Black hawk down questions.

[mrtopher39]

Hey everyone,
My first post so please forgive me if I do anything wrong.
I have a couple of questions to aks anyone who will enduldge me.
1st: I am reading Mike Durants book and I noticed that he has the same unit patch that Gary Gordon and Mike Shughart do but he wears a beret and they dont? I though they were in different units?

Second: I read that about half of the Rangers in the reg. are Ranger qualified...HUH? How can aRanger be a Ranger w/o Ranger qualification?

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers.
C.

[digrar]

Thread title changed and moved to the history section.

[Britboy]

Hey everyone,
My first post so please forgive me if I do anything wrong.
I have a couple of questions to aks anyone who will enduldge me.
1st: I am reading Mike Durants book and I noticed that he has the same unit patch that Gary Gordon and Mike Shughart do but he wears a beret and they dont? I though they were in different units?

Second: I read that about half of the Rangers in the reg. are Ranger qualified...HUH? How can aRanger be a Ranger w/o Ranger qualification?

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers.
C.

I'm not US, however I believe that they can volunteer for service with the Ranger Regt (with a Ranger Indoc, i.e. shorter course?) and then have a certain amount of time to get the full 'Ranger School' done, and it is a requirement for them to get promotion in that unit.

It confused me too, in the British system for example I have not known someone tip up at, say, an infantry unit without having done CIC, even with the TA who neccessarily recruit and train locally (rather than getting fully qualled guys straight from the depot/Phase 2) the onus is on getting the lads through their courses as soon as they can. I've not served with them but I can't imagine that PARA/Airborne Forces or RM/Commando Forces would take people without the P Coy/Cdo Course either (not even specialised jobs get away with that, since I have known a Cdo trained Naval Chaplain) which is what seems to be the case here, taking someone in as Ranger Inf with the opportunity to do the course later.

I will leave it to the Americans on here to fully elucidate, but hope I'm not too far off the mark?

Regards
BB

[James]

My understanding of the Ranger Battalions is that younger enlisted guys are allowed in after completeing a 3 week Ranger Indoctrination Program (RIP) after basic and jump school. Later, as time and space permit, they are sent to Ranger School. It is also possible in some cases to go to Ranger School, but not ever serve in the Ranger Regiment.

[mrtopher39]

You mentioned that you can have a Ranger tab w/o ever serving in the unit.
How does that work and what would the benefit of having the tab be for the soldier who earned it?

[flanker7]

You can get a Ranger tab by passimg Ranger school without being in the US Army even.
Some Greek Army officers have past it.
Only benefit being experience(which can be passed on) and personal achievement

[mrtopher39]

Is the Ranger school tab the same one a Ranger in the Reg. would eventually earn if they are not qualified?

[James]

The Ranger Tab is worn after finishing Ranger School.

The Ranger Regiment scroll is worn by members of that unit. If you are serving in the Ranger Regiment and have completed Ranger School, you can wear both.

[mrtopher39]

Ok, sorry for the stupid qestions but im new at this:
I get that you wear the tab after completing the school for both Ranger and non Ranger alike.
Can a non Ranger qualified troop do all of the same stuff as that troops that are qualified can and do the non qualified guys have a time limit w/in which they have to complete the school?

[mrtopher39]

Another question:
Do you know why Mike Durant is wearing the same unit patch plus a beret that Shughart / Gordon wear w/o berets?

[muttbutt]

Another question:
Do you know why Mike Durant is wearing the same unit patch plus a beret that Shughart / Gordon wear w/o berets?
Are you sure it's a unit patch and not a mission specific one?

[TehSuig]

Because both the 160th SOAR and SFOD-D fall under USASOC. They will wear the same unit patch when a picture is taken in Class A's. As for the beret, don't look into it too much. The photographer probably just told them to not put their berets on for the picture.

And yes, non-Ranger qualified guys can do all the same stuff Ranger qual'ed guys can do. They just didn't have to starve themselves for two months to wear a piece of cloth with 6 magic letters on it.

[mrtopher39]

Ohhh I see.
Then why would anyone bother to earn it in the Regiment?

[Mordecai]

Ohhh I see.
Then why would anyone bother to earn it in the Regiment?

Because it is required to stay in Regiment, it is required to be promoted to E5, to stop getting the beat down from the spec-4 mafia at Regiment, respect, to do it... There are plenty of other reasons but those are at the forefront of my brain at the moment

[mrtopher39]

Parent unit?
Guys, please forgive me being so green. Im 17 and highly interested in all things Army & plan on joining.
But however, I am not one of those "I want to be delta" type. My question is simply based on something I noticed in a picture in MD's book.
Thanks for the help.

[TehSuig]

It's part of the unit heritage. You're not fully a Ranger until you have the scroll with a tab above it, in the eyes of the Regiment. I think the statistic they used to tell us years ago was that 60% of guys who pass RIP and got to the Batts end up getting kicked out in the first 6 months anyway. The rest get their tabs and stay around for their two year tours or more.

My statement that all infantrymen can do what Ranger Qual'd guys can do has to do with some of the dingbats I've seen get Ranger Tabs and come back to the unit acting like their **** doesn't stink. The guys couldn't wipe their own asses without their team leaders help, but as soon as they get that tab they are somehow the most badass dudes on the planet. But in reality, they still suck.

[Mordecai]

Parent unit?...

USASOC.

Google is your friend; try it.

[mrtopher39]

I see, so its "one of those things" then.
The RIP is just the basic step then I take it.

I can imagine that scene, that tab seems pertty prestigeous to most people.

[Mordecai]

I see, so its "one of those things" then.
The RIP is just the basic step then I take it.

I can imagine that scene, that tab seems pertty prestigeous to most people.

More weight is placed on the Scroll than the Tab.

[California Joe]

Dear Crip,

When you are at a BBQ, is this *wiggles index finger* really your safety?

TIA,

A Fan.

[Mordecai]

Dear Crip,

When you are at a BBQ, is this *wiggles index finger* really your safety?

TIA,

A Fan.

On my primary not so much...

On my secondary yes... p-)

[mrtopher39]

Oh that is funny.

[Mofreaka]

Dear Crip,

When you are at a BBQ, is this *wiggles index finger* really your safety?

TIA,

A Fan.

That just made my day lol.

[Sewen]

Ohhh I see.
Then why would anyone bother to earn it in the Regiment?Why wouldn't you?

[Erik2a4]

Aw hell...someone notify BrianT so he can clarify if I screw anything up. I am Ranger Qualified but I have never served in the Ranger Regiment. But I saw a movie about it once. I think.

Ranger School is administered by the Ranger Training Brigade and is generally run by the US Army Infantry School. This is their mission statement:


CONDUCT RANGER AND RECONNAISSANCE AND SURVEILLANCE LEADER COURSES TO FURTHER DEVELOP THE COMBAT ARMS RELATED FUNCTIONAL SKILLS OF OFFICER AND ENLISTED VOLUNTEERS WHO ARE ELIGIBLE FOR ASSIGNMENT TO UNITS WHOSE PRIMARY MISSION IS TO ENGAGE IN THE CLOSE COMBAT, DIRECT FIRE BATTLERanger School is a leadership school primarily for combat arms Officers, NCOs and selected enlisted soldiers. For instance nearly all Infantry Officers in the US Army attend Ranger School after the Infantry Officer's Basic Course.


75th Ranger Regiment is a SOF unit. NCOs in the unit generally stay in the unit, but may rotate out to other units; Officers rotate in and out and have already had experience at the level at which they are "hired" (ex: a Company Commander in Regiment has already been an outstanding Company Commander for 12-24 months in another Infantry unit) This is off of the Fort Benning webpage :


The 75th Ranger Regiment is a lethal, agile and flexible force, capable of executing a myriad of complex, joint special operations missions in support of U.S. policy and objectives. Today’s Ranger Regiment is the Army’s premier raid force.Their capabilities include air assault and direct action raids seizing key terrain such as airfields, destroying strategic facilities, and capturing or killing enemies of the Nation. Rangers are capable of conducting squad through regimental size operations using a variety of infiltration techniques including airborne, air assault and ground platforms.At one point in time Ranger School taught a POI that was a reflection of missions executed by the Ranger Regiment. Over time that has changed, however, since Ranger School is a small-unit tactics leadership qualification versus a technical competency qualification (like Airborne school or CDQC) it is not necessary for every soldier entering into the Regiment to already have their tab.

The thinking goes along the lines of, "You don't need a Ranger Tab to be a successful Ranger, but you need a Ranger Tab to be a successful Ranger Officer or NCO." Plus there's always the, "I did this and it sucks, so you're going to do this as a rite of passage" bit that we in the military love so much.

Prospective Rangers in the rank of SGT and below attend the Ranger Indoctrination Program while Prospective Rangers above the rank of SSG attend the Ranger Orientation Program.

A person with a short tab is "Ranger Qualified" and a person currently in the Regiment is a Ranger.

It is different from P Coy or the Commando Course in that the primary method of grading for Ranger School is leadership during patrolling. It's generally considered unreasonable to stick a brand-new private as a platoon leader for a mission and expect him to be successful; he just doesn't have the firm foundation of small-unit tactics yet, although many units, including the 75th, have Pre-Ranger programs that can actually be more difficult than Ranger School itself. RIP/ROP is the equivilent in this case of P Coy or Commando Course: it's a "selection program" designed to weed out soldiers who cannot adhere to the standard required by the Regiment.

Get rid of the name "Ranger" and think of it as two seperate goals. Ranger school teaches small unit tactics and leadership in an adverse environment, much the same as Small Unit Tactics does for Special Forces during their Q Course.

The Ranger Regiment conducts raids and direct action as a member of SOF in support of US policy similar to the UK's SFSG. It just so happens that the unit requires it's leadership to be Ranger Qualified.

Brian or any other current or former batt boy want to clarify or correct me, please do.

[Erik2a4]

It's part of the unit heritage. You're not fully a Ranger until you have the scroll with a tab above it, in the eyes of the Regiment. I think the statistic they used to tell us years ago was that 60% of guys who pass RIP and got to the Batts end up getting kicked out in the first 6 months anyway. The rest get their tabs and stay around for their two year tours or more.

My statement that all infantrymen can do what Ranger Qual'd guys can do has to do with some of the dingbats I've seen get Ranger Tabs and come back to the unit acting like their **** doesn't stink. The guys couldn't wipe their own asses without their team leaders help, but as soon as they get that tab they are somehow the most badass dudes on the planet. But in reality, they still suck.

It's all what one get's out of it. The person is more important than the qualification. That being said, however, I would say that generally the more squared-away individuals I've worked with have been short-tabbed in addition to whatever else they're rocking. In this case the school took a good performer and gave him the tools to make himself better. It cannot turn a walking turd into a gleaming beacon of soldierly manhood.

I've met and worked with good and bad guys from Regiment, the line, the Airborne, SEALS, Marines, SF, and foreign allies. I've rarely seen a unit that didn't at least have a few studs and a few duds among it.

And I've sure figured out that rank and qualifications can indicate experience and ability, but do not guarantee it.

IIRC, in my Ranger school platoon I had two SEALS, one Marine, several Army Lts., one Army Infantry CPT, one SF CPT, two SF NCOs, several ARMY SGTs, a few Batt Boys, and one very motivated and technically and tactically proficient Ranger Regiment cook.

[California Joe]

Someone give Erik the "Giant post of the Day" award. :)

[Erik2a4]

Someone give Erik the "Giant post of the Day" award. :)

Large post = Large dingus. Right? p-)

Hell, I probably lost everyone half-way in. Next time I'll include flashing gifs, anime on youtube, and a pie-chart.

Btw, if one wants to be an Officer in US SF, they're still going to send you to Ranger School after the Q course. Just a little FYI.

Remember, in the US Army we like to mix **** up. For instance, Special Forces is both a unit and a qualification, but not everyone in the unit is qualified, and not everyone who is qualified is in the unit, although to get the qualification you have to earn the MOS that is only prevalent in that unit. Also, all members of SF are SOF, but not all SOF are SF. All Rangers are SOF, but not all Rangers are Ranger qualified.

[California Joe]

You massive Powerpoint having bastard.

[Britboy]

Ah, so Ranger School is more like, for instance, a Platoon Commander's Battle Course than, for example, all about abseiling out of helicopters and underwater knife fighting and such?

I now see why US Infantry officers tend to do Ranger school. I thought, why do they need to do Ranger skills if they won't be serving in a Ranger unit, but maybe a Bradley unit. Now I realise its more about professional development in trying circumstances than skillsets particular to the roles the Rgr Regt carries out.

Do Reservist/National Guard offrs do a form of ranger training for leadership purposes too?

Interestingly enough, I think Army Ranger Wing (Irish Defence Forces special forces) was set up by some Irishmen who had done Ranger School in the US.

[TehSuig]

Do Reservist/National Guard offrs do a form of ranger training for leadership purposes too?



Yes. The National Guard runs a Pre-Ranger course for its soldiers n Ft. Benning, GA.

[Dominique]

Ok, sorry for the stupid qestions but im new at this:
I get that you wear the tab after completing the school for both Ranger and non Ranger alike.
Can a non Ranger qualified troop do all of the same stuff as that troops that are qualified can and do the non qualified guys have a time limit w/in which they have to complete the school?

While non ranger qualified troops serve in some support and junior enlisted positions, all officers and NCO's are Ranger qualified, also, the junior enlisted guys are restricted from serving in some Regiment's more specialized subunits. And yes, if they want to stay in 75th, they'll have to successfully complete Ranger school within a set time period (also, you can actually finish Ranger school and NOT GRADUATE, you get a certificate of completion). And there are certain jobs, that are not in the 75th, that require you to be Ranger qualified for the position, or to be fully MOS qualified.


Do Reservist/National Guard offrs do a form of ranger training for leadership purposes too?

Yep. We have several Ranger qualified NCOs and officers, and two people are preparing to go to Ranger School. As a prerequisite, the Army National Guard runs a Pre-Ranger course to insure you're properly prepared for school (it wouldn't look good for a unit to send someone to school and have them flunk out, plus it costs the unit a nice little chuck of its training budget to send someone). Plus the unit will usually provide some training before sending you to the Pre-Ranger course (it's usually run by a Range qualified NCO, preferably someone who's either served in the Regiment, served as an RI, or as an instructor/training cadre at one of the "school houses".)


Interestingly enough, I think Army Ranger Wing (Irish Defence Forces special forces) was set up by some Irishmen who had done Ranger School in the US.

Correct, the original cadre for the Irish ARW were all graduates of the US Army's Ranger school (as are many other non-US troops).

[Britboy]

Okay, I think I understand how it works, RIP to get in for ORs, full course to stay, specialise or hold rank.

What I want to know is how this really differs from the US infantry as standard however.

I mean Ranger School is done by practically all US Infantry officers and many NCOs, right? So just the fact that Ranger School must be done by all officers and NCOs within the Rgr Regt does not actually seem that massive a difference from what is likely to be the proportion of Rgr-qualled offrs/NCOs in your average Light Infantry Bn, for example. Chances are, Rgr unit or non-Rgr unit, your officers WILL have done it and your NCOs very well may have.

So what then is the real difference between your average US lt inf bn and a Rgr bn?
Is it that the lt inf bn will have fewer Rgr qualled NCOs (again, practically all inf offrs do it so there is no difference at that level really)?
Is it that all the private soldiers have had to do RIP? If that is only a 2wk course is that really a massive difference?

You could very well say it is the the fact that Rgrs do things such as air assault and mountain warfare, but there again, any lt inf organisation could be expected to operate in mountains or mount up in helos and be proficient at it, no? And given a modicum of time to practice/prepare for it, and to get experience on-the-job, to be more than proficient surely. Especially if theyre in the Abn/Air Asslt/Mountain Divisions.

I suppose it is that the Rgr regt, coming under SOF, can be asked to undertake missions of national/Grand Strategic importance, whereas your average lt inf bn will be a lot more likely to get missions of tactical/operational importance only.

Is there really that much difference between the people of and things done by a Rgr unit and any other lt inf unit? Or are they rather similar, but one is used for missions of a different purpose than the other (i.e. strategic vs tac/op)?

[TehSuig]

You've thought of some good points there.

I've always liked to say that a unit like mine, an airborne infantry unit, can do they same missions the Rangers do just as well. We actually did their normal job when we were in Iraq a few years ago to allow them the flexability to do other things inside the country. I think the difference comes with them getting the opportunity to do more high risk missions.

That being said, I think you will come upon a higher quality of soldier in the Ranger Battalions. RIP may only be a 3 week course, but it's a son of bitch. The private who's got the balls and willpower to make it through has less of a chance of being the thorn in some squad leaders side. And if he does suck, he'll be sent to me in the 82nd to straighten him out.

As a side note to that, my old platoon sergeant had a beef with Ranger Batt for their quickness to send new privates packing. He claimed the NCOs in the batts weren't as good of leaders as the NCOs in a line airborne infantry unit, because if they ever had a problem with one of their privates, they'd just send them packing. The NCOs that pick them up in some other unit now have to figure out their issue and straighten them out. I think it's a logical arguement. And you can't call the guy biased, he spent 4 years in 2nd Batt before leaving to come to the 82nd.

[digrar]

Parent unit?
Guys, please forgive me being so green. Im 17 and highly interested in all things Army & plan on joining.


Lied on your profile and said you were 39. Integrity. Yours is in doubt.

[Dominique]

Okay, I think I understand how it works, RIP to get in for ORs, full course to stay, specialise or hold rank.

NCOs and Officers have to be Ranger qualified, and complete the Regimental Orientation Program (ROP), before assuming a leadership position. Plus they have to have already served time in a similar position with a conventional unit (All of their NCO's and officers are either promoted from within, or had already served as squad leaders, platoon leaders, etc. with other units before they were selected).


What I want to know is how this really differs from the US infantry as standard however.

I mean Ranger School is done by practically all US Infantry officers and many NCOs, right? So just the fact that Ranger School must be done by all officers and NCOs within the Rgr Regt does not actually seem that massive a difference from what is likely to be the proportion of Rgr-qualled offrs/NCOs in your average Light Infantry Bn, for example. Chances are, Rgr unit or non-Rgr unit, your officers WILL have done it and your NCOs very well may have.

So what then is the real difference between your average US lt inf bn and a Rgr bn?
Is it that the lt inf bn will have fewer Rgr qualled NCOs (again, practically all inf offrs do it so there is no difference at that level really)?
Is it that all the private soldiers have had to do RIP? If that is only a 2wk course is that really a massive difference?

You could very well say it is the the fact that Rgrs do things such as air assault and mountain warfare, but there again, any lt inf organisation could be expected to operate in mountains or mount up in helos and be proficient at it, no? And given a modicum of time to practice/prepare for it, and to get experience on-the-job, to be more than proficient surely. Especially if theyre in the Abn/Air Asslt/Mountain Divisions.

I suppose it is that the Rgr regt, coming under SOF, can be asked to undertake missions of national/Grand Strategic importance, whereas your average lt inf bn will be a lot more likely to get missions of tactical/operational importance only.

Is there really that much difference between the people of and things done by a Rgr unit and any other lt inf unit? Or are they rather similar, but one is used for missions of a different purpose than the other (i.e. strategic vs tac/op)?

The 75th is essentially an elite airborne light infantry unit, that specializes in raids and direct action missions, but you are correct that some of their missions could be performed by any well trained light infantry unit, but not all of them. The Rangers train to a higher standard, have better gear, specialized equipment, additional skills not found in standard infantry units (you're not going to have MFF and Combat Divers in the average scout platoon), in addition to training to support other SOF units or conduct their own missions. You're not going to see the average infantry scout platoon conducting what are essentially long range vehicle mounted patrols, jumping in setting up FARPs in middle of Afghanistan, doing joint raids with the SEALs and supporting Tier 1 units.

They also serve as a testing ground for new equipment and tactics, and as recruiting ground for other SOF units, namely SF and Delta (roughly 60% of the "shooters" in Delta have served in the 75th at some point - and that's publicly available info for those of you worried about OPSEC).

As far as Ranger school goes, it's not an SOF qualification course, it's a leadership course that teaches small unit leadership skills. The Army wants those same basic skills distributed to as many units as possible, and pretty much requires that active duty combat arms leaders (officers and NCOs) attend the course.

[Dominique]

Integrity. Yours is in doubt.

It seems to be in short supply in general lately.

[mrtopher39]

Uh, I did not lie on my profile saying I was 39. I never claimed to be 39, my usual ID was not available so I just attached the 39 to it.

And to anyone who replied to my question - thanks much for the info, its a huge help and has cleared away the fog.

[Dominique]

Uh, I did not lie on my profile saying I was 39. I never claimed to be 39, my usual ID was not available so I just attached the 39 to it.

Not to through this off track, but your profile clearly states that you are 39 years old, so you may want to make a change to it SOON.

[mrtopher39]

Dude,
I dont even remember creating a profile, it took about three weeks before they allowed me to even post on this site.
Ill try to figure it out, thanks.

[Erik2a4]

Okay, I think I understand how it works, RIP to get in for ORs, full course to stay, specialise or hold rank.

Close enough p-)


Chances are, Rgr unit or non-Rgr unit, your officers WILL have done it and your NCOs very well may have.It depends. The Light/Airborne Infantry Community is quite big on going to Ranger School for Officers and NCOs. The Mech community not as much. It all depends upon command climate.


So what then is the real difference between your average US lt inf bn and a Rgr bn?
Is it that the lt inf bn will have fewer Rgr qualled NCOs (again, practically all inf offrs do it so there is no difference at that level really)?
Is it that all the private soldiers have had to do RIP? If that is only a 2wk course is that really a massive difference?

You could very well say it is the the fact that Rgrs do things such as air assault and mountain warfare, but there again, any lt inf organisation could be expected to operate in mountains or mount up in helos and be proficient at it, no? And given a modicum of time to practice/prepare for it, and to get experience on-the-job, to be more than proficient surely. Especially if theyre in the Abn/Air Asslt/Mountain Divisions.

I suppose it is that the Rgr regt, coming under SOF, can be asked to undertake missions of national/Grand Strategic importance, whereas your average lt inf bn will be a lot more likely to get missions of tactical/operational importance only.

Is there really that much difference between the people of and things done by a Rgr unit and any other lt inf unit? Or are they rather similar, but one is used for missions of a different purpose than the other (i.e. strategic vs tac/op)?You've hit the nail on the head. Any organization can be outstanding if it has four things: 1) Ability to hire it's own people 2) Ability to fire it's own people 3) A sufficient budget and 4) sufficient training time.

In my view this is what sets Regiment apart; the Army gives it the tools and the mission set to avoid training distractions and hire, train, retain to a more difficult standard. As a result good leaders seek them out of their own accord.

I really do think they have a good system that works in Officer selection and NCO development. Especially the NCOs. Sergeants that grew up in Regiment are usually top-notch.

They really do have a different mission set than a Light/Airborne/Air Assault Infantry Bn. (Note: US Army doesn't have any Mountain qualified Battalions, despite the name of the 10th Mountain Division).

Think of it this way: a private comes into the army, passes Basic and AIT as an Infantryman, goes to Airborne School. He then attends RIP as a selection course (remember 14 days can be made a long time; some SOF selection courses are less than that). If he passes he goes to a Bn., where he trains hard and deploys hard for 6-12 months. Then he goes to Pre-Ranger course. If he passes Pre-Ranger he goes to Ranger School. If he fails Ranger school due to a "lack of motivation" he is "released for standards" to the needs of the Army. If he passes he will return to the Regiment as a Specialist until an NCO position opens up. I know a fellow that spent his time from E-2 until E-7 (Platoon Sergeant/Sergeant First Class) in the same platoon.

For an Officer: Graduate IOBC and go to Ranger School. Go to first unit. Successful PL time. Put in CV, eval reports, letter of recommendation and request signed by Bde Commander to Regiment after 12 mos PL time. Regiment has an internal board to select new Officers. If selected will attend ROP. If you pass ROP and murder board you are assigned to a PL position in Regiment. Will stay 2-3 years until leave to attend CPT's Course, then go to a line infantry unit, repeat cycle.

Same for Company Commanders, who do not need prior service in the Ranger Regiment, but must have a Ranger tab and successful Company Command time. All Combat Arms Majors and above must have been CPTs in the Regiment.

[dacanadianbomb]

Large post = Large dingus. Right? p-)

Hell, I probably lost everyone half-way in. Next time I'll include flashing gifs, anime on youtube, and a pie-chart.

Btw, if one wants to be an Officer in US SF, they're still going to send you to Ranger School after the Q course. Just a little FYI.

Remember, in the US Army we like to mix **** up. For instance, Special Forces is both a unit and a qualification, but not everyone in the unit is qualified, and not everyone who is qualified is in the unit, although to get the qualification you have to earn the MOS that is only prevalent in that unit. Also, all members of SF are SOF, but not all SOF are SF. All Rangers are SOF, but not all Rangers are Ranger qualified.


Ahh I see what your trying to pull off here, you cant fool me with that .ppt :-)
Trying to wrap ones head around that is ****e to give you an aneurism.

[Asp]

Why wouldn't you?


This reminds me of what Louis Armstrong said to a woman who asked him what jazz was:

"If you gotta ask, you ain't never gonna know."

[ibstolidude]

Another question:
Do you know why Mike Durant is wearing the same unit patch plus a beret that Shughart / Gordon wear w/o berets?

Here is the most likely answer (don't know the photos)- but one that will be ignored as it isn't cool.

Senior NCOs, such as Shughart & Gordan, are required to have a specific "style" photo in their personnel file.

[muttbutt]

Stoli has spoken, dicussion over.

[Erik2a4]

Here is the most likely answer (don't know the photos)- but one that will be ignored as it isn't cool.

Senior NCOs, such as Shughart & Gordan, are required to have a specific "style" photo in their personnel file.

Edit: Please disregard.

[ibstolidude]

Edit: Please disregard.
That would be my guess. No insight, but just a guess.

[El Diablo Rojo]

Quick question... I've been under the impression that RIP was a 4-week (https://www.infantry.army.mil/75thranger/content/recruiting/RIP%20for%20Web.pdf) selection course? Did they cut it down or something?

[Lethal Lou]

Interesting aside. One of the huge challenges in the Ranger battalions is keeping your support staff on board. Most guys who want to be cooks don't want to be Rangers and most guys who want to be Rangers don't want to be cooks! Ditto for the guys in S1/S4 shops. Since those are all extremely competitive MOS's for promotion above E-5, the solution was to send them to bolo badge schools. Every school was worth at least 5 promotion points. All the cooks had the chance to cycle thru air assault and in-house jumpmaster schools; most went through MOUT and JOTC training. When there were wing exchange jumps they picked up reciprocal foreign jump wings. At least one guy I know went to sniper school. And of course there's "patchfinder", scout swimmer, etc. Two/three years later when the guy is over in Korea being evaluated against his peers at a promotion board, all those schools really make them stand out. Especially once they hit E-7 or above levels.

[Britboy]

Interesting aside. One of the huge challenges in the Ranger battalions is keeping your support staff on board. Most guys who want to be cooks don't want to be Rangers and most guys who want to be Rangers don't want to be cooks! Ditto for the guys in S1/S4 shops. Since those are all extremely competitive MOS's for promotion above E-5, the solution was to send them to bolo badge schools. Every school was worth at least 5 promotion points. All the cooks had the chance to cycle thru air assault and in-house jumpmaster schools; most went through MOUT and JOTC training. When there were wing exchange jumps they picked up reciprocal foreign jump wings. At least one guy I know went to sniper school. And of course there's "patchfinder", scout swimmer, etc. Two/three years later when the guy is over in Korea being evaluated against his peers at a promotion board, all those schools really make them stand out. Especially once they hit E-7 or above levels.

TBH, is there actually a requirement for Rangers/any other force to have cooks qualled up to the same level as their infanteers? A cook isn't going to be there alongside the lads in a rifle section, and presumably in the US ORBAT, a cook is not going to be with the rangers raiding a house or such?

Surely a cook who will be cooking back at camp or possibly in a 'rear area' does not need to be fully versed in platoon attacks and such? I understand theres not much of a safe rear area in current '360 degree' warfare/COIN, but equally, aren't there FOBs and other permanent/semipermanent bases that are secure for these admin functions now?

I can understand some may want to do it, but none of our cooks (TA inf unit) do CIC, unless perhaps they were already inf (and hence did the course for that first) and then decided to re-capbadge as a cook... There again we have had cooks along with us for exercises where they actually wanted to do the crawling-around-in-the-mud, throwing-grenades thing, even if it wasn't a requirement, they were keen, and we were glad to have them along.

I don't know if cooks attached to 16 Air Asslt Bde/Para Regt have to do P Coy, but I believe the Royal Marines have a tradition whereby they get all their support jobs from GD RMs (i.e. commandos) rather than recruiting them as cooks or whatever else from the beginning.

I guess they reckon this means if the sh1t hits the fan they can use cooks as cas replacements in the Cdo units, since they have all done the full Cdo Course and time as a rifleman. Also good for RMs who want to do the infanteering side of life but then might later want to pick up a trade like vehicle mechanic, cook, etc before leaving, so's they can do that trade on civvy street, and pick up quals ready for it.

There again some of 3 Cdo Bdes support units are joint, they have Army as well as RMs, and some Navy too, so I wouldn't be surprised if RLC chefs (who of course wouldn't have been a GD RM) are involved in it as well in some way. I'm sure someone from Cdo Logs Regt or whoever else does CSS for the formation could put me right.

[mrtopher39]

What is a bolo badge?
I have so many questions since I dont really know what all the abbreviations mean?
Also, is a ranger/ delta guy still calssified as an 11B whereas an SF is an actual MOS like 18A / B/ C etc. Why is that? Do SF guys tend to leave the groups and use thier skill sets elsewhere like a regular line platoon, or do they loose the MOS when they leave their SF group?
Sorry if its a stupid question but.....

[Erik2a4]

What is a bolo badge?
I have so many questions since I dont really know what all the abbreviations mean?
Also, is a ranger/ delta guy still calssified as an 11B whereas an SF is an actual MOS like 18A / B/ C etc. Why is that? Do SF guys tend to leave the groups and use thier skill sets elsewhere like a regular line platoon, or do they loose the MOS when they leave their SF group?
Sorry if its a stupid question but.....

There are Dept of the Army requirements for certain positions that are Branch/MOS immaterial. For instance, ROTC instructor positions include SF and Infantry, amongst others.

So, although Special Forces is a Branch, it is possible to be assigned to a position outside a Special Forces Group depending upon DoD or Dept of the Army requirements. Same for the other branches.

The Special Forces Regiment can also "expel" certain members who have a "hiccup" in their careers, in which case they become needs of the Army. In this case they may still retain their SF tab, but rebranch or reclass MOS.

[mrtopher39]

Thanks much for the help w/ this. Eventually Ill figure this stuff out.

[mrtopher39]

So then a ranger or delta guy wouldnt have a different MOS designation than a 101 or 82nd airborne guy for instance?

[BlackJack22]

I dont know if anybody has seen this but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ_g9-sPvSw

[Mordecai]

...The Special Forces Regiment can also "expel" certain members who have a "hiccup" in their careers, in which case they become needs of the Army. In this case they may still retain their SF tab, but rebranch or reclass MOS.

There are quite a few SF tabbed soldiers (mostly 18X's) in the regular Army these days... This is mostly due to not being exactly what we need, but not having done anything to merit them having their tabs revoked.

There are also those who have had their Tab orders revoked. In this instance their MOS will revert back to that of the one prior to becoming SF. The only exception to this would be a recent graduate of the 18D course who would also have 68W MOS as a secondary/tertiary MOS.

Crip

[Lethal Lou]

Bolo badge is the nickname for an award that is perceived as not that difficult to obtain. For example: airborne school was 4 weeks; air assault school was 1 week. The respective badges are worn in the same place on the uniform. Also the pathfinder (patchfinder) school was often considered an easy school by many soldiers. Of course, it's all perception. If you busted your butt to get a particular patch, you would place more value on in than someone who skated thru the course. I got 2 heat strokes in Panama going thru Jungle Operations Training Course but to me it was still a bolo badge compared to going to other courses.

[Lethal Lou]

Re Ranger Cooks. MSG Devine was six and a half feet to totally intimidating cook. He told YOU how you wanted your "aigs" and you took'em with a smile. He was Ranger, master airborne wings, expert with any weapon in the battalion. And he was a cook. His guys were motivated and while you didn't expect them to have the expertise of a Ranger company line doggie (they didn't practice drills etc 14 hours a day) they would still put in a respectable showing matched against a straightleg infantryman in a regular unit. The key thing here is esprit de corps. By making sure that your clerks can run 10 miles every morning with the rest of the crowd; that your cooks know how to Australian rappel; that your medics shoot expert; that your chaplain is a qualified jumpmaster - you raise the overall average expertise level of the entire unit. Sure you didn't necessarily have to have your supply sergeant go to scout swimmer school but it certainly made a difference in tone. Everyone was part of the organization - no one was left out. And everyone pitched in to get the mission accomplished, no one had a 9-5 attitude about the operation. That alone was a great payback compared with some other units.

[Britboy]

Bolo badge is the nickname for an award that is perceived as not that difficult to obtain. For example: airborne school was 4 weeks; air assault school was 1 week. The respective badges are worn in the same place on the uniform. Also the pathfinder (patchfinder) school was often considered an easy school by many soldiers. Of course, it's all perception. If you busted your butt to get a particular patch, you would place more value on in than someone who skated thru the course. I got 2 heat strokes in Panama going thru Jungle Operations Training Course but to me it was still a bolo badge compared to going to other courses.

Pathfinders easy? How odd. In the UK system Pathfinders have quite a reputation...

As for the rebranching questions earlier up the page, there are 'E2' jobs which can be done by anyone within the service, or even services. I think some prerequisites could be needed depending on what the job is, but this sort of thing is often known as 'extra-regimental duties', i.e. employment away from your parent unit, and officers also have 'broadening' tours, where they'll take 2-3yrs out of their specific field and do something completely different. Gives them a wider perspective, which comes in useful later on when they want promotion or suchlike.

[Lethal Lou]

I'm not trying to disrespect pathfinders by my comment. That is a school I never attended. My understanding is that the primary function of a pathfinder is to lrrp in ahead of the main body, scout/mark the drop zone and liaise with the aircraft for the drop. Pre-GPS, pre-strobe, pre-satellite photo recon, etc this was no doubt a challenging operation. It still requires motivation and a specific constellation of skills. It would seem more difficult than air assault school but less difficult than Ranger school; more difficult than Jungle Operations Training, perhaps on par with SERE school, less intellectually/ physically challenging than HALO school. Always a matter of degree and placing it all in context.

[muttbutt]

[quote=Britboy;3863657]Pathfinders easy? How odd. In the UK system Pathfinders have quite a reputation...
/quote]
Yep but the British PF's's would be considered a SO unit in anyone elses military, in the UK they are just a regular if elite specialist one, plus more then one man has failed PF selection and gone on to pass UKSF selectionp-)

[Erik2a4]

[quote=Britboy;3863657]Pathfinders easy? How odd. In the UK system Pathfinders have quite a reputation...
/quote]
Yep but the British PF's's would be considered a SO unit in anyone elses military, in the UK they are just a regular if elite specialist one, plus more then one man has failed PF selection and gone on to pass UKSF selectionp-)

You're getting the names confused again. :)

Pathfinder school, a school which certain people can attend, isn't necessarily easy, but more of a technical school. It is not a selection course, nor a requirement to be in a Pathfinder unit (of which only two that I know of remain.)

The Para's Pathfinder platoon is more similiar to the Ranger Regiment's Reconnaissance Detachment (now Company).

This discussion reminds me of the one on arrse about US versus Commonwealth Warrant Officers. Never was the old saying more true: one people divided by a common language. p-)