U.S. Army beret wear change for Non-Coms

[LineDoggie]

Let the Gheyness begin

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/01/army_nco_year_011109w/

Senior Army leaders issued an operations order Jan. 7 officially implementing the Year of the NCO, a multifaceted initiative for enhancing and acknowledging NCO contributions to the Army.
In addition to involving the redesign of several institutions and programs, the Year of the NCO will prompt some major policy changes, such as authorizing the wear of NCO rank insignia on the beret and the expansion of civilian education opportunities.
At a joint press conference Jan. 5 at Fort Bliss, Texas, Army Secretary Pete Geren, Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey and Sgt. Maj. of the Army Kenneth Preston said they wanted to inform the country, Congress and young people about NCOs, and the career opportunities available to those who join the Army.


In a letter announcing the Year of the NCO, the leaders said, “NCOs are the keepers of our standards, from the recruiting station to basic training, to combat zones, from civil affairs to medicine, to logistics, natural disaster assistance, to graveside attendance at Arlington — whether active, Guard or Reserve, our NCOs take the lead.”
The order (OPORD 08-12-161200) and annexes together total nearly 50 pages.
The document assigns specific tasks to field commands and staff agencies throughout the force in support of the program’s four major objectives:


• Enhance the education of the NCO Corps through several initiatives, including the launch of the online Army Career Tracker system; the transformation of the NCO Education System from the Warrior Leader Course to the Sergeants Major Course; an increase in the number of schools participating in the Servicemembers Opportunity Colleges-Army Degree program; and the establishment of structured and guided self-development programs.


• Enhance physical and mental fitness by implementing a health-screening program in NCO schools, much like that conducted at the Army War College for senior officers, and by establishing master fitness and mental health courses as part of the structured self-development system.


• Enhance leadership skills in the NCO Corps by formalizing the Audie Murphy and Sgt. Morales Club competitions throughout the Army; field a new NCO promotion certificate that will be signed by the secretary of the Army and the chief of staff; establish a four-day pass system that can be used by commanders to recognize outstanding NCOs; and establish an NCO “Wall of Fame” at the Pentagon to identify soldiers who exemplify the competencies, dedication and commitment of the NCO Corps.


• Launch several “pride in service” initiatives that acknowledge the value of the NCO Corps to the Army and the nation.
Included will be the second publication of “Long Hard Road,” a book recounting the contributions of NCOs to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan; maintaining a Year of the NCO Web site; authorizing the wear of NCO rank insignia on the beret; changing the name of the Sergeants Major Academy to better reflect its focus on the entire NCO Corps; producing an “Army Strong” television ad that focuses on NCOs; and upgrading the NCO Museum at Fort Bliss, Texas.
While work on the initiatives is underway, dates for implementation have not been announced.

[el borracho]

Senior Army leaders came up with this? Sounds like a bunch of officers trying to tell the noncoms "see, we do give a sh!t about you guys." The only anti-NCO sentiments I've ever heard were from officers who didn't like being shown up by someone without a commission. It sounds like they're trying to convince themselves that NCOs matter since most NCOs and lower ranks were already aware of that fact. The rank on the beret thing is pointless, it's already right in the middle of the chest, so it's obviously not an identification issue. Do they think that a little extra piece of bling will make troops reenlist to strive for an NCO promotion?

[David]

a. going to the audie murphy or sgt. morales boards doesn't make an nco into a good leader, it makes an nco into somebody that is good at boards. whooptie doo.
b. wow, an nco promotion certificate that is signed by the secretary of the army and the chief of staff, thats what I always wanted!
c. establish a 4 day pass system for outstanding NCO's...whats that even mean? Most people that aren't pieces of crap and don't ask for 4 days every week, get them when they request them, so why do we need this?
d. If I'm not on that stupid wall at the Pentagon, I'm going to punch somebody in the face.
e. wow, rank on the beret. whatever, just less crap I have to buy when I pcs.
f. all this is is a recruiting ploy, if they really wanted to make the army appealing to the youth of today, they'd make it the "Year of the 10-year Specialist" and talk about how you can join the army, get promoted to e4 and do absolutely nothing for a long ass time and still get the benefits and pay, because thats what kids these days want to do...nothing. that and be homo****** sociopaths.
g. whatever, i think i'm going to go smoke my whole squad now for being born, hows that for year of the nco.

[EVIL NADMAN]

a. going to the audie murphy or sgt. morales boards doesn't make an nco into a good leader, it makes an nco into somebody that is good at boards. whooptie doo.
b. wow, an nco promotion certificate that is signed by the secretary of the army and the chief of staff, thats what I always wanted!
c. establish a 4 day pass system for outstanding NCO's...whats that even mean? Most people that aren't pieces of crap and don't ask for 4 days every week, get them when they request them, so why do we need this?
d. If I'm not on that stupid wall at the Pentagon, I'm going to punch somebody in the face.
e. wow, rank on the beret. whatever, just less crap I have to buy when I pcs.
f. all this is is a recruiting ploy, if they really wanted to make the army appealing to the youth of today, they'd make it the "Year of the 10-year Specialist" and talk about how you can join the army, get promoted to e4 and do absolutely nothing for a long ass time and still get the benefits and pay, because thats what kids these days want to do...nothing. that and be homo****** sociopaths.
g. whatever, i think i'm going to go smoke my whole squad now for being born, hows that for year of the nco.
Man could you say this any better? I think I'm going to tear the sh!t out of my squad too! I agree with you too about the 10 year SPC. They don't want to do sh!t... Hell I have team leaders that in my squad I went to basic, AIT and airborne with and I am getting promoted before them... NOW HOW SAD IS THAT!

[helomech]

What are the Audie Murphy and Sgt Morales Clubs'?I know who Audie Murphy is but I don't know how they're referred to here

[David]

What are the Audie Murphy and Sgt Morales Clubs'?I know who Audie Murphy is but I don't know how they're referred to here

kind of like promotion boards, but you have to goto multiple boards and they're considerably more stringent from what I've been told, can't remember how many total. and the boards are ran by senior enlisted members of the clubs. they can have their boards, I went to my 2 boards that count, the ones that pay me.

[Connaught Ranger]

How about a Pay Bonus and and some extra leave for them instead of a piece of paper and the right to put a pin in their bonnets p-)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

SPC4: shield of sham.

It's an art form.

:)

E5s beat me up when I made sergeant as initiation into the club. Good times.

[Big Bad Bob]

I agree on the sham shield-ers, E-4 Mafia.

Rank on the beret.....wow thats why i want to be an NCO :roll:

[el borracho]

g. whatever, i think i'm going to go smoke my whole squad now for being born, hows that for year of the nco.

Sounds like a great start!

[CG51]

SPC4: shield of sham.

It's an art form.

:)

E5s beat me up when I made sergeant as initiation into the club. Good times.

Heh, I remember when I made Petty Officer Third Class (E-4), I got punched on the chevron so many times that my arm was solid black to the elbow.

[Hollis]

How about a Pay Bonus and and some extra leave for them instead of a piece of paper and the right to put a pin in their bonnets p-)


Sage advice.......... Obviously from someone who served. Pay increase is greatly preferred over some piece of paper or pin.

I use to say, "I don't care what you call me, just pay me more."

[Albatross]

I wonder how much time and money was wasted on this. Seriously don't think an NCO worth his salt would give a damn about his rank on a beret. Got to love it.

E-4 is the best rank in the military. Been around enough to know better, to stupid to care.

[citizen soldier]

Yet another solution in search of a problem and a mess of problems still being ignored.

CS

[b.scheller]

The American army is doing a little too much regulation changing, from the difference in the whole ACU, which I still thinks looks bad and isn't even the proper selection of camouflage colours for most major fields of battle, to the dress uniform change which I think looks the worst, especially the fact that putting trousers (blue ones at that) into the boots will be a regulation.

[kopema]

How about a Pay Bonus and and some extra leave for them instead of a piece of paper and the right to put a pin in their bonnets p-)

Why does this whole "NCO Appreciation" thing remind me so much of Secretary's Day? The executives get fat bonuses, and the 'human resources' get a pat on the head and a gold star.

This isn't just demeaning - noncoms are used to that. This is a lot worse - it's patronizing. It looks like the people who came up with this idea forgot these are grown men they're talking about.

[J-Bott]

I hope the Army switches the rank on the beret to the same velcro square as the uniform. Then everything I'm wearing can get stuck together!

I wonder if anybody has submitted the idea for an ACU beret?

[Dan2004]

Heh, I remember when I made Petty Officer Third Class (E-4), I got punched on the chevron so many times that my arm was solid black to the elbow.

I got blood-pinned when I made SPC. Then I got beat up when they lateralled me. :|

Still recovering,

Dan

[AroundTheCorner]

The American army is doing a little too much regulation changing, from the difference in the whole ACU, which I still thinks looks bad and isn't even the proper selection of camouflage colours for most major fields of battle, to the dress uniform change which I think looks the worst, especially the fact that putting trousers (blue ones at that) into the boots will be a regulation.

chuch. u got my vote

[dave81]

I wonder if anybody has submitted the idea for an ACU beret?I was at the commissary today on Ft Bragg and saw a Jewish chaplain in ACUs wearing an ACU-pattern yarmulke (skullcap or kippah). I asked him if it was custom-made or issued and he laughingly announced, "Issued!" I thought he was joking until he took it off his head and showed me the inside of it, where sure enough, "US ARMY CHAPLAIN CORPS" (or something to that effect) and the "Ten Commandments" insignia of Jewish chaplains were imprinted on the inside. He said it arrived with the Passover supplies.

PS: All these freakin' senior leaders always want to leave some kind of freakin' "legacy" to be remembered by, and all it does is give us more BS to deal with. Every few years there's some new "creed" or pledge we have to memorize, or else it's new mandatory uniform item(s) we have to buy.

[ZoneOne]

I was at the commissary today on Ft Bragg and saw a Jewish chaplain in ACUs wearing an ACU-pattern yarmulke (skullcap or kippah). I asked him if it was custom made or issued and he laughingly announced, "Issued!" I thought he was joking until he took it off his head and showed my the inside of it, where sure enough, "US ARMY CHAPLAIN CORPS" (or something to that effect) and the "Ten Commandments" insignia of Jewish chaplains were imprinted on the inside. He said it arrived with the Passover supplies.

I first saw them when I was going through BCT. I wound up attending Jewish services for the free food, and then stuck around for my denominations' services. :-)

Beware of the SPC 4 Mafia - Biggest "do-nothings" I have ever encountered.



I wonder if anybody has submitted the idea for an ACU beret?

The last thing we need is another Gen. Shinseki deciding it would be his/her legacy to change the beret. I believe the beret should be held for Infantry, Ranger, SF - but obliviously Gen. Shinseki didn't agree. It should be something earned, not just given as soon as you graduate BCT.

[paracrusader]

whatever, i think i'm going to go smoke my whole squad now for being born, hows that for year of the nco.

Great idea! It's the year of log PT, buddy carries and 25-milers. Sucks to be in my squad in 2009.

Do they really think so little of us that this is what they do? I thought we were finally making progress. I am embarrassed. First off, they're going to take an already-horrible piece of headgear and make it even worse. And, WTF, a wall of NCO's? I went to the museum at Fort Bliss, and it's garbage, and besides that, it's at Fort Bliss, so who the hell is ever going to see it besides a bunch of SGM academy students?

If they cared, they'd take all those millions of dollars they'll be flushing away on this crap and buy us some gear! Or, for that matter, they could really do something for the NCO corps and get rid of all these automatic promotion policies, and make it easier to get rid of sub-standard douchebags. I can think of a million ways to better invest this effort and money. This is ridiculous and insulting.

[Flounder]

Common sense and good judgement will never be an obstacle to government operations.

[KJV1611]

Can the Army get any more gay? We seriously have wars going on and there worried about putting a rank on the beret???
:bash:

[citizen soldier]

Can the Army get any more gay? We seriously have wars going on and there worried about putting a rank on the beret???:bash:

Man what ARE you thinking? The beret INSTANTLY issued me self respect and super warrior powers. Rank can only make me cooler!

CS

(who hates the basque shepherds hat.)

[Royal]

Let the Gheyness begin


The order (OPORD 08-12-161200) and annexes together total nearly 50 pages.

Our OPORD for going into Afghanistan was less than half that length :roll:

[LineDoggie]

Our OPORD for going into Afghanistan was less than half that length :roll: I wouldnt be surprised if Overlords was less than that as well.

[Ubar]

Warrior Leader Course

Is that a real course??

[Desert_Donkey]

Is that a real course??

It is.

Wasn't terribly impressed with it.

We can do better.

[California Joe]

I feel badly for you guys. It seems as if there are very few traditions that the Army is willing to leave alone and allow them to continue unmolested throughout our brief history. I would think that a sense of tradition and history would be a selling point for recruiting. I would think respect and recognition of achievement instead of quick fixes to non existent problems would be a better course of action...I've always admired the British military for their sense of history and esprit de corps among the Regiments. But sadly even their traditions are being eroded.

[Desert_Donkey]

I feel badly for you guys. It seems as if there are very few traditions that the Army is willing to leave alone and allow them to continue unmolested throughout our brief history. I would think that a sense of tradition and history would be a selling point for recruiting. I would think respect and recognition of achievement instead of quick fixes to non existent problems would be a better course of action...I've always admired the British military for their sense of history and esprit de corps among the Regiments. But sadly even their traditions are being eroded.


Traditional accoutrements went the way of the Dodo in the US Army some years ago, in the great haste to bring uniformity to every corner of the Army. Now, distinctive unit or branch insignia, clothing, boots, hats, gloves, etc. are heavily frowned upon, if not totally prohibited, because other Soldiers who haven't earned such things might get their sensitive little feelings hurt by someone wearing something they don't have.

It's disgusting.

[dave81]

...because other Soldiers who haven't earned such things might get their sensitive little feelings hurt by someone wearing something they don't have.

It's disgusting.Hence the creation of the CAB.

[LineDoggie]

I would qualify the CAB with this.

In My unit we were filled out with about 45 Non 11B's before Deployment. They filled all 11B Infantry slots in the company (from Rifleman to PSG. in one case), they trained for 6 months as 11B DMOS, deployed in 11B slots to Iraq performing the same duties as those of us who are 11B. Most were 19K & 12B/21B series.

Several were either KIA/WIA and My Bro Sam who was a NBC NCO and went on every single patrol until a double 155 IED Went off destroying his Left arm would not have gotten even the CAB under the original MOS restrictions. He finally had his hand amputated before Christmas for a July 4th, 2005 incident, hopefully he keeps the rest of the arm.

I'm very Proud of My CIB, more so than my Purple Heart, but I wouldnt belittle those men who do fight regularly as Infantry without holding the MOS. (Sad thing is that if they had gone to a 2 week school they would hold the MOS, but 6 months of training in that MOS, All Verified by RA didnt mean ****). 2 I Know of refused the CAB, and after DEROS, went to school, got the MOS and went Back to Earn a CIB because of the stigma of the "Pogue Badge"....

Now PX/DFAC guards who have a Rocket land 800M away shouldnt get that same recognition, and that abuse should be stomped on vigorously. I agree that certain things should be earned, And hate that friggen french beanie shinseki foisted on us.

[BrianT]

You mean that beanie that used to mean you were a highly trained stud?

[LineDoggie]

1970's Tanker?

[dave81]

1980s Female?

[LineDoggie]

1980s Female?
OMG I forgot about those monstrocities, last time I was in a Company with Females was 1984

[KilledByAGirl]

Yeah, I don't see the point in this. As a non-com, I can say that officers are the ones who care to look special, so they can wear their rank on their berets all they want, but I like my unit pin better for myself... although, my unit's slogan on it is pretty lame. I liked my old one better.

[LineDoggie]

Yeah, I don't see the point in this. As a non-com, I can say that officers are the ones who care to look special, so they can wear their rank on their berets all they want, but I like my unit pin better for myself... although, my unit's slogan on it is pretty lame. I liked my old one better.


Cant be as Gay as My Current one:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/Image2155.gif
FTW!

[paracrusader]

It is.

Wasn't terribly impressed with it.

We can do better.

Trying to "do better" is what has made that course a waste of time since it was called PLDC. Maybe it's good for non-combat arms types, but it was insulting to us 11Bs that went through. Some traditions just need to go away. When the big army gets it's hands on something, they ruin it. That course is a chief example of something that battalions or even brigades could do themselves, given the resouces and minimal guidance.

On that note, the other day I was doing BAR and during a break in training some pogue 1SG told me to "be a leader" and fix my PC. I looked at him, puzzled, and he told me that it should be parallel with the marching surface. Hadn't heard that since basic training, 9 years ago. Is this a pogue thing? He didn't have a combat patch. Funny, I've done my job- led men in combat- and it never required my hat to be "parallel to the marching surface". Didn't effect my leadership. I'm just sayin'.

[Bombtrack]

The US army should just get rid of berets all together. You guys can't wear them worth a damn.

[paracrusader]

The US army shoudl jsut get rid of berets all together. You guys can't wear them worth a damn.

Woah, hey now! The maroon beret, for example, is worn with great pride, and you can count on it being worn properly. An inproperly formed or worn beret on a paratrooper's head will not make it mroe than a few steps before someone is all over it.

That black one, on the other hand... Egh, not even worth bringing up, nevermind!

Linedoggie: What unit does that horrible crest come from? I'd "forget" me beret every day if I had to wear that!

[Dan2004]

Linedoggie: What unit does that horrible crest come from? I'd "forget" me beret every day if I had to wear that!

42ID, the "Rainbow Division."

[Bombtrack]

Woah, hey now! The maroon beret, for example, is worn with great pride, and you can count on it being worn properly. An inproperly formed or worn beret on a paratrooper's head will not make it mroe than a few steps before someone is all over it.

That black one, on the other hand... Egh, not even worth bringing up, nevermind!

Linedoggie: What unit does that horrible crest come from? I'd "forget" me beret every day if I had to wear that!


Good point. I did have those stupid black berets in mind.

[paracrusader]

Oh, OK, makes sense. I've seen the rainbow patch in Afghanistan and Iraq. Poor guys never heard the end of it.

[Beowulf]

On that note, the other day I was doing BAR and during a break in training some pogue 1SG told me to "be a leader" and fix my PC. I looked at him, puzzled, and he told me that it should be parallel with the marching surface. Hadn't heard that since basic training, 9 years ago. Is this a pogue thing? He didn't have a combat patch. Funny, I've done my job- led men in combat- and it never required my hat to be "parallel to the marching surface". Didn't effect my leadership. I'm just sayin'.

****bag.

..............

hehe

[paracrusader]

Traditional accoutrements went the way of the Dodo in the US Army some years ago, in the great haste to bring uniformity to every corner of the Army. Now, distinctive unit or branch insignia, clothing, boots, hats, gloves, etc. are heavily frowned upon, if not totally prohibited, because other Soldiers who haven't earned such things might get their sensitive little feelings hurt by someone wearing something they don't have.

I agree 110%. However, the army is just too big for brigades, regiments, battalions, and even companies NOT to develop their own personalities and small traditions. Some even endure for years after everyone has left. Nothing like our friends from the UK, unfortunately for us.

They haven't taken away our blue cords and discs yet, but it's a matter of time, I'm afraid. Same with the jump boots with class A's, although that horrible new mall cop uniform makes makes the uniform ugly anyway.

*sigh* I hate the army. I LOVE my job, and have LOVED most of the units I have been in. But I HATE the army...

[paracrusader]

****bag.


Absolutely! :)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Woah, hey now! The maroon beret, for example, is worn with great pride, and you can count on it being worn properly. An inproperly formed or worn beret on a paratrooper's head will not make it mroe than a few steps before someone is all over it.

That black one, on the other hand... Egh, not even worth bringing up, nevermind!

Linedoggie: What unit does that horrible crest come from? I'd "forget" me beret every day if I had to wear that!x2. Tell a paratrooper, Ranger or SF that they shouldn't wear their beret.

[KilledByAGirl]

Cant be as Gay as My Current one:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/Image2155.gif
FTW!

ohhh, I feel sorry for you. That's got to be the worst one possible!

Mine's not embarrassing, just not suited for everyone! "Iron Men of Metz"
It's certainly not creative... and still wouldn't be even if I was a man. I realize it's from the division's success in Metz in WWII, but.


The US army should just get rid of berets all together. You guys can't wear them worth a damn.

ehhh, it goes both ways. On one hand, it's the Army, so there's plenty of morons, as well as people who don't care. On the other hand, there's plenty of people who take pride in their uniform.

[LineDoggie]

Worst offenders I ever saw for Pizza Berets were Military Professors at USMA. Even LTG. Lennox("Supe") apologized & told us in our Inbriefing to make on the spot corrections of them.

[paracrusader]

Now PX/DFAC guards who have a Rocket land 800M away shouldnt get that same recognition, and that abuse should be stomped on vigorously. I agree that certain things should be earned, And hate that friggen french beanie shinseki foisted on us.

I was definitely a hater when this badge came out. The first time I saw it I was at a purple heart ceremony in KAF, shortly after it came out. GEN Abizaid was pinning about a dozen guys from my company. So there's a mass formation, and all these fobbits come in and I see 2 of them wearing it, both SFC's. So one says to the other, "boy, that looks nice!" The other replies, "thank god that rocket came in, it landed right off the airfield!" I was stunned, especially since I knew that our FO's, among others, would get the same badge for actually fighting.

But from what I've seen, they've tightened up on that award. 3x sworn statements, and must have been in personal danger. I've seen them turned down because their only justification was one IED incident. Maybe that was a unit thing. Anyways, anyone who's been around a bit will not assume you got yours for nothing, unless you give them reason to believe that. And, for that matter, there are definitely some - not many, mind you- CIB wearing infantrymen who did not earn theirs.

[aj-0311]

OPORD 08-12-161200 concerning the wearing of rank on the beret has been pulled.

It's not going to happen.

Why the hell couldn't they have done that with the ASU, ACU's and the beret? Damn Army.

[Pappy]

Cant be as Gay as My Current one:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/Image2155.gif
FTW!

HAHAHAHAHA... ooh I'm sorry.. I thought the patch was bad enough, but that crest is 20x worse.

As for the rank on the berets, come on! First of all, Bombtrack is correct in respect to our leg-black berets. I'd say about 75% of the Army can't or doesn't care to wear a beret correctly. On top of that, the whole notion of the beret making everybody special makes me sick. Now they want to tart it up even more. I've got rank on my PC, so why shouldn't we just all go back to that? I'm VERY thankful that my Brigade has authorized wearing of the PC during the duty day and my Battalion requires it. Oh my god, a hat that I can put on with only one hand?! It's a revelation!

Oh and apparently we have our savior of the special now as the Secretary of Veterans Affairs. Maybe he'll require veterans to wear the c unt caps with all their patches sewn on in order to get benefits... "because it'll make them feel special"

Haha, sorry for the rant people.

Edit: oh, I'm glad they repealed this rank on the beret deal.


Mine's not embarrassing, just not suited for everyone! "Iron Men of Metz"

Heh, it kind of sounds like a show tune and reminds me of Robin Hood: Men in tights(Tight tights!) haha.

[Eztyga]

This will be a good system, but only for all the fecksticks who inhabit the military...

[Malicious Guardsmen]

Thank god I'm not the only one that hates that new dress blue uniform! the regular dress blues were just fine. way to go gaying it up.

[Mordecai]

It seems things have come full circle. At one time the only ones you saw in berets were SF, then the Rangers, then the 82nd... Now since everyone has berets there are quite a few of us who have gone back to wearing our PC's...

How much more gey can the Army get? I mean come on for God's sake; we are prosecuting a war and the CSM of the Army has time to think up BS like this. There are quite a few people who need to be reassigned to a job where they are too busy to think.

[paracrusader]

How much more gey can the Army get? I mean come on for God's sake; we are prosecuting a war and the CSM of the Army has time to think up BS like this. There are quite a few people who need to be reassigned to a job where they are too busy to think.

This raises a good point. I think I read somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% of the army has deployed at least once. Who and where are these 40%?!? We've been at war for the better part of a decade now, so unless they are a new private, they have to have made a deliberate effort at this point to have not gone anywhere. Don't get me wrong, there are certainly some jobs that directly support the war effort without leaving the country, but there are combat arms E-7s and up who have never deployed. I know of an infantry CSM who just earned his CIB in the last 6 months. Meanwhile, you have guys on their 6th rotation dying in combat. Seems to me like there's 2 armies- those of us who do things, and those up there who don't. Someone needs to let that other army know that we're at war.

Not trying to turn this into some kind of anti-army rant thread or anything...

[Beowulf]

It seems things have come full circle. At one time the only ones you saw in berets were SF, then the Rangers, then the 82nd... Now since everyone has berets there are quite a few of us who have gone back to wearing our PC's...

How much more gey can the Army get? I mean come on for God's sake; we are prosecuting a war and the CSM of the Army has time to think up BS like this. There are quite a few people who need to be reassigned to a job where they are too busy to think.

Word.

I heard one of the recon guys say this in formation the other day:

"only two ways out of the BS: ETS or SFAS"

[California Joe]

Mine's not embarrassing, just not suited for everyone! "Iron Men of Metz"
It's certainly not creative... and still wouldn't be even if I was a man. I realize it's from the division's success in Metz in WWII, but.

Metz, the queen city of Moselle, had withstood all attacks by military forces since 451 A. D., and the Germans intended to maintain this record. The original fortifications, completed before 1870, consisted of an inner ring of 15 forts and an outer perimeter of 28 steel and concrete bastions built by the Germans in 1912. In 1941, the Germans improved and modernized the installations. The forts were reinforced with 210 MM guns and 105 MM guns placed in revolving steel turrets which would withstand fire from high velocity direct-fire weapons.

Against heavy resistance, the 95th captured the forts surrounding Metz and captured the city, 22 November. At 1435 on the afternoon of 22 November 1 944, Maj. Gen. Walton H. Walker reported to Lt. Gen. Patton that Metz was completely secured. It was during the battle for Metz that war correspondents nicknamed the men of the 95th "The Bravest of the Brave". The German defenders gave them another name that the Division carries proudly: "The Iron Men of Metz."


Sounds to me like some brave men fought and died to earn that title. Just sayin'.

[geeded]

But from what I've seen, they've tightened up on that award. 3x sworn statements, and must have been in personal danger. I've seen them turned down because their only justification was one IED incident. Maybe that was a unit thing. Anyways, anyone who's been around a bit will not assume you got yours for nothing, unless you give them reason to believe that. And, for that matter, there are definitely some - not many, mind you- CIB wearing infantrymen who did not earn theirs.

My Son is a 101st Rakkasan "cannon cocker" but during his tours he hasn't been anywhere near an artillery piece. They were dismounted Infantry and held areas of Baghdad by themselves right next to the Infantry. He was fired upon, fired back, stepped on an IED (luckily just the det cord went off and knocked him on his ass and tore up his finger), involved in a firefight after a sniper shot his interpreter right though the face 2 feet from him, dragged wounded off a contested bridge, and saved a bunch of IA cowering under fire. He was awarded Commendation w/valor, Bronze Star w/valor (twice), and never complained. He EARNED his CAB although he'd have prefered a CIB since that was what he and his men were doing. There is a certain stigma against the CAB but, trust me, a lot of them are WELL earned.

Cheers, geeded

[California Joe]

^Well said. Welcome to the forum.

[Pappy]

My Son is a 101st Rakkasan "cannon cocker" but during his tours he hasn't been anywhere near an artillery piece. They were dismounted Infantry and held areas of Baghdad by themselves right next to the Infantry. He was fired upon, fired back, stepped on an IED (luckily just the det cord went off and knocked him on his ass and tore up his finger), involved in a firefight after a sniper shot his interpreter right though the face 2 feet from him, dragged wounded off a contested bridge, and saved a bunch of IA cowering under fire. He was awarded Commendation w/valor, Bronze Star w/valor (twice), and never complained. He EARNED his CAB although he'd have prefered a CIB since that was what he and his men were doing. There is a certain stigma against the CAB but, trust me, a lot of them are WELL earned.

Cheers, geeded

And that's why I hate the CAB so much. The fact that it was given away like candy takes away from the soldiers who actually earned it. Oh by the way, he still wasn't Infantry. It sounds like he fought bravely, and probably rather well. But that doesn't change his MOS. ;)

The FOB that my Brigade was based out of was hit with rockets one time. I think that every single person on the FOB got a CAB for that even though most were nowhere close to it. I also think that CABs and CIBs should still only be for receiving contact and returning fire. Get hit by an IED? That sucks but it's not what the spirit of the awards is about. Now if you got hit by an IED and started to return fire, then yeah.

[geeded]

And that's why I hate the CAB so much. The fact that it was given away like candy takes away from the soldiers who actually earned it. Oh by the way, he still wasn't Infantry. It sounds like he fought bravely, and probably rather well. But that doesn't change his MOS. ;)

The FOB that my Brigade was based out of was hit with rockets one time. I think that every single person on the FOB got a CAB for that even though most were nowhere close to it. I also think that CABs and CIBs should still only be for receiving contact and returning fire. Get hit by an IED? That sucks but it's not what the spirit of the awards is about. Now if you got hit by an IED and started to return fire, then yeah.

So, your answer is to give no recognition to Men who fought and risked their life just like the infantry? When I say there was no difference between their job and the infantry...there was NO difference. They did the same job, MOS be damned. In the 101st, they don't give away Bronze stars for valor like candy. Oh, and he has his tab. He was later attached to the 187th Infantry and fought with them also ... even though he was an "FO". Didn't seem to make any difference to the insurgents that he wasn't infantry. Where he was, there was just "us" and "them" (IA or insurgents) and no one gave a rat's patootie about an mos..... When they went back to Stryker though, they all hated the pougs :) A grunt is a grunt and crapping in a bag tends to even the playing field.

cheers, anteken

[Mordecai]

So, your answer is to give no recognition to Men who fought and risked their life just like the infantry? When I say there was no difference between their job and the infantry...there was NO difference. They did the same job, MOS be damned. In the 101st, they don't give away Bronze stars for valor like candy. Oh, and he has his tab. He was later attached to the 187th Infantry and fought with them also ... even though he was an "FO". Didn't seem to make any difference to the insurgents that he wasn't infantry. Where he was, there was just "us" and "them" (IA or insurgents) and no one gave a rat's patootie about an mos..... When they went back to Stryker though, they all hated the pougs :) A grunt is a grunt and crapping in a bag tends to even the playing field.

cheers, anteken

Pappy wasnt saying that the guys who fight dont deserve something for their actions. He was saying that far too often guys are getting them for much of nothing cheapening the award for those who did do something. The same thing holds true for guys getting the CIB (many of us refer to it as the Free-I-B).

As for the MOS issue, things are different between MOS's. While in theatre your son may have done near everything an Infantryman does, when those who arent Infantry are stateside their lives are far different than that of an Infantryman. This is one of the reasons given for the award of the CIB. It is for not only what the Infantryman does in combat but what the life he leads back stateside preparing to go to combat.

There is a vast difference in being an Infantryman and everything else in the Army and I know that may be difficult for you to understand.

Furthermore service shouldnt be about the awards a person wears on his chest but what he carries in his heart and soul as a reminder of his actions on the battlefield.

Please convey our thanks for your son's service to our nation and thank you for raising a son willing to accept the call to duty of our nation.

Respectfully submitted,

Crip

[Nordsoldat]

Good point. I did have those stupid black berets in mind.

HEY!

wait...your referring to the US berets...
Ok...fair enough...

Im rather partial to my black beret permeated with 90W Gear Oil, Sweat, Blood, Diesel, and other fluids... but thats a tanker thing...


But Yea, I swear to god, they should have sent a contingent of Canucks down south to show the average joe army how to form and shape a beret.
The Airborne and SF do a decent job but by' da jayyysus, the regular folk in them movin pictures we just got here in the north do a piss poor job.

[Eztyga]

HEY!

Im rather partial to my black beret permeated with 90W Gear Oil, Sweat, Blood, Diesel, and other fluids... but thats a tanker thing...



As a heavy weapons tech on warships, I can relate! Mine is saturated with OM33 and keeps my scalp intact when I bump into projections in the cramped confines where I work.

[Nordsoldat]

As a heavy weapons tech on warships, I can relate! Mine is saturated with OM33 and keeps my scalp intact when I bump into projections in the cramped confines where I work.

Ahh..the Navy...dang beret Theives!

But I totally hear ya, when crawling around inside a leo or my g-wagon, it protects the ol' nog a fair bit from the semi sharp edges...

and besides, chicks dig a well formed beret

[Eztyga]

Ahh..the Navy...dang beret Theives!


We have been using them since WW2, if not longer. Should go well with our new navy cams.

[Nordsoldat]

We have been using them since WW2, if not longer. Should go well with our new navy cams.

WW 1 the Armoured Corps adopted Berets as their head dress.

wait...Navy Cams? what in the by jaaayyysus are those all about... are we becoming like big brothers military to the south?

[zonk]

rank on the beret = teh gayness


black beret = the lameness

the patrol cap = win

red beret = win x infinity

ranger/sf/d-boy = win x infinity

air assault = black beret which equals mentioned above

[Nordsoldat]

rank on the beret = teh gayness


black beret = the lameness

the patrol cap = win

MAROON beret = win x infinity

ranger/sf/d-boy = win x infinity

air assault = black beret which equals mentioned above

Changed for Accuracy

[Albatross]

I have yet to see what was wrong with the patrol cap. light, keeps sun out of eyes, can write notes on the inside of it, buy and wear.

[Eztyga]

WW 1 the Armoured Corps adopted Berets as their head dress.

wait...Navy Cams? what in the by jaaayyysus are those all about... are we becoming like big brothers military to the south?

Nah, I think it is just 'corporate badging', they have reflective tape on them, so they are not designed for concealment.

[Nordsoldat]

Nah, I think it is just 'corporate badging', they have reflective tape on them, so they are not designed for concealment.


Oh dear Lord... those are a pain on the eyes mate, how can you stand to wear those things?
Whats wrong with the old style work dress all the commonwealth used to have onboard HM(Aus, Nz, Can etc) Ships?
And No Blousing on the trousers? ehgahds...

[Eztyga]

Oh dear Lord... those are a pain on the eyes mate, how can you stand to wear those things?
Whats wrong with the old style work dress all the commonwealth used to have onboard HM(Aus, Nz, Can etc) Ships?
And No Blousing on the trousers? ehgahds...

That will change...p-)

I haven't got my issue yet, I will post a photo when I do, bloused and with beret.

[Nordsoldat]

That will change...p-)

I haven't got my issue yet, I will post a photo when I do, bloused and with beret.

Thank god, unbloused trousers in garrison or in temperate enviroments look shoddy as hell. Im down with losing the blousing when conditions permit in arid regions etc, but for day to day, it pays to look professional.

Which brings me back to Berets, Bad beret and a shoddy uniform is the first tip off as to whos who in the zoo.

[Eztyga]

Thank god, unbloused trousers in garrison or in temperate enviroments look shoddy as hell. Im down with losing the blousing when conditions permit in arid regions etc, but for day to day, it pays to look professional.

Which brings me back to Berets, Bad beret and a shoddy uniform is the first tip off as to whos who in the zoo.

Aye...p-)

...................

[Erik2a4]

Yeah, I don't see the point in this. As a non-com, I can say that officers are the ones who care to look special, so they can wear their rank on their berets all they want, but I like my unit pin better for myself... although, my unit's slogan on it is pretty lame. I liked my old one better.

You're full of ****, sweetheart p-)

I'm sure we'll all agree that NCOs are at the heart of US Army uniform testing and procurement.

In fact, most of these announcements are at the behest of Sergeant Major Katrina Easley, the HQDA Uniform Policy SGM.

My soldiers have suffered the wrath of many a Sergeant Major and interesting uniform combinations, to include:

- a demand to wear the large, fluffy black fleece under the DCU/BDU top. Not over. Under.

- must have our combat patches and CIBs sewn on our DCU tops prior to leaving Iraq in March, 2004, despite the fact that we were in Ramadi and didn't have a sew-shop, much less running water, or food for that matter, on the whole COP.

- that dirty boonie hats must be washed in Iraq- however, since we were not allowed to wear the patrol cap, you had to wash your hat by hand and then immediately put it on wet while walking around the FOB, because you must wear headgear while in uniform.

- mandatory wear of shiny PT reflective belt with PT uniform inside the gym during the day. I say again: inside the gym during the day.

I reject your opinion that Officers have the monopoly on stupid, and humbly offer up the tremendous goat-rope that is the Audie Murphy club as proof that the NCO Corps is neck and neck with the Officer Corps in the running for stupid.

[Erik2a4]

On that note, the other day I was doing BAR and during a break in training some pogue 1SG told me to "be a leader" and fix my PC. I looked at him, puzzled, and he told me that it should be parallel with the marching surface. Hadn't heard that since basic training, 9 years ago. Is this a pogue thing? He didn't have a combat patch. Funny, I've done my job- led men in combat- and it never required my hat to be "parallel to the marching surface". Didn't effect my leadership. I'm just sayin'.

I use this as further proof that parts of the NCO Corps have gone completely insane. That's a leadership failure and he needs to be punched in the dingus and sent to a small outpost in the Korengal. That'll give him some perspective on leadership.

I used to hear the same thing.

1SG/SGM: "Your sideburns are too long."

Me: "They're within regs."

1SG/SGM: "You can add to the regs, but you can't take away!"

Me: "So I can add hair? Tell you what: you beat me in the APFT and rifle marksmanship, and I'll cut my hair. If you lose, you have to grow out your sideburns."

Uniform standards can instill discipline, but they do not equal discipline.

Just to even things out, however, I will point out that I knew a Major who used to agonize over whether the Ranger tab was worn on the ACUs over IR patch with the little flap up or down.

As soon as the new AR 670-1 comes out I will hastily read it to determine which is correct, so that I too may be a good leader.

[paracrusader]

Like I said, there are 2 armies: the dirty, smelly one that finishes PT in a gaggle, sweaty and tired. And the dress-right-dress one that finishes in neat rows after having spent the last half hour jogging at a slow pace, but sounding off loudly with their favorite cadences. One places importance on marksmanship, fitness and competence. The other concerns itself with neatness of appearance.

This is definitely coming from the NCO corps. Most officers I know think that it's stupid how such trivial things are so obsessed over. The problem is that there are, like I said, 2 armies, and 2 very different cultures. One is concerned with fighting and winning the war, the other seems focused on finding everything BUT that effort to concern itself with.

I've got the ultimate in uniform madness here: I'm in Iraq, participating in a cordon and search, in the summer. It's hot, and we've cleared a couple city blocks in a district that has many 4 and 5-story buildings. So I've got my alpha team covering my bravo team as they prepare to enter and clear another apartment block, and I'm moving with the lead element. I hear on my headset, "hey, check your uniform."

WTF? I ignore it, because I'm busy, but I hear it again. It's my platoon sergeant, who had some kind of fetish against the rolling up of sleeves. He's in a F'ing Bradley as part of the cordon, and he seriously has nothing better to do than to scrutinize my uniform from several hundred meters away. "Fix your sleeves," he tells me. What a jacka*s. I understand at the FOB, but I am in-sector and I hear this SH*t? He was on his first deployment, after having spent many years instructing PLDC. He was part of that other army, and I can tell you he does not handle himself well under fire.

[Erik2a4]

Like I said, there are 2 armies: the dirty, smelly one that finishes PT in a gaggle, sweaty and tired. And the dress-right-dress one that finishes in neat rows after having spent the last half hour jogging at a slow pace, but sounding off loudly with their favorite cadences. One places importance on marksmanship, fitness and competence. The other concerns itself with neatness of appearance.


I agree with this whole-heartedly.

[dave81]

"You can add to the regs, but you can't take away!"Such a gay line, because it sounds legitimate, but can actually be used to argue both sides of the same issue.

[KilledByAGirl]

You're full of ****, sweetheart p-)

I'm sure we'll all agree that NCOs are at the heart of US Army uniform testing and procurement.

In fact, most of these announcements are at the behest of Sergeant Major Katrina Easley, the HQDA Uniform Policy SGM.

My soldiers have suffered the wrath of many a Sergeant Major and interesting uniform combinations, to include:

- a demand to wear the large, fluffy black fleece under the DCU/BDU top. Not over. Under.

- must have our combat patches and CIBs sewn on our DCU tops prior to leaving Iraq in March, 2004, despite the fact that we were in Ramadi and didn't have a sew-shop, much less running water, or food for that matter, on the whole COP.

- that dirty boonie hats must be washed in Iraq- however, since we were not allowed to wear the patrol cap, you had to wash your hat by hand and then immediately put it on wet while walking around the FOB, because you must wear headgear while in uniform.

- mandatory wear of shiny PT reflective belt with PT uniform inside the gym during the day. I say again: inside the gym during the day.

I reject your opinion that Officers have the monopoly on stupid, and humbly offer up the tremendous goat-rope that is the Audie Murphy club as proof that the NCO Corps is neck and neck with the Officer Corps in the running for stupid.

And you win the award for most irrelevant, drawn-out reply to a comment. +1 to the officers. " p-) "

[Erik2a4]

And you win the award for most irrelevant, drawn-out reply to a comment. +1 to the officers. " p-) "

Don't go blaming O's for stuff the NCO Corps has done to itself.:lol:

Paracrusader hit the nail on the head. I just beat the horse to death because we all know rank has nothing to do with ability...or lack thereof.

[LineDoggie]

You're full of ****, sweetheart p-)

I'm sure we'll all agree that NCOs are at the heart of US Army uniform testing and procurement.

In fact, most of these announcements are at the behest of Sergeant Major Katrina Easley, the HQDA Uniform Policy SGM.

My soldiers have suffered the wrath of many a Sergeant Major and interesting uniform combinations, to include:

- a demand to wear the large, fluffy black fleece under the DCU/BDU top. Not over. Under.

- must have our combat patches and CIBs sewn on our DCU tops prior to leaving Iraq in March, 2004, despite the fact that we were in Ramadi and didn't have a sew-shop, much less running water, or food for that matter, on the whole COP.

- that dirty boonie hats must be washed in Iraq- however, since we were not allowed to wear the patrol cap, you had to wash your hat by hand and then immediately put it on wet while walking around the FOB, because you must wear headgear while in uniform.

- mandatory wear of shiny PT reflective belt with PT uniform inside the gym during the day. I say again: inside the gym during the day.

I reject your opinion that Officers have the monopoly on stupid, and humbly offer up the tremendous goat-rope that is the Audie Murphy club as proof that the NCO Corps is neck and neck with the Officer Corps in the running for stupid.


Thats true, I've seen stupidity by the Conex full from those ALARACTS.

I remember being told by my CSM that I couldnt wear my CIB unless I had a "Combat Patch" on as well.

Then he came up with the We cant wear Black fleece even under the DCU's order (stopped after Chiarelli asked why joes were shivering in the tracks).

Then he was ragging the Scout & Mortar Platoons at Buehring for getting the DCU pockets on the sleeves modification done. A week later in Iraq, he comes walking up wearing his the same way.

Then he banned the Breech covers for the Gats in Kuwait. Hadji made some nice dust covers for 3 dollah

The absolute best was the "You will SALUTE officers on Route Irish" bit(considering we had just lost a PSG. 6 days before to a Sniper).

My XO said he would **** up the first guy who saluted him.

Man lost his mind in Iraq- it was a small loss

[paracrusader]

I can count on one hand the number of officers I've known who cared about uniform BS. And, like I said, most of them could care less, and they are often the first ones to do their own thing. I know in support units everything is a bit more officer-led, but in combat arms they actually trust their NCOs, and officers stay out of our business.

The problem is that the army has to provide career progression to non-combat arms SGMs. Your tranportation corps or ordinance corps CSM is not going to become division CSMs, so they have to find jobs for them. They end up with such important jobs as "clothing policy SGM", or "US army safety center CSM", or whatever that nonsense is. What a worthless job, a trained monkey could perform. How does she deserve the same respect as a combat-proven CSM who has been responsible for soldiers' lives and made life-or-death decisions? Ehh, that's besides the point, though.

For that matter, things are getting better. Good guys who were platoon sergeants or first sergeants 4 years ago are starting to work their way up. I know of some awesome 1SGs who made the SGM list last year. One was a SSG in 2002, and is now enroute to the Sergeant's Major Academy. Awesome guy, and not a BS kind of guy either. I participated in a squad competition a while back, which was basically 18 hours of straight PT, in a very hot environment. The uniform, as directed by my 1SG, was unbloused boots, rolled sleeves, ACUs with boonie, and whatever boots with your ruck. It was great walking through Fort Bliss, a particularly pogue-tastic post, in that kind of uniform- bricks were shat, but not one person stopped us. It was common sense, and at the point we walked through that area, we'd all been going about 10 miles or so, including a squad land nav course, a 1-mile HMMWV push, a PT test, a 3-mile run, and an obstacle course. Good times- wrapped it all up with a swim test and a 12-miler. Anyways, the uniform was dictated by common sense, and our CSM knew it. But the peacetime mentality that exists in the army, especially at the top, unfortunately, will never go away.

And as much as most of us hate it, there does have to be some sort of regulations, and we still have to enforce them- within common sense. I've been a "uniform nazi" myself in the past, although deploying a few times has put into perspective what was really important. Hell, if my hands are cold, they go in my damn pockets. I get "corrected" on a weekly basis, at least. But, for that matter, my guys are not running around in garrison with their hats backwards, or their boots unbloused, or doing any of the stupid garrison things that would just draw attention to them, like walking and smoking, for example. There's a time and a place to roll up your sleeves, and it is not to look cool.

But the point is that there just seems to be no common sense at the top.

[Desert_Donkey]

And that's why I hate the CAB so much. The fact that it was given away like candy takes away from the soldiers who actually earned it. Oh by the way, he still wasn't Infantry. It sounds like he fought bravely, and probably rather well. But that doesn't change his MOS. ;)

The FOB that my Brigade was based out of was hit with rockets one time. I think that every single person on the FOB got a CAB for that even though most were nowhere close to it. I also think that CABs and CIBs should still only be for receiving contact and returning fire. Get hit by an IED? That sucks but it's not what the spirit of the awards is about. Now if you got hit by an IED and started to return fire, then yeah.

Our entire S-1 section was rockin CAB's after we got back, though I cannot to this day puzzle out what they did to deserve them.

ALL company grade officers and above got what I prefer to call "complimentary" Bronze Stars for "OUTSTANDING ADMINISTRATIVE DUTY" or some asinine sh*t. I wish I had recorded the award ceremony; it was a f*ckin hoot.

1SG's and SGM's all got "complimentary" BSM's, too, except the two or three that the other senior "leadership" considered assholes; those guys got Meritorious Service Medals instead.

Our 1SG and Bn SGM went around the FOB one day and shot every dog they could find, including the ones we had more or less "adopted" from the Marines we took over from. All of them were pretty cool mutts, and they hated Iraqis, which made them pretty good "early warning systems", because whenever haji was around, they growled like motherf*ckers and let off with lots of barking. The senior "leadership" decided that the dogs were a health hazard, and personally went around shooting them with their shiny new M9's. I think that's what they got their "complimentary" BSM's for; "saving" the entire FOB from "potential health hazards associated with canine-borne infections diseases." LOL.

We had one medic who pulled another Soldier out of a burning vehicle up around San Juan, and last I heard, he didn't get sh*t, even after his PSG went WAY out of his way to push his recommendation for a BSM up the chain. Evidently, one cannot have some enlisted person running around getting the same medals that an officer does. It just won't do, old buddy...

Our problems have much to do with out tendency to "lead" from the rear, instead of leading from the front as it should be done. Most of the officers and senior NCO's of my acquaintance, I wouldn't trust to be put in charge of a sh*t burning detail, much less with the lives of their fellow Soldiers. I wish it were otherwise, but there it is.

We have a long way to go before we exorcise the pogue-osity from our ranks. Maybe we never will.

[dave81]

There's a time and a place to roll up your sleeves, and it is not to look cool.Wow. That line makes so much sense I'm going to start using it from now on to explain the difference between "common sense" and "Army sense".

[paracrusader]

ALL company grade officers and above got what I prefer to call "complimentary" Bronze Stars for "OUTSTANDING ADMINISTRATIVE DUTY" or some asinine sh*t.

1SG's and SGM's all got "complimentary" BSM's, too, except the two or three that the other senior "leadership" considered assholes; those guys got Meritorious Service Medals instead.

We have a long way to go before we exorcise the pogue-osity from our ranks. Maybe we never will.

The whole awards system, ugh... I gave up on making sense of it a long time ago. I fight for my guys to get what they deserve, but it's just a mess, army-wide. Every SFC and above, to include ALL LT's, recieved BSMs after our last deployment. Something like 150 were awarded, but at least they had the sense to do the ceremony in a theater when we got back. 2 hours of comedy, right there. I guess they got them for not wearing their rank sideways, I don't know. They authorized 2 BSMs per company for lower ranks (E-6 and below), which battalion chose at random from those that were submitted. On the other hand, CABs required 3x sworn statements that the awardee was in personal danger, and 1x IED was not enough.

We'll never get rid of the garrison mentality. There will always be jobs that do not require people to be in harms way, and people in those jobs will excell at what they do, and they will become CSMs and senior officers. The commandant (CSM) of the 11-series NCOES system told me this: "there's going to be some broken hearts when this war is over and we go back to business as usual." Take from that statement what you want, but it goes to show that that kind of mentality is not even MOS-specific. What the hell is "business as usual" for an infantryman if it's not at war?

"Pogue-osity"- LOL!

Maybe this thread should be renamed "army rant thread"!

[Pappy]

I can count on one hand the number of officers I've known who cared about uniform BS. And, like I said, most of them could care less, and they are often the first ones to do their own thing.

That is the damn truth right there.

[LineDoggie]

I listened to 2 of our PL's complain that they had to turn in their interim MSM's for the de riguer Meritorious BSM's, so I know your pain. They wanted to keep both.

I also couldnt fathom the schmucks who banned Booniehats on base in Iraq. These jackasses didnt like the look of them so tried to force the units to wear PC's.

In 2005 at Liberty they even made it so a 1SG or SGM had to be at the Clearing Barrels near the ECP's, sitting there in their Polaris with a clip board

NOT to ensure weapons safety

but to ensure UNIFORM regulation adherence.

[paracrusader]

Booniehats banned? Good god. We had the option of boonie or PC, except in formation. I personally preferred the PC. But we had to wear eye pro AT ALL TIMES, and that was inspected at the chow hall entrance, as well as your weapon. That drove me nuts as well. I had some of my guys turned away at the chow hall for their uniforms being dirty- in Iraq, after having come back from a mission where they recieved and returned fire! I've heard they added PT belts as well, while on the FOB. Jeez. I was worried about finding time to get a haircut once a month or so - who are these people?

I imagine a dark, smoky room in a basement, filled with crusty old CSMs, at some pogue-ish post like Fort Lee or Fort Jackson, coming up with plots to keep the fighting man down!

[Desert_Donkey]

Booniehats banned? Good god. We had the option of boonie or PC, except in formation. I personally preferred the PC. But we had to wear eye pro AT ALL TIMES, and that was inspected at the chow hall entrance, as well as your weapon. That drove me nuts as well. I had some of my guys turned away at the chow hall for their uniforms being dirty- in Iraq, after having come back from a mission where they recieved and returned fire! I've heard they added PT belts as well, while on the FOB. Jeez. I was worried about finding time to get a haircut once a month or so - who are these people?

I imagine a dark, smoky room in a basement, filled with crusty old CSMs, at some pogue-ish post like Fort Lee or Fort Jackson, coming up with plots to keep the fighting man down!

One of our worst Chow Hall Nazis almost got himself scuffed up pretty good for pulling that **** on our Scout platoon one day.

I'd have paid money to see him face down in the dust, but their PL cooled everything down and some of us went in and got them "to-go" plates so they wouldn't have to waste an hour getting all gussied up.

Don't these people know we're at war?

[Pappy]

One of our worst Chow Hall Nazis almost got himself scuffed up pretty good for pulling that **** on our Scout platoon one day.

I'd have paid money to see him face down in the dust, but their PL cooled everything down and some of us went in and got them "to-go" plates so they wouldn't have to waste an hour getting all gussied up.

Don't these people know we're at war?

Wait. So you're saying that everybody doesn't have hours upon hours of free time to shop at the PX, hang around green beans, and take 3 showers a day? =P

[Erik2a4]

Every SFC and above, to include ALL LT's, recieved BSMs after our last deployment. They authorized 2 BSMs per company for lower ranks (E-6 and below), which battalion chose at random from those that were submitted. On the other hand, CABs required 3x sworn statements that the awardee was in personal danger, and 1x IED was not enough.

This is standard. And a damn shame. The end result? A BSM without a V is worthless in my book.


What the hell is "business as usual" for an infantryman if it's not at war?

Exactly.

The bottom line is that we have to recruit, train, and retain better quality people. And fire the poor performers.

[paracrusader]

I've got to say this thread is great. We may have gone way off-topic here, but this is good stuff.

I joined one of those ghey forums on AKO a while back, thinking their might be some good info on there, like TTPs or info on new equipment or something. Good lord, what a bunch of retards. A bunch of NCO creed-worshiping know-nothings who think "leadership" is some abstract concept that has something to do with monthly counseling and enforcement of uniform standards. Venting like this back in the platoon bay is something I try to avoid.

I think that right now, the junior leaders up to platoon sergeant level have an unprecedented level of experience, competence, and common sense. The army will always have it's fair share of chickensh*t, but it has certainly improved in the last few years. It's bound to get better. All the non-combat types will never go away, and they'll continue to get promoted, but they won't be senior guys in combat units where it matters. As long as we can maintain common sense and a combat mindset where it matters most, the rest of those jackas*es can f*ck themselves. The right guys will get into the right positions, and the dinosaurs with that peacetime mindset will move on.

Tomorrow morning I'm going to have my guys out in the parking lot doing weapons drills until their thumbs are blistered. It's not on the training schedule. F*ck 'em.

[DMNemec]

And now for an on-topic post!

Too bad they decided against NCO rank on the beret. I'd love to get rid of my "8 Up" crest. I don't understand how they could have made the crest without noticing it. I'm sure that in actuality it has a very good reason for being what it is but to the non-historically educated eye it just looks like "8-up".

[dave81]

Are you talking about the 8th ID? Your avatar is 34th ID. Do they fall under them?
Pic please!

[Mordecai]

...Too bad they decided against NCO rank on the beret. I'd love to get rid of my "8 Up" crest...

The solution would be to transfer, not burden the remainder of the Army with a bad decision...

Changing to rank would definitely be an 8-up thing to do... p-)

[DMNemec]

I'm actually not sure what crest it is yet. I'm still fairly new to the unit. It's a silver 8-pointed star with a red arrow facing up in the center of it. I don't have my camera right now or I'd take a picture of it. Can't find it on google either.

I wouldn't transfer out of this unit just to get a different crest, great group of soldiers. I just got out of a unit that was just not the type I wanted to be in. That comment about the rank on beret was just more sarcastic than anything.

PS. Just found the 8 ID crest. Very same idea with "8 up" but more blatant on that one. I guess it could always be worse. :)