Bringing your own weapon to war?

[alexishere2007]

So I recently saw a discussion on another forum that bringing your own weapon other than military issue is illegal. Is this right? What are the consequences of bringing your own weapon i.e. pistol, rifle?

[sepheronx]

Most likely due to standards in the military, that some rifles may not be considered adequate.

[Hollis]

So I recently saw a discussion on another forum that bringing your own weapon other than military issue is illegal. Is this right? What are the consequences of bringing your own weapon i.e. pistol, rifle?


Well, Depending on the size of your Gunny's boot that will be stuck some where that the sun does not shine, not recommended for the average grunt.

[ibstolidude]

So I recently saw a discussion on another forum that bringing your own weapon other than military issue is illegal. Is this right? What are the consequences of bringing your own weapon i.e. pistol, rifle?
Punishment under UCMJ. Usually taking there is much easier than brining home.

[alexishere2007]

Most likely due to standards in the military, that some rifles may not be considered adequate.


what if say in the US Army the standard rifle is an M4 right? So say I had an M4 type carbine say a KAC SR-16 basically the same thing right.. so would it still be illegal?

[LineDoggie]

So I recently saw a discussion on another forum that bringing your own weapon other than military issue is illegal. Is this right? What are the consequences of bringing your own weapon i.e. pistol, rifle?


UCMJ if your American. Violation of Centcom General Order #1

[LineDoggie]

what if say in the US Army the standard rifle is an M4 right? So say I had an M4 type carbine say a KAC SR-16 basically the same thing right.. so would it still be illegal?

And what happens when they decide to do a Serial Number muster/Sensitive Items Check and you have a weapon not on the Books?

UCMJ

[ibstolidude]

what if say in the US Army the standard rifle is an M4 right? So say I had an M4 type carbine say a KAC SR-16 basically the same thing right.. so would it still be illegal?
Yes & clearly defined as such. Prior to the military understanding that there were 12 hours of darkness in any given theatre, many used to use personally owned weapon components, like M9 slides with trijicon sights, etc. Even that was a "no-no."

Whether or not you get caught or if anyone will care will depend on a myriad of factors.

[alexishere2007]

And what happens when they decide to do a Serial Number muster/Sensitive Items Check and you have a weapon not on the Books?

UCMJ

lol I see.. are there any exception such as special forces?

[Albatross]

lol I see.. are there any exception such as special forces?


Not to my knowledge, they do use bolt ons and other goodies from what I understand, the weapon itself is issued.

[Red River]

So I recently saw a discussion on another forum that bringing your own weapon other than military issue is illegal. Is this right? What are the consequences of bringing your own weapon i.e. pistol, rifle?

I'm pretty sure it illegal or at the very least against regs. Besides then you would have to bring your own ammo unless it was the same caliber as what was issued, if anything broke you would have to replace it out of pocket, it sounds like it would be too much of a inconvenience in my opinion. However I do believe US Special Forces are allowed to choose to modify there weapons as they please, which allows them some leeway and they can choose from more options then grunts.

My dad however used to tell me this story though that back in early '80s when he was an EWO on B-52s in Louisiana that the aircraft gunner on his crew was packing some heat when they pulled ALERT once a month as part of the rotation. Supposedly the gunner smuggled an UZI in his flight bag onto the ALERT Pad and stowed it in the aircraft with the rest of his gear. My dad said the gunner used to say he wasn't getting shot down over the Soviet Union with just a .38 revolver at his side.

[alexishere2007]

Not to my knowledge, they do use bolt ons and other goodies from what I understand, the weapon itself is issued.

is this only for special forces?

[bababooey]

Aircrew in the USAF was authorized to carry personal sidearms during the first Gulf War. They put a stop to it when guys were hanging nickel-plated, .44 caliber, six-shooters off their hips.

[DizBukHaPeter]

No point in bringing your own firearm when the military has all the goodies like full auto firearms and explosives.

[Roy Batty]

Most likely due to standards in the military, that some rifles may not be considered adequate.

Thanks for living up to your user title........

[ibstolidude]

lol I see.. are there any exception such as special forces?
The rules be the rules - and G.O.'s are just that (although there are written exceptions); but again, someone must enforce those rules - a responsibility that falls upon a units command.

If you are asking if the "average Joe" in a Special Forces unit can just decide that today is "pack your own UMP & hunting rifle off to Iraq" day - No. That said, many units have a myriad of weapons available to them - as well as those available in country. In A-stan & early in Iraq, all kinds of things were available, it might not work when you needed it most, but you could find or purchase anything.

Units, such as a US Special Forces unit, will generally have the required tools for the job available or they will procure them off the self or through other means.

Generally speaking, the DOD will not OK you bringing a personally owned weapon to war - that isn't to say that "Joe" won't bring it anyway, or someone won't look the other way.

[Red River]

Aircrew in the USAF was authorized to carry personal sidearms during the first Gulf War. They put a stop to it when guys were hanging nickel-plated, .44 caliber, six-shooters off their hips.

Well the standard issue sidearm for USAF crews up until the early '90s was a .38 revolver from what I've heard. So it makes sense that they would be allowed to carry what they liked.

[LineDoggie]

lol I see.. are there any exception such as special forces?

IIRC from my Old Psg, who was 5th Grp. for 12 years ending in 2000 "IF" a team needs such things, they can be Purchased with Goverment funds. Its more about Legalities and such.

When at Hood a rumour stirred that you could buy a sidearm and bring it, the ensuing madness was hysterical. The Pawn shops in Killeen were mobbed.


We had people looking to buy Chrome plated Desert Eagles in .50AE, S&W M29's in Dirty Harry Barrel lengths, Mauser Broomhandles, and one schmuck who was about to buy a Japanese Nambu type 14.

All US Issue Small Arms and Ammunition are Legal according to the Laws of land warfare.

Shoot a Muj with a Colt .357 Python using a Hollowpoint and you can kiss your ass goodbye, because you will be making Code Alpha Bags at USDB for some time.

[sepheronx]

Thanks for living up to your user title........

yeah, ok. Whatever. I am kind of throwing out there of what may be a possibility, not like I served in the US army.

[chefjavier]

If I had to go to Afghanistan. I would use the M-14 with scope and Kimber .45ACP pistol.

[alexishere2007]

Browning 1919A4 lol

[Hollis]

If I had to go to Afghanistan. I would use the M-14 with scope and Kimber .45ACP pistol.


I think I would prefer a A10 Warthog. I did my share of humping. Next war, I want to see it from the air. A10 seems to fit that bill.

[Lt. James Anderson]

I think I would prefer a A10 Warthog. I did my share of humping. Next war, I want to see it from the air. A10 seems to fit that bill.

Nothing wrong with humping (when you're young). It's good for you. And Afghanistan is a perfect place for such a thing. Fresh air, awesome scenery, just beautiful ... What more can a man ask for (maybe some good beer)? ... :)

I'd use the same I carried when I was there - M203 and M240.

[Yarrick2]

I think I would prefer a A10 Warthog. I did my share of humping. Next war, I want to see it from the air. A10 seems to fit that bill.
IIRC there was some talk about making the warthog carrier operable (I think it was for the two-seater) so that the corps could have some real close air support. or that may have been the dreams of a crazy teenager, great idea either way.

[Schad]

I carried a CZ 75 9mm para as a personal weapon for a few years because side arms were not issued and you HAD to be armed when wandering around town in civvies on a weekend. Carrying a R4/Galil was a massive pain in the arse on a Sat night.

The main problem with personal weapons is that you tend to look after them too much - Oooh it's scratched!! - also who knows if the damn things are to milspec - couple of guys carried Ruger Mini's but frankly the issue weapons were far better.

Far better to get the bog standard and buy the armourer a case or bottle and get it sighted and set up in terms of stock length for your size and any other goodies he can do.

[California Joe]

yeah, ok. Whatever. I am kind of throwing out there of what may be a possibility, not like I served in the US army.

Then why are you running your cockholster? You, like half of the other posters that aren't BTDTs, have no knowledge of the subject matter at all. The very premise of the thread is a stupid bit of mental wannabee masturbation as it is, it doesn't really need suppositions from people that know absolutely nothing.

[chefjavier]

I think I would prefer a A10 Warthog. I did my share of humping. Next war, I want to see it from the air. A10 seems to fit that bill.
You do have a pointp-) who like to hump the mountains.. What about using the AC-130 Spectre Gunship.p-)

[chefjavier]

I carried a CZ 75 9mm para as a personal weapon for a few years because side arms were not issued and you HAD to be armed when wandering around town in civvies on a weekend. Carrying a R4/Galil was a massive pain in the arse on a Sat night.

The main problem with personal weapons is that you tend to look after them too much - Oooh it's scratched!! - also who knows if the damn things are to milspec - couple of guys carried Ruger Mini's but frankly the issue weapons were far better.

Far better to get the bog standard and buy the armourer a case or bottle and get it sighted and set up in terms of stock length for your size and any other goodies he can do.
How come you want to use the CZ 9MM? 115 grain:roll:

[jimmyboots]

Met a C130 crew chief in 2004/2005 from Al Asad that carried a Kimber 1911 as his sidearm. He was a older guy that really hated the M9. Wore it on a custom belt and holster. Very cool guy. Lots of people checked in AR15 uppers with theyre armory, especially those of us that were always in a truck with an M16a2. Bring it out there with you or order it, just let the armorer know, and if Gunny was cool with it then no sweat.

[Jippo]

How come you want to use the CZ 9MM? 115 grain:roll:

CZ 75 shoots any 9mm Para ammunition, not just 115 grain. It is legend in pistols, and still one of the best ones around, so what is the problem?

[Schad]

How come you want to use the CZ 9MM? 115 grain:roll:

What Jippo said...

[playtym]

But guys.... it's not a .45! p-)

[Roy Batty]

I'm bringing a potato cannon to my next war..................for shue

[trunk_munkey28]

I'm bringing a potato cannon to my next war..................for shue

Perfect for keeping the hajji cabs off your ass on Ring Road eh? lol

[NZPumpkin]

what about optics? are yo uallowed to use your own or do you have to use issued ones:?

[Roy Batty]

I use my own optics......

[NZPumpkin]

just magnifier thou right?
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/7519/toolszw6.jpg

[Roy Batty]

Yup....but some of our guys use their own Acogs as well...

[zonk]

I use my own optics......

i use my own optics also, I catch **** for it but it's better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it...anything is possible out here

[LineDoggie]

what about optics? are yo uallowed to use your own or do you have to use issued ones:?

That I did use. We were Issued EO Tech's but I was more comfortable with the Aimpoint, so when I went on leave I brought it back and zeroed it. But again, Common sense dictates. I saw a SAW gunner from the 256th BCT mount a Deer Hunting scope on his SAW, thats just stupid

[bababooey]

Ship me to war with a Mossberg 500 with 00 buckshot, a bible, and a case of Jack Daniels.

[LineDoggie]

ship me to war with a mossberg 500 with 00 buckshot, a bible, and a case of jack daniels.

590 ftw...............................

[Roy Batty]

870.......

[bababooey]

Glad to see some pump action shuck-shuck fan's in the audience..

Pump action shotgun STRONG!

[NZPumpkin]

That I did use. We were Issued EO Tech's but I was more comfortable with the Aimpoint, so when I went on leave I brought it back and zeroed it. But again, Common sense dictates. I saw a SAW gunner from the 256th BCT mount a Deer Hunting scope on his SAW, thats just stupid

yeah i can imagine, machine guns are meant to spray, and an eotech/aimpoint would be perfect for that,

out of interest, (as i have no experience with one), how acurate are the SAW's? and for that matter, the M240's?
could you actually fire it one shot at a time and be on target?

[NZPumpkin]

Ship me to war with a Mossberg 500 with 00 buckshot, a bible, and a case of Jack Daniels.

rem 870, playboy and a case of tequila :)

[Roy Batty]

Dominion Arms Grizzlie, A copy of Hustler, and a bottle of Crown Royal

[trunk_munkey28]

Dominion Arms Grizzlie, A copy of Hustler, and a bottle of Crown Royal

Canadian Huslter or American Hustler lol?

[offspring]

I'm bringing a potato cannon to my next war..................for shue

how about some meat with those potatoes?

[LineDoggie]

how about some meat with those potatoes?
You like the meat, huh?:)

[HollywoodMarine]

If it allows my guys to kill the enemy faster, I personally don't care what they bring to fight. The problem with bringing unauthorized personal weapons and altering issued weapons are d1ck head officers. They will crucify any enlisted swinging d1ck under the UCMJ, from keeping them from their next promotion.

[bababooey]

You like the meat, huh?:)

I think their is the Seinfeld thread if you wanna start talking about meat...Say no to buttp-)'s...

[offspring]

You like the meat, huh?:)

i shows through doesnt it? to be honest i'm more akin to fish and fish related topics...DELTA FTW

[bababooey]

If it allows my guys to kill the enemy faster, I personally don't care what they bring to fight. The problem with bringing unauthorized personal weapons and altering issued weapons are d1ck head officers. They will crucify any enlisted swinging d1ck under the UCMJ, from keeping them from their next promotion.

So your saying enlisted female promotions wouldn't be affected?

[HollywoodMarine]

So your saying females wouldn't be affected?
Speaking from a Grunts perspective... what's a female?

[offspring]

Speaking from a Grunts perspective... what's a female?

its a thing with a hole in it

[bababooey]

Speaking from a Grunts perspective... what's a female?

Thank God I joined the Army....

[HollywoodMarine]

its a thing with a hole in it
I thought there was more then one!? ;)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j188/Dust_trenchcoat/threefingers.jpg

[offspring]

Cleveland: Hey Quagmire, how was your date last night?
Quagmire: Cleveland, it was amazing. You know what I discovered last night? Women have a fourth hole.
Joe: What?
Quagmire: Yeah, I mean it's only visible if you're looking from exactly the right angle, like the entrance to Hogwarts. But ya gotta believe that it's there.
Peter: Man, I envy you single guys. No families, partying whenever you want. These are the only people I get to party with. (holds out his wallet, with a picture of the kids)
Quagmire: (Pointing to Meg) Oh, that's where the fourth hole is, right there. Right there in the back of the knee.

[Britboy]

yeah i can imagine, machine guns are meant to spray, and an eotech/aimpoint would be perfect for that,

out of interest, (as i have no experience with one), how acurate are the SAW's? and for that matter, the M240's?
could you actually fire it one shot at a time and be on target?

Machine guns use the principle of a 'beaten zone'. The weapon is imprecise, but we use this to our advantage, as you will see if you become a machinegunner. But optics are not required.


If it allows my guys to kill the enemy faster, I personally don't care what they bring to fight. The problem with bringing unauthorized personal weapons and altering issued weapons are d1ck head officers. They will crucify any enlisted swinging d1ck under the UCMJ, from keeping them from their next promotion.

Ever thought why that 'd!ckhead officer' has such a prerogative? What do you think happens if you tamper with weapons and something goes wrong? What's next, tampering with ammunition and explosives? Bad juju!


I thought there was more then one!? ;)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j188/Dust_trenchcoat/threefingers.jpg

Two in the goo, one in the poo.

[Lethal Lou]

At one point the unit I was in allowed personal weapons (we were running a little loose at the time on oversight). This changed abruptly. One guy was carrying an (expensive) personal weapon in an after-market holster attached to his LBE. For whatever reason he didn't secure it properly and it fell out when he was doing the 3-5 second rush bit under fire. Instead of proceeding to cover - he turned around, went back to fish the piece up and took a round. Someone had to then drag him to cover. Afterwards the Sergeant Major tore a piece out of his entire chain of command and it was SOP that the only firearms that went downrange were issue items. Still had full latitude on knives/machetes/etc of choice.

[HollywoodMarine]

Ever thought why that 'd!ckhead officer' has such a prerogative? What do you think happens if you tamper with weapons and something goes wrong?
Reporters write articles about this, causing for a JAG investigation, leading to relief of duty... etc, etc etc. It's a big headache for the Zeros. But something going wrong with our weapons? I take it you've never heard of an armor.

What's next, tampering with ammunition and explosives? Bad juju!
You don't think we don't? WOW! Where have you been?

Two in the goo, one in the poo.
Different set of fingers there slick! ;)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/mikerutman/shocker.jpg

[Grimm]

If the damn thing blows up in your face, and you loose your eye-sight or something. The army probably wouldn't be responsible for your injuries.

[N-G-F-O]

yeah i can imagine, machine guns are meant to spray, and an eotech/aimpoint would be perfect for that,

out of interest, (as i have no experience with one), how acurate are the SAW's? and for that matter, the M240's?
could you actually fire it one shot at a time and be on target?

You could, yes, but alot of people (myself included, once upon a time) use/d a quick few snatched single shots as spotting rounds.

Then give it stacks.

Others fart around with the gas regulator, slow it down, and walk it in.

Either way i found the GPMG/L7/FN MAG/M240 is perfectly acceptably accurate without optics when used section level or mounted in the sustained fire role.

[cliffg]

I saw a SAW gunner from the 256th BCT mount a Deer Hunting scope on his SAW, thats just stupid.

The 256th? That's just a Coonass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonass) for 'ya. I'm surprised it wasn't on an M2. We got some really big deer down here... :grin: :grin:

(I used to be in the 1/141 FA years ago - part of the 256th.)

[USMC29]

If it allows my guys to kill the enemy faster, I personally don't care what they bring to fight. The problem with bringing unauthorized personal weapons and altering issued weapons are d1ck head officers. They will crucify any enlisted swinging d1ck under the UCMJ, from keeping them from their next promotion.

Judging from the bitterness, i would say your a terminal lance haha. but i look at the age and think otherwise

[simple jumper]

(about tampering with ammo and pyro)
You don't think we don't? WOW! Where have you been?



If you do, you need to be refreshed on the Geneva Convention and the Laws of Armed Conflict...

But maybe this is just a D1ckhead to-be-Officer ruining your fun...

[HollywoodMarine]

Judging from the bitterness, i would say your a terminal lance haha. but i look at the age and think otherwise
Incorrect about the rank, but correct on the age observation.


If you do, you need to be refreshed on the Geneva Convention and the Laws of Armed Conflict...

But maybe this is just a D1ckhead to-be-Officer ruining your fun...
You have "student/military" on your profile. That leads me to believe you are a either a reservist, or college ROTC? Then you must of read that Hajji Tangos don't give a sh1t on Western ideas, values, religion, culture, laws, the "Geneva Convention" or "Laws of War."

Many of you are clueless and assume that we are altering our weapons by adding lasers, flame throwers, firing fleche rounds, etc. WRONG! We get introuble for adding personal optics, hand guards, grips, spray paint them to match the terrain, etc. Talk about altering a weapon... WOW! Either give me a better idea how to kill the enemy, or stay at home, post on the Internet while real men (ages 19-23 for my Marines) make sacrifices for the guys on their left and right. In other words... let us do our freggin job!

Lead... follow... or get the hell out of my way!

[stoker139]

You have "student/military" on your profile. That leads me to believe you are a either a reservist, or college ROTC? Then you must of read that Hajji Tangos don't give a sh1t on Western ideas, values, religion, culture, laws, the "Geneva Convention" or "Laws of War."

Many of you are clueless and assume that we are altering our weapons by adding lasers, flame throwers, firing fleche rounds, etc. WRONG! We get introuble for add personal optics, hand guards, grips, spray paint them to match the terrain, etc. Talk about altering a weapon... WOW! Either give me a better idea how to kill the enemy, or stay at home, post on the Internet while real men (ages 19-23 for my Marines) make sacrifices for the guys on their left and right. In other words... let us do our freggin job!

Yes I know this is my first post here but I found it to be the best one for a first. Now I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but from the context it's almost like you are saying that just because the enemy doesn't adhere to our laws and ideals that we should disregard the same things that they are. While I agree that there should be some leeway with regards to modding the weapon with things like optics, guards, grips and such. But modding a weapon or ammunition to inflict unnecessary wounds is not only immoral but also illegal by means of numerous laws and conventions, the LOAC and Geneva Conventions spring immediately to mind.

Now to the original post about bringing a personal weapon, aside from the obvious stuff such as what if it breaks and such. The key as to why they are generally not permitted from my understanding is that the military would have minimal control over the rounds being loaded into the personal firearm. for example, if a soldier loads jacketed hollow point rounds or Frangibles instead of ball rounds and then goes and kills an enemy or even worse has a ND and kills a comrade with those rounds. The investigation is gonna prove that unauthorized rounds were used then that soldier is in a world of hurt on multiple international levels.

Maybe I'm saying this due to my Canadian sensibilities or maybe it's because this is the law and we should not be stooping to the enemies level and disregard what we believe is the right way to conduct war.

[simple jumper]

You have "student/military" on your profile. That leads me to believe you are a either a reservist, or college ROTC? Then you must of read that Hajji Tangos don't give a sh1t on Western ideas, values, religion, culture, laws, the "Geneva Convention" or "Laws of War."


Lead... follow... or get the hell out of my way!

Yeah, ROTP, wanna chirp me for that as well?
Either way, as Stoker said, modifying ammunition to cause excessive bodily harm is against the Laws of Armed Conflict and Geneva. Simply because the enemy doesn't respect those rules shouldn't justify lowering your standard of professionalism and ethics to his. If you're in a theatre to liberate and establish peace you need to have clearly define rules so you appear as the most promising outcome in the end of the operations. If you're pictured as barbaric or merciless because of the way you alter the projectiles being shot at the enemy which devastate a body and leave no room for saving a life (which could result in intel) then you will not win over the populace to your ideals.

[bababooey]

Yes I know this is my first post here but I found it to be the best one for a first. Now I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but from the context it's almost like you are saying that just because the enemy doesn't adhere to our laws and ideals that we should disregard the same things that they are. While I agree that there should be some leeway with regards to modding the weapon with things like optics, guards, grips and such. But modding a weapon or ammunition to inflict unnecessary wounds is not only immoral but also illegal by means of numerous laws and conventions, the LOAC and Geneva Conventions spring immediately to mind.

Now to the original post about bringing a personal weapon, aside from the obvious stuff such as what if it breaks and such. The key as to why they are generally not permitted from my understanding is that the military would have minimal control over the rounds being loaded into the personal firearm. for example, if a soldier loads jacketed hollow point rounds or Frangibles instead of ball rounds and then goes and kills an enemy or even worse has a ND and kills a comrade with those rounds. The investigation is gonna prove that unauthorized rounds were used then that soldier is in a world of hurt on multiple international levels.

Maybe I'm saying this due to my Canadian sensibilities or maybe it's because this is the law and we should not be stooping to the enemies level and disregard what we believe is the right way to conduct war.

IMO, great post. Be careful, you'll be labeled a commie, tree-huggin', peace-nik, hippie with that kind of sensible talk.

[Varlat Opiat]

Incorrect about the rank, but correct on the age observation.


You have "student/military" on your profile. That leads me to believe you are a either a reservist, or college ROTC? Then you must of read that Hajji Tangos don't give a sh1t on Western ideas, values, religion, culture, laws, the "Geneva Convention" or "Laws of War."

Many of you are clueless and assume that we are altering our weapons by adding lasers, flame throwers, firing fleche rounds, etc. WRONG! We get introuble for adding personal optics, hand guards, grips, spray paint them to match the terrain, etc. Talk about altering a weapon... WOW! Either give me a better idea how to kill the enemy, or stay at home, post on the Internet while real men (ages 19-23 for my Marines) make sacrifices for the guys on their left and right. In other words... let us do our freggin job!

Lead... follow... or get the hell out of my way!

.... omg :bash:

[HollywoodMarine]

...inflict unnecessary wounds is not only immoral...
You don't think someone taking another persons life is immoral? Claymore mines are meant to kil, but they don't awlays do, and leave unecessary wounds. Yet we still do it.

If you're pictured as barbaric or merciless...
People already single out US Marines as barbarians. Civilians either love us or hate us, and I can give a sh1t who falls in between. E-tools, hatchets, machetes are military issue tools, and you are going to tell me I can't use them in combat? Think again guys...

You'll be amazed at our restrain and professionalism under stressful conditions we are placed. The only lives I look out for are my Marines and Corpsmen. I never worry about the safety of my life... I take care of my guys, and they take care of me. You'll never understand, and hope you wont have to. Sacrifices are made by the few who are willing to take the risk. Are any of you willing to take the initiative?

[USMC29]

.... omg :bash:

What?


You don't think someone taking another persons life is immoral? Claymore mines are meant to kil, but they don't awlays do, and leave unecessary wounds. Yet we still do it.

People already single out US Marines as barbarians. Civilians either love us or hate us, and I can give a sh1t. We carry E-tools, hatchets, machetes are military issue tools, and you are going to tell me I can't use them in combat? Think again guys...

You'll be amazed at our restrain and professionalism under stressful conditions we are placed. The only lives I look out for are my Marines and Corpsmen. I never worry about the safety of my life... I take care of my guys, and they take care of me. You'll never understand, and hope you wont have to. Sacrifices are made by the few who are willing to take the risk. Are any of you willing to take the initiative?

Errr

[HollywoodMarine]

(HM)-->:bash:<--(VO)

What can I say? ;)

[simple jumper]

People already single out US Marines as barbarians. Civilians either love us or hate us, and I can give a sh1t who falls in between. E-tools, hatchets, machetes are military issue tools, and you are going to tell me I can't use them in combat? Think again guys...

You'll be amazed at our restrain and professionalism under stressful conditions we are placed. The only lives I look out for are my Marines and Corpsmen. I never worry about the safety of my life... I take care of my guys, and they take care of me. You'll never understand, and hope you wont have to. Sacrifices are made by the few who are willing to take the risk. Are any of you willing to take the initiative?

You said it yourself, they are TOOLS not WEAPONS. Sure they may be used as last ditch when push comes to shove, but if you deliberately use any of those tools as a weapon instead of relying on your primary arm (if you still have ammo) I would be a "d1ck head officer" with you, as you so nicely put it. If you were out of ammo and that's all you have at hand to defend yourself the context is far different. There's a reason why SF in Vietnam stopped using their tomahawks...
As for you jab at "I'll never understand...am I willing to take the initiative and risk?". Why the hell would I join the RegF as an Infantry Officer if I wasn't willing? I'm hoping for deployment ASAP, and had I gone in as a NCM chances are high I would already have been overseas. Your posts don't cease to amaze me...

[stoker139]

You don't think someone taking another persons life is immoral? Claymore mines are meant to kil, but they don't awlays do, and leave unecessary wounds. Yet we still do it.

I think that depending on the situation it could go either way. If someones shooting at me, you're damn right I'll start shooting back and hope to hell I kill him before he kills me. Claymores are permitted by law, non-regulation rounds are not, there is a big difference, and that is the point of my last post.


People already single out US Marines as barbarians. Civilians either love us or hate us, and I can give a sh1t. We carry E-tools, hatchets, machetes are military issue tools, and you are going to tell me I can't use them in combat? Think again guys...

I personally have nothing but respect for Marines and have the pleasure of knowing a few. As a member of the military as you are and I am even though we are from different countries that happen to be be very close allies we are both paid to improvise, adapt and overcome but once again comparing an E-tool to a frangible round doesn't cut it. The whole point of my last post was the use of Unauthorized Ammunition in a war not tools that could be used if push came to shove that the military is responsible for as they are issued.


You'll be amazed at our restrain and professionalism under stressful conditions we are placed. The only lives I look out for are my Marines and Corpsmen. I never worry about the safety of my life... I take care of my guys, and they take care of me. You'll never understand, and hope you wont have to. Sacrifices are made by the few who are willing to take the risk. Are any of you willing to take the initiative?

That's the way it should be, troops before self. I know the other CF members on this board have heard this one before: Mission, Troops, Self. I don't know if the US military has the same thing but they probably do. As for the understanding part, I know it was aimed @ Paratrooper but I'm gonna take the liberty of adding my 2 cents to it. While I have yet to go to war (probably next year though and I am one of those crazy bastards that's volunteering to go). I have been in damage control situations aboard my ship where people could have died but I knew that the guy in front of me and the guy behind me in my attack team had my back and they knew that I had theirs. Initiative is different than breaking international law that has the possibility of being called a war criminal and being tried as such.

[Varlat Opiat]

What can I say? ;)

Well... To put it simply. Your rambo-like tough guy yelling is a little bit amusing. No need for so angry shout out. No need for so aggrieved attitude.p-)

[HollywoodMarine]

As for you jab at "I'll never understand...am I willing to take the initiative and risk?".
Simma down slick! The jab is intended for those playing "Medal of Honor 2," and rather have someone else do what I and others have done.

Why the hell would I join the RegF as an Infantry Officer if I wasn't willing. I'm hoping for deployment ASAP, and had I gone in as a grunt chances are high I would already have been overseas. Your posts don't cease to amaze me...
You'll get your chance. The GWOT isn't going to end anytime soon, and you might one day be in my place as the grumpy ol' fu(ker spouting on these threads.

[HollywoodMarine]

Well... To put it simply. Your rambo-like tough guy yelling is a little bit amusing. No need for so angry shout out. No need for so aggrieved attitude.p-)
Nah... I'm not angry. I'm just the dude who talks loud due to his life experience. As for Rambo, he's Army... I'm a US Marine. ;)

[alexishere2007]

I do somewhat agree about those thinking of bringing your own rifle to combat bad but what about those that aren't issued sidearms... why can't they bring their own? I think they should at least be able to bring one.

[Britboy]

I do somewhat agree about those thinking of bringing your own rifle to combat bad but what about those that aren't issued sidearms... why can't they bring their own? I think they should at least be able to bring one.

I don't know, sidearms are probably more likely to be a danger to you and your mates than they are to come in useful in combat.

There will be notable differences no doubt (MPs, aircrew, SF?) but I doubt the great majority of inf/cav or even other troops would not need such a weapon.

US troops in WWII loved sidearms, whether issued or acquired, but I'm willing to bet the great majority of them were v unlikely ever to be used in anger.

[LineDoggie]

I do somewhat agree about those thinking of bringing your own rifle to combat bad but what about those that aren't issued sidearms... why can't they bring their own? I think they should at least be able to bring one.

Training Standards

Safety Standards

Logistics

Legality in Geneva/Hague Conventions, Law of Land Warfare

Say 3 of your 9 man squad want Glocks, 2 in .40, 1 in 9mm
2 other Joes want S&W Model 29 .44 Magums with a 4" and 8" Barrel

1 wants to carry a Lahti, another a Sig, finally 2 want M1911's 1 in .45ACP (Because he is a man) the other in .38 Super.....

Understand the Nightmare that causes?

Now what happens if one breaks? Military Armorer sure as shiznit aint gonna stock the replacement parts, so now Joe is SOL, Same for replacement Magazines

Say Snuffy decides to gat Terry the Taliban with his Colt Python .357 Magnum loaded with Hollow points and Misses, hitting some 7 year old Afghani kid in the shoulder and killing him?

Such Ammo is Illegal, so Snuffy just committed a War Crime

Back at FOB Salerno, the armorer is checking in Pvt. Hickoks Japanese Type 94 (because Pvt. Hickok got evaced for wounds)and doesnt know not to press the side sear bar while jacking the slide back to clear it. Gat goes off, and Supply Sergeant Bilko just got a New Orifice , but in his chest

[T3ngu]

.

US troops in WWII loved sidearms, whether issued or acquired, but I'm willing to bet the great majority of them were v unlikely ever to be used in anger.
Slightly off topic, but a friend of mines grandfather carried two pistols when he fought on the Kokoda track in the 2nd AIF. He told a story how he was shooting at the Japanese and ran out of ammunition, so threw them at the Japanese as he was running the other way. Sounds a tall story, but i have no reason to doubt the teller.

When he came back, he brought back a number of such things as trophies (including swords) which are currently on display at one of the RSL's in Queensland.

[Britboy]

Slightly off topic, but a friend of mines grandfather carried two pistols when he fought on the Kokoda track in the 2nd AIF. He told a story how he was shooting at the Japanese and ran out of ammunition, so threw them at the Japanese as he was running the other way. Sounds a tall story, but i have no reason to doubt the teller.

When he came back, he brought back a number of such things as trophies (including swords) which are currently on display at one of the RSL's in Queensland.

Bloody hell, Kokoda (or any British/Commonwealth troops in jungle, such as Chindits) would probably be the exception to the rule that pistols wouldn't often be used.

I'm thinking close quarters, repeating SMLE/No5 Jungle Carbine instead of semi-automatic Garand, supply situation was also not the best I think so the chance of him running out of .303.

I just remember reading that no matter how popular pistols were on the Western Front in WWII they were hardly ever used, but having dense jungle so's you can only see 10m ahead of you, and a bolt-action rifle, would probably have me reaching for my pistol too!

[LineDoggie]

US troops in WWII loved sidearms, whether issued or acquired, but I'm willing to bet the great majority of them were v unlikely ever to be used in anger.

Most Handguns are never used in Anger, and G.I.'s in WWI & II would steal anything not nailed down. Fully Half the handguns issued by the USA in WWI were taken as souveneirs by returning Doughboys

[martinexsquaddie]

If you need a Handgun it should be issued you may want one but people want lots of things.
knew one bloke turned up for Telic with a Katana and was miffed it got Taken off him!
Special forces get quite a bit of lattitude as I saw when stopp[ing them going out the gate.
Your not suppoused to stop us oh sorry I stopped you praciting your jedi levitation trick sir.
There was armour coming the other way.

[Laconian]

If it allows my guys to kill the enemy faster, I personally don't care what they bring to fight. The problem with bringing unauthorized personal weapons and altering issued weapons are d1ck head officers. They will crucify any enlisted swinging d1ck under the UCMJ, from keeping them from their next promotion.

Yeah, because a bunch of EMs left to their own devices never do anything to get into trouble, right? They can always be counted on to make the smart decision, right? Riiight.

From your view there is nothing wrong with it. Where do you sit in the CoC? Do you deal with the same conditions and pressures as those (both commissioned and non-commissioned) up your chain? There were a bunch of things I didn't think about, or even know about, when I was spouting on about those retards at BN HQ.

Weapons need to be uniform (there's that word again) across the board for legal, training, safety and logistical reasons. LD's post was pretty good about pointing that out.

[Currahee 1SG]

I do somewhat agree about those thinking of bringing your own rifle to combat bad but what about those that aren't issued sidearms... why can't they bring their own? I think they should at least be able to bring one.

If your not issued it you don't need it. It turns into a cool guy factor. The GEARDO. Soldiers overload themselves with gear they will never use and wonder why their shoulders are going bad.

[Britboy]

TBH, regarding 'I haven't got a sidearm but want one', if your IW stops working, you are going to be almost certainly best served by getting it functioning again, under cover of your teammates, rather than drawing a pistol. Effective range of a pistol and rounds carried are a lot different to those with your IW!

If the enemy is so close that a pistol would be important, then you are probably better off bayoneting/buttstroking/knifing him. You would also be within grenade range. All this with the caveat that I have never bayoneted anyone for real! But pistols aren't effective for very far, and there have been instances of people being hit by pistols and going on to assault the firer hand-to-hand; whereas the psychological edge of a big hairy-arsed bloke running at you with a knife on the end of his gat baying for blood would be... considerable.

As I said before though, there will be special cases (RMP, aircrew (do they get PPKs?), and UKSF) where pistols are needed and issued, I should think.

[ibstolidude]

If your not issued it you don't need it. It turns into a cool guy factor. The GEARDO. Soldiers overload themselves with gear they will never use and wonder why their shoulders are going bad.
I know exactly why my right rotator cuff is bad....repetitive motion on lengthy deployments... Oddly, this doesn't rate, nor does it qualify for a PH.

[trunk_munkey28]

If your not issued it you don't need it. It turns into a cool guy factor. The GEARDO. Soldiers overload themselves with gear they will never use and wonder why their shoulders are going bad.

Sorry but I would have to disagree on that one.
Using an example from the Canadian Army, our issued TACVest has a load carriage capacity of 4 x 5.56mm mags, 2 x frag, 2 x Smoke, and has two waterbottle pouches and two 5.56 link/GP pouches that are interchangeable on either side under the arm.
There are no provisions for GPMG gunners, M203 ops, etc, and this is not to mention the vest's somewhat retarded layout.
In our contemporary operating environment, this is nowhere near enough even if you are less than 50m away from your wagon.
This is why you see most of our troops in Afghanistan wearing third party chest rigs, LBVs etc. My HSGI chest rig served well during both of my 7 month deployments; it allowed me to carry my issued battle load of ammo comfortably and easily accessible, and I have no regrets about the cash I spent on it.
Issued Tac Vest
http://i44.tinypic.com/a0b155.jpg

At least 7 out of 10 troops wearing personally owend load bearing gear.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2qa8shc.jpg

[NZPumpkin]

how much ammo is an 'issued' battle load out? i would have thought 4+1 in the gun was no where near enough, i carry that much for an IPSC rifle shoot 'just in case' and my life sure as hell ain't on the line at that point in time.

[trunk_munkey28]

how much ammo is an 'issued' battle load out? i would have thought 4+1 in the gun was no where near enough, i carry that much for an IPSC rifle shoot 'just in case' and my life sure as hell ain't on the line at that point in time.

I can't speak for other subunits on my last tour, but I carried 9 mags, 2 frag, 2 smoke, 5 40mm, with an additional 12 on a bandolier ready to the thrown from my LAV. We also carried ammo cans full of charged mags for emergency resupply in the carrier.

[Erik2a4]

If your not issued it you don't need it. It turns into a cool guy factor. The GEARDO. Soldiers overload themselves with gear they will never use and wonder why their shoulders are going bad.

Sounds like a leadership problem. Personally, I've found some things from CIF and PEO Soldier are great, and some things sorely lacking. I honestly do not trust some of the idiot savants working at CIF to know what he or she is doing or issuing ever since they tried to get me to pay for a sleeping pad that had been blown up by an RPG.

7 mags are standard for a US Army Rifleman. But really it depends upon the mission and the mission analysis.

[Erik2a4]

If the enemy is so close that a pistol would be important, then you are probably better off bayoneting/buttstroking/knifing him. You would also be within grenade range. All this with the caveat that I have never bayoneted anyone for real! But pistols aren't effective for very far, and there have been instances of people being hit by pistols and going on to assault the firer hand-to-hand; whereas the psychological edge of a big hairy-arsed bloke running at you with a knife on the end of his gat baying for blood would be... considerable.

As I said before though, there will be special cases (RMP, aircrew (do they get PPKs?), and UKSF) where pistols are needed and issued, I should think.

rofl I'll stick to the pistol as a secondary, although your enthusiasm for the spirit of the bayonet is duly noted. Personally, I like being around people that are proactive about what they use and are issued, and are trained and proficient in their primary and secondary (and sometimes tertiary) weapons systems.

[Schad]

Not nearly enough - 240 rounds is average, 400 for an assault is not un-realistic, plus 2-4 grenades, 200 rnds 7.62mm link, not counting batteries, 60mm mortar bombs, 40mm shells, ringers lactate solution, etc etc etc...

[martinexsquaddie]

there are quite a few people floating about issued with sidearms in the stan now but they are ISSUED rather than Numbnuts turning up with something that could not be safe servicable using dodgy ammo etc.
there was a rumour somebody in the HAC got an AW50 posted to them :)
but then there was a rumour they turned up by private jet :)
but having big ugly squaddies turn up issued with the worlds shortest rifle intent on gutting you is going to ruin your day.
Though may turn out to be windfall compensation payments for your relatives :(

[ibstolidude]

Not nearly enough - 240 rounds is average, 400 for an assault is not un-realistic, plus 2-4 grenades, 200 rnds 7.62mm link, not counting batteries, 60mm mortar bombs, 40mm shells, ringers lactate solution, etc etc etc...
Our M-203 gunner carried 3-dozen 40mm, plus what was in his diddy bag. He carried significantly less 5.56 than anyone else.

If given the option, I would rather him have a dedicated GL, no 5.56. That keeps the brain from popping a 40mm then switching back to 5.56 & staying there.

[Erik2a4]

Our M-203 gunner carried 3-dozen 40mm, plus what was in his diddy bag. He carried significantly less 5.56 than anyone else.

If given the option, I would rather him have a dedicated GL, no 5.56. That keeps the brain from popping a 40mm then switching back to 5.56 & staying there.

Good point. Now that I think about it, that was actually a problem during a few one-way...and at least one two-way...live-fire exercises I've been in.

And 7 mags is a basic load according to the US Army. I've seen many, many more than that, and also quite a few less...like I said, mission planning.

[Britboy]

rofl I'll stick to the pistol as a secondary, although your enthusiasm for the spirit of the bayonet is duly noted. Personally, I like being around people that are proactive about what they use and are issued, and are trained and proficient in their primary and secondary (and sometimes tertiary) weapons systems.

I agree about being proactive, trained and proficient, just seems to me that pistols are not effective except at short range, can be unlikely to stop/kill someone unless they hit something vital, can contribute to accidents, and require training, rounds, maint, etc etc. From my point of view (have done APWT with 9mm pistol, but not used for anything else; however, have used 5.56 rifle and 7.62 GPMG lots) it looks like a lot of investment/risk for not much return in effectiveness.

Not saying that pistols don't have a niche role with certain types of troops, just wondering if you think that EVERY soldier or infantryman/cavalryman should carry one?

That seems a bit OTT for me - in the time he has realised his rifle isn't working, taken cover, tried to clear the stoppage, failed, drawn the pistol, and got a shot away, the enemy has probably gone or his mates have probably already taken care of him. It certainly would be enough time for him to run up to the en and buttstroke/stab him. Given he is already issued grenades and a bayonet, surely he'd be better served by perforating the enemy with those, than with another firearm?

[Lt. James Anderson]

Our M-203 gunner carried 3-dozen 40mm, plus what was in his diddy bag. He carried significantly less 5.56 than anyone else.

If given the option, I would rather him have a dedicated GL, no 5.56. That keeps the brain from popping a 40mm then switching back to 5.56 & staying there.

If given the option, I would rather have you play games with your life than with mine. Most of situations I've been in in both Afghanistan and Iraq, happened at very close range. Sometimes the 203 was required, sometimes it wasn't. What if you're facing a guy with AK at the arming range distance? You gonna fire one shot and miss, and then what?

The bottom line, if you can't multitask you shouldn't be a 203 gunner.

When I was a 203 gunner (for two years in Afghanistan and Iraq) I carried two dozen 203 rounds + 400 5.56mm. Most of the situations I've been in didn't require use of 203 round, the 5.56 did the job quite nicely.

And not all rounds you carry are HEDP either, some are smoke and some are starcluster. Can his undeveloped brain handle all those choices and use each when appropriate or should we only make people carry HEDPs?

[ibstolidude]

If given the option, I would rather have you play games with your life than with mine. Most of situations I've been in in both Afghanistan and Iraq, happened at very close range. Sometimes the 203 was required, sometimes it wasn't. What if you're facing a guy with AK at the arming range distance? You gonna fire one shot and miss, and then what?

The bottom line, if you can't multitask you shouldn't be a 203 gunner.

When I was a 203 gunner (for two years in Afghanistan and Iraq) I carried two dozen 203 rounds + 400 5.56mm. Most of the situations I've been in didn't require use of 203 round, the 5.56 did the job quite nicely.

And not all rounds you carry are HEDP either, some are smoke and some are starcluster. Can his undeveloped brain handle all those choices and use each when appropriate or should we only make people carry HEDPs?
Actually in another theater, said gunner ultimately did end up lugging a GL, m9, & shotgun, leaving his longgun in the veh or house; but then again he also carried a SAW on occasion... even had a Gerber as I recall... must of been a SUPER HUGE brain on that guy.

& I am not the only here who trusted their life to this guy, but then again he could handle rotating his safety switch on & off...

[Erik2a4]

I agree about being proactive, trained and proficient, just seems to me that pistols are not effective except at short range, can be unlikely to stop/kill someone unless they hit something vital, can contribute to accidents, and require training, rounds, maint, etc etc. From my point of view (have done APWT with 9mm pistol, but not used for anything else; however, have used 5.56 rifle and 7.62 GPMG lots) it looks like a lot of investment/risk for not much return in effectiveness.

Not saying that pistols don't have a niche role with certain types of troops, just wondering if you think that EVERY soldier or infantryman/cavalryman should carry one?

That seems a bit OTT for me - in the time he has realised his rifle isn't working, taken cover, tried to clear the stoppage, failed, drawn the pistol, and got a shot away, the enemy has probably gone or his mates have probably already taken care of him. It certainly would be enough time for him to run up to the en and buttstroke/stab him. Given he is already issued grenades and a bayonet, surely he'd be better served by perforating the enemy with those, than with another firearm?

It all comes down to training and mission. I'm a fan of the "Arms Room" method of equipping soldiers. Each unit has a wealth of stuff in the Arms Room, and can equip its soldiers in response to a specific Task Organization (established as part of the Operations Order), rather than fitting a predetermined Table of Organization and Equipment (established by Dept of the Army) to the required Task Organization.

However funding is finite, there are only 24 hours in a day, training ammo is finite, and there are some missions that are far more common than others. So, I would say that issuing pistols would first depend upon the unit's METL, and what missions it will likely face. If the unit spends a lot of time in an urban environment, then I am in favor of issuing pistols. Then, of course, there must be dedicated training time and ammo to establish a level of competency. Without that level of competency the pistol is worthless.

People in organizations who are very good at close quarter battle carry pistols because a transition drill is faster for them than a mag reload.

Is the average infantryman at this level? Certainly not. However, I'm always in favor of giving the option to the unit to develop those skills, rather than simply saying, "He'll never use it" and writing it off as non-essential.

I'm still a believer in 2 is 1, 1 is none, although I fully understand and even agree that more rifle or GMPG ammo is far more useful than a pistol in most Infantry Bn METL scenarios. But I'd prefer to have a certain number of pistols available for use in the Battalions, so that the chain of command can have the option to develop that skill or not.

[Erik2a4]

Actually in another theater, said gunner ultimately did end up lugging a GL, m9, & shotgun, leaving his longgun in the veh or house; but then again he also carried a SAW on occasion... even had a Gerber as I recall... must of been a SUPER HUGE brain on that guy.

& I am not the only here who trusted their life to this guy, but then again he could handle rotating his safety switch on & off...

Was it a Gerber Mark I? That would be "almost" as "cool" as a Vietnam Tomahawk. He should carry either...or both...in a boot sheath. For that professional look. :)

I have seen M203 gunners who get too wrapped up in using the rifle that they don't engage enough with 40mm. I'd say the solution is more training and proper leadership.

[ibstolidude]

Was it a Gerber Mark I? That would be "almost" as "cool" as a Vietnam Tomahawk. He should carry either...or both...in a boot sheath.
That only works for Chaplain's assistants...
Someone could probably actually use that crap effectively; I won't lie, I would probably cut off my own leg if I tried to use a tomahawk.

[Erik2a4]

That only works for Chaplain's assistants...
Someone could probably actually use that crap effectively; I won't lie, I would probably cut off my own leg if I tried to use a tomahawk.

That's my entire basis for why I don't fix bayonets. Odds are I would impale myself and my ego would never recover.

Right now I consider opening an entire MRE with my folding benchmade without drawing blood a qualified success. p-)

[Lt. James Anderson]

I have seen M203 gunners who get too wrapped up in using the rifle that they don't engage enough with 40mm. I'd say the solution is more training and proper leadership.

That and assigning the right person to a weapon. A lot of people suck at being a 203 gunner or a machinegunner (can't operate it, can't hit **** with it) yet they get stuck with it. I think that's a leadership failure.

I remember one time when we went on a 240 qualification range. Out of the whole platoon (gunners and AGs) I was the only one who qualified the first time (and I was a Javelin gunner). The others it took them two or three times. Imo, a person like that should't be a machine gunner. Then the same thing on a 203 range. One half did OK the other half sucked ass.

[Britboy]

It all comes down to training and mission. I'm a fan of the "Arms Room" method of equipping soldiers. Each unit has a wealth of stuff in the Arms Room, and can equip its soldiers in response to a specific Task Organization (established as part of the Operations Order), rather than fitting a predetermined Table of Organization and Equipment (established by Dept of the Army) to the required Task Organization.

However funding is finite, there are only 24 hours in a day, training ammo is finite, and there are some missions that are far more common than others. So, I would say that issuing pistols would first depend upon the unit's METL, and what missions it will likely face. If the unit spends a lot of time in an urban environment, then I am in favor of issuing pistols. Then, of course, there must be dedicated training time and ammo to establish a level of competency. Without that level of competency the pistol is worthless.

People in organizations who are very good at close quarter battle carry pistols because a transition drill is faster for them than a mag reload.

Is the average infantryman at this level? Certainly not. However, I'm always in favor of giving the option to the unit to develop those skills, rather than simply saying, "He'll never use it" and writing it off as non-essential.

I'm still a believer in 2 is 1, 1 is none, although I fully understand and even agree that more rifle or GMPG ammo is far more useful than a pistol in most Infantry Bn METL scenarios. But I'd prefer to have a certain number of pistols available for use in the Battalions, so that the chain of command can have the option to develop that skill or not.

Interesting approach, and I like it. I suppose you would have this approach for different types of weapon as well, for instance, every Bn/Coy would have a certain number of SMG as well, if they were applicable to anything they could be called upon to do. I did wonder, when I read the press release that the MoD is replacing our 7.62 sniper rifles with 8.59 sniper rifles, what would happen to the old rifles, surely they wouldn't be sold or scrapped? I thought it'd be pretty nifty if they handed them round different inf/cav units, the odd 'designated marksman' or the recce platoon could probably make use of them in certain situs. I'm not sure what is happening to those rifles, but there we go.

This seems a grand approach for Iraq currently, and perhaps Afg to some extent, because I'd imagine COIN, esp urban COIN from established bases, both requires different armaments/postures from friendly forces, and allows you your arms room and ammo supply. But for mobile forces, in conventional warfare, probably not so much, given you wouldn't want to lug all those weapons around with you in another truck or whatever! There again, I'm sure that SF make use of allsorts of weird and wonderful weapons and gadgets in all phases of war, mobile, conventional, or not :p

The only other thing is, is there ever really likely to be the time to outfit your guys in this Arms Room way? Since time from receiving orders to giving your own to getting started is usually very tight, I'm not sure the comd has all that time to consider the minutae of what wpns to carry - its quicker and surer for him to go for what he knows and what everyone else knows - sometimes it just needs to be good enough and dependable rather than tailormade but unusual. There again this can probably be alleviated by a good Wng O, 2iC and G4 squaring that side of it away concurrently whilst you do the planning/writing orders bit of it all - that and good SOPs/predetermined options too I suppose (your aforementioned 'if its in a built up area, we'll take pistols', etc).