Dresden Medal of Honor for Ex-KGB Agent Putin

[Kampfbaer]

OPERA BALL SCANDAL
Dresden Medal of Honor for Ex-KGB Agent Putin
By Steffen Winter in Dresden

It's a big night for Russian Prime Minister Putin. The former KGB officer will return to his old Dresden haunt for the Semper Opera Ball. There, the man who just turned off natural gas supplies to half of Europe will receive a medal of honor -- handed to him by a man with a communist past of his own.

The medal is of unsurpassed beauty. Handmade by a Dresden jeweller, the decoration is formed of solid 18 carat gold and white gold.

It is a stunning replica of the "Heilige Georg zu Pferde," a work featured in the city's famous Grünes Gewolbe, or Green Vault, the exquisite Baroque collection of August the Strong, who died in 1733. And it is a special symbol: St. George symbolizes the victory of good over evil. The ornament has also been engraved with a seminal line: "Adverso Flumine," or "against the current."
The motto seems more applicable to those handing out the medal than to its recipient. The award, after all, is to be pinned to the breast of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in Dresden's Semper Opera House on Friday night, a man who has just cut off natural gas supplies to half of Europe. It is hard to imagine such an event taking place anywhere other than in Saxony. By bestowing the honor, the state is apparently creating just what it needs to make people take its annual Opera Ball seriously: a scandal-rich event.

"It is cynical and scandalous," says Werner Schulz, a former Green Party member of German parliament who currently heads a government-funded organization devoted to the examination and reappraisal of the Communist dictatorship in East Germany.

The head of the Green Party in Saxony's state parliament, Antje Hermenau, acerbically quips: Why not just give next year's award to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to draw more attention to the event? And the head of the conservative Christian Democrats in the state, Heinz Eggert, says, rather diplomatically, that the state has demonstrated, at the very least, a "lack of political instinct" by awarding the honor to Putin.

Just why Putin was chosen for the award is not entirely clear. The honor is normally given to "extraordinary people" who have dedicated themselves "courageously and single-mindedly to the present and future of the state of Saxony and to Germany." Putin, though, is being officially honored for the "exchange of culture between Saxony and Russia." The ball's organizers assure that there are regular exchanges between the state's museums and chapels and Russia. They also note that Putin has done his part to make sure that art looted from Germany by Russian troops during and after World War II is returned.

The people responsible for handling the negotiations over the return of the art have a different story though: At best, Putin didn't escalate what was already a tense situation. But they say he didn't do much to improve the situation, either.

No Such Thing as Bad Publicity

So why the honor? Sources close to the Chancellery in Berlin, Germany's equivalent to the White House, say Putin, who is in Germany meeting with Chancellor Angela Merkel on Friday, also wanted to conduct a private visit to Dresden. The Russian prime minister knows the city quite well. From 1985 to 1990, he was stationed in the city as a KGB officer and resided in a villa located just across the street from the Stasi's district offices. The Stasi was the feared East German secret police.

Under the codename "Adamov," his job was to recruit new spies for the Soviet intelligence apparatus. Schulz, a former civil rights activist in the East Germany, claims to remember that Putin was the one who threatened violence against protesters should they come too close to KGB buildings during the 1989 demonstrations prior to the fall of the Wall. But for the organizers of the Semper Opera's ball, there's apparently no such thing as bad publicity. They want to make the Dresden spectacle, a tradition first revived four years ago, world famous. "Our status has reached an international level," says the opera ball gala's organizer, Hans-Joachim Frey.

In recent years, the gala has succeeded only in drawing major figures from German politics and society. Last March, the state of Saxony invited Putin to attend the event on behalf of the ball's organizers. He agreed in October. But a state government spokesperson assures that the idea for the invitation and the medal came from ball organizers.

The memorable occasion is expected to happen at 9:24 p.m. on Friday night at the opera, which was reopened by East German Communist Party leader Erich Honecker in 1985. The Saxony governor, Stanislaw Tillich -- who back in 1989 was himself a functionary in the local government and has been put under massive pressure recently for apparently trying to cover up his ties to the communist system -- will hand the former Dresden KGB officer a thank you medal 20 years after the fall of the Wall.

Heinz Eggert has called on the state governor, at the very least, to remind Putin that "he only has his current position because of the democratic movement of 1989-1990. If this political revolution hadn't happened, he still might be a nameless officer of the KGB who wouldn't even have enough money to visit an opera ball."

The local Dresden chapter of the anti-globalization group Attac said it planned to stage a protest against the ball on Friday, saying it would hold a "Three Penny Ball" just across the Elbe River from the opera house.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,601704,00.html

[1curious]

As far as I know, Putin is a genuine Germanophile...speaks the language rather well, likes German culture and I even read some place his wife and one of his daughters were using German occasionally at home.

If he played a role that improved cultural exchange between the countries, who cares if he was a KGB? Even if it's a political pre-text. I don't.

[KB]

Thanks for posting. Wow.

[Xaito]

wow that article is a one sided presentation of phobia written by some spoilsport.
I find it amusing how the Author tries so hard to present Germany as a victim and Russia as evil - maybe he's got a selective memory when it comes to history or maybe he needed to fulfill the monthly anti-Russia quota with his article. :)

edit

If he played a role that improved cultural exchange between the countries, who cares if he was a KGB?
KGB must be something special and impressive for the Germans if they can't get over it.

[tluassa]

KGB is just another criminal murderous communist agency in the mind of Germans ...

Since you dont seem to have a clue on Postwar Germany, I might tell you that the KGB was murdering German citizens inside West Germany, and also abducting them into the Soviet Union or East Germany for torture. Most likely the persons would simply disappear.

I might also quote John Mc Cain: "When I looked into his eyes, I saw 3 letters: K-G-B !"

[zg18]

I might also quote John Mc Cain: "When I looked into his eyes, I saw 3 letters: K-G-B !"

McCain drank to much scotch when he said that, when i looked into Putin's eyes i saw three letters G-A-S p-)

[intelligenzija]

Do you have an idea how the west- German Authorities looked like for maybe 20 years after 1945? Most Judges used to be members of NSDAP, a lot of leading persons had a nazi past. Look at Helmut Schmidt.

So what, were they all war criminals? Of course not.


I have the same view on KGB - not everyone was a murderer or evil. They were serving their country. The CIA killed people - would you say all Americans who were working in the Agency or for other authorities were criminals?

It's really what Susumu says.. selective memory, Russia bashing, predjudices..

[Xaito]

I might tell you that the KGB was murdering German citizens inside West Germany, and also abducting them into the Soviet Union or East Germany for torture. Most likely the persons would simply disappear.

Are you talking about denazification or about secret service work in general of that time?


KGB is just another criminal murderous communist agency in the mind of Germans ...
why communist?
you say it like you didn't have your share of infamous agencies - or are those already forgotten now that there is a foreign scapegoat that can be blamed for everything that was or is bad?


I might also quote John Mc Cain: "When I looked into his eyes, I saw 3 letters: K-G-B !"
yeah good man to quote - same guy who said Putin was the President of Germany.

[Red_Rage]

I might also quote John Mc Cain: "When I looked into his eyes, I saw 3 letters: K-G-B !"


"I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul. I knew that President Putin was a man with whom I could work.” G.W. Bush

Since McCain is a senile loser, and Bush is 2-time winner, I'll take Bush's quote :)

[tluassa]

Are you talking about denazification or about secret service work in general of that time?

They were abducting mainly former East German citizens who fled to the West and were telling the truth about things in the Soviet Zones.

_____________________________________________________________________
why communist?
you say it like you didn't have your share of infamous agencies - or are those already forgotten now that there is a foreign scapegoat that can be blamed for everything that was or is bad?

Ohh of course, in West Germany we had the "Organisation Gehlen" - made up largely by former Gestapo and Wehrmacht Secret Service Men. But those today dont get awards and decorations by Russia do they ?


yeah good man to quote - same guy who said Putin was the President of Germany.

I made that quote to show that the KGB is not only causing bad memories in Germany, but in every nation that was "targeted" by them. The Russians themselv have more fears of their secret service than anyone in the West anyways.
_______________________________

[Xaito]

They were abducting mainly former East German citizens who fled to the West and were telling the truth about things in the Soviet Zones.
aren't you making it too easy?
From the Soviet perspective they have left the Soviet Zone illegally no matter the reason.
Apart from that I'm not sure one should make the renegades all into heroes without any caution - can't say what some of these people might have been wanted for in the first place to have had the need to risk a flight to the west.


But those today dont get awards and decorations by Russia do they ?

maybe because they haven't done anything for Russia to get decorations?
At least Putin wasn't made Pope, eh? ;)


I made that quote to show that the KGB is not only causing bad memories in Germany, but in every nation that was "targeted" by them.
That's what I'm talking about - the KGB seems to be causing "bad memories" to many people who probably didn't ever in their life interacted with the organization and the only "memories" they have are myths they hear and not own experience.

[SrB-23Q]

I might also quote John Mc Cain: "When I looked into his eyes, I saw 3 letters: K-G-B !"

sounds like something a 10 year old would say

[tluassa]

"aren't you making it too easy?
From the Soviet perspective they have left the Soviet Zone illegally no matter the reason."

Are you trying to legitimize the killing of hundereds of German citizens that were killed simply because they wouldnt want to live in a corrupt dictatorship ?
They were kidnapped from the street in West Berlin, pushed into cars and never seen again. No state has the right to do that, and it even more gives these People the right to leave the Soviet hemisphere dont you think. You seem to be very much defending a system that killed as many People as Nazism.

[Xaito]

Are you trying to legitimize the killing of hundereds of German citizens that were killed simply because they wouldnt want to live in a corrupt dictatorship ?
I'm not trying to legitimize anything I just say that things might have been less simple then you try to make it look like.
And also I'm saying that blaming everything on the Soviet Union is self righteous and doesn't reflect the whole reality of the history.
It were rough times after WW2 was just over and the cold war started.
Besides - Germany was a corrupt dictatorship before and during the war - not afterwards.
Afterwards it was an occupied, divided nation and in the case of east Germany after it's time of occupied zone a one party state - not a dictatorship.




They were kidnapped from the street in West Berlin, pushed into cars and never seen again. No state has the right to do that,
I agree to that - though the KGB wasn't the only one to do that - and even today -after the cold war - there are known cases of illegal activity by secret services.
It's a problem that seems to haunt many if not all similar organizations.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

Does not really matter, if a medal can make sure russia delivers the gas you need, it's worth it.

In the end Germans might benefit from making Putin feels like he's somebody. So who cares if he's a kgb agent.

The Greens can't think straight and can't stop caring about the rest of the world, if they don't like it, stop using russian gas.

It's a right decision and it can be beneficial to ordinary germans~

[Xaito]

In the end Germans might benefit from making Putin feels like he's somebody.

well he actually is somebody already.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

well he actually is somebody already.

yeah, tru, that's why its even more important not to 'offend' him in anyway, esp when you award him a medal, which is symbolic yet very cheap. And german ppl might benefit from that.

The chinese approach towards russia is very clear, we don't make them our enemy, and we say heaps of good stuff which make him happy and we diversify our import of oil and gas to make sure just in case he's mad with china some day. Have some military cooperation with Russia to improve China's hardware but never openly challenge America alongside Putin. And never say a word about Chechens except that "we do not interfere" (ie, feel free to do what u want to do).

[Macs.]

Does not really matter, if a medal can make sure russia delivers the gas you need, it's worth it.

In the end Germans might benefit from making Putin feels like he's somebody. So who cares if he's a kgb agent.

The Greens can't think straight and can't stop caring about the rest of the world, if they don't like it, stop using russian gas.

It's a right decision and it can be beneficial to ordinary germans~

It has nothing to do with the gas, do you seriously think giving a medal to Putin will solve the crisis ?

And also it's not like Russia is delivering gas as a thank-you present, we pay Billions and Billions for it. :cantbeli:

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

It has nothing to do with the gas, do you seriously think giving a medal to Putin will solve the crisis ?

And also it's not like Russia is delivering gas as a thank-you present, we pay Billions and Billions for it. :cantbeli:

I think Russia is deeply 'hurt' by the fall of Soviet union and how they have to beg for help in the 90's. Such mood plus Russia's 'toughness' (ie doing things without thinking) makes russian leaders attitude much irrational sometimes.

So there's a need to calm it down, and as long as there are ppl from EU who question heaps of stuff regarding russia's human rights and its war in Chechen, russians will suspect the west will again want to bring it down, i mean, yeah, why do you care about russia if it's something none of your business. Also the issue of Ukraine, the Nato and EU does not need ukraine that much and therefore there's no such need to pick sides, and if Eu stops supporting Ukraine, Russia might not have such a prolonged row with Ukraine because the reason why Ukraine can be so persistant is partly because they think they have the support of the EU and US.

So EU need to put its own ppl's interest first and some prob that's not really a big issue for EU then should be left to Russia to solve. It's not a matter of moral highground, it's more about how to protect ppl from EU from being harmed by things they don't deserve.

China has its suspicion towards russia as well, but because we have this suspicion, we make sure we do not argue with the stuff that does not matter to us and keep all those opinions to ourselves.

And diversify ur gas import now. And you see why we buy oil from Sudan?

[1curious]

@ brandenvonbeneckendorff

All three of your posts have much rational thought, true, except for some nonsense superiority complex ideas you showed and the following statement:

"I think Russia is deeply 'hurt' by the fall of Soviet union and how they have to beg for help in the 90's. Such mood plus Russia's 'toughness' (ie doing things without thinking) makes russian leaders attitude much irrational sometimes."

This is a popular cliché that might indeed have a connection to some dying out commies and ultra-nationalists but it’s certainly not the main dimension Putin operates in. He showed many times his pragmatic and calculating side. He also, as any shrewd politician, is not shy of using the nationalistic card.
Yet, you and most, are missing the main point. Putin and his government represent a country in transition struggling to recover from 17 years of economic chaos and altered identity. This is not much dissimilar to what Germany had to experience in 1945. Granted, the parallel is not perfect but you get the point. Russia’s reach out to Germany is a purely pragmatic issue just as it is for Germany. Russia’s complex of inferiority is towards America, not Europe. Current Kremlin team knows its limitations but they are confident, analytical and far from emotional. What you and many perceive as irrational is quite the opposite to them. There is a difference in thought processes between the established, rules-based societies and those that are still in transition.

[103]

...There, the man who just turned off natural gas supplies to half of Europe...
An error in the article. The gas supply was just turned on.

[1curious]

An error in the article. The gas supply was just turned on.
It's more than an error in the article - it's a factually wrong, politically-motivated sound byte...and btw, gas is not flowing yet because Ukrainian valves are still shut. Read the primary sources.

[davey]

I might also quote John Mc Cain: "When I looked into his eyes, I saw 3 letters: K-G-B !"
It's the same McCain who said: "We are all Georgians now" after inspiration provided by some regime that targeted elderly people with indiscriminate area weapon fire in the early hours of the morning. Why should I take anything this asshole said seriously?

Typical Spiegel article. A top read for Russophobes. Come on guys. The Cold War is over. The commies have only a few percent support in Russia. Germany got past its Nazi history and had the opportunity to be successfully reconciled and reintegrated into Europe. Russia deserves this chance too. Spiegel, being a German publication, should take note and bring some balance to its barrage of anti-Russian articles.

The prevailing Western attitude towards Russia reminds me, as a German, of the attitude towards the Weimar Republic. We all know how the continuous and excessive humiliation following WW1 aided the rise of excessive nationalism and eventually, fascism and Hitler. Excessive Russia bashing will only achieve negative results. It already stimulates excessive nationalism in some quarters in Russia and who knows what will follow next. We certainly don't want to repeat history.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

@ brandenvonbeneckendorff

All three of your posts have much rational thought, true, except for some nonsense superiority complex ideas you showed and the following statement:

"I think Russia is deeply 'hurt' by the fall of Soviet union and how they have to beg for help in the 90's. Such mood plus Russia's 'toughness' (ie doing things without thinking) makes russian leaders attitude much irrational sometimes."

This is a popular cliché that might indeed have a connection to some dying out commies and ultra-nationalists but it’s certainly not the main dimension Putin operates in. He showed many times his pragmatic and calculating side. He also, as any shrewd politician, is not shy of using the nationalistic card.
Yet, you and most, are missing the main point. Putin and his government represent a country in transition struggling to recover from 17 years of economic chaos and altered identity. This is not much dissimilar to what Germany had to experience in 1945. Granted, the parallel is not perfect but you get the point. Russia’s reach out to Germany is a purely pragmatic issue just as it is for Germany. Russia’s complex of inferiority is towards America, not Europe. Current Kremlin team knows its limitations but they are confident, analytical and far from emotional. What you and many perceive as irrational is quite the opposite to them. There is a difference in thought processes between the established, rules-based societies and those that are still in transition.

First, i think it's ok for anyone to grieve over things, i mean i would feel crushed if i were a russian.

Second, the biggest prob with russian politics is that it's very much anti-establishment. and sometimes russia leadership, esp under putin, tends to do things beyond its power, just like the US. I mean, Russia does not need to be antagonistic towards all of its former soviet neighbours, i mean if you have bad relationship with all of them from czech republic, poland, hungary to ukraine, georgia and belarus, that's just going to work. From my experience, China has nemesis alongside its borders, but we always make sure there are always more friends than enemies. Like China does not have good relationship with Vietnam but we have good relationship with the rest of the SE Asian countries so no one would rally behind VN to counter-balance China. We have bad relationship with india, but we have good relationship with pakistan and napal. This is the biggest blunder of Putin. And Chinese govt has hardly ever talked about the US in a tone Putin did, its not that we don't have our opinions, but because since US is sooooooo strong, it will better to avoid a big confrontation.

And because i think russia takes its pride very seriously, with justification, therefore China is keeping all those stuff about russia to ourselves to try to have a better deal in the oil and gas business while attempting hard to diversify it.

[1curious]

@brandenvonbeneckendorff (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=52964)
Different culture, different history, different geography. Not saying Putin had not made mistakes - he made plenty, like, for example, his super aggressive involvement in Ukrainian politics in 2004 - but he learned quickly. China was never under the the Western "advisers" influence like Russia in the early 1990's. it was a disaster and the backlash is obvious. China never broke up into 15 parts designed to be together economically. These 15 parts with 15 different governments need time to deal with each others inter dependencies.

The latest Russia-Ukraine gas war is just one huge example - the Soviets designed the EXPORT pipeline to be concentrated in Ukraine never anticipating that one day they will be the national treasure of an independent country seeking maximum value from the supplier of gas. And so on....

Detailed evaluation of the differences can reveal more. Don't rush to conclusions.

Added: the strategic/military differences between the US and Russia on the one hand, and China and the US on the other are also quite revealing. Russia's advanced and massive nuclear retaliation option vs.rather primitive China's capability had always warranted more hostile
treatment for Russia. This is China's near future, BTW.

[Red_Rage]

First, i think it's ok for anyone to grieve over things, i mean i would feel crushed if i were a russian.
Crushed? Everyone I know is fairly happy that we got rid of an oppressive, backwards system. Should i feel crushed that I gained the ability to travel everywhere? To be compensated fairly? To have my own political views? To use unrestricted Google? Average person cares more about how much is in his pockets, than how many ballistic missles his coutnry have. Fall of SU was empowering really, not crushing (HOW it was done, that's a different story).



Second, the biggest prob with russian politics is that it's very much anti-establishment. and sometimes russia leadership, esp under putin, tends to do things beyond its power, just like the US. I mean, Russia does not need to be antagonistic towards all of its former soviet neighbours, i mean if you have bad relationship with all of them from czech republic, poland, hungary to ukraine, georgia and belarus, that's just going to work. Are we supposed to kiss their arses while the are pouring buckets of dirt on us? We'll just sit and take the **** till we are powerful again, right?



From my experience, China has nemesis alongside its borders, but we always make sure there are always more friends than enemies.Are you sure they are really friends? I'd rather have one friend like Belarus than 10 like Pakistan. Everyone is being "friendly" with Chinese due to economic boom. Most detest the Chinese political system and view Chinese as the new potential enemy.


Like China does not have good relationship with Vietnam but we have good relationship with the rest of the SE Asian countries so no one would rally behind VN to counter-balance China. We have bad relationship with india, but we have good relationship with pakistan and napal.And Russians are friendly with India, which is not a failing terrorist state, so what is your point? Difference between China and Russia is that Russia has been a major player in international affairs since late 17th century - we know who and where our friends are, and they are not in Poland or Pakistan.


This is the biggest blunder of Putin. And Chinese govt has hardly ever talked about the US in a tone Putin did, its not that we don't have our opinions, but because since US is sooooooo strong, it will better to avoid a big confrontation. Chinese Communist party keeps their opinions to themselves, because without U.S. it is back to third world dirt-poor agrarian economy with 1.5 billion people for China. Average Chinese inside China has no official opinion - Party thinks for him. Since U.S. is not holding Russian "economic crackpipe", Putin can assume any rhetoric he wants. Plus Chinese and Russian mentalities are different - we say it how it is and in your face, while Chinese prefer to reserve their opinions and generally keep quiet (I've noticed that we Chinese co-workers as well).


And because i think russia takes its pride very seriously, with justification, therefore China is keeping all those stuff about russia to ourselves to try to have a better deal in the oil and gas business while attempting hard to diversify it.

Pride has nothing to do with business. I have hard time believing that Putin or Medvedev make their decisions based on emotional outbursts of pride.

[Flamming_Python]

I agree with brandenvonbeneckendorff (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=52964), China is playing a smart man's game. Specifically, it is focussing on just growing its economy and providing for its citizens while watching the results of the latest Russia-America grudge match.

[Mousepad]

I agree with brandenvonbeneckendorff (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=52964), China is playing a smart man's game. Specifically, it is focussing on just growing its economy and providing for its citizens while watching the results of the latest Russia-America grudge match.

Agree, in China's case Silence is truly golden

[serg123]

It is important to notice that Putin wasn't KGB agent. He was KGB officer.

[widi243]

KGB is just another criminal murderous communist agency in the mind of Germans ...



Not only for Germany and KGB is a succesor of NKVD. What organisation was NKVD nobody who knows history well have no doubts.

[widi243]

McCain drank to much scotch when he said that, when i looked into Putin's eyes i saw three letters G-A-S p-)

You didn't read so weel beacause there was written "lack of GAS' ;)p-)

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

Crushed? Everyone I know is fairly happy that we got rid of an oppressive, backwards system. Should i feel crushed that I gained the ability to travel everywhere? To be compensated fairly? To have my own political views? To use unrestricted Google? Average person cares more about how much is in his pockets, than how many ballistic missles his coutnry have. Fall of SU was empowering really, not crushing (HOW it was done, that's a different story).


Are we supposed to kiss their arses while the are pouring buckets of dirt on us? We'll just sit and take the **** till we are powerful again, right?


Are you sure they are really friends? I'd rather have one friend like Belarus than 10 like Pakistan. Everyone is being "friendly" with Chinese due to economic boom. Most detest the Chinese political system and view Chinese as the new potential enemy.

And Russians are friendly with India, which is not a failing terrorist state, so what is your point? Difference between China and Russia is that Russia has been a major player in international affairs since late 17th century - we know who and where our friends are, and they are not in Poland or Pakistan.

Chinese Communist party keeps their opinions to themselves, because without U.S. it is back to third world dirt-poor agrarian economy with 1.5 billion people for China. Average Chinese inside China has no official opinion - Party thinks for him. Since U.S. is not holding Russian "economic crackpipe", Putin can assume any rhetoric he wants. Plus Chinese and Russian mentalities are different - we say it how it is and in your face, while Chinese prefer to reserve their opinions and generally keep quiet (I've noticed that we Chinese co-workers as well).



Pride has nothing to do with business. I have hard time believing that Putin or Medvedev make their decisions based on emotional outbursts of pride.


One thing clear: there's no friend as such in international politics, being 'friends' means those countries have 'common interests'. So it's like friends in the social aspects.

And of course, Russia's major player, i'm not disputing that, but I think deng xiaoping's diplomatic philosophy which is 'hide your brightness and bide ur time' suits russia more. And I personally think russia still needs time to recover so, it does not mean u suck because u hide ur brightness and bide a better time.

And to solve the issues amongs the former communist states, i suggest russia to look at how China solved the prob with SE Asian countries, 20 yrs ago, they were all anti-China, and now prob the only one left in Vietnam and frankly it's too small and major SE asian countries such as Malaysia, indonesia and singapore and thailand don't really give a damn, and they wont join together to support VN. So there's a chance to reconciliate with most of the eastern europe countries, just a matter how you use your power smartly.

[Flamming_Python]

Since you dont seem to have a clue on Postwar Germany, I might tell you that the KGB was murdering German citizens inside West Germany, and also abducting them into the Soviet Union or East Germany for torture. Most likely the persons would simply disappear.

Hmm obviously you do have a clue then? The organisation you're thinking of is called the STASI, not KGB.

[Macs.]

Hmm obviously you do have a clue then? The organisation you're thinking of is called the STASI, not KGB.

The KGB also acted in East-Germany (And obviously undercover in the west, too), hence why Putin was "stationed" in Dresden.

[Flamming_Python]

One thing clear: there's no friend as such in international politics, being 'friends' means those countries have 'common interests'. So it's like friends in the social aspects.

And of course, Russia's major player, i'm not disputing that, but I think deng xiaoping's diplomatic philosophy which is 'hide your brightness and bide ur time' suits russia more. And I personally think russia still needs time to recover so, it does not mean u suck because u hide ur brightness and bide a better time.

And to solve the issues amongs the former communist states, i suggest russia to look at how China solved the prob with SE Asian countries, 20 yrs ago, they were all anti-China, and now prob the only one left in Vietnam and frankly it's too small and major SE asian countries such as Malaysia, indonesia and singapore and thailand don't really give a damn, and they wont join together to support VN. So there's a chance to reconciliate with most of the eastern europe countries, just a matter how you use your power smartly.

I agree with a lot of what you say, you seem to be quite clued up. But remember that China can afford to bide its time; its interests are not under immediate threat. Russia was forced into a confrontational posture some time around 2006/2007, when the extent of Western interest in Central Asian gas, ABM defence plans in Eastern Europe, and support of coloured revolutions in the former USSR and Russia became clear.

Until that time, even when NATO controlled nearly all of Eastern Europe, the bombing of Yugoslavia, invasion of friendly Iraq, symphathy to Chechen rebels, shady deals with the oligarchs in the 90's, non-ratification of treaties on arms restrictions, the complete ignoring by the West of all Russian interests; Russia was still in a co-operative mood, withdrawing from its bases in Cuba and Vietnam, offering America assistance in securing military bases in Central Asia following 9/11, increasing projects with EU and NATO, proposing joint missile defence, etc...

Eastern Europe has generally been very hostile to Russia since 1991, but Russia has managed to swing some countries closer to its side, including some that weren't allies in the Soviet period, such as Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. Belarus remains firmly in the Russian orbit, Slovakia is close politically, Greece and Cyprus defend our interests in NATO and the EU. Armenia is a reliable ally, and Azerbaijan and Moldova basically have no choice but to co-operate. We have working business relationships with Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic. We aren't in immediate confrontation with Turkey and have reasonable political ties and huge economic relations with them. The Georgian war gave us a wider picture of European-Russian relations, and it became clear that Russia has managed to secure the neutrality of Germany, the co-operation of France and the friendship of Italy.

[gazell]

You didn't read so weel beacause there was written "lack of GAS' ;)p-)

Oh, I shall be forgiven, that's very funny.rofl

Just read there is less production due to financial difficulties. there we go all the way recession.p-)

[Indiana Jones]

Hmm obviously you do have a clue then? The organisation you're thinking of is called the STASI, not KGB.
You are quite mistaken.
The KGB did in fact murder and abduct West German citizens on the FRGs soil, as did of course the Stasi.
Cheers,
IJ.

[LineDoggie]

I take it Arthur Harris wasnt in the running?

[Mousepad]

Bwahahaha rofl Shame on You (sooo wrong)

[CPL Trevoga]

Not only for Germany and KGB is a succesor of NKVD. What organisation was NKVD nobody who knows history well have no doubts.

I just don't understand why you Polaki always want to ruin our Russo-German oktoberlovefest?

[asch]

I just don't understand why you Polaki always want to ruin our Russo-German oktoberlovefest?
erm... might we invite them next time? Balalaikas, kielbasa and bavarian beer can be the right combination.
p-)

[SniperRu]

erm... might we invite them next time? Balalaikas, kielbasa and bavarian beer can be the right combination.
p-)


wow, that would be one hell of a party, we should all be drinking beer together instead of fighting

[toki]

Does not really matter, if a medal can make sure russia delivers the gas you need, it's worth it.

In the end Germans might benefit from making Putin feels like he's somebody. So who cares if he's a kgb agent.

The Greens can't think straight and can't stop caring about the rest of the world, if they don't like it, stop using russian gas.

It's a right decision and it can be beneficial to ordinary germans~

You have to understand that this story isn't that much about Germany, but one of the federal states, Saxony. They have local historic ties with Russia different to those in the western states. I don't think it would fly in this state. And as others said, this medal has nothing to do with gas. It's some sort of a local saxon neurotic event manager type politician, who tried to sell his opera ball.
He doesn't speak on behalf of the country.

The Greens can't think?

"It is cynical and scandalous," says Werner Schulz, a former Green Party member of German parliament who currently heads a government-funded organization devoted to the examination and reappraisal of the Communist dictatorship in East Germany.
I don't know where you're from, i'm not a Green. But in certain times they even share values with the conservatives in this countrys. They're simply too established to be the old eco freaks. What's wrong with examining the eastern German dictatorship?

[Flamming_Python]

You are quite mistaken.
The KGB did in fact murder and abduct West German citizens on the FRGs soil, as did of course the Stasi.
Cheers,
IJ.

My bad :-(

[Eye]

Eastern Europe has generally been very hostile to Russia since 1991,
Not since 1991, but since beginning of XVIII c., and not Eastern Europe has been hostile to Russia, but Russia has been greatest threat to freedom in Eastern Europe.

[serg123]

The KGB also acted in East-Germany (And obviously undercover in the west, too), hence why Putin was "stationed" in Dresden.
KGB had more than 10 various departments. Putin worked for so called 1st department (spying department). Killing abroad was prohibited in KGB since killing ukrainian nationalist Bandera in Germany in 50s (actually this guy was sentensed to death by USSR high curt). Exeption happened in Afganistan but it was rather part of big military operation. In modern Russia there was killing of checen guy in Quatar. After that russian parlament acepted law that president in some cases may order killing abroad, like Israel do.

[serg123]

Not since 1991, but since beginning of XVIII c., and not Eastern Europe has been hostile to Russia, but Russia has been greatest threat to freedom in Eastern Europe.
You mean that Osman impire, Austria impire, Prussia, Sweeden kingdom etc. were "beacon of democracy and freedom" that time? :-)

[Mackie]

Uhhhhh. Dresden Medal of honor. rofl

[Snoshi]

Killing abroad was prohibited in KGB since killing ukrainian nationalist Bandera in Germany in 50s (actually this guy was sentensed to death by USSR high curt).
Wat???.....

[Flamming_Python]

Not since 1991, but since beginning of XVIII c., and not Eastern Europe has been hostile to Russia, but Russia has been greatest threat to freedom in Eastern Europe.

No, Russia, as in Russian Federation; one of the 15 countries to emerge after the collapse of the USSR with a new government. This is the state to which newly independent and intensly nationalist Eastern Europe took a very hostile stance to after 1991. The USSR is one thing, but to pursue unfriendly policies to its successor state seems to be very counter-productive and has proved to be so.

Found an article from 1998 that I already posted in another thread:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903EEDB103EF931A35756C0A96E958260



Foreign Affairs; Now a Word From X


By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: May 2, 1998

His voice is a bit frail now, but the mind, even at age 94, is as sharp as ever. So when I reached George Kennan by phone to get his reaction to the Senate's ratification of NATO expansion it was no surprise to find that the man who was the architect of America's successful containment of the Soviet Union and one of the great American statesmen of the 20th century was ready with an answer.

''I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,'' said Mr. Kennan from his Princeton home. ''I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else. This expansion would make the Founding Fathers of this country turn over in their graves. We have signed up to protect a whole series of countries, even though we have neither the resources nor the intention to do so in any serious way. [NATO expansion] was simply a light-hearted action by a Senate that has no real interest in foreign affairs.''

''What bothers me is how superficial and ill informed the whole Senate debate was,'' added Mr. Kennan, who was present at the creation of NATO and whose anonymous 1947 article in the journal Foreign Affairs, signed ''X,'' defined America's cold-war containment policy for 40 years. ''I was particularly bothered by the references to Russia as a country dying to attack Western Europe. Don't people understand? Our differences in the cold war were with the Soviet Communist regime. And now we are turning our backs on the very people who mounted the greatest bloodless revolution in history to remove that Soviet regime.

''And Russia's democracy is as far advanced, if not farther, as any of these countries we've just signed up to defend from Russia,'' said Mr. Kennan, who joined the State Department in 1926 and was U.S. Ambassador to Moscow in 1952. ''It shows so little understanding of Russian history and Soviet history. Of course there is going to be a bad reaction from Russia, and then [the NATO expanders] will say that we always told you that is how the Russians are -- but this is just wrong.''

One only wonders what future historians will say. If we are lucky they will say that NATO expansion to Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic simply didn't matter, because the vacuum it was supposed to fill had already been filled, only the Clinton team couldn't see it. They will say that the forces of globalization integrating Europe, coupled with the new arms control agreements, proved to be so powerful that Russia, despite NATO expansion, moved ahead with democratization and Westernization, and was gradually drawn into a loosely unified Europe. If we are unlucky they will say, as Mr. Kennan predicts, that NATO expansion set up a situation in which NATO now has to either expand all the way to Russia's border, triggering a new cold war, or stop expanding after these three new countries and create a new dividing line through Europe.

But there is one thing future historians will surely remark upon, and that is the utter poverty of imagination that characterized U.S. foreign policy in the late 1990's. They will note that one of the seminal events of this century took place between 1989 and 1992 -- the collapse of the Soviet Empire, which had the capability, imperial intentions and ideology to truly threaten the entire free world. Thanks to Western resolve and the courage of Russian democrats, that Soviet Empire collapsed without a shot, spawning a democratic Russia, setting free the former Soviet republics and leading to unprecedented arms control agreements with the U.S.
And what was America's response? It was to expand the NATO cold-war alliance against Russia and bring it closer to Russia's borders.

Yes, tell your children, and your children's children, that you lived in the age of Bill Clinton and William Cohen, the age of Madeleine Albright and Sandy Berger, the age of Trent Lott and Joe Lieberman, and you too were present at the creation of the post-cold-war order, when these foreign policy Titans put their heads together and produced . . . a mouse.

We are in the age of midgets. The only good news is that we got here in one piece because there was another age -- one of great statesmen who had both imagination and courage.
As he said goodbye to me on the phone, Mr. Kennan added just one more thing: ''This has been my life, and it pains me to see it so screwed up in the end.''

[User_Name]

Uhhhhh. Dresden Medal of honor. rofl
Freistaat Sachsen Dresden ( IMHO cultural capital of Germany) Medal of honor:).





Wat???.....

That was claimed by former KGB chief Kryuchkov.

[Eye]

You mean that Osman impire, Austria impire, Prussia, Sweeden kingdom etc. were "beacon of democracy and freedom" that time? :-)
Of course they weren't, but Russia has been threat almost till today. Thanks God, oil prices dropped.
BTW, I don't think democracy is necessary for freedom. ;)

[gazell]

Both views are out of depth there, I think, someone more in the know than myself shall correct no doubt, but on one hand there is a mix up of SU with current and previous Russia. In which case, really even SU was a one party to 20th century agreements and it was pretty much a Western policy since beginning of century, spelled out at Trianon time, that they do not want a big strong country in Middle/Eastern Europe, still being carried out in 'divide et impera' fashion.

On the other hand earlier empires might not have been a beacon of democracy, however, some did rather well for their time, even better in some respects as nowadays, like Roma Dictionary and Roma Secratary to the General of Hungarian War of Independence how does that compare for today on A-H Empire?

Anyhow, Russia did not pose much threat to Europe in recent past at all, SU did, mostly Stalin did, but then, had all the support of the West and there was war.

[Brosulus]

@ Eye

I think that since XVIII eastern europe has been a threat to the freedom of Russia ...

[CPL Trevoga]

Of course they weren't, but Russia has been threat almost till today. Thanks God, oil prices dropped.
BTW, I don't think democracy is necessary for freedom. ;)

Hardly the case. Thanks to the gas crisis I know that USSR was pumping natural gaz to Nato countries during the Cold war. Why would they supply potential enemies?

The danger to peace are actually Eastern European circus governments, with their mindset somewhere in 17th century. Clowns in your "Free" government actually make Russian government look wise and respectable.

[serg123]

That was claimed by former KGB chief Kryuchkov.
My friend served in KGB and told me that more than 20 years ago.

[Snoshi]

My friend served in KGB and told me that more than 20 years ago.

So you are saying that after 1950's KGB made no assassination attempts aboard?

[Switek]

All ex and current commies are one bunch of mafia style club.

[RSCH12]

current commies

Oh please, show me those people.


So you are saying that after 1950's KGB made no assassination attempts aboard?

It's not like I'm going to argue about KGB, but I just want to know the sources to proven KGB assassinations aboard.

[Switek]

Oh please, show me those people.


... Saxony governor, Stanislaw Tillich ...

Once commie, forever commie p-)

[RSCH12]

Once commie, forever commie p-)

I don't believe you really beleve that they really believed in their ideology.
'Communists' born in a second half of 20th century are just natural-born greedy assh0lez with no ideology.


Just like any other politics in the world.

[Switek]

It's not only about ideology but, first of all style and overall performance...

[serg123]

It's not only about ideology but, first of all style and overall performance...
Prez Yushenko was a commie since 1975. Now I know why he had so ugly perfomance recently. :-)

Prez Saakashvily was just candidate to Communist Party membership (he didn't get membership because of ****o movies scandal), but has even more ugly performance than his friend.

[Switek]

If you refer to demoralization and contempt to certain values and simple decency, you're right.

[RSCH12]

Prez Saakashvily was just candidate to Communist Party membership (he didn't get membership because of ****o movies scandal),

Wait. What. Saakashvilly? ****?
Link to Torrent?

[serg123]

If you refer to demoralization and contempt to certain values and simple decency, you're right.
Why Poles voited for commie Kvasnevsky? Twice.

[serg123]

Wait. What. Saakashvilly? ****?
Link to Torrent?
He was manager - not actor :-)

[Eye]

Why Poles voited for commie Kvasnevsky? Twice.
I have no idea. :) Maybe because of mass media support? You know that people do TV orders.

[Switek]

Why Poles voited for commie Kvasnevsky? Twice.


Kwaśniewski, besides all his weaknesses and obvious disadvantages presented himself very well in media. An was typical media creature.

Personally I can wrote about him:

demoralized alcoholic and liar

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Hardly the case. Thanks to the gas crisis I know that USSR was pumping natural gaz to Nato countries during the Cold war. Why would they supply potential enemies?

Where the hell else were they going to sell it...? You act as if they were giving it like a present.

Also, from my understanding some countries like Germany, for example, get the majority of their gas from the North Sea fields. In the future this will change obviously.

[Mousepad]

KGB is just another criminal murderous communist agency in the mind of Germans ...

Since you dont seem to have a clue on Postwar Germany, I might tell you that the KGB was murdering German citizens inside West Germany, and also abducting them into the Soviet Union or East Germany for torture. Most likely the persons would simply disappear.

I might also quote John Mc Cain: "When I looked into his eyes, I saw 3 letters: K-G-B !"

Oh, wat a nice picture you drawned, like innocent chubby german with round glasses, walking his poodle, was jumped by two shady dudes from KGB, in leather overcoats and borsalinos, and dragged thru all ze Germany or Berlin to torture him just for luls, and Allies occupation force just - "wat can we do? we looked in they eyes and read KGB, so we stepped aside".

NKVD is a lot of things but irrational, they never would risk a higly trained personel for a random German, me think, that those abducted had a rich history in Ost-Front, like round up a village in barn and burning them alive, as i remember, it was like 1044 cases of this kind, so those fvcktards who passed the US/GB grid, were not forgiven by USSR and got what was due.

[Xaito]

Also, from my understanding some countries like Germany, for example, get the majority of their gas from the North Sea fields.
north Germany does.

[Alef]

I made that quote to show that the KGB is not only causing bad memories in Germany, but in every nation that was "targeted" by them. The Russians themselv have more fears of their secret service than anyone in the West anyways.
_______________________________
we have't...

[gazell]

This is just getting out of reasonable discussion of a topic, for all those being a bit biased or senile, if you were to be suspected of plotting against or attacking gov figures, the CIA or any equivalent body in any country would have a car seat for you, just to make that one clear.

Carry on.

[tluassa]

[QUOTE=Mousepad;3859269]Oh, wat a nice picture you drawned, like innocent chubby german with round glasses, walking his poodle, was jumped by two shady dudes from KGB, in leather overcoats and borsalinos, and dragged thru all ze Germany or Berlin to torture him just for luls, and Allies occupation force just - "wat can we do? we looked in they eyes and read KGB, so we stepped aside".

QUOTE:

"The same was blatantly evident in the case of Dr. Walter Linse, a prominent West German lawyer and acting president of the Association of Free German Jurists." Surely a War Criminal !

"To that end, SMERSH used four infamous criminals who were all serving long prison sentences in East Germany: Harry Liedtke, 22, who had bee imprisoned for robbery and assault; Herbert Novak, 27, imprisoned for life for murder; Joseph Dehnert, 22, a burglar; and Erwin Knispel, 27, who had been imprisoned for no less than eighteen separate serious crimes.

On July 7, 1952, Liedtke went from East to West Berlin, where he got into a taxi driven by Wilhelm Woiziske. He told Woiziske to drive to the Senefelderplatz in East Berlin. Knowing West Berlin cab drivers were reluctant to go into the soviet sector, Liedtke offered Woiziske a twenty-mark tip. A few moments after passing the checkpoint, Liedtke leaned forward and placed a carton of American cigarettes next to Woiziske and the grateful Woiziske murmured his thanks for the tip. When the taxi reached the Senefelderplatz, however, several German policemen rushed to the taxi, yanking Woiziske and Liedtke from the car, one of the officers shouting: "So you're the smugglers of American cigarettes."
Taken to East German police headquarters, Woiziske was locked up in a basement cell but he was not interrogated. It became obvious later that Liedtke's use of the taxi had only one purpose, to borrow the cab's West Berlin license plates. Those plates were affixed to another car that had no difficulty in passing the checkpoint into West Berlin early the following morning, July 8, 1952. The car contained Liedtke, Novak, Knispel, and Dehnert. The four men drove to the residence of Dr. Linse, who lived in the American sector of West Berlin at 12a Gerichstrasse in the suburb of Lichterfelde.
Linse, a prompt person, stepped as usual from his apartment house at precisely 7:30 A.M. and began walking toward his office, puffing on his pipe. As he came abreast of the car in which the four men sat, Liedtke and Dehnert got out and Dehnert went up to Linse holding an un-lighted cigarette. He asked the doctor for a match. Linse fumbled in his pockets and, as he did so. Liedtke slipped behind him and struck him a heavy blow on the head with a blackjack.

Dr. Linse, however, was tougher than expected and stood his ground, pushing the kidnappers away. Liedtke then grabbed the doctor around the waist and Dehnert clasped the victim's legs together, and they carried him to the car, attempting to toss Linse into the back seat. The doctor put up a fierce struggle until Novak pulled a pistol and shot Linse in the leg. He collapsed into the back seat, Liedtke and Dehnert falling on top of him.
Knispel. who was at the wheel, drove off at such a terrific speed that he ignored the fact that Dr. Linse's legs were protruding from the open rear door of the car. The car raced down the Drakenstrasse with a van in hot pursuit. The driver of the van had witnessed the abduction and was pursuing the kidnappers, a wild chase that soon included a West German police car.
Seeing that they were being pursued, the kidnappers leaned from the windows of their car and tossed tetrahedral nails to the cobblestones, believing that these would puncture the tires of the pursuing vehicles and bring them to a halt. The pursuers, however, managed to avoid the nails and began gaining on the kidnap car. Morning rush-hour crowds then provided an avenue of escape for the East Germans. Maneuvering the car between clusters of pedestrians, Knipsel managed to turn down a sidestreet and escape pursuit. The car then disappeared into East Berlin.
Woiziske, the cab driver, was taken form his cell a few hours later. An East German official apologized to him, saying that it had all been a mistake. The license plates had been reattached to his taxi, which was returned to Woiziske, who then drove back to West Berlin to tell authorities of his strange experience. The CIA and Reinhard Gehlen of West German intelligence soon pieced together the method by which SMERSH had abducted Dr. Linse."

SOURCE: "http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-12468.html"

[serg123]

"The same was blatantly evident in the case of Dr. Walter Linse, a prominent West German lawyer and acting president of the Association of Free German Jurists." Surely a War Criminal !

"To that end, SMERSH used four infamous criminals who were all serving long prison sentences in East Germany: Harry Liedtke, 22, who had bee imprisoned for robbery and assault; Herbert Novak, 27, imprisoned for life for murder; Joseph Dehnert, 22, a burglar; and Erwin Knispel, 27, who had been imprisoned for no less than eighteen separate serious crimes.

That is BS.

1. SMERSH wasn't a part of NKVD. It was counterspy unit in Ministry of Defence.

2. SMERSH didn't exist since 1946, so there couldn't be any activity of SMERSH in 1952.

There are a lot of myths about "mighty KGB". But my friend told me that KGB officers even couldn't ask anybody to show personal ID. So they had less rights than barmen in US. :-)

[User_Name]

"The same was blatantly evident in the case of Dr. Walter Linse, a prominent West German lawyer and acting president of the Association of Free German Jurists." Surely a War Criminal ....

Before copy paste, read his biography first.
He was not an innocent lamb. He was a nazi skum and his job was to make Chemnitz Industry "jew free".
in german (sorry, have no time to translate):

NS-Zeit 1938 trat er als Referent in die Industrie- und Handelskammer in Chemnitz ein,[1] (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Linse#cite_note-0) übernahm dort im September 1938 die „Bearbeitung von Entjudungsvorgängen“ und war bis 1940/41 ausschließlich mit der Arisierung (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisierung) der jüdischen Gewerbebetriebe im Bezirk Chemnitz betraut. Ausweislich einer im Bundesarchiv aufgefundenen Mitgliedskarte trat Linse am 1. Oktober 1940 mit der Mitgliedsnummer 8.336.675 in die NSDAP (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei) ein. Eine Unterschrift von Linse findet man dort nicht. Außerdem ist sein Vorname falsch geschrieben (Walther). Nach dem Abschluss der Arisierung übernahm er auch Aufgaben im Rahmen des „totalen Kriegseinsatzes“ bei der Koordinierung von jüdischer Zwangsarbeit (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwangsarbeit_in_der_Zeit_des_Nationalsozialismus) und war hierbei unter anderem dafür zuständig, Anträge kriegswichtiger Unternehmen auf Freistellung „halbjüdischer“ (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrnberger_Gesetze#Reichsb.C3.BCrgergesetz) Mitarbeiter von Einsätzen als Zwangsarbeiter in der Organisation Todt (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_Todt) zu bearbeiten. Sein Referat IIIe blieb bis 1945 für alle „Judenangelegenheiten“ in der IHK Chemnitz zuständig.

Im Auftrag des Landesbeauftragten legte der Jurist und Historiker Klaus Bästlein im September 2007 ein Gutachten zur Rolle Linses in den Jahren bis 1949 vor, das sich mit der Arbeit Kirschs kritisch auseinandersetzte und auf der Grundlage eigener Prüfung von Archivunterlagen und persönlichen Aufzeichnungen Linses zu dem Ergebnis kam, dass Linse sich zwar über seine Amtstätigkeit hinaus nicht mit antisemitischen Erklärungen hervorgetan habe, aber nicht nur als „Gehilfe“ des NS-Regimes, sondern aus historischer Sicht als ein „NS-Täter“ anzusehen sei, der die „Tatherrschaft“ bei der die wirtschaftlichen Ausplünderung der Juden im Chemnitzer Bezirk gehabt und sich nicht davor gescheut habe, „Juden in massiver Weise unter Druck zu setzen oder bei der Gestapo zu denunzieren“[4] (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Linse#cite_note-3). Nachdem auch der wissenschaftliche Beirat der Gedenkstätte Berlin-Hohenschönhausen den Förderverein aufgefordert hatte, wegen des noch ungeklärten Umfangs von Linses Verantwortung für NS-Unrecht auf diesen Namen zu verzichten[5] (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Linse#cite_note-4), zog der Förderverein am 6. Dezember 2007 diesen Namen zurück und gab bekannt, dass der Preis stattdessen „Hohenschönhausen-Preis zur Aufarbeitung der kommunistischen Diktatur“ heißen solle[6] (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Linse#cite_note-5)source http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Linse

[intelligenzija]

My friend served in KGB and told me that more than 20 years ago.

What about that Bulgarian who was killed with a special umbrella? It was the Bulgarian secret service but they had the assistance of KGB.
Can't believe they didn't try to assasinate some politicians abroad.

[serg123]

What about that Bulgarian who was killed with a special umbrella? It was the Bulgarian secret service but they had the assistance of KGB.

People kill - not weapon. KGB provided several umbrellas to Bulgaria, but it was Todor Jivkov's decision to kill Markov.


Can't believe they didn't try to assasinate some politicians abroad.
Can't believe that green people from Mars never visited the Earth.

[Eztyga]

So what does this gong look like?

[Indiana Jones]

"User name", "Serg123", I would ask both of you to read up on the matter beyond wikipedia articles before passing judgement, as neither of you appears to be well informed to put it mildly.

That is BS.

1. SMERSH wasn't a part of NKVD. It was counterspy unit in Ministry of Defence.

2. SMERSH didn't exist since 1946, so there couldn't be any activity of SMERSH in 1952.

There are a lot of myths about "mighty KGB". But my friend told me that KGB officers even couldn't ask anybody to show personal ID. So they had less rights than barmen in US. :-)First off, you are correct that SMERSH was indeed no longer in existence.
The abduction itself was conducted by the East German MfS, which however did not operate autonomously during the timeframe in question and was entirely reliant on its Soviet parent organisation for direction and approval. NKVD personnel were directly involved in the planning of the operations. I put this in plurals because there were numerous failed or aborted attempts on Linse before the actual kidnapping. See ie: BStU MfS GH 105/57, No 5 41-44.
In general, it would not be much of an exaggeration to state that at this stage the MfS was still little more than the MGB under a German guise.
This is further illustrated by the fact that Linse was immediately conferred to Soviet authorities and eventually killed by them after a trial that by all means deserves to be called farcical.

Before copy paste, read his biography first.
He was not an innocent lamb. He was a nazi skum and his job was to make Chemnitz Industry "jew free".No offence, but I`d ask you to take your own advice, as the subject is a wee bit more complex. In contemporary Allied parlance, Linse would have best been described as a Mitläufer. Even the most damning of the three expertises on his person (that would be Bästlein, which is fairly exclusively quoted on Wikipedia) states fairly categorically that Linse "by and large maintained his personal integrity"-my translation. That is not to say that Linse was a flawless democrat as he was certainly not, but to describe him as "nazi scum" is patently ridiculous considering what we know of his role during Nazi rule.
The implicit notion that Linses unspectacular history in the NSDAP had anything to do with the Soviet decision to "liquidate" him is by the way absurd.
As we know from SAPMO, both the Soviets and the East Germans were not shy of enlisting people with far more damning backgrounds when it became opportune, to include former members of the SD and the Einsatzgruppen.
If anything, the sad fate of Dr. Linse documents that the Soviet Union was indeed by no means above judicial murder of foreign nationals.
Cheers,
IJ.

[User_Name]

No offence, but I`d ask you to take your own advice, as the subject is a wee bit more complex. In contemporary Allied parlance, Linse would have best been described as a Mitläufer.

I would call him a "Täter", because of his role in the "Entjudung". To call him a "Mitläufer" would mean that he was an "einfacher Beamter" in NS-Regime.



The implicit notion that Linses unspectacular history in the NSDAP had anything to do with the Soviet decision to "liquidate" him is by the way absurd.
I do not said that.
He was killed because he caused danger to soviet regime and their politics in DDR.

[serg123]

"User name", "Serg123", I would ask both of you to read up on the matter beyond wikipedia articles before passing judgement, as neither of you appears to be well informed to put it mildly.
First off, you are correct that SMERSH was indeed no longer in existence.

My comments related only to quoted peace of text about SMERSH. But if article contains so simple errors then it became questionable for me as a whole.


The abduction itself was conducted by the East German MfS, which however did not operate autonomously during the timeframe in question and was entirely reliant on its Soviet parent organisation for direction and approval. NKVD personnel were directly involved in the planning of the operations. I put this in plurals because there were numerous failed or aborted attempts on Linse before the actual kidnapping. See ie: BStU MfS GH 105/57, No 5 41-44.

Actually NKVD also didn't exist since 1946. And it is quite popular now among countries of eastern block and among some former republics of USSR to say that they are good and that anything bad happened in the past was according direct instructions from some ugly guys in Kremlin. :-).




In general, it would not be much of an exaggeration to state that at this stage the MfS was still little more than the MGB under a German guise.
This is further illustrated by the fact that Linse was immediately conferred to Soviet authorities and eventually killed by them after a trial that by all means deserves to be called farcical.

I think there were a lot of unfair or unjustified actions made during denazification of Germany. But it was tough time just after big war. Some people consider Saddam trial farcical and think that Mr. Bush killed more civilian iraquies than Saddam.

Returning to my point. I just mentioned that after 1959 killing abroad was prohibited in KGB. I understand that it is hard to believe on that taking in mind CIA's dozens attempts of assasination just against Fidel Kastro in that cold war times.

[Indiana Jones]

My comments related only to quoted peace of text about SMERSH. But if article contains so simple errors then it became questionable for me as a whole.

Granted. The rest is factually accurate though.

Actually NKVD also didn't exist since 1946.
To say that its designation was changed would be more fitting. However the Soviet personnel are referred to as belonging to the "NWD" (=NKVD) in the East German primary documentation itself. Old habits die hard, it appears.

And it is quite popular now among countries of eastern block and among some former republics of USSR to say that they are good and that anything bad happened in the past was according direct instructions from some ugly guys in Kremlin. :-).
The Soviet satellites and their respective intelligence agencies have a lot to answer for themselves, make no mistake. Still, they ultimately ruled by Soviet grace and whatever autonomy they were conceded later on was on permanent recall, as demonstrated by the various Soviet interventions in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and elsewhere.
Anyways, the operation in question was directed and organized by Soviet organs, as was the successive murder of Linse.

Some people consider Saddam trial farcical and think that Mr. Bush killed more civilian iraquies than Saddam.

I do not see how the "trial" of Mr Linse is comparable or how the entire paragraph possibly pertains to the situation at hand in the first place. At least the latter part of your statement is also outright false.

Returning to my point. I just mentioned that after 1959 killing abroad was prohibited in KGB.
I am aware of that, no argument from me here.

Cheers,
IJ.

[Indiana Jones]

I would call him a "Täter", because of his role in the "Entjudung". To call him a "Mitläufer" would mean that he was an "einfacher Beamter" in NS-Regime.

Hello,

First off, please take notice that my comment was made with regards to the Allied denazification terminology. Actually Linse had, as far as I am aware, been classified as "entlastet", which is of course rather absurd. However, the category of "Täter" does not exist in the first place; therefore I fail to see the relevance of that injection in this particular context.
As to Linses role during Nazi rule, I think neither the epiphtet of "einfacher Beamter" nor that of the "Täter" actually fits, at least not exclusively so, as that simply creates a false dichotomy. These are not mutually exclusive. That is of course not meant to be particularly apologetic. There is no question that Linse was actively involved in an unsavoury business after all, as were many Germans who failed to see the fundamental wrongs of the regime or did not want to acknowledge them for whatever reasons. However, if one familiarizes oneself with Linses career during the national socialist regime, one will note the absence of any particular antisemitic zeal on Linses part. Rather profane opportunistic motives seem to have played a far more formidable role-thus the characterisation as a "Mitläufer".
Cheers,
IJ.