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T.S.C.Plage
01-06-2009, 09:49 PM
I just found an article about the background of how the USMC became known as "Devil Dogs" and the myth about it. Thought it's maybe an interesting read.


Do the Marines Have It Right?

No one can question the bravery and valor of the U.S. Marines. But is the legend about their "Devil Dogs" nickname based on fact? Every Leatherneck is indocrinated with the tale of how Marines came to be called "Devil Dogs." If you visit Marine recruiting sites on the Web you'll find this World War I legend also used as a tool to encourage young people to join the Marine Corps today. There's even an old recruiting poster that was created by artist Charles B. Falls around 1918. Emblazoned with the words "Teufel Hunden, German Nickname for U.S. Marines - Devil Dog Recruiting Station," the poster is one of the earliest known references to the legend, said to have come about as the result of fierce fighting in 1918 by the Marines in France's Belleau Wood (Bois Belleau in French, "woods of beautful water"). But the poster commits the same error that almost all versions of the legend do: it gets the German wrong.

The first thing any good student of German should notice about the poster is that the German word for "Devil Dogs" is misspelled. In German the term would not be two words, but one. The plural of Hund is Hunde, not "Hunden." So the poster and any Marine references to the German nickname should read Teufelshunde—one word with a connecting s. Most of the references I have found on the Web have the German incorrect in one way or another. Even the Marine Corps' own Parris Island Museum has it wrong. Since the museum's founding in 1975, the sign on display there has read "Teuelhunden" rather than the correct "Teufelshunde."

Facts like these make you wonder if the story itself is true. Like many things on the Web and in history, this legend gets repeated over and over by many different people. But like many other things on the Web and in history, that doesn't mean it's true. One thing we can state with certainty is that very few accounts of this German "Devil Dogs" legend get the German right. Almost always the German in the legend fails to follow the rules of German (capitalized nouns, compounds written as one word), so the writers are not even bothering to check if the German is accurate. (This includes CBSNews.com!) Sometimes the German word is written "Teufelhunden" or "Teufelhunde"—closer but still not quite right.

Pronunciation: der Teufel dare TOY-fel (devil), der Hund dare HOONT (dog),
die Teufelshunde dee TOY-fels-HOON-duh

But the Devil Dogs legend is very specific in some ways. It is related to a particular battle, a particular regiment, and a particular place.

Château-Thierry and Belleau Wood
Here is a version of the legend's creation found at a Marine recruiting Web site: "...in World War I during the 1918 Château-Thierry campaign near the French village of Bouresches, Marines assaulted a line of German machine-gun nests on an old hunting preserve known as Belleau Wood. The fighting was terrible. Those Marines who weren't cut down by the enemy guns captured the nests in a grisly close-quarters battle. The shocked Germans nicknamed their foes, teufelhunden [sic] (devil dogs)."

Another site mentions the regiments: "...the Fifth and Sixth Regiments of Marines earned the nickname of Teufel Hund [sic], or Devil Dog, by the Germans who respected them for their bulldog tenacity and fighting spirit..."

The Marine.com site adds this: "The tradition was believed to have its roots during World War I when German soldiers referred to the Marines as "devil dogs," comparing their fierce fighting ability to that of wild mountain dogs of Bavarian folklore." No one questions the valor of the Marines in the First World War, but are the stories of how the legend came about based on fact?

A Bavarian Teufelshunde Legend?
Most German Web references to "Teufelshunde" are for computer games with a kind of hellhound beast called a Teufelshund in German, but it seems to be closer to Cerberus, the three-headed dog of Greek mythology who guarded the gates to Hades. I also found a German rock group called "Teufelshunde" and at least one lyric reference to a Teufelshund that ends with these lines: "Drum Mensch tu' recht und sei nicht schlecht; sonst holt der Teufelshund Dich in den Höllenschlund.“ ("So do right and don't be bad; otherwise the Devil Dog will drag you into the jaws of hell.") And the poem seems to be related to Bavaria's Chiemgau region around Bavaria's Chiemsee. Another Sage is called "Der Teufelshund in der Sandwiese." But did the Devil Dogs legend actually came about because German soldiers compared the Marines to "wild mountain dogs of Bavarian folklore"?

H.L. Mencken & Floyd Gibbons
The American writer H.L. Mencken didn't think so. In The American Language (1921) Mencken commments on the Teufelshunde term in a footnote: "This is army slang, but promises to survive. The Germans, during the war, had no opprobrious nicknames for their foes. The French were usually simply die Franzosen, the English were die Engländer, and so on, even when most violently abused. Even der Yankee was rare. Teufelhunde (devil-dogs), for the American marines, was invented by an American correspondent; the Germans never used it. Cf. Wie der Feldgraue spricht, by Karl Borgmann [sic, actually Bergmann]; Giessen, 1916, p. 23." The correspondent that Mencken referred to was journalist Floyd Phillips Gibbons (1887-1939) of the Chicago Tribune. Gibbons, a war correspondent "imbedded" with the Marines (as we would say today), had his eye shot out while covering the battle at Belleau Wood and lived to tell the tale. He also wrote several books about World War I, including And They Thought We Wouldn't Fight (1918, George H. Doran Company, New York) and a biography of the flying Red Baron.

So did Gibbons embellish his reporting with a made-up Devil Dogs legend, or was he reporting actual facts? Did the Germans truly come up with the term Teufelshunde for the Marines? Not all the American versions of who first used the German word agree with each other. One account claims that the term "originated from a statement attributed to the German High Command, in remarking on the determinedness of the Marines, to the effect of 'Wer sind diese Teufelshunde?', which means 'Who are these Devil Dogs?'" Another version claims that it was a German pilot (perhaps the Red Baron?) who cursed the Marines with the word "Teufelshunde." Was Gibbons aware of this? If so, how? Or did he invent the tale and put it into one of his dispatches from the front in France? So far I have been unable to find any German reference to Teufelshunde in connection with the Marines. Not a single one. I also have not been able to look at the archives of the Chicago Tribune to see the actual news article in which Gibbons is alleged to have first mentioned the "Teufelshunde" tale. (The 1918 editions do not seem to be available online. Can someone in Chicago help?)

Floyd Gibbons was known to be a flamboyant character. We also know that his biography of Baron von Richthofen, the so-called Red Baron, was not entirely accurate, making him appear to be a totally reprehensible, blood-thirsty aviator, rather than the more complex person portrayed in more recent biographies. That's to be expected, as Gibbons was no doubt influenced by the anti-German sentiments of the time, his own brutal war experiences, and his well-known "friendship and admiration for the U.S. Marines." But did such considerations also lead him to put words in the Germans' mouths and "create" a legend about his beloved Marines? There is certainly no proof that he did, but there is also no record from any German source (that I know of) indicating the use of the German word Teufelshunde as a sobriquet for the U.S. Marines.

There's yet another factor that could cast doubt on the origin of the Devil Dogs legend. The Marines were not the only troops involved in combat in France's Belleau Wood in 1918. In fact there was an intense rivalry between the regular U.S. Army troops and the Marines stationed in France during the War to End All Wars. From the interesting "Belleau Fountain Legend" page at the equally fascinating Scuttlebutt & Small Chow site comes this information: "Though the Marines took Belleau Wood in late June 1918, Belleau itself was captured not by the Marine Brigade, but by the [Army's] 26th Division some three weeks later, by which time the Marines were fighting and dying at Soissons. How and when the 'bulldog fountain' actually entered into the mythology of the Corps remains something of a mystery." And how would the Germans have known it was the Marines in particular who deserved the "Devil Dogs" nickname rather than the many other Army troops who were fighting in the same area?

General John ("Black Jack") Pershing, the commander of the American Expeditionary Forces, was known to be upset about the Marines getting all the publicity—mostly from Gibbons' dispatches—during the battle of Belleau Wood. (Pershing's counterpart was the German General Erich Ludendorff.) Pershing had a strict policy that no specific units were to be mentioned in reporting on the war. But Gibbons' dispatches glorifying the Marines had been released without any of the usual Army censorship. This may have happened because of sympathy for the reporter who was thought to be fatally wounded at the time his reports were to be sent off. Gibbons "had handed his earlier dispatches to a friend prior to his jumping off in the attack." ("Floyd Gibbons in the Belleau Woods" by Dick Culver)

Another account at FirstWorldWar.com adds this: "Fiercely defended by the Germans, the wood was first taken by the Marines (and Third Infantry Brigade), then ceded back to the Germans—and again taken by the U.S. forces a total of six times before the Germans were finally expelled." Another source mentions this key fact: "After Belleau Wood... there were even more vicious battles between the Army and the Marine Corps over the sometime outlandish media coverage the Marines received concerning the great victories in Europe." (from a review of At Belleau Wood by Robert B. Asprey, University of North Texas Press, 1996) The Marines certainly did play a vital role in this battle—part of the offensive known as the Kaiserschlacht or "Kaiser's Battle" in German—but not the only one. The fighting in the Bois Belleau lasted from 6-26 June 1918. The Marines' role was essential enough that the woods were later renamed Bois de la Brigade de Marine, in honour of the Marine Corps' tenacity in its re-taking. The campaign at Château-Thierry and Belleau Wood is considered a key turning point that ended the German effort to take Paris, but the war would drag on until November 1918.

To prove that Gibbons did not just invent a good story, we need to find some record of the German term actually being used in Europe, either in a German newspaper (unlikely for homefront morale reasons) or in official documents, the "written reports" in which some accounts claim the German commanders referred to the "Devil Dogs." (It would also be important to see Gibbons' Chicago Tribune reports.) Or did any of the German soldiers use the term in the pages of a diary? It would also be helpful to find a copy of Karl Bergmann's Wie der Feldgraue spricht. Scherz und Ernst in der neuesten Soldatensprache (How the Soldier Talks. The Light and the Serious in the Most Current Soldiers' Language), which covers the topic of German soldier slang in the Great War. (I have ordered a copy; it is not an easy book to find.) However, there is a good article on WWI soldier slang at FirstWorldWar.com that refers to the Bergmann book and another by Otto Mauser (Deutsche Soldatensprache: Ihre Aufbau und ihre Probleme, 1917, Strassburg.)

Let me stress that there can be no doubt about how valiantly the Marines fought at Belleau Wood or anywhere else during WWI. That isn't in question. The question is only about the authenticity of how the Devil Dog legend arose. It may be that the Germans actually did label the Marines Teufelshunde. But if they did, we need to find some German reference to it in some primary sources. Otherwise this almost 100-year-old legend will continue to fall into the category of tales that people keep repeating without any research to back them up. So the "Teufelshunde" legend remains in limbo for now, neither proved to be true nor untrue. If any reader can add any helpful information, please contact me.

“Personnel must be called excellent. Spirit of troops is high. Moral effect of our fire does not materially check the advance of the infantry. Nerves of the Americans are still unshaken.” - German General Erich Ludendorff, about the American Expeditionary Forces in 1918 (quoted in World War I by S.L.A. Marshall)

Source: http://german.about.com/od/culture/a/germyth13.htm [i]...visit for additional links and pics


Greetz
Plage

helomech
01-07-2009, 12:01 AM
It doesn't matter now;it's firmly placed in Marine Corps culture and history,the Corps is still badass

Semper Fi,Devildog

Kitsune
01-07-2009, 12:35 AM
Very interesting article, thanks. I was intrigued because of this Devilsdog legend and had myself tried to find any confirmation whatsoever from the German side that soldiers indeed used to call US Marines like that - with none forthcoming.

T.S.C.Plage
01-07-2009, 12:46 AM
For me the question the first time came up as I saw the first "Teufel Hunden" t-shirt. So far I thought it was just a wrong translation and didn't knew much about were it came from and the background. As said I thought it may be of interest. It wasn't ment to disrespect the Marines at all. But to be honest if I'll use something translated from an other language I'd make sure it's spelled right and if I already got it wrong I would correct it...especially if it's that kind of important.

Vandervahn
01-07-2009, 01:11 AM
Interesting example of legend building. That "Teufel Hunden" phrase was always suspect, covering 3 (actually 4) mistakes in one word. Well, whatever keeps morale high - funny it is still perpetuated a century later.

El Diablo Rojo
01-07-2009, 04:54 AM
Maybe Marines back then couldn't spell in languages they didn't speak?

Ritual
01-07-2009, 07:42 AM
What, they still draw stick figures on cave walls and eat rocks. p-)

<3 Devildogs.

RSone
01-07-2009, 10:39 AM
On a related note:

During the battle for Rotterdam in the Second World War, a Royal Dutch Marine Corps detachement held back a numerically superior german(Wiki says Fallschirmjäger) force for several days. When they finally surrendered to the Germans and came out. The commander was surprised to see there were only a few men,in their black uniforms,where he had expected a full batallion of troops. He ordered his men to salute them out of respect for their bravery and determination and labelled them "Schwarzen Teufeln" or Black Devils..

Similar story, isn't it?

stonecutter
01-07-2009, 10:45 AM
On a related note:

During the battle for Rotterdam in the Second World War, a Royal Dutch Marine Corps detachement held back a numerically superior german(Wiki says Fallschirmjäger) force for several days. When they finally surrendered to the Germans and came out. The commander was surprised to see there were only a few men,in their black uniforms,where he had expected a full batallion of troops. He ordered his men to salute them out of respect for their bravery and determination and labelled them "Schwarzen Teufeln" or Black Devils..

Similar story, isn't it?

Here's another -- the French Chasseurs Alpins were called the Blue Devils by the Germans in the First World War... Would be interesting to confirm this one as well.

edit: nevermind, this moniker was homegrown.

el borracho
01-07-2009, 02:28 PM
I read another version of the story on the Marine detachment's website at my old post. It was more outrageous, saying something like "During WWI the Germans were terrified of the US Marines, which they regarded as the fiercest fighters in the world..." :roll: I respect the USMC spirit, but sometimes these legends get out of hand.

tluassa
01-07-2009, 02:33 PM
It would send a whole German Army to the ground laughing to see the US Marines carry a sign with the word "Teufel hunden" on them ^^

Dave76
01-07-2009, 02:38 PM
On a related note:

During the battle for Rotterdam in the Second World War, a Royal Dutch Marine Corps detachement held back a numerically superior german(Wiki says Fallschirmjäger) force for several days. When they finally surrendered to the Germans and came out. The commander was surprised to see there were only a few men,in their black uniforms,where he had expected a full batallion of troops. He ordered his men to salute them out of respect for their bravery and determination and labelled them "Schwarzen Teufeln" or Black Devils..

Similar story, isn't it?
Interesting. Got a source for that?
By the way, same mistake again: The German commander would have called them Schwarze Teufel (or Die Schwarzen Teufel)but surely not "Schwarzen Teufeln"... ;-)

HollywoodMarine
01-07-2009, 02:48 PM
I found this a while back. It depicts WWI era, and present era Marines.



Our Marine Corps mascot. A far cry from a Devil Dog. ;)

RSone
01-07-2009, 02:57 PM
Interesting. Got a source for that?
By the way, same mistake again: The German commander would have called them Schwarze Teufel (or Die Schwarzen Teufel)but surely not "Schwarzen Teufeln"... ;-)

Crap, I thought it was that, but some voice in the back of my head, said: check it out. So i did. Typed in Schwarzen Teufeln in Google, and got a crapload of German sites, so i figured it was the correct spelling.:roll:

johanness
01-07-2009, 03:22 PM
In the German language you would never say "Teufeln Hunden":

First : a phrase like that didn't exist

Second : to call somebody a dog, even a "Teufelshund", is rarely a compliment.

If you want to speak about fury, you would use the term "Höllenhund" (hell dog),
but this would be more used for describing a mess.

HOLLiS
01-07-2009, 05:15 PM
My understanding this may has something to do with the Mastiff or Dogue de Bordeaux.

Breakfast in Vegas
01-07-2009, 05:25 PM
Teufelshund could be seen as a compliment in that context IMO, just as Teufelskerl is a bad ass dude.

Devil dude, LOL.

Awatron
01-07-2009, 05:27 PM
Interesting story. But why is it (almost) always, that americans write weird things in foreign languages? Just look at all this wannabe russian in the movies. Or german... C'mon, you do have dictionaries, I know that!

It's like beeing Maximus and cry: Roma victor! And all the legionaries go: WTF?!

@Breakfast: Devil Dude! A new super hero is born.

California Joe
01-07-2009, 05:31 PM
These kinds of things are amorphous at best and rarely well documented.

They are usually third hand accounts from a guy who heard another guy...

The greatest compliment an enemy could issue, would be to pay homage to their opponents tenacity or ferocity in battle etc. In turn, your own greatness is assured because of the quality of your enemy...Example, the British Grenadier Guards for actions at Waterloo etc...

All it would take was a passing comment from a pissed off captured German officer for it to get spread around and embellished. Surely there was never any official announcement by the German high command...Like the Stonewall Jackson legend. Supposedly it was coined by Bernard Bee and greatly aided in the rout of the Union Army at the first battle of Bull Run...In the heat of battle that pronouncement to rally behind Jackson and the Virginians would have been heard by like 20 people...and yet it became a legend.

As far as getting the correct German language translation right. That should be corrected. But it's not like most Marines will pronounce it correctly anyway. :)

California Joe
01-07-2009, 05:42 PM
As an example...After the battle...

1st Marine: Hey Charlie, that German asshole over there call me a TeufelHundSomething, does that mean what I think it means?

2nd Marine: I think it means that you, do...um...you know...with your Mom...

1st Marine: I'm gonna shoot him...

3rd Marine: Nah, my German is rusty but I think he just called you something like a "Devil Dog"

1st Marine: Heh, I like that...I'ma tell the First Sergeant....

2nd Marine: F*ck yeah (plays air guitar) OK I made that part up....

Breakfast in Vegas
01-07-2009, 05:44 PM
As an example...After the battle...

1st Marine: Hey Charlie, that German asshole over there call me a TeufelHund something, does that mean what I think it means?

2nd Marine: I think it means that you, do...um...you know...with your Mom...

1st Marine: I'm gonna shoot him...

3rd Marine: Nah, my German is rusty but I think he just called you something like a "Devil Dog"

1st Marine: Heh, I like that...I'ma tell the First Sergeant....

2nd Marine: F*ck yeah (plays air guitar) OK I made that part up....Teufelshundeluftgitarrenhelden.

A legend is born, but the Jarheads will never be able to spell it. That's Jarhead with a capital J. Semper fi.

California Joe
01-07-2009, 05:51 PM
Maybe the Germans were yelling "Flaming Poodles" at them.

HOLLiS
01-07-2009, 06:08 PM
Maybe the Germans were yelling "Flaming Poodles" at them.


I am glad that one never caught on.


Pvt, "Mein Kaptain, das flaming poodles are attacking."

Kaptain, "Let loose the puddy cats of hell."


The landscape of war would have been forever changed.


WWII, Flaming Poodles at Guadalcanal, repulses Japanese laughter attack.

California Joe
01-07-2009, 06:12 PM
Makes it much harder to recruit also. :)

HOLLiS
01-07-2009, 06:14 PM
Makes it much harder to recruit also. :)


No kidding, especially with the new recruit hair cut, the poodle cut.

T.S.C.Plage
01-07-2009, 06:32 PM
I say CJ's version is the most authentic one. It would also explain the translation bug. Now get it right and print new t-shirts. ;)

HollywoodMarine
01-07-2009, 07:33 PM
I am glad that one never caught on.


Pvt, "Mein Kaptain, das flaming poodles are attacking."

Kaptain, "Let loose the puddy cats of hell."


The landscape of war would have been forever changed.


WWII, Flaming Poodles at Guadalcanal, repulses Japanese laughter attack.
Holy crap! That had me rolling with laughter.

California Joe
01-07-2009, 07:34 PM
I guarandamnedtee you that it happened somewhat like that. All it would have taken is some mention of it around a reporter and you now have a sexy headline for a war correspondence article. The Marines definitely understand PR.

Seriously, somehow, somewhere along that battle line that phrase was uttered and someone mistranslated it and it became part of the history of the Corps. And it's not as if they haven't earned it. But they should fix the German if it's going to be merchandised.

Macs.
01-07-2009, 07:39 PM
Like that guy with the Knopfjäger M4.

And Knopfjäger simply is hilarious.

California Joe
01-07-2009, 07:41 PM
Exactly my little Knopf.

HollywoodMarine
01-07-2009, 07:53 PM
But they should fix the German if it's going to be merchandised.
It has been tried.

Back in 2005, I was on a NATO exercise (BALTOPS-05) in Denmark. Working with German paratroopers, I asked a Stabsfeldwebel if the spelling was correct on my black USMC t-shirt (logo is posted below). One look and he says, "It's spelled wrong."

Returning to the States, I called the company that produced the t-shirt, explaining of the misspelling. They said that they had received the same complains from others, but that they would remain with the product as is. My reply, "You stupid fu(kers!"

johanness
01-07-2009, 08:04 PM
And Knopfjäger simply is hilarious.

yep,true....Knopfjäger wins it all

Kopf (head) jäger (hunter)=headhunter (cannibalismus)
Knopf (knob) jäger = Knobhunter

I couldn't think of a better name for MP.net(if you are a mod)

so, congrats

matsalleh18
01-07-2009, 08:15 PM
hey, is 1st Force Recon are special forces?

HollywoodMarine
01-07-2009, 08:21 PM
hey, is 1st Force Recon are special forces?
No they aren't. They are just Marines with an above average PFT score, and swimming capability.

Midav
01-07-2009, 08:22 PM
hey, is 1st Force Recon are special forces?

M4 > Steyr Aug

'Nuff said





I keeed I keeeed

;)

Macs.
01-07-2009, 08:23 PM
Who was phone ?

Midav
01-07-2009, 08:27 PM
He'd your mom

johanness
01-07-2009, 08:28 PM
Who was phone ?

RUF MICH AN !!!

Sorry, lost the number .. and couldn't add a pic

T.S.C.Plage
01-07-2009, 08:33 PM
I'll will report you all for derailing this thread you Flamming Poodles!

Midav
01-07-2009, 08:40 PM
I'll will report you all for derailing this thread you Flamming Poodles!

Beiss mich, Mistkaefer!

Partial_Panel
01-08-2009, 12:25 AM
Somehow I just can't picture the ol' Duke, standing on the sands of Iwo Jima, bellowing:
"Come on, ya Flaming Poodles, ya wanna live forever? Let's take this hill!!"

Perhaps the best backhanded compliment I ever heard, was from an Air Force girl in N.C., back in the 80's:
"You Marines are so crude. I mean, you're like the Klingons of the US armed forces."
Cool. Just replace the Devil Dog with a picture of Worf, and you have mass-market appeal.

Winger
01-08-2009, 11:01 AM
Maybe Marines back then couldn't spell in languages they didn't speak?

Even Germans back then couldn't spell as well. Spelling in those days wasn't as sanctimonious or closely followed as it is today. It was commong for people to turn a blind eye to mispellings.

rchad
01-08-2009, 07:19 PM
Sacriledge! Sacriledge!

You bunch of pencil dick, commie, Mo#$%%F@#ckers!

We're the Devil Dogs!

Seriously though, the way we were taught, if I remember correctly, was that a diary or letter was recovered from a dead german soldier (RIP) with the term in it.

One poster wrote below about a German encounter with US Marines in WWII? The Marines didn't fight in any areas where the Germans were in WWII. Maybe as observers during the Normandy landings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_Dog

Walter Sobchak
01-08-2009, 10:20 PM
Germans must have this whole devil thing going on. It was in Italy that some anonymous German officer wrote in his diary about the 82nd Airborne Paratroopers, calling them "Devils in baggy pants".

And then there was Field Marshall Mannteufel...

HollywoodMarine
01-09-2009, 01:16 AM
Sacriledge! Sacriledge!
One poster wrote below about a German encounter with US Marines in WWII? The Marines didn't fight in any areas where the Germans were in WWII. Maybe as observers during the Normandy landings.
US Marines did more then that.

Colonel Peter J. Ortiz, USMC

Col. Peter Ortiz (August 5, 1913-May 13, 1988) born in New York City, was one of the most decorated Marine officers of World War II. He served in both Africa and Europe throughout the war, as a member of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS).

Ortiz, who had been promoted to the rank of Major, returned to France on 1 August 1944, the head of a mission entitled UNION II. This was a new type of OSS mission, an Operational Group. These were heavily armed contingents which were tasked with direct action against the Germans. They were not only to conduct sabotage, but also were to seize key installations to prevent retreating German units from destroying them. Team members were always in uniform. Accompanying Ortiz on this mission were Air Corps Capt. Francis Coolidge, GySgt. Robert La Salle, Sgt's Charles Perry, John P. Bodnar, Frederick J. Brunner, and Jack R. Risler, all US Marines, and a Free French officer, Joseph Arcelin, who carried false papers identifying him as a Marine.

This was a daylight drop near the town of les Saises in the Haute Savoie region. In addition to the team, a large supply of weapons and ammunition and other supplies in 864 containers for the French Bulle Battalion operating in the region were also dropped. The mission began badly, for Perry’s steel parachute cable snapped, and he was dead in the drop zone. His comrades buried him with military honors.

During the week after they arrived in France, UNION II instructed the members of the Bulle Battalion on the functioning and maintenance of the new weapons they had just received. Then they began a series of patrols in order to link up with other resistance groups believed to be operating in the area. In an activity report, Brunner later stated:

"On 14 August we proceeded to Beaufort where we made contact with other F.F.I. [Forces Francaises de l’iInterieur] companies and from there went on to Montgirod where we were told there were heavy concentrations of Germans. We were able to enter the town but had no sooner done so than we were heavily shelled by German batteries located in the hills around the city. We were forced to retire and hid out in the mountains near Montgirod with the Bulle Battalion. The Germans quickly surrounded the area."

Two days later, Ortiz and his group were surprised in the town of Centron by elements of the 157th Alpine Reserve Division, consisting of 10-12 heavy trucks in which there were several hundred troops. The convoy was headed for the garrison of Bourg-St. Maurice, northeast of Centron. [Ironically, by 20 August, the Germans were in confused retreat after the Allied landing in Southern France on 15 August. Also ironically, the first American jeep entered Albertville, in the Haute Savoie, on 22 August.] The surprise was mutual. Spotting the Americans, the trucks screeched to a halt and soldiers tumbled out and began firing. Brunner later recalled:

"Major Ortiz, Sgt's Bodnar and Risler withdrew into the southwest section of the town. Captain Coolidge, ‘Jo-Jo’ [the French member of the team] and I took the southeast. We retaliated as best we could, working our way under fire toward the east. I called out to ‘Jo-Jo’ to follow us but he remained in the town. At this time, Capt. Coolidge received a bullet in the right leg but he kept going. By then we had reached the bank of the Isere. I dived in and swam across under fire. I had some difficulty as the current was very swift. It was then that I became separated from Coolidge and did not see him again until we met ... on 18 August [at the location of another resistance group]."

Ortiz, Risler, and Bodnar were receiving the bulk of the German fire. As they retreated from house to house in Centron, French civilians implored them to give up in order to avoid reprisals. Ortiz ordered the two sergeants to get out while they could, but neither would go without him. Ortiz recognized that if he and his men shot their way out of the entrapment, local villagers would undoubtedly suffer for Germans deaths which a firefight surely would have produced. He knew of the massacre at Vassieux and the destruction of the town of Oradur-sur-Glane and all of its inhabitants. In his after-action report given after his liberation from a POW camp, Ortiz stated:

"Since the activities of Mission Union and its previous work were well know to the Gestapo, there was no reason to hope that we would be treated as ordinary prisoners of war. For me personally the decision to surrender was not too difficult. I had been involved in dangerous activities for many years and was mentally prepared for my number to turn up. Sergeant Bodnar was next to me and I explained the situation to him and what I intended to do. He looked me in the eye and replied, ‘Major, we are Marines, what you think is right goes for me too.’"

Ortiz began shouting to the Germans in an attempt to surrender. When a brief lull ensued, he stepped forward and calmly walked toward the Germans as machine gun bullets kicked up dust around him. Finally the firing stopped, and Ortiz was able to speak to the German officer in command. The major agreed to accept the surrender of the Americans and not harm the townspeople. When only two more Marines appeared, the major became suspicious and demanded to know where the rest of his enemy were. After a search of the town, the Germans accepted the fact that only three men had held off a battalion.

Bodnar and Risler were quickly disarmed and Ortiz called them to attention, and directed that they give only their names, ranks, and serial numbers as required by the Geneva Convention’s terms relating to the treatment of prisoners of war. This greatly impressed the Germans, who began treating them all with marked respect.

Ortiz's decorations included two Navy Crosses, the Legion of Merit, the Order of the British Empire, and five Croix de Guerre. He also was made a Chevalier of the Légion d'honneur by the French.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/pjortiz.htm

Royal
01-09-2009, 06:05 AM
The Marines didn't fight in any areas where the Germans were in WWII.

Col Ortiz was by no means the only USMC member to serve in Europe with OSS and the Jedburghs. IIRC there we also some US Marines involved in latter stages of of the North African campaign.

Connaught Ranger
01-09-2009, 06:26 AM
Sacriledge! Sacriledge!
The Marines didn't fight in any areas where the Germans were in WWII. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_Dog

I believe U.S. Marines would have been stationed on some of the larger U.S. ships (as security) involved in the D-Day landings, although there is no evidence of any Marines landing and fighting on the beaches during D-Day, this in itself would put the U.S. Marines in areas subject to German artillery and air attack in WW2.

Connaught Ranger.

toki
01-09-2009, 07:58 AM
Even Germans back then couldn't spell as well. Spelling in those days wasn't as sanctimonious or closely followed as it is today. It was commong for people to turn a blind eye to mispellings.

Actually "Teufel hunden" isn't a simple misspelling, even saying it without writing it down makes little sense.

And Germans back then could spell better than Germans nowadays. Even the most backwards village school seemed to hold a strict regime with writing. You can also see it with letters of that time. It was seen as very important.

Saying that i'm not bothered by foreigners getting a German word wrong.

Connaught Ranger
01-09-2009, 08:11 AM
Actually "Teufel hunden" isn't a simple misspelling, even saying it without writing it down makes little sense.

And Germans back then could spell better than Germans nowadays. Even the most backwards village school seemed to hold a strict regime with writing. You can also see it with letters of that time. It was seen as very important.

Saying that i'm not bothered by foreigners getting a German word wrong.

Hallo Toki,:)

I agree with the above, education was very strict in most European countries, the difference between getting a good job and a chance to better one selves (not like now, with the morons who can barely write in text speak!), also was the script and form of the German language back then in the 1900's not a different form "Sutterlinn" (?sp) Hochdeutsche?

Connaught Ranger.

toki
01-09-2009, 08:32 AM
Hallo Toki,:)

I agree with the above, education was very strict in most European countries, the difference between getting a good job and a chance to better one selves (not like now, with the morons who can barely write in text speak!), also was the script and form of the German language back then in the 1900's not a different form "Sutterlinn" (?sp) Hochdeutsche?

Connaught Ranger.
Sütterlin is a form of handwriting, hochdeutsch is the language itself (modern standard German).
Sütterlin was introduced by the prussians. Though i think the Nazis banned it some day. It came back in the fifties, but vanished again and was replaced by a different standard handwriting. The teaching of handwriting changed rather often.
I remember that in elementay school in the eighties (the one after Kindergarten) my brother suddenly learned the letters different than i did, just 2 years earlier.

Sütterlin


That's how i learned it (first row):
I think every second row is Sütterlin, to comapre it to the latin/german standard handwriting type above.

5./FjgBtl610
01-09-2009, 10:57 AM
Sütterlin ...
All correct.
My 2ct for the topic is that terms like Teufelskerl, Höllenhund, Teufelshund aren´t disrespectful meant although using "Hund" is quite rare in German.
Maybe "Windhund" but thats another thing :).
As a matter of fact I never heard the term Teufelshund for US marines from any WWII veteran at all.
Only term I know of is "Ledernacken" (leathernecks), which was indeed used
for example by my mother who worked after war for the British Military Government in Flensburg as a translator.
Frank

tluassa
01-09-2009, 11:58 AM
I was born in 1985 and learned the "old" writing called "Schreibschrift" (literally: Writing scripture) - my brother, born 1990 learned the "vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift" (literally: no idea how to translate this crap ... "easier basic scripture") or something.

Vandervahn
01-09-2009, 01:13 PM
All correct.
...
As a matter of fact I never heard the term Teufelshund for US marines from any WWII veteran at all. ...

Thats because the word just can´t exist, it makes no sense. Now "Höllenhund" is a different case, but Teufelshund is a combination of two words that dont work semantically.

big_les
01-09-2009, 04:57 PM
These nicknames are often either misintepretations by fighting men (understandable) or wholesale press inventions (perhaps with PR officer assistance!). Hate to say it, but The Ladies From Hell is probably one of them (article includes mention of Devil Dogs);

http://bshistorian.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/the-ladies-from-hell/

In many ways, it's just as important and interesting what your own side chooses to nickname its noteworthy military units.

Walter Sobchak
01-09-2009, 08:37 PM
I believe U.S. Marines would have been stationed on some of the larger U.S. ships (as security) involved in the D-Day landings, although there is no evidence of any Marines landing and fighting on the beaches during D-Day, this in itself would put the U.S. Marines in areas subject to German artillery and air attack in WW2.

Connaught Ranger.

The Marines also occupied Iceland at the request of Churchill in, I believe, July of 1941.

Also, I think everything from a light cruiser on up had a contingent of Marines aboard. Maybe the smaller ones did, as well.

Linedoggie
01-09-2009, 09:18 PM
I believe U.S. Marines would have been stationed on some of the larger U.S. ships (as security) involved in the D-Day landings, although there is no evidence of any Marines landing and fighting on the beaches during D-Day, this in itself would put the U.S. Marines in areas subject to German artillery and air attack in WW2.

Connaught Ranger.

Close, 1 US Marine landed at Normandy on D-Day

Col. James E. Kerr, USMC of Admiral Moons Staff Landed from PC-484 at Utah beach at 1015 hrs to evaluate the landing. Kerr had taken part in the Torch landings as well.

Kerr was the training officer for "Commander, Landing Craft and Bases, Eleventh Amphibious Force, Europe"

There was a "WARNO" for the USS Texas Marine detachment to get ready to reinforce the Rangers at Pointe du Hoc but was cancelled at the last minute. The Marines were not enthused at the prospect, as they had little training since bootcamp in infantry tactics(they were Gun Crews mostly) and still had Obsolete Reising guns in their armament.

You can see pictures of them taking German POWs aboard later that day. A shavetail is handing the POW's ear plugs in the pics.

However there were US Marines in France on D-Day, they were seconded to the OSS.

rchad
01-09-2009, 11:44 PM
I believe U.S. Marines would have been stationed on some of the larger U.S. ships (as security) involved in the D-Day landings, although there is no evidence of any Marines landing and fighting on the beaches during D-Day, this in itself would put the U.S. Marines in areas subject to German artillery and air attack in WW2.

Connaught Ranger.

I only meant that there were no large scale engagements. The Marines stationed aboard ships are called "Sea Duty" Marines. I just returned from the National Museum of the Marine Corps and highly recommend dining out at the Globe and Laurel restuarant if you visit. I'm very familiar with Marine Corps history.

My best friend in the Corps had a father who served as a Sea Duty Marine. His father, an officer, went on to author a book on Marine uniforms and the proper display of rank, badges, ribbons, etc. etc. My best friend's picture, we were both enlisted, is a few pages inside the front cover.

http://usmcshop.grunt.com/Products/Marines/PID-BK336.aspx

Also, an interesting side note: The Marines used to have a youth organization called the "Devil Pups" but the politically correct crowd got upset and now they are called the "Young Marines."

And thanks for the contributions from all of you, I've learned alot. I continue to be impressed by the sophistication of the MP.net members.

CPL Trevoga
01-10-2009, 06:10 PM
I think the dude who started this thread is a communist, hellbend on destroying a muscot of my beloved Corps.

My hunch and German members can correct me if I'm wrong, is that in Germany in the early 20th century it was more of a curse, because Germans tend to call everybody they fight devil-something.

I mean, guys fighting in Falluja in 2004 did not call Islamists, "devil ragheads." The names they used were most likely derogatory.

T.S.C.Plage
01-10-2009, 07:15 PM
If I'm a Communist the Pope is Muslim! I was just wondering where the wrong spelling came from. This was a quite good source with good explainations I stumbled over and thought it's worth posting it. I'm sorry if it has hurt your sense of honor!

As said, if you call somebody a "what ever" dog in German it's not ment in a nice way and not with respect.

Btw, there's another thing. The English language also knows the word hound for the German word "Hund". Is it so uncommon in use that this would have been translated to dog in American English? Or does "Devil Dog" just sound better then "Devil Hound"?

Awatron
01-10-2009, 07:26 PM
Hm, hound is not the same as the german word "Hund".

It is sometimes used in the meaning of dog but it denotes a special kind of dogs, afaik. In german it would be "Jahdhund" oder "Bracke" to be more specifically. So, dog is the wider term.

(Though hound is realted to the german word, english is a germanic language still.)

HOLLiS
01-10-2009, 07:44 PM
To throw curve in,

Calling Germans Hun(D) means? It is amazing that in the last 200 years that recording history has been going on, we just do not know.

So, what does it all matter?

Indiana Jones
01-10-2009, 08:02 PM
To throw curve in,

Calling Germans Hun(D) means? It is amazing that in the last 200 years that recording history has been going on, we just do not know.

So, what does it all matter?
Oh, I`d say we know that rather well, provided I understand you correctly.

This particular habit dates back to the aftermath of the Boxer uprising in reference to the notorious "Hunnenrede"- which in todays parlance would perhaps be denoted as a "prep-speech"- given by Wilhelm II. to the departing German expeditionary contingent. Back then, the Huns enjoyed a fairly spotty reputation, and during the war, Allied propaganda was quick to capitalise on the matter.

rchad
01-10-2009, 09:17 PM
If I'm a Communist the Pope is Muslim! I was just wondering where the wrong spelling came from. This was a quite good source with good explainations I stumbled over and thought it's worth posting it. I'm sorry if it has hurt your sense of honor!

As said, if you call somebody a "what ever" dog in German it's not ment in a nice way and not with respect.

Btw, there's another thing. The English language also knows the word hound for the German word "Hund". Is it so uncommon in use that this would have been translated to dog in American English? Or does "Devil Dog" just sound better then "Devil Hound"?

I think several of us Marines are just using a sense of humor to express our indignation. We do tend to be particularly proud of our history. It has been interesting and I appreciate your interest in the subject. Thanks!

You are correct about the Hound-Dog theory.

Pardon me, I have to go kill that terrorist Pope now. (HUMOR!!!)

nemowork
01-10-2009, 10:41 PM
To throw curve in,

Calling Germans Hun(D) means? It is amazing that in the last 200 years that recording history has been going on, we just do not know.

So, what does it all matter?
It may be as much of a legend as the devil dogs, devils in skirts and red devils stories but the legend as i understand it goes that the Germans missed out on the main fighting in the Boxer uprising in China and the Kaiser wanted his men to excel in the mopping up operation afterwards (while the major European powers had basically pinched everything not nailed down and left them to the unglamorous work) and made possibly one of the worst speeches in human history exhorting his men to punish the Chinese so they wouldnt dare harm Europeans again and 'meet him and beat him! Give him no quarter! Take no prisoners! kill him when he falls into your hands! Even as a thousand years ago the Huns under King Attila made a name for themselves as till resounds in legends and fablesso may the name of Germans resound through Chinese history a thousand years from now'. Naturally nobody let the Germans forget this propaganda gem!

benbach
01-12-2009, 02:51 AM
Devil Dogs rule, so what if they screwed up the spelling. It doesn't change the fact that we have an angry snake killing pitbull that we let out of the cage to kick everyone's arse every once and a while.