San Fran Transit Police fatally shoot unarmed man

[randy10]

BART appeals for calm as footage shows shooting

man who was on

(01-04) 19:38 PST Oakland -- BART's police chief asked for patience from the public on Sunday after video footage surfaced showing one of his officers fatally shooting an unarmed man who was on the ground on a station platform on New Year's Day, and after an attorney for the dead man's family said he planned to sue the transit agency for $25 million.




Images

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BART Shooting


BART appeals for calm as footage shows shooting (1/5) (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/05/MN0R153LGU.DTL)
BART rider belly-down when shot, lawyer says (1/4) (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BAI9153CBO.DTL)
BART officer fatally shoots rider, 22 (1/2) (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/02/MNB9152I2Q.DTL)
KTVU: Witness video of the shooting (http://www.ktvu.com/video/18406962/index.html)
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Chief Gary Gee said he, too, had seen video images of the shooting of Oscar Grant, a 22-year-old supermarket worker from Hayward. But Gee said he found the footage to be inconclusive, and he said his investigators still needed to interview a key witness - the officer himself.
That officer, a two-year veteran, has not been publicly identified and has been placed on routine administrative leave. BART officials have said only that his handgun discharged at about 2:15 a.m. Thursday at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland and that the bullet struck the unarmed Grant, who had been detained with several others.
Officials have not said whether the officer intended to shoot Grant. One source familiar with the investigation said BART is looking into a number of issues, including whether the officer had meant to fire his Taser stun gun rather than his gun. Alameda County prosecutors are conducting their own investigation, as is standard in officer-involved shootings.
"We are taking this investigation very seriously," Gee said during a news conference at BART headquarters in Oakland on Sunday. "As frustrating as it is, I want to stress that we cannot and will not jeopardize this case by discussing details before the investigation is complete."
Gee spoke after attorney John Burris held his own news conference at his Oakland office, where he was surrounded by Grant's family members and friends and witnesses to the shooting.
Burris said he plans to file a $25 million claim this week against BART - a legal precursor to a civil lawsuit - because, he says, witness statements and video footage recorded by other passengers make clear that the shooting was unjustified.
"It is, without a doubt, the most unconscionable shooting I have ever seen," said Burris, who has won several damage awards against Bay Area police departments and worked on Rodney King's civil suit against the city of Los Angeles. "A price has to be paid. Accountability has to occur."
"It's pretty clear from the tape and from witnesses," Burris said, "that (Grant) wasn't doing anything of a threatening nature to the officer."
Burris said he has interviewed several young men who were with Grant when he was shot on the platform of the Fruitvale Station and has gone to the station with them to walk through a re-enactment. Burris said he has also viewed video from three different cameras.
Burris said he will file suit on behalf of Grant's mother, Wanda Johnson, and Grant's 4-year-old daughter, Tatiana.
David E. Mastagni, an attorney for the officer, declined to comment Sunday.
Grant was a butcher at Farmer Joe's Marketplace in Oakland's Dimond district, family members said. They said he loved to play basketball and video games and hang out with friends. He had been in some trouble, they said, but was doing better in recent months in an effort to be a good father.
According to sources, Grant had a prison record. Details were unavailable Sunday.
The officer

The officer who shot Grant has been with BART for about two years, is in his mid-20s, and has not been accused in the past of using excessive force, according to a source familiar with the investigation. The source described him as physically fit and respected by peers within the organization.
A source also revealed Sunday that BART police had been on edge before Grant's shooting because two guns had been recovered in separate incidents along the rail line in the hour before the shooting.
In one of the incidents, a teenage boy with a semiautomatic pistol had fled from police and jumped off the West Oakland Station platform, breaking several bones while landing. In another, the source said, a revolver was recovered after a fight at the Embarcadero Station in San Francisco.
Chief Gee said officers were called to the Fruitvale Station at 2 a.m. Thursday when police got a report that two groups of riders were fighting on a train that had just left the West Oakland Station and was headed for Dublin/Pleasanton. The officers then detained several people, the chief said.
Mario Pangelina Jr., a 23-year-old Hayward man whose sister, Sophina Mesa, was Grant's girlfriend and the mother of his child, said he saw some of what led to the shooting. He said officers had Grant against a wall on the platform. One officer briefly choked Grant, and someone pointed a Taser at him as well, Pangelina said.
Pangelina quoted Grant as saying, "Please don't tase me, please don't shoot me, I have a daughter."
Apparent struggle

Video footage taken by passengers, first shown by KTVU television, shows officers forcing Grant to the ground and trying to hold him down. The officer who shot Grant appears to try to put cuffs on him before drawing his weapon and firing. In the video, Grant appears to struggle with the officers, though it is unclear exactly what he was doing.
Burris said a single bullet went through Grant's lower back, hit the ground and ricocheted through his upper body. Grant died at Highland Hospital in Oakland several hours later.
Among other things, BART police are looking into the possibility that the officer who shot Grant thought he was pulling the trigger of a Taser stun gun, according to a person familiar with the investigation.
BART officials declined to say whether the officer was carrying a Taser - a device that sends out two electrical probes and can incapacitate its target - when he shot Grant. The agency uses Tasers but does not have enough of the expensive devices to give one to every officer.
Normally, officers who finish a shift give their Taser to an officer starting a shift. But with so many extra officers working on Wednesday and Thursday in expectation of holiday revelry, there were not enough Tasers to go around.
It is unusual for police officers to mistake their handgun for a Taser, but not unprecedented. Tasers are similar to many guns, with a trigger that must be pulled, a safety device that must be switched off, and laser sighting.
Many Bay Area police departments that use Tasers - including BART - force officers to take precautions, such as wearing them on the opposite side of their strong hand and facing backward. This requires officers to reach across their body to retrieve them.

Video of shooting

To view a videotape of the shooting obtained by KTVU, go to links.sfgate.com/ZFUR (http://links.sfgate.com/ZFUR).






http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BA0R153LGU.DTL&tsp=1

I don't see how the officer could have mistaken his handgun for a taser...

[Aerosoul]

Can't tell much from the video about whether or not it was justified. Certainly questionable.
Pretty hostile situation, bunch of worthless mofos as far as I'm concerned.

[futurepilot2004]

jesus that video is shocking.
Looks like cold blooded murder IMO.

[Aerosoul]

Watched it again....I'm not sure I would support the officer.
Not gonna cry for the thugs, either.

[BearInBunnySuit]

I couldn't see anything with the angle all lopsided but those bystanders were really loud and annoying.

[Albatross]

Oakland, like paradise only not. Place is like rikers without cages.

[Policía Loco]

I couldn't see in the video but I am going to assume he didn't place his Taser on his weak side.


Edit: I re-watched the video and it looks like the officer did in fact have his Taser on his weak side.

[BlackFlag]

Accidental discharge?

He could have been pointing his weapon on the suspect, and with all the craziness going on around him, pulled the trigger by mistake. I don't see how it would have been intentional, especially with a large crowd/camera present.

[Aerosoul]

Trigger finger discipline, perhaps.
Did the guy maybe hit an officer and then the other one shot him? Can't really tell.

[Troubadour]

A 16 year old kid in Detroit shot a 28 year old Cop in the head this week. Because the 16 year old kid didn't have a drivers license and got caught.

FVCK THAT GUY! Kill all these thugs, fvckin' scum.

[BlackFlag]

Trigger finger discipline, perhaps.
Did the guy maybe hit an officer and then the other one shot him? Can't really tell.

One word: Glocks.

[BlackFlag]

A 16 year old kid in Detroit shot a 28 year old Cop in the head this week. Because the 16 year old kid didn't have a drivers license and got caught.

FVCK THAT GUY! Kill all these thugs, fvckin' scum.

Yeah, that was pretty f*cked up. I hope he's tried as an adult.

[SBL]

You can't really tell whats going on in the video.

[Troubadour]

Honestly, after watching the video for a little bit. Do you understand how scared ****less those cops are in that situation and how shady the video taping is. It constantly goes black as something covers the lense. You can hear in the background shouts of violence towards the Police officers. The guy was resisting and seemed to be struggling, the gun went off.

No big deal. Oh, no a stupid thug died. Get on with your life, this is a guy that would of killed all of those cops without remorse.

"Witnesses say blah blah blah"

Yeah, great witnesses. I can hear the witnesses in the background screaming "Fvck the police!" and speaking less than intelligibly, I am sure they were great witnesses at 2:15 AM after getting out of the bars.

[BlackFlag]

Honestly, after watching the video for a little bit. Do you understand how scared ****less those cops are in that situation and how shady the video taping is. It constantly goes black as something covers the lense. You can hear in the background shouts of violence towards the Police officers.

i'm not defending or incriminating anyone here but...

Police officers are trained for high stress situations, they were doing exactly what they should have been doing, creating a perimiter in which there aren't isn't a threat to their back side, and not instigating the crowd. Why did the officer shoot the subdued suspect? Lack of discipline with a firearm.

[CG51]

Never heard the "n" word so many times, lol

To many animals around to see what happened.

[Troubadour]

Just because you're trained in high-stress situations doesn't mean that its going to exactly go that way. He might of meant to grab his taser and pulled out a firearm. Perhaps, he had the firearm pointed at the man to get him to comply a little better and it went off.

[BlackFlag]

Just because you're trained in high-stress situations doesn't mean that its going to exactly go that way. He might of meant to grab his taser and pulled out a firearm. Perhaps, he had the firearm pointed at the man to get him to comply a little better and it went off.

I hypothesis that is what happened more or less.

[Carib]

I couldn't tell if it was the guy in the foreground who was shot or one of the guys in the back with the group of officers. Looks like an accidental discharge.

Most of those people shoud've been on there way, that's that ghetto mentality where everyone feels they need to be involved in some drama. RIP

"According to sources, Grant had a prison record. Details were unavailable Sunday."

That doesn't surprise me. 22 working as butcher, playing video games and he's got a kid already.

[Bia]

the video says 22 min long and so far it's sideways backs of people... where does the incident take place.... timestamp?

[BiZ]

One word: Glocks.

Less than insightful comment. Trigger discipline is just that. External safety or not.

[randy10]

the video says 22 min long and so far it's sideways backs of people... where does the incident take place.... timestamp?

The video is very shaky but you can hear the shot @ 3:03.

The more I see this it looks like an accidental discharge. Will have to wait for them to finish the investigation.

[a deadly fart]

Yeah but the weird thing that keeps bugging me is that all the officers but the one that did the shooting gave their statements... as of today four days after the shooting the officer at the center of this has not been interviewed.... which makes me scratch my head.

[Bia]

The video is very shaky but you can hear the shot @ 3:03.

The more I see this it looks like an accidental discharge. Will have to wait for them to finish the investigation.
Yep found it.

For me there's no way to really tell what happened this video is inconclusive.

Reminds me of the video of the female officer backing her partner (las vegas PD I think) and her weapon discharged into the pavement inches from her partner and suspect... both looked up at her like she was insane.

[Aerosoul]

Except you see no reaction as to whether or not it was accidental in this video.
Inconclusive though, yes.

[jimmyboots]

The video is very shaky but you can hear the shot @ 3:03.

The more I see this it looks like an Negligent discharge. Will have to wait for them to finish the investigation.

Fixed, but then again who really knows. One things for sure, someone is gonna get very rich.

[ltrowley]

Calamitous situation, with unfortunate results.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.

[BlackFlag]

Less than insightful comment. Trigger discipline is just that. External safety or not.

Not even so much a lack of external safety. In a situation like that, I'd expect the safety to be off. I always thought a double action pistol (possibly with de-cocker) would be a safer/better choice for LEO's.

[Policía Loco]

Fixed, but then again who really knows. One things for sure, someone is gonna get very rich.

Won't happen. They will settle for a small amount. If not that, I'm not sure a judge would award what they are asking for, they never do. It's just better to start with a high number and work down than it is to try and get more than you initially asked for.

[ltrowley]

I feel the footage is totally inconclusive. A proper opinion of what really happened is impossible to achieve.

Who knows what was said over the din of the shouting? Maybe threats were made or threats of a weapon being produced could be heard by the police?

[Bia]

Diff view @ 1:38


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGXe5trQQw0

[BlackFlag]

Diff view @ 1:38


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGXe5trQQw0

Yeah, definately looked negligent.

[Policía Loco]

Yeah, definately looked negligent.

Yes, it does.

They said the attorney does not think it is racially motivated yet he wants civil rights charges filed against the officer?

[Alfacentori]

It looked like a very high stress situation, with the officers involved having to keep tabs on and deal with multiple hostile individuals.

Its in environments exactly like this that mistakes can happen and be made, that doesn't make it better of course but I can see how you could draw your issue in the heat of the moment and mistake it for a taser.

I would be interested to hear Laconian and other serving officers opinion on this>?

Alfa

[jimmyboots]

Won't happen. They will settle for a small amount. If not that, I'm not sure a judge would award what they are asking for, they never do. It's just better to start with a high number and work down than it is to try and get more than you initially asked for.

That until sharpton and his friends get a whiff of this story. The officer did seem not to know his four rules though.

[BlackFlag]

Yes, it does.

They said the attorney does not think it is racielly motivated yet he wants civil rights charges filed against the officer?

Yeah, if you sneeze on a black guy you risk Al Sharpton going on CNN and
screaming bloody racism.

[Policía Loco]

I would be interested to hear Laconian and other serving officers opinion on this>?



My opinion as an officer is that, just from seeing the video, he pulled his weapon to gain compliance, was nervous, with adrenaline running through him, and poor trigger discipline fired a round that killed the subject and his career.

On a side note, being the rookie officer he is, his FTO is probably sweating like a whore in church.

[Bia]

I'm a little surprised the family lawyer wants charges filed with the DA before any conclusion has been made.

Odd

[Policía Loco]

Money. He wants a name for himeself. He's a lawyer.

[Troubadour]

He meant to grab the tazer and grabbed his weapon.

[jimmyboots]

Maybe its not the best thing to make tasers feel like issued weapons. Still would be a training issue though.

[Alfacentori]

My opinion as an officer is that, just from seeing the video, he pulled his weapon to gain compliance, was nervous, with adrenaline running through him, and poor trigger discipline fired a round that killed the subject and his career.

On a side note, being the rookie officer he is, his FTO is probably sweating like a whore in church.

Yeah that's a very real possibility, the Taser angle was mentioned by the article but not as a direct reason given by the officer in question.

Either way really adrenaline caused by the circumstances and poor training, in differing amounts, may ultimately prove the cause of this unfortunate death.

The officer had been in service for around 2 years, not exactly a veteran as the article claims, mind you even veterans can make mistakes I guess.

Alfa

[Bulletproof]

In the last seconds you see a stupid fvck throwing something at the cops... Great way to cool down the situation... I love how these idiots are so quick at waving the racism card. Like every "white" cops is looking for that golden chance to get some... From the youtube it really look like a neg discharge.

[usa320]

Honestly, after watching the video for a little bit. Do you understand how scared ****less those cops are in that situation and how shady the video taping is. It constantly goes black as something covers the lense. You can hear in the background shouts of violence towards the Police officers. The guy was resisting and seemed to be struggling, the gun went off.

No big deal. Oh, no a stupid thug died. Get on with your life, this is a guy that would of killed all of those cops without remorse.

"Witnesses say blah blah blah"

Yeah, great witnesses. I can hear the witnesses in the background screaming "Fvck the police!" and speaking less than intelligibly, I am sure they were great witnesses at 2:15 AM after getting out of the bars.

x2...

im sick of scum like this dragging down the entire community around them...The big group of people clearly were interested in harming the officers, so i wont be playing them a sad song on the violin anytime soon....

Id also be interested to see why he was originally arrested.

[Ordie]

I'm a daily BART rider.

Speaking from personal experiences, BART police, like suburban cops, have a tendency of being overzealous at times. Especially on people who skipped paying their fares. As compared to SFPD or OPD, BART PD are not as experienced in dealing with street issues.

In this situation, I think it was the last train in the evening and stopped at Fruitvale (East Oakland). I don't know the circumstances of the arrest, but I assume it was for fare evasion.

Given it was the last crowded train of the evening, and stopped, the arrests had worked up the crowd. From the looks of the BART cops, they were scared. What the cops should have done, was ask the train operator to close the door and go. Separate the crowd from the suspects.

[Ghostwolf]

BART press conference video (January 4th)
http://www.bart.gov/news/barttv/?&cat=48&id=477

BART police chief statement
http://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2009/news20090104.aspx

[randy10]

Diff view @ 1:38


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGXe5trQQw0

Thanks, that is a much better view of the incident.

[Bruisercruiser]

Yes, it does.

They said the attorney does not think it is racially motivated yet he wants civil rights charges filed against the officer?

Civil rights protection are broader than just protection from a cop who kills someone who happens to be a different skin color. I'm not taking sides in this particular incident, but it certainly looks like a case could be made that the police officer may have violated (among others) the defendant's protection under the Fifth Amendment, No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

[Troubadour]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/iamthelawkp5.jpg/1/w281.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img147/iamthelawkp5.jpg/1/)
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9066/iamthelawkp5.jpg

[SOG]

All I have to say is those people who kept walking up on the cops and yelling have **** for brains. Retarded thugs. No idea if it was justified or not but who cares, that's for a jury to decide.

[Macs.]

All I have to say is those people who kept walking up on the cops and yelling have **** for brains. Retarded thugs.

They simply acted like wild apes.

But from the second view, doesn't look very good for the police officer, I wonder what the reason was to unholster the gun in such a situation.

[Somalimafia]

Video: Calif. cop shoots apparently helpless man in the back
David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Published: Monday January 5, 2009


Two videos showing a Bay Area Rapid Transit police officer fatally shooting an unarmed, cooperating 22-year-old man have surfaced, thanks to a vigilant teen and an anonymous cameraman.

According to officials (http://www.insidebayarea.com/dailyreview/localnews/ci_11369405?source=rss), five officers arrived at a subway station around 2 a.m. in response to reports of fighting on a train. Officers handcuffed a group of suspects, and detained the soon-to-be victim, Oscar Grant III.

In both videos, though detained, Grant had clearly not been cuffed.

Mario Pangelina Jr., aunt to Grant's four-year-old daughter, witnessed the events leading up to the shooting.

"First, an officer grabbed Oscar by the neck and pushed him against the wall," the Oakland Tribune (http://www.insidebayarea.com/dailyreview/localnews/ci_11369405?source=rss) quoted (http://www.insidebayarea.com/dailyreview/localnews/ci_11369405?source=rss) her as saying. "Oscar didn't fight him, but he didn't go down either. He was like, 'What did I do?' Then another officer came up with his Taser and held it right in his face. Oscar said, 'Please don't shoot me, please don't Taser me, I have a daughter,' over and over again, real fast, and he sat down."

Footage captured by camera-phone-wielding Karina Vargas, 19, shows officers had detained several men. Over the proceeding minutes, officers become defensive as groups of yelling youths stand on the periphery and meander past.

At one point, a male shouts, "Yo, f--k the police!"

Vargas several times makes attempts to get closer. When her camera focuses on Grant, he is sitting with his back against a wall, surrounded by others in handcuffs. He holds up his hands, apparently speaking with the officers, when they force him to the ground.

Two officers struggle to turn him over, even as he appears to be strewn across another man's legs, when suddenly one of the men retrieves his gun from its holster.

At this point in Vargas' video, she turns to her immediate left and focuses on an officer wrestling another man to the ground. Then, the shot rings out.

San Francisco's KTVU aired a second video clip (http://www.ktvu.com/video/18409133/index.html) from an anonymous witness. In it, Grant is clearly pinned by two officers and completely immobile. Then, without provocation, the officer at Grant's waist draws his weapon and fires.

After the gunshot, as the audio track dissolves into indiscernible shouting and commotion, an enraged onlooker hurls an object at the police. Vargas retreats to her train and peeks the camera at the officers again.

"They just shot him! They just shot him!" she yells. "... I got you, mothaf--kers!"

The victim was fatally wounded when the bullet passed through his back, hit the ground, and ricocheted into his lungs. He died in a hospital several hours later.

Grant's mother and daughter are being represented by civil rights attorney John Burris, who has a history of work on police abuse issues, including the beating of Rodney King. At a Sunday news conference, Burris called (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BA0R153LGU.DTL&tsp=1) the incident "without a doubt, the most unconscionable shooting I have ever seen."

A person close to the investigation told the San Francisco Chronicle that BART officials are looking into the possibility that the officer thought he was firing a Taser and pulled out his gun by mistake.

Last June, a Maryland district court found (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BA0R153LGU.DTL&tsp=1) that an officer who shot a fleeing suspect in the elbow while believing he was firing his Taser was not guilty of violating the suspect's rights against unreasonable search and seizure.

Burris has announced a civil suit against BART for $25 million. He has also recommended that charges of second-degree murder or manslaughter be filed against the officer.

"It's pretty clear from the tape and from witnesses that he wasn't doing anything of a threatening nature to the officer," Burris said at a Jan. 4 press conference.

He added that he's seen footage from three other cameras that captured Grant's slaying.

The Bay Area police are appealing to the public (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BA0R153LGU.DTL) for "calm."

"We are taking this investigation very seriously," said Chief Gary Gee during a Sunday press conference. "As frustrating as it is, I want to stress that we cannot and will not jeopardize this case by discussing details before the investigation is complete."

This video is raw footage from Vargas' cell phone, captured Jan. 1, 2009 in San Francisco.Videos of the situation:

(graphic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/de9T1jdcnTg

family press conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/ktHO-xmvWao

video from camera phone embedded at the bottom:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Video_shows_police_shooting_man_laying_0105.html

Shot fired at 2 min 55 sec

Another video: http://www.ktvu.com/video/18409133/index.html

Very disturbing news. :|

EDIT: On second thought, it would perhaps be better if this is moved into the Political or Offtopic section.

[p$ycho+log!cal]

ive seen the whole video on some site i wont mention but the guy and his friends were not that cooperative but still not a reason to shoot the guy.....that was useless
anyway this thread will turn to a cops vs citizen war again .....lets just say RIP to the victim and hope we get clear investigation on the officer

[Carib]

They simply acted like wild apes.



welcome to inner city America

[Somalimafia]

I agree. They were quite disorderly based on the video.

Rest in peace. I hope this matter will be completely solved in a court of law.

[Ordie]

The prevailing theory is that the police officer intended to fire a taser instead of his gun.




BART officer has yet to give account in shooting

Demian Bulwa, Chronicle Staff Writer (dbulwa@sfchronicle.com)
Tuesday, January 6, 2009
[/URL] (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAK61540MH.DTL&o=0&type=printable) [URL="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAK61540MH.DTL&o=3&type=printable"] (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAK61540MH.DTL&o=2&type=printable) More... (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAK61540MH.DTL&o=4&type=printable)



(01-05) 22:30 PST PST Oakland -- Five days have passed since a BART police officer shot and killed an unarmed rider on a station platform, but the officer has not given a statement to investigators about what happened and the transit agency has apparently not forced him to do so.
The delay comes as witnesses emerge with their accounts of what happened, some with video footage of the incident recorded on cellular phones. The hold-up is one reason why BART officials - even in the face of public outcry - have said little publicly about the shooting, including whether they believe it was justified.
BART has not released the officer's name, but The Chronicle has learned that the officer is two-year BART police veteran Johannes Mehserle, who turned 27 on Monday and whose first child was born within a day or two of the shooting - an event that may be a contributing factor to why Mehserle has not yet explained the shooting to investigators.
Mehserle could not be reached for comment on Monday.
Officials have only said that Mehserle's gun discharged, killing 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward. He had been detained and forced to lie chest down on the ground at Oakland's Fruitvale Station after 2 a.m. in the chaotic aftermath of a fight on BART on New Year's Day. BART has promised a thorough probe, and Alameda County prosecutors are investigating as well, as is standard in officer-involved shootings.
But the delay is troubling to John Burris, the Oakland attorney who is representing Grant's family and who plans to file a $25 million damage claim today against the transit agency, a legal precursor to a civil lawsuit. Burris is also calling for the officer to be charged criminally.
Burris, who has represented clients in more than a dozen officer-involved shootings, said he had never seen such a long delay before an officer makes a statement to investigators. He said it raises the possibility that the statement could be affected by the video footage and by loss of memory, among other things.
"It's pretty shocking to me," Burris said. "When you delay like this, it raises questions about the integrity of the investigation. It raises the question, 'What has BART been doing?' You want to prevent collusion. You want to prevent people from tailoring their statements to the evidence."
BART spokesman Linton Johnson said Monday that Mehserle had not yet given a statement, but did not provide further details. David E. Mastagni, an attorney for Mehserle, declined to comment on Monday.
Michael Rains, a Pleasant Hill attorney who has represented officers in use-of-force cases and taught courses on internal investigations, said the public should not read anything into the officer's motives without knowing exactly what happened on the platform and what efforts BART investigators and prosecutors have made to arrange or compel an interview.
Rains also said he did not believe Mehserle's statement would be tainted by a delay, even if he had seen video footage of the shooting.
However, Rains said police agencies typically move fast to probe officer-involved shootings that are generating controversy. Often, he said, an officer will be asked to give a statement on the same day as the shooting.
Officers, like anyone else, have a right to remain silent when questioned in connection with possible criminal charges. Rains said lawyers sometimes advise officers not to talk immediately due to their emotional state.
But police agencies can order an officer - under threat of firing - to speak to internal affairs investigators during a separate administrative probe. Those investigators must decide if the officer should be disciplined for breaking agency rules.
"Typically when you have something that is controversial, agencies are in a hurry to get the investigation done," Rains said. "They want to get some answers out there. They will usually rush into an administrative investigation."
Rains added that he and his clients had "walked out of an interview room with (criminal) detectives only to be greeted by internal affairs investigators."
Statements that officers make to internal affairs investigators cannot be used in criminal court, Rains said. However, it is possible that the statements may be shown to prosecutors, who could gain an advantage even if they can't directly use the statements.
"No one can fault the officer and say he's done something terrible because he invokes a constitutional right," Rains said. "If a law enforcement agency isn't compelling a statement right away, that's not the officer's fault either."
While BART has said little publicly, a source familiar with the investigation said the agency is looking into many leads, including the possibility that the officer had intended to fire his Taser stun gun instead of his gun.
Don Cameron, a former BART police sergeant and weapons expert who now teaches police officers about proper use of force, said Monday that he had watched footage of Grant's death and was convinced that the officer had meant to fire a Taser - a device that he said BART began using recently.
Footage taken from inside a BART car by a phone camera, first shown by KTVU television, shows officers forcing Grant to the ground and trying to hold him down. One officer appears to try to put cuffs on him before drawing his weapon and firing. In the video, Grant appears to struggle with the officers, though it is unclear exactly what he was doing.
Cameron said he made his conclusion based in part on the officer's stance, and the fact that a second officer moved away from Grant just before he was shot, perhaps trying to avoid a second-hand shock.
"If someone was actively resisting, which it appeared this guy was, the device to use would be the Taser, to overcome his resistance," Cameron said. "The Taser is a great controlling device. But if you grab the wrong device, you kill somebody."


Note: Don Cameron was our self defense instructor for shipboard security 20 years ago at NAS Alameda. This guy is pro and has trained thousand of Bay Area cops on take-down techniques.

[Laworkerbee]

The prevailing theory is that the police officer intended to fire a taser instead of his gun.

The thing is; he clearly unholsters his weapon, stands, aims and then fires, there really can be no disputing the fact that he confused his taser with his firearm.

[RECON DOC]

The thing is; he clearly unholsters his weapon, stands, aims and then fires, there really can be no disputing the fact that he confused his taser with his firearm.

Woopsy.......

[JJHH]

What is the link of this article to military photos?

[The Evil Doctor Faustus]

i thought this was gonna be a gay joke or somet......oh dear

[p$ycho+log!cal]

people around were going wild : Yes.
they should of stfu? : Yes.
did the other officers around tripped out: No.
a huge mistake : Yes.

on another note, its curious how i see video's of man armed with knife's and other weapons and yet police doesnt shoot at them and manage to disarm them with various objects or technique and i see other cops from the same country that shoot at unarmed people on the ground............weird
lets be honest the guy was NOT a threat, he had this 200 pound dude with his knee on his neck...

[BAF]

they said here on the news, that BART is a private police force from the subway, so are these cops really cops like their San fransico collegues or just security with guns?

[BearInBunnySuit]

Anyone think the outcome would have been different if there wasn't a crowd, jeering and yelling?

[SBL]

I'm a daily BART rider.

Speaking from personal experiences, BART police, like suburban cops, have a tendency of being overzealous at times. Especially on people who skipped paying their fares. As compared to SFPD or OPD, BART PD are not as experienced in dealing with street issues.

In this situation, I think it was the last train in the evening and stopped at Fruitvale (East Oakland). I don't know the circumstances of the arrest, but I assume it was for fare evasion.

Given it was the last crowded train of the evening, and stopped, the arrests had worked up the crowd. From the looks of the BART cops, they were scared. What the cops should have done, was ask the train operator to close the door and go. Separate the crowd from the suspects.
Mind citing some examples?

[Laworkerbee]

Anyone think the outcome would have been different if there wasn't a crowd, jeering and yelling?

The crowd shouldn't make a difference, the officers should have been trained (I'm assuming they were) for such occasions.

[BAF]

What is the link of this article to military photos?


Many posters here are police officers, you could say that cops/military etc are "close" togehter so why not post it here?

[BearInBunnySuit]

The crowd shouldn't make a difference, the officers should have been trained (I'm assuming they were) for such occasions.

True but the officer in question worked for only 2 years and training or not, I'm thinking most of his duties involved handing out tickets for unpaid parking fees at Bart parking lots.

[BAF]

well just did a little googling, altough i dont fully understand the way police works in the USA, it does seem like that BART isnt a regular police force, so maybe those guys arent so well trainend for situations like that. i dont know, i'm just thinking this from what i see and read. please correct me if i'm wrong

[Universal_Soldier]

ive seen the whole video on some site i wont mention but the guy and his friends were not that cooperative but still not a reason to shoot the guy.....that was useless
anyway this thread will turn to a cops vs citizen war again .....lets just say RIP to the victim and hope we get clear investigation on the officer

you just claimed you've seen a video and then say you are not gonna shear the source. "classified website" ...Most likely the site doesn't exist.

RIP Oscar Grant.

[Bruisercruiser]

When you say BART isn't a regular police force what do you mean? Here in the Philadelphia area we have SEPTA Police who are responsible for policing the SEPTA railways (South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority). They are a police force who was created and given power by the state of PA.

Based on a web search, it appears BART is in fact a police department tasked with policing the Bay area transit lines and is trained for a wide variety of policing duties. Here's their website: http://www.bart.gov/about/police/

The BART Police Department is comprised of 296 personnel, of which 206 are sworn peace officers anywhere in California. Chief of Police Gary Gee commands the department that is BART's sole law-enforcement entity and provides the full range of police services. To prepare for major emergencies, critical incidents, and tactical responses, the department is a signatory to the Bay Area's mutual-aid pacts and has teams of highly trained officers for tactical response and/or crisis negotiations.

Not sure if many of you have traveled on a major U.S. city transit service lately but handing out parking tickets appears to be the least of their worries. I would bet that their number one focus in training is handling situations very similar to the recent incident. Sometimes things go FUBAR despite how much training you have.

[Baboonass]

There is no way of telling exactly what happend or who did what.

There was obviously some sort of struggle on the ground, there was a cop at his head that suddenly jumps off just before the other cop shoots.

Could the guy on the ground been reaching for something in the struggle?

Could the cops have been trying to keep him from doing so in fear he had his own gun?

Could the guy on the ground been sucessfull in reaching into his waistband were a gun could have been and the cop shot him in self defence?


There are a lot of unanswered questions and some very pertainent details left out of this to form any sort of conclusion.

Cops have to make life and death decisions in the blink of an eye. Sometimes these decision don't pan out.

Bottom line is this, if a cop tells you to do something, friggen do it!

[Bia]

I'm thinking most of his duties involved handing out tickets for unpaid parking fees at Bart parking lots.That's opinion^.... not fact.

[BearInBunnySuit]

That's opinion^.... not fact.

I'm not saying it's fact.

I commute on Bart and overall, I feel relatively safe and I have witnessed only one incident that involved cops. So I don't think these incidents are routine which means the cops may have been under greater pressure than usual.

[Bia]

It's a moot point though. I'm sure most police officers daily duties dont involve shootouts.

[p$ycho+log!cal]

you just claimed you've seen a video and then say you are not gonna shear the source. "classified website" ...Most likely the site doesn't exist.

RIP Oscar Grant.

jeez u noob it is becuz it is a RESTRICTED WEBSITE on this forum, so i wont mention the name, browse tru the web and ull find alot of vid concerning this incident...
youtube etc...

[Bia]

Go to offtopic forum here and this same topic was started yesterday and goes in depth discussion.

[Bruisercruiser]

I'm not saying it's fact.

OK gotcha ;-)

What I keep wondering is if there is surveillance video that hasn't been released yet?

[kahuna]

Too many excuses are being made for this police officers lack of discipline , common sense, or whatever else you want to call it. I totally agree with this not being racially motivated. That still does not excuse what's going on here, what possible reason would the officer have to reach for a taser gun? He and another officer had the guy in a subdued position that he could not have gotten out of without hurting himself.

It would have been more prudent to just cuff him and move him off if he was being unruly, which is not shown in any of the videos I have seen on this matter. I am not saying the officer intentionally killed him however, if he was a civilian this would still be at best for the officer be criminally negligent homicide. I come from a househould of proud police officers(NYPD) whom have all found this utterly ridiculous. If he was in the military it would not have been tolerated and it should not be tolerated here. My heart goes out to the officer for the s**tstorm he unleashed upon himself but, again seeing as so many here wrote the victim off as an animal please don't be angry if I feel the officer is an idiot.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

People who are so anxious to film police brutality should take lessons in video technique.

RIP.

[Ordie]

BART is a self governing transit district (akin to a Community College district with its own police force) with its own in-house police force with juristiction of BART property (Rail, facilities, stations parking lots).

Most American transit agencies usually contracts with the local sheriffs.

[Ordie]

I'm not saying it's fact.

I commute on Bart and overall, I feel relatively safe and I have witnessed only one incident that involved cops. So I don't think these incidents are routine which means the cops may have been under greater pressure than usual.

X2

BART cops are not urban street beat cops.

[Ordie]

Mind citing some examples?

Fare enforcement in San Francisco MUNI are done by fare enforcement officers. They are usually unarmed and write a citation for fare evasion. Give you a ticket and you're on you merry way. No fuss..Its akin of getting a citation from a meter maid.

Fare enforcement on BART is done by armed BART police, usually in pairs, pat you down, check if you have outstanding warrants, everyone is looking at you as if you robbed a bank and escort you out of the station where you may or may not have means to get home.

San Francisco urban cops, will not bother you if you're smoking a joint. It's not worth the paperwork. Besides, it takes them off-their beat if and when a more serious crime is happening.

San Francisco suburban cops, will send three units and a detective if you're smoking a joint. Because they have nothing better to do.

[Laworkerbee]

San Francisco urban cops, will not bother you if you're smoking a joint. It's not worth the paperwork. Besides, it takes them off-their beat if and when a more serious crime is happening.

San Francisco suburban cops, will send three units and a detective if you're smoking a joint. Because they have nothing better to do.

Same thing down here, I figure it's the same in any major metropolitan area.

[HKPRO]

1. Does BART issue Tasers?

2. Was shooting officer also armed with Taser?

3. Mistaken deployment gun/Taser?

[Ordie]

http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2009/01/06/010609-800x646-meyers.jpg

Todays' SF Chronicle.

[SBL]

Fare enforcement in San Francisco MUNI are done by fare enforcement officers. They are usually unarmed and write a citation for fare evasion. Give you a ticket and you're on you merry way. No fuss..Its akin of getting a citation from a meter maid.

Fare enforcement on BART is done by armed BART police, usually in pairs, pat you down, check if you have outstanding warrants, everyone is looking at you as if you robbed a bank and escort you out of the station where you may or may not have means to get home.

San Francisco urban cops, will not bother you if you're smoking a joint. It's not worth the paperwork. Besides, it takes them off-their beat if and when a more serious crime is happening.

San Francisco suburban cops, will send three units and a detective if you're smoking a joint. Because they have nothing better to do.


1. Pay your fare.
2. Don't smoke joints in public.

[Bruisercruiser]

From the BART PD website, The District also utilizes video-surveillance systems in trains, stations, and parking lots.
So there may be another video of the incident.

[SOG]

they said here on the news, that BART is a private police force from the subway, so are these cops really cops like their San fransico collegues or just security with guns?

Excellent question. That would explain a few things.


They simply acted like wild apes.

But from the second view, doesn't look very good for the police officer, I wonder what the reason was to unholster the gun in such a situation.

Yeah I don't know what he was thinking. Not good for the officer or for the city.



Bottom line is this, if a cop tells you to do something, friggen do it!

I've never understood people who argue with guns pointed at their face.

[Art Vandelay]

I wasn't too surprised when I heard the news of this story because several years ago I saw a little teenage Filipino ****bird shine a laser pointer at a BART cop and it hit him right in the eye. The cop had no idea what was going on but it took about 3 milliseconds for him to put his hand on his gun and upholster the thing like it was the O.K. Corral. I don't know if BART PD guys are bottom of the barrel or what but clearly there is some ineptitude going on there.

[Euroamerican]

1. Pay your fare.
2. Don't smoke joints in public.

3. Don't hang out with people who are harrassing cops.
4. Don't be out drinking late at night on amateur night (New Years' Eve, Halloween, Your local football team's home game nights, etc)


Oh, and anyone pointing a laser at a cop should be assumed to actually be pointing a laser-sighted weapon at a cop; and be treated accordingly.

[Lefty]

Wait, so the think he pulled his sidearm thinking it was his taser? That's a hell of a mistake. I'm out of my lane on this, but don't some Depts require the taser on weakside for that reason? I'm only speaking of my University Department, but it does not seem like a bad idea, then again, I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Nizark]

Get it right asswipes, this wasn't San Francisco police and it didn't take place in San Francisco. Happened at Fruitvale station in Oakland. BART police are simply transit police, not a city police force. They are fully credentialed and go through the normal police academy.
This guy seemed to have pull the wrong weapon and BART is gonna settle for somewhere around 5-10 million bucks. It sucks that this happened, but if he did have a tazer on the same side as his gun...WHY? I can understand being right/left handed, but also aren't tazers yellow and not black? Probably lighter too.

Mods for accuracy sake, please change the title to 'Transit Cop..etc.'

[bababooey]

Wow...that was cold.

[Hyde]

Fking unbelieveable...just saw both videos and i am shocked by the police, there is so much overreaction without any cause, so a few dudes fought on a train, wow, tell me something new... no need to make a drama, the police is acting like they caught some guys during the watts riots...it is just unbelieveable.. have no clear words...

[HGRazorR]

Get it right asswipes, this wasn't San Francisco police and it didn't take place in San Francisco. Happened at Fruitvale station in Oakland. BART police are simply transit police, not a city police force. They are fully credentialed and go through the normal police academy.
This guy seemed to have pull the wrong weapon and BART is gonna settle for somewhere around 5-10 million bucks. It sucks that this happened, but if he did have a tazer on the same side as his gun...WHY? I can understand being right/left handed, but also aren't tazers yellow and not black? Probably lighter too.

Mods for accuracy sake, please change the title to 'Transit Cop..etc.'

Yes, there CAN be a weight difference depending on what type of sidearm he's carrying. The tazer that I got to train with was black, but the part that holds the firing tongs or whatever you want to call it that you loaded on to the tazer was marked by big yellow bands. Based on the look of surprise of the officer firing, it does look like he thought he had his tazer. The article on cnn said that he was warned he could be tazed, and then the victim stating, "Please don't taze me, I have a 4 yr old daughter."

[ed gripen]

Oh, and anyone pointing a laser at a cop should be assumed to actually be pointing a laser-sighted weapon at a cop; and be treated accordingly

x2. Got drive-by zapped in right eye c.10yrs ago in London; sudden sharp pain, almost dropped bag, hazy sight/disoriented briefly. Dr said was 'all in the mind, theyre harmless'. but he declined to let me try on him.

[Bruisercruiser]

Maybe we can merge since this was started yesterday in another thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149073

[bababooey]

Its symptomatic of the demise of respect for law enforcement in general. IMO, when you go to get your license to drive, everyone should be made to this watch Chris Rock educational video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrGP02DCx_Q

Can I get an imbed?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Its symptomatic of the demise of respect for law enforcement in general. IMO, when you go to get your license to drive, everyone should be made to this watch Chris Rock educational video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrGP02DCx_Q

Can I get an imbed?http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/SrGP02DCx_Q

Agree with you as well.

[Bia]

I've always said carrying around a plastic 9mm isnt a good thing.

Dirty Harry... for the win.

[Ordie]

Officer in BART shooting quits force, avoids internal affairs quizzing

Demian Bulwa,Henry K. Lee, Chronicle Staff Writers
Wednesday, January 7, 2009
http://imgs.sfgate.com/g/av/movies/2009/01/07_t/44123@kpix.dayport.com.cbs5_t.jpg (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/07/BA2N155BAH.DTL&o=0&type=printable)



(01-07) 15:18 PST OAKLAND -- The BART police officer who shot an unarmed man to death on the platform of the Fruitvale Station in Oakland early New Year's Day resigned from the force today, avoiding an interview with police internal affairs investigators about the incident.
Officer Johannes Mehserle, 27, was supposed to have been questioned today by internal affairs about why he shot Oscar Grant, 22, of Hayward as Grant lay face down on the station platform, BART spokesman Linton Johnson said.
However, Mehserle did not show up for the interview. Instead, his lawyer and union representative appeared and handed over a short resignation letter, Johnson said.
Mehserle's resignation is effective immediately. BART said its investigation of the shooting would continue, as will a separate investigation by the Alameda County district attorney's office.
BART had come under fire from John Burris, the attorney for Grant's family, for not having forced Mehserle to talk with internal affairs investigators since the shooting. Unlike in criminal investigations, in which a suspect has the right not to talk to police, officers involved in on-the-job shootings must talk to inspectors as part of administrative inquiries or risk being fired.
Mehserle's resignation means he does not have to talk to BART investigators.
"I'm not surprised," Burris said of Mehserle's departure. "It should have happened long ago."
Anger over Grant's death was evident this afternoon at Fruitvale Station, where about 200 protesters gathered just after 3 p.m. outside the entrance to the station. The demonstrators were not obstructing passengers.
Johnson said today that Mehserle's attorney, David Mastagni, had postponed a meeting between the officer and internal affairs investigators that had been set for Tuesday and wanted to reschedule it for next week. Instead, BART told Mehserle to show up this morning, Johnson said.
Mehserle resigned the same day that Grant's family gathered in Hayward for his funeral. Burris has filed a $25 million claim against BART on behalf of Grant's mother and 4-year-old daughter, the likely precursor to a lawsuit.
In the claim, Burris said Mehserle "mercilessly fired his weapon" at Grant after the supermarket butcher and several friends were pulled off a train at the Fruitvale Station following a reported dispute with another group of passengers.
Grant was unarmed when he was shot in the back; the bullet went through him and ricocheted off the platform, then hit him again in the torso.
BART, Mehserle and the officer's lawyer have all been silent about why Mehserle opened fire, but BART has said one possibility it is investigating is that Mehserle mistook his revolver for a Taser stun gun.
Mehserle was a BART police officer for two years. He and other BART officers were equipped with stun guns only within the past few weeks.
Grant's death has attracted attention well beyond the Bay Area. An official of the human rights group Amnesty International USA, Dalia Hashad, said today before Mehserle resigned that BART's delay in interviewing the officer "hints at the callousness to the worth of human life to a public that is all too familiar with racial profiling, police brutality and cover-ups."

Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/07/BA2N155BAH.DTL&type=printable

[Bia]

Wow, so quitting he doesnt have to talk to internal affairs.

I'm sure he will have to give some sort of an account....no?
I guess he has the right to remain silent.

:/

[AOCBravo2004]

Wait, so the think he pulled his sidearm thinking it was his taser? That's a hell of a mistake. I'm out of my lane on this, but don't some Depts require the taser on weakside for that reason? I'm only speaking of my University Department, but it does not seem like a bad idea, then again, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I carry my taser on my weakside, except I don't cross-draw, I don't like the cross-draw, never have, never will. I don't like giving up my gun hand. I don't like using my gun hand in case the situation changes quickly and I have to go lethal..... I can utilize the taser effectively, but quickly go to my gun as I can still keep my hand on the hood of my holster.

@HGRazorR, actually there are many types of cartridges for the X26 Taser, which is the main taser out there today. The actual cartridge is black, it's the "doors" on the cartridge that are different colors. There are silver, yellow, yellow/black stripes, green, etc. They are different, some are training rounds, some have longer wires, etc. From the side, if you have a black X26 you could mistake it for a firearm.

[Andrew116]

WTF!? I dont care how scare you are you dont shoot an unarmed man. This is bull****.... I hope these cops rot in prison. I have respect for law enforcement but thing needs to happen. Cops are getting to cocky about everything.

[Bia]

An update to the protest Wednesday in Oakland. At least 105 people were arrested demonstrating against the killing.

I saw some video... was absurd people attacking random civilian parked cars.

[Will Clark]

Well ****, that's what happens when the government allows police to ignore some basic firearm safety rules.

Also, I'm pretty sure the guy had a taser on his weak side.

[Ordie]

An update to the protest Wednesday in Oakland. At least 105 people were arrested demonstrating against the killing.

I saw some video... was absurd people attacking random civilian parked cars.

Yep...

I saw the damage this morning.

They hit my doughnut shop, my dry cleaners and the local medical marijuana clinic.

300 businesses in all. Many are mom and pop stores with little or no insurance to cover the damages.

Once again....the mayor is absent.

[Aerosoul]

All of the people trashing the city should be shot. Dead.
I'm not kidding. It's time those worthless f*cks find something better to do.

[Laworkerbee]

and the local medical marijuana clinic.

Damaged or looted?

[Ordie]

Damaged or looted?

Stoned......

[CMNot]

Based on the look of surprise of the officer firing, it does look like he thought he had his tazer.

Amateur hour at the metro station?

[Ordie]

Amateur hour at the metro station?

BART Cops are akin to suburban cops with little or no experience with urban street issues or interaction with the community at large.

It's a small force of 200 officers dispersed over an area of 400 square miles covering 4 counties.

[Laconian]

I'm not sure how the whole "I quit so I don't have to talk to IA about this thing," is going to unfold. He may still be forced to talk with the IA boys, because he was on the job and acting under authority during the incident.

From the video I've seen, he was either attempting to draw and use his taser (at which point he could have just drive stunned the guy for compliance, no need to stand up) or decided to hold him at gunppoint and had an ND/UD/AD, however you want to call it. But the video isn't clear and I can't see what they see and I don't know what they know about the facts of everything that occurred before the camera rolls.

The courts will decide based on the totality of the circumstances the officer(s) knew at the time force was used. 20/20 hindsight is not to be used. Remember, the rule is not that the officer has to be right, his actions have to be objectively reasonable. Many will conclude based on the video and some very sketchy reporting that his actions were unreasonable, but until all the facts are in the case is just conjecture on all our parts.

[Andrew116]

All of the people trashing the city should be shot. Dead.
I'm not kidding. It's time those worthless f*cks find something better to do.


THat would be pointless considering thats kinda what got us in to this mess.

[deagle]

A 16 year old kid in Detroit shot a 28 year old Cop in the head this week. Because the 16 year old kid didn't have a drivers license and got caught.

FVCK THAT GUY! Kill all these thugs, fvckin' scum.

yea, i agree, but in this case, the guy did already seemed restrained.