Question about Bayonet use on modern weapons ?

[Britishhawk]

Im right in thinking you can still mount a bayonet on a M4 right?, but ive never seen any images or videos of US forces with bayonets fixed - So what do the Americans use instead of a bayonet in a room clearing situation where over-penetration would be an issue?

Also I know on many occasions the British forces fix bayonets and often have to use them in a'stan, but are they really an effective weapon in todays warfare and have some countries just abandoned using them? Any pics and info would be nice, thankyou. :)

[Triple2-11b]

Ive been to Iraq twice, and never even saw bayonets, they were kept in the arms room, most guys have knives to open MRE's so I guess that would work if need be, I had one dude grab the barrel of my M4 in his house, my guys were coming in so I didnt shoot for fear of hitting my guys so I used my new oakley gloves and beat his face in. I totaly forgot I had a knife on me. Oh and guys with m203's on their M4 cant mount the bayonet so thats another reason

[Mackie]

In Germany - No.

[Shadowstorm]

I haven't seen a lot soldiers in the world using bayonets except during parades and ceremonial purposes.

[Canadian Sig]

Guys who wear our issued Tac Vest in Afghanistan usually have the bayonette mounted on the vest. I never carry mine, it lives in my barrack box.

[Britishhawk]

thats quite suprising, ive read many news articles about soldiers performing bayonet charges in afghanistan which have proven to be an effective way of clearing enemy combatants from the trench-like ditches they have. There was even an article (which i think was on here too) about a soldier that killed 2 or 3 taliban with his bayonet in one go. Seems a bit shocking to see they still use the bayonet charge tactic in todays conflicts.

[Linedoggie]

Yup, bayonet fits just fine on an M4. The distance between the Flash Suppressor and lug is the same between an M4 and an M16 Series.

We issued them in Kuwait before the move north, but there werent enough for the whole company. had about 98 M9 Bayonets, and 5 M7's

We also had 3-4 M1917 Bayonets for the Winchester Trench Shotguns we had. What a thing guarding prisoners. The look on their faces when you have a 12 gauge shotty with 17" of gleaming steel fixed to it----Priceless for compliance, be surprised how many suddenly remember they speak English

There were Occasions we we fixed Bayonets during Cordon and Raids for the Pychological fear they instilled, but basically they opened MRE's and cut wires.

IIRC didnt some Argylls Fix Bayonets in Iraq and give some Muj the good news?

[Britishhawk]

Yup, bayonet fits just fine on an M4. The distance between the Flash Suppressor and lug is the same between an M4 and an M16 Series.

We issued them in Kuwait before the move north, but there werent enough for the whole company. had about 98 M9 Bayonets, and 5 M7's

We also had 3-4 M1917 Bayonets for the Winchester Trench Shotguns we had. What a thing guarding prisoners. The look on their faces when you have a 12 gauge shotty with 17" of gleaming steel fixed to it----Priceless for compliance, be surprised how many suddenly remember they speak English

There were Occasions we we fixed Bayonets during Cordon and Raids for the Pychological fear they instilled, but basically they opened MRE's and cut wires.

IIRC didnt some Argylls Fix Bayonets in Iraq and give some Muj the good news?

''OUTNUMBERED British soldiers killed 35 Iraqi attackers in the Army’s first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago.
The fearless Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders stormed rebel positions after being ambushed and pinned down.

Despite being outnumbered five to one, they suffered only three minor wounds in the hand-to-hand fighting near the city of Amara.

The battle erupted after Land Rovers carrying 20 Argylls came under attack on a highway.

After radioing for back-up, they fixed bayonets and charged at 100 rebels using tactics learned in drills.

When the fighting ended bodies lay all over the highway — and more were floating in a nearby river. Nine rebels were captured.

An Army spokesman said: “This was an intense engagement.”

The last bayonet charge was by the Scots Guards and the Paras against Argentinian positions. ''


That one right? p-)

[badly_packed_kebab]

Bayonets have been effective in extreme cases of close up violence in both recent times and less recent conflicts. In the Falklands for example, bayonets were used at Mount Longdon and other such major battles. It has been reported that Argie positions were even abandoned when they saw Paras, Marines etc coming up the hills with their bayonets fixed, screaming their lungs out. To my knowledge, some gurkhas charged an Argentine trench with their khukri knives and took it with fewer losses than one would expect from such action.

Instances of this have been reported in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The first bayonet charge since the Falklands culminated in a platoon of British soldiers charging around 35 Iraqis from the back of their warroirs and massacring the insurgents waiting to ambush them. This wasn't a one off either, soldiers regularly fix bayonets and get up close and personal with the enemy. It was detailed in the book 3 Para that Taliban try keep a fair distance from the Ghurkas because of the psycological nature of carrying bayonets/Khukri knives. So personally I think yes, bayonets are useful weapons for psycological reasons and that it's apparently very handy in combat.

When they saw the insurgents waiting in ambush in foxholes alongside the road, the four infantry sections in the Warriors, 28 men in all, dismounted, carried out a flanking manoeuvre and charged the insurgents with fixed bayonets.

Cpl Mark Byles, 34, from Portsmouth, who is awarded the Military Cross, said: "The look on their faces was utter shock. They were under the impression we were going to lie in our ditch, shoot from a distance and they would run away.

"I slashed people, rifle-butted them. I was punching and kicking. It was either me or them. It didn't seem real. Anybody can pull a trigger from a distance, but we got up close and personal." - Quote from Daily
Telegraph, 18/03/2005Edit: Oops, didnt see the post above, spent too much time getting a quote :oops:. Christ, I wouldn't like to be on the pointly end of a platoon of angry scottish soldiers with fixed bayonets.

[Amkus]

We also had 3-4 M1917 Bayonets for the Winchester Trench Shotguns we had. What a thing guarding prisoners. The look on their faces when you have a 12 gauge shotty with 17" of gleaming steel fixed to it----Priceless for compliance, be surprised how many suddenly remember they speak English

The M12 was still being used then?

[phigment]

ive never seen any images or videos of US forces with bayonets fixed

I just finished reading the book My Men Are MY Heroes about Brad Kasal and there are a few pictures in the book of Marines with their bayonets fixed during combat in Fallujah. I don't know whether or not they were actually used but they were mounted anyway. Something you may want to check out if you're interested in images like that.

[Linedoggie]

The M12 was still being used then?

We had somewhere around 9 Winchester M1200 trenchguns, and another 9 Mossberg M500A riot guns on issue per company.

The Winchesters came from a Armored unit in New Jersey. A 2404 form in the barrel of one showed a 1977 date of last use. Wood stocks and forends, ventilated handguard with sling swivel and Bayonet mounts.

The Mossbergs I personally picked up from West Ft. Hoods depot, were brand new Desert Storm Contract weapons in the boxes. Std. 5 shot riot guns with US Property marks

[Amkus]

From the way you've described them, sounds like they looked BA. I'm a fan of wood furniture on shotguns as opposed to the "tactical" trend.

[CombatBoots]

I remember a picture in TIME magazine with US soldiers standing in line, bayonets fixed and in front of them some crowd. And this was Iraq I believe.

[Erik2a4]

Seems to me that while the Bayonet assault course is great "fun", and I do enjoy smashing someone in the head with a gigantic q-tip during pugil stick training, out of all the equipment one can take on an operation a bayonet just isn't worth the weight and space.

It does work for riot control and prison guards and people respond accordingly.

Considering that room clearing sometimes turns into an assholes and elbows obstacle course with loaded guns, high-explosives and darkness I'm not sure I want sharp pointy objects added into the mix, but obviously METT-TC applies.

I'm sure at some point someone has had a moment in which they thought, "Gee, I sure wish I had my bayonet fixed." However, one can't plan for every conceivable circumstance, nor carry enough equipment to be prepared for everything, and I think it's more likely that I would trip, fall and impale myself with my fixed bayonet...my ego never to recover...than I would thrust, parry and whirl.

Additionally, there is only so much training time in a given year, and I'd rather focus on more utilitarian and perishable skills such as marksmanship, combatives, physical fitness, land navigation, combat lifesaver, call for fire, equipment maintenance, battle drills, etc., than bayonet drills.

This is by no means critical of the Argylls in Iraq, or any unit that chooses to carry and fix bayonets, it's simply my view that it's an additional tool in the toolbox, not a fundamental necessity. However that is subject to change, as war has a funny habit of making one see all kinds of wacky and wild ****.

To answer your question, though, if over-penetration is a primary concern, then the room clearing would generally be done by specific units who do that kind of mission. They, however, would also not use bayonets, as bayonets generally do not have much of an effective engagement range.

[El Diablo Rojo]

I've seen plenty of photos of Rangers/82nd in Panama with bayonets fixed. 19 years ago count?

[HOLLiS]

Bayonets are psychological weapon today. Originally it made a musket a pike. One shot and a 20 second + reload, the soldier needed more. It was standard part of a soldiers weaponry. Times changed, multi-fire rifles came into play. The days of mass attacks faded and so did the bayonet as a standard equipment.

In riot control it offers some thing special. A rioter may not think or believe he will be shot, but that blade seems very likely to slice into him.

In rare cases as in the Falkland Islands the bayonet combined with a very brash and daring move, did the job and caused the Argentines to panic. A knife is more a tool than a weapon. It has the ability to be used as a weapon if needed, so does the E-tool, and what every a soldier can use.

[velvet-cream]

As someone has mentioned on the forum before, only half the section can even mount a bayonet. Two carry minimi, another two carry M203s, and the balance are left with rifles which can mount a bayonet (This is for Australia, although this applies to most other western Armies).

As far as weapons go, I would rather save the space and weight for a pistol. This is not to say the "combat knife" should not be carried as it has other purposes, such as wire cutters, etc.

[lt tahoe]

Room clearing isn't a good application, but if you think about it, Iraqis are fairly used to having guns waved at them--so it isn't always a good deterrent. Stick a big knife on the end of it, and that gets their attention more.

So, probably better for crowd control than anything else, but still effective.

[Linedoggie]

As someone has mentioned on the forum before, only half the section can even mount a bayonet. Two carry minimi, another two carry M203s, and the balance are left with rifles which can mount a bayonet (This is for Australia, although this applies to most other western Armies).

As far as weapons go, I would rather save the space and weight for a pistol. This is not to say the "combat knife" should not be carried as it has other purposes, such as wire cutters, etc.

If your going to shed the bayonet, screw the handgun as well.

It takes a lot of training to be good with a handgun,and even at the end of it, its only good to 75M max. For the same weight/space on the belt you could carry another 4 -30 rd Mags which are much more effective than 15 - 9mm rounds

[Royal]

To my knowledge, some gurkhas charged an Argentine trench with their khukri knives and took it with fewer losses than one would expect from such action.

I have no desire to denigrate 1/7 Gurkhas (or their colleagues in the Brigade, for whom I have enormous respect) but they did no such thing. They took Mount William unopposed after the Scots Guards assaulted Tumbledown and Lt Col Rose negotiated the Argentine surrender. They ahd been under arty fire before then and conducted ops to round up isolated groups of PW afterwards, but they conducted no assaults.


as bayonets generally do not have much of an effective engagement range.

Tell that to the Hun on the receiving end of my Grandfather's Short Mag Lee Enfield :D


In rare cases as in the Falkland Islands the bayonet combined with a very brash and daring move, did the job and caused the Argentines to panic.

In many cases down south bayonets were used because troops couldn't physically carry the ammounts of ammo required. Yes, of course there was a psycological effect (amplified by being used on a full-sized rifle), but it was also a case of bitter necessity.

[RAFREGT]

this thread almost feels blasphemous! Of course bayonets are needed...nothing like the threat of cold steel to put the willys up em!:fork:p-)

[Erik2a4]

Tell that to the Hun on the receiving end of my Grandfather's Short Mag Lee Enfield :D


I stand corrected. If one is equipped with a battle rifle the size of a medieval halberd with a pointy short sword attached to the front, then yes, the engagement range is extended.

It is further extended if there is a squaddie attached to said battle spear with a speedy pair of legs.

Odds are I would immediately offer unconditional surrender to your grandfather even if he was armed only with harsh language and a battered mess tin. p-)

[bababooey]

Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

[RAFREGT]

Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.
100% the truth.

[ibstolidude]

Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.I tried telling my old girlfriend that about herpes....oddly, it didn't work.

[Faheywitane]

As someone has mentioned on the forum before, only half the section can even mount a bayonet. Two carry minimi, another two carry M203s, and the balance are left with rifles which can mount a bayonet (This is for Australia, although this applies to most other western Armies).

As far as weapons go, I would rather save the space and weight for a pistol. This is not to say the "combat knife" should not be carried as it has other purposes, such as wire cutters, etc.

Its quite possible to mount an m203 and bayonet on a styer.
Simply turn the lug upside down.

[bababooey]

I tried telling my old girlfriend that about herpes....oddly, it didn't work.

You should have buttered her up with flowers first...

[N-G-F-O]

You should have buttered her up with flowers first...
Err, negative ghostrider. What he should have done was butter her up with Zovirax!

[wholagun]

Ive been to Iraq twice, and never even saw bayonets, they were kept in the arms room, most guys have knives to open MRE's so I guess that would work if need be, I had one dude grab the barrel of my M4 in his house, my guys were coming in so I didnt shoot for fear of hitting my guys so I used my new oakley gloves and beat his face in. I totaly forgot I had a knife on me. Oh and guys with m203's on their M4 cant mount the bayonet so thats another reason

Does the US army not use knives as the bayonet, or are you guys issues with a longer blade in addition to the standard knife ? In Polish army the knife can be placed on barrel and becomes the bayonet



Here you can see the Polish army knife, which I think is pretty standard for all former Warsaw Pact members but im not 100% sure on that, there is a loop on the knife for attaching it to the barrel



Marine issued knife / bayonet ????

[Erik2a4]

It's the same in the US. The M9 Bayonet is issued and does attach to the M4/M16 series.

We just rarely use them, if simply because a leatherman does nearly the same thing, is much smaller, and weighs less.

Besides, the M4 isn't much of a bayonet fighting platform anyway.

Now if someone would invent a rocket-propelled chainsaw bayonet, then yes, I would use that. I think what the mountain man was referring to was using folding pocket knives to open MREs.

[wholagun]

It's the same in the US. The M9 Bayonet is issued and does attach to the M4/M16 series.

We just rarely use them, if simply because a leatherman does nearly the same thing, is much smaller, and weighs less.

Besides, the M4 isn't much of a bayonet fighting platform anyway.

Now if someone would invent a rocket-propelled chainsaw bayonet, then yes, I would use that. I think what the mountain man was referring to was using folding pocket knives to open MREs.

is a pistol standard issue for all infantry ?

[Triple2-11b]

No, Officers and senoir NCO's have the M9 pistol in my unit, Hell my platoon only has one M9

[velvet-cream]

If your going to shed the bayonet, screw the handgun as well.

It takes a lot of training to be good with a handgun,and even at the end of it, its only good to 75M max. For the same weight/space on the belt you could carry another 4 -30 rd Mags which are much more effective than 15 - 9mm rounds

Yes, I would much rather have a spare magazine (for the rifle) than a pistol. But that's assuming your primary weapon (rifle) is still functioning.

If we are talking about a secondary weapon such as a bayonet or pistol, i would rather carry a pistol. Yes, I know a bayonet doesn't run out of ammo like a pistol and in theory could kill an indefinite number of people. But I would still rather have a pistol with a limited number of rounds than a bayonet.... my 2 cents.

[velvet-cream]

Its quite possible to mount an m203 and bayonet on a styer.
Simply turn the lug upside down.

I have yet to see a steyr with a bayonet lug mounted in front of the interbar. Although in theory, the lug could be mounted off centre like the carbines in 3RAR.

But I haven't seen it yet...

[Faheywitane]

I have yet to see a steyr with a bayonet lug mounted in front of the interbar. Although in theory, the lug could be mounted off centre like the carbines in 3RAR.

But I haven't seen it yet...

When the M203 was introduced into Irish service, I remember there was a picture in the Defence Forces Magazine of a steyr with an M203 under the barrel and a bayonet above it ie. the lug had been loosened twisted 180 degrees and locked in place so the bayonet could be mounted upside down
on top of the barrel. I cant get my hands on the picture at the mo.

[Erik2a4]

No, Officers and senoir NCO's have the M9 pistol in my unit, Hell my platoon only has one M9

That sounds like your CO, BN XO, BN Maintence Warrant's fault. By TO&E you should have M9s for both the M240 gunners. If one is not there or deadlined then it should automatically be on the 2404 report and automatically ordered as an end-item through the BN's support company.

I'm undecided on whether or not Infantry should be issued secondary weapons. If the training is there, then by all means, yes. However, it does require training, it is more weight and space, and as Line pointed out is more than likely less useful than more mags in most engagements.

[Schad]

We were never issued with bayonets - probably for historical reasons and due to effectiveness - are there any other armed forces that no longer issue as well?

[HollywoodMarine]

Marine issued knife / bayonet ????

Nope! What you see above is US Army issue. Below is what US Marines are issued, the M10 (USMC OKC 3S Ontario Marpat) Combat Bayonet.



One of the few times you'll get to see bayonets attached to rifles...