Haho/halo

[Ghostrider_NL]

i got a question on HAHO/HALO jumps, what is the advantage of a HAHO jump over a HALO jump and vice versa?

thanks for the trouble

[The Dane]

HALO is good if you wanna avoid radars and stuff. Stealthy and fast insertion..

Using the HAHO you can glid more than 50 km...

[N-G-F-O]

Pretty much covers it, snag with HAHO being that any tinpot with a relatively high bandwidth RADAR or good ole' fashioned Mk.1 eyeball could pick you up as you're falling all floaty-like through their TAOR and meet you at your DZ. But that's a worry for the old man, eh. Look it up on Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAHO

[JC0352]

The sound of a canopy opening is pretty loud. I jump recreationally and from the ground, a canopy opening at 5,500 feet is pretty loud. I bet that's another thing they consider when choosing how to insert. Would've loved the opportunity to do this while I was still in.

edit: yep, found the article I was looking for -

MAG-16, 1st Recon jump into combat history


Marine Corps News
Submitted by: 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 200481082113
Story by Sgt. Nathan K. LaForte
AL ASAD, Iraqhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/08/mil-040810-mcn01.htm#) (Aug. 10, 2004) -- Six recon pathfinders from 1st Reconnaissance Battalion, 1st Marine Division, recently jumped into the Iraqi night sky and into history from a Marine KC-130 Hercules cargo plane belonging to the joint Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadrons 234 and 352, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing.
The high altitude high opening jump took place in western Iraq, July 23.
Although reconnaissance Marines have religiously practiced air insertions time and time again, they have been virtually nonexistent in combat. According to Headquarters Marine Corps historical reports, the last combat airdrop a Marine Corps unit successfully performed was nearly 35 years ago.
The first was on June 14, 1966 during the Vietnam War. A small team of recon Marines made the low altitude night jump determined to quietly insert and set up an observation point within enemy territory. The team made it to the ground with only one small injury and was later extracted.
The jump was hailed as a success by most involved and the combat jump was accepted as a viable means of placing Marines in hostile areas.
The second, on Sept. 5, 1967, almost killed the combat airdrop idea for the Marine Corps. A group of nine Marines jumped into the night sky for a supposed 700-foot elevation drop. Because of mechanical malfunctions with the plane, the Marines unknowingly jumped from around 1500 to 2000 feet.
The team was blown off course by unexpected winds and landed separately in dense jungles far from their intended target. They suffered numerous wounded, three of which had to be medically evacuated, and some of the team barely escaped capture by the enemy.
The failure of this mission halted the process for two years until Nov. 17, 1969, when the last jump occurred and the three Vietnam jumps marked the end of the Marine Corps combat jump history - until now.
Theoretically, the jump was nothing different from the numerous training jumps the seasoned veterans have completed in their careers. What made this particular jump so special was the location and circumstances, claimed Master Sgt. Todd Smalenberg, primary jumpmaster, 1st Recon Bn.
"This is the first combat (high altitude high opening parachute drop) in the history of the Marine Corps," said Smalenberg.
When the Marine Corps first implemented the parachute insertion program, the purpose was the clandestine insertion of troops to prevent enemy counter movement.
The reasoning behind the July 23 mission was along similar lines, according to Maj. Douglas B. Davis, Hercules aircraft commander, Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 234, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing. Davis was in charge of the Hercules aircraft that delivered the group of six pathfinders to their destination.
"We were called in for this mission because the ground inserts were attracting a lot of attention and taking a lot of fire," the 36-year-old, McAllen, Texas native said. "They wanted to go in by parachute in order to avoid detection."
Although the historical implications of the drop were important, the Marines had an important mission to complete, said Smalenberg.
"We did an infiltration into an objective area to conduct an initial internal guidance of two CH-46E (Sea Knights)," the 39-year-old Oscoda, Mich., native explained of his team's mission. "We were to all insert clandestinely to the area to conduct counter (improvised explosive devices) ambushes."
IED attacks on convoys and ground patrols are one of the problems coalition forces are facing in the ongoing struggle to secure and stabilize Iraq. This mission is one of many that are being used to counter this threat, Smalenberg mentioned.
Overall, the mission was considered a success by those involved, claimed 1st Lt. Ken M. Karcher, airborne direct air support center, Marine Air Support Squadron 1, 3rd MAW, who relayed information for the recon teams once they hit the ground.
"It was a pretty simple mission and it went over pretty well," the 26-year-old Raleigh, N.C., native said. "It was very well coordinated by the ground unit."
"They went in, they were blacked out and we left," he added. "They didn't have enemy contact when they hit the ground. To me, that's success."
The jump was something the enemy might not have expected, claimed Smalenberg, but the group took extra precautions in the choice of their jump by opting for the high opening.
"The reason we chose to do a HAHO vice a (high altitude low opening) jump was the stand off distance the aircraft would be from the drop zone as well as the noise of the parachutes opening at 10 thousand feet vice four thousand feet is not even close," he explained. "The sound of a parachute opening at four thousand feet is quite distinct, but there is no noise of a parachute opening at 10 thousand feet."
The mission itself was exciting for all involved, because even though units train for this in peacetime operations, it doesn't happen often, claimed Sgt. Lee A. Davis, loadmaster, VMGR-234.
"It went great," the 21-year-old Arlington, Texas native claimed. "It's really rare for us and we don't get to do it that often so we really love it when we get the chance."
The older recon pathfinders, none of whom were under the rank of staff sergeant, may have been even more excited than the younger loadmaster, he noted.
"These guys were waiting their whole careers to do this in combat," he said.
The insertions made in past efforts by the recon Marines have varied from using ground and aquatic vehicles to just plain walking. Smalenberg also down played the excitement a bit by mentioning that a parachute insertion seemed like the method of choice for the Marines. "Every time we roll out of the camp in vehicles, the enemy knows," he said. "I feel safer doing this than driving my vehicle out of the camp. This is the best means (of insertion). Besides, it's just another way to get to work."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/08/mil-040810-mcn01.htm

[Carib]

What abouy HIYO

http://www.thejay.com/wp-content/anchorman.jpg

[Sand Man]

Using the HAHO you can glide more than 50 km...

How do they know they've already reached the DZ after gliding that far during night insertions?

Also, can you tell if a parachutist is going on a HAHO or HALO by just looking at his gear?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

How do they know they've already reached the DZ after gliding that far during night insertions?

Magic.

I mean bread crumbs.

Wait......what?

[boone]

How do they know they've already reached the DZ after gliding that far during night insertions?

Simple: They are equipped with a string with a series of knots tied in it. They thread said string through a button-hole in their blouse. As each km goes by they pull another knot through the button-hole.
Upon reaching the required, or prescribed amount of knots through the button-hole, they land, kill everyone and blow a bunch of sh*t up.

[Sand Man]

Magic.

I mean bread crumbs.

Wait......what?


Simple: They are equipped with a string with a series of knots tied in it. They thread said string through a button-hole in their blouse. As each km goes by they pull another knot through the button-hole.
Upon reaching the required, or prescribed amount of knots through the button-hole, they land, kill everyone and blow a bunch of sh*t up.

Now, now ... you two are a wealth of information... but truly unhelpful at the moment. Tighten up. p-)


Anyway, I read this on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAHO) but I assume this is a day insertion since you can discern land features. I am assuming things will be different for night insertions.


In a typical HAHO exercise, the jumper will jump from the aircraft and deploy the parachute at a high altitude, 10–15 seconds after the jump (typically at 27,000 feet (8,200 m) or so). The jumper will use a compass or GPS device for guidance while flying for 30 or more miles. The jumper must use way points and terrain features to navigate to his desired landing zone, and correct his or her course to account for changes in wind speed and direction. If deploying as a team, the team will form up in a stack while airborne with their parachutes. Usually, the jumper in the lowest position will set the travel course and act as a guide for the other team members.

Or land on a certain rooftop in the middle of a city (the movie Air Force One, for instance.) Would a GPS device suffice?

I do apologize if that is a stupid question to post in here...

[playtym]

Would a GPS device suffice?

I do apologize if that is a stupid question to post in here...

I doubt it, I think you'd need some sort of device that could tell you your location, and what direction you need to travel in.










Wait, what?

[DeltaWhisky58]

How do they know they've already reached the DZ after gliding that far during night insertions?

I always suspected you of being stupid, you have just confirmed my suspicions. After several years of trolling everything SF related on this and several other forums, you ask such totally asinine questions. Are you just post-whoring or attention seeking, it's one or the other or perhaps both.

:bash:

[Sand Man]

I always suspected you of being stupid, you have just confirmed my suspicions. After several years of trolling everything SF related on this and several other forums, you ask such totally asinine questions. Are you just post-whoring or attention seeking, it's one or the other or perhaps both.

:bash:

Jesus, how stupid/asinine is a HAHO question on a HAHO/HALO thread in a military forum?

This is the scenario: It's night time. They jump off then a few seconds deploy their chute. Assuming at that point they're on-course and they are set to glide 30 miles in.

Somewhere along the way a wind shear blows them a mile off course. How do they find their way back on course? From what I gather in this excerpt they use a Magellan GPS gadget thingy.



I stared through the pilot's windshield. It was the perfect operational milieu: there were no lights to be seen anywhere. I turned away, plugged my Magellan into the naviguesser's console and puffed the latest information from the navigator's forward-looking radar into my own. Then I plugged into the EWO -- that's Electronic Warfare Officer -- console, and dumped his target information into my own unit, too. That way, I could set a heading after we'd jumped -- a course that would bring us down exactly where we had to be. The info loaded, I punched a series of commands into the unit and watched as it responded properly.

....

Source (http://books.simonandschuster.com/Seal-Force-Alpha/Richard-Marcinko/9780671000721/excerpt)



Since that is a work of fiction, I ask: Is it accurate?

[DeltaWhisky58]

Do your own bloody research for once. The question you asked has an obvious answer, one which is easily found or are such things just too difficult for you to understand.

A pertinent or intelligent question would be fine ... ...



How do they know they've already reached the DZ after gliding that far during night insertions?



... ... but for someone who trolls as much as you do, this is just plain stupid as I have already told you - it's as obvious as the nose on your face, or the whistles and bells on your plastic M4 look-alike toy - GP****ingS.

Think before you post :bash:

[Sand Man]

You sure are cheery today, Gramps. p-)



Thanks, anyway.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Actually I'm fine, but retards like you popping up and post-whoring is always sure to change that.

And BTW, I'm not youre "Gramps" or anyone elses, I'm not so much older than you. There again, if we were to assume your mental age from your post quality, perhaps things might be a bit different.

[The Dane]

^.. again .. lol.. I know SF's today have some pretty advanced GPS guidance systems that they can use through a glid insertion..;)

[The Dane]

I always suspected you of being stupid, you have just confirmed my suspicions. After several years of trolling everything SF related on this and several other forums, you ask such totally asinine questions. Are you just post-whoring or attention seeking, it's one or the other or perhaps both.

:bash:

I thought you were avoiding asshats.. lol p-)

[DeltaWhisky58]

I thought you were avoiding asshats.. lol p-)

Some are unfortunately unavoidable.

[Ravage]

^.. again .. lol.. I know SF's today have some pretty advanced GPS guidance systems that they can use through a glid insertion..;)

Yup, read HERE (http://news.soc.mil/releases/News%20Archive/2008/August/SP-080822-01.html)

I see some things never change....

[The Dane]

^^ lol.. :)

[DeltaWhisky58]

Yup, read HERE (http://news.soc.mil/releases/News%20Archive/2008/August/SP-080822-01.html)

I see some things never change....

Well well well, one logs off and the other SF obsessive arrives.

If that's referring me, I'll never change - never did like asshats, never will.

If it refers to S*****n, once an asshat always an asshat.

[The Dane]

^ hehe..

Ravage, nice little story in your link, thanks.

[Ravage]

Yeah...I know.

[rjc_rbnj]

The sound of a canopy opening is pretty loud. I jump recreationally and from the ground, a canopy opening at 5,500 feet is pretty loud. I bet that's another thing they consider when choosing how to insert. Would've loved the opportunity to do this while I was still in.

edit: yep, found the article I was looking for -

MAG-16, 1st Recon jump into combat history


Marine Corps News
Submitted by: 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 200481082113
Story by Sgt. Nathan K. LaForte
AL ASAD, Iraqhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/08/mil-040810-mcn01.htm#) (Aug. 10, 2004) -- Six recon pathfinders from 1st Reconnaissance Battalion, 1st Marine Division, recently jumped into the Iraqi night sky and into history from a Marine KC-130 Hercules cargo plane belonging to the joint Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadrons 234 and 352, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing.
The high altitude high opening jump took place in western Iraq, July 23.
Although reconnaissance Marines have religiously practiced air insertions time and time again, they have been virtually nonexistent in combat. According to Headquarters Marine Corps historical reports, the last combat airdrop a Marine Corps unit successfully performed was nearly 35 years ago.
The first was on June 14, 1966 during the Vietnam War. A small team of recon Marines made the low altitude night jump determined to quietly insert and set up an observation point within enemy territory. The team made it to the ground with only one small injury and was later extracted.
The jump was hailed as a success by most involved and the combat jump was accepted as a viable means of placing Marines in hostile areas.
The second, on Sept. 5, 1967, almost killed the combat airdrop idea for the Marine Corps. A group of nine Marines jumped into the night sky for a supposed 700-foot elevation drop. Because of mechanical malfunctions with the plane, the Marines unknowingly jumped from around 1500 to 2000 feet.
The team was blown off course by unexpected winds and landed separately in dense jungles far from their intended target. They suffered numerous wounded, three of which had to be medically evacuated, and some of the team barely escaped capture by the enemy.
The failure of this mission halted the process for two years until Nov. 17, 1969, when the last jump occurred and the three Vietnam jumps marked the end of the Marine Corps combat jump history - until now.
Theoretically, the jump was nothing different from the numerous training jumps the seasoned veterans have completed in their careers. What made this particular jump so special was the location and circumstances, claimed Master Sgt. Todd Smalenberg, primary jumpmaster, 1st Recon Bn.
"This is the first combat (high altitude high opening parachute drop) in the history of the Marine Corps," said Smalenberg.
When the Marine Corps first implemented the parachute insertion program, the purpose was the clandestine insertion of troops to prevent enemy counter movement.
The reasoning behind the July 23 mission was along similar lines, according to Maj. Douglas B. Davis, Hercules aircraft commander, Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 234, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing. Davis was in charge of the Hercules aircraft that delivered the group of six pathfinders to their destination.
"We were called in for this mission because the ground inserts were attracting a lot of attention and taking a lot of fire," the 36-year-old, McAllen, Texas native said. "They wanted to go in by parachute in order to avoid detection."
Although the historical implications of the drop were important, the Marines had an important mission to complete, said Smalenberg.
"We did an infiltration into an objective area to conduct an initial internal guidance of two CH-46E (Sea Knights)," the 39-year-old Oscoda, Mich., native explained of his team's mission. "We were to all insert clandestinely to the area to conduct counter (improvised explosive devices) ambushes."
IED attacks on convoys and ground patrols are one of the problems coalition forces are facing in the ongoing struggle to secure and stabilize Iraq. This mission is one of many that are being used to counter this threat, Smalenberg mentioned.
Overall, the mission was considered a success by those involved, claimed 1st Lt. Ken M. Karcher, airborne direct air support center, Marine Air Support Squadron 1, 3rd MAW, who relayed information for the recon teams once they hit the ground.
"It was a pretty simple mission and it went over pretty well," the 26-year-old Raleigh, N.C., native said. "It was very well coordinated by the ground unit."
"They went in, they were blacked out and we left," he added. "They didn't have enemy contact when they hit the ground. To me, that's success."
The jump was something the enemy might not have expected, claimed Smalenberg, but the group took extra precautions in the choice of their jump by opting for the high opening.
"The reason we chose to do a HAHO vice a (high altitude low opening) jump was the stand off distance the aircraft would be from the drop zone as well as the noise of the parachutes opening at 10 thousand feet vice four thousand feet is not even close," he explained. "The sound of a parachute opening at four thousand feet is quite distinct, but there is no noise of a parachute opening at 10 thousand feet."
The mission itself was exciting for all involved, because even though units train for this in peacetime operations, it doesn't happen often, claimed Sgt. Lee A. Davis, loadmaster, VMGR-234.
"It went great," the 21-year-old Arlington, Texas native claimed. "It's really rare for us and we don't get to do it that often so we really love it when we get the chance."
The older recon pathfinders, none of whom were under the rank of staff sergeant, may have been even more excited than the younger loadmaster, he noted.
"These guys were waiting their whole careers to do this in combat," he said.
The insertions made in past efforts by the recon Marines have varied from using ground and aquatic vehicles to just plain walking. Smalenberg also down played the excitement a bit by mentioning that a parachute insertion seemed like the method of choice for the Marines. "Every time we roll out of the camp in vehicles, the enemy knows," he said. "I feel safer doing this than driving my vehicle out of the camp. This is the best means (of insertion). Besides, it's just another way to get to work."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/08/mil-040810-mcn01.htm



Marines from 2nd ANGLICO made a combat jump in 1983 during Operation Urgent Fury. Marines from this unit were attached to the 82nd Airborne during the invasion of Grenada.

[KB]

2nd ANGLICO did not jump into Grenada. Salines Airport was secured by the 1st/75th and 2nd/75th Rangers; the 82nd Airborne and attached ANGLICO dets were rigged, but airlanded instead.

[Black Arrow]

For your info. There have been a number of airborne insertions made into hostile places in the past number of years by UKSF. HAHO, HALO and Tandam bundles/pax have all been and are still being implemented although due to the nature of the units involved, they are unlikely to be reported on.