Mod's will you lock this please, it's gone nut's

[moughoun]

Deleted

[MVSpartan117]

chinese copy everything we make..... everything...

[Steel21]

Yes, its unerving how much they copy.

However, sometimes I wish we'd do the same with some foreign equipment. At the minimum it keeps R&D cost low as the stuff have already been tested by others.

Why work harder? Work smarter! :bash:

[el borracho]

It looks more like the F-35 JSF to me. Not surprising how the chinese rip off other peoples military equipment. About all they can do is match the exterior, but I can guarantee you that it wont have the same internal hardware as the real F-22, therefore performance will reflect that.

[platform389]

Have they even figured out Fly-By-Wire yet?

It may look the same, but you can be VERY sure it won't perform the same.

[pipaz]

if i were you i wouldent underestimate them, China might just prove us wrong...after all they are struguling to improve drasticly

[Wildc@rd]

as always.....from high-end packs of Eagle Industries to this F-22

:bash:

[perdurabo]

the new "evil" empire is growing on east (or west looking from california)....

[Ratamacue]

It looks more like the F-35 JSF to me. Not surprising how the chinese rip off other peoples military equipment. About all they can do is match the exterior, but I can guarantee you that it wont have the same internal hardware as the real F-22, therefore performance will reflect that.

The F-35 does't have twin engines with square nozzles like this. The F/A-22 does.

[PeoplesPoster]

Doesn't really looke like either, singly. It looks more like a union of and f-18 and f-22.

[Uncle Chô]

Doesn't really looke like either, singly. It looks more like a union of and f-18 and f-22.
And wings from the F-16 ;) But remember, this is only a CGI, not the real thing... Future will tell us but China has to be taken seriously :|

[fokket]

Where's all that wisdom of inventing paper, compass etc. gone to?

[Ratamacue]

Where's all that wisdom of inventing paper, compass etc. gone to?

It's given way to wisdom of making the military more effective and keeping its personnel safer.

[kutter]

Good lord, people look at a CGI image and take it as proof that the Chinese are copying the F-22 (hmm, I guess it will be called the J-22 in PLA service :roll: )
Oh look now they've gone and copied the Gripen, those bastards!
http://members.rogers.com/norinco78/ACF9163.jpg
Remember folks, theres lots of photoshops/misinformation about the PLA out in the web.

BTW, I'm aware the Chinese copy alot of stuff so don't point it out, all I'm trying to say is not jump to conclusions based on a CGI or any image of dubious origins.

[kutter]

Where's all that wisdom of inventing paper, compass etc. gone to?

Read up on the history of China from the mid 19th to mid 20th century (until 1949), that should enter your question. Lets just say it wasn't a high point for China.

[highlander653]

Good lord, people look at a CGI image and take it as proof that the Chinese are copying the F-22 (hmm, I guess it will be called the J-22 in PLA service :roll: )
Oh look now they've gone and copied the Gripen, those bastards!
http://members.rogers.com/norinco78/ACF9163.jpg
Remember folks, theres lots of photoshops/misinformation about the PLA out in the web.

BTW, I'm aware the Chinese copy alot of stuff so don't point it out, all I'm trying to say is not jump to conclusions based on a CGI or any image of dubious origins.

That Gripen lookalike is clearly a photoshoped fake pic. The closest thing the chinese got is the J-10, which looks quite different from the gripen.

http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/fighter/J-10_02.jpg

http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/fighter/J-10_3view1.jpg

[highlander653]

Oh sorry, I havn't read your last 2 line when i posted the last reply. ;)

[Airborneranger4israel]

It does look very simmilair, but remember that is just cg aritist rendering with no techincal accuracy. There was article a while back in popsci about the main assembly of th f22's and it was really good. Anyway my point is (i'm sure many people have said this too) that THOUSANDS of internal parts and other gizmos (lack of better term and technical knowledge) are top secret and the chinese would need an entire blueprint just to attempt to copy the f22,

[Deuterium]

The laws of aerodynamics and thermodynamics are the same for the Chinese as they are for us. It's not surprising that good plane designs look similar.

[Milkman]

The laws of aerodynamics and thermodynamics are the same for the Chinese as they are for us. It's not surprising that good plane designs look similar.
I guess that applies to assualt rifles, submarines, ships, tanks and rockets too?

[Deuterium]

The laws of aerodynamics and thermodynamics are the same for the Chinese as they are for us. It's not surprising that good plane designs look similar.
I guess that applies to assualt rifles, submarines, ships, tanks and rockets too?

Yes it does. A rifle "looks" like a rifle. Now when you get into the subtle mechanics there can be differences. A bulpup design is different is some ways but you wouldn't mistake it for being a toaster. I don't see too many submarines shaped like squares either.

[DPGLAW]

God Damn chinese....can't they come up with anything original, ever? Based on the thread that I saw on here a few weeks ago, they first copied the LCS from us, now the F-22. I would say we shoud steal some of their technologies, however, they don;t have anything worth stealing....lol

[droopy]

chinese copy everything we make..... everything...
Why invent/design something when you can be "inspired" from something that is already tested.

[J-10]

I don't know who did all above pics, maybe from some military fans.

The following are ture pics of J-10:

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/forums/uploads/post-15-1080913721.jpg

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/forums/uploads/post-15-1080914571.jpg

[seruriermarshal]

Like PS ?

:roll:

[Airborneranger4israel]

Like PS ?

:roll:
ya i like popular science alot although there articles could be a little more detailed and realistic but all in all its a great magizine

[AFACadet]

moughoun,

do you have a link for the website?

[popeye.lee]

well!!

J-10 IS A REAL THING!

[usa320]

meh...

Even if they have a better plane, we still have better pilots and better supporting elements, therefor the better overall air war strategic advantage.

[[AFSOC]]

oh those chinese are witty

[Burncycle]

I don't know who did all above pics, maybe from some military fans.

The following are ture pics of J-10:

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/forums/uploads/post-15-1080913721.jpg



AHHH it's eating those poor little soldiers! woot

[wyrm_142]

The J-10 (F-10) is a Chinese variant of the IAI Lavi.

The drawing of the twin engine jet is likely something on the drawing boards...

[iflu]

Yeh. it is a copy of isreal stuff or should not be called a copy. coz anyway a country can either choose to import sth or buy the technique when u need sth better, right? the difference is the different way to pay. U do not think that china does not pay isreal, right? so chinese admit that chinese technique is not as good as american's, so what??? china bought black hawks and tried to develop new fighter together with american companies such as grumman, so what???
BTW, as far as the relationship between war and equipment is concerened, do u think that over 200 years ago, american army equiped the same as british army? do u think that over 20 years ago people in a-stan equiped the same as USSR's army? and I do not want to mention sth 40 years ago and sth 50 years ago. so what do u suggest.

[wyrm_142]

so what do u suggest.



I never called the F-10 a copy of the LAVI, I said it was a Chinese produced version (updated of course).

As Deut pointed out, aero engineers around the world live by the same rules. Hence why the F-15 & F/A-18 and the Russian Aircraft of the same type (MiG-29 & Su-27) look so much alike.

[iflu]

so what do u suggest.

Grammar school?

I never called the F-10 a copy of the LAVI, I said it was a Chinese produced version (updated of course).

As Deut pointed out, aero engineers around the world live by the same rules. Hence why the F-15 & F/A-18 and the Russian Aircraft of the same type (MiG-29 & Su-27) look so much alike.

Oh i m not against u. i m sorry for causing this misunderstanding. i just want to express that china can import technique even if somepeople would call it as copy. there is nothing wrong. we pay for that.

[Tengu]

And now BACK to that so called F-22 plane. Even if they copy the outside they can't just copy en will not copy the inside just by looking at the outside.

Don't you worry dude's, nato still rules p-)

[bertfivesix]

China can copy/build whatever planes it wants. In the end, they're all going to be knocked down by Taiwanese air defenses just the same.

[fokket]

Where's all that wisdom of inventing paper, compass etc. gone to?

It's given way to wisdom of making the military more effective and keeping its personnel safer.

Actually, my point was that there were days Chinese managed to come up with something of their own.

Nowadays, They just copy everything.

[Sora]

China can copy/build whatever planes it wants. In the end, they're all going to be knocked down by Taiwanese air defenses just the same.

kids.....time for bed :hug:

-------

Made in China....You dont know they can fly, You dont know they can fight.....Made in China means what piece of ****

[Russian Texan]

I do not think that next Chinese fighter will be a F-22 rip off, it is too delicate and expensive. About a year ago there were rumors of China buying/participating in Mig 1.44 project.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig14201.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig14203.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img004/mig144-003.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig142w.jpg

[wyrm_142]

Just because something 'looks' F-22 / JSF-ish on the outside (from afar). Doesn't mean that it has any of the characteristics (conversly, it could have them, and more). We thought the MiG-25 was the uber fighter, till Belenko defected.

[Russian Texan]

We thought the MiG-25 was the uber fighter,

It never was an uber fighter, it was an uber interceptor, until Mig 31 arrived.

I still do not see the point of arguing about something that is nothing more than CGI. Does anyone have info about its combat characteristics?

[wyrm_142]

It never was an uber fighter, it was an uber interceptor, until Mig 31 arrived.

I'm not denying that it was designed and employed strictly as a Conehead jet. What I was trying to say, is Intel (as always) is hit and miss. DIA, (and the other agencies) had thought that the MiG-25 was more than a interceptor - it wasn't until '76 that we knew better.

The Soviet side of the house (and China today) will always have an easier task (intel assesment wise), with the amount of 'info' that we (US & Western Europe) release as part of the development / production / sales process.

[oldsoak]

Just because something 'looks' F-22 / JSF-ish on the outside (from afar). Doesn't mean that it has any of the characteristics (conversly, it could have them, and more). We thought the MiG-25 was the uber fighter, till Belenko defected.

I'd agree with that . I remember being told about how far ahead the Russians were and how dangerous the situation was getting and wasnt it our good luck that Lockheed, McD, and all the other arms manufacturers had just the very thing that restore parity - if we we would care to purchase it. To be sure there were a few suprises, but a lot of it was hype to loosen the purse strings. We all ended up spending zillions calling each others bluff.

[Alpha_UK]

China can copy/build whatever planes it wants. In the end, they're all going to be knocked down by Taiwanese air defenses just the same.

to: bertfivesix
F__k China is fine, but... if i can remember, Taiwan is Republic of CHINA, isnt that means... you were f__king your own nation?

[bertfivesix]

to: bertfivesix
if i can remember, Taiwan is Republic of CHINA,

An error perpetuated by the KMT government, and one that will soon be corrected.

The label was one adopted long ago during the period the Nationalist government that occupied Taiwan clung to the idea that they were the true representatives of China. Now, for some reason, it's interpreted as meaning Taiwan is a formal subject of the People's Republic of China, a terrorist communist regime. Just plain wrong. Two seperate entities.

If you would read the following link, you'll find that according to relevant treaties and international law, Taiwan has virtually never been an integral, legally adminstrated part of China.

Taiwan's 400-years of independent history: http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm#1945

If you ever hear me refer to Taiwan as a "Republic of China", I want you to shoot me.

[Michael RVR]

Copy the outside you say?

A beer say's they've got more info about it than taking happy snaps of the outside. ;)

A slab says they build it at 1/2 the price also p-)

[Alpha_UK]

An error perpetuated by the KMT government, and one that will soon be corrected.

The label was one adopted long ago during the period the Nationalist government that occupied Taiwan clung to the idea that they were the true representatives of China. Now, for some reason, it's interpreted as meaning Taiwan is a formal subject of the People's Republic of China, a terrorist communist regime. Just plain wrong. Two seperate entities.

If you would read the following link, you'll find that according to relevant treaties and international law, Taiwan has virtually never been an integral, legally adminstrated part of China.

Taiwan's 400-years of independent history: http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm#1945

If you ever hear me refer to Taiwan as a "Republic of China", I want you to shoot me.

as far as i know,
Mainland China is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan Formosa is Republic of China.
both speaks Chinese, isnt that means you are a chinese ATM?

[SpikeATGM]

meh...

Even if they have a better plane, we still have better pilots and better supporting elements, therefor the better overall air war strategic advantage.

I thought recently, the american fighter pilot were whack upside down by the Indian pilot.

[xjym2002]

China can copy/build whatever planes it wants. In the end, they're all going to be knocked down by Taiwanese air defenses just the same.

Which part of China do you want to ****? Republic Of China or People's Republic of China?

[xjym2002]

as far as i know,
Mainland China is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan Formosa is Republic of China.
both speaks Chinese, isnt that means you are a chinese ATM?

Mainland China is also Republic of China between 1911 and 1949.

Nowadays if you ask which part is more chinese? I'd say Taiwan. Tomorrow is the public holiday in Taiwan - Dragon Boat Day - which in mainland this very traditional holiday will only be celebrated after work.

[J-10]

meh...

Even if they have a better plane, we still have better pilots and better supporting elements, therefor the better overall air war strategic advantage.

I thought recently, the american fighter pilot were whack upside down by the Indian pilot.

Yeah, the american fighter(F-15) pilot were whack upside down by the Indian(Su-30MKI) pilot.

[Helly]

meh...

Even if they have a better plane, we still have better pilots and better supporting elements, therefor the better overall air war strategic advantage.

I thought recently, the american fighter pilot were whack upside down by the Indian pilot.

Yeah, the american fighter(F-15) pilot were whack upside down by the Indian(Su-30MKI) pilot.

The Su-30MKI didn't participate in the recent Cope India exercise. The Indian Air Force only flew the Su-30K, as well as a number of Floggers, Jaguars, and Mirage 2000s.

And no, the Elmendorf-based F-15Cs were not "whack upside down" by the Indian Su-30Ks. The published reports are all full of politics and agendas for both sides. In the case of the USAF, playing up the deficiencies of the F-15C (first flight: 1979) vs. the Su-30K (first flight: 1989) means that the urgent need for the F/A-22 Raptor is further amplified. ;)

[SpikeATGM]

And no, the Elmendorf-based F-15Cs were not "whack upside down" by the Indian Su-30Ks.

The fact is that they lost. American may have the best fighter plane in the world but not so true for their pilot.

Sometime back I saw a news reported that they lost to IAF by a margin of something like 90:4(can't really remember)?

[bertfivesix]

as far as i know,
Mainland China is People's Republic of China.
Taiwan Formosa is Republic of China.
both speaks Chinese, isnt that means you are a chinese ATM?

There is no Republic of China. That fantasy died with the end of KMT (Nationalist) rule. There is only Taiwan. Please wait while we get our business cards reprinted.

And your language argument is just plain stupid. I speak Spanish too. Am I a Spaniard? And did you just call me an ATM? :lol:

And yes, it is ironic that Taiwan is more preservative of traditional Chinese culture than China itself.


Which part of China do you want to f***? Republic Of China or People's Republic of China?

Yes. F**k China. PRC. Red China. Terrorist China. Take your pick.

[SpikeATGM]

Yes. F**k China. PRC. Red China. Terrorist China. Take your pick.

What the matter with you? I also hate the goverment in china but i don't go around ****ing the whole country upside down.

Not many overseas ethnic chinese like me hope there will be war. Least we would not want to our favourite Taiwanese variety programme to be replaced by those boring CCTV programme.

It 9pm now, off to see my favourite "2quan 2ming 4luan 3jiang". See what the topic of today

[pfclee]

Damn...

those chinese people rip off everything man...

They even photoshop the Korean counter-terrorism operators's shoulder patch and claim they are some Chinese unit.

As you see, some Koreans showed the original photo saying it is originally Korean, those Chinese then claim they are movie stars acting as a counter-terrorism operator.

I mean... DAMN! I saw the same woman's photo in many other counter-terrorism excercise photos.

[SpikeATGM]

Damn...

those chinese people rip off everything man...

They even photoshop the Korean counter-terrorism operators's shoulder patch and claim they are some Chinese unit.

As you see, some Koreans showed the original photo saying it is originally Korean, those Chinese then claim they are movie stars acting as a counter-terrorism operator.

I mean... DAMN! I saw the same woman's photo in many other counter-terrorism excercise photos.


Thats really disgusting.

Personally I never want to buy china products. No Quality Control, lousy packaging, and it not uncommon to find some of the foodstuff and medication containing harmful substances. Just recently, one women here die of liver failure after consuming some diet pills from china.

Very sad to say, businessmen from china are unethical lot.

[Hydro]

Very sad to say, businessmen from china are unethical lot.

I think you'll find most businessmen aren't exactly angels...

[Helly]

And no, the Elmendorf-based F-15Cs were not "whack upside down" by the Indian Su-30Ks.

The fact is that they lost. American may have the best fighter plane in the world but not so true for their pilot.

Sometime back I saw a news reported that they lost to IAF by a margin of something like 90:4(can't really remember)?

Lost how? Where are the official results (no, media reports and pilot statements don't count)? What are the engagements like? Are the restrictions the same for both sides? How are the kills scored? Are the actual weapons envelope taken into account by the IAF's ACMI system? Does the IAF even know the AMRAAM's true kill envelope?

And do you honestly think that both sides went all-out during the engagements, revealing their true capabilities to a potential enemy? The IAF chose not to include the Su-30MKI in the exercise. The Su-30Ks that participated chose to fire off simulated AA-10 Alamo (R-27) missiles instead of the newer and more capable AA-12 Adder (R-77). The participating F-15Cs were not equipped with the AESA radar system (contrary to some reports), nor did they make use of the AIM-9X and JHMCS combo. What if the USAF brought along an AWACS or two as originally requested by the IAF? Those details oughta tell you something.

Look, I'm not saying the F-15C is better than the Su-30K or vice versa. All I'm saying is that we don't know jack sh*t about what really happened during the exercise, so we shouldn't take the reports floating around the internet as the gospel truth. Exercises like Cope India are not even meant as "real" matches. In a real match, adversaries don't sit down and talk about the day's flight plans and guidelines before going to war.

I'm not even gonna go into the whole this country's pilots are better that that country's flyboys 'coz of the results from this and that exercise. This doesn't translate well into a real shooting war.

At the end of the day, air forces, and not a single flight of Eagles or Flankers or whatever, win air wars. Which is why results from full-blown exercises like Red Flag are far more reliable than "friendly" exercises between a few planes from different countries.

[AFACadet]

Ya'll listen to the man, he speaks the truth


Everything you will hear from exercises is either disinformation or heresay because they are all classified.

[SpikeATGM]

Actually the IAF is Israel Airforce and not Indian Airforce. Should have make it clear.

It a report that i saw some months back between IAF and US marine. They do not really want to publish detail much about this to avoid embarassing the US. Could not really find the link. Anyway it also reported that IAF thrash the german airforce in a dogfight ex.

Maybe our israeli friend can confirm this.

[usa320]

Comparing planes to eachother is useless. Single plane vs. plan arguments are moot, because in air war there are more than two planes. You have AWACS, Tankers, strike packages, JSTARs, UAV's, ect.

[IDFM203]

Actually the IAF is Israel Airforce and not Indian Airforce. Should have make it clear.

It a report that i saw some months back between IAF and US marine. They do not really want to publish detail much about this to avoid embarassing the US. Could not really find the link. Anyway it also reported that IAF thrash the german airforce in a dogfight ex.

Maybe our israeli friend can confirm this.Oh not this again ;) ……….anyways yep I posted before on both the IAF (Israeli version ;) ) "Mock exercises" between the U.S. and as well as the German Air Forces

All the public info is on this site, just search for these topics under my name ;)

Anyways now waiting for the member “DLodge” to pop up here anytime as he usually does when this topic comes up (as it does every now and then) ;)

Shalom :D

[bertfivesix]

Yes. F**k China. PRC. Red China. Terrorist China. Take your pick.

What the matter with you? I also hate the goverment in china but i don't go around f*** the whole country upside down.

Not many overseas ethnic chinese like me hope there will be war. Least we would not want to our favourite Taiwanese variety programme to be replaced by those boring CCTV programme.

It 9pm now, off to see my favourite "2quan 2ming 4luan 3jiang". See what the topic of today

Nobody in Taiwan hates the Chinese people as a whole. Just the antagonist Chinese regime. Although we do harbor resentment towards those mainland Chinese that actually believe and support the nationalist propaganda about "liberating Taiwan". Chinese is an ethnicity. China, or PRC, is a regime.

Yes, Taiwanese game shows are hilarious.

[xjym2002]

Nobody in Taiwan hates the Chinese people as a whole. Just the antagonist Chinese regime. Although we do harbor resentment towards those mainland Chinese that actually believe and support the nationalist propaganda about "liberating Taiwan". Chinese is an ethnicity. China, or PRC, is a regime.

Yes, Taiwanese game shows are hilarious.

OK, that's fair enough. But I still think you should modify your avatar to make your point more clear.

Just imagine, several years later, the mainland regime turns out to be a democratic one, would those who like you still seek the independence of Taiwan?

[bertfivesix]

The path of Taiwanese independence is inevitable. The concept is not based solely on the desire to be free of Chinese aggression - rather, it is the will of the Taiwanese people to be a free and independent nation (officially, that is). So regardless of the form of government on the mainland, Taiwan will move towards independence.

BTW, the flag in my avatar is the proposed flag of a free Taiwan. Taken in context, the meaning of the whole avatar should be more clear - as not an indictment against the Chinese people, but against PRC terrorism.

[xjym2002]

Imagine another situation, if majority of Taiwanese regard themselves Chinese, and were against independence, what would people like you do?

[bertfivesix]

That situation does not exist. To imagine so would be to completely disregard the 400 year history of Taiwan. My opinions are that of the majority of Taiwanese, and are derived as such from the experiences and history of my people, so to imagine that the majority held a different opinion would mean that I did as well. Understand? However, that point is moot, as again, that situation does not, and will not exist.

I'll remind you, the Taiwanese people do not regard themselves as wholly ethnically seperate from the Chinese people (with exception to those with aboriginal roots). The difference is ideological, cultural, and historical. We are our own people in that respect.

[rob]

is the **** china avatar really nesisary?

[Helly]

Actually the IAF is Israel Airforce and not Indian Airforce. Should have make it clear.

Actually, IAF can be both Indian Air Force or Israeli Air Force. Not that it's gonna matter 'coz what I posted also applies to exercises between the Israeli Air Force and the USAF, USAF vs. Luftwaffe, etc. etc. etc. Just different planes and weapons.

[xjym2002]

OK, then imagine the situation that minority of Taiwanese, maybe only a quarter percentage less, prefer to be reunited with mainland, what would people like you do to this minority?

[ronin2172]

that answer is obvious...u let them immigrate...if they don't want to leave...then they have to live by what tghe majority demands...

[bertfivesix]

OK, then imagine the situation that minority of Taiwanese, maybe only a quarter percentage less, prefer to be reunited with mainland, what would people like you do to this minority?

Do to them? Nothing. Because in a free society, people are allowed to believe in what they believe, without fear of government reprisal. Can the same be said for the PRC? So no, those of us who believe in a free Taiwan will do nothing to those who don't.

And as evidenced by the assassination attempt against President Chen, the opposite is untrue.

In fact, there is a small minority of Taiwanese who do not favor a bold independence move, but rather to maintain the status quo. An even smaller percentage (mainly those who came with the Nationalists years ago) favor reunification. There are of course differing opinions, and everyone has an opportunity to express them. The majority opinion will decide Taiwan's future - it's called democracy, and self-determination.

[xjym2002]

That's really simple!

Then let's imagine that the minority happens to be the majority in some certain area, let's say Tai Nan.

In the city of Tai Nan, majority votes against independence, would the minority have to choose emigration out of the city?

[ronin2172]

maybe u don't know how a democracy works....it would be a NATIONAL refurendum or vote not a REGIONAL one, what ever those people in that city cannot and would not decide what the nation wants as a whole.....the needs or wants of the many outweight the needs or wants of the few...to paraphrase Mr. Spock.....again if those who want to reuinite loose out then they have the option to go to china...if they decide to stay they have to abide by what the majority voted for

[xjym2002]

Perfect.

Go on teaching me on the definition of National and Regional please.

[ronin2172]

Perfect.

Go on teaching me on the definition of National and Regional please.
ok if u r being serious...

if Taiwan was to hold a vote on reunification with china or total independance it would be voted on by everyone of voting age who is registered to vote.

Whatever side won the vote then the country (national) would abide by that decision as a whole, irrespective of the regional breakdown.

Now being a democracy Taiwan would have to allow those who wanted reunification to leave if they so chose. However if those who lost wanted to stay in Taiwan then they have to abide by the rule of the land, whether they like it or not.

[xjym2002]

What if some people, this time in the city of Taibei, won a city election and declared independence from Republic of China, founded a new "Republic of Taibei", and the majority of Taibei's citizen voted agreement.

Is such a vote National or Regional?

[SpikeATGM]

What if some people, this time in the city of Taibei, won a city election and declared independence from Republic of China, founded a new "Republic of Taibei", and the majority of Taibei's citizen voted agreement.

Is such a vote National or Regional?

There is already one such case.

Chen crushes 'republic' of aborigines
Taipei forcibly evicts hundreds who settled on leased government land as their 'country within a country'

By Lawrence Chung

TAIPEI - President Chen Shui-bian, widely believed to want independence for Taiwan, has, ironically, denied the same to a group who are the original Taiwanese - the aborigines.

His government, on learning that hundreds of them have formed their own 'Kaosha republic', ordered a crackdown, sending in 500 armed police to disperse them from a site they have claimed as the seat of their republic.

Advertisement

Kaosha is a term used to refer to the aboriginal people of Taiwan.

The police raided the 6ha site in southern Kaohsiung county early yesterday, ordering the inhabitants to evacuate before four bulldozers tore down the more than 270 illegal structures.

The aborigines turned emotional and blamed the President for their plight.

'Down with Chen Shui-bian the big liar,' some of them shouted.

The residents claimed they had been tricked by Chen aides, who had told them that if they supported his re-election, their 'republic' would be legalised and they could each get a small piece of land.

'A-Bian told us he would establish 'country within country' relations with the aborigines if we voted for him,' said Mr Tang Chao-cheng, a self-proclaimed 'Speaker' of the 'Taiwan People Parliament'.

'Now that he got his second term, he no longer cares whether we are alive or dead,' said Mr Tang.

The angry residents tried to block the bulldozers and had to be forcibly removed from the scene.

'Give me back my home. We have no place to go,' cried an elderly woman.

In April last year, the aborigines started congregating on the farmland leased from the state-run Taiwan Sugar Corp.

They were led by Su Jung-tsung, a non-aborigine who nevertheless proclaimed himself president of the Kaosha republic, which had its own flag and anthem, and a temporary government and parliament.

He was arrested earlier this month after Taiwan Sugar sued him for breach of contract as the land had been leased for the purpose of planting vegetables and fruit trees.

Indigenous legislator Kao-Chin Su-mei said the aborigines had first been tricked by Su and then by certain aides of Mr Chen.

'A number of these people are underprivileged and do not have a steady job. Because they are poorly educated, they are easily cheated.'

Aborigines make up about 5 per cent of Taiwan's 23 million people.

[SpikeATGM]

To imagine so would be to completely disregard the 400 year history of Taiwan. My opinions are that of the majority of Taiwanese, and are derived as such from the experiences and history of my people, so to imagine that the majority held a different opinion would mean that I did as well. Understand? However, that point is moot, as again, that situation does not, and will not exist.



Unless you are a Taiwanese aborigine, 400 years ago, i suppose your ancestor should be still in mainland china.

Anyway are you a minnan speaking Taiwanese?


Chinese is an ethnicity. China, or PRC, is a regime

And yes PRC is a regime.

But China is not a regime. China will still be called china regardless who runs it. Just like Iraq is still called Iraq with or without Saddam.

[ronin2172]

that is complex....well the initial election is a regional one,,as it concerns the leadership of the city...some one who lives on the other side of the country wouldn't have a say in who is the mayor of Taibei. That would be like the People of Los Angeles having a say as to who the next Mayor of New York City would be.

Now if they declared independance that is a whole nother issue....as it is part of the ROC and not a colony or territory gained through conquest, That would plunge the country into a civil war of sorts...not a good thing

[bertfivesix]

The future of Taiwan is a product of its past, as is true with all nations, hence the importance of its history.

I have never claimed to not be ethnically Chinese, nor have I claimed that race plays a role in Taiwanese independence. On that note, yes, I can trace certain branches of my family tree to aboriginal tribes. Does that matter? A million years ago, all of our ancestors were in Africa.

I speak both Min-Nan (aka Taiwanese) and Mandarin Chinese.

xjym2002 - your "situations" are becoming more and more irrational.

[SpikeATGM]

The future of Taiwan is a product of its past, as is true with all nations, hence the importance of its history.



So how do we draw a line and how do we set a standard for basis of a independent state?

The fact is there is never a standard adopted for that definition. Singapore on a historical basis is part of Malaysia and base solely on history she should still be part of malaysia. Look at what happen now? It has become a independent "chinese Island in the malay sea". The existence of Singapore defies history. But legally she has the basis to be independent. So here it is a case of legality taking precendent over historical factors.

Back to Taiwan, independence advocate often used the 1895 treaty as a legal basis to support their legal claim of China ceded Taiwan. But does that treaty include Matsu and Kinmen? And if it does not, what legal or historical basis is there for "ROT" to "occupy other people's land" which is so much nearer to mainland China than Taiwan? And what about her basis as ROT in claiming a stake in spratly island and Diaoyutai?

How do we account for this since I am pretty sure there are chinese rule on Kinmen and Matsu way before the 400years.



I speak both Min-Nan (aka Taiwanese) and Mandarin Chinese.

I regard both min nan as my mother tongue. But i would like to point out Min nan does not originate from Taiwan. IMO it is misleading to label the langauge as Taiwanese or as something uniquely Taiwanese.

[Operation Ivy]

God damn enough of the what if questions, democracy is not that hard to figure out jeez

[SMGLee]

I am from Taiwan, but I don't support Taiwan independance.

As far as Taiwan air defense, you can pretty well rest assure the Chinese military will shut Taiwan down with in a month. Taiwan will have to relay on America's help in order to stay alive. China don't have to fly fighter over, all they have to do si drop enough missiles to disrupt Taiwan.

It is nice that you voice your political opinion, but Taiwan will be ROC for awhile to come. keep up your good work, maybe one day in the distant future you and your group might get your wish.

[GrimmyRX]

What if some people, this time in the city of Taibei, won a city election and declared independence from Republic of China, founded a new "Republic of Taibei", and the majority of Taibei's citizen voted agreement.

Is such a vote National or Regional?

There is already one such case.

Chen crushes 'republic' of aborigines
Taipei forcibly evicts hundreds who settled on leased government land as their 'country within a country'

By Lawrence Chung

TAIPEI - President Chen Shui-bian, widely believed to want independence for Taiwan, has, ironically, denied the same to a group who are the original Taiwanese - the aborigines.

His government, on learning that hundreds of them have formed their own 'Kaosha republic', ordered a crackdown, sending in 500 armed police to disperse them from a site they have claimed as the seat of their republic.

Advertisement

Kaosha is a term used to refer to the aboriginal people of Taiwan.

The police raided the 6ha site in southern Kaohsiung county early yesterday, ordering the inhabitants to evacuate before four bulldozers tore down the more than 270 illegal structures.

The aborigines turned emotional and blamed the President for their plight.

'Down with Chen Shui-bian the big liar,' some of them shouted.

The residents claimed they had been tricked by Chen aides, who had told them that if they supported his re-election, their 'republic' would be legalised and they could each get a small piece of land.

'A-Bian told us he would establish 'country within country' relations with the aborigines if we voted for him,' said Mr Tang Chao-cheng, a self-proclaimed 'Speaker' of the 'Taiwan People Parliament'.

'Now that he got his second term, he no longer cares whether we are alive or dead,' said Mr Tang.

The angry residents tried to block the bulldozers and had to be forcibly removed from the scene.

'Give me back my home. We have no place to go,' cried an elderly woman.

In April last year, the aborigines started congregating on the farmland leased from the state-run Taiwan Sugar Corp.

They were led by Su Jung-tsung, a non-aborigine who nevertheless proclaimed himself president of the Kaosha republic, which had its own flag and anthem, and a temporary government and parliament.

He was arrested earlier this month after Taiwan Sugar sued him for breach of contract as the land had been leased for the purpose of planting vegetables and fruit trees.

Indigenous legislator Kao-Chin Su-mei said the aborigines had first been tricked by Su and then by certain aides of Mr Chen.

'A number of these people are underprivileged and do not have a steady job. Because they are poorly educated, they are easily cheated.'

Aborigines make up about 5 per cent of Taiwan's 23 million people.

I actually wanna see a responce to this. The Crushing of the Indiginous Population's attempt at a seperate country by the Taiwanese gov't, is just what the PRC is trying to do to the ROT, except for 1) the Indig's don't have US support and 2) The Indigs have about 350 more years of claim to the land than the current Taiwanese Government.

[bertfivesix]

Back to Taiwan, independence advocate often used the 1895 treaty as a legal basis to support their legal claim of China ceded Taiwan. But does that treaty include Matsu and Kinmen? And if it does not, what legal or historical basis is there for "ROT" to "occupy other people's land" which is so much nearer to mainland China than Taiwan? And what about her basis as ROT in claiming a stake in spratly island and Diaoyutai?

How do we account for this since I am pretty sure there are chinese rule on Kinmen and Matsu way before the 400years.

Quemoy and Matsu were islands claimed and occupied during Chiang's fight with the communists. That was not the action of the Taiwanese people at the time. However, since then, the islands have been administered as an integral part of Taiwan.

Taiwan's claim on the Spratly Islands stems from the need to protect valuable shipping lanes (Protect from whom? Oh, that's right - the communist threat), and for its abundant natural resources. I don't purport to know the outcome of this, since there are a half-dozen other countries claiming part, or whole ownership over the islands.

Diaoyutai was ceded as part of Taiwan in the 1895 Shimonoseki treaty. For centuries prior, it had been used by Taiwanese fishermen as a base, and fishing hole (hence the name). It has been administered by Japan since 1972, though sovereignty was never retained. Hell, my grandfather used to run the Japanese blockade to fish there! It is uninhabited, so the claim is mainly cultural and historical. Besides, that dispute is with Japan, not PRC.

Now, the claims to Matsu and Quemoy, the Spratly Islands, and Diaoyutai were actions of the hardline KMT government. They aren't necessarily the fervent views of the current stock of independence minded parties. However, the general consensus is that Taiwan should not "leave behind" the people it has looked after for so many decades. Might I remind you that Matsu and Quemoy are voting districts, and have consistently sided with pro-Taiwan, pro-independence parties.


So how do we draw a line and how do we set a standard for basis of a independent state?

The fact is there is never a standard adopted for that definition. Singapore on a historical basis is part of Malaysia and base solely on history she should still be part of malaysia. Look at what happen now? It has become a independent "chinese Island in the malay sea". The existence of Singapore defies history. But legally she has the basis to be independent. So here it is a case of legality taking precendent over historical factors.

As for the standard of independence, like xjym, you're drawing up "situations" that do not apply. The standard for Taiwan can only be determined by Taiwan's situation. However, more basically, the fate of Taiwan must come about as a product of self-determination. I say MUST because it is a matter of international treaty and UN law. So whatever the people of Taiwan decide will be their fate. More than Taiwanese freedom, I believe in the right of the Taiwanese people to determine their own future. I just happen to know that the desire of the Taiwanese people is to be free and independent.


I regard both min nan as my mother tongue. But i would like to point out Min nan does not originate from Taiwan. IMO it is misleading to label the langauge as Taiwanese or as something uniquely Taiwanese.

Min-nan is commonly known as Taiwanese (dai-wan-we)on the island, and there are already slight dialectical differences between mainland-spoken min and Taiwan-spoken min. That's why I put "aka Taiwanese" - also somewhat of an index to those who have heard a Taiwanese speak the language. I did not claim it was a natively Taiwanese dialect. The only ones that are are the various Poly-nesian and Australonesian Formosan tongues.


I am from Taiwan, but I don't support Taiwan independance.

SMG - are you one who prefers we maintain the status quo of de-facto independence? Granted, there is some reasoning behind avoiding conflict with China, but there are also grave consequences, as evidenced by the recent SARS scare, where China withheld WHO support, and prevented Taiwan's potential membership in that organization.


Taiwan will have to relay on America's help in order to stay alive. China don't have to fly fighter over, all they have to do si drop enough missiles to disrupt Taiwan.

In the event of war, yes, Taiwan will require American and Japanese help to prevent an amphibious invasion of Taiwan. However, I believe it has (rather, with more defense spending, will have) sufficient anti-missile and AA defences to put up a strong defense, and maintain control until help arrives.


It is nice that you voice your political opinion, but Taiwan will be ROC for awhile to come. keep up your good work, maybe one day in the distant future you and your group might get your wish.

I agree - Taiwanese independence will not occur tomorrow. But I do believe it will happen within the next decade. By then, it will be more fortified, and hopefully the US will be done with the GWOT.

My hope is that at that time, China will realize that an attack on Taiwan would destabilize the entire region, and prove disastrous for China itself.

[MaDuce]

Did you know that 20% of China's economy is based on counterfits.

[moughoun]

Mod's will you shut this thread down please, it's not even close to the topic anymore :slap:

[ZeroPositive]

should seriously lock this thread it is becoming one of those Israeli Palestine threads....

[GrimmyRX]

Did you know that 20% of China's economy is based on counterfits.

Did you know that 80% of all statistics are either misleading or Made up? rofl

[Alpha_UK]

[quote]
And your language argument is just plain stupid. I speak Spanish too. Am I a Spaniard? And did you just call me an ATM? :lol:


you have no idea what ATM means right lol
it means At the Moment (atm)

well, my taiwanese said Taiwan is Republic of China atm
my friend send these two sites to me (check the title)
http://www.president.gov.tw/ (Chinese version)
http://www.president.gov.tw/index_e.html (English version)
http://www.mnd.gov.tw/


Taiwan independent? War between China and Taiwan?

i dont think the mighty US of A or nuty japs will help Taiwan
be'cos this will cost far too much money, for what?
it does no good to USA, Japs or China
n i turely believe USA or Brits will not fight for another nation for nothing

[bertfivesix]

you have no idea what ATM means right lol
it means At the Moment (atm)

That was a joke. A play on words. A pun. "Haha, you called me a chinese Automated Teller Machine". Bah..nevermind..I'll remember to make my jokes fool-proof next time.


well, my taiwanese said Taiwan is Republic of China atm

I've never said the official name of Taiwan isn't the Republic of China. I've only said it won't be much longer, because it's not a title the Taiwanese people want. When the time for the declaration of independence arrives, you will see that name changed.


i dont think the mighty US of A or nuty japs will help Taiwan

You underestimate the economic and ideological importance Taiwan represents for both the US, Japan, and much of the western world. And you forget, the US is bound by law to defend Taiwan.

[SpikeATGM]

[quote]Quemoy and Matsu were islands claimed and occupied during Chiang's fight with the communists. That was not the action of the Taiwanese people at the time. However, since then, the islands have been administered as an integral part of Taiwan.

Precisely, how are we going to apply the same set of standard here right?

Native Taiwanese and mainland Taiwanese originate from the same source. Both are decendent of immigrant. The difference it just that one arrive earlier than the other. The real native they are a aborigine. But for the good of ROC or ROT, it would be better see each other as fellow countrymen.


Might I remind you that Matsu and Quemoy are voting districts, and have consistently sided with pro-Taiwan, pro-independence parties.

The people in kinmen and Matsu support KMT more. This can be seen in the recent presidential election.


I just happen to know that the desire of the Taiwanese people is to be free and independent.

From what i know majority of Taiwanese favour status quo. Not all people who voted for DPP are for independence and not all people who voted for pan blue are for unification.



Min-nan is commonly known as Taiwanese (dai-wan-we)on the island, and there are already slight dialectical differences between mainland-spoken min and Taiwan-spoken min. That's why I put "aka Taiwanese" - also somewhat of an index to those who have heard a Taiwanese speak the language. I did not claim it was a natively Taiwanese dialect. The only ones that are are the various Poly-nesian and Australonesian Formosan tongues.

The difference is only in the accent. Maybe add in some local jargon and for Taiwan case some japanese phase. But this is common. Chinese in malaysia speaks a different accent of mandarin and minnan as compare to singapore but does that qualify it to be called singa po we? I don't think so.

[SpikeATGM]

Actually the IAF is Israel Airforce and not Indian Airforce. Should have make it clear.

Actually, IAF can be both Indian Air Force or Israeli Air Force. Not that it's gonna matter 'coz what I posted also applies to exercises between the Israeli Air Force and the USAF, USAF vs. Luftwaffe, etc. etc. etc. Just different planes and weapons.

What you say is concerning the system as a whole where as for me I am just commenting on the quality of the pilot.

Yes good fighter pilot alone will not win war. Maybe I am wrong to attribute those result from the exercise on the pilot alone (but I have absolute no doubt that Israel have the best fighter pilot in the world). It is the system that wins a war. System include all the crew member, the operation doctrine, the training etc. Without a good set of system, having a good team of pilot is useless.

[epc]

...

In April last year, the aborigines started congregating on the farmland leased from the state-run Taiwan Sugar Corp.

They were led by Su Jung-tsung, a non-aborigine who nevertheless proclaimed himself president of the Kaosha republic, which had its own flag and anthem, and a temporary government and parliament.

He was arrested earlier this month after Taiwan Sugar sued him for breach of contract as the land had been leased for the purpose of planting vegetables and fruit trees.

...

I actually wanna see a responce to this. The Crushing of the Indiginous Population's attempt at a seperate country by the Taiwanese gov't, is just what the PRC is trying to do to the ROT, except for 1) the Indig's don't have US support and 2) The Indigs have about 350 more years of claim to the land than the current Taiwanese Government.

What kind of a response do you want to see? Read the highlighted section of the article again. It's a case of business contract dispute / illegal buidlings. No more different than a municipal zoning disupte in North America. If you really want to call such a farce an independence movement, then so be it, but don't expect a serious discussion to grow out of it.

[chengwudi]

Poor bertfivesix
I come from mainland of China.I live in WUHAN.
terroristic PRC??
no democracy??no free?? no free speech ??
have you ever been to mainland???
Can you tell me some detailed views on the mainland of yours ??
Why you have such fierce prejudice to the mainland??
**** China?**** youself?
I feels shame to having a compatriot just like you !


(My English is very poor, hope that everybody forgives.BTW, )

[SmOg]

:D lol..u guyz having fun discussing PRC n' ROC?....cool....keep it flappy then..
rofl BTW...as i know , that pic is a faked CGI by some military fans from somewhere in China...so dun expect anything like that will pop up n' dance on the desk...
about that pic of J-10(F-10) , its faked by photoshop..but the real thing IS already in service :backhand: and a twin engine/ two seated model is already in PLA's shopping basket...
....sure they r still a 'lightyear" behind those "hot stuff" USAF been playing with....but they ARE catching up..... FAST....

[Vintendo]

Poor bertfivesix
I come from mainland of China.I live in WUHAN.
terroristic PRC??
no democracy??no free?? no free speech ??
have you ever been to mainland???
Can you tell me some detailed views on the mainland of yours ??
Why you have such fierce prejudice to the mainland??
**** China?**** youself?
I feels shame to having a compatriot just like you !


(My English is very poor, hope that everybody forgives.BTW, )

Yea, then why don't you speak out against your government. I DARE YOU. China is far from a free, democratic society.

[Raistlin]

Yea, then why don't you speak out against your government. I DARE YOU.
OK, that was a really really lame point. To prove that one is right, does one need to lie?

[Bayonet]

I'm a chinese military fan in Shanghai,China.....

I think there are many misapprehensions between western society and China.

China is far from what u image

Though it's democracy shuold be improve ,it has been much better than
the time before 1990 ......

China is very open now....For instance, I ' m a college student in Shnaghai ,and do you know how many foreign teachers i have? more than 15 ,they are from Australia, America ,and one funny guy is from UK
I have only about 3-4 chinese teachers , one is taiwanness ,but i'm not sure wether he thinks he is a chinese or not......... rofl

I think chinese are not better than other people, there are many immoral people and things in China....and i also think western people are not better
than chinese ......there are many immoral people and things in western society,too.....The point is we are all same human beings and live on this beautiful planet.........

BTW,,,,,,I know many people won't believe me, we have too many misapprehensions between eachother.....
There is a chinese saying: The truth is what u see , don' believe your ears

So if u don't believe me, u can come China, it's not an expensive trip, :D
or you also can inform me to give more pics about PLA and China
alex_cn@hotmail.com is my e-mail address.......
Let's respect each other..............Forgive my poor English........ rofl


To someone who want to **** China.....
China doesn't suit your mini *****
It' too big......
Now close your mouth, save your *****.....
do not insult chinese, and I also won't insult your people
Don't waste your words now.....
Let's meet in the war one day...Let's fight like a real man in that war not like a bitch...U kill me or I kill you ....winer is winer.....

[limbstrong]

PLA troops training in imagined "Southwest Taipei" landscape:
http://61.132.72.44/dswc/upload/images/68389299530.jpg

:( [/img]

[bertfivesix]

Sweet baby Jesus, I am not referring to the Chinese people - rather, I speak of the terrorist government. I've said this REPEATEDLY.

More to the point, a government not elected by the people can hardly be representative of them, correct? So my derision of the Chinese government cannot literally be taken as being directed towards the Chinese people.

Is that so goddamn hard to understand? I've refrained from questioning the Chinese people's intelligence as a whole, but now I'm beginning to wonder..

The only Chinese people I do not respect are those that agree with and support their government's continued campaign to terrorize and subjugate the people of Taiwan. Those people I regard as ignorant, and along with their government, can eat my ass.


To someone who want to f*** China.....
China doesn't suit your mini *****
It' too big......
Now close your mouth, save your *****.....
do not insult chinese, and I also won't insult your people
Don't waste your words now.....
Let's meet in the war one day...Let's fight like a real man in that war not like a bitch...U kill me or I kill you ....winer is winer.....

Oh god, that's funny.. No seriously, I'm laughing so hard I'm crying. rofl

If the time comes, you will find me on my grandmother's roof in Taipei with a rifle, ready to dispatch as many PLA as I can. p-)


terroristic PRC??
no democracy??no free?? no free speech ??

Last I checked, firing a ****load of missles close to Taiwan in an effort to use fear to sway political elections ('96) is a terrorist tactic. And tell me when was the last time you elected your leader, or had elected representatives to decide public policy?

I don't deny that the climate in China is more temperate, in regards to students not being massacred for protesting, but that's not my main concern.

Maybe when Taiwan is free, we will turn around and help you guys attain democracy and more human/civil rights. Would you like that? Seriously, we wouldn't mind helping out.. :hug:


Why you have such fierce prejudice to the mainland??
**** China?**** youself?
I feels shame to having a compatriot just like you !

Again, I am "prejudiced" against the antagonist government of the mainland, not the mainland itself. It would be pretty silly of me to harbor anger towards land. F*ck me? Okay, kid. And if you don't share my views on the free will and right to freedom of my people, then you aren't my compatriot - and I could care less if you are ashamed of me.

[perdurabo]

I'm curious why PRC cant just leave ROC alone? this is small island with almoust no resources china is big you have enough place.....
Next issiue Tibet why PRC anected Tibet? the same thing enough place around Tibet has almoust no farming dirt almoust no resources or if they have something diging it out would cost hell of a lot of cash....

[Bayonet]

I'm curious why PRC cant just leave ROC alone? this is small island with almoust no resources china is big you have enough place.....
Next issiue Tibet why PRC anected Tibet? the same thing enough place around Tibet has almoust no farming dirt almoust no resources or if they have something diging it out would cost hell of a lot of cash....

You dont understand this because you r not asian.....

We cant leave TAIWAN and TIBET is not for money or some economy benifits.

The reason is this island and Tibet are all inherited from our ancestors.

I am sure that u cant understand this reason,,meybe you will think its silly

but I think Japanese or Koreans will understand us.......

[perdurabo]

I'm curious why PRC cant just leave ROC alone? this is small island with almoust no resources china is big you have enough place.....
Next issiue Tibet why PRC anected Tibet? the same thing enough place around Tibet has almoust no farming dirt almoust no resources or if they have something diging it out would cost hell of a lot of cash....

You dont understand this because you r not asian.....

The reason is this island and Tibet are all inherited from our ancestors.

I am sure that u cant understand this reason,,meybe you will think its silly

I think Japanese or Koreans will understand us.......

I undersand that you know one quarter of my family comes from Lwów now Lvov in Ukraine next quarter comes from teritory now that is Litva next 1/4 comes from Cieszyn witch is now Czech Rep. only 1/4 comes from Poznań :) and i live in city that was setteled by Poles in 1000something that leter was in Czech Austrian Swedish(!) Prussian and Germans.... its just a land. I reay want to hear PRC, ROC and Tibetans(if they are here) ppl about this how they see this without BS normal point of view of normal ppl living there :)

[limbstrong]

Well, I'm from Nanjing, China, a beautiful city, which is the former capital of ROC. Last time when I elected the people's representative commitee of Xuanwu district, Nanjing city was in 2002. I and all other citizens beyond age 18 have the right to vote. And I can elect ANYONE I like, even those who are not pre-defined candidates. Bertfivesix you silly frog in the well don't know this because the Taiwan government won't tell you. They simply describe PRC as a regime under extreme dictatorship so that young people like you are totally brainwashed and follow their opinion.

Besides: you're right in that the ROC as a country name would no long exist in a few years. But not converted into Taiwan Republic or something alike. Just something like Hong Kong now is.

[Raistlin]

I'm curious why PRC cant just leave ROC alone?
I also heard the version where international politics are involved. Once Taiwan is independent, it will most probably allow US to host their military personel and equipment on Taiwanese bases. And it will become like Chinese Cuba.

[Bayonet]

They cant wait for the day of independence ,

they wish that their american papa's troops will enter taiwan as soon as

possible..

[SpikeATGM]

Well, I'm from Nanjing, China, a beautiful city, which is the former capital of ROC. Last time when I elected the people's representative commitee of Xuanwu district, Nanjing city was in 2002. I and all other citizens beyond age 18 have the right to vote. And I can elect ANYONE I like, even those who are not pre-defined candidates. Bertfivesix you silly frog in the well don't know this because the Taiwan government won't tell you. They simply describe PRC as a regime under extreme dictatorship so that young people like you are totally brainwashed and follow their opinion.

Vote someone with very little say in governing the whole country. The central gov still cling on to their power with all the yes men around. This is not really the form of democracy that is practise around the world.

So how about having a fair and open nationwide election in mainland where DPP and KMT are welcome to join in?


Besides: you're right in that the ROC as a country name would no long exist in a few years. But not converted into Taiwan Republic or something alike. Just something like Hong Kong now is.

1c2s have very little market in Taiwan. There are so many ways to unify but why only insist on 1c2s? Can't you people find other ways? The big problem here is CCP wants unification without compromising their central authority and power. Which mean Taiwan gov would become the de facto provincial goverment which is totally unacceptable to Taiwanese.

[limbstrong]

SpikeATGM:
Your questions are very good. To elect the national leader directly is the highest form of democracy, and I hope this day come ASAP. However the direct election is only limited to village/town level in China now. I believe that Chinese people will enjoy more political choice in the coming decade if we pursue. And even americans don't elect their president directly, right?

The CCP's 1C2S policy is as stubborn as you've scored. I guess they stick to this option because they underestimated the independence will of Taiwanese too much, or they have too much confidence in their power to take taiwan in forciable way(including millitary). A confederate China or a loose group like Europe is OK for me. But an independent, hostile Taiwan with american GIs on it is completely unacceptable.

[J-10]

I also heard the version where international politics are involved. Once Taiwan is independent, it will most probably allow US to host their military personel and equipment on Taiwanese bases. And it will become like Chinese Cuba.

This comment come from cold war fans.

Taiwan independence is impossible, because China and U.S.A. all oppose it. I hope most Taiwan people see clearly the reality, this is helpful to unite China in peaceful method.

Democracy in Tanwan is a good new thing, remain it and improve it.

[ZeroPositive]

This has all gone off topic...

[GrimmyRX]

Just slightly. :lol:

[Bayonet]

This has all gone off topic...

Maybe we should have a new topic to talk about Taiwan issue.... :D

[limbstrong]

Back to pictures. :roll:

Chinese sentry plane:
http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-06-20/108774229910851081042004521105531404741.jpg

[limbstrong]

Mysterious Chinese long-range rocket launcher. We prepared much cheese to attract those Russian noses and the brains above them: :lol:

http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-06-12/1087042255000002.jpg

[Bayonet]

Good pics ....Limbstrong

[Jehuty]

You dont understand this because you r not asian.....

We cant leave TAIWAN and TIBET is not for money or some economy benifits.

Are you even aware of the atrocities commited by the Chinese army in Tibet?
And excuse me but if they don't want to be chinese, no one should force them to be. They have their own territories, their own cultures, you have no right to occupy Tibet or to threaten Taiwan.


The reason is this island and Tibet are all inherited from our ancestors.

I am sure that u cant understand this reason,,meybe you will think its silly
.

You're right it's plain ****ing dumb and it has nothing to do with the culture or the continent.Germans used the same stinky logic for the annexion of my region in the past.
It was only an agression to gain land, free Tibet (http://www.freetibet.org/info/key_issues.html).

[Bayonet]

You dont understand this because you r not asian.....

We cant leave TAIWAN and TIBET is not for money or some economy benifits.

Are you even aware of the atrocities commited by the Chinese army in Tibet?
And excuse me but if they don't want to be chinese, no one should force them to be. They have their own territories, their own cultures, you have no right to occupy Tibet or to threaten Taiwan.


The reason is this island and Tibet are all inherited from our ancestors.

I am sure that u cant understand this reason,,meybe you will think its silly
.

You're right it's plain f*** dumb and it has nothing to do with the culture or the continent.Germans used the same stinky logic for the annexion of my region in the past.
It was only an agression to gain land, free Tibet (http://www.freetibet.org/info/key_issues.html).




Do you know who is the local leader in Tibet?

Dalai Lama is the local leader....

But do you know how can a tibetan be the Dalai Lama?

Answer the question..

[J-10]

Are you even aware of the atrocities commited by the Chinese army in Tibet?

When? Where did you hear from?



free Tibet

About Tibet (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18226)

[Jehuty]

You dont understand this because you r not asian.....

We cant leave TAIWAN and TIBET is not for money or some economy benifits.

Are you even aware of the atrocities commited by the Chinese army in Tibet?
And excuse me but if they don't want to be chinese, no one should force them to be. They have their own territories, their own cultures, you have no right to occupy Tibet or to threaten Taiwan.


The reason is this island and Tibet are all inherited from our ancestors.

I am sure that u cant understand this reason,,meybe you will think its silly
.

You're right it's plain f*** dumb and it has nothing to do with the culture or the continent.Germans used the same stinky logic for the annexion of my region in the past.
It was only an agression to gain land, free Tibet (http://www.freetibet.org/info/key_issues.html).




Do you know who is the local leader in Tibet?

Dalai Lama is the local leader....

But do you know how can a tibetan be the Dalai Lama?

Answer the question..

You win the prize of the most unrelated reply ever.
I think it's pretty obvious that the Tibetans wants to be free in their own nation, just like the Taiwanese (?), it's enough for me to support their cause. Massacres of civilians and protesters obviously don't pay in your favor.
As for your question, i don't know and i don't care, nothing justify the suffering of the tibetan people.

[Bayonet]

You dont understand this because you r not asian.....

We cant leave TAIWAN and TIBET is not for money or some economy benifits.

Are you even aware of the atrocities commited by the Chinese army in Tibet?
And excuse me but if they don't want to be chinese, no one should force them to be. They have their own territories, their own cultures, you have no right to occupy Tibet or to threaten Taiwan.


The reason is this island and Tibet are all inherited from our ancestors.

I am sure that u cant understand this reason,,meybe you will think its silly
.

You're right it's plain f*** dumb and it has nothing to do with the culture or the continent.Germans used the same stinky logic for the annexion of my region in the past.
It was only an agression to gain land, free Tibet (http://www.freetibet.org/info/key_issues.html).




Do you know who is the local leader in Tibet?

Dalai Lama is the local leader....

But do you know how can a tibetan be the Dalai Lama?

Answer the question..

You win the prize of the most unrelated reply ever.
I think it's pretty obvious that the Tibetans wants to be free in their own nation, just like the Taiwanese (?), it's enough for me to support their cause. Massacres of civilians and protesters obviously don't pay in your favor.
As for your question, i don't know and i don't care, nothing justify the suffering of the tibetan people.



You obviously dont know anything about Tibet..

Dalai Lama is the local leader of tibet...

Tibetans believe that Dalai Lama should be authorized by the emperor.

Central goverment will write dalai lama's name on a paper and put it into a golden bottle, then the man is a formal dalai lama..

This prove that tibet is a part of the whole China , like zhejiang ..shandong
,etc..


Where do you hear that the atrocities commited by the Chinese army in Tibet???

[Jehuty]

Are you even aware of the atrocities commited by the Chinese army in Tibet?

When? Where did you hear from?

Did you bother to read the link? Saying otherwise is revisionism. (or more likely brainwashing)



free Tibet

About Tibet (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18226)[/quote]

History is not a reason, you can claim everything with history but the reality is different.With history, Native Americans could claim back America, it sounds serious to you?
What i'm saying is simple, if a people with his own culture and his own territory wants to be a sovereign state (no matter what kind of state), nobody has the right to deny that.
Taiwan wants to be Taiwan, not China.Case closed for me.

[Jehuty]

This prove that tibet is a part of the whole China , like zhejiang ..shandong
,etc..


Then why do they resisted and protested against Chinese invasion, because they feel part of China?

[Xingbake]

You believe Dalai Lama can bring Tibet democracy? You think Dalai Lama is elected???? No!! it is appointed by the ex-Dalai Lama according to some providence.

And when Dala Lama was the leader of Tibet, the Tibet was still in salvery. Dala Lama was the biggest slaveholder himself. Tibet had the most cruel penality in the worldwide under the govern of Dala Lama at that time.

Now he pretends to be a nice guy and trys to gain the sympathy of the world. But what exactly he wants is his power and governer of Tibet.

[Bayonet]

This prove that tibet is a part of the whole China , like zhejiang ..shandong
,etc..


Then why do they resisted and protested against Chinese invasion, because they feel part of China?

Look here...Dalai Lama said

"We agree to Tibet's existence as the Tibetan Autonomous Region in China." (in Russia)
"I am not seeking independence, I am not seeking separation,"( Fri May 28, 2004 London)

[Xingbake]

This prove that tibet is a part of the whole China , like zhejiang ..shandong
,etc..


Then why do they resisted and protested against Chinese invasion, because they feel part of China?

From Ming Dynasty, the central gov't of China assigned viceroy to Tibet. All the Dalai Lamas inherit must be approved by the Chinese empiror before.

Even after 1949, at the begining the Dalai Lama also accepted the dominion of the central gov't. Don't forgot the PLA entered the Tibet peafully without any fighting. Dalai Lama also visited Beijig to meet with Mao and stayed in BJ for a while. But later, Dalai Lama initiated rebel in 1956 and be defeated.

[Jehuty]

You believe Dalai Lama can bring Tibet democracy? You think Dalai Lama is elected???? No!! it is appointed by the ex-Dalai Lama according to some providence.

And when Dala Lama was the leader of Tibet, the Tibet was still in salvery. Dala Lama was the biggest slaveholder himself. Tibet had the most cruel penality in the worldwide under the govern of Dala Lama at that time.

Now he pretends to be a nice guy and trys to gain the sympathy of the world. But what exactly he wants is his power and governer of Tibet.

Read my posts before replying for **** sake.
Look at the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#History
It seems that Tibet has fought a lot to be not chinese, and contrary to your claims, they have never been part of China, it was a just a relation of suzerainty.Before 1950, Tibet had his own army and currency, not to mention that chinese and Tibet cultures are far from being the same. (religion, language, etc...)
And excuse me but even if the Dalaï Lama is probably not a democratic guy, China hardly brings anything good to Tibet: 1.2 million of people killed, starvations and a clear attempt to destroy tibetan identity.
If Tibetan people don't want to get back to the old Feodal regim, it doesn't really mean they want to live under Chinese rule, as their resistance proved and still proves, and as i said it's not about democracy but about right of peoples to choose their destiny.
But considering that China sent more than 7 millions of settlers in Tibet, they are now a minority in their own country so the chances for them to gain back their independancy are low. :roll:

[ZeroPositive]

tbh I really hope Tibet be set free....

[Xingbake]

You believe Dalai Lama can bring Tibet democracy? You think Dalai Lama is elected???? No!! it is appointed by the ex-Dalai Lama according to some providence.

And when Dala Lama was the leader of Tibet, the Tibet was still in salvery. Dala Lama was the biggest slaveholder himself. Tibet had the most cruel penality in the worldwide under the govern of Dala Lama at that time.

Now he pretends to be a nice guy and trys to gain the sympathy of the world. But what exactly he wants is his power and governer of Tibet.

Read my posts before replying for f*** sake.
Look at the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#History
It seems that Tibet has fought a lot to be not chinese, and contrary to your claims, they have never been part of China, it was a just a relation of suzerainty.Before 1950, Tibet had his own army and currency, not to mention that chinese and Tibet cultures are far from being the same. (religion, language, etc...)
And excuse me but even if the Dalaï Lama is probably not a democratic guy, China hardly brings anything good to Tibet: 1.2 million of people killed, starvations and a clear attempt to destroy tibetan identity.
If Tibetan people don't want to get back to the old Feodal regim, it doesn't really mean they want to live under Chinese rule, as their resistance proved and still proves, and as i said it's not about democracy but about right of peoples to choose their destiny.
But considering that China sent more than 7 millions of settlers in Tibet, they are now a minority in their own country so the chances for them to gain back their independancy are low. :roll:

Don't throw this f*** website to us again and again. You think it is bible?? If you get all your conclusion just based on a sily website info., you are just a idiot yourself.

Have you ever been to Tibet and see with your own eyes before pasting all this f*** staff. I have been there and I know how much finainal support the central gov't give to Tibet. Tibet has the lowest tax rate in China and many of they even don't need to pay tax. All the infrastruture system is build by central gov't in Tibet free.

There are a lot of living buddha in Tibet's temples. Everyone of them dead, the gov't will allocate gold and dimond to the temple just for building their tomb!!!

[Bayonet]

And excuse me but even if the Dalaï Lama is probably not a democratic guy, China hardly brings anything good to Tibet: 1.2 million of people killed, :

1.2 million?!?!?! Are you kidding?
:D

In 1952 ..Dalai lama reported that there were more than 1 million tibetans lived in tibet...

You said PLA killed 1.2million..
PLA killed more than all of them??? rofl

In 1998,,statistics showed that population of tibetans are 2.2 million.

And tibetans take 94% of the whole population in tibet...
94% of the whole population in tiebet means minority...
Who is majority? The rest 6%?!?!

Where does your information come from ?!?!?!

[Jehuty]

Don't throw this f*** website to us again and again. You think it is bible??

No i think it's Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia. (you know this kind of things full of facts).But you can find the same kind of articles on several websites.
Chinese occupation has no legitimacy, it's about land and natural ressources.


If you get all your conclusion just based on a sily website info., you are just a idiot yourself.

That's right i should base them on chinese opinions :roll:


I have been there and I know how much finainal support the central gov't give to Tibet. Tibet has the lowest tax rate in China and many of they even don't need to pay tax. All the infrastruture system is build by central gov't in Tibet free.

"In spite of these material changes, however, Tibet remains one of the poorest regions in China, particularly its rural areas. In the mid-1990s the average annual per capita income for city dwellers was about $120, while rural people earned about half that amount. Although the Chinese government contributes subsidies to help offset Tibet’s low standard of living, controversy has developed over who benefits from this aid. China’s central government has admitted that more money has gone to better the lives of Chinese officials and workers in Tibet than the lives of Tibetans.."
From MSN Encarta.

But indeed this infrastructure system work well at brainwashing tibetan to erase all memories of their culture. And be happy, considering that no one in the world gives a crap you will suceed.


Where does your information come from ?!?!?!

I already provided links but apparently none of you seem to read them so i think it's pointless.About your first remark (the 1.2m of people), i'll let you think and try to find the answer by yourself, it must be hard but you can do it.(hint: since).

Obviously, you are in denial.I won't quote every ****ing online encyclopedy or websites about Tibet so end of the discussion.Good night.

[J-10]

Read my posts before replying for f*** sake.
Look at the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#History
It seems that Tibet has fought a lot to be not chinese, and contrary to your claims, they have never been part of China, it was a just a relation of suzerainty.Before 1950, Tibet had his own army and currency, not to mention that chinese and Tibet cultures are far from being the same. (religion, language, etc...)
And excuse me but even if the Dalaï Lama is probably not a democratic guy, China hardly brings anything good to Tibet: 1.2 million of people killed, starvations and a clear attempt to destroy tibetan identity.
If Tibetan people don't want to get back to the old Feodal regim, it doesn't really mean they want to live under Chinese rule, as their resistance proved and still proves, and as i said it's not about democracy but about right of peoples to choose their destiny.
But considering that China sent more than 7 millions of settlers in Tibet, they are now a minority in their own country so the chances for them to gain back their independancy are low. :roll:

All your information are from these Tibet separatist(in india) sites, filled with lie.

They were slave owners before 1959, they lost their benefit, because Hundreds of thousands serfs were liberated from the yoke of serfdom. So that they organized armed rebel in lhasa, killed central government representatives, then central government sent troops urgently from sichuan province, put down the rebellion. The 14th Dalai Lama and slave owners ran to India.

Now, the fourteenth Dalai Lama stated: "I am not seeking independence,"(in Canada) (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/17/canada/dalai_lama040417)

"We agree to Tibet's existence as the Tibetan Autonomous Region in China." (in Russia)
(http://www.interfax.com/com?id=5667612&item=Chin)
"I am not seeking independence, I am not seeking separation,"( Fri May 28, 2004 London) (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040528/wl_asia_afp/britain_china_tibet_040528140713)

[Omz222]

No i think it's Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia. (you know this kind of things full of facts).But you can find the same kind of articles on several websites.
Despite what's being said there, I wouldn't exactly call Wikipedia filled with 100% facts. I've personally even seen "edit wars" and such where two or even three just edit the page with their own opinion until no end.

[O-3]

i know for a fact that most , if not all Tibetans wish Tibet to be independent and free

and same story with the Taiwanese people, for whom do not wish to have anything to do with the Mainland

J-10 you must perceive everybody in the free world is as dense as you are, ie. be easily bought into the incredibile Commie propaganda.

[Jehuty]

All your information are from these Tibet separatist(in india) sites, filled with lie.

Yes Wikipedia is a well know Tibet "separatist" website. :roll:
And don't see why the version of China would be more credible, it's not really the land of freedom and human rights.


They were slave owners before 1959, they lost their benefit, because Hundreds of thousands serfs were liberated from the yoke of serfdom.

I wouldn't call a transition from a Feodal regim to a communist dictatorship a liberation.And there were still protests in Tibet in the 1990's.
Do you really believe China did nothing wrong in Tibet? If yes, it's really scary...
Face it, Tibet and Taiwai have nothing to do with your communist regim.

[Jehuty]

No i think it's Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia. (you know this kind of things full of facts).But you can find the same kind of articles on several websites.
Despite what's being said there, I wouldn't exactly call Wikipedia filled with 100% facts. I've personally even seen "edit wars" and such where two or even three just edit the page with their own opinion until no end.

Well that's true but it's often pretty accurate plus i checked other encyclopedias like MSN Encarta.
But i'd take 100 wikipedia articles over chinese people talking about liberation and denying atrocities. :slap:

[O-3]

No i think it's Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia. (you know this kind of things full of facts).But you can find the same kind of articles on several websites.
Despite what's being said there, I wouldn't exactly call Wikipedia filled with 100% facts. I've personally even seen "edit wars" and such where two or even three just edit the page with their own opinion until no end.

Well that's true but it's often pretty accurate plus i checked other encyclopedias like MSN Encarta.
But i'd take 100 wikipedia articles over chinese people talking about liberation and denying atrocities. :slap:cant put it better myself.

[limbstrong]

Western media simply hate PRC. So everything PRC has done must be evil. It's impossible for PLA to enter a place without massacre. ThAT'S the whole logic. Westerners used to laugh at us as being "brainwashed". However we are no more brainwashed than yourselves.

I don't want to argue with someone on what China had done in Tibet in 1950s, since neither you nor I have lived in that place at that time. The only fact is that when CIA and Dalai Lama dropped special troops in Tibet in 1960s, trying to "liberate the Tibetans from China cruelty", they were simply seized and handover to PLA by local Tibetan peasants. At that time most Tibetans were so grateful to CCP that they regard Mao Zedong as a deity.

Now there're Tibetan students in many universities in China cities, and I know several of them. None of them seeks independence. All are feeling proud of being Chinese. The so-called Free Tibet should only be a foolish dream of very little separists and some naive western people.

[sgtleemh]

i simply hope this sort of debates will some day take place among the PRC people themselves.

i really do.

[chengwudi]

OKOKOK
let's look for some essence through phenomenon about the bifurcation nowadays.
excuse me.the follow is only my idea.
A unitive powful China is not a good news to America, British , Japan , etc , even American 's enemy in any case .Of course, America want to see only one super country in the world.right??for example,before 1990,there are two super countrys ,but Soviet defeated by America at last,and divide into many countrys.The nobelist of peace is Mikhail Gorbachev in the same year .is that funny? :D The cold war is over,the world become more peaceful.
However,China is still a America's potential threaten ,especially in recent years,and probably change to a new super country.The best way is to intervene China's interior and disturb them who are concentrate on economy with Taiwan issue and Tibet issue(BTW,I think China will do the same thing if in the situation of America).The America's government is good at evil spirit his rival , it's can easily reflect through TV , video , newspaper , broadcasting etc.So, it's not diffcult for us to understand why American YA are easier to accept negative informations of China without thinking it over just like Taiwan issue and "6.4" affair. Maybe It is good that America does on the free speech,freedom and democracy but not perfect especially on certain issue(America always has two criterions to one issue),you will agree with me after Live for some time in other countries .
So, the Tibet issue and the taiwan issue are not simple political issue but the benefit conflict between the big countries .Donnot ask some babyish problems again such as "why do they resisted and protested against Chinese invasion, because they feel part of China?(Indian ??)" or "They have their own territories, their own cultures, you have no right to occupy Tibet or to threaten Taiwan.(black men??)" otherwise ,I will consider you have other special ideas which are not "easy to understand".

[chengwudi]

i simply hope this sort of debates will some day take place among the PRC people themselves.

i really do.

agreed, :D ;)

[Xingbake]

i simply hope this sort of debates will some day take place among the PRC people themselves.

i really do.

Never, Ever !

[ronin2172]

OKOKOK
let's look for some essence through phenomenon about the bifurcation nowadays.
excuse me.the follow is only my idea.
A unitive powful China is not a good news to America, British , Japan , etc , even American 's enemy in any case .Of course, America want to see only one super country in the world.right??for example,before 1990,there are two super countrys ,but Soviet defeated by America at last,and divide into many countrys.The nobelist of peace is Mikhail Gorbachev in the same year .is that funny? :D The cold war is over,the world become more peaceful.
However,China is still a America's potential threaten ,especially in recent years,and probably change to a new super country.The best way is to intervene China's interior and disturb them who are concentrate on economy with Taiwan issue and Tibet issue(BTW,I think China will do the same thing if in the situation of America).The America's government is good at evil spirit his rival , it's can easily reflect through TV , video , newspaper , broadcasting etc.So, it's not diffcult for us to understand why American YA are easier to accept negative informations of China without thinking it over just like Taiwan issue and "6.4" affair. Maybe It is good that America does on the free speech,freedom and democracy but not perfect especially on certain issue(America always has two criterions to one issue),you will agree with me after Live for some time in other countries .
So, the Tibet issue and the taiwan issue are not simple political issue but the benefit conflict between the big countries .Donnot ask some babyish problems again such as "why do they resisted and protested against Chinese invasion, because they feel part of China?(Indian ??)" or "They have their own territories, their own cultures, you have no right to occupy Tibet or to threaten Taiwan.(black men??)" otherwise ,I will consider you have other special ideas which are not "easy to understand".

THe US doesn't have to make CHina look bad, China does the job good enough all on it's own...remember Tianamen? China's reversal on all it's promises in Hong Kong...China's unfair economic practices....the Taiwan issue...Tibet...need i go on? And it's not just the US who thinks so...where do u think Jehuty is from....he is from France.

Now u try to justify chinese actions by bringing up the past (not even the recent past).....u try to compare something that happend centuries ago to something that is current (u ever hear of the term two wrongs don't make a right?).

OK the US doesn't have the greatest past but who does? The world has changed since then. Back then it was ok to import slaves and every country did it not just the US...how do u think (for the most part) black people got to central and southern america, places colonized by europeans? When did the US occupy anywhere in africa or threaten anywhere in africa (Like u r doing in Tibet and to Taiwan and implying the US did in Africa)? The US didn't become a global power till the late 19th century at the earliest (after slavery was abolished) Talk about posting BS.

The point is it's 2004 now not 1804 or 1704, the world is a different place and what China did/is doing in Tibet is wrong, China's continuous intimidation of Taiwan is wrong (don't tell me every time the Taiwanese have an election China has military exercises and test fires missles it's just a coincidence) Taiwan (Formosa) has never been part of the PRC, don't deny it, face up to it. When China faces up to it's sins that will be the first step to it becoming a better place and becoming a welcome addition to the international community.

[Xingbake]

The point is Japan even now-a-days deny all its sin in the WWII. Face up your own sin first! You think Japn is welcomed in Asian?

[tacticalmanta]

Japan is the trend setter for Asia though.. the most popular stars in Asia are the one's that look Japanese...this is true even in Chinese speaking countries. Likewise, most pacific rim countires look to the Japanese for fashion and innovation.

Of course, this has nothing to do with anything that should be discussed here.

Perhaps China should remember what happened the last time they threatened Japan. This time around Japan has no aggression or military interests in China... but China has a disturbingly broad aggressive stance these days.

[Xingbake]

Japan is the trend setter for Asia though.. the most popular stars in Asia are the one's that look Japanese...this is true even in Chinese speaking countries. Likewise, most pacific rim countires look to the Japanese for fashion and innovation.

Of course, this has nothing to do with anything that should be discussed here.

Perhaps China should remember what happened the last time they threatened Japan. This time around Japan has no aggression or military interests in China... but China has a disturbingly broad aggressive stance these days.

Are you living in Asia??? What you said it total nonsense. China looks to Japanese for fashion and innovation???? Are you sane???!!!!!

[dugdug]

Japan is the trend setter for Asia though.. the most popular stars in Asia are the one's that look Japanese...this is true even in Chinese speaking countries. Likewise, most pacific rim countires look to the Japanese for fashion and innovation.

Of course, this has nothing to do with anything that should be discussed here.

Perhaps China should remember what happened the last time they threatened Japan. This time around Japan has no aggression or military interests in China... but China has a disturbingly broad aggressive stance these days.

Are you living in Asia??? What you said it total nonsense. China looks to Japanese for fashion and innovation???? Are you sane???!!!!!

well, in hong kong, some of us do(fashion only).
i say the stars in hong kong are not trendy at all.
for me, not really but i like japan, coz japan is really fun

p.s. hong kong only

[chengwudi]

ronin2172,are you come from jap???
all right.i donnot need speak any more.Lead me to give regards to your America's papa.
BTW,get out my DiaoYu island and go back to shoot your AV!!

[chengwudi]

ronin2172
japan will be regained from all things learnt in China . remember what i said!

[sgtleemh]

i simply hope this sort of debates will some day take place among the PRC people themselves.

i really do.

Never, Ever !

..which kicks all the discussions about democratization of PRC back to nothing but a simple BS?

or were you just being sarcastic..

[ronin2172]

ronin2172,are you come from jap???
all right.i donnot need speak any more.Lead me to give regards to your America's papa.
BTW,get out my DiaoYu island and go back to shoot your AV!!
no i'm not from japan....and if i was so what, u anti-japanese? U a racist? Oh i get it u r still sore from all the ass whoopings japan gave u...get over it .
The point of my nationality has nothing to do whatsoever with this topic....i find it funny when i point out china's wrongdoings all the chinese can do is jump on my avatar and screename..... trying to deflect attention? If u must know i am american....i'll go even further i am african american....now how about u have some shrimp fried rice. Peking Duck, and an eggroll and STFU....stop trying to avoid the issue...and stop trying to be an internet thug with your lil threats (your second post, and it doesn't make any sense, but i understand english isn't your first language) u ain't impressing anyone rofl

[Xingbake]

Hahaha~~~~~ It's ridiculous!!!!! Those who know little about China and Asia always pretends he know everything.

How can I explain China-Japan history to an Africa American??? I give up.

[ronin2172]

Hahaha~~~~~ It's ridiculous!!!!! Those who know little about China and Asia always pretends he know everything.

How can I explain China-Japan history to an Africa American??? I give up.
i didn't ask u to try...did i? I don't care u still avoiding the issue and your racist tone is insulting....i guess u r saying that i am not smart enough...this is coming from a person who believes all the lies perpetuated by his government....whatever....

[tacticalmanta]

Um..I lived in Japan for awhile. And as you already know I read Chinese.. enough to know that many major magazines in Taiwan and Hong Kong have a trend setter section on Japan. Also a lot of Chinese movies make comments like, 'she's beautiful, she looks like a Japanese soap star.'

[LongWay]

No need to flame lads, Australia will be bloody classed as Asia soon tho which annoys me no offence to the Asians who got here legally but the ones who are border jumpers and taking over our country annoy me, doesnt matter ill probably be moving in Russia in a few years.

[Bayonet]

Everyone ...calm down... :D :D :D :D :D

Let's discuss not argue or insult... :D :D :D

Yes ...Some one mentioned Tiananmen 1989....Though I am a college student,,i dont support students in 1989.....
And we should admit that chinese government did something bad in 1989...They could't shoot students and other people......

But if government did nothing at that time and those students won,,,
the situation in China now would have been much worse.....

[Xingbake]

i didn't ask u to try...did i? I don't care u still avoiding the issue and your racist tone is insulting....i guess u r saying that i am not smart enough...this is coming from a person who believes all the lies perpetuated by his government....whatever....

Don't so sensitive!!! I never mean you're not smart enough. I mean you're too smart since you can comment on sth you totally don't understand.

[Jehuty]

Just forget it Ronin it's useless with them.
Chinese people are obviously not ready for democracy, and their power is growing more and more. Reassuring isn't it? :D

[ronin2172]

yea it is jehuty

[dugdug]

stop the bull**** the topic is abt aircrafts

[ronin2172]

stop the bull**** the topic is abt aircrafts
that topic was left a long time ago....so your statement is a lil too late

[chengwudi]

Democracy is not a reason which attacks China ,You will not know why I will be so excited at all .I only want to say that you know nothing to history.You two will only say some irresponsible and sarcastic remarks!
I am proud of the progress of the motherland .I am a nationalist because I have deep love for the my own country! Nationalism is not a derogatory term ,but it has become the tool that you insult me .the only explanation is that you are like to see a indignant Chinese .I have already said in the preceding post, all issues are the interests conflict among the big country,
no right and no fault. you can say that we are not ready for democracy ,
and I can say that you are wrong. what is democracy ?canyou give me a
definition ?Democracy is that you can abuse your leader in public occasion ? or is that select a leader of two men?I live in mainland ,and I know the truth of the fact ,our life is better and better,though our income is not high as yours , but the price is very low .To your surprise ,We can also put forward the suggestion to the government at any time through various kinds of ways .The Communist Party is not what in your magination. Our electoral system is the poeple's congress system ,hear for the first time? because your government didn't tell you for the support
to their policy to China of you(??forgive poor english).There are 1,300 million people in China ,if we adopt the ways to elect of other countries,that will be the enormous waste of the material resources and manpower (look at America),China cannot afford it.Our methods are electing the representatives in an area first ,Then electing the last leader step by step every 5 years (not 4).
ok,it's too late.I will discuss the Taiwan Issue tomorrow if I have spare time.I have calmed down with express my views in english. (:lol: too hard
to me)Good mid-night/Good afternoon

[sgtleemh]

i'd say some people are rather concerned about what the consequences are likely to be, when potentially one of the biggest countries in the region/world becomes all too nationalistic.

so threat or not, PRC needs to be 'balanced' either by other major power of the world, or by a democratized political system from within. a simple matter of Balance of Power.

i think this is more or less what we've been arguing about.. no? :roll:

[tacticalmanta]

we need to mobilise India!!

[xjym2002]

OMG! Don't believe...

Mods, please lock this one now.

[chengwudi]

i'd say some people are rather concerned about what the consequences are likely to be, when potentially one of the biggest countries in the region/world becomes all too nationalistic.

so threat or not, PRC needs to be 'balanced' either by other major power of the world, or by a democratized political system from within. a simple matter of Balance of Power.

i think this is more or less what we've been arguing about.. no? :roll:
Strong China is not a threat of the world ,When we are strongest, we have just built the Great Wall to protect ourselves .

[sgtleemh]

..just becuz you thought people other than yourselves were nothing more than babarians including us Koreans(東夷). (but i know the wall was against northern tribes(北狄), not us)

i hope you don't think or (more importantly) feel that way toward 'outside' any more. so i think buidling the Great Wall is far from being a good historical example for PRC's future role as an international major power/actor. such thing is no longer possible nor desirable, as you too are well aware of.. :)

[scrybe]

http://www.myupt.com/gfx/bail.jpg