Paper: Obama prepared to talk to Hamas.

[FlintHillBilly]

The incoming Obama administration is prepared to abandon George Bush's ­doctrine of isolating Hamas by establishing a channel to the Islamist organisation, sources close to the transition team say.

SOURCE:

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/08/barack-obama-gaza-hamas
(This website works when i copy and paste it into the URL box, but not when i click on it as a link)

So i may suck at posting a thread, go ahead, flame it all u want.. I appologize if this has been posted, but when i searched i did not find anything..


So what are you opinions on this? If this is true, is this a good move on Obama? Or no? Explain?

[Geezah]

Incoming administration will abandon Bush's isolation of Islamist group to initiate low-level diplomacy, say transition sources


The incoming Obama administration is prepared to abandon George Bush's *doctrine of isolating Hamas by establishing a channel to the Islamist organisation, sources close to the transition team say.

The move to open contacts with Hamas, which could be initiated through the US intelligence services, would represent a definitive break with the Bush *presidency's ostracising of the group. The state department has designated Hamas a terrorist organisation, and in 2006 *Congress passed a law banning US financial aid to the group.

The Guardian has spoken to three *people with knowledge of the discussions in the Obama camp. There is no talk of Obama approving direct diplomatic negotiations with Hamas early on, but he is being urged by advisers to initiate low-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive. A tested course would be to start *contacts through Hamas and the US intelligence services, similar to the secret process through which the US engaged with the PLO in the 1970s. Israel did not become aware of the contacts until much later.

A draft was agreed last night at the UN, calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire between Hamas and Israeli forces in Gaza, the head of the Arab League said. Amr Moussa said Arab countries want the security council to vote on the resolution. It was supported by the US, Israel's closest ally, and Arab countries with ties to Hamas.

Richard Haass, a diplomat under both Bush presidents who was named by a number of news organisations this week as Obama's choice for Middle East envoy, supports low-level contacts with Hamas provided there is a ceasefire in place and a Hamas-Fatah reconciliation emerges.

Another potential contender for a *foreign policy role in the Obama administration suggested that the president-elect would not be bound by the Bush doctrine of isolating Hamas.

"This is going to be an administration that is committed to negotiating with *critical parties on critical issues," the source said.

There are a number of options that would avoid a politically toxic scenario for Obama of seeming to give legitimacy to Hamas.

"Secret envoys, multilateral six-party talk-like approaches. The total isolation of Hamas that we promulgated under Bush is going to end," said Steve Clemons, the director of the American Strategy *Programme at the New America *Foundation. "You could do something through the Europeans. You could invent a structure that is multilateral. It is going to be hard for the neocons to swallow," he said. "I think it is going to happen.

But one Middle East expert close to the transition team said: "It is highly unlikely that they will be public about it."

The two weeks since Israel began its military campaign against Gaza have heightened anticipation about how Obama intends to deal with the Middle East. He adopted a strongly pro-Israel position during the election campaign, as did his erstwhile opponent and choice for secretary of state, Hillary Clinton. But it is widely thought Obama would adopt a more even-handed approach once he is president.

His main priority now, in the remaining days before his inauguration, is to ensure the crisis does not rob him of the chance to set his own foreign policy agenda, rather than merely react to events.

"We will be perceived to be weak and feckless if we are perceived to be on the margins, unable to persuade the Israelis, unable to work with the international community to end this," said Aaron David Miller, a former state department adviser on the Middle East.

"Unless he is prepared to adopt a policy that is tougher, fairer and smarter than both of his predecessors you might as well hang a closed-for-the-season sign on any chance of America playing an effective role in defusing the current crisis or the broader crisis," he said.

Obama has defined himself in part by his willingness to talk to America's enemies. But the president-elect would be wary of being seen to give legitimacy to Hamas as a consequence of the war in Gaza.

Bruce Hoffman, a *counterterrorism expert at George*town University's school of foreign *service, said it was unlikely that Obama would move to initiate contacts with Hamas unless the radical faction in Damascus was crippled by the conflict in Gaza. "This would really be dependent on Hamas's military wing having suffered a real, almost decisive, drubbing."

Even with such caveats, there is *growing agreement, among Republicans as well as Democrats, on the need to engage Hamas to achieve a sustainable peace in the Middle East – even among Obama's close advisers. In an article published on Wednesday on the website Foreign Affairs, but apparently written before the fighting in Gaza, Haass, who is president of the Council on Foreign Relations, wrote: "If the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas continues to hold and a Hamas-PA reconciliation emerges, the Obama administration should deal with the joint Palestinian leadership and authorise low-level contact between US officials and Hamas in Gaza." The article was written with Martin Indyk, a former US ambassador to Israel and an adviser to Hillary Clinton.

Obama has said repeatedly that *restoring America's image in the world would rank among the top priorities of his administration, and there has been widespread praise for his choice of Clinton as secretary of state and Jim Jones, the former Marine Corps commandant, as his national security adviser.

He is expected to demonstrate that commitment to charting a new foreign policy within days when he is expected to name a roster of envoys to take charge of key foreign policy areas: Iran, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, India-Pakistan, and North Korea.

Obama has frustrated and confused those who had been looking for a more evenhanded approach to the Israeli-*Palestinian conflict by his refusal to make any substantive comment on Israel's *military campaign on Gaza, nearly two weeks on.

He said on Wednesday: "We cannot be sending a message to the world that there are two different administrations conducting foreign policy.

"Until I take office, it would be *imprudent of me to start sending out *signals that somehow we are running *foreign policy when I am not legally authorised to do so."

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/08/barack-obama-gaza-hamas)

..............

[philbob]

sounds like a good idea reward bad behaviour :roll:

[MJC9678]

yeaaaaah........this will end badly.

[Laworkerbee]

How is communication a bad thing? HAMAS is a reality that isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[gaijinsamurai]

How is it rewarding bad behavior? Nowhere in the article did I see anything about the US Government giving anything to Hamas. It's just diologue, and people are acting like Obama is seeking to throw in the towel on the War Against Terrorism.

[NuckmasterJ]

How is communication a bad thing? HAMAS is a reality that isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

How can any sort of communication with a "government" whose first priority is the destruction of a sovereign state be useful when killing civilians is considered a persons duty if they are apart of the organization? Try talking to a Hamas monkey about infrastructure, finance or law and they'll change the subject about how dead Israeli children would make for good productive work day.

[California Joe]

But ignoring them and hoping they'll realize the error of their ways and just go away is working so wellllllllllllllll!!!!


:roll:

[Invisigoth]

Well seeing that isolating groups and countries like Hamas and Iran hasn't yielded the desired results, might as well try to talk to them.

[Geezah]

How is communication a bad thing? HAMAS is a reality that isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Would you try to talk to a bully at school and hope he stops bullying you, or would you have a go at fighting back and putting him in his place?

[Hollis]

The Guardian has spoken to three *people with knowledge of the discussions in the Obama camp. There is no talk of Obama approving direct diplomatic negotiations with Hamas early on, but he is being urged by advisers to initiate low-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracising Hamas is counter-productive. A tested course would be to start *contacts through Hamas and the US intelligence services, similar to the secret process through which the US engaged with the PLO in the 1970s. Israel did not become aware of the contacts until much later.


Seems to says it for me. It still may be early to speculate, but it is possible the PA will take control of the Gaza. Hamas may become a minor partner or passe'.

[Geezah]

How is it rewarding bad behavior? Nowhere in the article did I see anything about the US Government giving anything to Hamas. It's just diologue, and people are acting like Obama is seeking to throw in the towel on the War Against Terrorism.

It just highlights once again how nieve Hussein is.

[budgie]

Both: carrots and sticks, it's elementary in diplomacy.

Firstly, America is not in the position of the 'victim' of this particular 'Bully'. It's more like the school principal. And the 'Bully' is not so much the meanest kid in school as an anti-social outcast lashing out at his classmates. While the other children in this scenario have to deal with the 'Bully' on his own level, the adults need a different approach.

And like it or not Hamas is not simply a 'school bully'. It is an organisation made up of adults. Yes they may be belligerant and militant but somebody, somewhere in the organisation must also be capable of reason.

Isolation and military action alone have not destroyed the organisation. As long as they have support among Palestinian people they will exists. Sooner or later there will have to be talks. The John Wayne approach hasn't worked.

[budgie]

It just highlights once again how nieve Hussein is.

You make this too easy:

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2962/husseinys0.jpg

[Laworkerbee]

Would you try to talk to a bully at school and hope he stops bullying you, or would you have a go at fighting back and putting him in his place?

Both...................


Seems to says it for me. It still may be early to speculate, but it is possible the PA will take control of the Gaza. Hamas may become a minor partner or passe'.

The United States has been training up several battalions of FATAH "police" in Jordan for a few years now, I bet we see them starting to earn their pay soon.

[Hollis]

Both: carrots and sticks, it's elementary in diplomacy.

And like it or not Hamas is not simply a 'school bully'. It is an organisation made up of adults. Yes they may be belligerant and militant but somebody, somewhere in the organisation must also be capable of reason.

Isolation and military action alone have not destroyed the organisation. As long as they have support among Palestinian people they will exists. Sooner or later there will have to be talks. The John Wayne approach hasn't worked.



The US is just one player out of many in this game of influence. Regardless of what the US does, there is someone out there to counter it. Unless those funding Hamas decides differently, it may not matter what the US does, it won't work.

[budgie]

The US is just one player out of many in this game of influence. Regardless of what the US does, there is someone out there to counter it. Unless those funding Hamas decides differently, it may not matter what the US does, it won't work.

Iran? A good reason to be talking to them too.

[Hollis]

Iran? A good reason to be talking to them too.


I am all for trying stuff, who knows, what won't work a year ago, might work today.

Also Iran has been heavy in promoting conversion of Sunnah to Shia. One of the reasons they have pumped a lot of money in the Hamas.

With Iran being pretty quite, it just might be good time to talk.

[Jacknola]

This article is from the Guardian, one of my favorite GB papers but a paper unabashedly far leftest - socialist and basically anti-US and Western values, at least in a fashionable silk-tie liberal and cocktail-socialist, "Neville Chamberlin" type manner.

What the @*&%# is there to talk about? What is the definition of "work?" What do you think Hamas is? What will "work" with Hamas or Iran? What the heck does "it won't work" mean? What do you all expect to happen when we start kissing up that hasn't already happened many times before?

And lets be honest... the one way we have not tried to bring peace in the area is the "roman method," make a desert and call it peace. We have not tried kicking the snot out of these killers and their supporters until they beg for peace. Maybe it is time to try that approach.

Suppose in the midst of WWII about... say mid 1943... someone said "well, all the other means have been tried but still the Waffen SS continues to kill and fight and run the death camps and now they are fielding divisions, corps, even whole armies and they just seem to be getting stronger .... so... we might as well open dialogue with them ... nothing else has seemd to work. Of course maybe we could do it clandestinely." Doesn't that sound stupid? Well, so does a similar proposal for opening "dialogue" with Hamas and Hezebolluah, and Iran for that matter.

Re: the article - Outline it, break it down and one realizes it is simply some vapid, idle musings of some bored elite effete. It is all fluff, a complete construct built out of thin air and wishful thinking. There isn't any policy person quoted and the two "terrorism experts" are actually leftest university professors... of god knows what vintage. They certainly have no policy weight.

In a way, the article is quite humorous ... a summary could read as follows: "the US might think about ending the isolation of Hamas by opening clandestine negotiations that no one will know about but just because it will look like no negotiations are taking place and the US position has not changed that maybe will not necessarily possibly be true because in secret the new adminstration might send a clandestine emassary to maybe talk about something but no one knows what they have to talk about but they have to do it because if they don't they will not be seen as changing the US policy of being mean to terrorists and if they don't change that evil George Bush (curse his name) policy then the US will be totally isolated in the region and without ANY influence or power if they don't secretely send a clandestine stooge to talk to the gang." Gezzzzzzz what a crock.

What are we going to dialogue about? Forcing Israel to voluntarily surrender? Or possibly allowing more American diplomats to be tortured to death ... while the rockets red glare and the bombast ... death to america ... bursts in air?

Isolating rogue states may not immediately achieve all your objectives.. but it does ... well .... partially isolate the personel of those rogue states, keeping them from being able to freely travel the world. These people have celebrated the death of thousands of Americans, killed tens of thousands of all races. Someone tell me... what tangible would the US to gain by "dialoguing" with these rogue gangs? What do we lose if we treat them as what they are, terrorists ... and I remind you that they EARNED that title ... the hard way.

Again I ask "What are you going to talk about?" Name the subjects, identify the positions and tell me what "concessions" the US is supposed to be willing to force out of Israel or voluntarily give to Hamas... in return for what? If you cannot even identify our own national interests and quantify it, than you will get nothing but an ever worsening condition by "talking."

I quote a revered, astute and distinquished 19th C. diplomat, (though I may have the phrasology a bit off): "the issues of the day will not be decided by 'talking' but by blood and iron..." or something to that effect.

[Red River]

Great....:roll:

Lets negotiate with terrorists...thats the change we voted for.

This is why I vote Republican.

[gaijinsamurai]

Fortunately, there were a lot more Americans who were not so narrow-minded and short-sighted.

[gaijinsamurai]

It just highlights once again how nieve Hussein is.

Oooooh....the use of his MIDDLE NAME totally took the wind out of my sails!

By the way, do you mean "NAIVE"?

[Hollis]

Jack, wasn't there in WWII some attempts to communicate with members in the N. Germany government.

At this point, I don't know what they will talk about? I don't see a negotiation being mentioned. Even prior the invasion of Iraq, there was talk with some of the baathists. I did not read who they are going to talk to in Hamas or what it is about.


This sort of thing happens, look at A. Sadat being courted to switch sides in the cold war. Depending on the talks, it may not end Hamas being isolated or ?? It may not even happen. Hamas may not be interested in talking back, especially if it does not serve Hamas' interest.

There are all kinds of level of talks.

[gaijinsamurai]

By the way, did any of you accuse Nixon and Kissinger of being naive for talking with Mao and the North Vietnamese?

Or of Reagan's people for talking with the Iranians?

During last year's campaigns, Obama was perfectly clear that he would talk with our adversaries, without pre-set conditions. The majority of voters didn't seem to find that objectionable enough to vote for McCain and Palin over him. He's merely living up to what he said he would do.

[ronnieraygun]

By the way, did any of you accuse Nixon and Kissinger of being naive for talking with Mao and the North Vietnamese?

Or of Reagan's people for talking with the Iranians?

During last year's campaigns, Obama was perfectly clear that he would talk with our adversaries, without pre-set conditions. The majority of voters didn't seem to find that objectionable enough to vote for McCain and Palin over him. He's merely living up to what he said he would do.

That's a good point, IMHO. A great point. Nixon was Realpolitik. Reagan was shrewd. Now automatically Obama is lily-livered and wants to turn over the keys to the kingdom? Not buying it.

[Invisigoth]

Great....:roll:

Lets negotiate with terrorists...thats the change we voted for.

This is why I vote Republican.

Yeah, cause they did such an awesome job didn't they?

[Hollis]

One of the aspects of this, is that 1,500,000 people are held "hostage" by Hamas. (est pop of Gaza 7/2007: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip)

I am all for sending Hamas to hell, but not the 1,500,000 other people. They could use better chance with life.

[WarDancer]

Why would anyone want to "talk" to any organization that uses women and children as shields. Barack HUSSEIN Obama apparantly believes his own press clippings and thinks the power of his personality will force Hamas to abandon its long held position that Israel must cease to exist. He is just so full of himself. I bet when he gets up in the morning he looks in the mirror and says, "I loves me some me!".

[gaijinsamurai]

Oooohh..HUSSEIN again!!!

Of course, he's probably an Al Quieda sleeper agent, recruited back in the days when he was a kid, attending a radical ISLAMIC MADRASSA in Indonesia!

By the way, where was HUSSEIN Osama..er, I mean Obama, born? I'm confused!!!!

[WarDancer]

Oooohh..HUSSEIN again!!!

Of course, he's probably an Al Quieda sleeper agent, recruited back in the days when he was a kid, attending a radical ISLAMIC MADRASSA in Indonesia!

By the way, where was HUSSEIN Osama..er, I mean Obama, born? I'm confused!!!!

Kenya. An aunt witnessed the birth. Kinda strange that he wont even produce a birth certificate. Ever watch the movie "Manchurian candidate"? Think about it!!

[ronnieraygun]

^^Please read some of the other posts regarding this. It's not necessary for you to behave like a troll. I'm gathering by "I loves me some me" you are certain a Harvard educated US president elect would speak like a minstrel. I'm disappointed in you. He's not getting blow jobs from interns yet. He will have plenty of time to disappoint later. Save your conclusions for later, because he is not the president yet.

[WarDancer]

^^Please read some of the other posts regarding this. It's not necessary for you to behave like a troll. I'm gathering by "I loves me some me" you are certain a Harvard educated US president elect would speak like a minstrel. I'm disappointed in you. He's not getting blow jobs from interns yet. He will have plenty of time to disappoint later. Save your conclusions for later, because he is not the president yet.

Well, according to Barack HUSSEIN Obama there is only one president when it comes to talking about gaza and wont give his position on the conflict, but when it comes to the economy boy, he sure is talking up a storm and acting all presidential.

Apparantly, he wants it both ways.

[delio]

By the way, did any of you accuse Nixon and Kissinger of being naive for talking with Mao and the North Vietnamese?



..or -- much more recently -- General David Petraeus, for talking to some of the horrible actors in Iraq?

[gaijinsamurai]

Well, according to Barack HUSSEIN Obama there is only one president when it comes to talking about gaza and wont give his position on the conflict, but when it comes to the economy boy, he sure is talking up a storm and acting all presidential.

Apparantly, he wants it both ways.

Perhaps it's because most Americans feel the US/World economy is a more pressing concern to us, than the most recent fighting in Gaza, with all due respect to the people of Israel and the Gaza Strip.

Or, like you pointed out, he may be a Manchurian Candidate-inspired sleeper agent, and just doesn't want his cover to be blown.

Any credible evidence to back up your claim that he was born in Kenya? Emphasis on the word "CREDIBLE".

[Sideline]

Well, according to Barack HUSSEIN Obama there is only one president when it comes to talking about gaza and wont give his position on the conflict, but when it comes to the economy boy, he sure is talking up a storm and acting all presidential.

Apparantly, he wants it both ways.

I googled Hussein for you...it says it means "Good"
So now we know you think Barack Obama is GOOD.woot

[ronnieraygun]

Well, according to Barack HUSSEIN Obama there is only one president when it comes to talking about gaza and wont give his position on the conflict, but when it comes to the economy boy, he sure is talking up a storm and acting all presidential.

Apparantly, he wants it both ways.

{For immediate release, 1.7.09} cnn.com

(Washington AP) CNN.com has just learned that president-elect Barack Obama has **** in his closet, according to Washington analysts. The news broke earlier in the day, when it was realized that the president-elect had left a copious dump previously in his closet space.
"Obama has **** in his closet," indicated a press release from the Obama transition team. "We are truly shocked, as politicians never have **** in their closet." The release added, "We are truly shocked and saddened that president-elect Obama has any **** in his closet. He can't possibly be another normal politician with random **** in his closet."
The press release stunned an otherwise brilliant militaryphotos.net, whose members are known for being so astute as to never believe any elected official would ever have **** in their closet. Further releases are to be expected as developments continue, when shocked constituents are expected to react to with feigned awe that the president-elect would have created any **** at all due to his previously held ****-free reputation. The press release will be brought in its entirety to the website militaryphotos.net, the All-Obama, All The Time Channel.

[USMCRTop]

Well, I am all for talking to ANYBODY- Obama cannot be faulted for at least trying to open a dialogue, what people sometimes forget is that though Israel and the US are firm allies, our respective national interests do NOT coincide 100% --Obama was elected (by popular vote) to do what is best for the US

[ronnieraygun]

Well, I am all for talking to ANYBODY- Obama cannot be faulted for at least trying to open a dialogue, what people sometimes forget is that though Israel and the US are firm allies, our respective national interests do NOT coincide 100% --Obama was elected (by popular vote) to do what is best for the US

x2. -And he'll go down by what the US thinks is best. At the end of the day, the length of his tenure will be determined by economic issues stateside.

[budgie]

Why would anyone want to "talk" to any organization that uses women and children as shields. Barack HUSSEIN Obama apparantly believes his own press clippings and thinks the power of his personality will force Hamas to abandon its long held position that Israel must cease to exist. He is just so full of himself. I bet when he gets up in the morning he looks in the mirror and says, "I loves me some me!".

Wow it's a shame you have to work that keyboard so hard...

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2962/husseinys0.jpg


Kenya. An aunt witnessed the birth. Kinda strange that he wont even produce a birth certificate. Ever watch the movie "Manchurian candidate"? Think about it!!

that right there is a conspiracy theory. The birth certificate has been produced - unless you want to refuse to believe it; unless you have a Kenyan one in your closet, the case is closed.

People like you also think the flight that crashed into the Pentagon was a hoax...

[gaijinsamurai]

Hey, guys: I seem to have forgotten the President-elect's middle name! Could someone please refresh my memory?

[ronnieraygun]

Hey, guys: I seem to have forgotten the President-elect's middle name! Could someone please refresh my memory?


LOL

Was it, er, Monash? Minardi? Himmler? ****, help me out here, I'm really drawing a blank...Maybe some flag-'wavin brother from the tribe of Shem could help set me straight here...Lord knows we're all apparently too stupid to figure it out.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Kenya. An aunt witnessed the birth. Kinda strange that he wont even produce a birth certificate. Ever watch the movie "Manchurian candidate"? Think about it!!Is that the one where that rich white boy serving as an NCO in GW1 has his brain messed up by a wicked private equity group or the one where the white guy gets captured and gets his brain messed up by wicked Asian Commies.

[WarDancer]

LOL

Was it, er, Monash? Minardi? Himmler? ****, help me out here, I'm really drawing a blank...Maybe some flag-'wavin brother from the tribe of Shem could help set me straight here...Lord knows we're all apparently too stupid to figure it out.

HUSSEIN. go ahead and be in denial.

[ronnieraygun]

wow. clearly this man guards our democracy for us. we must let the others know the grave dangers of which this prophet speaks.

[budgie]

This thread has been reduced to the asshattery of schoolyard teasing over children's names. That's all this business about Obama's middle name is, no matter what smartasses like WarDancer and Geezah (whose age, as I recall, used to be listed as nineteen) say to try and excuse themselves. It's pure childish name-calling.

As for the ridiculous accusation that Obama has tried to hide or downplay his middle name, how? By not using it much? Just like the rest of us? There are valid reasons we don't put our middle names front and center, not least of which because WarDancer can hardly go around saying, "Nice to meet you, my name is Assclown".

[WarDancer]

wow. clearly this man guards our democracy for us. we must let the others know the grave dangers of which this prophet speaks.

I am but one man, I try my hardest but the sheeple dont listen. Its like a bunch of lemmings leaping to their deaths.

[JKD]

Any credible evidence to back up your claim that he was born in Kenya? Emphasis on the word "CREDIBLE".

I guess that's a no, WarDancer?

[WarDancer]

Any credible evidence to back up your claim that he was born in Kenya? Emphasis on the word "CREDIBLE".

Any credible evidence to say he is American born? Havnt seen any yet. Kinda strange that the governor of Hawaii has the records sealed.

[JKD]

Yup, that's a no.

[Mackie]

Sure Iran has the finger in the pie but Hamas seems to be a much more independent player than hizbollah.
The last attacks from Lebanon by hizbollah fighters could be sign of solidarity.
A worrying situation.

Perhaps Obamas name "Hussein" is a gift. The possibility talking with Hamas and fighting a war in Afghanistan is a comfortable situation. Impossible with Bushs crusader image.

[budgie]

Any credible evidence to say he is American born? Havnt seen any yet. Kinda strange that the governor of Hawaii has the records sealed.

Proof that tehy are sealed?

[Jurinko]

Proof that tehy are sealed?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=79174

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=79174Least credible source after the Onion on the net. Oh and this mornings edition has a couple of queer bashing articles.

[Jurinko]

Whatever you say. But original of Certificate of live birth can be issued only to the person itself, his family member or authorized person. So yes, it´s probably sealed and if its owner doesnt want to show it, nobody will see it.

[Snoshi]

So what would talking help? Expect it would give Hamas recognition?..

[Plekszy Gladz]

So what would talking help? Expect it would give Hamas recognition?..

At one point President Reagon and ("state sponsored of terrorism") Ghadaffi were not too friendly - remember the 80s? next Condi Rice is shaking hands with him and history is history.

Same when Begin shook hands with Arafat in DC. They seem to have forgotten the events in Lebanon in 82.

Now Barrack wants to talk to Hamas...maybe by doing so, Hamas may change sides like the rest?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

So what would talking help? Expect it would give Hamas recognition?..Even the British talked with Irgun terrorists so whats stopping Israel talking with Hamas.

[budgie]

Whatever you say. But original of Certificate of live birth can be issued only to the person itself, his family member or authorized person. So yes, it´s probably sealed and if its owner doesnt want to show it, nobody will see it.

It has been posted online hasn't it? Does Obama have to go to every American doorstep in person and present it himself? The right-wing conspiracy-theorist nutjobs probably still wouldn't believe it. Tools.

[eugenlitwin]

The incoming Obama administration is prepared to abandon George Bush's *doctrine of isolating Hamas by establishing a channel to the Islamist organisation, sources close to the transition team say.

SOURCE:

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/08/barack-obama-gaza-hamas
(This website works when i copy and paste it into the URL box, but not when i click on it as a link)

So i may suck at posting a thread, go ahead, flame it all u want.. I appologize if this has been posted, but when i searched i did not find anything..


So what are you opinions on this? If this is true, is this a good move on Obama? Or no? Explain?


At least Obama administration has 2 big B brain –bravery

[LazerLordz]

This thread has been reduced to the asshattery of schoolyard teasing over children's names. That's all this business about Obama's middle name is, no matter what smartasses like WarDancer and Geezah (whose age, as I recall, used to be listed as nineteen) say to try and excuse themselves. It's pure childish name-calling.

As for the ridiculous accusation that Obama has tried to hide or downplay his middle name, how? By not using it much? Just like the rest of us? There are valid reasons we don't put our middle names front and center, not least of which because WarDancer can hardly go around saying, "Nice to meet you, my name is Assclown".

I'd say its the lack of real-world experience that these fellas have, that's wrecking havoc in this thread.

For some individuals, it helps to travel, meet new people, new cultures and come back with a broader mind. ;)

[Hollis]

^^^ This thread seems lost.