CQB Muzzle up or down

[j-no]

First: I've never served in the military.
Second: Yes, I used the search function and was unable to find answer to my question.

I've watched CQB training videos from various service branches and noticed that, with the exception of the Navy Seals, most assaulters enter a room muzzle down and bring the muzzle of their weapon up onto target. The Seals however, with their lighter MP5s enter muzzle up and bring their weapons down onto target. Initially, I thought this was based on the weight of the weapon, but I saw several videos of Army SOF, clearing rooms using handguns muzzle down.

My question: what factors dicatate the best muzzle discpline when clearing rooms?

[pascalywood]

Down, always

[Ezekiel25:17]

Usually At The Ready. Muzzle down ready to aquire targets.

[Linedoggie]

If you are the say No.3 man in the stack and ND while clearing the Fatal Funnel with the muzzle down you are a hell of a lot less likely to kill your teammates than with Muzzle up.


UP, Crunchy and Bleeds Much

DOWN, Soft and Bleeds less(though always a chance hit to the femoral)

[Erik2a4]

Training and SOPs.

High or Low Ready. Different times for each.

[Battlebuds]

Training and SOPs.

High or Low Ready. Different times for each.


x2 Situation dictates


most assaulters enter a room muzzle down and bring the muzzle of their weapon up onto target. The Seals however, with their lighter MP5s enter muzzle up and bring their weapons down onto target.

We are taught, as soon as you enter the fatal funnel (door) its gun up.

[j-no]

In hunter safety courses I took when I was younger, I was trained ALWAYS muzzle down. So why do Seals enter a room muzzle up? What is the advantage?

[Battlebuds]

In hunter safety courses I took when I was younger, I was trained ALWAYS muzzle down. So why do Seals enter a room muzzle up? What is the advantage?


Hunting safety courses are alot different then training for a 2 way firing range.

Iam not a Seal, so I cant say, but I can tell you why we are trained to.

Muzzle up saves you the time of raising your weapon, if your weapon is already up, you only need to determine the threat, and fire (if necessary).

Not determine threat, raise weapon, fire.

Everyone is a threat until fully detained.

[Hispeed1]

Training and SOPs.
High or Low Ready. Different times for each.

+1 for high or low ready.

[Power_serj]

I learned low ready, 45 degree angle: Face on the buttstock, ready to bring the weapon 90 degrees. It's quick, easy and safe.

He demonstrates proper low ready for CQB: Face on the buttstock. All he has to do is slightly lift his weapon, & it will automatically be at his line of sight, put the weapon on Semi, fire off a controlled pair, then put his weapon on safe & lower his weapon 45 degrees.

[Albatross]

+1 for high or low ready.

Why do you even comment in here? Airsoft has its own section. Serious.


I was always taught down to up. It is all SOP though.

[Lt. James Anderson]

I learned low ready, 45 degree angle: Face on the buttstock, ready to bring the weapon 90 degrees. It's quick, easy and safe.

It is in training.
In real world it's up, trust me.
No ****ing with the safety either.
And no double taps, you shoot until target goes down.

[SE7ENSIX]

Yeah, we do it muzzle down and bring it up

[Power_serj]

It is in training.
In real world it's up, trust me.
No ****ing with the safety either.
And no double taps, you shoot until target goes down.

It probably depends on unit SOPs, but I was told that it was always low ready.

You will only bring your weapon up and put the weapon on Semi when you aquire a target and are ready to fire.

I said "controlled pair", which is a quick, but controlled pair of shots to the chest to make sure your adversary goes down. We specifically had a range just for CQB controlled pair. You walk and shoot, the target only went down after getting hit by two rounds.

[Hispeed1]

Why do you even comment in here? Airsoft has its own section. Serious.
I was always taught down to up. It is all SOP though.

Roger that. Sorry-just commenting on what a former US Army Ranger instructor and some police officers taught me somewhere.

[digrar]

Best to leave it to the people have been there and done that. That includes people that have just marched out of BCT. Wait until you see how it's done in the Battalions.

[Minardiau]

Delta/SASR/SAS/Green Berets/SEALS are watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZRzVOlPNYc

[Linedoggie]

Delta/SASR/SAS/Green Berets/SEALS are watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZRzVOlPNYc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMAcM9_02qA

[Evolv5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMAcM9_02qA

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/CLf6etX6rkk

I would imagine it would take slightly longer if you have to raise your weapon, then maybe let your weapon drop a lil. Ever so slight however.

[Pete031]

WIth the many different ways, IE: Low ready, high ready and threat ready... When the first man enters a room, he should square off to the door, so his plates are facing the threat.
His weapon should be at the Threat ready (finger off the trigger) and as soon as he moves to go to his corner, the number two in the stack will then go to threat ready, so when (as battlebuds eluded to) he is in the fatal funnel (doorway) he is able to engage any threats.
The number 1 and number 2 will be going to their corners so it is up to the number 3 and 4 to to be right on their asses and their weapons must be at threat ready as they enter the room.
At this point, noone should be lazing anyone, as the weapon is brought up as soon as the man in front moves out of the way.

[dave81]

I've watched CQB training videos from various service branches and noticed that, with the exception of the Navy SEALs, most assaulters enter a room muzzle down...
I believe this question was brought up once before. The answer given was that while running full speed loaded down with gear in a combat environment, tripping and falling is a distinct possibility. Since SEALs assault beaches, they raise their muzzles up so if they fall down (or simply duck down for quick cover), their barrels don't get filled with sand.

[MikeSierra151]

The way we were taught is everyone in the stack clears 12 Oclock as they enter the room at high ready, then moves to area of responsibility and scans sector.
But tactics are definatelty like A-holes.

[Asp]

It's what you got taught and what you get used to... we were taught low, so low I go...

By the way gentlemen, there is no such thing as a former Ranger.

[Pete031]

The way we were taught is everyone in the stack clears 12 Oclock as they enter the room at high ready, then moves to area of responsibility and scans sector.
But tactics are definatelty like A-holes.

For sure man, if you can take a shot to the 12 when you enter the room, do so. But if you pause at the 12 taking shots, instead of moving to you corner, first you will hold up the stack and second you will get blasted if there is anyone in the corner.

[Jippo]

For sure man, if you can take a shot to the 12 when you enter the room, do so. But if you pause at the 12 taking shots, instead of moving to you corner, first you will hold up the stack and second you will get blasted if there is anyone in the corner.

We do it like that too, no stop.

[Pappy]

It is in training.
In real world it's up, trust me.
No ****ing with the safety either.
And no double taps, you shoot until target goes down.

Ding ding, the Lt is correct in my opinion. I'm not going to go into our TTPs too much. But basically unless one of your guys is directly in front of you, you're pretty much at high ready. And shoot until the guy drops.

[Mordecai]

Guys, the OP isnt talking about the high ready. He is referring to hiport or 10-gun or any one of the other hip names for carrying a rifle/SMG with the muzzle up and vertical/near vert.

Since the OP isnt military how about we dispense with the TTP's on room clearing.

OP:

It isnt just the SEAL's who use hiport, though they probably use it more than anyone I have ever seen. As for the why's: it is SOP driven and situation dependent. It is also very safe, as it is very difficult to flag someone with the weapon hiported, unless there is someone on a catwalk.

Crip

[Pete031]

Guys, the OP isnt talking about the high ready. He is referring to hiport or 10-gun or any one of the other hip names for carrying a rifle/SMG with the muzzle up and vertical/near vert.

Since the OP isnt military how about we dispense with the TTP's on room clearing.

OP:

It isnt just the SEAL's who use hiport, though they probably use it more than anyone I have ever seen. As for the why's: it is SOP driven and situation dependent. It is also very safe, as it is very difficult to flag someone with the weapon hiported, unless there is someone on a catwalk.

Crip

Ahh crap, my bad. I didn't think he meant high port.

[Hippo]

Roger that. Sorry-just commenting on what a former US Army Ranger instructor and some police officers taught me somewhere.

no one is impressed. Stay in your goddamn lane

[Laconian]

Guys, the OP isnt talking about the high ready. He is referring to hiport or 10-gun or any one of the other hip names for carrying a rifle/SMG with the muzzle up and vertical/near vert.

Since the OP isnt military how about we dispense with the TTP's on room clearing.

OP:

It isnt just the SEAL's who use hiport, though they probably use it more than anyone I have ever seen. As for the why's: it is SOP driven and situation dependent. It is also very safe, as it is very difficult to flag someone with the weapon hiported, unless there is someone on a catwalk.

Crip

I have always used wpn inboard & depressed for entry/clearing (LE environ) for everyone but the #1 man who would be at the low ready. However, I have talked with some friends that have gotten back into the game and they report that several of the cool action guy groups are doing more and more stuff with the muzzle skyward from a mil or CT perspective. If that meets their needs rock on, to me from an LE view, inboard and down seems a bit more suitable.

[ibstolidude]

My question: what factors dicatate the best muzzle discpline when clearing rooms?
WHATEVER allows you to effectively kill or control your targets & the environment without overly endangering your teammates & non-threats.

The primary factors are your skill level, repetitive training, & "muscle memory", your SOPs, & the O.E. / situation.

Other than that, there is no one-stop, all-encompassing answer.

Sorry if this doesn't help as much as you would like - if you have a more specific question, you may find a more direct answer.

[BrianT]

We had a clearing technique where you would pan across the doorway, NODs down, with PEQ-2/5 flood light on, effectively clearing the 12-o'clock without ever entering the room. You would then have a guy on each side of the door(one just panned away from the stack to the otherside), and they would try to peer into the corners as much as they could without exposing themselves in the fatal funnel. This would effectively clear 90% of the room without entering it. One would then go to the hi-port, so the other could easily see in the dark that he was giving the right-of-way, and then they would just do standard BD 6 to make sure the corners where they can't see are cleared. This was only done when the target was breeched silently. Otherwise, it lacks speed and violence.

Often the low-ready is used in training as well because there are 'spectators' or 'instructors' in the cat-walks above the shoothouse.

[ibstolidude]

Work up a Battle Drill #6 - I thought that's "where we go a-ridin' into town, a whampin' and whompin' every livin' thing that moves within an inch of its life. Except the women folks, of course."

[ibstolidude]

. One would then go to the hi-port, so the other could easily see in the dark that he was giving the right-of-way
Good example. I always found it easier to raise a weapon's barrel 4-in up to not flag a buddy than 2.5-ft to the floor.... but then again, I'm energy efficient (read: lazy).

[digrar]

I'm energy efficient (read: lazy).

Tucking that one away for use at a later date.

[James]

I'm more familiar with muzzle down, but whatever lets you get the job done w/o flagging your team mates seems to be a good way to go.

That said, when I was on active duty we learned MOUT, not CQB: toss a frag in, then upon entry, shoot every single thing that moves.

[Laconian]

I'm more familiar with muzzle down, but whatever lets you get the job done w/o flagging your team mates seems to be a good way to go.

That said, when I was on active duty we learned MOUT, not CQB: toss a frag in, then upon entry, shoot every single thing that moves.


Ah, the Cold War. Times were simpler then. p-)

[JoaMei]

From what I know (Just safety, not any tactical use):

When the Ground is soft (In the field, or wood), muzzle down. When the ground is hard (concrete for example, solid rock), muzzle up.

Inside cocrete buildings or caves, I have no Idea...

[domokun]

That said, when I was on active duty we learned MOUT, not CQB: toss a frag in, then upon entry, shoot every single thing that moves.

I have heard about variation of same, before going in take a quick look first, if some thing moves toss another frag. Repeat until nothing moves. Then make entry. Repeat same procedure on each door, window, breached hole or other entry point.



Ah, the Cold War. Times were simpler then. p-)

But unfortunately times are changing and ROE's too change. Back then politicians talked and soldiers fought, now both groups talk with fancy words like collateral damage. It isn't cold any more and fancy terms give us all warm and fuzzy feeling.

[Slouch]

There was a 4RAR demo video getting around a while ago showing an entry with an MP5K armed operator with his muzzle up following a lad carrying a full size MP5SD6 muzzle down.

Just to confuse things even more for you lads.

[HOLLiS]

Ah, the Cold War. Times were simpler then. p-)


The fun of a free fire zone.

[BiZ]

There was a 4RAR demo video getting around a while ago showing an entry with an MP5K armed operator with his muzzle up following a lad carrying a full size MP5SD6 muzzle down.

Just to confuse things even more for you lads.

Generally speaking the technique taught is MP5K's from 'up, down to threat' and MP5's from 'down, up to threat' . That said, you'll find most on the Western side tend to (or used to) always have weapons 'up, down to threat' .


As others have pointed out, as with most things in life...it depends on who/what/where/when and sometimes even 'why'. p-)

[Royal]

Generally speaking the technique taught is MP5K's from 'up, down to threat'

A baby K climbs so bloody much you have to be hauling it downwards to hit anything p-)

[Johnny_H]

Up of course, if you point your muzzle down you may lose both the ball and the charge/powder.

[Erik2a4]

I've always been a fan of the Uday and Qusay method.

Identify hostile, prep with 14 TOW missiles, then enter and clear. At either the low or high ready.

[California Joe]

^ Erik wins...

[goose36]

It is in training.
In real world it's up, trust me.
No ****ing with the safety either.
And no double taps, you shoot until target goes down.


dam strait!

[dacanadianbomb]

I've always been a fan of the Uday and Qusay method.

Identify hostile, prep with 14 TOW missiles, then enter and clear. At either the low or high ready.

it just sounds so non chalant that whole "prep" thing.
Susan, could prep the target please when you have a minute = popping a few at4's into a building.
Kind of like calling a baton a bad guy tenderiser.