Undersized rounds.

[The Beard]

Apologies for this, but I asked a similar question a little while ago and the answers were gratefully received. For those not in the U.K., an 18 year old has just got life for shooting a child in Liverpool. The kid was an innocent by-stander in a gang war. The weapon used was a WWI vintage .455 Smith & Wesson revolver. In the news report it was said the round was slightly undersized and as a result hit the child side on causing massive damage. I've been wondering what round it could actually be that would tumble like that in flight. I'm assuming a .45 ACP would be the wrong type of round, but would a .44 be about right or are they only Magnums. So question; what round would be large enough to actually go down the barrel but be small enough to tumble? Sorry if this seems facile.

[SMGLee]

the undersized round does not exact tumble inside the barrel, it is probably bouncing off the bore and creating a very unstable bullet in flight, like always the heavier end will always want to for forward so the bullet started its side way flight once it left the muzzle.

[Straker]

Apologies for this, but I asked a similar question a little while ago and the answers were gratefully received. For those not in the U.K., an 18 year old has just got life for shooting a child in Liverpool. The kid was an innocent by-stander in a gang war. The weapon used was a WWI vintage .455 Smith & Wesson revolver. In the news report it was said the round was slightly undersized and as a result hit the child side on causing massive damage. I've been wondering what round it could actually be that would tumble like that in flight. I'm assuming a .45 ACP would be the wrong type of round, but would a .44 be about right or are they only Magnums. So question; what round would be large enough to actually go down the barrel but be small enough to tumble? Sorry if this seems facile.

Its .455 Webley, balistically it was a large fairly slow cartridge with low chamber pressure (lower than the .38 round that replaced it, note its .38 200 rather than .38 S&W).

Wouldn't want to be anywhere near one attempting to fire a .44 Magnum, the chamber pressure is far too high.

[Crewdog]

I have seen .45 ACp key holed in targets..... as well as 5.56 which bounced first. The barrel could simply be worn out as well.

[The Beard]

Sorry chaps, I didn't really make that clear. The bullet is believed to have tumbled end over end after leaving the barrel. The report stated that the round was undersized for the weapon but also that the weapon was in good condition for its age but the rifling was worn. I'm assuming a round designed to be fired from a semi-automatic pistol will have a different style of cartridge case in order for it to be ejected. Did Colt make a .45 revolver in the first half of the 20th Century? If so, and this might bring me almost a full circle to my other post about cartridges and bullets, is it a case of the .45 Colt revolver round being capable of being fired through a .455 weapon but simply not advisable.

[Hollis]

If it was that small (tumble in the barrel), how did it chamber? Maybe someone familiar with the case and firearms can provide the information.

[Don Cossack]

If it was that small (tumble in the barrel), how did it chamber? Maybe someone familiar with the case and firearms can provide the information.

You can chamber undersized rounds in a gun if you want to. As long as the bolt can lock so the gun doesn't fire out of battery, you can (attempt) to shoot an undersized round. The whole problem is that the casing won't be held by the extractor if it's too small, meaning the tip of the actual bullet will be sitting sideways or angled up against the barrel. So either the firing pin will miss the primer entirely and do nothing, or it'll fire and go bang up against the inside of the bore.

If I remember correctly, you can modify the cylinders in guns that fire .455 Webley to fit .45 ACP. Most of the people I've seen who have them tend to do this, as it ends up being cheaper to shoot it then. More than likely it's what that guy did, I can't imagine some chav gangbanger being too concered about the historical value of his grandfather's service revolver or whoever's gun it was.

[GazB]

I would guess that any round that doesn't engage the rifling in a barrel is going to exit without the stabilising from spinning.
A bit like a spinning top sits on its point while it is spinning, but if it is not spinning it lies down. If the bullet doesn't engage the rifling in the barrel and is no spun will not keep point forward in flight though how it actually flys depends on its shape and balance. A spire pointed bullet would be tail heavy and would probably flip but the momentum generated by the sudden flip might continue it tumbling in flight.
I don't know but would guess a 45 calibre slug would have the aerodynamics of a brick and might wobble in flight more than tumble.
Either way it would have greatly reduced velocity because there would be no gas seal around the bullet in the barrel. The risk of the bullet getting stuck half way down and then blocking the barrel for the next shot to cause serious damage... never fire ammo in a gun no designed for it. Otherwise you get a nickname like fingers or blinky (for loss of fingers or eyesight respectively).

[Hollis]

You can chamber undersized rounds in a gun if you want to.


Ok, the hint, The bullet needs to tumble down the barrel. Yes one can chamber a 22 LR round in a 44 MAG.. guess the bullet will tumble down the barrel, but the pistol will not fire the round.

I have a case on my desk found at a range, a person shot a 44 Mag in a 45 Colt. I doubt one would say the bullet .429 tumbled down the barrel. 45 colt bullet has a diameter of .451.

Yes cylinders can be modified to take different rounds, wrong rounds can be inserted and sometimes will fire.

So as I mentioned, we needs someone who knows firearms and this case to give some facts on what happened. For me the article makes no sense out side that a kid shot a pistol, another kid was killed.

In Black powder shooting, front stuffers use undersized bullets compare to "metallic" cartridges.


Maybe how the word tumble is used?

[Don Cossack]

Ok, the hint, The bullet needs to tumble down the barrel. Yes one can chamber a 22 LR round in a 44 MAG.. guess the bullet will tumble down the barrel, but the pistol will not fire the round.

I have a case on my desk found at a range, a person shot a 44 Mag in a 45 Colt. I doubt one would say the bullet .429 tumbled down the barrel. 45 colt bullet has a diameter of .451.

Yes cylinders can be modified to take different rounds, wrong rounds can be inserted and sometimes will fire.


Well that's pretty much what I said, note the "attempt" in parenthesis. The bullet will just sit there, and if you try to fire nothing will happen unless you get lucky.

As for the revolver in the news story, they said it fires .455 Webley which is the same size as .45 ACP, the only difference is the shape of the casing. There are replacement clips for .455 cylinders that allow them to chamber .45 ACP.

Maybe they were referencing the shape of the actual bullet itself? The length combined with the difference in grains used might have produced a slower and more akward flight path than standard .455 Webley.

We would need to know what was shot out of the gun to be sure however. Does anyone have a link to the news story itself?

[Hollis]

Don, Yeah does not make sense, I had a pistol (Ruger) that would shoot 45 Colt and with a change in cylinder would shoot 45 ACP. The bullet diameter is the same in this instance.


Kind of sounds like, the shooter/lawyer is trying blame the murder on the pistol or ammo in this situation and not the shooter.

[JJ_BPK]

The .445 Webley round is normally true .455 inch, While the .45 ACP is .452 inch. This difference of .003 inch is not enough to tumble a round in the barrel nor cause it to tumble out of the barrel..

To use the .45 ACP the Webley's had a small amount of the cylinder shaved to facilitate the use of the .45 ACP and moon clips, either 6, 3, or 2 round clips (c att pic).

I would raise two points

1)the UK news is sensationalizing the report,, like this never happens???

2)the perp could have used moon clips from another size round,, say 9 MM, in which case the round wound have tumbled.

BUT the complete loss of back-pressure and blow-by from trying to use a round that is some 30% smaller in dia, would have the 9mm coming out the barrel so slow as to be caught in your hand,,

My Final Answer,,,

I vote for Answer #1,, and I'll save my four(4) lifelines for later..

[Laconian]

I'm going to go with JJ's 1&2 answers. It is very unlikely the a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun will start to actually tumble, end over end. It may yaw, or keyhole somewhat. Certainly, the news would want to publish something flashy for a report.

However having recovered a great number of guns off of mopes and at crime scenes, there is no telling what the nit-wits actually put in the gun. I have recovered 9mm pistols with .25, .32, .380, and 9mm all loaded into the same mag inserted in the gun. Likewise from revolvers I have recovered .38 Special, .38 S&W and .32, all in the same chamber. To most mopes a bullet is a bullet. They are looking to pull a trigger, hoping for a bang...

Like Hollis said, without the evidence sheet and the ballistics report, we're all just guessing...

[11 Bravo]

Some food for thought. When I was a mere 13 yr old I got my first webley from an old codger. It was a Mk I ( birdshead grip ) with a 1910 pattern leather holster. Anyhow .455 webley was a near impossible round to find then. Due to the thin rim of the case you could not wildcat it from an existing cartridge case. And the thought of taking it to a smithy to shave the cylinder for 45 auto was blasphemous.
I found that if you took a .410 shotshell and cut it directly ahead of the powder charge ( I had mostly paper shells back then ) you could tape a buckshot , or any pistol bullet smaller than 45 caliber to the top of the .410 shell. The rim of the shotshell allowed it to function perfectly in the webley and depending on the projectile I chose it was surprisingly accurate to about shooting around corners. Due to the shotshell charge and lack of gas seal in the cylinder I never attempted use of 45 or 455 caliber projectiles or anything over 200 grains in weight.
I'm betting that is what the perp used - cut down 410 shotshells.

[Hollis]

Some food for thought. When I was a mere 13 yr old I got my first webley from an old codger. It was a Mk I ( birdshead grip ) with a 1910 pattern leather holster. Anyhow .455 webley was a near impossible round to find then. Due to the thin rim of the case you could not wildcat it from an existing cartridge case. And the thought of taking it to a smithy to shave the cylinder for 45 auto was blasphemous.
I found that if you took a .410 shotshell and cut it directly ahead of the powder charge ( I had mostly paper shells back then ) you could tape a buckshot , or any pistol bullet smaller than 45 caliber to the top of the .410 shell. The rim of the shotshell allowed it to function perfectly in the webley and depending on the projectile I chose it was surprisingly accurate to about shooting around corners. Due to the shotshell charge and lack of gas seal in the cylinder I never attempted use of 45 or 455 caliber projectiles or anything over 200 grains in weight.
I'm betting that is what the perp used - cut down 410 shotshells.


There is a commonality between 45 Colt and .410 Shotgun. Google Thompson Contender 45 Colt/.410 Barrel.

[California Joe]

Whenever you see terms like "It is believed", it's probably a case of reporters knowing f*ckall about ballistics or firearms.

If you fire and undersized projectile out of a rifled barrel it might as well be a 6 inch Brown Bess...minimal accuracy past about 10 yards...The "tumbling" thing is probably sensationalism, as if a tumbling bullet is somehow more heinous than one that is relatively stable in flight.

[11 Bravo]

There is a commonality between 45 Colt and .410 Shotgun. Google Thompson Contender 45 Colt/.410 Barrel.

Hollis ; I have seen these junky looking hybrids that are meant for both. I have seen some 410's you could chamber 44/40 and some that would chamber 45 LC and go bang. But the rim of the 45 LC case is too thick for headspace in a 455 cylinder. You would have to thin the rims/cartridge base a good bit and then depending on brand of brass case deepen the primer pocket without comprimising the case....... this would be all but impossible on the old but still found "balloon head" cases still out there.
The tumbling bullet cliche may simply be how the coroner explained the lack of rifling on the projectile recovered and or that the facts may show the scum aimed at another person and the unfortunate victim caught the wild slug at an oblique angle.
I remember as a wee lad taking 22 caliber nail gun blanks ( when they made them based on a 22 Long rifle case ) and attaching BB's and or .177/.20 caliber pellets to their cardboard wad and sniping all manner of insects with explosive results.

[JJ_BPK]

There is a commonality between 45 Colt and .410 Shotgun. Google Thompson Contender 45 Colt/.410 Barrel.

A real crowd pleaser...

Thunder 5,, .45 LC & .410 3inch shot shell..

[Hollis]

A real crowd pleaser...

Thunder 5,, .45 LC & .410 3inch shot shell..


I have a 16 inch Contender barrel in 45 Colt/.410, Shooting the .410 is a tad hard on the hand, I hate to see what that crowd pleaser would feel like.

[The Beard]

In light of your posts, is it more likely that the bullet if fired from a barrel that was too large and with worn rifling would not have tumbled after leaving the muzzle but have had its angle in flight altered slightly and if so would that have produced the keyhole effect that's been mentioned here. I don't think it's a case of the press sensationalising something as the report of the undersized round came out at the Coroner's Inquest, presumably as a result of a balistic expert's testimony. The British Press does like to use the words "machine gun" when discussing sub-machine guns but I think they are reporting this accurately. Having said that, one of these gangs has posted videos which appeared to show them with a Bren gun and a MG34/42 leaning up against the wall. Maybe they didn't work, but there are de-activated wepons in the U.K. which have been re-activated. However, the thugs who carry out these shootings know even less than I do about firearms. If they hit sonmeone it's either a fluke or an
accident. Either that or they are about 10 feet away.

[orionhawk]

You can chamber undersized rounds in a gun if you want to.
managed to (inadvertently) shoot a .40 out of a .45 pistol recently.

pain in the ass getting the case out of the chamber.:oops:

[Hollis]

managed to (inadvertently) shoot a .40 out of a .45 pistol recently.

pain in the ass getting the case out of the chamber.:oops:


what 40 did you shot out of what 45.

Such as 40 S&W out of a 45ACP?

[orionhawk]

yeah. I had loaded a magazine from loose ammo, which I thought was all .45ACP. turns out a .40S&W cartridge will stay in a 1911 .45 mag well enough to not notice if you aren't paying attention. I now pay more attention.:oops:

[Seraphim]

Even such as using too heavy of a grain on a .223/5.56 that doesnt have enough twist to stabilize the round will keyhole. Also if you handload, if you have too much crimp it will undersize the round a bit too which will cause the round to keyhole.

[The Beard]

Sorry about this, but just trying to get this clear in my mind, what's left of it, but if a Rugby ball or an American Football is thrown it usually spins about its axis which gives it stability and accuracy. When a bullet or shell travels down the barrel it spins about its axis because of the rifling in a similar manner to the ball with the same results; apart from the pain. So if an undersized round were to be fired down a gun barrel am I right in thinking that there could be some (tiny) movement laterally and/or vertically which would cause the bullet to oscillate slightly and therefore not present exactly the right part of the round to the target. Could this result in the keyholing previously mentioned? Bear in mind because of firemarms laws in the UK there are not that many people with a great deal of experience of weapons. When it comes to those in gangs they have to get close to the target. In this case the shooter tried to hit a rival from about 70 yards away (if I remember rightly) which given the amount of practice these kids get, ie nothing, it is something of a miracle if they hit the right person.

[The Beard]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081266/Pictured-The-Smith-Wesson-gun-used-shoot-dead-Rhys-Jones.html

The above link will lead directly to the story I read which talks about the unersized round.

[Seraphim]

From the news article.

According to experts, this is probably because the rifling in the gun's barrel was worn or the bullet was slightly undersized,

Both of those applied to the revolver and ammunition found by police, the court has heard.

So what is your question again? Basically if the round is not stabilize it will start to tumble in the air and keyhole in the target.

[The Beard]

From the news article.


So what is your question again? Basically if the round is not stabilize it will start to tumble in the air and keyhole in the target.
That was quick. That was the first part of the question. The second part was what size of round COULD have been put through the weapon and I think that has been quite comprehensively answered. Thank you all for your replies

[GazB]

BTW I remember reading an old Combat and Survival Magazine from the 1980s when they talked about reenactment groups. I specifically remember a guy with a full auto RPD. It had the barrel rifling removed so the owner could own it as a shotgun. It had a modified muzzle and chamber so that only blank rounds could be loaded.