Canadian Boys Mk-I anti-tank rifle

[AFACadet]

I just got the "Walt Disney On The Front Lines" DVD set a couple days ago and watched an interesting training video created by the Disney studio to show how to use the Boys Mk-I anti-tank rifle.

I knew anti-tank rifles exsisted, but I had never heard of the Boys' one. Does anyone have any information if it was used in combat or not, and if so, what was the combat record?

[thatguy96]

The British Boys ATR was probably one of the most widely fielded ATR systems by the western allies, some of which even made their way to US forces in North Africa. I don't know any specifics in terms of combat record, but it was deployed as a light anti-tank weapon both with troops, on armored cars, and in improvised armored vehicles (such as the Bren Carrier for instance) during much of the early phases of WWII, primarily in North Africa.

It would appear that it served until replaced by the first iterations of the PIAT (Projector Infantry Anti-Tank) in 1943, being most successful against the lighter armor of Italian and Japanese tanks in North Africa and Malaya.

[bas]

It was also used by the Finns in the Winter War. Who had some success with it when they were able to set an ambush against the Russian light tanks.

[Tony Williams]

The .55 Boys fired a cartridge similar to the .50 Browning's except for the slightly larger calibre and the addition of a belt.

Like most AT rifles it was of limited use at the start of WW2 but soon became outclassed by the increases in armour protection for tanks. Probably the only AT rifle which was worth the effort was the Russian 14.5mm PTRD.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[ArmedPacifist]

Any soldier that had to lug that pos around cursed it's name every day.

It's extremely rough on the soldier.

[REMOV]

It was also used by the Finns in the Winter War. Who had some success with it when they were able to set an ambush against the Russian light tanks.Well... Finns also had their own AT-rifle the 20mm Lahti-Saloranta M1939.


The Finnish 20mm Lahti anti tank gas-operated self-loading rifle of 1939. 10-round box magazine clipped into the top of the receiver. Lahti has a rack and pinion rotary cocking handle, a rotating muzzle brake and two bipods. There were only 1906 of this rifle ever produced.

Calibre: 20 mm
Length: 240 cm
Magazine: 10 Rd.
Weight: 43 kg

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/lahti/l-1.jpg
20mm Finnish AT Rifle Lahti-Saloranta, picture taken with PKM.

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/lahti/l-2.jpg

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/lahti/l-3.jpg

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/lahti/l-4.jpg

[FDF_Hemppis]

Hehe. Hawk-eye Remov correcting mistakes, as always...
Do you actually spend time otherwise than reading about weapons? ;)

Good job, btw :D

[bas]

Hehe. Hawk-eye Remov correcting mistakes, as always...
Do you actually spend time otherwise than reading about weapons? ;)

Good job, btw :D

What mistake? The Finnish armed forces deployed several different weapons during the Winter War, many of them supplied as foriegn aid. This included the Boys anti-tank rifle.

However as Remov correctly points out, the Finnish Army also had their own AT-rifle.

source:
http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinAT/FINantitank2.htm#boys

[thatguy96]

It's extremely rough on the soldier.
Apparently most of the roughness was from improper handling, most of which was avoided if the solider never loosened their grip on the weapon during firing and constantly held it tight to their shoulder. A British study on the matter seemed to be overly biased on the matter however, and blamed everything from broken bones to athlete's foot found with Boys ATR operators on the weapon.

Not like the replaced it with another soldier friendly system either. From most accounts PIAT was a bitch to ****, requiring that you place the rear of the weapon on the ground and use your boot (this was in fact the standard operating procedure, described in the manual) to force the cocking handle down against the spring. Being difficult to tell whether the mechanism had locked led to more than a few teeth being lost by people who then got a PIAT in the face when it sprung back up at them.

[AFACadet]

Thanks for the info

[Tony Williams]

A friend of mind has a functional Boys and ammo - one of these days I'll try it out and report back :)

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[GazB]

Many of the photos I have of PTRS-41s depict them being used in urban combat.. from one side of the road to the other. One presumes they are being used against the roof of German Armoured vehicles and for use through walls at less well armoured targets. No doubt when they became useless against enemy armour they would still have a use against trucks and other light vehicles or even against troops behind cover.

I have read that quite a few Soviet anti tank rifles ended up in the US after the war (Presumably from captured german stocks) and converted to 50 cal browning calibre when stocks of the original ammo dried up. They can't have been that accurate however as they don't seem to have survived and I think the wave of anti material rifles had more to do with certain individuals experiences in Vietnam with sights on Browning HMGs.

[oldsoak]

A friend of mind has a functional Boys and ammo - one of these days I'll try it out and report back :)

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Good ear defenders and manly grip a must. Also some padding if you insist on more that a few shots.

[FDF_Hemppis]

Hehe. Hawk-eye Remov correcting mistakes, as always...
Do you actually spend time otherwise than reading about weapons? ;)

Good job, btw :D

What mistake? The Finnish armed forces deployed several different weapons during the Winter War, many of them supplied as foriegn aid. This included the Boys anti-tank rifle.

However as Remov correctly points out, the Finnish Army also had their own AT-rifle.

source:
http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinAT/FINantitank2.htm#boys

Ohhh...didn't know that one :oops: :oops:

Sorry, my mistake! (this is what you get when you only focus on the Finnish weapons :D)

[DeltaWhisky58]

I have considerable experience of the .55 Boyes owing to the fact that a friend owned one until they were banned in the late 80s.

The rounds was actually considerably larger than that of the .50BMG, being both longer and larger in diameter with a heavier bullet of I think around 900grs. in weight.

I have fired something in the region of 100 rds. from the weapon and can confirm any rumours of horrific recoil - however this was disapaited somewhat by the oil-damped stock, muzzle flash was significant but the muzzle break was reasonably effective.

I shot the .55 Boyes out to 300 yds, which was as good as you could have got under range conditions with the basic sights fitted, however I would have loved to have been able to test the accuracy potential of this weapon with optical sights and hand-loaded ammo. Fitting optics would have been rather difficult owing to the top-mounted magazine and bolt action - some arrangement mounted on the left-hand side of the rifle would have been the only possibility IMO.

I would be really interested to hear of any accuracy work done with this weapon.

[oldsoak]

I have considerable experience of the .55 Boyes owing to the fact that a friend owned one until they were banned in the late 80s.

The rounds was actually considerably larger than that of the .50BMG, being both longer and larger in diameter with a heavier bullet of I think around 900grs. in weight.

I have fired something in the region of 100 rds. from the weapon and can confirm any rumours of horrific recoil - however this was disapaited somewhat by the oil-damped stock, muzzle flash was significant but the muzzle break was reasonably effective.

I shot the .55 Boyes out to 300 yds, which was as good as you could have got under range conditions with the basic sights fitted, however I would have loved to have been able to test the accuracy potential of this weapon with optical sights and hand-loaded ammo. Fitting optics would have been rather difficult owing to the top-mounted magazine and bolt action - some arrangement mounted on the left-hand side of the rifle would have been the only possibility IMO.

I would be really interested to hear of any accuracy work done with this weapon.

I read that they were used in early sniper experiments involving 50 calibre type rounds by the US ( probably because they were bolt action and could be considered representative of a heavy sniper rifle ). They were converted to straight .50 cal using an M2 barrel plus a telescopic sight "reasonably accurate shooting at ranges over a thousdand yards was possible" -quote from "Sniper one-on-one". It would have been interesting to have used it unconverted.

[Tony Williams]

The rounds was actually considerably larger than that of the .50BMG, being both longer and larger in diameter with a heavier bullet of I think around 900grs. in weight.
Not really - I have both rounds in front of me. The basic cartridge case is the same - the .50 BMG was the starting point for the design - with the calibre increased from .5 to .55. A belt was then added to the case. The case length is the same - 99mm - but the .50 is actually fractionally longer overall as the bullet is less blunt. Muzzle energy is very similar at around 18,000 joules (depending on the loading).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[GazB]

Is it just me Tony or does the 5.45 x 39mm Russian assault rifle round look a lot like a scaled down 14.5 x 114mm round?

And to me the Russian 12.7 x 108mm round looks a bit like a scaled up .30 06 round...

[DeltaWhisky58]

The rounds was actually considerably larger than that of the .50BMG, being both longer and larger in diameter with a heavier bullet of I think around 900grs. in weight.
Not really - I have both rounds in front of me. The basic cartridge case is the same - the .50 BMG was the starting point for the design - with the calibre increased from .5 to .55. A belt was then added to the case. The case length is the same - 99mm - but the .50 is actually fractionally longer overall as the bullet is less blunt. Muzzle energy is very similar at around 18,000 joules (depending on the loading).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Impressions were clearly deceptive. Although I have also fired .50BMG rifles, I was never able to compare like with like. I certainly felt that the .55 Boyes was putting out more energy, bearing in mind that the .50 BMG McMillan rifle I fired was an altogether lighter tool than the old Boyes - firing the Boyes semed more of a mini-artillery fire mission in comparison.

If you get the chance to play with one of these babies - take it. Ammo must be pretty scarce these days, I've never seen headstamps later than 1943 - but maybe it was made later than that in some corner of the Commonwealth or elsewhere.

[Tony Williams]

The original W Mk 1 loading for the Boys would probably kick harder than a Browning because it used a heavier bullet. The lighter W Mk 2 should have been much the same.

Tony Williams

[eggroll]

AFAC

They had one at the Dragonman shoot memorial day... it was a frickin mule!

EGG

[bas]

Pictures of a Boyes Mk I I took over the weekend:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22069

This one was made in 1943 by Inglis and marked "US Property" it is possible that it came to NZ via the Pacific theather.

[martinexsquaddie]

my grandfarther used one in france against panzers it was bog all use he fired 5 rounds and left it where it was as the tank kept coming :(
Nursed one old boy ex para who won a military medal for killing three tiger tanks with a PIAT !
his story he was wandering around in the fog after the drop walked into the back of a tiger put a round into it it blew up! ran into another tiger same result repeated a third time.
The PIAT the airsoft gun from hell its basically spring powered so technically its not a fire arm unfortunatly the rounds are.
fired a boys once not something I plan on doing ever again just get a friend to kick you hard in the shoulder

[Tony Williams]

The PIAT the airsoft gun from hell its basically spring powered so technically its not a fire arm unfortunatly the rounds are.

This is a common misunderstanding. The PIAT was fired by a separate blank cartridge and was definitely a firearm by any definition. However, the recoil was absorbed (to some extent...) by a powerful spring which acted on a giant striker. The recoil cocked this spring, so when the next round was fired the striker hurled forwards, and ignited the blank. The recoil first had to stop the striker's forward movement, then push it back again ready for the next shot.

Before firing for the first time, the striker had to be cocked manually and that was a b- of a job, with a real threat of back strain! However, after that reloading was easy.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[martinexsquaddie]

cheers for that never reallly could figure out how a PIAt worked

[idahoben]

I own a Boys AT rifle. With both the 55 Boys and the 50 BMG barrols. The Boys is considerably larger and more powerfull. I prefer to shoot it over the Browning. With cordite it iws a lot louder.

As for the kick, I don't find either that bad. About like a hard slug from a boxer. ;-) But then I'm an ex-boxer.

My problem is ammo. The browning is no problem as I have about 5000 rounds. But I only have 45 rounds of Boys. Anyone know where I can get some? And reloading equiptment & primers?

I love AT hand held rifles. I'm looking for any. I have a friend with a 20mm Lahti. But he won't sell. (Cant blame him) So if you know of anything, please let me know.

Ben

[GazB]

The 14.5mm PTRD or PTRS would be a good purchase today simply because the ammo is still produced as it is used in the KPV HMG. At 14.5 x 114mm the case is rather large and recoil would be very exciting, but long range performance would leave something to be desired. Most WWII ammo was blunt and designed for very short range work. Penetrating armour is close range stuff for these types of weapons so long range accuracy probably wasn't even a consideration. There were a few thousand Boys rifles sent to the Eastern front, but I doubt they were well received as they were considerably less powerful than the existing 14.5mm anti tank rifles. They would likely have been used in urban warfare for shooting through walls and light cover at human targets or down through the roofs of armoured vehicles, or through truck engines till their ammo was used up. I would expect they would then either be recalibrated to Soviet 50 cal (ie 12.7 x 108mm) or perhaps discarded.
The long barrels of the PTRD and PTRS were purely for velocity rather than range and would have made mediocre long range sniper type weapons without a huge amount of work to weapon and barrel.

[Durandal]

My friend's Boys in .50 BMG...
http://web.mac.com/thesw0rdofroland/iWeb/Site/2006_files/IMG_3623.jpg

I'd love to own one myself, though I think the .55 original, while very cool, has the turn off of being a DD and scarcity in ammo.

[HCV]

Would someone be able to tell me how much the magazine of the Boys weighed, empty and loaded? All sources I've seen only give the weight of the empty rifle. Also, has the round a tracer or incendiary component? Many thanks!

Cheers

HANS

[Durandal]

Figure the .50 M2 Ball weighs about 1813 gr.

1813 grain = 0.259 pound

x5

Plus, some sheet metal to go around them and a spring and follower which probably weighs about call it about .5 lb tops.

Around 1.8 pounds maybe? Maybe closer to 2 pounds. would be my guess.