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Ordie
12-31-2008, 04:18 AM
Strategies for Mexico's drug war

Experts and public figures in the U.S. and Latin America offer a range of views, from stepped-up policing to legalization.
December 30, 2008


At times, the fight against drug trafficking in Mexico seems hopeless. The body count grows steadily, each massacre seemingly more gruesome than the one before. The flow of drugs to America and Europe continues virtually unabated. The Times asked experts and public figures in the U.S., Mexico and other parts of Latin America for their views on the problem and what should be done about it. The comments, compiled by Mexico City Bureau Chief Tracy Wilkinson, have been edited for space or clarity.

Fernando Rospigliosi


Former interior minister of Peru



The U.S. approach to fighting drugs is, I think, the only program that works. The problem, however, is that the United States is pulling back.

How can we have success in this fight? Within the National Police of Peru, I know there are specialized people. They could begin capturing entire bands of traffickers. You must attack on all fronts. It is police work, judicial work; you have to be well equipped and, unfortunately, we aren't.

The narco-trafficking problem in Peru has gotten worse in all aspects: the production of cocaine, violence and the corruption that comes from that. One of the aggravating factors was the launching of the [U.S.-financed] Plan Colombia, which started to work in the last decade and that has unleashed greater demand for Peruvian coca and cocaine. In addition, you have the increasingly strong entrance of Mexican cartels into Peru, and they have brought a kind of violence never before seen here.

The state attaches very little importance to this fight. There was no political will in the previous government nor in the current one, for various reasons, including fear and the scourge of corruption that reaches the highest levels. What does the state do? Small arrests, small seizures, but there is no defined, broad policy for confronting the problem.

-- From an interview with special correspondent Adriana Leon

***

Sergio Fajardo

Former mayor of Medellin, Colombia, a onetime drug- trafficking hub where violence has been reduced significantly

Colombia's experience is that you get rid of some narcos and others come in and take their place. Their weapons are destruction, death and the ability to corrupt many facets of the state. You can't leave the slightest space in our cities or legitimate society for them to occupy. That's very important.

The doors into the drug world are very wide for the unemployed and the youth living in the poor barrios. You have to close or reduce the size of that doorway. How do you do that? With opportunities, creating jobs in those barrios with education and by establishing the state's presence in each community. We learned that many who entered criminality because they had no opportunity will return to society if they can go to work.

From a distance, it seems to me that Mexico will pass through a painful stage. There is much ground left for them to cover. My advice is that the government should not wait until they win the war to look at what they can do in the communities that produce these people. They should be thinking about the poor boy standing on a street corner, looking at that narco doorway and thinking about entering.

-- From an interview with Times staff writer Chris Kraul

***

Maria Elena Morera

President of Mexico United Against Crime. Her husband survived a kidnapping, but his captors severed three of his fingers to pressure the family for ransom.

We have been stripped of our freedom to live without fear, stripped by the criminal action of lawbreakers and by the omissions of the authorities. The moment has arrived to cry out: Enough already! Our demands can be summed up in one phrase: to have good laws and make those laws obeyed by reconstructing our institutions:

1. A true national crime prevention policy that contains programs, city by city, that diagnose the problems and set forth remedies with time limits and budgets.

2. A unified national criminal database that uses top technology to collect, analyze and exploit information on crimes and criminals throughout the country.

3. Reconstruct federal, municipal and state police forces.

4. Reform the penal justice system. We want to unify the penal code so that all crimes are punished and pursued in the same way in all the country.

5. We want a national strategy against kidnapping, which should include the following points: fortifying kidnap investigation units at the federal level, and the state prosecutors at all levels; swifter prosecution, because slow justice is no justice; monitoring of convicted or accused kidnappers in prison; better tracking of cellphone use to pinpoint locations of users and their identities; empower authorities to confiscate assets of alleged criminals and break their financial structures; establish a national registry based on fingerprints of all people residing in Mexico; creation of a citizen watchdog, who has authority to denounce corrupt and inefficient officials.

-- From a speech this year

***

Cardinal Norberto Rivera Carrera

Roman Catholic archbishop of Mexico

To be a witness, like John the Baptist, is not easy. It can cost you your life, as it did him. "But we must obey God before obeying men." With this freedom, the first Christians spoke to their society and to the judges who imposed silence on them. In our circumstances today, the difficulties are truly enormous in attempting to fight narcotics trafficking, violence, injustice, the attacks on human life, and then to build peace.

The powers that have been implicated in these grave problems, as well as the feelings of rancor, confrontation and vengeance that the problems provoke, make finding a solution an arduous, urgent task. To remove people and human groups from confrontation and from violence requires dialogue that is respectful, loyal and free. It is the most dignified and recommendable form to overcome these difficulties of human coexistence. Those who are taking other paths are headed down the wrong road, and are mortgaging the future of our nation.

There are other routes to take to diminish violence in our country. It precisely does not involve making deals with criminals so that they can continue with their criminal conduct. For not one second would I allow that pacts be made with organized crime. You cannot make deals with evil. You cannot make deals with those who will use violence. Mexico will get out of this reality, but at the present moment we only see criminality growing. These moneys [from traffickers and other illicit sources] must not be allowed to enter the dynamic of power, because then we would have a state within a state.

-- Homily and Christmas message

***

Alejandro Gonzalez Iñarritu

Mexican film director ("Babel," "21 Grams" and "Amores Perros")

I have always thought that the only possible way to eradicate this plague is to legalize drugs. While the United States keeps consuming these amounts of drugs and selling guns the way it does, there's no way our country will win this war.

Once the tons of drugs cross the border into the U.S., there has to be a huge web of people involved in distributing and selling all these drugs. Where are these people? Who are they? Where are these "American cartels" and their leaders?

The economic and gun power of the cartels has corrupted the entire Mexican country. Like humidity, it has permeated every level, and the economic benefits of it are so strong that it has become a national income. The war is lost. To legalize drugs would bring another set of problems, but at least those will be more transparent.

-- From an interview with Times staff writer Reed Johnson

***

Terry Nelson

Federal agent for 30 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, the Customs Service and the Department of Homeland Security

Busting top traffickers doesn't work, since others just do battle to replace them. Despite the obvious failure of our drug control strategy, the public discourse surrounding this issue has focused primarily on continuing to wage the "drug war."

Mandatory prison sentences and interdiction efforts have very little effect on drug use. This year the World Health Organization found that the U.S. has the highest marijuana and cocaine use rates on the planet, despite having some of the harshest sentences.

We won't be able to expand treatment and prevention efforts until we stop spending so much money enforcing ineffective penalties, building new prisons and buying fancy cars and helicopters for law enforcement agencies. As we begin to treat problematic drug use as a public health issue, it will become much easier to prevent the death, disease and addiction that have expanded under the criminal justice mentality of prohibition.

But even with the best public health efforts, there will always be some who want to use drugs, and, as long as drugs are illegal, many willing to risk imprisonment or death to make huge profits supplying them. My years of experience as a federal agent tell me that legalizing and effectively regulating drugs will stop drug market crime and violence by putting major cartels and gangs out of business.

The Department of Justice reported [this month] that Mexican cartels are America's "greatest organized crime threat" because they "control drug distribution in most U.S. cities." If what we've been doing worked at all, we wouldn't be battling Mexican drug dealers in our own cities or anywhere else. There's one surefire way to bankrupt them, but when will our leaders talk about it?

-- Written comments submitted to The Times





Source:http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-drugwarsolution30-2008dec30,0,1906467,full.story

Andromeda
12-31-2008, 02:15 PM
I think the greatest problem in fighting mexico's drug war is the inadequate terms of punishment with regards to those who commit these crimes. What I am principally referring to is the lack of a death penalty for those who commit brutal crimes such as killing of government officials and innocents caught up in this mess. Also the prospect of doing real time in mexico is ridiculous when a drug trafficker can live 10years in jail like a king, with all the luxuries afforded to him as in normal life because he can just bribe the guards to get him everything he desires. They need to toughen up institute a death penalty, and make prison a real prison for these scum. The problem is that some in the government are working for the other side and oppose such measures.

cbreedon
12-31-2008, 04:42 PM
legalization is the way to go.... It is just like prohibition in the 30's. You had 'cartels' selling booze. Prohibition ended and so did the gansters, for the most part.

Walter Sobchak
01-01-2009, 05:22 AM
Maybe Mexico needs to import some Los Pepes from Columbia. They took care of old Pablo... that needs to happen everywhere.

Ghelp
01-01-2009, 12:27 PM
Maybe Mexico needs to import some Los Pepes from Columbia. They took care of old Pablo... that needs to happen everywhere.

It is Colombia man.

sinophile
01-01-2009, 12:38 PM
Give people legitimate alternatives and most will make the safe choice.

There simply are not enough economic opportunities for individuals and small businesses, and those that exist are restrained by corruption and lack of business-friendly legal and physical infrastructure.

Did "Los Pepes" really work? Sure Escobar fell, but did the narco-economy really fall? Of course not.

The North American union can't come fast enough.

Walter Sobchak
01-01-2009, 12:41 PM
It is Colombia man.

Sorry... I just broke the finger that made that mistake!! :oops:

Walter Sobchak
01-01-2009, 01:02 PM
Give people legitimate alternatives and most will make the safe choice.

There simply are not enough economic opportunities for individuals and small businesses, and those that exist are restrained by corruption and lack of business-friendly legal and physical infrastructure.

Did "Los Pepes" really work? Sure Escobar fell, but did the narco-economy really fall? Of course not.

The North American union can't come fast enough.

No, Los Pepes were not a solution. I was being a smart-a**.

Actually, Mexico began a revolution in the early 1900s, but it never really ended. PRI came into power as a broker of peace rather than as any popular plurality. Instead of fixing the rampant corruption that has always plagued Mexico, it only "institutionalized" it (a pun, courtesy of mi compadres).

In fact, there was a joke that said Luis-Portillo was a reformer because Echeverria already stolen everything. Look at PEMEX. I think it was in 1Q2008, they lost almost a billion dollars. How is that possible? Everyone knows.

PAN was a form of revolution, too... but it never goes far enough. Why so?

Well, having grown up on both sides of the border, I used to hear the old Villistas talk about the old days and how the revolution really changed nothing. I asked an old fellow why that was, and he offered an insight that most people have missed. He said that instead of changing the government in Mexico, people just go north and make a better life. I have many friends whose parents, grandparents and great-grandparents came from Mexico, and though they maintain familial ties there, are solidly American.

In that, he's right. All over the world, people eventually get fed up and change their government through either military or parliamentary means. However, the US is Mexico's safety valve, so when people really get fed up, they leave instead of fight the system. Mexico's government doesn't have to solve problems, because there is the mindset that del Norte can absorb the results of any domestic disruptions.

However, the little "disturbance" in Chiapas, needs to get the central government's attention. As the socialist reforms and subsidies are squeezed by Mexico's declining energy output, especially in Districto Federal, more people are going to start asking where all that wealth went and demanding accountability. The US is reaching the absorbtion point, especially for people who have no real skills except manual labor. Eventually, Mexico's revolution, started 100 years ago, will have to come to its own conclusion.

sinophile
01-01-2009, 03:54 PM
No, Los Pepes were not a solution. I was being a smart-a**.

Actually, Mexico began a revolution in the early 1900s, but it never really ended. PRI came into power as a broker of peace rather than as any popular plurality. Instead of fixing the rampant corruption that has always plagued Mexico, it only "institutionalized" it (a pun, courtesy of mi compadres).

In fact, there was a joke that said Luis-Portillo was a reformer because Echeverria already stolen everything. Look at PEMEX. I think it was in 1Q2008, they lost almost a billion dollars. How is that possible? Everyone knows.

PAN was a form of revolution, too... but it never goes far enough. Why so?

Well, having grown up on both sides of the border, I used to hear the old Villistas talk about the old days and how the revolution really changed nothing. I asked an old fellow why that was, and he offered an insight that most people have missed. He said that instead of changing the government in Mexico, people just go north and make a better life. I have many friends whose parents, grandparents and great-grandparents came from Mexico, and though they maintain familial ties there, are solidly American.

In that, he's right. All over the world, people eventually get fed up and change their government through either military or parliamentary means. However, the US is Mexico's safety valve, so when people really get fed up, they leave instead of fight the system. Mexico's government doesn't have to solve problems, because there is the mindset that del Norte can absorb the results of any domestic disruptions.

However, the little "disturbance" in Chiapas, needs to get the central government's attention. As the socialist reforms and subsidies are squeezed by Mexico's declining energy output, especially in Districto Federal, more people are going to start asking where all that wealth went and demanding accountability. The US is reaching the absorbtion point, especially for people who have no real skills except manual labor. Eventually, Mexico's revolution, started 100 years ago, will have to come to its own conclusion.

Great reply. Thanks for the info.

timetraveller
01-01-2009, 04:46 PM
It doesn't matter if you take out all the known Drug lords , there is always others ready to step in and take over ,Because CRIME DOES PAY !!!!!!!!


Let's fact it , the Russian Mafia was a term, outfit that wasn't even consider untill the fall of Eastern Bloc , yet now they are the Most fear of all . Where the power reaches the streets of America And some say have influence in High Office , The Banker whom was killed in Monaco hotel due to him being caught swindling from the Mafia .

And with Money that is made from Drugs . It's easy for those to turn a blind eye for the lure of a easy lifestyle , The same applies to those that Hunt endangerd Animals because there Horns etc will fetch a high Price .

Where there is a market for a product , there is Money to be made , Corruption is rife within Law enforcement from the ground Upwards , How many Judges are in the Pockets of the Cartels ?

History has always showed , Corruption will always be aprt of Society . If Drugs was made legal , Corruption would fall dramatic fashion , for the simple fact , the lure of earning extra cash . just isnt that all appealing ..When it was all illegal .

bigvig
01-01-2009, 07:39 PM
legalization is the way to go.... It is just like prohibition in the 30's. You had 'cartels' selling booze. Prohibition ended and so did the gansters, for the most part.
Finally some sense. woot But for legalization to work, it has to occur on either side of the border.

Russian_dude
01-02-2009, 07:03 AM
I think the greatest problem in fighting mexico's drug war is the inadequate terms of punishment with regards to those who commit these crimes. What I am principally referring to is the lack of a death penalty for those who commit brutal crimes such as killing of government officials and innocents caught up in this mess. Also the prospect of doing real time in mexico is ridiculous when a drug trafficker can live 10years in jail like a king, with all the luxuries afforded to him as in normal life because he can just bribe the guards to get him everything he desires. They need to toughen up institute a death penalty, and make prison a real prison for these scum. The problem is that some in the government are working for the other side and oppose such measures.

More of this tired old nonsense. Iran has the death penalty for dealing... and this hasn't stopped a massive amount of people using heroin (1 million junkies.) You will kill some poor junkies for trying to sell a few grams of grass? A naturally occuring plant? More fascist BS.

El Diablo Rojo
01-02-2009, 07:17 AM
Legalize drugs. You can never have too many junkies, stoners, tweakers crowding the streets begging for change.

bigvig
01-02-2009, 02:54 PM
Legalize drugs. You can never have too many junkies, stoners, tweakers crowding the streets begging for change.
In Portugal, drug use was only decriminalized (not legalized) and the number of drug users after 5 years remained the same as when drug possession or usage could result in jail time. Are you going to start smoking crack and join the ranks of junkies just because of a change in law?

Mordoror
01-02-2009, 04:03 PM
hit them where it hurts : i mean money

seize their properties, houses, bank account and use them to hire or buy some of their men
it will be long and painful but an all out only military/police answer is not the ultimate solution

Russian_dude
01-03-2009, 12:23 PM
hit them where it hurts : i mean money

seize their properties, houses, bank account and use them to hire or buy some of their men
it will be long and painful but an all out only military/police answer is not the ultimate solution

They are doing it already. Only pushes the dealers to sell more drugs to recoup losses.

ONLY solution is legalization.


Imagine outlawing *** unless for procreation. This is how absurd the war on drugs is.

EVERYTHING we put into our bodies is some sort of a drug. Why arbitrarily make some of them illigal?

Mordoror
01-03-2009, 12:34 PM
Why arbitrarily make some of them illigal?
because some are clearly more addictive and destructive than others

although you are right for some legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco) i don't see legalizing some stuff like crack, metamphetamines and such sh***t

Stars and Stripes
01-03-2009, 01:10 PM
Does any one ever read counter terrorism magazine? The current issue has a great article on this. http://www.iacsp.com/images/MAG_AngleNewoct2008.gif



Welcome to the Devil's Playground - The Current State of The Mexican Drug War
By Edward J. Maggio








Here is part of the article...from their web site here...

http://www.iacsp.com/latest_article.php


Submitted to: Journal of Counterterrorism & Homeland Security International
Vol. 14, No.4 Winter 2008

Welcome to Hell
May 27th 2008 was a sad day in Mexican history. On that day a botched police raid in the town of Culiacán turned into a massive firefight with Mexican drug traffickers. The majority of the drug traffickers escaped into the Mexican desert after killing seven police officers. The smell of gunpowder from the armor piercing rounds fired by the drug traffickers was still in the air a day later. On this dark day a harsh reality began to settle in among the Mexican people. The power of the Mexican drug traffickers now surpassed the government of Mexico. Consider that while the Mexican government's annual budget for federal security is $7 billion, the Mexican drug cartels traffic over $30 billion in drugs out of Mexico. Mexican drug traffickers have more money and more arms to protect a billion dollar plus operation. This is an illegal industry in which most of the drugs are headed to the U.S. on a regular basis.
This is the new Mexico under its leader Felipe Calderon. In places like Culiacán and the surrounding Mexican state of Sinaloa, it easy to view outward signs of Mexican drug trafficking. This part of the country has its own "narco-drug culture" and way of life among the people. Here local people such as those living in Culiacán are living on the profits from the laundering of drug money. Local police officers who work by day on the streets are then guarding drug lords and their shipments at night. The local people even take pride in their regional drug lords. When you visit some of the local bars in the area you are likely to hear some narcocorridos or folk ballads about the fabulous exploits of Mexican drug lords. These Mexican drug lords or culichis as they are known to the local people, enjoy celebrity status in their hometowns. Politicians in this part of Mexico exist to serve the drug lords due to the generous bribes they receive on a regular basis.
This is the devil's playground where lawlessness and anarchy rule supreme. Here two powerful drug groups, the Sinaloa Cartel led by Joaquin Guzman and the opposing Gulf Cartel led by former military commandos known as the "Zetas," kill each other and innocent people on a regular basis. With over 600 gangland style killings in this part of Mexico this year alone, the numbers will keep rising as the days pass. If these numbers weren't bad enough, try adding in the rising death toll in Mexico which is well on its way to reaching 2500 homicides by the end of 2008. Most of these horrific killings are ultimately related to the drug trade in Mexico.
Right now President Felipe Calderon continues to banter on TV that his government has the power to stop drug-trafficking. He may be a minority in Mexico, considering the polls in

newspapers in Mexico such as Reforma report that over 53% of the Mexican population believes the drug traffickers are winning the Mexican drug war.

The Response from Washington
The U.S. has acted quickly to help Mexico in this time of need. By helping, of course I mean it is throwing money at the problem. Congress recently approved a $400 million plus - 3 year package of aid for beleaguered drug interdiction forces. Most of these funds over three years will be spent on surveillance technology, helicopters, vehicles, and training tools. If this sounds familiar to you I am not surprised. This plan follows many of the same concepts used in Columbia to stop cocaine trafficking. It also raises a major policy question; should American tax payer money really be used to pay for the equipment that Mexico (with the fourth largest economy in the Western Hemisphere) should be paying for itself?

Dr. Edward J. Maggio, Esq. is an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice
Center for Security and Disaster Response Department of Behavioral Sciences
New York Institute of Technology. Email: emaggio@nyit.edu

Mordoror
01-03-2009, 01:32 PM
It also raises a major policy question; should American tax payer money really be used to pay for the equipment that Mexico (with the fourth largest economy in the Western Hemisphere) should be paying for itself?

this question always come on the table but could be reversed otherwise
Could the US afford to have Mexico or Colombia lose their war against drug given the fact that a large part of profit is done by selling that **** on US soil leading then to social disorder and criminality in US

i think that for the US taxpayer, pay equipment for Mexico is the less evil among both cases

Russian_dude
01-03-2009, 03:17 PM
because some are clearly more addictive and destructive than others

although you are right for some legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco) i don't see legalizing some stuff like crack, metamphetamines and such sh***t

You can EASILY get some very addictive drugs from your doctor. Meth is still prescribed for some ADD cases. Nicotine is incredibly addictive unlike weed and alcohol can make people very violent unlike say ecstasy (still used in Europe to treat PTSD in soldiers).

Their are MANY dangerous activities that people get "addicted" to like climbing buildings with no safety ropes and BASE jumping... yet we don't ban them. As long as the person is only a danger to themselves we should let them be. Otherwise it's totalitarianism.

Mordoror
01-03-2009, 03:20 PM
As long as the person is only a danger to themselves we should let them be

yes that's the point
and because of that even some drugs are depenalizable, others are not (what about somes going nuts with icemeth for example or crack ??)

Russian_dude
01-04-2009, 12:25 PM
yes that's the point
and because of that even some drugs are depenalizable, others are not (what about somes going nuts with icemeth for example or crack ??)

Ever tried lighting up a doobie or popping an X in front of a US officer?

Ever crack addicts if given free crack, will just stay home and crack out and are only a danger to the society when they try to get more of the drug.

Felix U. Gómez
01-05-2009, 06:08 PM
It also raises a major policy question; should American tax payer money really be used to pay for the equipment that Mexico (with the fourth largest economy in the Western Hemisphere) should be paying for itself?


Let me answer this question: Yes.
Given that U.S. demmand for drugs is the fuel that makes the cartels run, and that it is mostly U.S. taxpayer drug addicts that finance this whole problem, the U.S. should accept that theirs' is part of the responsibility for this whole problem. To add to this is the fact that the vast majority of the weapons used by the cartels and most other organized crime organizations in Mexico originate in the U.S. So, yes, I think that the U.S. should pay for part of the cost of fighting this war on the cartels, most definitely. Besides, $400 million being spent by the U.S. on aid to Mexico for this cause over several years is nothing when compared to the $7 billion that Mexico is spending on this on a "yearly" basis.

Just a few questions of my own. How many "billions and billions" has the U.S. pumped into Iraq and what good has it done? Is stability in Iraq that much more important to the U.S. than stability in Mexico? Why even complain about a measily $400 million over several years?