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Marmot1
01-06-2009, 04:53 PM
Mass grave found in Poland : 1800 skeletons recovered so far...

According to Polish media mass grave containing more than 1800 bodies was found in Malbork (northern Poland) during construction of new building. It contains remains of men, women and children, most of them probably German citizens killed during WWII in January 1945 when Red Army captured the city, some remains have bullet marks on them and according to local historian several of them have bullet marks betwen the eyes. Most of them probably died of famine, hunger and due to military actions, however some of them were killed execution style. All uneathen remains are collected and will be probably reburied with dignity in other place after investigation into finding will end. Grave contains probably remains collected through city and burried together after fighting ended on spring 1945.

Source in Polish
http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/1891889,11,item.html

timetraveller
01-06-2009, 05:02 PM
Rest In Peace .....

I feel the area should left and a Proper Memorial Eerected .. in memory of Those , Who's lives were Tragically taken ..

Switek
01-06-2009, 05:11 PM
...most of them probably German citizens killed during WWII in January 1945 when Red Army captured the city


some remains have bullet marks on them and according to local historian several of them have bullet marks between the eyes.


Most of them probably died of famine, hunger and due to military actions, however some of them were killed execution style.

With all respect to you Marmot1!. I've read article in Polish and quoted some of your thesis which are illogic. Those some executed remains could be victims of draconian laws of war zone and be executed by Germans themselves cuose of stealing food or defeatisms. This is me, Switek, a mp.net's Rusophobe on on duty, telling that.

Of course it dosen't exclude the fact that some buried corps belonged to perons killed by soviet troops but this article ststated that mos of them could die couse of natural reason: famine and illneses.

eATS
01-06-2009, 05:33 PM
i put it in a translator and it comes out like this...

here are skeletons of germans in time of world war ii in city most probably living. Part could perish (disappear) from they in time of battle led in city winter 1945. As it has informed Waldemar Zduniak, chief in (to) this case of regional prosecutor's office occupying (deal with) Malborku, it can be remains more, work last still ekshumacyjne. First bones on on square in (to) center Malborka, it meet in last october, if necessary practices of earth work structure of hotel previous < precede >. It mine remains for today 1800 persons near. Skeletons are among they women - equal, men, as well as children. Part bears trails after balls it has said - Zduniak.
Mine is stored from land of (earth of) bone in (to) place indicated < appointee >. - When it will end ekshumacja, fluent will observe it (them). Perhaps, then circumstances of deaths of these people learn imitate (manage) < thigh > it has informed - Zduniak. Employee of (staff of) locking museum has has remained in (to) Malborku and expert of history of city simultaneously Bernard Jesionowski, it judges, that found (been placed) bones can be remains of civil german inhabitants Malborka, late (deceased) which (who) or they have been killed on start 1945 year, in time of battle between russian troops but german. Indeed german command has ordered to leave already at the end 1944 year - population civil Malbork, however, group of person was big < dispute >, they have not listened which (who) this precept it has explained - adding Jesionowski, that several thousands civilians has has remained in (to) Malborku. earn fate from they - part < frequent > according to different sources from some hundreds for 1,5 thousand person -, it was unknown until now it has said - Jesionowski. According to Jesionowskiego, part could die of different result of kind of disease from these people, part can become (stay) killed. - Heavy winter, that reigned on turning-point (ravine) 1944 and could cause 1945 year, that inhabitants, in spite of on streets of battles carrying on, they left (go out) from hideaways, in order to earn fuel if (or) feed, and they disappeared from accidental balls it has said - Jesionowski. Employee of (staff of) museum has added at it, that at least it does not explain theory about death from stray balls some tens (any tens) persons zgonu, trails of shots bear which (who) skulls between eyes " ". It find balls at in these regions of skeletons - it it has added -. According to theory Jesionowskiego, collective could emerge near the end of winter mogiła or spring 1945 year, in time of ordering of city. I judge -, that bottom excavate, for which (who) from whole delay zwieziono Malborka employee of (staff of) locking museum has said -. Undecided remains problem, that with (from) for (after) becoming remains it ekshumowanymi, as operations of public prosecutors will end and fluent. As tuesday's journal has written " polish < poland > " possible, that foundation of memory will conceal remains, which (who) leads cemeteries in cooperation with german part in the area of poland, german citizens are sheltered on which (who).

SpecOpsGrandChild
01-06-2009, 08:24 PM
RIP to the people found in the mass grave.

Karaahmetoglu
01-06-2009, 10:12 PM
Rest In Peace

Jagr
01-06-2009, 11:17 PM
The Russians executed thousands of Poles.. wouldn't be shocked if it were related.

jaybe
01-07-2009, 12:39 AM
The Russians executed thousands of Poles.. wouldn't be shocked if it were related.

errgh... ever learned history? do a favor, read something about this land.

Itamajus
01-07-2009, 03:32 AM
errgh... ever learned history? do a favor, read something about this land.

Go trolling somethere else :bash:

RIP to the victims

jaybe
01-07-2009, 03:36 AM
Go trolling somethere else :bash:

RIP to the victims

keep you ignorance with you. i just asked him to read something not to "break wind"

Herman the II
01-08-2009, 03:11 PM
World War II Mass Grave Unearthed in Poland

The Polish city of Malbork has found a mass grave with the remains of some 1,800 people, thought to be former German residents of the town. They apparently died as the Red Army marched through Poland -- and some of them appear to have been executed.

This week, Piotr Szwedowski, a Malbork city official, revealed what they found. "Since then, we have exhumed around 1,800 corpses," he told the news agency AFP. "We are pretty sure that they were former residents of Malbork."


City officials are also pretty sure that they were victims of a massacre. Szwedowski said that one in 10 of the corpses had been shot in the head. All of them, furthermore, had been buried *****, "without shoes, without clothes, without personal items," he said. "The metal detectors used during the excavations found no metal, not even a false tooth."


full story:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,600216,00.html

muck
01-08-2009, 03:15 PM
Quite sad, and no word of sorrow from our own government at least.

Rest in Peace. :-(

errgh... ever learned history? do a favor, read something about this land.Maybe you should do yourself a favour and learn something about the history you wanna teach us? The Red Army has committed countless war crimes too.

LineDoggie
01-08-2009, 03:17 PM
full story:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,600216,00.html


Description deffo sounds like typical mass execution, by whom is the $64 question

Herman the II
01-08-2009, 03:37 PM
Description deffo sounds like typical mass execution, by whom is the $64 question


Those executed are most likely victims of the Red Army.
The other victims may have different reasons for their death, artillery shelling during the fighting and/or hunger and cold after the fighting.

LineDoggie
01-08-2009, 03:50 PM
What I dont get is how the authorities are able to determine the nationality of Victims buried without Clothes or Personal Papers? Considering the atrocities commited in East Prussia in 1945 I have little doubt who may be responsible if they are Germans in the ditch.

SkyUS
01-08-2009, 03:57 PM
What I dont get is how the authorities are able to determine the nationality of Victims buried without Clothes or Personal Papers? Considering the atrocities commited in East Prussia in 1945 I have little doubt who may be responsible if they are Germans in the ditch.


"Malbork is located in a region that only became part of Poland after World War II. Prior to that, the city was German and was called Marienburg. City officials presume that the remains are of former German citizens of the town, killed during the Russian advance in 1945."

Well so far the authorities presume their nationality.

Herman the II
01-08-2009, 04:00 PM
What nationality other than German is possible? I cant imagine that civilians of other nationalities were present in that area in such a high number. Especially if you consider this line:


Since the end of the war, 1,840 former residents of Marienburg (ger. for Malbork) were classified as missing.


Somehow fits the picture.

Umbro2914
01-08-2009, 04:30 PM
spoczywaj w pokoju

I'm sure countless graves of this type are still scattered throughout Europe.

muck
01-08-2009, 04:39 PM
spoczywaj w pokoju

I'm sure countless graves of this type are still scattered throughout Europe.Unfortunately this could be true.

Smok
01-21-2009, 05:28 PM
According to polih sources there will be more graves like this. Probably Gdansk and Gdynia has similar graves.
I feel sorry about these people. There were Germans - enemies, but there were humans too.
War sucks :/

Herman the II
02-02-2009, 01:15 PM
Apparently a new mass grave with (supposedly) German victims was found, this time in Lodz.



Polen: Jetzt auch ziviles Massengrab im Zentrum von Lodz?


http://www.news4press.com/Polen-Jetzt-auch-ziviles-Massengrab-im-_426273.html

Not much in the German media yet, maybe a Polish member has more...

Johnny_H02
02-02-2009, 01:20 PM
Rest In Peace to the victims, as for the "debate" this thread needs less speculation and more Loko's only he can save this discussion.

Switek
02-02-2009, 01:30 PM
Apparently a new mass grave with (supposedly) German victims was found, this time in Lodz.



http://www.news4press.com/Polen-Jetzt-auch-ziviles-Massengrab-im-_426273.html

Not much in the German media yet, maybe a Polish member has more...


Still nothing. Such places need time to confirm all aspects and possible scenarios. I guess that soonel or laters some news will be revealed.

F16
02-02-2009, 01:31 PM
RIP to them.

Herman the II
02-02-2009, 01:33 PM
never mind

Switek
02-02-2009, 01:45 PM
According to polih sources there will be more graves like this. Probably Gdansk and Gdynia has similar graves.
I feel sorry about these people. There were Germans - enemies, but there were humans too.
War sucks :/


During the first year of my studies in Poznań (Posen), twenty years ao I used to rent a room from an old woman near the strictly center of the town. It was ul. Małeckiego / Małecki Street . Not far main railway station. Unfortunately she had problems with health and her son who was looking after her visited us quite often.

He was about 55 or few yeras older and he used to tell me many stories from WW2 which he renumbered as teenage. The fact of inhuman attitude and murders German invaders against Poles was something obvious couse all our educational system was based on simple division we Poles and our Russian comrades were good Germans were bad.

But one story shocked me. He told me that during fighting about Poznań in February 1945, few hours after German forces were pushed away at railway station Russian troops started search through all buildings an apartment after apartment. All German speaking persons (mostly old, women and children) were taken at the yard and all were shoot death at yard gate.

I never forget the man's words. He pointed the gate we saw behind the window and said " all was red couse the blood of our neighbors lying down. You can not imagine how terrifying a red snow can be".

I have never shared this story with anyone, so far. Yes. There were many innocent German victims murdered by Soviet troops and Poles as well. There's no need to hide such stories anymore.

Herman the II
02-02-2009, 01:55 PM
Edit: I just saw that you edited your post

zg18
02-02-2009, 03:01 PM
I have never shared this story with anyone, so far. Yes. There were many innocent German victims murdered by Soviet troops and Poles as well. There's no need to hide such stories anymore.

Yes there is no need to hide such stories but....Easter Europeans do remember that Volksdeutschers behaved really bad towards their neighbours , my grandfather told me about the song of German soldiers from eastern front who returned home in villages of Syrmium province "Srbe na Vrbe-Hrvate za Karpate" , it's poetic but it means "hang the Serbs-expel Croats across Carpathian" , 1945 they were the ones expelled to Germany.

I'm personally really sorry about their destiny ,their contribution to our culture is enormous and their position in society was rather well , WTF happened to them in 1930's and 1940's ?!? They weren't treated bad in any sense.I still can't believe that ideology can simply destroy good relationship between peoples of Panonian plain enjoyed for 300 years in a matter of 4 years.

CPL Trevoga
02-02-2009, 09:37 PM
I looked up Soviet operations in Eastern Prussia 1945. Marienburg saw heavy fighting during Eastern Prussian Operation.

Just to give you an idea of intensity of the fighting take a look at this http://www.starymalbork.pl/zniszcz/festung/ramka3.html It's in Polish, but the pictures give you a good idea. Specially interesting are destroyed Soviet Shermans.

Fortress in Marienburg was heavyly defended by the Germans and was taken only two weeks after the capture of the city. City was virtually destroyed.

Graves found probably civilian casualties, due to heavy fighting. Accusations that Soviet troops executed old women and children on are just not true.

Herman the II
02-03-2009, 01:57 AM
How can you know? Its undoubted that a number of those civilians were directly executed...

Switek
02-03-2009, 03:34 AM
... Accusations that Soviet troops executed old women and children on are just not true.

Why not? The difference between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia is just a scale of murders. Germans did it as planned activity and acted mainly according to orders with a narrow margins of low level officers and NCO initiatives. Soviet troops did commit war crimes but usually it was their own initiative done under situational circumstances. Of course we can not forget about Soviet NKVD and Polish Security Office transition camps where Germans were kept and some of them murdered. But for keeping a real perspective we must remember that those victims can be count in thousands not milions like in case of Third Reich murder machine.

BTW. You probably are aware that the most cruel and accused for most crimes against POW's and civilians were Waffen SS units. But you probably do not know that the most bloody were Ukrainian, Cossacks' and Caucasian SS units.

There's about the time to forget about noble Wehrmacht or Red Army soldiers myths.

Toolhead
02-03-2009, 03:45 AM
Graves found probably civilian casualties, due to heavy fighting. Accusations that Soviet troops executed old women and children on are just not true.


ever heard od Sudeten Germans? I believe my Grandpa would, like to have a word wih you.......

Kilgor
02-03-2009, 03:56 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metgethen_massacre

Here is one case, there are many more.

But thats right , your ***** doesnt stink :roll:

Holycrusader
02-03-2009, 04:27 AM
What I dont get is how the authorities are able to determine the nationality of Victims buried without Clothes or Personal Papers? Considering the atrocities commited in East Prussia in 1945 I have little doubt who may be responsible if they are Germans in the ditch.

Germans are responsible? Or Poles? Or Russians? Or Jewish partizans?

WWII was a serious business. Nobody is clean in its aftermatch.
Only recently we get a knowledge about the afterwar activity of the Lambinowice concentration camp in Silesia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/1376828/Polish-man-accused-of-war-crimes-against-the-Germans.html

Not only Russians and Germans commit a crimes on current Polish territory :(

Telmar
02-03-2009, 04:30 AM
Germans are responsible? Or Poles? Or Russians? Or Jewish partizans?

WWII was a serious business. Nobody is clean in its aftermatch.
Only recently we get a knowledge about the afterwar activity of the Lambinowice concentration camp in Silesia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/1376828/Polish-man-accused-of-war-crimes-against-the-Germans.html

Not only Russians and Germans commit a crimes on current Polish territory :(

Are you serious?

Holycrusader
02-03-2009, 05:36 AM
Are you serious?

Read about Bielski partizans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans

Switek
02-03-2009, 05:37 AM
Are you serious?

Have you ever heard about crimes committed by Bielski brothers (Jews) partisan (rather bandit) unit?

http://wyborcza.pl/1,76842,6124559,Prawdziwa_historia_Bielskich.html

perdurabo
02-03-2009, 05:54 AM
or Koniuchy massacre...
noone was clean in that war, but it was soo long time ago.

Switek
02-03-2009, 06:07 AM
.... but it was soo long time ago.


In the terms of how much emotions it makes it wasn't so long.

Telmar
02-03-2009, 06:28 AM
@InetWarrior and Switek

Thanks for the info.

I had never heard about this before.

Holycrusader
02-03-2009, 06:50 AM
@InetWarrior and Switek

Thanks for the info.

I had never heard about this before.

No problem. WWII history have a lot of nasty suprises for us all...

Xaito
02-03-2009, 07:00 AM
the article said something about 1 in 10 was shot in the head - that's about 180 if the total of bodies is 1800 - most of whom believed to have died by famine and illness.
We don't know who the 180 people were and neither by whom and why they were shot.
That are the facts as far as I haven't missed anything.
Maybe we should stick to them for now and wait for more.

Switek
02-03-2009, 07:02 AM
No problem. WWII history have a lot of nasty suprises for us all...


especially when you found that the world (esp. during wars) just isn't black and white

Switek
02-03-2009, 07:05 AM
the article said something about 1 in 10 was shot in the head - that's about 180 if the total of bodies is 1800 - most of whom believed to have died by famine and illness.
We don't know who the 180 people were and neither by whom and why they were shot.
That are the facts as far as I haven't missed anything.
Maybe we should stick to them for now and wait for more.


We can not forget that the same sites, used previously by SS and Gestapo were later on used by soviet NKVD and its Polish counterpart.

Holycrusader
02-03-2009, 07:07 AM
We can not forget that the same sites, used previously by SS and Gestapo were later on used by soviet NKVD and its Polish counterpart.

Such massgraves can be german-polish-russian-??? co-production...

Xaito
02-03-2009, 07:13 AM
We can not forget that the same sites, used previously by SS and Gestapo were later on used by soviet NKVD and its Polish counterpart.

what exactly do you want to say with that and what relevance has it to this thread?

Switek
02-03-2009, 07:31 AM
Such massgraves can be german-polish-russian-??? co-production...


what exactly do you want to say with that and what relevance has it to this thread?

That the same places, police stations and some of camps used by German terror machine were later on used by Russo-Polish terror machine. I can believe that the same burial sites could be used as well. Perfect method to hide later murders evidences.

Asheren
02-03-2009, 07:38 AM
You might need to seek some less than popular books. Left in libraries to gather dust. Like memories of German civilians. Even after those books were propably edited by censorship you can see interesting stuff here and there.

I remember reading a book, memories of western agent in Germany. There was a scene where some soviet soliders from second wave tried to rape his wife. It all ended well officer came in and even wanted to execute those soliders on spot after he learned who he was. The revelance is how many times it did not ended that way.

How many times peoples took knowledge about such crimes to their graves because they didn't lived long enough. Long enough to be able to share their knowledge without risk to them or their familly.

TakeIt
02-03-2009, 07:41 AM
We can not forget that the same sites, used previously by SS and Gestapo were later on used by soviet NKVD and its Polish counterpart.Oh, of course, also do not forget schools, theatres, goverment buildings you're using now.


I can believe that the same burial sites could be used as well.Examples, please, with the intention of:

Perfect method to hide later murders evidences.

Switek
02-03-2009, 08:03 AM
Oh, of course, also do not forget schools, theatres, goverment buildings you're using now.

Examples, please, with the intention of:


There few in Poland but this one, from Eastern Germany seems quite appropriate. You all probably have heard about bad fame of Sachsenhausen concentration camp but only few are aware its history after the end of WW2.


The camp under the Soviets

In August 1945 the Soviet Special Camp No. 7 was moved to the area of the former concentration camp. Nazi functionaries were held in the camp, as were political prisoners and inmates sentenced by the Soviet Military Tribunal (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Soviet_Military_Tribunal&action=edit&redlink=1). By 1948, Sachsenhausen, now renamed "Special Camp No. 1", was the largest of three special camps in the Soviet Occupation Zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Occupation_Zone). The 60,000 people interned over five years included 6,000 German officers transferred from Western Allied camps. Others were Nazi functionaries, anti-Communists and Russians, including Nazi collaborators and soldiers who contracted ******** transmitted diseases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/********_transmitted_disease) in Germany.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsenhausen_concentration_camp#cite_note-horrors-1)
By the closing of the camp in the spring of 1950, at least 12,000 had died of malnutrition and disease.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsenhausen_concentration_camp#cite_note-4)


As I mentioned the difference lays in scale of committed murder. Germans did them very much more times up.

Mousepad
02-03-2009, 08:05 AM
Well if we want to continue diggin this mess and finger-point (i see a trend here) let's start from question "How the **** Soviet troops ended up in Germany?"

Anyway RIP to victims.

Asheren
02-03-2009, 08:13 AM
I am not finger pointing. I am just saying that belief that any side in this and pretty much any other war don't have "few" skeletons in basement is a wishfull thinking.

Xaito
02-03-2009, 08:14 AM
That the same places, police stations and some of camps used by German terror machine were later on used by Russo-Polish terror machine. I can believe that the same burial sites could be used as well. Perfect method to hide later murders evidences.
While it isn't surprising that the facilities of one secret police suit another for their work or that prisoner camps can be used for prisoners of any nationality - how does it fit in here?

I can also tell you some stories where something is used by another.
Like in my town there's a mansion - it's cellar rooms were used by Gestapo for holding and interrogation of prisoners - and today it's part of our university.
A local convent was used as field hospital and AA gun emplacement by the Wehrmacht - and is today a school (my former school).
So what?

I get the feeling you were trying to divert the discussion from the topic at hand to another "let's find something negative we can say about the red army" discussion.

Switek
02-03-2009, 08:17 AM
I get the feeling you were trying to divert the discussion from the topic at hand to another "let's find something negative we can say about the red army" discussion.

Wrong feelings but let's start living without denial.

Mousepad
02-03-2009, 08:18 AM
I am not finger pointing. I am just saying that belief that any side in this and pretty much any other war don't have "few" skeletons in basement is a wishfull thinking.

Sorr, i mistakenly pressed "quote" instead of "reply", it was "in general" post, no offence :)

Holycrusader
02-03-2009, 08:26 AM
Examples, please,

I already put one example here
Lambinowice concentration camp in Silesia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...e-Germans.html

Holycrusader
02-03-2009, 08:28 AM
I get the feeling you were trying to divert the discussion from the topic at hand to another "let's find something negative we can say about the red army" discussion.

Susumu, I think Switek do not deserve such sugestion. In this thread his posts are really balanced and he simply stated some facts...

I do not think that he have so lowly intentions as you suggest.

TakeIt
02-03-2009, 09:22 AM
There few in Poland but this one, from Eastern Germany seems quite appropriate. You all probably have heard about bad fame of Sachsenhausen concentration camp but only few are aware its history after the end of WW2. Why, those that wish are aware. Nevertheless,let me quote your words again: "I can believe that the same burial sites could be used as well. Perfect method to hide later murders evidences.". Please, provide examples, i'd like to know, where your beliefs are coming from.


As I mentioned the difference lays in scale of committed murder. Germans did them very much more times up. So, using this logic can i compare contemporary Poland to Germany? Or you give the subject a bit more thought?


I already put one example here
Lambinowice concentration camp in Silesia We are talking about using old facilities to hide later atrocities by blaming previous owners. Not just crimes or murders.

Switek
02-03-2009, 09:36 AM
"I can believe that the same burial sites could be used as well. Perfect method to hide later murders evidences.". Please, provide examples, i'd like to know, where your beliefs are coming from...

From some heard stories of people who lived this time. Sooner or later you'll get your evidences.

One theory of mass grave in Malbork says that the buried Germans could be killed by Nazis and soviets as well.

Just wait.


So, using this logic can i compare contemporary Poland to Germany? Or you give the subject a bit more thought?

Don't put your interpretations in my mouth. But seems that you are not aware what communist terror was in Poland just after WW2 and what was the reality of installation commie regime in our country.

perdurabo
02-03-2009, 09:43 AM
Well if we want to continue diggin this mess and finger-point (i see a trend here) let's start from question "How the **** Soviet troops ended up in Germany?"

Anyway RIP to victims.
we could go back to Ribentrop-Molotov pact too but this isn't on topic.
A for using former German concentration camps after war, Majdanek in Lublin is one of sutch places, one of the biggest Nazi death camp after war was used by NKVD and SB (polish counterpart) to imprison and kill AK and WiN soldiers and other anti socialist/comunist peaple, (i live in a flat build by those prisoners)

Holycrusader
02-03-2009, 09:46 AM
We are talking about using old facilities to hide later atrocities by blaming previous owners. Not just crimes or murders.

No, we are talking here about mass grave near facility used by various forces...

One Man Gang
02-03-2009, 10:14 AM
Just to stir things up, the fact the bodies were found ***** and with gold fillings ripped out sounds more like a Sonderkommando massacre of Jews. Or at least an attempt to disguise this as one of their ops.

Suffice to say though, that both the Germans and the Sovs were perfectly willing to engage in a bit of wanton butchery at the drop of a hat by late WWII. (Joch Peiper, call your office.) Drang Nach Osten was as nasty and brutal a death match as you'll find anywhere in military history. There is blood and blame and tragedy enough for all involved.

Itamajus
02-03-2009, 04:19 PM
Well if we want to continue diggin this mess and finger-point (i see a trend here) let's start from question "How the **** Soviet troops ended up in Germany?"

And why the **** did soviet troops end up in Poland in 1939?

Hast2
02-03-2009, 04:26 PM
And why the **** did soviet troops end up in Poland in 1939?

The same reason Poles ended up in Western Ukraine and Belarus in 1920, i guess.

Herman the II
02-03-2009, 04:33 PM
Just to stir things up, the fact the bodies were found ***** and with gold fillings ripped out sounds more like a Sonderkommando massacre of Jews. Or at least an attempt to disguise this as one of their ops.



A SS-Sonderkommando in Prussia? Tell me more...
Marienburg was a German city with German inhabitants, so a SS-Sonderkommando is kind of unlikely.

Mousepad
02-03-2009, 04:34 PM
And why the **** did soviet troops end up in Poland in 1939?

Why, because of "awesome" Versailes Treaty+Russian Revolution+Someone blocked (guess who) New (anti-Hitler) Antanta + Someone usually got F-ed in'da A-ss (as usual).. etc...etc...

Mousepad
02-03-2009, 04:38 PM
A SS-Sonderkommando in Prussia? Tell me more...
Königsberg was a German city with German inhabitants, so a SS-Sonderkommando is kind of unlikely.

Or, Youtube, for ya, German documentaries, which clearly state, that German natives could not leave the area (of sh/t hit the fan)?

Kilgor
02-03-2009, 05:12 PM
Well if we want to continue diggin this mess and finger-point (i see a trend here) let's start from question "How the **** Soviet troops ended up in Germany?"

Anyway RIP to victims.

There were also massacre's of Finnish civilians in the Winter war.

Don't use the line "German's started it so we can kill and violate with impunity" line...

TakeIt
02-03-2009, 05:49 PM
From some heard stories of people who lived this time. Sooner or later you'll get your evidences. Stories? No more questions then..


One theory of mass grave in Malbork says that the buried Germans could be killed by Nazis and soviets as well. Again, i patiently wait for the example of the graves used by several conflicting nations. Especially in relation to hiding anything.


Just wait.For what, more stories?


Don't put your interpretations in my mouth. Why not? Or haven't you said that difference is only in numbers? If you like to paint with a broad brush do not stand amazed if someone else does.


But seems that you are not aware what communist terror was in Poland just after WW2 and what was the reality of installation commie regime in our country.You had it coming since Pilsudski died. What's so strange about it?

CPL Trevoga
02-03-2009, 09:21 PM
Guys, let's not turn this into thread into "srach". I'm don't like propoganda *****, Soviet, German or Polish, I'm not here to whitewash *****. I just brought up some facts. If you got some facts, bring it to the discussion.

Soviet troops did not walk around murdering every German baby, otherwise there would be mass graves in every German town, nor was it a Soviet policy to do so and there isn't a single piece of paper authorizing civilian exterminations. Soviet security services kept good records.

On a personal note, I do believe that there were crimes committed by the individual soldiers or small groups, but some of you trying to equate Nazis to Soviet it's just plain ignorance of the subject or perhaps reading too many memoirs of bitter Nazi Generals.

Red Army in 1945 was a superior, disciplined fighting force that was fighting best war machine there was for there years. You going to tell me they suddenly they lost control and became an disorganized horde of murderers. I don't think so.

Hecatonchiros
02-04-2009, 02:48 AM
There were also massacre's of Finnish civilians in the Winter war.

In Winter War, not so much. Finnish civilians were relatively safe, aside from the occasional terror bombings, as the border areas had been evacuated.

During Continuation War, Soviet partisans crossed the lines several times, mostly in Northern Finland, and attacked defenseless villages, killing some 200 Finnish civilians.

TR1
02-04-2009, 02:56 AM
And why the **** did soviet troops end up in Poland in 1939?
and why the **** Polish troops end up in Czechoslovakia before the german and soviet invasions? lets not start stupidly pointing fingers.

TR1
02-04-2009, 02:58 AM
Guys, let's not turn this into thread into "srach". I'm don't like propoganda *****, Soviet, German or Polish, I'm not here to whitewash *****. I just brought up some facts. If you got some facts, bring it to the discussion.

Soviet troops did not walk around murdering every German baby, otherwise there would be mass graves in every German town, nor was it a Soviet policy to do so and there isn't a single piece of paper authorizing civilian exterminations. Soviet security services kept good records.

On a personal note, I do believe that there were crimes committed by the individual soldiers or small groups, but some of you trying to equate Nazis to Soviet it's just plain ignorance of the subject or perhaps reading too many memoirs of bitter Nazi Generals.

Red Army in 1945 was a superior, disciplined fighting force that was fighting best war machine there was for there years. You going to tell me they suddenly they lost control and became an disorganized horde of murderers. I don't think so.

Agreed. Frankly Red Army had no reason (unlike the underhuman myths the GErmans were fed) to exterminate say children. I would not be surprised if such cases happened (there are nasty people everywhere, and war is a good occasion to take out internal brutality/or someone feeling the right of vengeance after German persecutions in the east) but not on the scale claimed.

Herman the II
02-04-2009, 03:15 AM
Agreed. Frankly Red Army had no reason (unlike the underhuman myths the GErmans were fed) to exterminate say children. I would not be surprised if such cases happened (there are nasty people everywhere, and war is a good occasion to take out internal brutality/or someone feeling the right of vengeance after German persecutions in the east) but not on the scale claimed.


How can we know? I'm not saying that it was this way or that way, all I'm saying is that this chapter of WW2 was never properly documented and researched (for a number of reasons).
A motive for possible Red Army massacres? I would say revenge...
The SU and the new Russia never opened their archives for researches on this period and probably wont do so in the future. Until now Germany and Poland also weren't eager to bring some light into this period, it simply wasn't part of the zeitgeist.
Just recently and after a lot of difficulties a research center for that period was installed in Berlin in a German/Polish cooperation.
After the discovery of that mass grave in Marienburg they have found two more and there are already a number of hints from the population were other sides may be. I'm quite sure that we will hear a lot more about this in the future. Lets wait how the story develops, its way too early for any final conclusions on that period.

Switek
02-04-2009, 03:16 AM
Soviet troops did not walk around murdering every German baby, otherwise there would be mass graves in every German town, nor was it a Soviet policy to do so and there isn't a single piece of paper authorizing civilian exterminations. Soviet security services kept good records.

As some of us stated, German causalities can be counted in thousands.


On a personal note, I do believe that there were crimes committed by the individual soldiers or small groups, but some of you trying to equate Nazis to Soviet it's just plain ignorance of the subject or perhaps reading too many memoirs of bitter Nazi Generals.

No one is going to put equal mark between crimes done by Nazis and Red Army troops in WW2 an post war period. But do not deny it.


Red Army in 1945 was a superior, disciplined fighting force that was fighting best war machine there was for there years. You going to tell me they suddenly they lost control and became an disorganized horde of murderers. I don't think so.

Don't wanna argue about your idealization of the Red Army status in 1945 but come crimes were just possible and accepted by supreme command, whether they were disciplined or not.

The whole thing isn't about slander but understanding the fact that winners have no clean hands and some of their troops were no better than those their fighting against.

Switek
02-04-2009, 03:29 AM
double post

Asheren
02-04-2009, 06:51 AM
I would spoil that image a bit. Yes first line soviet troops were always mentioned as a very disciplined formations. "Second wave" not soo much.

perdurabo
02-04-2009, 07:07 AM
I would spoil that image a bit. Yes first line soviet troops were always mentioned as a very disciplined formations. "Second wave" not soo much.
shhhh saber you'll bring Russian forumers rage upon your head. I wonder why some nations have no problem in addmiting that their troops made war crimes and others allways deny?
2 years ago one of our parliment members said that our PM Tusk grandfather was in wermaht, one of magazines had series of articles about war memories of few Kaszub families from Pommern (our pm comes from Gdańsk and is Kaszeba) this nation realy have sad story, Germans where drafting them and altough they where german citizens they where second grade ones often acused of treason, Poles and Russians threated them as Germans and this terrain was first "native" german teritory that soviet troops entered with still fresh memories of german invasion...

Switek
02-04-2009, 07:30 AM
Damn! In my grammar (high) school in my class were dudes whose grandpas (or close relatives) served in:
1. Wehrmacht (forcible drafted Poles and pure Germans)
2. Ukrainian Uprising Army
3. Polish (People) Army (armed forces from the East)
4. Red Army
5. Home Army (and later on "Liberty and Sovereignty" - WiN)
6. Polish Armed Forces in the West
7. People Militia.

It's no joke.

Tyon
02-04-2009, 08:13 AM
Guys, let's not turn this into thread into "srach". I'm don't like propoganda *****, Soviet, German or Polish, I'm not here to whitewash *****. I just brought up some facts. If you got some facts, bring it to the discussion.

Soviet troops did not walk around murdering every German baby, otherwise there would be mass graves in every German town, nor was it a Soviet policy to do so and there isn't a single piece of paper authorizing civilian exterminations. Soviet security services kept good records.

On a personal note, I do believe that there were crimes committed by the individual soldiers or small groups, but some of you trying to equate Nazis to Soviet it's just plain ignorance of the subject or perhaps reading too many memoirs of bitter Nazi Generals.

Red Army in 1945 was a superior, disciplined fighting force that was fighting best war machine there was for there years. You going to tell me they suddenly they lost control and became an disorganized horde of murderers. I don't think so.

Thats some thin ice you are walking there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_atrocities#1945

Just 2 million perhaps more(even today few women talk about being raped) children and women repeatedly raped. Yeah who cares since the glorious red army was such a nice bunch of such nice people who saved europe from facism.
Who cares if they commited the biggest mass rape in the known history of mankind and cleansed the conquered areas from any german being.



all hail the red army...



@topic: hm why am i not surprised that its almost not being mentioned in german media?

Holycrusader
02-04-2009, 08:52 AM
Thats some thin ice you are walking there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_atrocities#1945

Just 2 million perhaps more(even today few women talk about being raped) children and women repeatedly raped. Yeah who cares since the glorious red army was such a nice bunch of such nice people who saved europe from facism.
Who cares if they commited the biggest mass rape in the known history of mankind and cleansed the conquered areas from any german being.




Poor nazi Germany?

Sorry but somehow I do not believe in all that talk about the "biggest mass rape in the known history of mankind".. Lots of woman ********** after and in time of WWII, just read veteran diaries. Sometimes they masked they prostitution as rapes. I do not say that they were no rapes (one of my family member was killed for hiding a woman's before soviet troops), but those rapes were simply a crimes. I read about concetrations lager prisoner who rapes german woman after they were freed. Such things happen but they were not make on order (like ie. Holocaust was)...

Sorry but nazi Germany is not a victim of WWII. Bombing of Dresden, refugees, rapes and territorial losses for Germany its all Hitler fault and people who support him

Herman the II
02-04-2009, 08:55 AM
@topic: hm why am i not surprised that its almost not being mentioned in german media?

Sure?
It was/is all over the news. All main TV news had it (heute, Tagesschau etc.) and DER SPIEGEL, FAZ etc..




Sorry but nazi Germany is not a victim of WWII. Bombing of Dresden, refugees, rapes and territorial losses for Germany its all Hitler fault and people who support him

Those executed civilians were victims, is not important whether they were German, Polish, French or Russian.
A crime is a crime and you don't justify one crime with another.

perdurabo
02-04-2009, 09:15 AM
Those executed civilians were victims, is not important whether they were German, Polish, French or Russian.
A crime is a crime and you don't justify one crime with another.
Germans and Soviets started this war it is truth but i agree with you that rape or execution of civilians of any nation by any side of the conflict was war crime. I realy wish that we took lesson from that time and europe now wil be free from confilcts like WWI or WWII.

Holycrusader
02-04-2009, 09:38 AM
Those executed civilians were victims, is not important whether they were German, Polish, French or Russian.
A crime is a crime and you don't justify one crime with another.

Do I? I only have a feeling that some people want to justify nazi orgenized crime's with others crimes. And this is dangerous...

zg18
02-04-2009, 10:30 AM
Thats some thin ice you are walking there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_atrocities#1945

Just 2 million perhaps more(even today few women talk about being raped) children and women repeatedly raped. Yeah who cares since the glorious red army was such a nice bunch of such nice people who saved europe from facism.
Who cares if they commited the biggest mass rape in the known history of mankind and cleansed the conquered areas from any german being.



all hail the red army...




Yes... the Soviets were planning to turn Germanic Untermensch in mindless drones in their Arian paradise , Germans only could learn to count to 500 ,write name and surname and tha's it , slave labour force to build Soviet Empire ohhh nooooo or it was other way around :roll:

what about millions Slavic womens raped by beloved Ubermensch in Eastern Europe, i unfortunately had an honor to read Heinrich Himmler plans for Slavic Untermensch ,i was utterly disgusted.

By this i'm not justifying Soviet crimes , it's just very dangerous equitation tendency in Europe Red Army=Whermacht & SS , Communism=Nazism in an attempt to be apologetic towards Nazism , Communism turn out bad but it can't be compared with ideology in which you're condemned to death because you were borned in different nationality ,relligion etc.

TakeIt
02-04-2009, 10:50 AM
Germans and Soviets started this war it is truth:cantbeli:

Mr.K
02-04-2009, 11:05 AM
Damn! In my grammar (high) school in my class were dudes whose grandpas (or close relatives) served in:
1. Wehrmacht (forcible drafted Poles and pure Germans)
2. Ukrainian Uprising Army
3. Polish (People) Army (armed forces from the East)
4. Red Army
5. Home Army (and later on "Liberty and Sovereignty" - WiN)
6. Polish Armed Forces in the West
7. People Militia.

It's no joke.

But internet was not invented p-)

Tyon
02-04-2009, 11:11 AM
Poor nazi Germany?

Yeah poor little evil nazi girls who got raped. Those evil girls deserved to be punished!
Let me guess the soviet troops did only rape members of the NSDAP and supporters of Hitler. Simple world is simple.




Sorry but somehow I do not believe in all that talk about the "biggest mass rape in the known history of mankind".. Lots of woman ********** after and in time of WWII, just read veteran diaries. Sometimes they masked they prostitution as rapes. I do not say that they were no rapes (one of my family member was killed for hiding a woman's before soviet troops), but those rapes were simply a crimes. I read about concetrations lager prisoner who rapes german woman after they were freed. Such things happen but they were not make on order (like ie. Holocaust was)...

Then why did british soldiers who were freed from concentrationcamps told about this mass rapes? I guess they were members of the NSDAP hiding inside the Royal Army.
Even many women and girls were raped in hungary or even polish women were raped.
Due to some evil nazi conspiracy many women in the "freed" zone of the soviets commited suicide after some days and weeks. If iam afraid of an enemy i kill myself before he is there. But when he is finally there and freed me why should i kill myself?
Yeah those massrapes were not an order but it took an order to stop them. Seems even Stalin was member of the NSDAP. This gets confusing...




Sorry but nazi Germany is not a victim of WWII. Bombing of Dresden, refugees, rapes and territorial losses for Germany its all Hitler fault and people who support him

Depends. If you are against something evil as the NSDAP and you declare yourself as the good side it destroys your ethic position if you commit such crimes. But hey the soviets were the good guys they freed germany from uhm i dont know. Thats perhaps the funny part about facism. If you are on the right team you cant be freed. Today i would say we were freed but not from the soviets. But the people back then probably didnt felt being freed. From what should they have been freed? An ideology that marked them as the best of the best? How can you be freed from something which is good for you?
The people in eastern germany were so much freed that they ended up in an dictatorship with the rest of eastern europe. Thanks soviets.




Do I? I only have a feeling that some people want to justify nazi orgenized crime's with others crimes. And this is dangerous...

Alarm into the trenches! Someone said bad things happened to german civilians at the end of WW2! He must be a nazi and trying to justify crimes done by germans!
Someone should end the job germany, nothing changed...!




:roll:

mack pl
02-04-2009, 11:13 AM
:cantbeli:

So, who started?

Xaito
02-04-2009, 11:16 AM
But internet was not invented p-)

it was actually.
you're thinking about the world wide web.


So, who started?
Germany

Adax
02-04-2009, 11:17 AM
So, who started?
Of course the Nazis!!1
And then, the great Soviets saved western parts of Belarus and Ukraine.

Thats what you are going to hear :roll::cantbeli:

Tyon
02-04-2009, 11:19 AM
Yes... the Soviets were planning to turn Germanic Untermensch in mindless drones in their Arian paradise , Germans only could learn to count to 500 ,write name and surname and tha's it , slave labour force to build Soviet Empire ohhh nooooo or it was other way around :roll:

Ah and because of that the soviets could do what they wanted to do?
So there would be no problem with lets say spanish or english people who do a suicide attack at some nice market in...pfff algier?

You misunderstood an eye for an eye. Its about reperation for a thing not a person. Perhaps the most misunderstood quote ever...




what about millions Slavic womens raped by beloved Ubermensch in Eastern Europe, i unfortunately had an honor to read Heinrich Himmler plans for Slavic Untermensch ,i was utterly disgusted.

Rape Himmler and the guys who raped the women? Ok wouldnt be so much fun but a payback.




By this i'm not justifying Soviet crimes , it's just very dangerous equitation tendency in Europe Red Army=Whermacht & SS , Communism=Nazism in an attempt to be apologetic towards Nazism , Communism turn out bad but it can't be compared with ideology in which you're condemned to death because you were born in different nationality ,relligion etc.

Turns out you had quite some problems in the sovietunion if you were a devot orthodox christian who wanted to go to church and live your life the christian way.

Tyon
02-04-2009, 11:22 AM
Sure?
It was/is all over the news. All main TV news had it (heute, Tagesschau etc.) and DER SPIEGEL, FAZ etc..

Hm ok iam a little obsessed with my studies but i think i didnt hear anything in the radionews or tv. And only found five articles on german news sites.

He219
02-04-2009, 11:30 AM
Germans and Soviets started this war it is truth but i agree with you that rape or execution of civilians of any nation by any side of the conflict was war crime. I realy wish that we took lesson from that time and europe now wil be free from confilcts like WWI or WWII.So, who started?
Germany
Fool, everybody knows it was triggered by Gravilo Princip and the downward spiral of unrepentant nationalism on all sides.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9492/principarrestedog8dotjpg

TakeIt
02-04-2009, 11:43 AM
Ah and because of that the soviets could do what they wanted to do?You know, without any political correctness personally i think that 20+ millions intentionally murdered people alone were enough of a reason to dismantle Germany as a country completely and scatter it's people across the world. The country, responcible for two world wars during relatively short historical period was a dangerous entity to exist, yet as you see, world leaders at the time were wise and coldheaded enough to create a system, where possibility of another german rise was halted without such drastic measures. So instead of blaming soviets you should be thankfull that despite all what was allegedly done by them they still granted you the right to stay german, a feat, that certainly wasn't planned for them by Nazi Germany.

Mr.K
02-04-2009, 11:44 AM
it was actually.
you're thinking about the world wide web.


Germany

I should have said intertubes and MP.net where armchair nationalist historians come out to play.

perdurabo
02-04-2009, 12:09 PM
Of course the Nazis!!1
And then, the great Soviets saved western parts of Belarus and Ukraine.

Thats what you are going to hear :roll::cantbeli:
LIES!
it was Poles first they entered to Tesin then they attacked Germany, Hitler had to defend himselfe and send army to Poland, there was sutch big chaos in Poland that Poles started to kill Jews, Balorusians and Ukrainians so Soviets had to enter to Poland to save tose poor victims, Poles after sutch a defeat commited mass suicides by shooting in back of their own heads in places like Katyn...duuh everyone knows that!

Xaito
02-04-2009, 12:10 PM
I should have said intertubes and MP.net where armchair nationalist historians come out to play.

yeah I got that - I was just being a smart ass ;)


Fool, everybody knows it was triggered by Gravilo Princip and the downward spiral of unrepentant nationalism on all sides.
I'm pretty sure WW2 was triggered by Germany - what you're talking about are some reasons/excuses for the political situation/background of that time.
Another thing everybody knows is that the winner writes history.

Herman the II
02-04-2009, 12:20 PM
Another thing everybody knows is that the winner writes history.

So don't you think that its time to bring some light into this chapter of WW2 (Prussia in 1945), for exactly that reason.
I'm quite sure that the Poles and Germans can work on that without this silly discussion that is going on here.

perdurabo
02-04-2009, 12:25 PM
yeah I got that - I was just being a smart ass ;)


I'm pretty sure WW2 was triggered by Germany - what you're talking about are some reasons/excuses for the political situation/background of that time.
Another thing everybody knows is that the winner writes history.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H27337%2C_Moskau%2C_Stalin_und_Ribbentrop_im_Kremldotjpg
maybe you forgot about small insignificant pact and later small backdoor invasion on Poland on 17th september 1939...

Tyon
02-04-2009, 12:49 PM
You know, without any political correctness personally i think that 20+ millions intentionally murdered people alone were enough of a reason to dismantle Germany as a country completely and scatter it's people across the world. The country, responcible for two world wars during relatively short historical period was a dangerous entity to exist, yet as you see, world leaders at the time were wise and coldheaded enough to create a system, where possibility of another german rise was halted without such drastic measures. So instead of blaming soviets you should be thankfull that despite all what was allegedly done by them they still granted you the right to stay german, a feat, that certainly wasn't planned for them by Nazi Germany.

Two world wars? Ah the treaty of versailles...
Are there still people who think germany and austria were the only countries that wanted the war? And I'll never thank the soviets for what they have done. Neither should the polish, hungarian, romanian, ukranian or the baltic people. Oh wait they dont because they got oppressed for half a century.


Ah the propaganda of 1914 is still working. The evil germans are coming and the nice british and french were absolutely war ready as were russia, austria or germany. What a coincidence isnt it?

Xaito
02-04-2009, 01:06 PM
maybe you forgot about small insignificant pact and later small backdoor invasion on Poland on 17th september 1939...
Maybe you're overrating it's significance... or of Poland in relevance to WW2.
Unless your really want to claim the "pact" was worth more then the paper it was written on it and was not just stalling, playing for time while negotiating, or that Poland is all it was about in the WW2 - I think you're forgetting some other fronts Germany fought on which had little to do with the Soviet Union.


So don't you think that its time to bring some light into this chapter of WW2 (Prussia in 1945), for exactly that reason.
I'm quite sure that the Poles and Germans can work on that without this silly discussion that is going on here.
No I don't think it's time to bring some new light into this chapter after most people who had something to contribute are already dead.
I'm afraid the Result - especially considering which nations will do the revisions and for what interests/motivations - might end up further away from the truth.
I don't think that Germans and Poles are the right ones to do it - at least not without Russians.
We've even got problems today classifying recent wars and actions - like Georgian war - one say Russians with peacekeeping mandate defend people from attack, others say communist horde is out to destroy democracy. :roll:

Herman the II
02-04-2009, 01:22 PM
No I don't think it's time to bring some new light into this chapter after most people who had something to contribute are already dead.


Seeing that all of the newly found mass graves were unknown until now I think there wasn't much research on that aspect of the war.



I'm afraid the Result - especially considering which nations will do the revisions and for what interests/motivations - might end up further away from the truth.


What are you trying to say? That historians may alter the happenings?
What do you think is the German or Polish interest behind the latest findings?



I don't think that Germans and Poles are the right ones to do it - at least not without Russians.


I'm sure that a Russian cooperation will be more than welcomed, however a invention from the newly found research center got a frosty reaction.
The Russians are not willing to grant access to the archives as they are still "secret".
The same reaction was found during the Katyn investigations.


Russia rejects probe into Katyn massacre
1/30/2009 Source ::: AFP

link (http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=United+Kingdom+%26+Europe&month=January2009&file=World_News2009013083719.xml)


We've even got problems today classifying recent wars and actions - like Georgian war - one say Russians with peacekeeping mandate defend people from attack, others say communist horde is out to destroy democracy.

Who in the German government or even in the main stream media said anything about communists or something along the lines you mentioned.

perdurabo
02-04-2009, 01:37 PM
Maybe you're overrating it's significance... or of Poland in relevance to WW2.
Unless your really want to claim the "pact" was worth more then the paper it was written on it and was not just stalling, playing for time while negotiating, or that Poland is all it was about in the WW2 - I think you're forgetting some other fronts Germany fought on which had little to do with the Soviet Union.



dude sorry you are wrong
1.Ribentrop-Molotov happened months before war has started and it was about partition of Poland.
2. Germany starts a war
3. Russia enters Poland
4. Poland looses totally
WW2 has started hmm...
Poland would hold atleast month or two longer but fighting on two fronts with two large armies isn't possible, German resources at end of september would last only for next two or three weeks, also other thing is if not Frenchies standing behind maginot line this war would end in one month.

Xaito
02-04-2009, 01:45 PM
Seeing that all of the newly found mass graves were unknown until now I think there wasn't much research on that aspect of the war.
What aspect exactly are we talking about here?


What are you trying to say? That historians may alter the happenings?
What do you think is the German or Polish interest behind the latest findings?

I'm less worried about them alter anything then interpret them with a motivation
behind it.
The finding was by chance as far as I see it - the interpretation of it might turn out to be motivated.


Who in the German government or even in the main stream media said anything about communists or something along the lines you mentioned.
Germany was in general more factual then some others - I'm talking about Western response in general - like Rice comparing the situation to Czechoslovakia :roll:

Herman the II
02-04-2009, 02:00 PM
What aspect exactly are we talking about here?


The fate of the civilian inhabitants of east Prussia. The population was almost completely replaced within a very short period. There are a lot of unknown fates within that event.




I'm less worried about them alter anything then interpret them with a motivation behind it.
The finding was by chance as far as I see it - the interpretation of it might turn out to be motivated.


There will be a investigations on the "Marienburg" case and also for other graves that might be found in the future. German and Polish authorities are working on it, there is no place for a motivated interpretation in a criminal case.
I wage to claim that the German Staatsanwaltschaft and their Polish counterpart aren't politically motivated in any way. The same goes for the new research center in Berlin, its a state owned institution. I believe thier work will be based on facts.




Germany was in general more factual then some others - I'm talking about Western response in general - like Rice comparing the situation to Czechoslovakia :roll:

Lets hope that Rice wont get involved with the research, should be quite unlikely. I'm quite sure that modern German historians will have a neutral view on the matter. You don't?

jaybe
02-04-2009, 02:42 PM
The fate of the civilian inhabitants of east Prussia. The population was almost completely replaced within a very short period. There are a lot of unknown fates within that event.

there would be more unknown fates if this population was not replaced.

Indiana Jones
02-04-2009, 03:37 PM
[...]

I'm less worried about them alter anything then interpret them with a motivation
behind it.
The finding was by chance as far as I see it - the interpretation of it might turn out to be motivated.


[...}
No I don't think it's time to bring some new light into this chapter after most people who had something to contribute are already dead.
I'm afraid the Result - especially considering which nations will do the revisions and for what interests/motivations - might end up further away from the truth.
Guten Tag,
Ihr Vertrauen in die historische Profession rührt mich ehrlich zu Tränen. ;)
Ich denke es bedarf keinerlei kognitiver Höchstleistungen um zu erkennen, daß historische Interpretationen selten frei von Hintergedanken oder inhärenten Motivationen sind, aber das sollte Sie nicht dazu verleiten zu glauben, daß die polnischen und deutschen Kollegen ihre wissenschaftliche Sorgfaltspflicht verletzen werden. Im gleichen Maße konstituiert dies keinen relevanten Einwand gegen die Forschung per se. Ich möchte nicht unhöflich erscheinen, aber ihr Argument erscheint doch bestenfalls als gegenstandslos.

I don't think that Germans and Poles are the right ones to do it - at least not without Russians.
As has been said before, I doubt anybody will raise any objections against an eventual Russian participation. Mind you, the biggest current obstacle to contemporary Eastern European historiography, and to a lesser degree, Slavistics, are the restrictive archival policies of the Russian Federation.


if this population was not replaced
Quite the euphemism, don't you think?

Cheers,
IJ.

Flamming_Python
02-04-2009, 03:56 PM
Turns out you had quite some problems in the sovietunion if you were a devot orthodox christian who wanted to go to church and live your life the christian way.

And therein lies the fault in your logic. Being devout is a choice, it's not the same as being born into a different race or people and then being executed for it, unable to change your fate no matter what you think, what you do, or how you live your life.

And even in Stalins time, religion may have been suppressed, but you weren't executed simply for being religious, as long as you kept in line and didn't speak up you'll have gotten away with it. There were still Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, there were of course few and you were discouraged from going, but you weren't killed for it.

Flamming_Python
02-04-2009, 04:05 PM
Two world wars? Ah the treaty of versailles...
Are there still people who think germany and austria were the only countries that wanted the war? And I'll never thank the soviets for what they have done. Neither should the polish, hungarian, romanian, ukranian or the baltic people. Oh wait they dont because they got oppressed for half a century.


Ah the propaganda of 1914 is still working. The evil germans are coming and the nice british and french were absolutely war ready as were russia, austria or germany. What a coincidence isnt it?

The Polish annexed Western Belorussia & Ukraine, as well as a part of Czechoslovakia, so they were far from innocent. However compared to Germany, USSR & fascist regimes of Eastern Europe they were pretty moderate, and got screwed pretty badly.

The Hungarians and Romanians, well what can I say, they invaded the USSR, what did they expect? They were fascist regimes in their own right and whatever came after was better than what they had before in any case.

The Ukrainians were a part of the USSR, and it makes no sense to include them without also including Russians, Tadjiks, Armenians, etc... as these peoples suffered no less then them. And by the way, Ukrainians regret the collapse of the USSR no less than Russians.

The Baltics are the only ones who truely got screwed without any provocation on their part.

Indiana Jones
02-04-2009, 04:06 PM
And therein lies the fault in your logic. Being devout is a choice, it's not the same as being born into a different race or people and then being executed for it, unable to change your fate no matter what you think, what you do, or how you live your life.
[...]
Hello,
Not to get into the whole argument of "equation", but by the same token, being born into a "class" was patently not a matter of choice either. As you certainly know, having the "wrong" background, or what Figes called a "damaged biography", was a major stigma that typically entailed severe and often lifelong discrimination in the Soviet Union.
In addition, the Soviet Union did repeatedly conduct campaigns against certain ethnicities as well, notably but not exclusively ie. the Chechens and Ingushs, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. The Soviet Union was never shy of tapping into nationalism and xenophobic resentment when it became opportune.

Cheers,
IJ.

Flamming_Python
02-04-2009, 04:18 PM
dude sorry you are wrong
1.Ribentrop-Molotov happened months before war has started and it was about partition of Poland.
2. Germany starts a war
3. Russia enters Poland
4. Poland looses totally
WW2 has started hmm...
Poland would hold atleast month or two longer but fighting on two fronts with two large armies isn't possible, German resources at end of september would last only for next two or three weeks, also other thing is if not Frenchies standing behind maginot line this war would end in one month.

Wrong order, correct one is:

1.Ribentrop-Molotov happened months before war has started and it was about partition of Poland.
2. Germany starts a war
3. Poland looses totally
4. Russia enters Poland
5. Poland looses totally ;)

The USSR didn't enter Poland until the Polish Army was effectively routed, divided and most importantly encircled (which created huge difficulties for its continued effectiveness), the government had collapsed and the country was already defeated. Now don't get me wrong, the USSR and Germany planned this course of events well in advance, so both share the responsibility for it, and of course like with the Russians and other peoples, plenty of Poles were deported by Stalin; the intelligencia was purged, etc...

However to think that Poland could have successfully resisted the German forces had the USSR not invaded from the other side is not supported by any facts. The USSR invasion may have provided the final blow to Polish morale, but it was effectively just a kick on the ribs to a person already lying semi-conscious on the ground; Poland's fate was sealed before the USSR invaded.

It was a crime no doubt, but I think the outcome of Poland divided between Germany and the USSR, is better than the outcome of Germany completely occupying Poland. Not only because there were less deaths in Soviet-occupied Poland, but also because the extra buffer space gave the USSR extra breathing room, perhaps just enough to prevent a German attack on Moscow, thus helping the USSR win the war and ultimately save the Polish from complete extermination and enslavement

TakeIt
02-04-2009, 04:23 PM
dude sorry you are wrongIt seems not only him.


1.Ribentrop-Molotov happened months before war has started and it was about partition of Poland. The Pact itself was _not_ about partition of Poland, it was a fairly common non-aggresion agreement. Also, addendums to Pact were about spheres of interest, and not exclusively about partition(which wasn't even mentioned) of Poland, which was mentioned in part 2. I advise you to read the full text again.

Also it should be noted, that M-R Pact was signed 23 august 1939, after long and unsuccessfull streak(started in 10 april) of attempts to negotiate several agreements between SU and France/GB, and German invasion started 1 september 1939, thus showing another of your mistakes. Additionaly a war or at least an armed clash between Poland and Germany became inevitable to the most oblivious politicians of the time when Hitler openly denunciate German-Polish Non-aggression pact from 1934 during his speech at Reichstag at 28 april 1939. Before that, at 11 april he approved plan "Weiss", basically he approved armed invasion into Poland. That's basics.


3. Russia enters Poland 4. Poland looses totally Parts 3 and 4 should be switched. Russia entered poland at 17 september, yet polish goverment and high command already ordered general retreat on 10 september and started moving towards romanian border and on 14 september started negotiations with Romania about its escape. So basically collapse of Poland started earlier, the rest was just an agony.


Poland would hold atleast month or two longerThat's a wishfull thinking.


also other thing is if not Frenchies standing behind maginot line this war would end in one month.Actually it's rather not right to blame French, they did at least something, yet they realised that polish case is a lost one after two weeks of german offensive.

JCR
02-04-2009, 04:31 PM
C'mon everybody blames the french....
rofl

Flamming_Python
02-04-2009, 05:00 PM
Hello,
Not to get into the whole argument of "equation", but by the same token, being born into a "class" was patently not a matter of choice either. As you certainly know, having the "wrong" background, or what Figes called a "damaged biography", was a major stigma that typically entailed severe and often lifelong discrimination in the Soviet Union.

You're right of course, in pointing out that being born into the 'wrong class' is not a matter of choice either. However, you are wrong in assuming that a person born into an upper-class didn't have a choice in Stalin's USSR. They in fact did have a choice no matter what social-economic strata of the former Russian Imperial society they came from (unless of course they participated in the White movement during the Civil War); namely to join the communist party and/or give up their wealth volunterily and get with the program and abstain from challenging socialist rule. The idea was to destroy classes as a structure of society, not to simply kill off everyone from a certain class.

AFAIK, there were in fact a number of high-ranking Soviet officials, beurocrats and officers who were origionally from the aristocracy, but sided with the Reds in the Civil War (or else kept out of it and pledged allegiance to the new regime once it was established). i don't know how many of them fell under Stalin's purges, but not much more I would think than the number of his rivals and enemies that he purged from other class backgrounds.


In addition, the Soviet Union did repeatedly conduct campaigns against certain ethnicities as well, notably but not exclusively ie. the Chechens and Ingushs, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.Again you're right certain ethnicities were deported en-mass before, during and in the aftermath of WW2. Not only the Chechens and Ingush, but also Koreans, Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, Meskhetian Turks, Balkars, Kalmyk Mongols and Karachays. Not only that, but also particular areas were cleared of a great number of people no matter what their ethnicity; or else a disproportionate number (although far from all) of a certain people were deported or prosecuted; a process through which many Poles, Balts, etc... had go through (with the Russians, Ukrainians, etc... having gone through their share in the 20's and 30's). There were a variety of reasons, from needing to clean areas of people due to security concerns, to punishment for collaboration with Germans (even if far from all members of a certain people in fact collaborated), to such ridiculous reasons as the fear of infiltration by Japanese spies (which was the reason the Koreans were deported from the Russian Far East). This is not to mention the post-war expulsion of Germans from areas that would become or were parts of Poland, Czechoslovakia and the USSR by the governments of these countries.

This IMHO is the most shameful aspect of Stalin's USSR and one that Krushchev wasted no time in reversing, not least because it clearly betrayed the socialist principles that the USSR was supposed to uphold in favour of traditional interests of nations states such as that of security, and in some cases no more than paranoia or over-reaction. And of course, because of the attrition rate amongst the deported, you could say that a good number of people did in fact die because of the race/people they were born into.

Again though, there is a however. This was undoubtebly ethnic cleansing, but it was not extermination, it was population transferal, and there was no desire to commit genocide against these people or kill anyone because of their race. Stalin desired to populate many areas of Central Asia and Sibera both for Industrial purposes and for fear that leaving the peoples in their traditional locations would mean that the enemy could build alliances with them. Many of course died during the transfers, a considerable proportion actually, but that was not so much due to intention as apathy towards human life in general, the same reason so many were killed by Stalin's regime no matter what the ethnicity. And of course, the same reason applies to Stalin's decision to finance Soviet industrialisation by collectivising & selling a great amount of wheat and food produce, causing a great amount of deaths among the rural populations of Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan in an event the Ukrainians call the 'Holodomor'. It's not that Stalin wanted to take food from peoples mouths, it's just that he viewed it as a neccessery sacrifice for modernising Soviet industry. Just the same, it's not that he caused so many deaths among the Ukranians, Russians and Kazakhs because of their ethnicity, but because they lived in the areas with the highest productions of wheat and farming produce in the USSR.


The Soviet Union was never shy of tapping into nationalism and xenophobic resentment when it became opportune.Well actually they were very shy about it. AFAIK during Stalin's time the only people nationalism and xenophobic resentment were targetted against were the Germans during WW2. And it was done for the same reason that Stalin relaxed his restrictions on the Russian Orthodox Church during WW2; namely out of pragmatism and a desire to gain an advantage in the war.

Kilgor
02-04-2009, 05:13 PM
, Communism turn out bad but it can't be compared with ideology in which you're condemned to death because you were borned in different nationality ,relligion etc.

Innocent people were sent do death in your communist paradise for equally stupid reasons.

Kilgor
02-04-2009, 05:14 PM
And even in Stalins time, religion may have been suppressed, but you weren't executed simply for being religious, as long as you kept in line and didn't speak up you'll have gotten away with it. There were still Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, there were of course few and you were discouraged from going, but you weren't killed for it.

Priests were shot, or sent to the gulag. Churches were demolished.

It was only during the GPW was this policy reversed.

jaybe
02-04-2009, 05:16 PM
Innocent people were sent do death in your communist paradise for equally stupid reasons.


stupid - yes, maybe, but nobody was killed for being Jew, Gipsy or German

Kilgor
02-04-2009, 05:18 PM
stupid - yes, maybe, but nobody was killed for being Jew, Gipsy or German

And being killed for having too many cows is even more rational ?

TakeIt
02-04-2009, 05:22 PM
And being killed for having too many cows is even more rational ?

Care to provide at least some source for this interesting note? But please - no vocal tales from distant past.

jaybe
02-04-2009, 05:23 PM
And being killed for having too many cows is even more rational ?

having too many cows is not nationality, and killing for it is crime but not genocide
and, be sure, nobody was killed for having too many cows - death penalties were for active antistate activity, being a "kulak" was punished by resettlement with minor property, but lot of people collaborated and survived without any consequenses

Flamming_Python
02-04-2009, 05:28 PM
Priests were shot, or sent to the gulag. Churches were demolished.

It was only during the GPW was this policy reversed.

Yes classes were also targetted in the USSR, and certain ones like Clergy and Kulaks suffered a lot. However I was talking about ordinary religious people. Besides that, the Bolsheviks never abolished the Russian Orthodox Church, they took control of it and re-introduced the Patriarchate system (and they chose of course who became one), downsized and restrained it, and later inflitrated it. Many priests who were suspected of spreading or advocating anti-Soviet views were shot or sent to the gulag as you say, however equally many survived. Again, mostly it was a matter of either sitting quiet and following the party line or speaking up and taking the risks that go with it.

TR1
02-04-2009, 06:08 PM
I do love Polish fantasies of the war turning out different had the SU not invaded Poland. It also would have been diffirent if Poland actually took part in Soviet Attempts to make an anti-German block with the western allies (before the Ribentrop pact).

Asheren
02-04-2009, 06:23 PM
stupid - yes, maybe, but nobody was killed for being Jew, Gipsy or German

Soviet Russia science a that time was under influence of Lysenko. His theories were against Mendelian genetics. Automaticaly it lead to rejection of eugenics theories. Soviets had no scientific base to create any master race theories.
A contry that was closest in that period to establish a "racial hygene" was USA, fortunatly they decided against it due to moral reasons. After war when holocaust became undeniable fact eugenics movment already in decline fell apart completly.

johanness
02-04-2009, 06:50 PM
As some of us stated, German causalities can be counted in thousends

Maybe you would like to check your sources again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

German civilian deaths due to the expulsion of Germans after World War II are not included with World War Two Casualties. A 1958 West German government study estimated 2.3 million civilians perished during the post war expulsions.

Indiana Jones
02-04-2009, 06:50 PM
Evening,

You're right of course, in pointing out that being born into the 'wrong class' is not a matter of choice either. However, you are wrong in assuming that a person born into an upper-class didn't have a choice in Stalin's USSR.

I am not quite sure as to whether I assumed that in the first place. ;)
However, I am not certain as whether your argument is pertinent. Actively siding with the Bolshevik regime was by no means a failsafe for not being victimized by it; the Soviet regime never refrained from "eating its children", and put many of its most loyal adherents to death. The cases of judicial murder against people of ie. "Kulak" provenience are legion, regardless of their political affiliation, and most remained ever fearful of revealing their "contaminated" background on account of the often severe and open discrimination they endured.

Again you're right certain ethnicities were deported en-mass before, during and in the aftermath of WW2. Not only the Chechens and Ingush, but also Koreans, Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, Meskhetian Turks, Balkars, Kalmyk Mongols and Karachays.[...] Just the same, it's not that he caused so many deaths among the Ukranians, Russians and Kazakhs because of their ethnicity, but because they lived in the areas with the highest productions of wheat and farming produce in the USSR.

I am aware of that and by and large in agreement with your observations. However, perhaps you should read up on we know of Stalins statements concerning Poles and Ukrainians, which indicate that in spite of the internationalist partyline, certain resentments may have shaped Stalinist policies leading ie. to the Holodomor. In contemporary research, Stalin is to the extent of my knowledge commonly believed to have adopted ****ounced patterns of Russian nationalism even before the war.

Well actually they were very shy about it. AFAIK during Stalin's time the only people nationalism and xenophobic resentment were targetted against were the Germans during WW2.
Actually, Stalin had a press campaign against the Jews orchestrated, which was ever so thinly veiled under the disguise of the "rootless cosmopolitans". Its subtext was never particularly ambiguous however, and it left little to be desired in terms of explicity during its later stages immediately preceding Stalins death. Without getting bogged down too deep in rabulistics, this seems indeed to indicate a willingness to deviate from the internationalist paradigm when it became opportune, which however was seldom the case, seeing as the Soviet Union was an immensely ethnically diverse state.

Cheers,
IJ.

exodus999
02-04-2009, 07:13 PM
I do love Polish fantasies of the war turning out different had the SU not invaded Poland. It also would have been diffirent if Poland actually took part in Soviet Attempts to make an anti-German block with the western allies (before the Ribentrop pact).

fist question that should be rised is whether Hitler would decide to start military operation against Poland ( consequently war in Europe ) in 39 if he was not ashured by Soviet Union help?

second - poles as far as I remeber had up to 700 000 soldiers fighting when Soviet Union entered practically forcing them to surrender - you can always argue but what is shure is that longer this campaign would take harder for germans it would get

thirdly - speaking of fantasies - i also do love Russian fantasies on how every war waged in last 100 years by russia/SU was "liberation", or "justified defence" , every regime crime aginst humanity ( even on own citizens !) was "resonable", and NKVD/ Red Army war crimes were "ethically correct " :) sincerly - you guys belive in all that, or you just write it all over the internet to feel better?woot ( i hope is the second option :) )

TR1
02-04-2009, 07:18 PM
fist question that should be rised is whether Hitler would decide to start military operation against Poland ( consequently war in Europe ) in 39 if he was not ashured by Soviet Union help?

lol. YOu really think Hitler would not have done the same with Poland (and beaten them just as thoroughly) had the Soviet Union not promised help? Sure, had the western allies and Poland taken the SUs attempts at an anti-German pact seriously, and perhaps created a united front against Hitler's agression, maybe....but by 1939 the SU, even if it hadn't helped, would certainly not gone against Germany ovr Poland.

second - poles as far as I remeber had up to 700 000 soldiers fighting when Soviet Union entered practically forcing them to surrender - you can always argue but what is shure is that longer this campaign would take harder for germans it would get

Harder, yes, but by how much?

thirdly - speaking of fantasies - i also do love Russian fantasies on how every war waged in last 100 years by russia/SU was "liberation", or "justified defence" , every regime crime aginst humanity ( even on own citizens !) was "resonable", and NKVD/ Red Army war crimes were "ethically correct " :) sincerly - you guys belive in all that, or you just write it all over the internet to feel better?woot ( i hope is the second option :)
)
I'd love for you to provide some quotes of me saying that "every war waged in the last 100 years by russia/Su was liberation". :)


.................................

Kilgor
02-04-2009, 07:22 PM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/322828458_bd4efa0ba1dotjpg?v=0

"I'd love for you to provide some quotes of me saying that "every war waged in the last 100 years by russia/Su was liberation".

Im really glad the soviet union had the heart to liberate the poor workers of Poland.

TakeIt
02-04-2009, 07:33 PM
fist question that should be rised is whether Hitler would decide to start military operation against Poland ( consequently war in Europe ) in 39 if he was not ashured by Soviet Union help? You're asking the wrong question, obviously due to the lack of knowledge. The question is - would Hitler started war against Poland if he knew that GB and France really follow their obligations to the last? Or another hypothetical situation - if SU, France and GB formed a defence pact, a thing SU desperatedly trying to create since events with Austria. Or even fantasy situation - Poland abandons her ambitions to became a "superpower" and work against Germany along SU, France and GB?

Kilgor, your trolling becoming rather annoying..

TR1
02-04-2009, 07:33 PM
"I'd love for you to provide some quotes of me saying that "every war waged in the last 100 years by russia/Su was liberation".

Im really glad the soviet union had the heart to liberate the poor workers of Poland.

So ugh....Kilgor....where am I saying that again?

Kilgor
02-04-2009, 07:39 PM
So ugh....Kilgor....where am I saying that again?

The poster is a good example... wouldn't you agree ?

Man love liberation.

CPL Trevoga
02-04-2009, 09:09 PM
Thats some thin ice you are walking there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_atrocities#1945

Just 2 million perhaps more(even today few women talk about being raped) children and women repeatedly raped. Yeah who cares since the glorious red army was such a nice bunch of such nice people who saved europe from facism.
Who cares if they commited the biggest mass rape in the known history of mankind and cleansed the conquered areas from any german being.

all hail the red army...
@topic: hm why am i not surprised that its almost not being mentioned in german media?

Why not 5 million rapes? Who comes up with this number? We're not even talking about that, let's not loose focus here.

What's with heil to the Red army? I think the idea I was trying to convey was lost in the translation. Just to clarify, if Red Army commited atrocities on German terriories, it was only because of orders from the top leadership and if it is true, there must be documents, orders, basically some kind of evidence existing in the ex-Soviet archives.

Indiana Jones
02-04-2009, 09:33 PM
Why not 5 million rapes? Who comes up with this number? We're not even talking about that, let's not loose focus here.

I think I provided a number of links detailing the genesis of that figure in another thread. It is indeed an estimate, based on the numbers of abortions and other "ramifications" of rape in Greater Berlin, extrapolated on the Rest of the former Ostgebiete and what was later to become Eastern Germany. It is methodologically for various reasons inherently very conservative, and it does neither account for Soviet rapes outside the territory of the third empire nor does it include multiple rapes.
Look it up, if you are actually interested in finding out about the matter that is. There is of course a lot more literature to find in your local university library, not even to speak of the literally tons of German files on the matter, of both Eastern (SAPMO) and Western (BA) provenience.

If you want to approach the matter from the side of oral history, you might want to ask the resident German members. I am certain some are going to have family from the former Ostgebiete.


What's with heil to the Red army? I think the idea I was trying to convey was lost in the translation. Just to clarify, if Red Army commited atrocities on German terriories, it was only because of orders from the top leadership and if it is true, there must be documents, orders, basically some kind of evidence existing in the ex-Soviet archives.You are making a number of assumptions here. What leads you to believe Red Army personnel needed explicit orders to commit atrocities, especially seeing as many of them had very profound reasons to be hateful of the Germans, and were continously subjected to propaganda addressing the basest of instincts ?

Cheers,
IJ.

jaybe
02-05-2009, 02:30 AM
Soviet Russia science a that time was under influence of Lysenko. His theories were against Mendelian genetics. Automaticaly it lead to rejection of eugenics theories. Soviets had no scientific base to create any master race theories.
A contry that was closest in that period to establish a "racial hygene" was USA, fortunatly they decided against it due to moral reasons. After war when holocaust became undeniable fact eugenics movment already in decline fell apart completly.



Are you trying to say that Russians did not killed Jews only because they were stupid?
Fantastic.

Holycrusader
02-05-2009, 02:34 AM
Wrong order, correct one is:

1.Ribentrop-Molotov happened months before war has started and it was about partition of Poland.
2. Germany starts a war
3. Poland looses totally
4. Russia enters Poland
5. Poland looses totally ;)

The USSR didn't enter Poland until the Polish Army was effectively routed, divided and most importantly encircled (which created huge difficulties for its continued effectiveness), the government had collapsed and the country was already defeated. Now don't get me wrong, the USSR and Germany planned this course of events well in advance, so both share the responsibility for it, and of course like with the Russians and other peoples, plenty of Poles were deported by Stalin; the intelligencia was purged, etc...

However to think that Poland could have successfully resisted the German forces had the USSR not invaded from the other side is not supported by any facts. The USSR invasion may have provided the final blow to Polish morale, but it was effectively just a kick on the ribs to a person already lying semi-conscious on the ground; Poland's fate was sealed before the USSR invaded.

It was a crime no doubt, but I think the outcome of Poland divided between Germany and the USSR, is better than the outcome of Germany completely occupying Poland. Not only because there were less deaths in Soviet-occupied Poland, but also because the extra buffer space gave the USSR extra breathing room, perhaps just enough to prevent a German attack on Moscow, thus helping the USSR win the war and ultimately save the Polish from complete extermination and enslavement

I agree...

Switek
02-05-2009, 03:06 AM
Maybe you would like to check your sources again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

German civilian deaths due to the expulsion of Germans after World War II are not included with World War Two Casualties. A 1958 West German government study estimated 2.3 million civilians perished during the post war expulsions.


May be you missed the original idea of this thread. Well it's quite possible couse it turned to Russo-Polish-German row about everything.

My point was that German causalities, shoot death with cold blood, murdered and killed in camps and other places can on Polish territories be counted in thousands. I mean situations not directly concerned with fightings. Hope we'll find consensus on this topic.

Switek
02-05-2009, 03:43 AM
It seems not only him.

The Pact itself was _not_ about partition of Poland, it was a fairly common non-aggresion agreement. Also, addendums to Pact were about spheres of interest, and not exclusively about partition(which wasn't even mentioned) of Poland, which was mentioned in part 2. I advise you to read the full text again. :cantbeli:Comrade Stalin would be proud of you. Commie propaganda is still alive :roll:


It wasn't about partition of Poland itself It was abou partition of East Europe


Most notably, there was also a secret protocol to the pact, revealed only on Germany's defeat in 1945, according to which the states of Northern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe) and Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe) were divided into German and Soviet "spheres of influence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spheres_of_influence)". [94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact#cite_note-mrtext-93) The USSR was promised an eastern part of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), primarily populated with Ukrainians and Belarusians, in case of its dissolution, and additionally Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia), Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia) and Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) were recognized as parts of the Soviet sphere of influence,[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact#cite_note-mrtext-93) with Lithuania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania) added in a second secret protocol in September of 1939.[95] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact#cite_note-christie-94) In the North, Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland), Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia) and Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia) were apportioned to the Soviet sphere.[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact#cite_note-mrtext-93) Poland was to be partitioned in the event of its "political rearrangement"—the areas east of the rivers Narev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narev), Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula) and San (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_River) going to the Soviet Union while the Germans would occupy the west.[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact#cite_note-mrtext-93) Lithuania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania), adjacent to East Prussia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia), would be in the German sphere of influence. According to the secret protocol, Lithuania would retrieve its historical capital Vilnius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius), occupied during the inter-war period by Poland. Another clause of the treaty was that Bessarabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabia), then part of Romania, was to be joined to the Moldovan ASSR, and become the Moldovan SSR under control of Moscow.[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact#cite_note-mrtext-93) A German diplomat Hans von Herwarth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Herwarth) informed his U.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) colleague Charles Bohlen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bohlen) of the secret protocol on August 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_24), but the information stopped at the desk of President Franklin Roosevelt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt).

TakeIt
02-05-2009, 04:23 AM
:cantbeli:Comrade Stalin would be proud of you. Commie propaganda is still alive :roll:Funny, how often the "propaganda" word pops up in every case, that don't suit agenda.


It wasn't about partition of Poland itself It was abou partition of East EuropeI'm amazed at the inability or unwillingness to read the actual document instead of it's interpretations. Also it's quite interesting that only that secret protocol always mentioned, without the main agreement itself, which was actually more important. Looks like some still think or want to believe that the M-R pact was exclusively about "division of Europe". An interesting aberration.

Switek
02-05-2009, 04:38 AM
Funny, how often the "propaganda" word pops up in every case, that don't suit agenda.

I'm amazed at the inability or unwillingness to read the actual document instead of it's interpretations. Also it's quite interesting that only that secret protocol always mentioned, without the main agreement itself, which was actually more important. Looks like some still think or want to believe that the M-R pact was exclusively about "division of Europe". An interesting aberration.

What happened then in mentioned area between fall 1939 and spring 1941, huh?

I always admired Russian ability of miss-, under-, over interpretation of their own history and following Bolshevik propaganda :|

jaybe
02-05-2009, 04:41 AM
What happened then in mentioned area between fall 1939 and spring 1941, huh?

I always admired Polish ability of miss-, under-, over interpretation of their own history and following Bolshevik propaganda if nessesary :|

corrected for you

Switek
02-05-2009, 04:54 AM
corrected for you

You didn't need do it. We have history where things and incidents are named as they are.

I remember times and accidents when my friends had problems at school when named your invasion as an aggression and what happened later: occupation with all examples of extermination of Poles what happened between 1939-1941 an 1944-49. I really know you point couse I got this soviet BS during my education. Fortunately we showed this washed Stalinist ***** out.

Sooner or later you'll have go thorough the same process and learn history once again.

jaybe
02-05-2009, 05:03 AM
You didn't need do it. We have history where things and incidents are named as they are.

I remember times and accidents when my friends had problems at school when named your invasion as an aggression and what happened later: occupation with all examples of extermination of Poles what happened between 1939-1941 an 1944-49. I really know you point couse I got this soviet BS during my education. Fortunately we showed this washed Stalinist ***** out.

Sooner or later you'll have go thorough the same process and learn history once again.

Nobody is flawless, and i do not believe your "We have history where things and incidents are named as they are.", coz i've heard so BS from Polaks, i'll repeat coorecting you - "We have history where things and incidents are named as we need."

TakeIt
02-05-2009, 05:12 AM
You didn't need do it. We have history where things and incidents are named as they are. Sooner or later you'll have go thorough the same process and learn history once again.Unfortunately judging from the posts of polish members here you didn't do well with that new history.

Switek
02-05-2009, 05:32 AM
Nobody is flawless, and i do not believe your "We have history where things and incidents are named as they are.", coz i've heard so BS from Polaks, i'll repeat coorecting you - "We have history where things and incidents are named as we need."

One of many others factor which form post soviet intellectual demoralization structure ("**** sovieticus"), does not concern only Russians, names: ambivalence.

I really do not care whether history of my country, nation was noble or disgraceful, good or bad. I care about the truth which tells that people behave sometimes good, sometimes bad way.

So good luck in living in denial.

jaybe
02-05-2009, 05:34 AM
One of many others factor which form post soviet intellectual demoralization structure ("**** sovieticus"), does not concern only Russians, names: ambivalence.

I really do not care whether history of my country, nation was noble or disgraceful, good or bad. I care about the truth which tells that people behave sometimes good, sometimes bad way.

So good luck in living in denial.

Try to find any fact i denied. Good luck.

Switek
02-05-2009, 05:35 AM
Unfortunately judging from the posts of polish members here you didn't do well with that new history.


There is no new or old history. History is one. (well except history of those who tried create new man and new society murdering millions)

Switek
02-05-2009, 05:36 AM
Try to find any fact i denied. Good luck.

isn't your falsification?


What happened then in mentioned area between fall 1939 and spring 1941, huh?

I always admired Polish ability of miss-, under-, over interpretation of their own history and following Bolshevik propaganda if nessesary :-|

jaybe
02-05-2009, 05:37 AM
There is no new or old history. History is one. (well except history of those who tried create new man and new society murdering millions)

Do you mean Hitler here, who is even not on Polish list of 20 worst dictators of XX century?

jaybe
02-05-2009, 05:40 AM
isn't your falsification?

It is a fact i researched from talking with Polaks. Young of them do not remember any facts about Chekhoslovakia i.e. The fact you personally do not deny this one happened is plus only for you not for Poland at all.

JCR
02-05-2009, 05:42 AM
Not trying to take sides here, but if you look at the english wikipedia, there's sometimes an amazing bit of creative history writing going on from polish side.
Like the article of the "Blood court of Thorn" (lynching of serveral protestants in 1742) or on Kopernikus' nationality or claiming basically the whole history to be a huge conspiracy against the poles...

I only noticed the articles on polish-german affairs, dunno if polish-russian affairs are affected either.
But maybe the difference is just that germans usually don't fight back while russians just repay in kind.
I don't know wether thats because of historical guilt or because we lack this passion for past glory that russians, poles and other slavs have.

Switek
02-05-2009, 06:02 AM
Do you mean Hitler here, who is even not on Polish list of 20 worst dictators of XX century?

I don't care ... every media in Poland can create its own "objective" list.

Switek
02-05-2009, 06:05 AM
...
I don't know wether thats because of historical guilt or because we lack this passion for past glory that russians, poles and other slavs have.

Oh c'mon. There has been an intensive fighting between Germans and Poles about English name for Gdańsk/Danzing in Wikipedia, lately. p-)

jaybe
02-05-2009, 06:10 AM
I don't care ... every media in Poland can create its own "objective" list.

So, every media in Poland creates it's own list, but every single Russian on internet forum presents whole Mother Russia? Quite impressive logic.

perdurabo
02-05-2009, 06:28 AM
i wanted to say something, i'v writen long post with links to sources on state of German army after september campign, on how Soviets entered Poland "after" our goverment fleed to Romania, or how we where disorganized bunch throwing ourselves on tanks with sabers. But i realised that nothing what i will write dosent matter, posters here have their own visions truth won't break trough. EOT frm my side.

Slinky
02-05-2009, 06:49 AM
Nazis-Bad
Soviets-Bad
everyone else-Good
To sum up the thread.....

Switek
02-05-2009, 06:55 AM
So, every media in Poland creates it's own list, but every single Russian on internet forum presents whole Mother Russia? Quite impressive logic.


Was this list of "bloodiest 20 fellows" based on national referendum? Or it was "poll" done by some paper? I guess that second. So it can be true that for some Poles Hitler wasn't one of those bad guys couse of different reasons.

The true is that for some folks in [ Russia ] (or put the name of any country between brackets) Adolf Hitler is the best statesman ever and personal hero.

As you can see, the word some makes a difference.

TakeIt
02-05-2009, 07:12 AM
i wanted to say something, i'v writen long post with links to sourcesWhy, that would be a sight to see.. But judging from your words you basically tried to re-phrase wiki..


But i realised that nothing what i will write dosent matterIf you wrote something meaningfull it would be interesting, but so far you showed that you don't even analyse what you read, much less what you write.

~~~~
02-05-2009, 01:37 PM
So, who started?

Japan.

.

mack pl
02-05-2009, 01:49 PM
Japan.

.

Well, I remember some Chinese mp.net member claiming that 1st Sep 1939 was not first day of WW II.

JCR
02-05-2009, 02:42 PM
Teh Romanz??
What did they ever do for us?

Flamming_Python
02-05-2009, 03:04 PM
Nazis-Bad
Soviets-Bad
everyone else-Good
To sum up the thread.....

To be precise

Nazis-Bad
Soviets-Bad
Everyone else-Bad

Everyone in WW2 was either a Fascist, Stalinist or Imperalist/Coloniser (well OK US was pretty mild by comparison). Out of all of them though, The Nazis were the ones who decided to dabble their hand in genocide and mass-extermniation.

Mr.K
02-05-2009, 03:16 PM
To be precise

Nazis-Bad
Soviets-Bad
Everyone else-Bad

Everyone in WW2 was either a Fascist, Stalinist or Imperalist/Coloniser (well OK US was pretty mild by comparison). Out of all of them though, The Nazis were the ones who decided to dabble their hand in genocide and mass-extermniation.

Nyet, Poland was good! Poland is always good in any conflict! Poland Strong!!11

End of rant.

Connaught Ranger
02-05-2009, 03:18 PM
To be precise

Nazis-Bad
Soviets-Bad
Everyone else-Bad

Everyone in WW2 was either a Fascist, Stalinist or Imperalist/Coloniser (well OK US was pretty mild by comparison). Out of all of them though, The Nazis were the ones who decided to dabble their hand in genocide and mass-extermniation.

You forgot to add the other Communists:roll:

Connaught Ranger

Connaught Ranger
02-05-2009, 03:22 PM
Well, I remember some Chinese mp.net member claiming that 1st Sep 1939 was not first day of WW II.


Did he forget to add the 17th of September too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

Mr.K
02-05-2009, 03:23 PM
You forgot to add the other Communists:roll:

Connaught Ranger

Soviets didn't have a "final solution" policy. There was no racial superiority complex.

Mr.K
02-05-2009, 03:26 PM
Did he forget to add the 17th of September too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)


No article title matches

No page with that title exists.


Gasp, the communists took control of wiki!

Flamming_Python
02-05-2009, 03:35 PM
You forgot to add the other Communists:roll:

Connaught Ranger

And Britain, France, Belgium, etc... who were butchering and starving millions of people in Asia and Africa :roll:

Connaught Ranger
02-05-2009, 04:15 PM
And Britain, France, Belgium, etc... who were butchering and starving millions of people in Asia and Africa :roll:

Sure they were in WW2 that's how they forced the "locals" to join the military and fight ze evil germans and japanese

And they had Ireland surrounded too:roll:

Connaught Ranger
02-05-2009, 04:18 PM
Soviets didn't have a "final solution" policy. There was no racial superiority complex.

Of course not, you either were a good communist or a dead / dying in a slave camp capitalist, fascist agitator enemy of the USSRp-)

Mr.K
02-05-2009, 04:48 PM
Of course not, you either were a good communist or a dead / dying in a slave camp capitalist, fascist agitator enemy of the USSRp-)

And since you're alive i suppose you're a good communistp-)

TakeIt
02-05-2009, 04:49 PM
Of course not, you either were a good communist or a dead / dying in a slave camp capitalist, fascist agitator enemy of the USSRp-)The communist party members even in their best years represented only 10-12% of population. RTFM.

glabro_wolf
02-05-2009, 06:48 PM
Well, there is nothing special in those graves. Those people were killed by Germans or Russian during war time. This, for sure, wasn’t unusual. Also I got silly feeling that both sides were involved. In fact those graves can be only controversial if Malbork victims were killed by Polish People Army or Homeland Army. But for sure this wasn’t typical for those formations so I deeply doubt that poles were involved there. In fact I’m almost certain that they weren’t.

Flamming_Python
02-05-2009, 07:13 PM
Sure they were in WW2 that's how they forced the "locals" to join the military and fight ze evil germans and japanese

And they had Ireland surrounded too:roll:

Divide and Rule. They had plenty of peoples under their flag; pit some against others, recruit from the people favoured to you.

AFAIK, the Indians for example fought for the British, because Britain promised them independence if they do!

CPL Trevoga
02-05-2009, 09:06 PM
You are making a number of assumptions here. What leads you to believe Red Army personnel needed explicit orders to commit atrocities, especially seeing as many of them had very profound reasons to be hateful of the Germans, and were continously subjected to propaganda addressing the basest of instincts ?

Cheers,
IJ.

Anything on such large scale would required some kind of orders, that was nature of the Red army. Punishment for not following orders was death. I'm trying to dig up some numbers of executions in the Red army for 1945. Anyways, history of WW2 has many dark spots that needs to be shed light on. Hopefully the investigation of this grave site will give some answers.

There were Polish units with in Soviet formations on the Eastern front, I'm sure some of the our Polish members read their memoirs or other historical facts and maybe they can bring some info on the subject of atrocities.

Kilgor
02-05-2009, 09:11 PM
Anything on such large scale would required some kind of orders, that was nature of the Red army. Punishment for not following orders was death. I'm trying to dig up some numbers of executions in the Red army for 1945. Anyways, history of WW2 has many dark spots that needs to be shed light on. Hopefully the investigation of this grave site will give some answers.

This was the orders from the top regarding rape.

" understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle" - Stalin

rusak
02-05-2009, 10:29 PM
This was the orders from the top regarding rape.

" understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle" - Stalin
No it wasn't. That's obviously no order at all. Don't you think it dishonorable to distort the facts like that? Tell me something, what exactly is your issue? You are in every Russia-related thread making sure to point out just how badn'evil the USSR was, especially compared to the beloved Merca. Why is it so important for you to vilify the USSR every chance you get? ***** just looks ridiculous from the side, and someone had to let you know that. Why does all this eastern Euro crap matter to you so much? I know there's a reason, it's never "just because".

TakeIt
02-05-2009, 10:51 PM
This was the orders from the top regarding rape.
" understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle" - StalinI advise you to research the source of this "quotation". And it seems you don't understand the difference between an issued order and an understanding of human instincts.

W.E.Kurtz
02-05-2009, 11:07 PM
well Kilgor im sure that US soldiers never ever raped or killed civilians :)

atrocities were made by all sides plain and simple as a ****ing

1800 poor germans were killed?? buu ****ing hooo
in first day of warsaw uprising those brave germans killed about 20000 civilians my grandma witnessed some of this ****. half of my family were killed in treblinka uhh i think they were civilians too :roll: so sorry for not being polite but they had it coming.

ps.your country SOLD us to Stalin :|

Flamming_Python
02-05-2009, 11:28 PM
No it wasn't. That's obviously no order at all. Don't you think it dishonorable to distort the facts like that? Tell me something, what exactly is your issue? You are in every Russia-related thread making sure to point out just how badn'evil the USSR was, especially compared to the beloved Merca. Why is it so important for you to vilify the USSR every chance you get? ***** just looks ridiculous from the side, and someone had to let you know that. Why does all this eastern Euro crap matter to you so much? I know there's a reason, it's never "just because".

Man let it be. Kilgor has been around for a long time it won't be fun without him :)

jaybe
02-06-2009, 02:23 AM
You forgot to add the other Communists:roll:

Connaught Ranger

Genocide by communists? that's something new.

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 03:02 AM
This was the orders from the top regarding rape.

" understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle" - Stalin


Big BS... Do you even know how the order look?

asch
02-06-2009, 03:04 AM
Of course not, you either were a good communist or a dead / dying in a slave camp capitalist, fascist agitator enemy of the USSRp-)
that's clear bull****. my family managed to live through USSR times with no Party members at all. and it's not a rare thing.

Switek
02-06-2009, 03:39 AM
This was the orders from the top regarding rape.

" understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle" - Stalin

I really do not believe if such order ever existed. But I do believe that there was in whole command chain a acquiescence for rapes. The scale of rapes done in Germane proves it.


well Kilgor im sure that US soldiers never ever raped or killed civilians :)

Even if it was common procedure that they were arrested an sentenced. I've read about some examples of such atrocities done by Poles from Polish Armed Forces in the West. The justice was cruel for them. Sentenced to death.


1800 poor germans were killed?? buu ****ing hooo
in first day of warsaw uprising those brave germans killed about 20000 civilians my grandma witnessed some of this ****. half of my family were killed in treblinka uhh i think they were civilians too :roll: so sorry for not being polite but they had it coming.

ps.your country SOLD us to Stalin :|

Citizens of Warsaw murdered during Warsaw Uprising 1944 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising) died much often from hands of Russians, Ukrainians and Azeris and Cossacks than Germans itself.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Genera%C5%82_Heinz_Reinefarth_w_czapce_kubance_i_3_pu%C5%82k_Kozak%C3%B3wdotjpg


SS-Gruppenführer Heinz Reinefarth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Reinefarth) "Butcher of Wola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre)" (on the left), General of police and Waffen-SS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS) and the Regiment III of Cossacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks) of Jakub Bondarenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Bondarenko) during Warsaw Uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising) around Wolska street. Third Regiment of Cossacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks) contained mix of Cossacks from many regions, and Jakub Bondarenko was commanding 5th Regiment of Kuban Cossack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Cossack) Infantry.

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 03:50 AM
Citizens of Warsaw murdered during Warsaw Uprising 1944 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising) died much often from hands of Russians, Ukrainians and Azeris and Cossacks than Germans itself.
[/IMG]

It does not make Germans less responsible. I'm from Wola, the part of Warsaw that was butchered by Germans in the first day of uprising... People were still hate Germans there.

A propo Azeris - Azeri president visit museum of Warsaw uprising. Director of museum and our el presidente thanks him for Azeri fights in that events. Somebody forget to say them on which sides Azeri fight

http://miasta.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,34889,2628312.html

Connaught Ranger
02-06-2009, 03:54 AM
And since you're alive i suppose you're a good communistp-)

No, I am a very good Anglo-Irish man:hug:

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 03:55 AM
This was the orders from the top regarding rape.

" understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle" - Stalin

If you like to quote Stalin why you did not choose this quote "Hitlers come, and Hitlers go, but the German people go on forever."

Switek
02-06-2009, 04:06 AM
It does not make Germans less responsible. I'm from Wola, the part of Warsaw that was butchered by Germans in the first day of uprising... People were still hate Germans there.

A propo Azeris - Azeri president visit museum of Warsaw uprising. Director of museum and our el presidente thanks him for Azeri fights in that events. Somebody forget to say them on which sides Azeri fight

http://miasta.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,34889,2628312.html


Seems that were presented on both sides.... I didn't say that Germans weren't responsible. The true is that those butchers were wearing the same Waffen SS uniforms.

Also Wehrmacht troops were responsible for war crimes in Warsaw.

Some interesting details about Russian atrocities during Warsaw Uprising

Ochota massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochota_massacre) done by members of one of regiments of the collaborationist Kaminski Brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminski_Brigade) of Waffen-SS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS), which also called itself the "Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) National Liberation Army" (Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): Русская Освободительная Народная Армия, RONA).

And some feedback given after their "performance" in Warsaw:


The story of the horrors perpetrated by Dirlewanger's and Kaminski's men even reached the Führer's headquarters. In his memoirs Guderian says: "What I learnt...was so appalling that I felt myself bound to inform Hitler about it that same evening and to demand the removal of the two brigades from the Eastern Front." Even SS-GruppenführerFegelein, Himmler's chief representative at Hitler HQ, confirmed the story, saying: "It is true, mein Führer, those men are real scoundrels."
Source (http://stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com/id6.html)

Of course those atrocities incriminates, first of all Germans, Nazis but sometimes is worth to know what things happened.

I know that only few our Russian mates are aware of the scale of Russian collaboration during WW2.

mack pl
02-06-2009, 04:27 AM
Citizens of Warsaw murdered during Warsaw Uprising 1944 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising) died much often from hands of Russians, Ukrainians and Azeris and Cossacks than Germans itself.


You know, there are planty of myths, and not everything is clear yet. Just type "Ukraińcy Powstanie Warszawskie" in google and you will be able to read interesting things. I'm not saying there were no Ukrainians who commited crimes during Warsaw uprising of course.

http://www.historia.gildia.pl/wiek-xx/wojskowosc/ii-wojna-swiatowa/wlasowcy-w-powstaniu-warszawskim

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 04:39 AM
I know that only few our Russian mates are aware of the scale of Russian collaboration during WW2.

Do you think Polish society is aware about a scale of our collaboration in time of WWII?
Its normal that people prefer do not know about such things...

Switek
02-06-2009, 04:49 AM
Do you think Polish society is aware about a scale of our collaboration in time of WWII?
Its normal that people prefer do not know about such things...

We, Poles really do not have reason to be ashamed.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalne_Gubernatorstwo#Kolaboracja

mack pl
02-06-2009, 05:26 AM
Do you know why Gestapo had easy job? Because of Poles who were eager to inform them about everything. When we hear the word "collaboration" we think about France, but you can not say that we have nothing to be ashamed. It's easy to point out someone else mistakes/faults, than our own.

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 05:31 AM
We, Poles really do not have reason to be ashamed.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalne_Gubernatorstwo#Kolaboracja

Szmalcownicy. Do you know that word Switek?

If yes, do not talk such things.

Switek
02-06-2009, 05:44 AM
Szmalcownicy. Do you know that word Switek?

If yes, do not talk such things.


I know what Szmalcownik is. I know that there were many more such scumbags than it commonly seems. And I do not deny those disgraceful proceedings.

Anyway we can not forget that collaboration cases mainly happened on individual level. never institutional. Our "authorities" did not cooperate with Nazis on Jewish extermination.

The second side of the coin is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_among_the_Nations). Don't forget that Germans used to execute whole families (children, women, babes, elders) for helping Jews, sometimes killing all inhabitants of houses where Jews were hidden. Such punishment obliged only on Polish territories. Not in other European countries.

So I feel, besides all, rather proud.

Switek
02-06-2009, 05:52 AM
Do you know why Gestapo had easy job? Because of Poles who were eager to inform them about everything. When we hear the word "collaboration" we think about France, but you can not say that we have nothing to be ashamed. It's easy to point out someone else mistakes/faults, than our own.


Do you know what was behind legendary success of British intelligence MI6?

Of course I do not deny any kind of collaboration but do you believe that, basing on your words, could our resistance (estimated between 200.000 - 450.000 armed and unarmed personnel) ever existed if Gestapo was so successful?

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 06:11 AM
I know what Szmalcownik is. I know that there were many more such scumbags than it commonly seems. And I do not deny those disgraceful proceedings.

Anyway we can not forget that collaboration cases mainly happened on individual level. never institutional. Our "authorities" did not cooperate with Nazis on Jewish extermination.


Do you know about "goralenvolk"?
That kolaboration was not on idndividual level, my dear.

This quaite nice a thing to read
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.polish/2007-09/msg01654.html

Do you want more examples, I can give you?

Switek
02-06-2009, 06:22 AM
Do you know about "goralenvolk"?
That kolaboration was not on idndividual level, my dear.

This quaite nice a thing to read
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.polish/2007-09/msg01654.html

Are you serious? I's still kind of local initiative, a kind of joke, if it was funny, at all, off course. They even tried to form an Wehrmacht battalion with an obvious result.


Try, please, find the name of the biggest unit created from Polish volunteers which fought in German uniforms in WW2 and compare this with other nations... ;)

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 06:28 AM
Are you serious? I's still kind of local initiative, a kind of joke, if it was funny, at all, off course. They even tried to form an Wehrmacht battalion with an obvious result.


Try, please, find the name of the biggest unit created from Polish volunteers which fought in German uniforms in WW2 and compare this with other nations... ;)

more than 10.000 people is enough? Sorry but they fought on german sides in Polish uniforms
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granatowa_policja

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pl/e/ec/PP_i_Ordungspolizei_na_akcjidotjpg

Do you know who kill first Jews from warsaw ghetto for breaking a law prohibited them leaving a ghetto? Suprise, suprise it was not a german...

And read about kapitan Adolf Pilch "Gora"...

Switek
02-06-2009, 06:45 AM
more than 10.000 people is enough? Sorry but they fought on german sides in Polish uniforms
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granatowa_policja

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pl/e/ec/PP_i_Ordungspolizei_na_akcjidotjpg

Do you know who kill first Jews from warsaw ghetto for breaking a law prohibited them leaving a ghetto? Suprise, suprise it was not a german...

And read about kapitan Adolf Pilch "Gora"...

From the source you gave we can find out that 25-30% cooperated with (or were members of) the resistance. German authorities didn't trust them. Besides you should know that "Blue Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Police)" wasn't volunteer formation.

BTW, Have you idea for how many causalities in Ghettos were responsible Jewish policemen from Judenordnungdienst? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police)

In every organization you can find brave decent men and simple scumbags. Esp. during the war itself.

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 06:51 AM
From the source you gave we can find out that 25-30% cooperated with (or were members of) the resistance. German authorities didn't trust them. Besides you should know that "Blue Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Police)" wasn't volunteer formation.

BTW, Have you idea for how many causalities in Ghettos were responsible Jewish policemen from Judenordnungdienst? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police)

In every organization you can find brave decent men and simple scumbags. Esp. during the war itself.

Polish Police as an Grantowa policja colaboarted with germans. More than 600 of them get death sentence for that. Goralenvolk was a case in which whole villages and small cities agree on formal colaboration with Germans. Even our resistance formation from AK colaborate sometimes with Germans to fight with soviet and jewish partizans (I give an name of such commanders some post earlier)

So you cannot write that Polish collaboration with Germans exist only on individual level, its simply not true...

Switek
02-06-2009, 07:14 AM
Polish Police as an Grantowa policja colaboarted with germans. More than 600 of them get death sentence for that. Goralenvolk was a case in which whole villages and small cities agree on formal colaboration with Germans. Even our resistance formation from AK colaborate sometimes with Germans to fight with soviet and jewish partizans (I give an name of such commanders some post earlier)

So you cannot write that Polish collaboration with Germans exist only on individual level, its simply not true...


If there was any official political agenda representing Poles in occupied territories and collaborating with Germans thew we'd say about institutional collaboration. Compare scale of our collaboration with Nazis with other nations or states during WW2 then, may be, you'll find out my point. EOT


In October 1939, General Governor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Government) Hans Frank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Frank) ordered the mobilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization) of the pre-war Polish police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_police) into the service of the Germans. The policemen were to report for duty or face the death penalty.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Police#cite_note-Hempel_2-2)

Asheren
02-06-2009, 07:14 AM
Yes there were cases of "collaboration" and collaboration. You should read: "A ponad wszystkim spiew skowronka." (i am not 100% sure about title its been a while) It is showing a good example of first case.

It worked same way peoples were memmbers of communists party after war.

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 07:16 AM
If there was any official political agenda representing Poles in occupied territories and collaborating with Germans thew we'd say about institutional collaboration. Compare scale of our collaboration with Nazis with other nations or states during WW2 then, may be, you'll find out my point. EOT

Polish police was institution - yes
Do they collaborate - yes

No, I do not get your point. EOT

Asheren
02-06-2009, 07:24 AM
He is saying that level of active collaboration in Poland was low.

jaybe
02-06-2009, 07:25 AM
He is saying that level of active collaboration in Poland was low.

in such case - where it was high?

TakeIt
02-06-2009, 07:33 AM
Compare scale of our collaboration with Nazis with other nations or states during WW2 then, may be, you'll find out my point. EOTInteresting, when comparing Germany and SU you thinks they're the same with difference only in scale, yet now the scale is important to differentiate. Cognitive dissonance?

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 07:58 AM
He is saying that level of active collaboration in Poland was low.


I agree. But I do not agree that collaboration was only on individual level. Its simply not true...

Holycrusader
02-06-2009, 08:00 AM
in such case - where it was high?

In France or Czechoslovakia?

Asheren
02-06-2009, 09:34 AM
I agree. But I do not agree that collaboration was only on individual level. Its simply not true...

Indeed it is not true but its difficult to measure active level of collaboration today.

While Perduarbo might not want to do some stuff i will. I think its time to open some eyes.

Gliwice were a first large city that was a part of Germany before 1939 liberated by Red Army.

Form IPN investigation started in 2004 about "homicide of over 800 civilians in Gliwice and surrounding areas in period from January till late spring 1945."

From witness summaries (it might not be direct translation but ill try my best) From trials required to obtain proof of death. Judges were afraid to conclude that peoples were killed by Red army soliders.
M Scholdra testimony
26 january red army soliders draged my husband from our appartment. He was killed with rifle shot in front of me. His body was buried in cmentary on Kozielska street." -offcial verdict killed during wartime operations

Emma D 33 years daughter of Fanciszek and Eve. Investigation of Pawel Badura death Emma D stepfather
During a night from 6 to 7 january 1945 pair of red army soliders entered our house and demanded a place to stay. They were sleeping in my room. Someone knocked to room and asked me to come out. I recognised my stepfather voice. Russians woke up and left the room. I heard pair of shots. 10 min later soliders came back and told that they killed my father. They asked if i feel sorry for his death. I wanted to leave the room but they didn't let me threating me with a Revolwer. In the morning i found blood and pair of bullet ceasings on the floor. We were unable to find father body they most propably put it on their truck while leaving. Russians didn't returned. -offcial verdict killed by unknown attackers
IPN suspect that Pawel Badura was killed while he was trying to stop soliders from raping his stepdaughter.

J Scholz testimony about death of Walter Scholz
I 1945 my husband was arrested by Germans and he was held in Gliwice prison. 22 january after return from prison he was hiding in basement where he was found by Russian soliders and killed.

G Luks Walter Scholz homicide witness
23 january when red army soliders liberated city i was hiding in a building on Zwyciestwa 8 street basement. In the morning a man around 40 years old came in to basement. He said his surname was Scholz and he was living on Chorzowska street. He was living with us till 24 january. We had to leave basement under orders from Red army soliders. They have separated 6 men from our group and killed them in the courtyard. I saw execution with my own eyes. Scholz was amongst executed. They killed also my son ignoring that he was asking for sparing his life in fluent Polish.- oficial verdict killed during war time operations of red army during liberation of Gliwice city.


Resons behind Bojkow massacre are still not fully known.
Some suspect that Red army planed a ehtnic cleanesing. Bojkow was a close German community created in 18 century by settlers from Frankonia. Some witness said that Bojkow massacre was a punishment for death of Red army officer killed by a Volksturm solider. There are other possible reasons that don't contradict with each other.

A Ciupke testimony about 27 jannuary in Bojkow

We came to church that morning. I was altar boy. My sister Emmily brothers Peter and Johann were with me. I won't forget that day for rest of my life. That day i lost pair of my syblings. When we came back, Russians were all over the place. Entering houses, picking whatever they wanted mostly vodka and women. I saw them beating and torturing my father. Then how one after another they killed first my brother peter, then my sister. She was caught trying to go to check on our grandmother. She was raped in the barn and then shot. We were hiding with aunt, mother and resto of surviving family in barn for 2 days. All houses in village were set on fire. From 120 or more peoples murdered by russians i knew few closely. Village had around 500 houses and 5 thousants residents. In one of the houses they found 16 peoples -children and elderly. They all were herded in to one room, doused in gasoline then burned alive.

G. Botschek Bojkow massacre witness In january 1945 he was 14

-Russians entered village and murdered 200-300 peoples... In february i found dead rector sister Emily in garden. She was lying there *****.
In july i was arrested and became Polish POW. I was accused to be Hitlerjugend member. They released me in 1947. My father two years later.

A. Soklaska from Bojkow 17 years old in 1945

Mother hid me because she was afraid that Russians would rape me. From january to may 1945 i was hiding with other girls. I saw many bad things.

A. Schiffczyk 12 years old in 1945

I heard peoples talking that Russians raped and killed sisters in Gliwice cloister. I saw massacre of men at Annabergstrasse 38 in Gliwice.

Witness testimony form execution of French citizen Alfred Fache a slave worker in Ironworks from 1943. He was killed 24 january with 10 other workers. He, his french descendant Polish friend and that friend polish girlfriend were searching for food. They meet some Soviet soliders who wanted that girl for themselves, so they killed the workers.

H.Scholz 14 years old in 1945
I remember how a 12 years old girl living on Hutnicza 7 street was raped multiple times by Russians.

Story repeated itself in Zabrze and on even larger scale in Bytom.
Witness also mention a good "Russkie" that shared food with them, protected women from rape and protected them from Polish szabrownicy but they were a minority.

Flamming_Python
02-06-2009, 11:45 AM
The second side of the coin is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_among_the_Nations). Don't forget that Germans used to execute whole families (children, women, babes, elders) for helping Jews, sometimes killing all inhabitants of houses where Jews were hidden. Such punishment obliged only on Polish territories. Not in other European countries.

So I feel, besides all, rather proud.

I'm sure it happened in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia as well.

I don't understand why you are talking out of your ass about Russian collaboration? Stalin's USSR was hardly popular so in the beginning at least there were plenty of groups that tried to side with the Germans against the Soviets. Even then, I doubt the scale of Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian collaboration was any higher than Polish one, when you compare the population of Poland to the population of European Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Out of 10's of millions of people who served in the Red Army over those 4 years, you pick some little 'Russian Liberation Army'?

Musashi
02-07-2009, 05:04 PM
Let's go back to the topic.
I read a new article in Gazeta Wyborcza a few days ago but I haven't bookmarked it unfortunately.
There are witnesses' testimonies who claim most Germans were murdered by neither the Poles nor the Soviets. Although the Germans decided to evacuate the civilians from the city, many of them did not obey the order. They died of hunger and cold. The witnesses said the streets had been littered with German bodies and they had to move them to the mass grave.
Less than 20 were executed by the Soviets.
I think this explanation is sensible as less than 20 bodies have any traces of wounds.
However the investigation is pending.

Herman the II
02-07-2009, 05:41 PM
I googled for that article and interestingly the story is getting a bit fishy, there are several newspapers that heavily criticize the "Gazeta Wyborcza".
Their eyewitness seems quite doubtful and the claim that less than 20 bodies show any traces of wounds is simply wrong as at the beginning of the story there were already 200+ victims with execution marks, that was before the excavation was even finished (its still ongoing).
Here is a rather long story by polskaweb translated via google:
polskaweb.eu (http://translate.google.com.au/translate?prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpolskaweb.eu%2Fmassengrab-marienburg-vertuscht-56789.html&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=)

I have no idea what to think about all this...:|

Kilgor
02-08-2009, 02:23 AM
Big BS... Do you even know how the order look?

Maybe you didn't get what I was saying, the order was... there was no order.

The lack of displincine in a army of men who were used to exceptional levels of strict rules and conduct for certain behaviours is just very suprising. For saying the wrong thing about the leadership you could be dragged away to a camp, but for rape it was considerd inconsquiental. The leadership could have introduced tough measures easier, but didnt. It was only after the outbreak of serious levels of VD did things have to change.

Switek
02-08-2009, 02:42 AM
...
I have no idea what to think about all this...:|


The world isn't just black and white.

TakeIt
02-08-2009, 07:00 AM
Maybe you didn't get what I was saying, the order was... there was no order.So you simply lied.


The lack of displincine in a army of men who were used to ...[BS skipped]... only after the outbreak of serious levels of VD did things have to change. Seriously, you obviously have no real knowledge what are you talking about.

Eye
02-08-2009, 08:07 AM
The world isn't just black and white.
Yes. Black can be more or less black, the same with white.

Switek
07-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Good read about this grave:

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75480,6819994,Kto_zabil_w_Malborku.html

Unfortunatelly in Polish but there are few well based thesis that those alleged murder could be done by Germans, as well as Russians or Poles... All possibilities can be taken into account...

John1980
07-18-2009, 06:09 PM
On a personal note, I do believe that there were crimes committed by the individual soldiers or small groups, but some of you trying to equate Nazis to Soviet it's just plain ignorance of the subject or perhaps reading too many memoirs of bitter Nazi Generals.
The whole EINSATZGRUPPEN was pretty small, total less than 1 regiment strong, circa 4 battalions (of varied sizes, from small to medium). Most of their actions would fit that description, yet it is said thay tallied 1 to 1,5 million deaths. Just saying that number of small or individual events can produce impressive "mass of events". 1 killed here, 2 over there, 20 somewhere else, but when its happening all over the place, like with soviets, we soon get hundreds of thousands of victims, of rape, murder, whatever.

And for the viticms, good thing they were found so that we can learn what happened to them.

Cheers.

sup_tech
07-18-2009, 06:34 PM
Gotta love this Western stereotypes about the Soviet Army as bunch of undisciplined barbarians...
Sooo... in the Stalin's USSR every aspect of the life, death and war was under control except for what to do in the newly liberated from the Nazis territories. For instance, some random Red Army soldiers can just take some time off and go on shooting spree to murder anyone they didn't like at that particular moment. That's interesting. However, more interesting is when a Polish newspaper publishes an article about a newly discovered mass grave and jumps on the very popular russophobic wagon nobody even mentions that those civilian Germans could have died from the revenge shootings or even plain robberies by Polaks.

Or and Switek, if it's not too difficult, could you please stop being such a Russian-lover and go back being a russophob you are just like the rest of your countrymen? This will make things so much easier. Thank you.

StormzSTA
07-18-2009, 06:39 PM
but there are few well based thesis that those alleged murder could be done by Germans, as well as Russians or Poles

you read that, sup_tech? German, Russians or Polish.


Polaks

Nice, this just proves you're a xenophobic ****.

johanness
07-18-2009, 06:52 PM
@sup_tech

Maybe you educate yourself first about the behavior of the Red Army while conquering countries outside from the SU ...

The dislike of the Red Army didn't come out of nothing.
Their way throug Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slowakia, Czechia, the Baltic States and even
Yugoslavia was very riot and brutal. And not only for the German citizans of this nations, also the natives suffered from killing, raping and looting.

As usual ... this is not ment to excuse what happened from German side.
Just to explain why the SovieUnion wasn't loved for liberating ...

What would happened, if the Red Army had come like true liberators?

sup_tech
07-18-2009, 07:07 PM
you read that, sup_tech? German, Russians or Polish.
Nope, I was too busy hatin'.


Nice, this just proves you're a xenophobic ****.
Ad hominem abusive? You should've known it's a big "no-no" here. Reported.

On a side note, I am personally tired of seeing "Russkies" all over the forum. I complained a year ago but mods just ignored it. "Russkies" and "Polaks" go together, don't you find it funny now?

Mousepad
07-19-2009, 02:06 AM
@sup_tech

Maybe you educate yourself first about the behavior of the Red Army while conquering countries outside from the SU ...

The dislike of the Red Army didn't come out of nothing.
Their way throug Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slowakia, Czechia, the Baltic States and even
Yugoslavia was very riot and brutal. And not only for the German citizans of this nations, also the natives suffered from killing, raping and looting.

As usual ... this is not ment to excuse what happened from German side.
Just to explain why the SovieUnion wasn't loved for liberating ...

What would happened, if the Red Army had come like true liberators?

Uh huh, well maybe You will educate us on "suffered from killing, raping and looting" people coz it's 19 years of Russia-bashing spree and i don't see reports and investigations on Soviet rape-race in Eastern Europe, maybe because it's not there.

rolls
07-19-2009, 02:28 AM
No wonder you europeans cant get your **** together.

15 pages of bull**** fingerpoiting. Your all ****ing Pathetic.


RIP for the victims.

Connaught Ranger
07-19-2009, 02:33 AM
No wonder you europeans cant get your **** together.

15 pages of bull**** fingerpoiting. Your all ****ing Pathetic.


RIP for the victims.

Nice of you to lump all us Europeans together like that,

based on the actions of a few posters here,

but then again Europe does have a complex historical background

unlike some of the younger colonized sections of the planet.

Connaught Ranger.:)

rolls
07-19-2009, 02:40 AM
Nice of you to lump all us Europeans together like that,

based on the actions of a few posters here,

but then again Europe does have a complex historical background

unlike some of the younger colonized sections of the planet.

Connaught Ranger.:)


Well i read the whole thread and all i see is.

Russians did this,

Poles did that,

Germans were the worse,

O noes!



Its pathetic really it is. And the last time i checked the younger colonized part of the planet helped out to lift a finger when europe couldnt get it's **** together. I guess its good to have children hmmm?

Connaught Ranger
07-19-2009, 04:46 PM
Well i read the whole thread and all i see is.

Russians did this,

Poles did that,

Germans were the worse,

O noes!



Its pathetic really it is. And the last time i checked the younger colonized part of the planet helped out to lift a finger when europe couldnt get it's **** together. I guess its good to have children hmmm?

Yes and the colonies were thanked for that help when your ancestors, unselfishly volunteered to help out the homeland.woot

Well as I see it, with European history being way longer than yours, and involving more or less continuous conflict, often for petty, spiteful religious and economic reasons, for quite a few centuries among nearly all of the countries in Europe, its easy to see why there is still ass biting over who is to blame for "X" "Y" and "Z", especially if you are on the losing side, its in our human nature to argue as can be seen by some of the threads posted here. It even manifests itself in football supporters worldwide.

Yeah you had kids, so did Europe and the battle goes on, one main difference though, in your history is you did not suffer the same loss and destruction ratios, with regards heads of population or your social and economic structure as the European civil population in any of the wars fought in Europe.

Connaught Ranger.