France's New Year's Tradition: Car-Burning

[jetsetter]

For much of the world, they became iconic of France's worst social ills: the burned-out carcasses of thousands of cars set ablaze during nearly three weeks of nationwide rioting in 2005. But as yet another orgy of automobile arson on Wednesday demonstrated, the torching of cars in France has not only become an everyday event; it's also now a regular form of expression for disenfranchised suburban youths wanting to make sure the rest of the country doesn't forget they exist. And their fiery presence is never felt so strongly as it is each New Year's Eve - the day of France's unofficial festival of car-burning. (Read a special report on the 2005 French riots.)

According to figures from the French Interior Ministry, 1,147 cars went up in smoke on New Year's Eve - a 30% rise on the 879 autos torched the same night in 2007. As often is the case, the worst-hit areas were the disadvantaged neighborhoods that sit beyond the suburban peripheries of most French cities. A total of 422 cars were burned in Paris-area housing projects, compared to 12 in the relatively well-policed Parisian intra muros. Other cities whose unemployment-racked, racially tense banlieues also lived up to their reputations for frequent car-burning included Strasbourg, Lille, Toulouse and Nantes. Across France, police arrested a total of 288 people on New Year's Eve (vs. 259 the year before) - though not all were charged, and many were apprehended for offenses unrelated to arson.

In a country where car-burning isn't a common symptom of socioeconomic unrest, news of so many automobiles being torched would be alarming - if not a sign of brewing insurrection. In France, however, word of the destruction that accompanied the evening the French call Saint-Sylvestre was met with a mix of Gaulic shrugs and low-grade peevishness.

In revealing the figures on Thursday, French Interior Minister MichÈle Alliot-Marie acknowledged that the tally of car-burnings had indeed increased over the previous year. Yet Alliot-Marie also said the enormous fleet of now carbonized vehicles shouldn't darken a New Year's Eve that was "unanimously considered mostly calm." Alliot-Marie also stressed that - in contrast to recent years - the first night of 2009 saw "no damage to public or private buildings." Perhaps, but that was probably little comfort to the people who were forced to walk or make long commutes on public transport after finding their cars melted down on Jan. 1.

Despite Alliot-Marie's rather upbeat depiction of the destruction, her boss - President Nicolas Sarkozy - endeavored to react in accordance with his hard-line campaign promises to impose law, order and state authority in even the most unruly French neighborhoods. But while he vigorously rallied to the side of the victims, his best suggestion for punishing the perpetrators (who are rarely caught or identified) sounded positively permissive. Rather than threaten the young arsonists with jail time, which his government has proposed for other juvenile crimes, Sarkozy recommended that they be forced to reimburse their victims for the damages - and be barred from earning a driver's license until they do.

Sarkozy's seemingly lax solution to tackling France's car-burning bonanza hardly reflects the gravity and scope of the problem. Nearly 43,000 cars were torched in France over the whole of 2007 - an average of almost 118 per day. Alliot-Marie stressed that the rise in the number of burnt cars on New Year's Eve 2008 came at the end of a year in which the total number of autos set alight in the first 11 months had decreased 15%, compared with the same period in 2007. But while annual figures may fluctuate, they've generally swelled since the late 1970s, when French suburban youths first started burning cars as a way to get the attention of society, the media and politicians.

Later the practice became an ambush tactic to draw law and fire authorities to the scene - where they'd then be attacked by gangs. Now the act works as a manner of daily protest against alienation, discrimination and the indifference of more affluent French society.

But another, less specifically-French, factor may also be behind the spike in car-burning rates. According to the National Observatory on Delinquency, as many as 20% of cars burned each year are suspected insurance fraud. If that trend, too, is on the rise, then New Year's Eve 2009 may be a veritable bonfire in France, as recession-bled car owners see the country's annual arson event as a chance to make some extra money.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090103/wl_time/08599186939200


Quite a few people would have been shot if **** like that happened here.

The United States also has a large immigrant population, illegal and legal. As the economy has taken a downturn we still haven't seen the mass type of unrest as seen in France. It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of how France deals with its immigrant population. Apparently the current tactic is not working.

[Telmar]

Quite a few people would have been shot if **** like that happened here.

The United States also has a large immigrant population, illegal and legal. As the economy has taken a downturn we still haven't seen the mass type of unrest as seen in France. It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of how France deals with its immigrant population. Apparently the current tactic is not working.

Please describe other aspects of the mass type of unrest please.

And do tell us what should be done to the immigrant population. As a whole of course, because with immigrants, why focus on the individual outburst of some when you can target the entire population as guilty.

For myself, I think that punishment for minors in France is unsufficient. But I am not cheering for the day when we will adopt as you seem to be suggesting a way of dealing with the entire immigrant population, even if it was cost effective. Edit: Not to mention that we should check if the wrong doers do not have French citizenship for most of them.

Nice flamebait BTW.

[LineDoggie]

Title really should be; France's Arab Population's New Year Tradition

[xav]

Keep in mind that a good 20 - 30% of these cars were burnt by their owners trying to get $$$ or a new car thru their inssurance.

[Telmar]

Keep in mind that a good 20 - 30% of these cars were burnt by their owners trying to get $$$ or a new car thru their inssurance.

LOL. Let me try.

I would ask Jetsetter or Linedoggie to be my insurance broker.

[gustav]

See? They start celebrating Christmas!! who said there was a problem of integration?

As long as they burn cars...I mean it looks big on television but I would like to compare the murder rates between France and the US, the latter being obviously better off than the former with its successful immigration and gun policies...

[LineDoggie]

See? They start celebrating Christmas!! who said there was a problem of integration?

As long as they burn cars...I mean it looks big on television but I would like to compare the murder rates between France and the US, the latter being obviously better off than the former with its successful immigration and gun policies...Yup, pull that **** in Texas and you'll have 3 burned Toyotas and a pile of spent brass near the decaying Youf's rather than your nations capital smelling of burning cars and paralyzed authorities......

[gustav]

Ah C'mon on it has just become a tradition now. Even well off kids do that today with their parents taking them back at the police station afterwards...

[Fenix]

Quite a few people would have been shot if **** like that happened here.

The United States also has a large immigrant population, illegal and legal. As the economy has taken a downturn we still haven't seen the mass type of unrest as seen in France. It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of how France deals with its immigrant population. Apparently the current tactic is not working.

I wonder what would happen if western immigrants or tourists would light up parked cars in
Dubai.

[m.i.t]

what is the legal punishment for car burning in France ?

[helomech]

what is the legal punishment for car burning in France ?

A prisoners meal of cheese and wine

p-)

[Walter Sobchak]

Maybe it was started by French car makers to stimulate business! Or, insurance fraud?

However, as the man said, "Pull that _____ in Texas..." We have great property laws here, especially after dark! Plus, we can demand not only trial but sentencing by a jury, and no judge can set aside a jury nullification, which is a very powerful right!

(BTW: Jury nullification is where a jury in a criminal case nullifies a law or statute by acquitting the defendant regardless of the weight of evidence against that person. It doesn't create a "precedence" but enough of these can cause a change in the law or an appellate court to apply that in other cases.)

[Telmar]

Maybe it was started by French car makers to stimulate business! Or, insurance fraud?

However, as the man said, "Pull that _____ in Texas..." We have great property laws here, especially after dark! Plus, we can demand not only trial but sentencing by a jury, and no judge can set aside a jury nullification, which is a very powerful right!

(BTW: Jury nullification is where a jury in a criminal case nullifies a law or statute by acquitting the defendant regardless of the weight of evidence against that person. It doesn't create a "precedence" but enough of these can cause a change in the law or an appellate court to apply that in other cases.)

Does it apply to minors? Because that is most of the time the case. And the law in France protects them (too much in my opinion).

Not to mention that french jails are full anyways and those guys are not considered first level criminals who need to be incarcerated (with wine and cheese for lunch and dinner).

As for the fraud thing, as Xav said, it's quite acurate. here is a translation from a french newspaper website


The Ministry of Interior does not seem to consider this hypothesis. Thursday January 1, he preferred to consider the impact of new measures taken by insurers to better compensate the owners of vehicles damaged. The premiums for the case have been multiplied by four. According to a spokesman for the Interior Minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, it may have prompted some people to set fire to their own car.

The catastrophic New Year tarnishes the annual review, which showed a decline of 15%. "Indeed, said the Ministry of the Interior, on the first eleven months of 2008, 36 700 vehicles had been burned, or 6 000 less than the same period in 2007."


http://www.lemonde.fr/archives/article/2009/01/02/voitures-brulees-du-reveillon-toutes-les-regions-concernees_1137186_0.html

[5./FjgBtl610]

....However, as the man said, "Pull that _____ in Texas..." We have great property laws here, especially after dark! Plus, we can demand not only trial but sentencing by a jury, and no judge can set aside a jury nullification, which is a very powerful right!

(BTW: Jury nullification is where a jury in a criminal case nullifies a law or statute by acquitting the defendant regardless of the weight of evidence against that person. It doesn't create a "precedence" but enough of these can cause a change in the law or an appellate court to apply that in other cases.)

mhm just saw this the other day -no it´s not in LA :) :
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=FbPtAkUrkaQ
yeah yeah alright don´t mess with Texas I know...
F.

[SHAM]

I didnt think it had to be any specific day including new years, its just kinda like on a whim tradition.
Like the old french violently going on strike on a whim tradition before it, truck drivers or fishermen blocking roads and ports on a whim.

[Olybrius]

always amazing to read such comments from people living in a country where rape and murder/rates are 3 times higher

[Ivan le Fou]

what is the legal punishment for car burning in France ?

Nothing really...

[Fiber]

It's the French version of the burning of the Christmas goat!

[bababooey]

Would I be too insensitive if I were to say, if you don't like living in France, get out. I am sure the Arab people have legitimate issues, but if they don't like how they are treated, buy a one-way ticket back to the old country and have a nice day. Honestly, its tough for alot of people nowadays, and I for one would move back to the states if I thought the French were tucking it in my a$$.

[Niels]

always amazing to read such comments from people living in a country where rape and murder/rates are 3 times higher
Yeah well, NOT IN TEXAS, SON. No crime at all there because every fool gets blasted. True story.

[Jobu]

You guys don't get it.

These are controlled burns. Much like firefighters will burn an area of forest in order to replenish the land and remove a source of fuel for what could have been a much larger conflagration.

France's streets will now be re-germinated with new Opels, Fiats, and Peugeots and all will be right in the land of l'escargot for another year.

[FlintHillBilly]

You guys don't get it.

These are controlled burns. Much like firefighters will burn an area of forest in order to replenish the land and remove a source of fuel for what could have been a much larger conflagration.



Ahh controlled burns i get it now. So when i watch on tv cars burning people pushing over cars and throwing rocks and flames, its all controlled rioting?

[gustav]

France's streets will now be re-germinated with new Opels, Fiats, and Peugeots and all will be right in the land of l'escargot for another year.

Yeah we found a not so subtle way to boost demand. p-)

And if Obama is really serious about saving the US car industry he should do the same by inaugurating a "burn your neighbour's car" day. :)

[Telmar]

Yeah well, NOT IN TEXAS, SON. No crime at all there because every fool gets blasted. True story.

IN TEXAS AS WELL SON.

Arson seems quite popular in Dallas. But St Louis and Detroit lead the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank21.html

[LineDoggie]

always amazing to read such comments from people living in a country where rape and murder/rates are 3 times higher Your right, Enjoy your holiday smell of Burning Peugot and the way bricks arc through the air towards the Gendarmes.....

Well I'm late for my Klan Meeting and then its off for a vigorous climb to the top of a Building with my sniper rifle to kill children and old people, puppies before lunch :roll:

[timetraveller]

First i even knew about this tradition when i seen it on the News for the very first time this year .

[oldsoak]

Your right, Enjoy your holiday smell of Burning Peugot and the way bricks arc through the air towards the Gendarmes.....

Well I'm late for my Klan Meeting and then its off for a vigorous climb to the top of a Building with my sniper rifle to kill children and old people, puppies before lunch :roll:

Make sure its the fluffy puppies with big eyes. You know the rules - hit a scrawny pup and you'll be holding the spittoon at the next chapter meeting....

[LineDoggie]

Make sure its the fluffy puppies with big eyes. You know the rules - hit a scrawny pup and you'll be holding the spittoon at the next chapter meeting.... Just got 3 Maltese's being walked by a Special Ed kid- I won the Lotto

[m.i.t]

A prisoners meal of cheese and wine

p-)


This can be considered as a promotion by arsons ...Punishment laws must be changed...
l remember movie "butterfly". That jail is still active?

[Mordoror]

That jail is still active?

no the jail in Cayenne, Guyana was closed because inhuman (more than 33-50 % inmates dying before reaching the second year of jail ....)

but it was another time though

[Mordoror]

the worst in this story is that they are burning their "own people's cars"
in fact the majority of the burned cars are in those "banlieue" which means cars of the lower/poorer class of the society, which means their neighbours

so here is why in fact nobody's bothering too much
(let's try such action Place Vendome and look the number of cops falling like a righteous vengeance angels on them in less than 5 sec....)

anyway, they are burning cars yeah but it seems that our US friends forgot what happens in some area of their own country (Detroit, Oakland, New Orleans, suburbs of Miami) with the amount of car highjacked, hulk of cars laying in the streets and others nice events like massive shooting in certain high criminality areas

at least when our youth riots we don't have to send the National Guard/Army and have several ten of them killed to come back to normality (riots in LA anyone ??)

[jetsetter]

It is the French response to such burnings that is the problem and the difference between the United States and France. There was a riot and in LA and it was put down and since then there has been nothing as serious. Things changed.

[Mordoror]

Dealing with riots look something very different in Europe and USA

riots, we have or had in France, UK, Italy, even in Nordic countries and it is very unlikely that they led to death of any rioters (when it was the case, it was at a number of one and immediately made the gov or at least the responsible minister to be overthrown)

riots are/were more viokently squashed in USA, leading in my opinion to a false quiet state. The cook is still boiling on a very low level though and civil unrest is may be not so spectacular than 300 hundred cars burned but still social problems are present in your country. Nothing says that an insignificant event cannot lead to a new setting ablaze (as in the European countries)

both response are not perfect and personnaly i don't see a correct solution except in a wonderful dream world with a lot of butterfly, fairies and elfs : work, money, appropriate home and appropriate living conditions for everybody

because riots are due to that : frustration, nothing other
nobody (or very few) people are waking up in the morning with the idea of burning cars and breaking windows
during our 2005 riots a lot of rioters were even not known from the police, they were not criminals at all, not even small drug dealers and not all were "angry white baby eaters wannabee muslims" but were sometimes average every day students from family with low incomes living in those "banlieue"

those who are guilty of that are the responsible for the urbanism maps and plans
the fact is very well known among animals : if you put a too much high concentration of rats in a box, at the end, they fight among themselves and when you move them in another boxes, they are so agressive that they still fight even if their living conditions were improved
people in these areas are trapped like rats (and yes that make an easier work for any fundamentalist or criminal moron that want to use these situations for their own agenda ....)

[Parisien]

people in these areas are trapped like rats (and yes that make an easier work for any fundamentalist or criminal moron that want to use these situations for their own agenda ....)

I don't like the idea of a ghetto or a trap, we did not force them to live there.

[Telmar]

...

those who are guilty of that are the responsible for the urbanism maps and plans
the fact is very well known among animals : if you put a too much high concentration of rats in a box, at the end, they fight among themselves and when you move them in another boxes, they are so agressive that they still fight even if their living conditions were improved
people in these areas are trapped like rats (and yes that make an easier work for any fundamentalist or criminal moron that want to use these situations for their own agenda ....)

Come on Mordoror...

Blaming the urbanism model of the banlieues buildings is a lame excuse for violence. Sure the buildings are ugly, a socialist dreamworld, a pure replica of what was built here with the communists (exactly same buildings in Bratislava, Prague, Warsaw, or Gdansk).

However, that being said, my parents were really happy to get into one when I was born. We lived in the banlieues that had ugly buildings, but with running hot water, a real bathroom and toilets. It was the first time my folks ever had something like that. Before, they lived in the center of Paris...but in an old flat that did not have toilets!!! That was the case for much of the town centers at the time. The banlieues was an improvement.

Owners and occupiers can be blamed for not taking care of what they had or what they had the privilege to live in compared to the people living in the centre of the towns.

Its easy now to consider we just threw the poor in there. And its a false opinion.

[Nobi]

This is why i am against a european union and schengen agreement, you guys let EVERYONE in and than you expects from us to marry them. :cantbeli::roll:
There is something serious wrong with your government.
The borders should be immediatly locked. Asap.
Plus those cultures don't belong to us.

[Telmar]

This is why i am against a european union and schengen agreement, you guys let everyone in and than you expects from us to marry them. :cantbeli::roll:

WE dont expect anything. You are the ones who tried to and succesfully joined Shengen zone.

Many French people are against Poland (or Slovakia for that matter) having joined Shengen (and the EU) for security reasons. A lot of strange people come through the Ukraine you know.

But they all go through Poland or Slovakia because Germany, France or the UK have better living conditions.

[Mordoror]

Its easy now to consider we just threw the poor in there. And its a false opinion.

i didn't say exactly that ...

but from an urbanism point of view (of course with an eye 30 years latter) it was a mistake to concentrate people so much by meter square

as i said study on animals are clear on that. Bypassing a certain density you lead to conflict/mayhem and even cannibalism (yet still not in the human specie but ...)

and you are right to say that first the "banlieue" were considered as above the old appartments without private WC or appropriate heating system you had in Paris. What the owners (state and private) are guilty for is is too have not took care of these little cities outside the cities

leading to their falling apart then to the falling of their price then to a logical concentration of poors
They were not thrown in but it was the logical way it had to go and it has gone

nobody forces nobody to live there but still the market make it like that (the price here are cheaper because of course of the bad state of the area/distance from the center of the big towns)

and i personnaly don't buy a sort of "genetic programmation" to be violent or not
we are a sentient specie so all is dependent of the education and the environment

here the environment is bad ...... guilt to the owners (private or state)
and the education is forgotten (guilt to the parents ..... who have become too permissive ..... how many around us would have been spanked for a little child bad action and how many of them actually are ??

personnaly if i had badly answered to a teacher i would not only have a punition from him but also a double or in bad days a triple dose home ..... for all these youth it is far from the case)

[Telmar]

i didn't say exactly that ...

but from an urbanism point of view (of course with an eye 30 years latter) it was a mistake to concentrate people so much by meter square

I would bet that there is less concentration in the Courneuve than in the 17th arondissement of Paris. There ais a lot of empty space around the buildings. Not exactly playgrounds but...

and you are right to say that first the "banlieue" were considered as above the old appartments without private WC or appropriate heating system you had in Paris. What the owners (state and private) are guilty for is is too have not took care of these little cities outside the cities

leading to their falling apart then to the falling of their price then to a logical concentration of poors
They were not thrown in but it was the logical way it had to go and it has gone

Those flats were made for french families with three children on average. It was a decent an honest proposal for the times. Unfortunately, the immigrant population after the authorization of the family reunion by VGE came in there with much larger families than the flats were designed for. The quality not being excellent to begin with was not able to withstand such intensive use.

One of the problems was that by mainly reserving the flats for rent, we openly gave way to those flats not being taken care of. My folks moved out because at one point, they were able to buy a flat on their own.

nobody forces nobody to live there but still the market make it like that (the price here are cheaper because of course of the bad state of the area/distance from the center of the big towns)

That is clear today. And it is quite sad. Mainly because it is not just the flats that are in poor shape, but the entire social environment where the police has difficulty protecting citizens.

and i personnaly don't buy a sort of "genetic programmation" to be violent or not
we are a sentient specie so all is dependent of the education and the environment

here the environment is bad ...... guilt to the owners (private or state)
and the education is forgotten (guilt to the parents ..... who have become too permissive ..... how many around us would have been spanked for a little child bad action and how many of them actually are ??

personnaly if i had badly answered to a teacher i would not only have a punition from him but also a double or in bad days a triple dose home ..... for all these youth it is far from the case)

Agree



See my comments. Have a nice evening.

[Nobi]

Edited my post Nr. 36.

[Telmar]

Edited my post Nr. 36.

No sh!t Sherlock. You edited it at least four times last evening.

But it is still pointless.

You may want to learn about illegal immigration instead of spending one hour editing a post.

Succesful "french bashing" requires a minimum amount of preparation.