Thoughts on Gaza

[Umbro2914]

Ron Paul on Gaza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6vMAoFwf4

finally some words of sense on the situation in Gaza

[LineDoggie]

Paul's nuts, Hamas wasnt formed by Israel, unless you think Rosie O'Donnel was formed by Ben & Jerry's....

[rhino]

Ill give you a tought on Gaza:

people there should wake up and whoop those hamass idiots ass, they are sitting on a prime real estate and all they are thinking about is how to blow **** out of their neighbour, fvck them(the islamic extremists) kill all bastards, then build **** load of hotels, casinos and a world class airport, for crying out loud they are next door to Egipt and Israel, right on the shore of Mediterrian Sea, fricking summer is there 11mths a year, invest in tourism and entertainment and 100yrs from now bay back any land you please or have money for, from Israel

there is my thought on Gaza

[62ECHO]

I'm tired of how the far left condemns Israel, but ignore that Hamas is using human shields, mosques, etc. My blood boils when the fvcking liberals side with terrorists and somehow the rules don't apply to the terrorists, because I don't hear enough condemnation of such dirty tactics. You know how we get rid of the extremists? I say drop the bombs on one of those massive marches/protests shown on TV where you see them waving their Hamas and Hezbolah flags! The left keeps ignoring extremist Islam like that one fellah who was ignored in the 30's, and the rest was history. I could go on forever....

P.S. That was my thought and I predict forum lockdown! rofl

[Emmissary of Peace]

just hunt and exterminate all extremist in that land.

[rhino]

I'm tired of how the far left condemns Israel, but ignore that Hamas is using human shields, mosques, etc. My blood boils when the fvcking liberals side with terrorists and somehow the rules don't apply to the terrorists, because I don't hear enough condemnation of such dirty tactics. You know how we get rid of the extremists? I say drop the bombs on one of those massive marches/protests shown on TV where you see them waving their Hamas and Hezbolah flags! The left keeps ignoring extremist Islam like that one fellah who was ignored in the 30's, and the rest was history. I could go on forever....

P.S. That was my thought and I predict forum lockdown! rofl

it was done in ohhh 1917? in Russia, we all know how that turned out:roll:

[bangla]

I'm tired of how the far left condemns Israel, but ignore that Hamas is using human shields, mosques, etc. My blood boils when the fvcking liberals side with terrorists and somehow the rules don't apply to the terrorists, because I don't hear enough condemnation of such dirty tactics.

rofl


yup.
seems strange how it has become israel vs pally civvies while Hamas the perpetrators have successfully "phantomized" themselves from the collective consciousness.

so far i have not heard of any concrete workable solution over the persistence of terror by Hamas while the knee jerk reactions are mounting....

[avedis]

gaza needs the gold standard

[Tyon]

Ill give you a tought on Gaza:

people there should wake up and whoop those hamass idiots ass, they are sitting on a prime real estate and all they are thinking about is how to blow **** out of their neighbour, fvck them(the islamic extremists) kill all bastards, then build **** load of hotels, casinos and a world class airport, for crying out loud they are next door to Egipt and Israel, right on the shore of Mediterrian Sea, fricking summer is there 11mths a year, invest in tourism and entertainment and 100yrs from now bay back any land you please or have money for, from Israel

there is my thought on Gaza
I fully agree with that.

What i dont understand is why do the arabs rely on weapons and terror. Hello guys it does NOT WORK. You can use weapons if you have the slightest chance of succeding but well you dont.

The arabs should use the Ghandi style. It worked once and it can work again. But i dont know if "peaceful demonstration" is speakable in arabian.

[ting]

Paul's nuts, Hamas wasnt formed by Israel, unless you think Rosie O'Donnel was formed by Ben & Jerry's....

Ron Paul might be crazy, but our foreign minister said Ehud Barak told him about the same thing last summer. ;-)

[Fuschimuschi]

I don't really understand why the other Gaza thread is in the "non-military" related forum?

[Umbro2914]

Paul's nuts, Hamas wasnt formed by Israel, unless you think Rosie O'Donnel was formed by Ben & Jerry's....

Just because you wish it wasent the case dosent mean it isent.

the truths the truth, however sad it may be now. Israel encouraged the creation of Hamas

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Just because you wish it wasent the case dosent mean it isent.

the truths the truth, however sad it may be now. Israel encouraged the creation of HamasI doubt that Israel had a major influence in the creation of Hamas you can blame the corrupt Fatah for that and many Palestinians felt a more hardline approach was required towards Israel.
I always felt the Abu Nidal group were a bit iffy though.

[Bia]

I never understood the logic one is a terrorist only if they use home made/crappy/improvised weapons out of uniform.

Get a real weapon and wear a uniform....suddenly you're a soldier.
Put on street clothes and you're back a terrorist.

Humans suck.

[ting]

I doubt that Israel had a major influence in the creation of Hamas you can blame the corrupt Fatah for that and many Palestinians felt a more hardline approach was required towards Israel.
I always felt the Abu Nidal group were a bit iffy though.

Remember that hamas was created in the occupied territories when PLO were in exile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas

Divide an conquer is not an unheard of strategy.;-)

[Johnny_H02]

\

Humans suck.

x2, I haven't spoken about this issue on here or with anyone for that matter because I don't have a side. I think both sides are equally irritating. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have been on and off nonstop fighting since I was a kid. It isn't going to change now and it wont change in the future.

(P.S. when I say Israeli's and Palestinians I'm not generalizing the average people, but referring to the Governing bodies of both states)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Remember that hamas was created in the occupied territories when PLO were in exile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas

Divide an conquer is not an unheard of strategy.;-)The PLO might have been exile but the tales of excess were known to many.

[LineDoggie]

Just because you wish it wasent the case dosent mean it isent.

the truths the truth, however sad it may be now. Israel encouraged the creation of Hamas

Founders of Hamas:
Abdel Azziz al-Rantissi
Mohammed Taha
Ahmed Yassin

which of the three had a Bris? :roll:

Just because it comes from the mouth of Paul doesnt make it from the burning bush fellas

Fail

[LineDoggie]

I never understood the logic one is a terrorist only if they use home made/crappy/improvised weapons out of uniform.

Get a real weapon and wear a uniform....suddenly you're a soldier.
Put on street clothes and you're back a terrorist.

Humans suck.

Too simplified, it isnt that easy

Wear an Indentifiable sign

Abide by the laws of war

Carry arms Openly

Have a responsible chain of Command

all in the Geneva/Hague Conventions, and the Laws of Land Warfare.

Basically saying the only difference between Myself as a Soldier and a Terrorist is that I wear a Uniform is utter bull****

[gaz]

I never understood the logic one is a terrorist only if they use home made/crappy/improvised weapons out of uniform.

Get a real weapon and wear a uniform....suddenly you're a soldier.
Put on street clothes and you're back a terrorist.

Humans suck.

A terrorist will generally be willing to kill to push forward a political viewpoint of a small group of people.
A soldier will generally be willing to kill to push forward a political viewpoint of a democratically elected government.

Plus of course, soldiers won't hide a bomb in a market place in order to deliberately kill civilians.

[Bia]

Basically saying the only difference between Myself as a Soldier and a Terrorist is that I wear a Uniform is utter bull****But would a terrorist definition only be valid to the person/people recieving the carnage? Is there zero logic in saying a Palestenian civilian has the right to call an Israeli action a terrorist action?

My point is we toss the word around casually to fit our needs... but when you're bleeding to death and you're totaly innocent... semantics take a back seat.

For the record I take no sides here... it's too much to digest the facts of this age old dilema when every source I ever tried to study on it has equal and opposing views.

[Bia]

Plus of course, soldiers won't hide a bomb in a market place in order to deliberately kill civilians.Wouldnt firing a rocket from a robot plane untouchable in the sky.... be close to the same thing....knowing there will likely be collateral damage.

That is my point.... use official equiptment.... you're heros defending
Make it in a basement.... you're a terrorist.


Sounds like tit for tat.

[Hollis]

But would a terrorist definition only be valid to the person/people recieving the carnage? Is there zero logic in saying a Palestenian civilian has the right to call an Israeli action a terrorist action?

My point is we toss the word around casually to fit our needs... but when you're bleeding to death and you're totaly innocent... semantics take a back seat.

For the record I take no sides here... it's too much to digest the facts of this age old dilema when every source I ever tried to study on it has equal and opposing views.


We can all play lawyers and banter over this. There are actual definition of what a terrorist is, plus Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization (US state department, EU and others).

Same with justified use of military force and unjustified use of military force.

If we stick to actual definitions, then the terms are not thrown around. It benefits terrorist organization to throw terms around because it add to the over all confusion. A terrorist organization may be no where close to military power of a legitimate authority they are fighting, but with propaganda they can stand better than a equal.

[gaz]

Wouldnt firing a rocket from a robot plane untouchable in the sky.... be close to the same thing....knowing there will likely be collateral damage.

That is my point.... use official equiptment.... you're heros defending
Make it in a basement.... you're a terrorist.


Sounds like tit for tat.

To me, the important word there is 'likely' -
That rocket will be fired and there's a chance that civilians will be killed.
That marketplace bomb will be detonated and the only outcome is that civilians will be killed.

[Bia]

We can all play lawyers and banter over this. There are actual definition of what a terrorist is, plus Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization (US state department, EU and others).

Same with justified use of military force and unjustified use of military force.

If we stick to actual definitions, then the terms are not thrown around. It benefits terrorist organization to throw terms around because it add to the over all confusion. A terrorist organization may be no where close to military power of a legitimate authority they are fighting, but with propaganda they can stand better than a equal.

In other words the weaker and more desperate in any conflict.... will always be the terrorist.

[SoSo]

Everyone has been yelling for Israel to back off except Hamas. If Hamas is taking too many casualties in this war, let them appeal to Israel for a ceasefire. Until they do, I think the IDF should show them no mercy.

[Hollis]

Wouldnt firing a rocket from a robot plane untouchable in the sky.... be close to the same thing....knowing there will likely be collateral damage.

That is my point.... use official equiptment.... you're heros defending
Make it in a basement.... you're a terrorist.


Sounds like tit for tat.


One is indiscriminate, the other is not. It is not defined on whether or not there is collateral damage.

With billions spent on weapons to make them more accurate and surgical, we have not developed a weapon that can completely eliminate the possibility of collateral damage. Use drones is more surgical that just firing rounds in the general area of the enemy, which is also considered justifiable use of military force.


I think the fact that billions have been spent to make weapons more surgical shows that their is a sincere desire to reduce or eliminate collateral damage.

[Bia]

To me, the important word there is 'likely' -
That rocket will be fired and there's a chance that civilians will be killed.
That marketplace bomb will be detonated and the only outcome is that civilians will be killed.
But what if one side cant afford rocket planes for prescision and their enemy is overwhelmingly protected... and they are desperate to defend... so their only option is urban guerilla warfare as opposed to battlefield warfare.

Seems like the poor guy (as in all cases everywhere) gets screwed in the end....even if he was right.

[Hollis]

In other words the weaker and more desperate in any conflict.... will always be the terrorist.



?? that does not make any reason at all, Again there is a definition of a terrorists, Weaker and more desperate is NOT a part of that definition.


Terrorist as defined by US Law:

http://terrorism.about.com/od/whatisterroris1/ss/DefineTerrorism_5.htm

[Military-G]

But what if one side cant afford rocket planes for prescision and their enemy is overwhelmingly protected... and they are desperate to defend... so their only option is urban guerilla warfare as opposed to battlefield warfare.

Seems like the poor guy (as in all cases everywhere) gets screwed in the end....even if he was right.

Most terrorist groups are far from poor :|

[Ichabod]

But what if one side cant afford rocket planes for prescision and their enemy is overwhelmingly protected... and they are desperate to defend... so their only option is urban guerilla warfare as opposed to battlefield warfare.

Seems like the poor guy (as in all cases everywhere) gets screwed in the end....even if he was right.

Except that terrorists deliberately strike civilians.

[gaz]

But what if one side cant afford rocket planes for prescision and their enemy is overwhelmingly protected... and they are desperate to defend... so their only option is urban guerilla warfare as opposed to battlefield warfare.

Seems like the poor guy (as in all cases everywhere) gets screwed in the end....even if he was right.

You seem to be concentrating on the type of weaponry they're using whilst I'm concentrating on who they're aiming the weapons at.

Soldiers aim their weapons at other people carrying weapons and sometimes unarmed civilians unintentionally die as a result of that. Terrorists aim their weapons at soldiers and unarmed civilians alike and just don't care who they kill.

[Bia]

One is indiscriminate, the other is not. It is not defined on whether or not there is collateral damage.

With billions spent on weapons to make them more accurate and surgical, we have not developed a weapon that can completely eliminate the possibility of collateral damage. Use drones is more surgical that just firing rounds in the general area of the enemy, which is also considered justifiable use of military force.


I think the fact that billions have been spent to make weapons more surgical shows that their is a sincere desire to reduce or eliminate collateral damage.Well Palestein cant afford F-16 and drone planes.

Lets pretend for a second...

Country A is poor and oppressed
Country B is wealthy and oppressing.
Should country A not defend itself in any way possible?

[Bia]

Except that terrorists deliberately strike civilians.


You seem to be concentrating on the type of weaponry they're using whilst I'm concentrating on who they're aiming the weapons at.

Soldiers aim their weapons at other people carrying weapons and sometimes unarmed civilians unintentionally die as a result of that. Terrorists aim their weapons at soldiers and unarmed civilians alike and just don't care who they kill.Because the fact they cant go onto a battlefield.
They are MASSIVELY unequal.
They are desperate and resorting to all they have..... no?

[rhino]

In other words the weaker and more desperate in any conflict.... will always be the terrorist.

go ahead, call them freedom fighters

[Bia]

go ahead, call them freedom fightersWhat the fukc are you talking about???
I'm asking questions as I am uninformed on all this.

[Ichabod]

Because the fact they cant go onto a battlefield.
They are MASSIVELY unequal.
They are desperate and resorting to all they have..... no?

I see what you mean.But that still doesn't justify attacks on civilians.There were many resistance groups that didn't have the capabilities Hamas has and they didn't resort to rocket attacks on civilian centers,but they engaged military units nonetheless.

Hamas would be a lot more credible if they were sticking to engagements with the IDF.

[gaz]

Because the fact they cant go onto a battlefield.
They are MASSIVELY unequal.
They are desperate and resorting to all they have..... no?

Sorry, but in this day and age I can't see any justification for the deliberate targeting of civilians.

[Military-G]

Because the fact they cant go onto a battlefield.
They are MASSIVELY unequal.
They are desperate and resorting to all they have..... no?

That would kind of justify the stuff those morons in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing to coalition soldiers .. if you look at it that way.

Not good.

[Hollis]

Well Palestein cant afford F-16 and drone planes.

Lets pretend for a second...

Country A is poor and oppressed
Country B is wealthy and oppressing.
Should country A not defend itself in any way possible?


read the definition.

It is not about fairness or a fair fight.


BTW, I guess you missed a number of wars fought on the Palestinian behalf where Israel was not the stronger military. IMHO, Palestinian conflict is perpetuated because, it is the most effective way to fight Israel, by those who want to see Israel at the bottom of the Mediterranean.

The Palestinian people are just pawns. The more they bleed and suffer, well look at Arafat, the more money he made. He was worth approximately 3,000,000,000 dollars.

[Bia]

Sorry, but in this day and age I can't see any justification for the deliberate targeting of civilians.What would be a logical thing to do instead of defending ones self against the indefensable?

[Umbro2914]

Founders of Hamas:
Abdel Azziz al-Rantissi
Mohammed Taha
Ahmed Yassin

which of the three had a Bris? :roll:

Just because it comes from the mouth of Paul doesnt make it from the burning bush fellas

Fail
your so narrow minded.

[Bia]

read the definition.

It is not about fairness or a fair fight.


BTW, I guess you missed a number of wars fought on the Palestinian behalf where Israel was not the stronger military. IMHO, Palestinian conflict is perpetuated because, it is the most effective way to fight Israel, by those who want to see Israel at the bottom of the Mediterranean.

The Palestinian people are just pawns. The more they bleed and suffer, well look at Arafat, the more money he made. He was worth approximately 3,000,000,000 dollars.Oh yeah this is all new to me. Two years ago I couldnt name a single city over there.
I'm just asking/learning is all.

[gaz]

What would be a logical thing to do instead of defending ones self against the indefensable?

Target the military. I may well hate what is happening to coalition soldiers in Irag and Afghanistan but at least I can understand it - targeting civvies is incomprehensible to me.

[signatory]

I think the fact that billions have been spent to make weapons more surgical shows that their is a sincere desire to reduce or eliminate collateral damage.

A bonus effect. If there was a true desire you would have seen more dual-mode weapons as opposed to the less precise gps weapons. Even the F-22 cant drop lgb's. The money is spent on pgm's to hit targets - nothing more nothing less. It's combat effectiveness and a reduced need for bulky ammo that is desirable...

[Moledet]

But what if one side cant afford rocket planes for prescision and their enemy is overwhelmingly protected... and they are desperate to defend... so their only option is urban guerilla warfare as opposed to battlefield warfare.

Seems like the poor guy (as in all cases everywhere) gets screwed in the end....even if he was right.
One way to look at it is, "what if they had the hi-tech weapons and we didn't?".
Well, in that case they would simply kill all of us, no prisoners, no trials just carpet bombing and executions of anyone.

Want an example of what happens when Hamas has the upper hand in terms of firepower, look at its uprising against the Fatah. People thrown off of buildings, set on fire, walked through the streets naked and then executed, etc...

[helomech]

Terrorists and their organizations don't try for the surgical type strike at their enemy like an organized military force would try but,more of a mass casualty carnage for maximum psychological effect;the worse the damage the bigger PR win for them especially in the terms of fear being struck at the military and the peoples they protect

[LineDoggie]

your so narrow minded.

If, by Narrow minded you mean the truth is on my side, then yes. :)

Then of course that makes yours a Vast desolate open area like the great salt flats, eh?


Comes a time you must realize that not every goddammed syllable coming from Paul is the truth.

Ah, well put another Aimee Allen song on and Blissfully dream.....

[rhino]

What the fukc are you talking about???
I'm asking questions as I am uninformed on all this.


Oh yeah this is all new to me. Two years ago I couldnt name a single city over there.
I'm just asking/learning is all.


you are so cute when you try to hide behind your feminity

but seriously, I know you are very inteligent, seen some posts of yours that would make a head spin on less educated people, so this "Oh I dont know this stuff" bs doesnt wash with me

[Bia]

Terrorists and their organizations don't try for the surgical type strike at their enemy like an organized military force would try but,more of a mass casualty carnage for maximum psychological effect;the worse the damage the bigger PR win for them especially in the terms of fear being struck at the military and the peoples they protectBecause they cant. Not because they would rather toss pipe bombs into buses and cafes. They have no f-16s and half million dollar rockets.
Can you imagine right now if Hammas said OK....meet us on the battlefield.... they'd be decimated in seconds.

It's funny people seem to believe these cave dwellers enjoy cave dwelling and fighting with sticks. I'm pretty sure Moldet is 100% correct... if Hammas did have billion dollar weaponry.... they'd use it, all of it.

[LineDoggie]

Well Palestein cant afford F-16 and drone planes.

Lets pretend for a second...

Country A is poor and oppressed
Country B is wealthy and oppressing.
Should country A not defend itself in any way possible?

Country A shouldnt be deliberately Targetting its neighbors civilian population, thats why Country B is spanking them.

Country A is being Oppressed from its own leadership, not from Country B

Drones typically use guided Ordnance, why not just dumb bombs?

Maybe because they actually want to only hit the Bad Guys.......

[Bia]

Country A shouldnt be deliberately Targetting its neighbors civilian population, thats why Country B is spanking them.

Country A is being Oppressed from its own leadership, not from Country B

Drones typically use guided Ordnance, why not just dumb bombs?

Maybe because they actually want to only hit the Bad Guys.......That makes sense Linedoggie.
Thanks guys for tolerating my querys.
Again I take no sides... just furrows my brow when I see the word terrorist tossed around so one sidedly.

IMHO whoever is attacking me....is a terrorist despite their political agenda.

[helomech]

Bia,

I'm thinking even if they did have all the modern weaponry that Isreal has,with their mentality of wanting to rid the world of anything and everything that's Jewish,they would still go for the mass casualty of civilians and military targets together-their hatred is that deep and they've made no secrets about it

You've got some damn good questions for this thread though,with no easy answers

[gaz]

Because they cant. Not because they would rather toss pipe bombs into buses and cafes. They have no f-16s and half million dollar rockets.

A really simplified example is to look at Northern Ireland, British troops over there weren't using aircraft to drop bombs or firing missiles everywhere, they just had rifles and machine guns yet the IRA still chose to leave carbombs outside shopping centres to kill civilians.

[Bia]

Bia,

I'm thinking even if they did have all the modern weaponry that Isreal has,with their mentality of wanting to rid the world of anything and everything that's Jewish,they would still go for the mass casualty of civilians and military targets together-their hatred is that deep and they've made no secrets about it
I think you're correct here.


A really simplified example is to look at Northern Ireland, British troops over there weren't using aircraft to drop bombs or firing missiles everywhere, they just had rifles and machine guns yet the IRA still chose to leave carbombs outside shopping centres to kill civilians.
Ahh... food for thought.

Excellent points helo & gaz

[LineDoggie]

A really simplified example is to look at Northern Ireland, British troops over there weren't using aircraft to drop bombs or firing missiles everywhere, they just had rifles and machine guns yet the IRA still chose to leave carbombs outside shopping centres to kill civilians.

Quoted for truth, in fact seems like PIRA avoided confrontation with any Armed opposition to go after the Unarmed, easy targets

[Military-G]

I guess in this conflict the goals of the 2 speak volumes.

Hamas wanting to wipe out Israel from existance and not caring 1 bit for the suffering of their own population.

Israel wanting to disable a force targeting civilians in its country, actually caring about their population.

[Bia]

A really simplified example is to look at Northern Ireland, British troops over there weren't using aircraft to drop bombs or firing missiles everywhere, they just had rifles and machine guns yet the IRA still chose to leave carbombs outside shopping centres to kill civilians.


Quoted for truth, in fact seems like PIRA avoided confrontation with any Armed opposition to go after the Unarmed, easy targets

If we compare the IRA attacks with Hammas attacks... are they close in scale or is it an analogy y'all are using for me to better understand the bigger picture?


Are there logistical reasons Israel isnt doing what British soldiers did during that time?

[gaz]

If we compare the IRA attacks with Hammas attacks... are they close in scale or is it an analogy y'all are using for me to better understand the bigger picture?


Are there logistical reasons Israel isnt doing what British soldiers did during that time?

I'm not really that familiar with the Israel/Palestine attacks but my immediate thought would be that the IRA attacks were not as regular or as big as attacks on Israel. The biggest single loss of life in Northern Ireland was 29 killed in the Omagh bombing in the late 90s but the vast majority of attacks didn't come close to that level of carnage.

[oldone]

If we compare the IRA attacks with Hammas attacks... are they close in scale or is it an analogy y'all are using for me to better understand the bigger picture?


Are there logistical reasons Israel isnt doing what British soldiers did during that time?

Health and Safety in Europe is strict :) LOLOLOLOL

[Fargin]

I don't think Hamas' main goal is to push the israelis into the sea, I think they are content with maintaining status quo. Staying in power, keeping confronting and pressuring Israel to retaliate. There's alot of money to be made from international aid, controling the black market and funding from Iran, extremist Islamic organizations et al. They were expecting Israel to act eventually, just not this thoroughly.

I symphatize with all the civilians, I think it's terrible, but electing a terrorism organization through democratic elections, has it's consequences.

[California Joe]

Bia, one subject that I am intimately familiar with is the subject of minimizing collateral damage. At least within the US DoD. I have seen and worked on numerous programs and simulations whereby the exact angle and explosive was calculated specifically to minimize civilian casualties, damage to religious sites, power plants, museums, water pumps etc. To the point where lawyers and subject matter experts are involved. The lengths that we go to is beyond comprehension compared to what was acceptable in past conflicts.

The Israelis are operating under a lot of the same SOPs. They know from past experiences that they are fighting world opinion as soon as they react.

[Connaught Ranger]

Health and Safety in Europe is strict :) LOLOLOLOL

Not so funny to those who lost people in the terrorist attacks on both sides of the divide.

[tecumseh11]

Country A shouldnt be deliberately Targetting its neighbors civilian population, thats why Country B is spanking them.

Country A is being Oppressed from its own leadership, not from Country B

Drones typically use guided Ordnance, why not just dumb bombs?

Maybe because they actually want to only hit the Bad Guys.......

Country B shouldn't be blockading Country A. Country B shouldn't have gone deliberately out of its way to beat down Country A because of its leadership, which was fairly elected with all due democratic process.

If Country B wants Country A to stop targeting civilians, then I suggest that Country B allow Country A to trade in its Grad rockets for Country B's smart bombs.

[akd]

Country B shouldn't be blockading Country A. Country B shouldn't have gone deliberately out of its way to beat down Country A because of its leadership, which was fairly elected with all due democratic process.

If Country B wants Country A to stop targeting civilians, then I suggest that Country B allow Country A to trade in its Grad rockets for Country B's smart bombs.

You are actually suggesting that a government that totally disregards its own citizens' lives in its actions would seek to minimize civilian casualties on its declared eternal enemy's side if given access to precision weaponry?

[Moledet]

You are actually suggesting that a government that totally disregards its own citizens' lives in its actions would seek to minimize civilian casualties on its declared eternal enemy's side if given access to precision weaponry?
They would more likely fire it at the nuclear reactors.

[Bia]

CJ... I do believe Israel is at least not just mindlessly carpet bombing the area and wishes of course for a swift and efficient solution asap.

What I wasnt considering earlier in my comments is I assumed "if"... if Hammas had equal weapons they'd all be fighting a conventional battle. Most here corrected me in saying no they would likely mindlessly carpet bomb the Israelis. I dont know how true that is... I always assumed the Pals anger and desperate retaliation techniques were due to the fact and frustration of not having equal ways to fight back.

Like a big messy circle.

Is Hammas honorable enough to... if equaly armed... go onto a battlefield and not target civis?

[Umbro2914]

If, by Narrow minded you mean the truth is on my side, then yes. :)

Then of course that makes yours a Vast desolate open area like the great salt flats, eh?


Comes a time you must realize that not every goddammed syllable coming from Paul is the truth.

Ah, well put another Aimee Allen song on and Blissfully dream.....
you come of as an as*hole just fyi
The belief is not that Israel directly created Hamas, however it did not stop it from being created in the early stages when it was weak because at that time it was useful to Israel. Israel supported its creation to act as a counterbalance to the PLO.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

[Salman]

Its the common people who are hurting the most, I think a big % of the casualties are children and women in the Gaza operation. It's not suprising really, hamas use civilian areas to hide and attack from and Israel seems to have a much looser ROE than others. No winning hearts and minds here!

The question is will the rocket launches stop? Hamas dont care about its own civilians unless their seat of power gets affected, this is probably what Israel is going for, creating a situation unacceptable by palestinians and maybe by that way oust hamas.

[Atlantic Friend]

Is Hammas honorable enough to... if equaly armed... go onto a battlefield and not target civis?

No, they wouldn't, in all probability. It's also a question of war goals. Hamas and their ilk do not want to simply defeat Israel and force a political solution, their fight is with Israel as a national entity.

Take Hamas and Fath, for example, for the imbalance in weaponry was far lesser than between Hamas and Israel. They didn't duke it out in a fair fight. Fath militants were simply murdered - a harbinger of things to come for Israel should Hamas and its supporters get their way, and a reminder (particularly for Israelis, I hope) of the kind of terror their Palestinian neighbors suffer day in and day out.

[Bia]

Seems hopeless.
Never heard of Fath until today will have to read into it.
Bottom line is a real estate issue right? Sharing is out of the question... both sides want it all?

[Hollis]

In my simple mind, Hamas = Narcissistic psychopaths. For the definition see DSM IV-R


Hamas = leadership not necessary rank and file (<--actually know where that term come from)

[Atlantic Friend]

Seems hopeless.
Never heard of Fath until today will have to read into it.
Bottom line is a real estate issue right? Sharing is out of the question... both sides want it all?


Fath was the faction Yasser Arafat dominated. It used to be the big shots in Gaza and the Occupied Territories, and upon the unilateral withdrawal of IDF forces from Gaza, it found itself attacked ruthlessly by the Hamas, in a simple power play about who'd get to speak for Palestinians (and get fat checks from sympathetic countries in their behalf).

I think it has long gone from a simple question of real estate, unfortunately. There's a real estate problem. There's the control of water sources. And there's the claim from both sides that this land is theirs by divine decree, and the other side should simply roll over and die or leave.

[LineDoggie]

Country B shouldn't be blockading Country A. Country B shouldn't have gone deliberately out of its way to beat down Country A because of its leadership, which was fairly elected with all due democratic process.

If Country B wants Country A to stop targeting civilians, then I suggest that Country B allow Country A to trade in its Grad rockets for Country B's smart bombs.


Country B has every right to not allow Country A to use Country B to resupply or Profit from its actions.*


Country C also has a Border with Country A, Country C refused to Open their Border with Country A even though they share the same religion, I wonder why?

Country G back in 1933 also elected a Leader fairly, Country G was responsible for a World War because of it's duly elected leadership.




* If Joe has a window facing Sam. and Joe shoots his pistol through sams window, will sam either:

A- Beat Joes ass in until he stops

B- Invite him into his house to take his money

now Phil is Joes Brother, Phil wont allow Joe in his house either.

:bash:

[Hollis]

Fath was the faction Yasser Arafat dominated. It used to be the big shots in Gaza and the Occupied Territories, and upon the unilateral withdrawal of IDF forces from Gaza, it found itself attacked ruthlessly by the Hamas, in a simple power play about who'd get to speak for Palestinians (and get fat checks from sympathetic countries in their behalf).

I think it has long gone from a simple question of real estate, unfortunately. There's a real estate problem. There's the control of water sources. And there's the claim from both sides that this land is theirs by divine decree, and the other side should simply roll over and die or leave.


Also there are billions of dollars at stake. Heck the socialist always point out how "greedy" the westerners are. In my experience .................. are more so.

[LineDoggie]

you come of as an as*hole just fyi Praise from Caeser...........:roll:




The belief is not that Israel directly created Hamas, however it did not stop it from being created in the early stages when it was weak because at that time it was useful to Israel. Israel supported its creation to act as a counterbalance to the PLO.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

Thats like saying rapist's were created by miniskirts, it dont wash.

[Atlantic Friend]

Country G back in 1933 also elected a Leader fairly, Country G was responsible for a World War because of it's duly elected leadership.

It was back in 1932 actually but the example can be valid. With one caveat : country I weakened the vastly imperfect government structure of nation P until it was unable to resist the assault of faction H, which is not only vastly imperfect, but the bloodthirstiest of them all.

Country I may have painted itself into a ****ty corner until the paint dries, and now laments the fact the previous govenrment faction cannot regain control of the Strip.

Not that it justifies anything faction H does, or the previous government did, but hopefully it'll serve as a warning for the future, when once again country I will have to hold talks with some people from nation P.

[rhino]

Thats like saying rapist's were created by miniskirts, it dont wash.

oh you would be surprised what would wash in rural parts of Poland