gospel.

But, there is worse... The same Armenians that accuse Turks of genocide nearly a 100 years ago, have gone and performed the worst attrocities a mere 16 years ago in Hocali. Bloddy despicable! I guess these Turkish "intellectuals" are unaware of some facts!!!

The latest massacre towards Turks by the Armenian was committed at the town of Hocalı of Azerbaijan at the Karabagh War during 25-26 February 1992. In spite of the fact that the documents and the information before and aftermath the incident were enough to characterize this incident as a genocide, and 16 years have passed over the incident, none of the authorized and responsible international institutions have made a fair and judicial evaluation on this matter. And this situation leads to disputes on genocide-massacre at Hocalı.
http://www.eraren.org/index.php?Lisan=tr&Page=GBultenDetay&BultenNo=12337

[Migman]

..and how interesting/convinient that despite of all these "hard facts" you guys have, there is not one court decision finding us guilty about the alleged crimes. Why is lobbying around the politicans more convinient than taking us to court on the matter?..maybe, because we all know that politicians are just politicians and they do anything for a vote?

As it stands, it is much easier to lobby politicians than take matters to court, especially considering the official position of the Armenian government. Besides, having gone through an internship with one of the foremost Armenian lobby organizations in the USA, I can tell you that the current strategy is working rather effectively. ;)


Thanks for admitting the wrong premise of the Armenian lobby.
You accepted your version of events as "facts" long time ago and have been trying to convince the world of your fallacy.
Skewing the truth, falsifying history, creating and doctoring evidence to support the lies are well known tactics of Armenians. The "fact finding committees" you refer to as whimsical, are more than necessary to correct the Armenian lies taken as gospel.

There is nothing wrong with the premise of the Armenian lobby. They exist for the purpose of bringing about recognition and justice that is long overdue. And please, falsifying history? Skewing the truth? Are you serious?


But, there is worse... The same Armenians that accuse Turks of genocide nearly a 100 years ago, have gone and performed the worst attrocities a mere 16 years ago in Hocali. Bloddy despicable! I guess these Turkish "intellectuals" are unaware of some facts!!!

I can't speak for the Turkish intellectuals, but I myself am fully aware of what went down during Karabkh's war for independence. As horrific as these actions war on the part of the Armenians in Khojaly, the fact of the matter is that atrocities were committed by both sides.

[eugenlitwin]

2 deli_dumrul (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=42104)

great job, don´t forget its just a forum

[Beykoz]

As it stands, it is much easier to lobby politicians than take matters to court, especially considering the official position of the Armenian government. Besides, having gone through an internship with one of the foremost Armenian lobby organizations in the USA, I can tell you that the current strategy is working rather effectively. ;)
Politicians make a lot of decisions for their own benefit.
You, a proud product of an Armenian lobby, can gloat all you like about your success, but it means nothing for Turkish Republic.



There is nothing wrong with the premise of the Armenian lobby. They exist for the purpose of bringing about recognition and justice that is long overdue. And please, falsifying history? Skewing the truth? Are you serious?
Just shows how clueless you are on Turkish side of the arguments. There are tons of documents disproving the Armenian allegations but you automatically dismiss them as a joke.



I can't speak for the Turkish intellectuals, but I myself am fully aware of what went down during Karabkh's war for independence. As horrific as these actions war on the part of the Armenians in Khojaly, the fact of the matter is that atrocities were committed by both sides.
FFS, can't you see this is the exact same thing we say about the events of 1915...?
You are defending the Armenian atrocities of 1992 with the exact mentality us Turks have regarding 1915. Yet, your atrocities are a mere 16 years ago !!!

[eugenlitwin]

whats interesting here that from Monday Turkey´d never be the same again, it´s possible to stop one (Hrant Dink) from telling truth but its impossible to stop (in the same way) 1 000s

[4X4Driver]

whats interesting here that from Monday Turkey´d never be the same again, it´s possible to stop one (Hrant Dink) from telling truth but its impossible to stop (in the same way) 1 000s


Actually, it's a hand full of people signing the petition w/different names..hell, even the names of assasinated ambassadors by armenian terror org. ASALA are there..this shows how desperate they are.

[eugenlitwin]

Actually, it's a hand full of people signing the petition w/different names..hell, even the names of assasinated ambassadors by armenian terror org. ASALA are there..this shows how desperate they are.

but not a one:roll: and can you imagine something like this lets say for 10 years ago?

[4X4Driver]

but not a one:roll: and can you imagine something like this lets say for 10 years ago?

ain't that wonderful for Turkey..but you know what..? no one can do the same about Hocali genocide in armenia. We never see you bring this up ;)