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View Full Version : Stratfor's CEO: 21. Century Belongs to Turkey, USA, Poland, Japan and Mexico



saladin
01-19-2009, 10:10 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Next-100-Years-Forecast-Century/dp/038551705X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232416520&sr=8-1



By George Friedman at Stratfor.Com

OVERTURE
An Introduction to the American Age

Imagine that you were alive in the summer of 1900, living in London, then the capital of the world. Europe ruled the Eastern Hemisphere. There was hardly a place that, if not ruled directly, was not indirectly controlled from a European capital. Europe was at peace and enjoying unprecedented prosperity. Indeed, European interdependence due to trade and investment was so great that serious people were claiming that war had become impossible—and if not impossible, would end within weeks of beginning—because global financial markets couldn’t withstand the strain. The future seemed fixed: a peaceful, prosperous Europe would rule the world.

Imagine yourself now in the summer of 1920. Europe had been torn apart by an agonizing war. The continent was in tatters. The Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German, and Ottoman empires were gone and millions had died in a war that lasted for years. The war ended when an American army of a million men intervened—an army that came and then just as quickly left. Communism dominated Russia, but it was not clear that it could survive. Countries that had been on the periphery of European power, like the United States and Japan, suddenly emerged as great powers. But one thing was certain—the peace treaty that had been imposed on Germany guaranteed that it would not soon reemerge.

Imagine the summer of 1940. Germany had not only reemerged but conquered France and dominated Europe. Communism had survived and the Soviet Union now was allied with Nazi Germany. Great Britain alone stood against Germany, and from the point of view of most reasonable people, the war was over. If there was not to be a thousand-year Reich, then certainly Europe’s fate had been decided for a century. Germany would dominate Europe and inherit its empire.

Imagine now the summer of 1960. Germany had been crushed in the war, defeated less than five years later. Europe was occupied, split down the middle by the United States and the Soviet Union. The European empires were collapsing, and the United States and Soviet Union were competing over who would be their heir. The United States had the Soviet Union
surrounded and, with an overwhelming arsenal of nuclear weapons, could annihilate it in hours. The United States had emerged as the global superpower. It dominated all of the world’s oceans, and with its nuclear force could dictate terms to anyone in the world. Stalemate was the best the Soviets could hope for—unless the Soviets invaded Germany and conquered Europe. That was the war everyone was preparing for. And in the back of everyone’s mind, the Maoist Chinese, seen as fanatical, were the other danger.

Now imagine the summer of 1980. The United States had been defeated in a seven-year war—not by the Soviet Union, but by communist North Vietnam. The nation was seen, and saw itself, as being in retreat. Expelled from Vietnam, it was then expelled from Iran as well, where the oil fields, which it no longer controlled, seemed about to fall into the hands of the Soviet Union. To contain the Soviet Union, the United States had formed an alliance with Maoist China—the American president and the Chinese chairman holding an amiable meeting in Beijing. Only this alliance seemed able to contain the powerful Soviet Union, which appeared to be surging.

Imagine now the summer of 2000. The Soviet Union had completely collapsed. China was still communist in name but had become capitalist in practice. NATO had advanced into Eastern Europe and even into the former Soviet Union. The world was prosperous and peaceful. Everyone knew that geopolitical considerations had become secondary to economic considerations, and the only problems were regional ones in basket cases like Haiti or Kosovo.

Then came September 11, 2001, and the world turned on its head again. At a certain level, when it comes to the future, the only thing one can be sure of is that common sense will be wrong. There is no magic twenty-year cycle; there is no simplistic force governing this pattern. It is simply that the things that appear to be so permanent and dominant at any given moment in history can change with stunning rapidity. Eras come and go. In international relations, the way the world looks right now is not at all how it will look in twenty years . . . or even less. The fall of the Soviet Union was hard to imagine, and that is exactly the point. Conventional political analysis suffers from a profound failure of imagination. It imagines passing clouds to be permanent and is blind to powerful, long- term shifts taking place in full
view of the world.

If we were at the beginning of the twentieth century, it would be impossible to forecast the particular events I’ve just listed. But there are some things that could have been—and, in fact, were—forecast. For example, it was obvious that Germany, having united in 1871, was a major power in an insecure position (trapped between Russia and France) and wanted to redefine the European and global systems. Most of the conflicts in the first half of the twentieth century were about Germany’s status in Europe. While the times and places of wars couldn’t be forecast, the probability that there would be a war could be and was forecast by many Europeans.

The harder part of this equation would be forecasting that the wars would be so devastating and that after the first and second world wars were over, Europe would lose its empire. But there were those, particularly after the invention of dynamite, who predicted that war would now be catastrophic. If the forecasting on technology had been combined with the forecasting
on geopolitics, the shattering of Europe might well have been predicted. Certainly the rise of the United States and Russia was predicted in the nineteenth century. Both Alexis de Tocqueville and Friedrich Nietzsche forecast the preeminence of these two countries. So, standing at the beginning of the twentieth century, it would have been possible to forecast
its general outlines, with discipline and some luck.

the twenty-first century


Standing at the beginning of the twenty-first century, we need to identify the single pivotal event for this century, the equivalent of German unification for the twentieth century. After the debris of the European empire is cleared away, as well as what’s left of the Soviet Union, one power remains standing and overwhelmingly powerful. That power is the United States. Certainly, as is usually the case, the United States currently appears to be making a mess of things around the world. But it’s important not to be confused by the passing chaos. The United States is economically, militarily, and politically the most powerful country in the world, and there is no real challenger to that power. Like the Spanish-American War, a hundred years from now the war between the United States and the radical Islamists will be little remembered regardless of the prevailing sentiment of this time.

Ever since the Civil War, the United States has been on an extraordinary economic surge. It has turned from a marginal developing nation into an economy bigger than the next four countries combined. Militarily, it has gone from being an insignificant force to dominating the globe. Politically, the United States touches virtually everything, sometimes intentionally and sometimes simply because of its presence. As you read this book, it will seem that it is America- centric, written from an American point of view. That may be true, but the argument I’m making is that the world does, in fact, pivot around the United States.

This is not only due to American power. It also has to do with a fundamental shift in the way the world works. For the past five hundred years, Europe was the center of the international system, its empires creating a single global system for the first time in human history. The main highway to Europe was the North Atlantic. Whoever controlled the North Atlantic controlled access to Europe—and Europe’s access to the world. The basic geography of global politics was locked into place.

Then, in the early 1980s, something remarkable happened. For the first time in history, transpacific trade equaled transatlantic trade. With Europe reduced to a collection of secondary powers after World war II, and the shift in trade patterns, the North Atlantic was no longer the single key to anything. Now whatever country controlled both the North Atlantic and the Pacific could control, if it wished, the world’s trading system, and therefore the global economy. In the twenty-first century, any nation located on both oceans has a tremendous advantage.

Given the cost of building naval power and the huge cost of deploying it around the world, the power native to both oceans became the preeminent actor in the international system for the same reason that Britain dominated the nineteenth century: it lived on the sea it had to control. In this way, North America has replaced Europe as the center of gravity in the world, and whoever dominates North America is virtually assured of being the dominant global power. For the twenty-first century at least, that will be the United States.

The inherent power of the United States coupled with its geographic position makes the United States the pivotal actor of the twenty-first century. That certainly doesn’t make it loved. On the contrary, its power makes it feared. The history of the twenty-first century, therefore, particularly the first half, will revolve around two opposing struggles. One will be secondary powers forming coalitions to try to contain and control the United States. The second will be the United States acting preemptively to prevent an effective coalition from forming.

If we view the beginning of the twenty-first century as the dawn of the American Age (superseding the European Age), we see that it began with a group of Muslims seeking to re- create the Caliphate—the great Islamic empire that once ran from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Inevitably, they had to strike at the United States in an attempt to draw the world’s primary power into war, trying to demonstrate its weakness in order to trigger an Islamic uprising. The United States responded by invading the Islamic world. But its goal wasn’t victory. It wasn’t even clear what victory would mean. Its goal was simply to disrupt the Islamic world and set it against itself, so that an Islamic empire could not emerge.

The United States doesn’t need to win wars. It needs to simply disrupt things so the other side can’t build up sufficient strength to challenge it. On one level, the twenty-first century will see a series of confrontations involving lesser powers trying to build coalitions to control American behavior and the United States’ mounting military operations to disrupt them. The twenty-first century will see even more war than the twentieth century, but the wars will be much less catastrophic, because of both technological changes and the nature of the geopolitical challenge.

As we’ve seen, the changes that lead to the next era are always shockingly unexpected, and the first twenty years of this new century will be no exception. The U.S.–Islamist war is already ending and the next conflict is in sight. Russia is re-creating its old sphere of influence, and that sphere of influence will inevitably challenge the United States. The Russians will be moving westward on the great northern European plain. As Russia reconstructs its power, it will encounter the U.S.-dominated NATO in the three Baltic countries—Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania—as well as in Poland. There will be other points of friction in the early twenty-first century, but this new cold war will supply the flash points after the U.S.–Islamist war dies down.

The Russians can’t avoid trying to reassert power, and the United States can’t avoid trying to resist. But in the end Russia can’t win. Its deep internal problems, massively declining population, and poor infrastructure ultimately make Russia’s long- term survival prospects bleak. And the second cold war, less frightening and much less global than the first, will end as the first did, with the collapse of Russia.

There are many who predict that China is the next challenger to the United States, not Russia. I don’t agree with that view for three reasons. First, when you look at a map of China closely, you see that it is really a very isolated country physically. With Siberia in the north, the Himalayas and jungles to the south, and most of China’s population in the eastern part of the country, the Chinese aren’t going to easily expand. Second, China has not been a major naval power for centuries, and building a navy requires a long time not only to build ships but to create well-trained and experienced sailors.

Third, there is a deeper reason for not worrying about China. China is inherently unstable. Whenever it opens its borders to the outside world, the coastal region becomes prosperous, but the vast majority of Chinese in the interior remain impoverished. This leads to tension, conflict, and instability. It also leads to economic decisions made for political reasons, resulting in inefficiency and corruption. This is not the first time that China has opened itself to foreign trade, and it will not be the last time that it becomes unstable as a result. Nor will it be the last time that a figure like Mao emerges to close the country off from the outside, equalize the wealth—or poverty—and begin the cycle anew. There are some who believe that the trends of the last thirty years will continue indefinitely. I believe the Chinese cycle will move to its next and inevitable phase in the coming decade. Far from being a challenger, China is a country the United States will be trying to bolster and hold together as a counterweight to the Russians. Current Chinese economic dynamism does not translate into long-term success.

In the middle of the century, other powers will emerge, countries that aren’t thought of as great powers today, but that I expect will become more powerful and assertive over the next few decades. Three stand out in particular. The first is Japan. It’s the second- largest economy in the world and the most vulnerable, being highly dependent on the importation of raw materials, since it has almost none of its own. With a history of militarism, Japan will not remain the marginal pacifistic power it has been. It cannot. Its own deep population problems and abhorrence of large- scale immigration will force it to look for new workers in other countries. Japan’s vulnerabilities, which I’ve written about in the past and which the Japanese have managed better than I’ve expected up until this point, in the end will force a shift in policy.

Then there is Turkey, currently the seventeenth-largest economy in the world. Historically, when a major Islamic empire has emerged, it has been dominated by the Turks. The Ottomans collapsed at the end of World war I, leaving modern Turkey in its wake. But Turkey is a stable platform in the midst of chaos. The Balkans, the Caucasus, and the Arab world to the south are all unstable. As Turkey’s power grows—and its economy and military are already the most powerful in the region—so will Turkish influence.

Finally there is Poland. Poland hasn’t been a great power since the sixteenth century. But it once was—and, I think, will be again. Two factors make this possible. First will be the decline of Germany. Its economy is large and still growing, but it has lost the dynamism it has had for two centuries. In addition, its population is going to fall dramatically in the next fifty years, further undermining its economic power. Second, as the Russians press on the Poles from the east, the Germans won’t have an appetite for a third war with Russia. The United States, however, will back Poland, providing it with massive economic and technical support. Wars—when your country isn’t destroyed—stimulate economic growth, and Poland will become the leading power in a coalition of states facing the Russians.

Japan, Turkey, and Poland will each be facing a United States even more confident than it was after the second fall of the Soviet Union. That will be an explosive situation. As we will see during the course of this book, the relationships among these four countries will greatly affect the twenty-first century, leading, ultimately, to the next global war. This war will be fought differently from any in history—with weapons that are today in the realm of science fiction. But as I will try to outline, this mid-twenty-first century conflict will grow out of the dynamic forces born in the early part of the new century.

Tremendous technical advances will come out of this war, as they did out of World war II, and one of them will be especially critical. All sides will be looking for new forms of energy to substitute for hydrocarbons, for many obvious reasons. Solar power is theoretically the most efficient energy source on earth, but solar power requires massive arrays of receivers. Those receivers take up a lot of space on the earth’s surface and have many negative environmental impacts—not to mention being subject to the disruptive cycles of night and day. During the coming global war, however, concepts developed prior to the war for space- based electrical generation, beamed to earth in the form of microwave radiation, will be rapidly translated from prototype to reality. Getting a free ride on the back of military space launch capability, the new energy source will be underwritten in much the same way as the Internet or the railroads were, by government support. And that will kick off a massive economic boom.

But underlying all of this will be the single most important fact of the twenty-first century: the end of the population explosion. By 2050, advanced industrial countries will be losing population at a dramatic rate. By 2100, even the most underdeveloped countries will have reached birthrates that will stabilize their populations. The entire global system has been built since 1750 on the expectation of continually expanding populations. More workers, more consumers, more soldiers—this was always the expectation. In the twenty-first century, however, that will cease to be true. The entire system of production will shift. The shift will force the world into a greater dependence on technology—particularly robots that will substitute for human labor, and intensified genetic research (not so much for the purpose of extending life but to make people productive longer).

What will be the more immediate result of a shrinking world population? Quite simply, in the first half of the century, the population bust will create a major labor shortage in advanced industrial countries. Today, developed countries see the problem as keeping immigrants out. Later in the first half of the twenty-first century, the problem will be persuading them to come. Countries will go so far as to pay people to move there. This will include the United States, which will be competing for increasingly scarce immigrants and will be doing everything it can to induce Mexicans to come to the United States—an ironic but inevitable shift.

These changes will lead to the final crisis of the twenty-first century. Mexico currently is the fifteenth-largest economy in the world. As the Europeans slip out, the Mexicans, like the Turks, will rise in the rankings until by the late twenty-first century they will be one of the major economic powers in the world. During the great migration north encouraged by the United States, the population balance in the old Mexican Cession (that is, the areas of the United States taken from Mexico in the nineteenth century) will shift dramatically until much of the region is predominantly Mexican.

The social reality will be viewed by the Mexican government simply as rectification of historical defeats. By 2080 I expect there to be a serious confrontation between the United States and an increasingly powerful and assertive Mexico. That confrontation may well have unforeseen consequences for the United States, and will likely not end by 2100.

Much of what I’ve said here may seem pretty hard to fathom. The idea that the twenty-first century will culminate in a confrontation between Mexico and the United States is certainly hard to imagine in 2009, as is a powerful Turkey or Poland. But go back to the beginning of this chapter, when I described how the world looked at twenty-year intervals during the
twentieth century, and you can see what I’m driving at: common sense is the one thing that will certainly be wrong. Obviously, the more granular the description, the less reliable it gets. It is impossible to forecast precise details of a coming century—apart from the fact that I’ll be long dead by then and won’t know what mistakes I made.

But it’s my contention that it is indeed possible to see the broad outlines of what is going to happen, and to try to give it some definition, however speculative that definition might be. That’s what this book is about.



continued below

saladin
01-19-2009, 10:10 PM
Continued from above.


forecasting a hundred years ahead
Before I delve into any details of global wars, population trends, or technological shifts, it is important that I address my method—that is, precisely how I can forecast what I do. I don’t intend to be taken seriously on the details of the war in 2050 that I forecast. But I do want to be taken seriously in terms of how wars will be fought then, about the centrality of American power, about the likelihood of other countries challenging that power, and about some of the countries I think will—and won’t—challenge that power.

And doing that takes some justification. The idea of a U.S.–Mexican confrontation and even war will leave most reasonable people dubious, but I would like to demonstrate why and how these assertions can be made. One point I’ve already made is that reasonable people are incapable of anticipating the future. The old New Left slogan “Be Practical, Demand the Impossible” needs to be changed: “Be Practical, Expect the Impossible.” This idea is at the heart of my method. From another, more substantial perspective, this is called geopolitics.

Geopolitics is not simply a pretentious way of saying “international relations.” It is a method for thinking about the world and forecasting what will happen down the road. Economists talk about an invisible hand, in which the self-interested, short-term activities of people lead to what Adam Smith called “the wealth of nations.” Geopolitics applies the concept of the invisible hand to the behavior of nations and other international actors. The pursuit of short-term self-interest by nations and by their leaders leads, if not to the wealth of nations, then at least to predictable behavior and, therefore, the ability to forecast the shape of the future international system.

Geopolitics and economics both assume that the players are rational, at least in the sense of knowing their own short-term self-interest. As rational actors, reality provides them with limited choices. It is assumed that, on the whole, people and nations will pursue their self-interest, if not flawlessly, then at least not randomly. Think of a chess game. On the surface, it appears that each player has twenty potential opening moves. In fact, there are many fewer because most of these moves are so bad that they quickly lead to defeat. The better you are at chess, the more clearly you see your options, and the fewer moves there actually are available. The better the player, the more predictable the moves. The grandmaster plays with absolute predictable precision—until that one brilliant, unexpected stroke.

Nations behave the same way. The millions or hundreds of millions of people who make up a nation are constrained by reality. They generate leaders who would not become leaders if they were irrational. Climbing to the top of millions of people is not something fools often do. Leaders understand their menu of next moves and execute them, if not flawlessly, then at least pretty well. An occasional master will come along with a stunningly unexpected and successful move, but for the most part, the act of governance is simply executing the necessary and logical next step. When politicians run a country’s foreign policy, they operate the same way. If a leader dies and is replaced, another emerges and more likely than not continues what the first one was doing.

I am not arguing that political leaders are geniuses, scholars, or even gentlemen and ladies. Simply, political leaders know how to be leaders or they wouldn’t have emerged as such. It is the delight of all societies to belittle their political leaders, and leaders surely do make mistakes. But the mistakes they make, when carefully examined, are rarely stupid. More likely, mistakes are forced on them by circumstance. We would all like to believe that we— or our favorite candidate—would never have acted so stupidly. It is rarely true. Geopolitics therefore does not take the individual leader very seriously, any more than economics takes the individual businessman too seriously. Both are players who know how to manage a process but are not free to break the very rigid rules of their professions.

Politicians are therefore rarely free actors. Their actions are determined by circumstances, and public policy is a response to reality. Within narrow margins, political decisions can matter. But the most brilliant leader of Iceland will never turn it into a world power, while the stupidest leader of Rome at its height could not undermine Rome’s fundamental power. Geopolitics is not about the right and wrong of things, it is not about the virtues or vices of politicians, and it is not about foreign policy debates. Geopolitics is about broad impersonal forces that constrain nations and human beings and compel them to act in certain ways.

The key to understanding economics is accepting that there are always unintended consequences. Actions people take for their own good reasons have results they don’t envision or intend. The same is true with geopolitics. It is doubtful that the village of Rome, when it started its expansion in the seventh century BC, had a master plan for conquering the Mediterranean world five hundred years later. But the first action its inhabitants took against neighboring villages set in motion a process that was both constrained by reality and filled with unintended consequences. Rome wasn’t planned, and neither did it just happen.

Geopolitical forecasting, therefore, doesn’t assume that everything is predetermined. It does mean that what people think they are doing, what they hope to achieve, and what the final outcome is are not the same things. Nations and politicians pursue their immediate ends, as constrained by reality as a grandmaster is constrained by the chessboard, the pieces, and the rules. Sometimes they increase the power of the nation. Sometimes they lead the nation to catastrophe. It is rare that the final outcome will be what they initially intended to achieve.

Geopolitics assumes two things. First, it assumes that humans organize themselves into units larger than families, and that by doing this, they must engage in politics. It also assumes that humans have a natural loyalty to the things they were born into, the people and the places. Loyalty to a tribe, a city, or a nation is natural to people. In our time, national identity matters a great deal. Geopolitics teaches that the relationship between these nations is a vital dimension of human life, and that means that war is ubiquitous. Second, geopolitics assumes that the character of a nation is determined to a great extent by geography, as is the relationship between nations. We use the term geography broadly. It includes the physical characteristics of a location, but it goes beyond that to look at the effects of a place on individuals and communities. In antiquity, the difference between Sparta and Athens was the difference between a landlocked city and a maritime empire. Athens was wealthy and cosmopolitan, while Sparta was poor, provincial, and very tough. A Spartan was very different from an Athenian in both culture and politics.

If you understand those assumptions, then it is possible to think about large numbers of human beings, linked together through natural human bonds, constrained by geography, acting in certain ways. The United States is the United States and therefore must behave in a certain way. The same goes for Japan or Turkey or Mexico. When you drill down and see the forces that are shaping nations, you can see that the menu from which they choose is limited.

The twenty-first century will be like all other centuries. There will be wars, there will be poverty, there will be triumphs and defeats. There will be tragedy and good luck. People will go to work, make money, have children, fall in love, and come to hate. That is the one thing that is not cyclical. It is the permanent human condition. But the twenty-first century will be extraordinary in two senses: it will be the beginning of a new age, and it will see a new global power astride the world. That doesn’t happen very often. We are now in an America-centric age. To understand this age, we must understand the United States, not only because it is so powerful but because its culture will permeate the world and define it. Just as French culture and British culture were definitive during their times of power, so American culture, as young and barbaric as it is, will define the way the world thinks and lives. So studying the twenty-first century means studying the United States.

If there were only one argument I could make about the twenty-first century, it would be that the European Age has ended and that the North American Age has begun, and that North America will be dominated by the United States for the next hundred years. The events of the twenty-first century will pivot around the United States. That doesn’t guarantee that the United States is necessarily a just or moral regime. It certainly does not mean that America has yet developed a mature civilization. It does mean that in many ways the history of the United States will be the history of the twenty-first century.

Alpheus
01-19-2009, 10:15 PM
tldr.

No China? No India? But he includes Poland and Mexico?


The social reality will be viewed by the Mexican government simply as rectification of historical defeats. By 2080 I expect there to be a serious confrontation between the United States and an increasingly powerful and assertive Mexico. That confrontation may well have unforeseen consequences for the United States, and will likely not end by 2100.

Who does he think he is, a prophet or something?!? 2080!?! wtf is this guy smoking, I wouldn't even predict the Earth going around the Sun in 70 years!

saladin
01-19-2009, 10:15 PM
Here is an interview with him that summarizes his opinions:


http://www.trsavunma.com/resimler/2009/01/19/sncamqjq-start.jpghttp://www.trsavunma.com/resimler/2009/01/19/sncamqjq-mid.jpghttp://www.trsavunma.com/resimler/2009/01/19/sncamqjq-end.jpg
http://www.trsavunma.com/resimler/2009/01/19/sncamqjq-video.jpg (http://trsavunma.com//?q=node/37509)

Andromeda
01-19-2009, 10:24 PM
Is this guy for real? because this is seriously starting to sound like a tom clancy novel. lol

little icebear
01-19-2009, 10:31 PM
In his first draft, Friedman only stated, that the future will belong to Turkey, USA, Japan and Mexico. But someone reminded him that one should not dare to forget about Poland, so it was added to the list.

However, I for one welcome our new Turkish, Polish, Japanese, Mexican and - well, the not so new - American overlords.

And for our Indian and Chinese Friends I´d like to add: Ha! Ha! Didn´t see this one coming, did you?

Lazuris
01-19-2009, 11:23 PM
Stratfor has been on the money for many things. They are in Austin TX and are the American version of Jane's. You can't be right on everything but listen to what they say as it has had a history of panning out. Perhaps not to the full extent of the paper but to some degree.

Wojtop
01-19-2009, 11:47 PM
IMHO some people misunderstood the article. The guy is not writing about who will rule the world but about which coutries must be watched closely by the US in order to maintain American domination. Poland is a natural and historical enemy of Russia and counterbalance for Russians. Want to stop Russia in Europe - you need to support Poland. If Russia ever falls which i seriously doubt contrary to mr. Friedman Poland will be the main winner. Turkey is the key to the middle east. Japan is a potential danger in the Pacific. Mexico is deemed to grow thanks to cheap labour and access to US market - they may become a serious player in South America and need to be watched closely as well. Strategic location of these countries make tham a potential winner in the XXI century and a focus for US. IMHO the same reason can turn these countries into one bloody mess.

Herr Doctor
01-20-2009, 12:40 AM
IMHO some people misunderstood the article. The guy is not writing about who will rule the world but about which coutries must be watched closely by the US in order to maintain American domination.

I think you got the point right. The guy recently gave an interview to 'Rzeczpospolita' where he elaborates his point regarding Poland.
Being close to US Poland will be even able to get some territorial acquisitions... It sounds very sweet rofl

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,222924.html


No cóż, przewiduję, że ostatecznie Rosja nie wytrzyma rywalizacji z USA. Podczas gdy Polska będzie rosła w siłę, Rosja będzie słabnąć. Będzie borykała się z coraz poważniejszymi kłopotami wewnętrznymi. Demograficznymi, gospodarczymi i innymi. Ona może się wydawać teraz bardzo żywotna, ale to tylko pozory. Pod powierzchnią już występują te same objawy, które doprowadziły do upadku Związku Sowieckiego. A w obliczu załamania Rosji Polska może rzeczywiście skorzystać terytorialnie.

Ordie
01-20-2009, 01:18 AM
Stratfor has been on the money for many things. They are in Austin TX and are the American version of Jane's. You can't be right on everything but listen to what they say as it has had a history of panning out. Perhaps not to the full extent of the paper but to some degree.

They do a lot of security analysis for companies doing business in Mexico.

They've been accurate in regards to the Philippines and Venezuela. Middle East less so.

They are a source, but I do not depend on them as a single source.

The best intelligence one could gather from a specifc country is from a cabbie.

deli_dumrul
01-20-2009, 01:54 AM
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41-nfq85bYL._SS500_.jpg

Looks like around 2050 things will get interesting.

We have an unsettled business to take care of with the Poles anyway. I just can't wait we set up another rendezvous in Vienna. Until then, embrace for at least two "let's bash Poland" threads per week. It is on!

Holycrusader
01-20-2009, 02:26 AM
What a stupid thing to say Mr George Friedman?

My country do not have highways, train are slow, politicians live in the past.
Nope, Poland will not become the leading power in a coalition of states facing the Russians. We are more interested in our economy than in military competition...

Clearday-TRForce
01-20-2009, 02:27 AM
Review

“There is a temptation, when you are around George Friedman, to treat him like a Magic 8-Ball.”
—New York Times Magazine

“Barron’s consistently has found Stratfor’s insights informative and largely on the money—as has the company’s large client base, which ranges from corporations to media outlets and government agencies.”
—Barron’s

Praise for America’s Secret War

“Friedman … has a record of clear-eyed thinking. He has the unusual ability to view events through the eyes of not only American but also foreign leaders. There’s no posturing or rhetoric with Mr. Friedman: He approaches problems like a policymaker forced to select from an unappetizing menu of options … Since 9/11, there’s been a continuous flow of books on American foreign policy, terrorism, Iraq, and the Arab and Islamic worlds. Most are forgettable; few have the power and insight of George Friedman’s taut and smartly argued America’s Secret War.”
—New York Observer

“Most of us perhaps feel satiated by books on Iraq and the Middle East. Mr. Friedman’s work warrants the investment of an evening of careful reading.”
—Washington Times

“Friedman’s book is fascinating reading for those interested in more than simplistic arguments.”
—Flint Journal

“It delivers a clearer, deeper, and subtler understanding of the post-9/11 world than we will ever get from listening to the cacophony of talking heads on television.”
—Booklist

“One of the country’s leading strategic affairs experts.” —Lou Dobbs

Adux
01-20-2009, 02:45 AM
I for one agree with George Friedman when it comes to India and China. There is a long long way to go for them, before a statisfactory explanation for future prediction can be made!
As for Turkey, Poland, Japan and Mexico; all of them are pivots used for American influence, and not anything more!

Clearday-TRForce
01-20-2009, 02:53 AM
I for one agree with George Friedman when it comes to India and China. There is a long long way to go for them, before a statisfactory explanation for future prediction can be made!
As for Turkey, Poland, Japan and Mexico; all of them are pivots used for American influence, and not anything more!


surely, it is not true explanation,simple and quick reply to the book who has a reputation in USA politics and Fortune 500 companies. Turkey is a primary regional (caucasus,balkans,middle east) power,best military,best economy and a regime who respects the democracy adn many values.Japon is well known with their high technology and capacity. Mexico and Poland is a growing countries in their regions.

If you read the book carefully,you will understand Mexico or some is not a pivot of USA,but countries that USA must keep and take them in their side.

ren0312
01-20-2009, 03:07 AM
What about the Philippines, with a population of 90+ million, it has the potential to be a major power if and once it gets its economic house in order.

1curious
01-20-2009, 03:08 AM
I’ve been interested in Friedman’s views for years. He has an interesting concept that geography determines much of politics. This proved to be right and wrong. Therefore, many of his end of 20th century forecasts were flat out wrong. His book “The coming with Japan” was engaging and logical but proved completely wrong. Only 10-15 years ago he was theorizing that Japan will build some special alliance with India to challenge the US. Never happened. He also claims his analysis are apolitical and impartial. In many respects I found that to be true. However, it is impossible to miss his total obsession with Russia. To me, his persistent calls for containing Russia seem cold-war, ideological rather than the result of impartial analysis.

His highest predictive score has to do with short to medium term events and he is more than mediocre in anything over 20 years. Thus, he can be forgiven for dreaming.

All in all, I respect his views enough to subscribe to Stratfor.

Ordie
01-20-2009, 03:11 AM
What about the Philippines, with a population of 90+ million, it has the potential to be a major power if and once it gets its economic house in order.

That's only if the political and economic oligarchy is willing to give up power.

ren0312
01-20-2009, 03:14 AM
That's only if the political and economic oligarchy is willing to give up power.

No thanks I am in no mood the sing the Internationale.

Ordie
01-20-2009, 03:15 AM
No thanks I am in no mood the sing the Internationale.

Then your country will never be a powerhouse.

ren0312
01-20-2009, 03:18 AM
Then your country will never be a powerhouse.

What is the average size of a commercial farm in the United States?

Shadowstorm
01-20-2009, 03:29 AM
That's only if the political and economic oligarchy is willing to give up power.
Not with Arroyo having a last man standing dance contest and coups every six months along with a few major problems.

Clearday-TRForce
01-20-2009, 03:34 AM
The Next 100 Years: George Friedman
http://www.youtube.com/v/12eNAovkDTM&hl=en&fs=1

Ordie
01-20-2009, 03:38 AM
The Philippines has the right everything:

Educated workforce
English speaking
Abundant
Strategic location
Historical links with Europe and North America
Good relations with the world community
Then ask yourself: Why are Flipinos leaving their homeland in droves?

ren0312
01-20-2009, 03:43 AM
The Philippines has the right everything:

Educated workforce
English speaking
Abundant
Strategic location
Historical links with Europe and North America
Good relations with the world community
Then ask yourself: Why are Flipinos leaving their homeland in droves?


Considering that this country is ridicoulously overpopulated that may not such a bad thing, a country like France has the ideal population density, not too crowded and not too sparsely populated. All in all I will rather deal with underpopulation than with overpopulation.

Adux
01-20-2009, 03:44 AM
Wow, Turkey Best-Strong

Adux
01-20-2009, 03:49 AM
1curious,

Geography does determine power. How did British Navy make the world their own for nearly a century? Read the Great-Game, interesting, but I dont know wether in the 21st century one needs the same factors as the 18th and 19th century to employ power!

Switek
01-20-2009, 03:49 AM
Poland will become the leading power in a coalition of states facing the Russians.

FVCK! We must do the same job (defend walls of Christianity and western values) again and again... Are there any volunteers to replace us?

;)

Ordie
01-20-2009, 03:52 AM
Considering that this country is ridicoulously overpopulated that may not such a bad thing.

Out of the frying pan and into fire in places such as the Middle East where Filipinos are treated less than human.

The political oligarchy promotes people into leaving and separating from thier loved ones as a means to mitigate any discontent at home. On the same notion, the remittances and Balikbayan boxes sent from abroad placates the locals into not revolting. (It also contributes towards outside dependency).

Until there's real political reform within the Philippines, including the the break up of the oligarchy's hold on power and wealth, its will always be the sick man of Asia.

Clearday-TRForce
01-20-2009, 03:53 AM
Wow, Turkey Best-Strong

under-level comments by you...is not related to any book stuff.


FVCK! We must do the same job (defend walls of Christianity and western values) again and again... Are there any volunteers to replace us?

;)

I think "no"...:)

saladin
01-20-2009, 03:57 AM
I was one of the early stratfor subscribers (if I remember correctly, it was something in the $50 range for annual subscription, it may even be less). Later I decided that my student budget can't afford the subscription, and nowadays its $350 price makes the membership even less affordable. But over the years, I occasionally read their website and forums.

I agree with most people that overall Stratfor gives good analysis. Of course nobody can predict the next 100 years. However, the point is that he sees potential in those countries. In fact, in my opinion, his views fit well with another academic (Turkey as regional hegemon--2014: strategic implications for the United States by EDWARD ERICKSON).


I don't like current Turkish Prime minister, but I can say that every passing day he is approaching more to the middle eastern countries. I don't think the words he said recently about Gazza were only for Turkish voters but also for Arabic ears. We can see that Syria is already becoming more and more close to Turkey. Gulf money started to come to Turkey. Like it or not, most of the things in Iraq turns the way Turks wanted. Turkish cultural influence is also started to be shown in Arabic countries (just look at their TVs). Same is true for Azerbaijan or Iran. Turkish state tv is starting to broadcast in several regional languages, including armenian, persian, arabic and kurdish. 151 votes for UN security council shows that those countries believe that Turkey can help in these fractured times.Just yesterday, the primeminister was talking for European parlimentarians and reminded them, if the energy talks as part of EU membership did not started, Turkey would stop Nabucco project, leaving Europe to Russians. I'm sure we will see in a few months energy talks will start.

So I wouldn't be surprised in 20-30 years, Turkey's influences increases more. From military perspective, there is an unbelievable jump in the technology in the last few years. The recent indigenous projects gave more confidence, and within a few years, we will hear more about them.

Adux
01-20-2009, 03:58 AM
Clearday,

Without the expansion of territory there is no way Turkey, or any of the other small nations can be world-beaters, simply : NO strategic depth!

I have doubts wether Arabia influences Turkey or the other way around! If it is the former, it is quite regressive for a nation as advanced as turkey! Religion is what is used Arabia to extent their influence in Turkey!

Ordie
01-20-2009, 04:06 AM
Clearday,

Without the expansion of territory there is no way Turkey, or any of the other small nations can be world-beaters, simply : NO strategic depth!

What about Singapore?

Ulytau
01-20-2009, 04:06 AM
FVCK! We must do the same job (defend walls of Christianity and western values) again and again... Are there any volunteers to replace us?

;)

I will support your air force with my flying carpets for more potato bro rofl:hug:

Adux soon if you start to write ''India über alles'' it wont going to surprise for me..

You just tryin to show yourself expert bout;

Religion

History

World Politics

Military

etc. etc. and etc.


What about Singapore?Also Israel,Baltic countries and Switzerland too

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 04:10 AM
Stratfor is first and foremost a profit-oriented project.

Its silly to discuss whether Friedman really believes this nonsense he says, since his main objective is to stirr controversy and thus gain publicity, not to honestly give a well-weighed prediction. And he's excellent at that.

1curious
01-20-2009, 04:14 AM
1curious,

Geography does determine power.

Geography influences power, not determines it.

If any determinant of power could be weight apportioned, it's the strength of one's economy should be the primary variable that in turn could lead to military and commercial leverages if other variables, including geography, allow it.

The strength of Friedman's forecasts is his crisp, logical thinking.

The weakness is his complete unaccountability for subjective factors, such as whim and biases of historical personalities who will have happened to rule at the time and the reactionary/responsive (rather than pre-planned) actions of most politicians. They, the politicians, more often respond to random circumstances out of their control, rather than preordain them. Unfortunately, RATIONALITY is NOT the most used decision making practice in politics. Quite the opposite often.

Snoshi
01-20-2009, 04:14 AM
Well.. I am not sure about the "Russia" articles, but i like their Middle East once.

click
01-20-2009, 04:25 AM
Interesting read.

POLAND STRONG !!!1!1!!1

ViktorNavorski
01-20-2009, 04:27 AM
What's up with the "Friedman" and their world-view-uber-ness...Thomas Friedman, George Friedman, Milton Friedman...etc...

Switek
01-20-2009, 04:27 AM
...

POLAND STRONG !!!1!1!!1


http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7962/notthisagainck7.jpg

Snoshi
01-20-2009, 04:29 AM
What's up with the "Friedman" and their world-view-uber-ness...Thomas Friedman, George Friedman, Milton Friedman...etc...

Jews etc.. :)

click
01-20-2009, 04:34 AM
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7962/notthisagainck7.jpg

LOL, I hope you know I was kidding :hug:

Switek
01-20-2009, 04:36 AM
LOL, I hope you know I was kidding :hug:

I know you were but can't say for others... p-)

Clearday-TRForce
01-20-2009, 04:41 AM
I was one of the early stratfor subscribers (if I remember correctly, it was something in the $50 range for annual subscription, it may even be less). Later I decided that my student budget can't afford the subscription, and nowadays its $350 price makes the membership even less affordable. But over the years, I occasionally read their website and forums.

I agree with most people that overall Stratfor gives good analysis. Of course nobody can predict the next 100 years. However, the point is that he sees potential in those countries. In fact, in my opinion, his views fit well with another academic (Turkey as regional hegemon--2014: strategic implications for the United States by EDWARD ERICKSON).


I don't like current Turkish Prime minister, but I can say that every passing day he is approaching more to the middle eastern countries. I don't think the words he said recently about Gazza were only for Turkish voters but also for Arabic ears. We can see that Syria is already becoming more and more close to Turkey. Gulf money started to come to Turkey. Like it or not, most of the things in Iraq turns the way Turks wanted. Turkish cultural influence is also started to be shown in Arabic countries (just look at their TVs). Same is true for Azerbaijan or Iran. Turkish state tv is starting to broadcast in several regional languages, including armenian, persian, arabic and kurdish. 151 votes for UN security council shows that those countries believe that Turkey can help in these fractured times.Just yesterday, the primeminister was talking for European parlimentarians and reminded them, if the energy talks as part of EU membership did not started, Turkey would stop Nabucco project, leaving Europe to Russians. I'm sure we will see in a few months energy talks will start.

So I wouldn't be surprised in 20-30 years, Turkey's influences increases more. From military perspective, there is an unbelievable jump in the technology in the last few years. The recent indigenous projects gave more confidence, and within a few years, we will hear more about them.



As you told there are some critical articles continuesly coming from USA strategic institutions about Turkey and its influence. Clearly,we can communicate and deal with Iran,Israel,Usa,Hamas,Syria,EU,Africans...at the same time. Could you give me an another example in that position? Could you give me another example that produce stealth tech military vessels with indigeneous fire control and other systems in the middle east,balkans and caucasus etc...? Could you give me an another example who has democratical rules,modern country with no religious backgrounded,laws in the same area? could you give me an another example who has critical codes as a foreign country in the world who take it from USA in their AEWs and in other military projects etc...?

I know maybe you do not want to see in that position due to some politics and self interests. If the cap fits,wear it! but I advise you to make hay while the sun shines and what one fears always happens...

Turkey is the key country in all these regions, you can see or using blind way what you want to see...therefore there is no need to promote ourself, I do not need too...the way that we go is what you work for as our history. It is a nature of this country.

Snoshi
01-20-2009, 04:45 AM
^^ I can name some

Also no disrespect to Turkey but so far its indigenous military projects are more or less like India's. Most of the weapons are still imported.

Clearday-TRForce
01-20-2009, 04:53 AM
Dear Snoshi,

I respect you, but you forget a point that book is related to next 100 years ,not today. By the way,we as Turks clearly see some great improvements,developments in indigineous projects not like past 50 years here. It is not all case...politics,influence due to historical tights...system,regime...many things that you must consider to give a decision. Maybe you can not see them as we see...Normal...


And this book is not related to onlt Turkey, what about Mexico?

let me check from the paragraphs;


These changes will lead to the final crisis of the twenty-first century. Mexico currently is the fifteenth-largest economy in the world. As the Europeans slip out, the Mexicans, like the Turks, will rise in the rankings until by the late twenty-first century they will be one of the major economic powers in the world. During the great migration north encouraged by the United States, the population balance in the old Mexican Cession (that is, the areas of the United States taken from Mexico in the nineteenth century) will shift dramatically until much of the region is predominantly Mexican.

The social reality will be viewed by the Mexican government simply as rectification of historical defeats. By 2080 I expect there to be a serious confrontation between the United States and an increasingly powerful and assertive Mexico. That confrontation may well have unforeseen consequences for the United States, and will likely not end by 2100.

Ordie
01-20-2009, 05:08 AM
^^^
Perhaps it has started.
Carlos Slim, Mexican billionare, is making a move to purchase the NY Times.

After two generations, grandchildren of immigrant to the US are fully assimilated and mixed in with the general population.

I doubt retro-cession of the Western US will ever occur.

Now Canada is another matter.....

Shadowstorm
01-20-2009, 05:16 AM
I’ve been interested in Friedman’s views for years. He has an interesting concept that geography determines much of politics. This proved to be right and wrong. Therefore, many of his end of 20th century forecasts were flat out wrong. His book “The coming with Japan” was engaging and logical but proved completely wrong. Only 10-15 years ago he was theorizing that Japan will build some special alliance with India to challenge the US. Never happened. He also claims his analysis are apolitical and impartial. In many respects I found that to be true. However, it is impossible to miss his total obsession with Russia. To me, his persistent calls for containing Russia seem cold-war, ideological rather than the result of impartial analysis.

His highest predictive score has to do with short to medium term events and he is more than mediocre in anything over 20 years. Thus, he can be forgiven for dreaming.

All in all, I respect his views enough to subscribe to Stratfor.
How ironic, Fage post something like this in India ABM thread a couple days ago. The post said India is looking to Japan and the U.S to counter China while Friedman said; that Japan is looking India to counter the U.S. A majority of people in the United States still think Russia is a threat to us and the same is probably with a majority of people in Russia who still thinks United States is a threat to them. Here is Fage's thread about India's ABM.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=149834

~~~~
01-20-2009, 05:40 AM
Default Stratfor's CEO: 21. Century Belongs to Turkey, USA, Poland, Japan and Mexico

that must be a joke... at least when it comes to Poland.

Arbody
01-20-2009, 06:01 AM
FVCK! We must do the same job (defend walls of Christianity and western values) again and again... Are there any volunteers to replace us?

;)
Switek it's well known thing that is better to be behind the wall than "wall of Christianity defending west from evil barbarians from the east p-)

in polish

"Polska od wieków była przedmurzem zachodniej cywilizacji a każdy wie że lepiej jest być za murem niż przed "

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 06:07 AM
Dear Snoshi,

I respect you, but you forget a point that book is related to next 100 years ,not today. By the way,we as Turks clearly see some great improvements,developments in indigineous projects not like past 50 years here. It is not all case...politics,influence due to historical tights...system,regime...many things that you must consider to give a decision. Maybe you can not see them as we see...Normal...


And this book is not related to onlt Turkey, what about Mexico?

let me check from the paragraphs;

Do you think, that Turkey will remain a secular state in the XXIst century?

As far as I can see, rediscovering Islamic roots is a current trend among Turkish intellectuals.

Flamming_Python
01-20-2009, 07:05 AM
IMHO some people misunderstood the article. The guy is not writing about who will rule the world but about which coutries must be watched closely by the US in order to maintain American domination. Poland is a natural and historical enemy of Russia and counterbalance for Russians. Want to stop Russia in Europe - you need to support Poland. If Russia ever falls which i seriously doubt contrary to mr. Friedman Poland will be the main winner. Turkey is the key to the middle east. Japan is a potential danger in the Pacific. Mexico is deemed to grow thanks to cheap labour and access to US market - they may become a serious player in South America and need to be watched closely as well. Strategic location of these countries make tham a potential winner in the XXI century and a focus for US. IMHO the same reason can turn these countries into one bloody mess.

Poland was the counterbalance for Russia several hundred years ago. If you want to stop Russia, the US is going to have to do itself; no small European country will have the capability.


I for one agree with George Friedman when it comes to India and China. There is a long long way to go for them, before a statisfactory explanation for future prediction can be made!
As for Turkey, Poland, Japan and Mexico; all of them are pivots used for American influence, and not anything more!

Japan can potentially go its own way, no doubts about that. Turkey and Poland are what I call 'sponsored empires'. To have any chance of success of becoming regional leaders and keeping rivals (i.e. Russia) out of their areas, they must rely heavily on, receive assistance from and keep within the wider sphere of influence of the USA and other Western allies. I don't even know what Mexico is doing here.

Overall, a ridiculous article.


FVCK! We must do the same job (defend walls of Christianity and western values) again and again... Are there any volunteers to replace us?

;)

It's about time; you guys do the same job over and over only to be stabbed in the back by your allies and then come to England to work as plumbers and builders p-)

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 07:43 AM
Switek it's well known thing that is better to be behind the wall than "wall of Christianity defending west from evil barbarians from the east p-)
"

Christianity doesnt have walls
only doors

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 07:46 AM
Dear Snoshi,

I respect you, but you forget a point that book is related to next 100 years ,not today. By the way,we as Turks clearly see some great improvements,developments in indigineous projects not like past 50 years here. It is not all case...politics,influence due to historical tights...system,regime...many things that you must consider to give a decision. Maybe you can not see them as we see...Normal...


And this book is not related to onlt Turkey, what about Mexico?

let me check from the paragraphs;

Are you so excited because Turkey was given a share of greatness?

zg18
01-20-2009, 07:53 AM
The Russians can’t avoid trying to reassert power, and the United States can’t avoid trying to resist.True


But in the end Russia can’t winIn reasserting power in FSU? It's already winning if there is any competition.


Its deep internal problems, massively declining population, and poor infrastructure ultimately make Russia’s long- term survival prospects bleak.This guy slept last 10 years ,not taking into account recent changes in Russia , not even recent rather quick demographic recovery and investment in infrastructure.


And the second cold war, less frightening and much less global than the first, will end as the first did, with the collapse of Russia.I have a feeling that he actually wants cold war, i think that he actually thinks USSR=Russia...

And i should take this "analysis" for real? To much BS and wish full thinking.

Russian_dude
01-20-2009, 08:01 AM
Surely a joke.

Poland? What is this... the twilight zone? No offence to Polish brothers, but Poland is a political midget, economically too AND will also face declining population.

Turkey? It's just a large population. Also will face a lot of internal instability due to secularism/islam rift, a future Kurdish state on it's border etc.

Mexico? It's about to be declared a failed state.


Countries that MIGHT increase in importance a lot...

United Korea, Brazil, Iran (compared to where it is now, not others.)

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 08:29 AM
True

In reasserting power in FSU? It's already winning if there is any competition.



check out the number of countries who backed abkhazia
u'd be surprised

Switek
01-20-2009, 08:31 AM
Surely a joke.

Poland? What is this... the twilight zone? No offence to Polish brothers, but Poland is a political midget, economically too AND will also face declining population.

Political meaning does not depend on the size but many others factors. One are border zones between world powers. In this light during Cold War West Berlin or Austria played important political role.

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 08:34 AM
Political meaning does not depend on the size but many others factors. One are border zones between world powers. In this light during Cold War West Berlin or Austria played important political role.

Austria? Never.

I believe, the author emphasized the importance of it more than of some buffer

Arbody
01-20-2009, 08:36 AM
Austria? Never.

I believe, the author emphasized the importance of it more than of some buffer

ok I know that you hate Putin but wtf you want from kangoorous? :bash:

Russian_dude
01-20-2009, 08:37 AM
Political meaning does not depend on the size but many others factors. One are border zones between world powers. In this light during Cold War West Berlin or Austria played important political role.

So Finlad will too be an important political player? BTW, Poland does not have borders with Russia.

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 08:38 AM
ok I know that you hate Putin but wtf you want from kangoorous? :bash:

what?

,.....

Doublethinker
01-20-2009, 08:39 AM
So Finlad will too be an important political player? BTW, Poland does not have borders with Russia.

lol, it does.

kaliningrad, mate...

Arbody
01-20-2009, 08:45 AM
what?

,.....
I know what is your problem , lack of humor cheers

Try&die
01-20-2009, 08:50 AM
Turkey? It's just a large population. Also will face a lot of internal instability due to secularism/islam rift, a future Kurdish state on it's border etc.



It is strange how some people talk about things, while they don't know the 'inside' story about it..

A lot of internal instability..? come on now, that is the foreign media which is blowing things up. Ofcourse there are some issues, but not that huge as some people/media tell.

And for the 'future kurdish state', there never will be one. You and I know exactly that if Turkey was given the opportunity, they will go into Iraq and settle some stuff ;). If you mean the PKK, they are not blown away from the world, because they are used for training for the army and as a excuse to invade Iraq(this one is my opinion:p).

For the people that say Turkey depends on the USA, yes that is correct. But you must not forget that the USA depends on Turkey as well..
Turkey can put pressure on the USA big time in some cases( Bring us Abdullah Ocalan;) )

ting
01-20-2009, 08:56 AM
I usually don`t put much into stratfor. They are too focused on the millitary/conflict side of things to be able to predict much in the future. Also They are children of the US and hence are subject to that countries cultural biases and myths. IMHO they are a group of advanced armchair General(like many of us), but who have managed to make money from it.

Friedmans ideas seem to be based on the role the ocean plays and has played. That is fine, however he has not understood that global warming has an effect, and that you in this century will have a navigable arctic ocean. IMHO that means fail in the basis for his world view. He argues of the importance on the oceans, but fails to see that there is a new ocean becoming available for trade and transit.:cantbeli:

He also focuses on the importance of countries in the border areas were he expects there to be conflict. Why Poland? Why not Belarus, Ukraine or Romania? Is the Baltic sea so important? I don`t get it. It could be he expects Belarus and Ukraine to be swallowed by Russia. For Russia to be the threat he imagines it to be, it would have to. If that were to happen Russia would be even more unstable than it is now, and hence certainly not a very long lasting threat to other "power constellations".

Here is my take on the countries.
Poland: Will be a stabilizing factor in Eastern Europe, it will not however exert negative force towards it`s neighbors. It will in time provide realism in the EU towards relations with Russia and help stabilize relations with it. Poland will also help stabilize Ukraine and Belarus(structurally, economically and diplomatically).

Mexico:
He has gone bananas with his two ocean theory. Mexico will never be a military threat to the US. The two countries are to intertwined.

Japan:
Japan will in time develop expeditionary forces, however these will be used to ensure the stability of it`s sources of raw materials. This will happen in cooperation with China and Korea. And will serve to aid other power constellations in subduing instability.

Turkey:
As for Turkey, I think he makes more sense here, probably since it`s geography is so important. I believe Turkey will be a stabilizing factor in the middle east and the Caucasus. However it will first need to deal with it`s own problems. Most pressing here is the peaceful integration of the Kurds into the society and removing the influence of the army while at the same time remaining secular.

Turkey will be a member of the EU. The EU`s expansion is based on economy first and second geography. The economic argument will triumph over the geographic one which IMHO really is not that problematic in regards to Turkey. Things like Greek animosity will be muted by a peaceful solution to the Cyprus thingy. And the anti-Islamic voice in Europe with it`s inherent racist tendencies will subside.


None of the countries mentioned above will become super powers. They will however become regional stabilizing factors that in cooperation with other countries will have military power to measure up to the US. They will however have no will or inclination to do so.

The USA:
I think the US will again be more multinational in it`s policies. It will not be as dominant as before, however it will still be the single most important country in the 21st century. It will however be dependent on other power constellations to get anything done.

India:
Adux will become president of India. He will in the first week of office Attack Pakistan and China. However due to the incompetence of the Indian military complex this will be catastrophic. The result is the break up of India, and it`s neighboring countries being forced by the world community to assist in nurturing the differing states to some sort of stability.

Adux's real name will forever be synonymous with "war mongering idiot"
I hope I am wrong about the India part.p-)

Try&die
01-20-2009, 08:58 AM
India:
Adux will become president of India. He will in the first week of office Attack Pakistan and India. However due to the incompetence of the Indian military complex this will be catastrophic. The result is the break up of India, and it`s neighboring countries being forced by the world community to assist in nurturing the differing states to some sort of stability.

Adux's real name will forever be synonymous with "war mongering idiot"
I hope I am wrong about the India part.p-)

Hhahahah,

+1 for this one.

Deman
01-20-2009, 10:28 AM
And the anti-Islamic voice in Europe with it`s inherent racist tendencies will subside.
Enjoy new Mogadishu (Oslo) normanen. rofl

ggk
01-20-2009, 10:45 AM
Clearday,

Without the expansion of territory there is no way Turkey, or any of the other small nations can be world-beaters, simply : NO strategic depth!

!

why would anyone want to be a world beater Adux, just because india wants to be a superpower by invading Afganistan (this is acording to you theory of 'world beaters expansion of territory theory') doesnt mean Turkey want to be like that.



I have doubts wether Arabia influences Turkey or the other way around! If it is the former, it is quite regressive for a nation as advanced as turkey! Religion is what is used Arabia to extent their influence in Turkey

what the heck are you talking about? Arabia extend their influence in Turkey? Which airyfairy history books did you refer to.


India:
Adux will become president of India. He will in the first week of office Attack Pakistan and China. However due to the incompetence of the Indian military complex this will be catastrophic. The result is the break up of India, and it`s neighboring countries being forced by the world community to assist in nurturing the differing states to some sort of stability.

Adux's real name will forever be synonymous with "war mongering idiot"
I hope I am wrong about the India part.p-)

if Adux become president of India, he will not attack pakistan first. Infact the first thing he will do is buy mp.net from Hood thus making Hood rich as hell, and then he will permaban me, for eternity....after that he will attack Pakistan.

Adux
01-20-2009, 10:57 AM
why would anyone want to be a world beater Adux, just because india wants to be a superpower by invading Afganistan (this is acording to you theory of 'world beaters expansion of territory theory') doesnt mean Turkey want to be like that.

Its called Strategic Depth, do google.




what the heck are you talking about? Arabia extend their influence in Turkey? Which airyfairy history books did you refer to.

As long as Mecca and Medina is in Arabia, and there is a kingdom there, the influence in the current & future will be from Arabia to Turkey, that is regressive




if Adux become president of India, he will not attack pakistan first. Infact the first thing he will do is buy mp.net from Hood thus making Hood rich as hell, and then he will permaban me, for eternity....after that he will attack Pakistan.

Na, I got better things to do than go after little people like you!!:roll:

Adux
01-20-2009, 10:59 AM
India:
Adux will become president of India. He will in the first week of office Attack Pakistan and China. However due to the incompetence of the Indian military complex this will be catastrophic. The result is the break up of India, and it`s neighboring countries being forced by the world community to assist in nurturing the differing states to some sort of stability.

Adux's real name will forever be synonymous with "war mongering idiot"
I hope I am wrong about the India part.p-)

We have a Commie in our midst!

daily666
01-20-2009, 12:16 PM
Damn, in this case he could have forgotten Poland.

daily666
01-20-2009, 12:20 PM
ok I know that you hate Putin but wtf you want from kangoorous? :bash:

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00477/Josef_Fritzl_280_477364a.jpg

chris450
01-20-2009, 12:52 PM
lol entertaining article..i also recommend this

http://www.amazon.com/Stratfor Tur.-Book/dp/0439136369 (http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Prisoner-Azkaban-Book/dp/0439136369)

Ordie
01-20-2009, 01:41 PM
As long as Mecca and Medina is in Arabia, and there is a kingdom there, the influence in the current & future will be from Arabia to Turkey, that is regressive.

Adux,

You are giving the Muslim fundamentalist vision too much credit.

Ever since the Fall of Baghdad in 1258 to the Mongols, no Arab / Muslim Caliphite was ever to rise again. Much of it is the result of constant fraticide and in-fighting.

Adux
01-20-2009, 01:52 PM
Adux,

You are giving the Muslim fundamentalist vision too much credit.

Ever since the Fall of Baghdad in 1258 to the Mongols, no Arab / Muslim Caliphite was ever to rise again. Much of it is the result of constant fraticide and in-fighting.

Which with a stable goverment as it is today, and the west's need for stability whatever maybe the statusquo or consequence, does make it a muslim fundamentalist dream!

gazell
01-20-2009, 04:01 PM
Friedmans ideas seem to be based on the role the ocean plays and has played. That is fine, however he has not understood that global warming has an effect, and that you in this century will have a navigable arctic ocean. IMHO that means fail in the basis for his world view. He argues of the importance on the oceans, but fails to see that there is a new ocean becoming available for trade and transit.:cantbeli:


All sorts of these futuristic ideas come out, none seems to account for GW in any way, so all are crap for a start from there on. Granted, we do not too much know in detail, what's going to happen in that respect, but for sure, countries with resources that there is going to be a fight for for sure - like Russia -, are going to be in the first grade of power.

Ordie
01-20-2009, 05:09 PM
Which with a stable goverment as it is today, and the west's need for stability whatever maybe the statusquo or consequence, does make it a muslim fundamentalist dream!

Incorrect...
Its the opposite.

Terrorists and fundamentalist thrive in areas that are considered failed states or in isolated areas with high poverty levels, a disfunctional society divided by conflict, and where the government institutions are weak or non-existant. Imagine terrorist as fish in the pond.

To fight the terrorist effectively, you need to "drain the pond" by expanding the development grid of communications, social services and education as a means to create lesser dependency upon the terrorist and more on the central government.

Your proposal to wipe out Pakistan is penny wise and pound foolish in that it will only create a massive watershed for the terrorist and fundamentalist.

eugenlitwin
01-20-2009, 07:01 PM
Surely a joke.

Poland? What is this... the twilight zone? No offence to Polish brothers, but Poland is a political midget, economically too AND will also face declining population.

Turkey? It's just a large population. Also will face a lot of internal instability due to secularism/islam rift, a future Kurdish state on it's border etc.

Mexico? It's about to be declared a failed state.


Countries that MIGHT increase in importance a lot...

United Korea, Brazil, Iran (compared to where it is now, not others.)

this part looks far more realistic then stratfor s article

spider1
01-20-2009, 07:05 PM
surely, it is not true explanation,simple and quick reply to the book who has a reputation in USA politics and Fortune 500 companies. Turkey is a primary regional (caucasus,balkans,middle east) power,best military,best economy and a regime who respects the democracy adn many values.Japon is well known with their high technology and capacity. Mexico and Poland is a growing countries in their regions.

If you read the book carefully,you will understand Mexico or some is not a pivot of USA,but countries that USA must keep and take them in their side.
Heheh Tureky is not stronger then Israel militarily and dont forget that israel is a nuclear power but on other aspects you are stronger you have ties with all the countries and also you are richer but israel is the the only country that is free in the middle east(human rights and political rights)

Adux
01-20-2009, 10:44 PM
Incorrect...
Its the opposite.

Terrorists and fundamentalist thrive in areas that are considered failed states or in isolated areas with high poverty levels, a disfunctional society divided by conflict, and where the government institutions are weak or non-existant. Imagine terrorist as fish in the pond.

To fight the terrorist effectively, you need to "drain the pond" by expanding the development grid of communications, social services and education as a means to create lesser dependency upon the terrorist and more on the central government.

Your proposal to wipe out Pakistan is penny wise and pound foolish in that it will only create a massive watershed for the terrorist and fundamentalist.


Ordie,

Couple of points in your post is irrefutable and true. But you assume a scenario where the state machinary doenst support terrorism, and use it as a tool to implement foriegn policy. With a powerful central government with such a intent is far more dangerous than any somalia type situation.

Clearday-TRForce
01-21-2009, 03:49 AM
Heheh Tureky is not stronger then Israel militarily and dont forget that israel is a nuclear power but on other aspects you are stronger you have ties with all the countries and also you are richer but israel is the the only country that is free in the middle east(human rights and political rights)


hardly imagine...israel (as a independent state? or a state of USA?) is surely not at better side. How can you compare 6-7 mls Israel with 80 mls Turkey (+ 10 in EU,+100 in Asia) in all specs?

Man, you kill us...thanks.

spider1
01-21-2009, 04:00 AM
hardly imagine...israel (as a independent state? or a state of USA?) is surely not at better side. How can you compare 6-7 mls Israel with 80 mls Turkey (+ 10 in EU,+100 in Asia) in all specs?

Man, you kill us...thanks.

Well you have some advantage because you are much more bigger but as i said we have nukes everyone knows that so theoreticaly we can wipe you out not only you all the middle east i think if its right that we have around 200 nukes and btw israel is a big export of weapons(4/5 biggest in the world) we sell your country stuff like drones and other things but after the comments of erdogan on gaza i think we need to stop and we know what turkey did to do armenians so he needs to shut the **** up and why he didnt said something before when they fired 8 years rockets on israel

Holycrusader
01-21-2009, 04:16 AM
Well you have some advantage because you are much more bigger but as i said we have nukes everyone knows that so theoreticaly we can wipe you out not only you all the middle east i think if its right that we have around 200 nukes and btw israel is a big export of weapons(4/5 biggest in the world) we sell your country stuff like drones and other things but after the comments of erdogan on gaza i think we need to stop and we know what turkey did to do armenians so he needs to shut the **** up and why he didnt said something before when they fired 8 years rockets on israel

If you have such funny signs on your keybord like those ;:.,() - please use them...

ggk
01-21-2009, 07:35 AM
Well you have some advantage because you are much more bigger but as i said we have nukes everyone knows that so theoreticaly we can wipe you out not only you all the middle east i think if its right that we have around 200 nukes and btw israel is a big export of weapons(4/5 biggest in the world) we sell your country stuff like drones and other things but after the comments of erdogan on gaza i think we need to stop and we know what turkey did to do armenians so he needs to shut the **** up and why he didnt said something before when they fired 8 years rockets on israel

oh the horror!

Flamming_Python
01-21-2009, 09:48 AM
hardly imagine...israel (as a independent state? or a state of USA?) is surely not at better side. How can you compare 6-7 mls Israel with 80 mls Turkey (+ 10 in EU,+100 in Asia) in all specs?

Man, you kill us...thanks.

I love how the Turks keep trying to group all Turkic-language people into one big imaginary country. Those +10 in EU, +100 in Asia won't count for nothing for a Turkey that's at war.

That's like me saying that Russia has a mobilization pool of 300 mil ppl in war time because there are 300 mil Slavs in the world p-)

Turkey is powerful enough with its 80 million people and million man army to take on Israel (only conventionally though) and all of its immediate neighbours; no need to bring BS into the equation.

spider1
01-21-2009, 09:48 AM
oh the horror!
lol i only said about our capabilities thats all because he thinks turkey is stronger in everything the region

spider1
01-21-2009, 09:50 AM
I love how the Turks keep trying to group all Turkic-language people into one big imaginary country. Those +10 in EU, +100 in Asia won't count for nothing for a Turkey that's at war.

That's like me saying that Russia has a mobilization pool of 300 mil ppl in war time because there are 300 mil Slavs in the world p-)

Turkey is powerful enough with its 80 million people to take on Israel (only conventionally though) and all of its immediate neighbours; no need to bring BS into the equation.
Also egypt has around 80 million and what? it helped them in a conventional war?